Whether you are an atheist or some kind of True Believer, it is interesting to consider the question of whether Reason should come out on top in any debate over Faith.

Atheists like to argue that religions are based on unprovable beliefs. Some of course ARE straight out mythology. Whereas, they argue, the rational human is equipped with intelligence and the ability to reason, therefore able to come to more satisfactory conclusions about the mysteries of life.

However, it can be questioned whether homo sapiens is all that rational at all. He has the ability to reason  - some more than others - but does he always use it?
When you look at history, you don't find much there to make you excited about man's rationality. Many of the same mistakes get made over and over. Our rationality is clouded by our emotions and various other things.

Well, the atheist may say, that doesn't matter. We have had so many gifted thinkers - Bertrand Russell, Maynard Keynes, Voltaire etc etc etc - we can draw on a synthesis of all that thought to find the answers we seek.

Another leap of faith? Only this time in the thinking of your chosen guru?

Humans are humans, not little logical computers.

It's our flaws that are a vital part of our humanity

Anyone that 'thinks' (ie, Homo Sapiens), that because we put our trousers on of a morning makes us less then the animals we truly are, has a serious problem with comprehension.

When humanity truly becomes humane, the world will have no problems.

Before being human, we are monkeys.

Observe monkey nature and you will identify the commonality of our (Freudian) id.

We are capable (and often enjoy) being petty, self-interested, scrappy, deceiving, spiteful and vengeful - Like baboons or macaques.

We rise above these primal drives through those multitude of faculties that make us human... The greatest being our unparalleled capacity for reason and, the next (through our insatiable need to know) the ability to construct grand abstract metaphors intended to explain the inexplicable and to externalise their constructs as incontrovertible fact, in other words, we create religion.

And so great is our need to instantly understand the unknown or reveal the mysterious on demand that (in our defence of those grand abstract metaphors that 'explain' the inexplicable) we become petty, self-interested, scrappy, deceiving, spiteful and vengeful - Like baboons or macaques.

Is it truly a case of reason vs faith though?

Can't one be reasonably faithful, or for that matter, have faith in their reasonableness?

Phemanderac wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2014 at 5:03pm:

Is it truly a case of reason vs faith though? Can't one be reasonably faithful, or for that matter, have faith in their reasonableness?

Bingo, you've hit the nail on the head perfectly.

Humans are dual beings. We all have aspects of good and evil. There is another duality that exists, which is in our minds -- the left side of the brain is all about logic and reason, while the right is where our creative side comes from, for instance fantasies, art, etc. Artists in whatever kind of art: musicians, painters, writers tend to use this side of the brain. I believe this is where faith belongs as well.
Many people have blind faith in their religions regardless of what science can disprove of it. But the same can actually happen when the roles are reversed.
The problem with logic/reason is that often if you can't prove something using scientific methods, it's either a fairy tale or it is chucked on the backburner and ignored.
You can't prove that God exists, but you can't disprove it either.
It's like the question, "was there an ancient advanced civilisation that existed long before humans and even dinosaurs?"
This question was asked to Egyptologists, who, because of their logic-inclined minds, dispute the idea. If you are familiar with the pyramid story is that they were built using accurate mathematics and was perfectly shaped as a result of this, although all of the stones used to build it were different shapes and sizes. On Easter island a similar thing happened, as well as in Peru. It was put down to "coincidence" that all of these separate civilizations had similar knowledge that was far too advanced for its time.
It is also said that the great pyramid of Giza was built in just 20 years with a chisel and rock, when even in this age of technology they would have trouble completing it in 20 years.
For more information on this watch the documentary "Revelation of the pyramids".

Another example is that years before scientific knowledge could prove that the earth was not flat but a sphere, the idea was laughed at. People who echoed that were called nutters.
I believe that in order for science, a product based mainly on logic and reason, to advance is with faith. I'm not saying that you need to believe in God to advance science, but you need to believe in the possibility of something that wouldn't be considered normal or accurate.
The same goes for faith, because the danger of blind faith is that you can misinterpret a spiritual doctrine or belief in any way you want, which has dangerous consequences. An example of this is extremism, think ISIS -- they believe they are instruments of Allah who are doing his bidding by destroying all of those who don't believe.
This is where you need to apply reason.
So basically, we have dual opposites who cannot exist without the other. A balance of sorts. 

Humans beings are 'conflicted' beings.

We all want to be good.          ........99.99999999 % of us ?

But we don't know how to, not be evil.

To be virtuous, 100% of the time, is not 'in us'.



God can heal us.

But do we want to be healed ?

Or, are we 'happy', to continue to pursue our own agendas ?




Myself, i want to go home!

God cannot heal you unless you, yourself, want to be healed.

Reason cannot explain itself. It starts as the divine spark and cannot reason itself past that.

Freedumb wrote on Sep 1^st, 2014 at 9:19pm:

God cannot heal you unless you, yourself, want to be healed.

If you are damaged, of course you would want to be healed. BTW, who says that GOD can't heal anyone he chooses? you?

GOD, CAN DO ANYTHING.

If you are damaged (in spiritual terms) you have to work at healing yourself, you can't mope around and play the pity me card and keep on praying to God for spiritual healing, some effort is required for the self.

Gryphon49 wrote on Sep 8^th, 2014 at 11:12pm:

Freedumb wrote on Sep 1st, 2014 at 9:19pm: God cannot heal you unless you, yourself, want to be healed. If you are damaged, of course you would want to be healed. BTW, who says that GOD can't heal anyone he chooses? you? GOD, CAN DO ANYTHING.

God helps those who help themselves

Raven wrote on Sep 10^th, 2014 at 5:51pm:

Gryphon49 wrote on Sep 8th, 2014 at 11:12pm: Freedumb wrote on Sep 1st, 2014 at 9:19pm: God cannot heal you unless you, yourself, want to be healed. If you are damaged, of course you would want to be healed. BTW, who says that GOD can't heal anyone he chooses? you? GOD, CAN DO ANYTHING. God helps those who help themselves

Exactly.

God DOES help those that help themselves, it is a 50/50 partnership (not always that percentage though).

People complain when something terrible happens to a family member, a friend or something on a global scale and BLAME GOD but, when everything is running hunky dorey, no one wants GOD to interfere? GOD isn't there for OUR convenience.

bogarde73 wrote on Jul 21^st, 2014 at 11:46am:

When you look at history, you don't find much there to make you excited about man's rationality.

This statement reads as cynicism, or merely a crass generalisation. Please clarify.

.
"“For two centuries the greatest scientists in the world tried to come up with an experiment that would measure that motion of the earth around the sun, that everyone almost knew was obviously occurring,” explained Delano. “But paradoxically, for two centuries every one of these experiments that tried to measure this universally assumed motion of the Earth around the Sun kept returning a value of zero for the motion of the earth, and this became a really big issue in science.”


"Einstein, puzzled by the failure of every experiment to measure the universally assumed motion of the Earth around the Sun, searched for a reason to explain why this could not be measured. The result? Einstein’s famous Theory of Relativity. Shockingly, Einstein maintained that absolute motion cannot be detected by any optical experiment as no particular frame of reference is absolute. In other words, the physics works just as well to have the Earth at the centre with the Sun going around, as to have the Sun at the centre with the Earth going around"


"... the results of three separate missions, starting with the WMAP satellite in 2001, has shown anomalies in the background radiation which are aligned directly with the plane of our solar system and the equator of the Earth. This never-before-seen alignment of the Earth results in an axis through the universe, which scientists have dubbed the ‘Axis of Evil’, owing to the shocking implications for current models of the cosmos"


"Cosmologists, astrophysicists, and others initially brushed off the strange finding as an artifact, and dozens of papers and reports followed trying to address the anomaly. But when the Planck results returned in March 2013, the alignment showed up in yet even higher resolution and detail, and has now been replicated across three separate missions, suggesting there is something more than an ‘artifact’ that is going on here. “The thing that has really launched the media hysteria about our film, is that we are pulling the covers off the dirty little secret that not only is there structure, that structure is related in astonishing ways to one and precisely one location in the universe, and it happens to be us,” said Delano.


http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-evolution-human-origins-human-origins-science/radical-new-documentary-claims-copernicus-and



We are the centre of the universe ?

Science is sheeting itself ?

Athiests too ?

No, it isnt sheeting itself.

.
"While most of us today assume that our brilliant scientific minds, space exploration programs, and high-tech telescopes and equipment have long since proven that the Earth orbits the sun ----- no experimental evidence has ever been obtained that unequivocally proves this to be true.


Says it all

http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff467/Carshotts/39196126ETP.jpg