(ABC news)

The recession just got a bit closer still, potentially a bit deeper and longer.

I don’t blame the govt for sacking the BHP workers, but with all these numerous large retrenchments having the govt ram through an unfair Budget that attacks only those on low income is a sure fire way to create a recession, especially with the private sector still so indebted.

And recessions see Budget deficits increase.

A mob of clowns led by a monkey!

Gee that carbon and mining tax is taking its toll.... :(

Mining tax still minimal, carbon tax not huge on iron ore miners.

Defend everything the bunch of clowns do, eh, never, ever try to think for yourself.

Swagman wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 3:45pm:

Gee that carbon and mining tax is taking its toll.... :(

Well considering BOTH are due to be scrapped why would BHP be doing this now???
Wouldn't it have made more sense to retrench these workers when those costs were implemented if in fact they are the reason?

But hey push your barrow anyone with half a brain knows that construction phases of large mining projects are coming to a close & just as when your local pollie tells you that a new road will translate into 2000 local jobs, what he means is 1950 casual jobs during construction & 50 outsourced jobs upon completion.
If you're lucky the 50 outsourced will go to a local business or franchise.

BHP has an excess of staff & they are getting rid of them.
Just as they sacked the most during the GFC.
This idea that miners are benevolent employers focused on community & environment as well as profit is crap.

The price of iron ore has crashed.

But don't worry Tony reckons he's the best friend the workers ever had.


BHP looks to cut thousands of jobs from its iron ore division in WA

The ABC understands up to 3,000 jobs could go from BHP's iron ore division, which currently employs 16,000 people.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-24/bhp-confirms-job-losses/5545820

Yup, the construction phase of mining has ended so lots more miners will get the sack.

As I said, just when the bunch of clown are bringing in a Budget that punishes those with not much of an income—recession 90% likely now I reckon.

Just be grateful that Kevie, Johnnie, Julia, Tony, Petie (part of the Abbott and Costello team), and so forth are all recession-proof in their riches and retirement plan....

The poor will just have to rise up and eat the rich...... or maybe we could sell tickets to the Hunger Games for real....

I fully expect that this Mining crash and the collapse of the car industry will lead to Gov' statistics showing a decrease in unemployment of course, they'll have "created" more than enough "new jobs" to absorb all these workers, you can bet on that!
Wonderful things, statistics, they can solve all our problems overnight!  :o

Swagman wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 3:45pm:

Gee that carbon and mining tax is taking its toll.... :(

Provide some actual evidence.

You don't cut that many jobs unless you have a good reason - as in the work just is not there.

They are mostly contractors whose contracts are up, so the part of the project they were on is probably finished for now.

St George of the Garden wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 3:43pm:

(ABC news) The recession just got a bit closer still, potentially a bit deeper and longer. I don’t blame the govt for sacking the BHP workers, but with all these numerous large retrenchments having the govt ram through an unfair Budget that attacks only those on low income is a sure fire way to create a recession, especially with the private sector still so indebted. And recessions see Budget deficits increase. A mob of clowns led by a monkey!

You're stupid beyond belief! Since when has the govt owned BHP? It's the only way the govt could sack those workers.

Kytro wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 4:55pm:

Swagman wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 3:45pm: Gee that carbon and mining tax is taking its toll.... :( Provide some actual evidence.

3000 BHP workers sacked

Yes, this has been happening and is why the govt is stupid to bring in the Budget they did.

Now it seems the iron ore price is dropping so BHP (can Rio be far behind?) accelerated the reduction of their workforce.

Half the stupid Budget won’t get passed the Senate anyway.

Swagman wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 6:13pm:

Kytro wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 4:55pm: Swagman wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 3:45pm: Gee that carbon and mining tax is taking its toll.... :( Provide some actual evidence. 3000 BHP workers sacked

yes, that fine is someone wants evidece of people being sacked ... but that was not what was asked for ... try again! :D :D

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 6:07pm:

St George of the Garden wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 3:43pm: (ABC news) The recession just got a bit closer still, potentially a bit deeper and longer. I don’t blame the govt for sacking the BHP workers, but with all these numerous large retrenchments having the govt ram through an unfair Budget that attacks only those on low income is a sure fire way to create a recession, especially with the private sector still so indebted. And recessions see Budget deficits increase. A mob of clowns led by a monkey! You're stupid beyond belief! Since when has the govt owned BHP? It's the only way the govt could sack those workers.

Should report you for personal abuse but I won’t.

I will merely say you are blind. I SAID I don’t blame the govt. A visit to the optometrist is indicated.

St George of the Garden wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 6:43pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 6:07pm: St George of the Garden wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 3:43pm: (ABC news) The recession just got a bit closer still, potentially a bit deeper and longer. I don’t blame the govt for sacking the BHP workers, but with all these numerous large retrenchments having the govt ram through an unfair Budget that attacks only those on low income is a sure fire way to create a recession, especially with the private sector still so indebted. And recessions see Budget deficits increase. A mob of clowns led by a monkey! You're stupid beyond belief! Since when has the govt owned BHP? It's the only way the govt could sack those workers. Should report you for personal abuse but I won’t. I will merely say you are blind. I SAID I don’t blame the govt. A visit to the optometrist is indicated.

What you said implied that the government COULD sack those workers!  ::)

St George of the Garden wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 3:43pm:

(ABC news) The recession just got a bit closer still, potentially a bit deeper and longer. I don’t blame the govt for sacking the BHP workers, but with all these numerous large retrenchments having the govt ram through an unfair Budget that attacks only those on low income is a sure fire way to create a recession, especially with the private sector still so indebted. And recessions see Budget deficits increase. A mob of clowns led by a monkey!

3000 BHP workers sacked
Today at 3:43pm [highlight]

[highlight]If you not be a liar,  cut and paste or provide link.

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 6:52pm:

St George of the Garden wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 6:43pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 6:07pm: St George of the Garden wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 3:43pm: (ABC news) The recession just got a bit closer still, potentially a bit deeper and longer. I don’t blame the govt for sacking the BHP workers, but with all these numerous large retrenchments having the govt ram through an unfair Budget that attacks only those on low income is a sure fire way to create a recession, especially with the private sector still so indebted. And recessions see Budget deficits increase. A mob of clowns led by a monkey! You're stupid beyond belief! Since when has the govt owned BHP? It's the only way the govt could sack those workers. Should report you for personal abuse but I won’t. I will merely say you are blind. I SAID I don’t blame the govt. A visit to the optometrist is indicated. What you said implied that the government COULD sack those workers!  ::)

Not in context of the whole post.

John Smith wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 6:23pm:

Swagman wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 6:13pm: Kytro wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 4:55pm: Swagman wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 3:45pm: Gee that carbon and mining tax is taking its toll.... :( Provide some actual evidence. 3000 BHP workers sacked yes, that fine is someone wants evidece of people being sacked ... but that was not what was asked for ... try again! :D :D

ok 3000 BHP workers sacked because of the carbon and mining taxes

I sold a lot of equipment to mining companies that were going to send it to Africa on mining projects.
This was Australian companies with Australian investors investing in Africa after the carbon tax was introduced.
These would have been projects in Australia.

Swagman wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 6:13pm:

Kytro wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 4:55pm: Swagman wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 3:45pm: Gee that carbon and mining tax is taking its toll.... :( Provide some actual evidence. 3000 BHP workers sacked

You realise that isn't how evidence works. You can't just choose a thing that is occurring and say it is the cause.

Raining today, rain causes 3000 workers to be sacked.

Kytro wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 8:46pm:

You can't just choose a thing that is occurring and say it is the cause.

Like CO2 concentrations and climate change you mean?

Swagman wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 8:51pm:

Kytro wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 8:46pm: You can't just choose a thing that is occurring and say it is the cause. Like CO2 concentrations and climate change you mean?

Yes, like that. You can't just say it is the cause. You need evidence, which exists in abundance.

Price of iron ore has crashed and China is looking at a down turn.

Swagman wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 8:03pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 6:23pm: Swagman wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 6:13pm: Kytro wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 4:55pm: Swagman wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 3:45pm: Gee that carbon and mining tax is taking its toll.... :( Provide some actual evidence. 3000 BHP workers sacked yes, that fine is someone wants evidece of people being sacked ... but that was not what was asked for ... try again! :D :D ok 3000 BHP workers sacked because of the carbon and mining taxes

see that's where you go wrong ...

you simply making a claim does not in any reality constitute  evidence ...

John Smith wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 9:01pm:

Swagman wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 8:03pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 6:23pm: Swagman wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 6:13pm: Kytro wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 4:55pm: Swagman wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 3:45pm: Gee that carbon and mining tax is taking its toll.... :( Provide some actual evidence. 3000 BHP workers sacked yes, that fine is someone wants evidece of people being sacked ... but that was not what was asked for ... try again! :D :D ok 3000 BHP workers sacked because of the carbon and mining taxes see that's where you go wrong ... you simply making a claim does not in any reality constitute  evidence ...

....so I need a few graphs and schitt huh?  :D

http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2012/03/11/1226296/385363-120312-b-mining.jpg

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/mining-energy/gillard-taxes-blamed-as-mining-capital-is-driven-offshore/story-e6frg9df-1226296407777#


Quote:

AUSTRALIA'S global share of the capital raised for mining projects has sunk from 21 per cent to 15 per cent since 2008 as other countries such as Russia, India and China attracted tens of billions of dollars in additional funding.    The fresh data prompted one mining lobby group to claim the difficulties being experienced by miners in raising equity capital were being fuelled by investor uncertainty over the Gillard government's mining and carbon taxes. The figures, which were compiled by research firm Intierra and the Association of Mining and Exploration Companies, show that the value of capital raisings in Australia increased slightly from $4.3 billion to $4.5bn between 2008 and 2011. But in the same period, the value of capital raisings rose strongly in Africa (up 26 per cent), Canada (up 31 per cent), South America (up 59 per cent) and the rest of the world (up 78 per cent). The latter category comprises Europe and Asia, including countries with fast-growing mining sectors such as China, India, Indonesia, Russia and Spain. That region now boasts 45 per cent of the total capital raised for mining projects. AMEC national policy manager Graham Short said the data proved federal and state governments had to recognise Australia must become more competitive in attracting investment. He said Australia must examine its public policy settings, including its environmental approvals system and tax regimes When you look at the numbers, this really highlights that we are not the only country in the world with minerals," he said. "We have extreme concerns with things like the mining tax and carbon tax." The figures come after ASX chief executive Elmer Funke Kupper said last week the exchange planned to relax its capital raising rules in a bid to become more competitive with global bourses, including Toronto. Many small mining and exploration companies rely on equity raisings as their only source of funding because they do not generate revenue and are unable to access bank lending. During a visit to Perth to speak to mining industry bosses, Mr Funke Kupper said other markets allowed a company to raise up to 25 per cent of its capital base in one hit without seeking shareholder approval, but in Australia the limit was 15 per cent. "We have to make sure our capital raising rules are tailored for the industries we are trying to grow here, and mining needs money to fund exploration." The study shows that Africa's share of the total capital raised for minerals projects fell from 17 per cent to 15 per cent between 2008 and 2011, while Canada's declined from 16 per cent to 14 per cent and South America increased its share from 8 per cent to 9 per cent. Australia's share of total capital raised fell from 21 per cent to 15 per cent during that period. Mr Short said a recent survey of global mining executives by Canada's Fraser Institute showed no Australian jurisdiction was ranked in the global top 10 for its investment climate.

Swagman wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 9:23pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 9:01pm: Swagman wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 8:03pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 6:23pm: Swagman wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 6:13pm: Kytro wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 4:55pm: Swagman wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 3:45pm: Gee that carbon and mining tax is taking its toll.... :( Provide some actual evidence. 3000 BHP workers sacked yes, that fine is someone wants evidece of people being sacked ... but that was not what was asked for ... try again! :D :D ok 3000 BHP workers sacked because of the carbon and mining taxes see that's where you go wrong ... you simply making a claim does not in any reality constitute  evidence ... ....so I need a few graphs and schitt huh?  :D http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2012/03/11/1226296/385363-120312-b-mining.jpg http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/mining-energy/gillard-taxes-blamed-as-mining-capital-is-driven-offshore/story-e6frg9df-1226296407777# Quote: AUSTRALIA'S global share of the capital raised for mining projects has sunk from 21 per cent to 15 per cent since 2008 as other countries such as Russia, India and China attracted tens of billions of dollars in additional funding.    The fresh data prompted one mining lobby group to claim the difficulties being experienced by miners in raising equity capital were being fuelled by investor uncertainty over the Gillard government's mining and carbon taxes. The figures, which were compiled by research firm Intierra and the Association of Mining and Exploration Companies, show that the value of capital raisings in Australia increased slightly from $4.3 billion to $4.5bn between 2008 and 2011. But in the same period, the value of capital raisings rose strongly in Africa (up 26 per cent), Canada (up 31 per cent), South America (up 59 per cent) and the rest of the world (up 78 per cent). The latter category comprises Europe and Asia, including countries with fast-growing mining sectors such as China, India, Indonesia, Russia and Spain. That region now boasts 45 per cent of the total capital raised for mining projects. AMEC national policy manager Graham Short said the data proved federal and state governments had to recognise Australia must become more competitive in attracting investment. He said Australia must examine its public policy settings, including its environmental approvals system and tax regimes When you look at the numbers, this really highlights that we are not the only country in the world with minerals," he said. "We have extreme concerns with things like the mining tax and carbon tax." The figures come after ASX chief executive Elmer Funke Kupper said last week the exchange planned to relax its capital raising rules in a bid to become more competitive with global bourses, including Toronto. Many small mining and exploration companies rely on equity raisings as their only source of funding because they do not generate revenue and are unable to access bank lending. During a visit to Perth to speak to mining industry bosses, Mr Funke Kupper said other markets allowed a company to raise up to 25 per cent of its capital base in one hit without seeking shareholder approval, but in Australia the limit was 15 per cent. "We have to make sure our capital raising rules are tailored for the industries we are trying to grow here, and mining needs money to fund exploration." The study shows that Africa's share of the total capital raised for minerals projects fell from 17 per cent to 15 per cent between 2008 and 2011, while Canada's declined from 16 per cent to 14 per cent and South America increased its share from 8 per cent to 9 per cent. Australia's share of total capital raised fell from 21 per cent to 15 per cent during that period. Mr Short said a recent survey of global mining executives by Canada's Fraser Institute showed no Australian jurisdiction was ranked in the global top 10 for its investment climate.

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

thats all you've got? a totally unrelated graph?

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

lately you've been getting into the armpit realms .... just make a comment, any comment, and hope everyone will believe it  ;D ;D ;D

That the construction phase of WA iron ore mines is about over has been common knowledge for months, so blaming the carbon tax etc really is entering Armpitt territory.

In view of this, in view of declines in confidence the shambles put together the very measures that will cause a recession. Pack of clowns!

John Smith wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 9:29pm:

a totally unrelated graph?

I knew it would be too complex for you Smithy   :D

DaS Energy wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 7:05pm:

St George of the Garden wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 3:43pm: (ABC news) The recession just got a bit closer still, potentially a bit deeper and longer. I don’t blame the govt for sacking the BHP workers, but with all these numerous large retrenchments having the govt ram through an unfair Budget that attacks only those on low income is a sure fire way to create a recession, especially with the private sector still so indebted. And recessions see Budget deficits increase. A mob of clowns led by a monkey! 3000 BHP workers sacked Today at 3:43pm [highlight] [highlight]If you not be a liar,  cut and paste or provide link.

See Reply #4 on page 1

BHP looks to cut thousands of jobs from its iron ore division in WA

The ABC understands up to 3,000 jobs could go from BHP's iron ore division, which currently employs 16,000 people.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-24/bhp-confirms-job-losses/5545820

Swagman wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 10:10pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 9:29pm: a totally unrelated graph? I knew it would be too complex for you Smithy   :D

try again Swag .....this attempt was pathetic :D :D :D

John Smith wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 8:27am:

Swagman wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 10:10pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 9:29pm: a totally unrelated graph? I knew it would be too complex for you Smithy   :D try again Swag .....this attempt was pathetic :D :D :D

Ok

The graphs represent a decline in the level of capital raising in Australia compared to other places in the world for mining ventures.

Mining ventures are very risky / speculative business propositions.  They require huge amounts of upfront 'capital' and a hefty punt on future commodity prices and mining outcomes.

The incentive to provide risk capital is the possibility of striking it very rich or generating huge profits for your investors (the people that risk their hard earned cash) at the end of the day.  Not unlike the tens of thousands of fortune hunters that risked all to venture to the 19th century gold fields in search of the mother lode.

Like the miners that took up arms at Eureka because they were being shagged by the Govt's mining taxes, propspective mining investors are / have been put off risking their hard earned cash by the Labor Govt's super profit mining tax.

The graphs support this argument due to the fact that the decline in capital raising spans the speculation and the introduction of Labor's mining tax.

How about that?  ;)

Swagman wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 9:58am:

John Smith wrote on Jun 25th, 2014 at 8:27am: Swagman wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 10:10pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 9:29pm: a totally unrelated graph? I knew it would be too complex for you Smithy   :D try again Swag .....this attempt was pathetic :D :D :D Ok The graphs represent a decline in the level of capital raising in Australia compared to other places in the world for mining ventures. Mining ventures are very risky / speculative business propositions.  They require huge amounts of upfront 'capital' and a hefty punt on future commodity prices and mining outcomes. The incentive to provide risk capital is the possibility of striking it very rich or generating huge profits for your investors (the people that risk their hard earned cash) at the end of the day.  Not unlike the tens of thousands of fortune hunters that risked all to venture to the 19th century gold fields in search of the mother lode. Like the miners that took up arms at Eureka because they were being shagged by the Govt's mining taxes, propspective mining investors are / have been put off risking their hard earned cash by the Labor Govt's super profit mining tax. The graphs support this argument due to the fact that the decline in capital raising spans the speculation and the introduction of Labor's mining tax. How about that?  ;)

see now your just making the facts suit your argument ... naughty boy

there is nothing there to indicate that any reduction in anything is because of the mining tax ....

your graph also shows a decline in percentage terms in south America and Canada ... was that also because of labors mining tax?

another point to add ... you said yourself that mining require huge amounts of 'upfront' capital ... Australia has gone beyond the upfront stage of the cycle and moving into the production stage.

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Swagman wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 9:58am:

The graphs represent a decline in the level of capital raising in Australia compared to other places in the world for mining ventures. Mining ventures are very risky / speculative business propositions.  They require huge amounts of upfront 'capital' and a hefty punt on future commodity prices and mining outcomes. The incentive to provide risk capital is the possibility of striking it very rich or generating huge profits for your investors (the people that risk their hard earned cash) at the end of the day.  Not unlike the tens of thousands of fortune hunters that risked all to venture to the 19th century gold fields in search of the mother lode. Like the miners that took up arms at Eureka because they were being shagged by the Govt's mining taxes, propspective mining investors are / have been put off risking their hard earned cash by the Labor Govt's super profit mining tax. The graphs support this argument due to the fact that the decline in capital raising spans the speculation and the introduction of Labor's mining tax. How about that?  ;)

An interesting hypothesis, but hardly strong evidence. There is no controlling for confounding factors, no isolation of the taxation regimes impact on overall profitability, no consideration of   other market forces.

In order to show that it was due to tax, short of a statement from BHP saying "it's because of the tax" you would need show that these particular costs were a deciding or at very least considerable factor, something that hasn't been done.

The iron ore market is declining, is it really so surprising that they would scale back that division?

The positive thing about mineral resources is at least they are not going anywhere. At some point people will want them, and pay for access.

Last time BHP put off workers, Tony said it was because of the mining tax, to his embarrassment BHP came out and said that it had nothing to do with the mining tax.

I wonder when someone will ask BHP the very same question this time.

Swagman wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 9:58am:

John Smith wrote on Jun 25th, 2014 at 8:27am: Swagman wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 10:10pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 9:29pm: a totally unrelated graph? I knew it would be too complex for you Smithy   :D try again Swag .....this attempt was pathetic :D :D :D Ok The graphs represent a decline in the level of capital raising in Australia compared to other places in the world for mining ventures. Mining ventures are very risky / speculative business propositions.  They require huge amounts of upfront 'capital' and a hefty punt on future commodity prices and mining outcomes. The incentive to provide risk capital is the possibility of striking it very rich or generating huge profits for your investors (the people that risk their hard earned cash) at the end of the day.  Not unlike the tens of thousands of fortune hunters that risked all to venture to the 19th century gold fields in search of the mother lode. Like the miners that took up arms at Eureka because they were being shagged by the Govt's mining taxes, propspective mining investors are / have been put off risking their hard earned cash by the Labor Govt's super profit mining tax. The graphs support this argument due to the fact that the decline in capital raising spans the speculation and the introduction of Labor's mining tax. How about that?  ;)

Probably more to do with the high Aussie dollar. The miners have about finished their massive investment in their mines, don’t look like moving.

John Smith wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 9:01pm:

Swagman wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 8:03pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 6:23pm: Swagman wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 6:13pm: Kytro wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 4:55pm: Swagman wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 3:45pm: Gee that carbon and mining tax is taking its toll.... :( Provide some actual evidence. 3000 BHP workers sacked yes, that fine is someone wants evidece of people being sacked ... but that was not what was asked for ... try again! :D :D ok 3000 BHP workers sacked because of the carbon and mining taxes see that's where you go wrong ... you simply making a claim does not in any reality constitute  evidence ...

Remember that next time you feel the urge to call Abbott a woman basher. Practice what you preach, Johnny Boy!!!

Kytro wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 10:24am:

Swagman wrote on Jun 25th, 2014 at 9:58am: The graphs represent a decline in the level of capital raising in Australia compared to other places in the world for mining ventures. Mining ventures are very risky / speculative business propositions.  They require huge amounts of upfront 'capital' and a hefty punt on future commodity prices and mining outcomes. The incentive to provide risk capital is the possibility of striking it very rich or generating huge profits for your investors (the people that risk their hard earned cash) at the end of the day.  Not unlike the tens of thousands of fortune hunters that risked all to venture to the 19th century gold fields in search of the mother lode. Like the miners that took up arms at Eureka because they were being shagged by the Govt's mining taxes, propspective mining investors are / have been put off risking their hard earned cash by the Labor Govt's super profit mining tax. The graphs support this argument due to the fact that the decline in capital raising spans the speculation and the introduction of Labor's mining tax. How about that?  ;) An interesting hypothesis, but hardly strong evidence. There is no controlling for confounding factors, no isolation of the taxation regimes impact on overall profitability, no consideration of   other market forces. In order to show that it was due to tax, short of a statement from BHP saying "it's because of the tax" you would need show that these particular costs were a deciding or at very least considerable factor, something that hasn't been done. The iron ore market is declining, is it really so surprising that they would scale back that division? The positive thing about mineral resources is at least they are not going anywhere. At some point people will want them, and pay for access.

Kytro wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 10:24am:

There is no controlling for confounding factors, no isolation of the taxation regimes impact on overall profitability, no consideration of   other market forces.

But there is a control, for example the capital raising decline was more pronounced in Aust compared to the other mining venture areas..  These other mining ventures were subject to the same global competition and economic factors as the Australian ventures other than Labor's super profit tax.

This supports a conclusion that potential mining investors bypassed the Australian market in preference of the lower taxing regimes.

The effect of taxation on the desire to purchase / invest is well documented.

Labor uses the carbon tax for example in an attempt to influence operating costs in an attempt to reduce CO2 emissions?

Labor increased the Alcho-pop tax significantly in an attempt to reduce binge drinking by pimply teenagers.

Therefore it is a totally reasonable analysis that Labor by introducing an additional tax on successful mining ventures (in addition to normal company profit) reduced the desire for potential mining investors to provide capital and the ability of mining companies to raise capital. 

The tax was a disincentive and a major factor in the declining number of Australian mining jobs being experienced currently and my statement that the mining and carbon taxes are 'taking their toll'.  :-?

Swagman wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 1:03pm:

But there is a control, for example the capital raising decline was more pronounced in Aust compared to the other mining venture areas..  These other mining ventures were subject to the same global competition and economic factors as the Australian ventures other than Labor's super profit tax. This supports a conclusion that potential mining investors bypassed the Australian market in preference of the lower taxing regimes. The effect of taxation on the desire to purchase / invest is well documented. Labor uses the carbon tax for example in an attempt to influence operating costs in an attempt to reduce CO2 emissions?

Global conditions from place to place. In one area the end of a conflict, or one starting can alter how attractive it is. If prices are high, then it worth a more costly extraction, but if they are low, it is better to hold off until they recover.

You have made no demonstration that taxation was the principle reason for these jobs being lost. You have suggested it, but show no calculations, no ruling out other factors.

Why you have is a hypothesis, and speculation. I don't expect you go into detail because it's very time consuming, but you also shouldn't have made the claim without it. YOu think it is to blame, perhaps, but not out of any careful analysis, just out of intuition.


Swagman wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 1:03pm:

Labor increased the Alcho-pop tax significantly in an attempt to reduce binge drinking by pimply teenagers.

Which didn't work


Swagman wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 1:03pm:

Therefore it is a totally reasonable analysis that Labor by introducing an additional tax on successful mining ventures (in addition to normal company profit) reduced the desire for potential mining investors to provide capital and the ability of mining companies to raise capital.

It only applied to particularly profitable ventures.


Swagman wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 1:03pm:

The tax was a disincentive and a major factor in the declining number of Australian mining jobs being experienced currently and my statement that the mining and carbon taxes are 'taking their toll'.  :-?

Disincentive, given, major factor speculative.

Kytro wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 1:24pm:

You have made no demonstration that taxation was the principle reason for these jobs being lost.

I didn't say it was the principal reason just commented in Reply # 1


Swagman wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 3:45pm:

Gee that carbon and mining tax is taking its toll.... :(

......and they have

Swagman wrote on Jun 26^th, 2014 at 9:44am:

Kytro wrote on Jun 25th, 2014 at 1:24pm: You have made no demonstration that taxation was the principle reason for these jobs being lost. I didn't say it was the principal reason just commented in Reply # 1 Swagman wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 3:45pm: Gee that carbon and mining tax is taking its toll.... :( ......and they have

While I'm sure that any tax does have an impact on the market, that is a far call from being able to link this specific event.

Sounds like you just have an axe to grind. Well have no fear, those taxes will soon be gone if Tony is willing to negotiate.

Kytro wrote on Jun 26^th, 2014 at 9:51am:

Sounds like you just have an axe to grind.

Everyone that posts has an axe to grind... ;)

Some just have sharper axes... ;D

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 11:11am:

John Smith wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 9:01pm: Swagman wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 8:03pm: John Smith wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 6:23pm: Swagman wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 6:13pm: Kytro wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 4:55pm: Swagman wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 3:45pm: Gee that carbon and mining tax is taking its toll.... :( Provide some actual evidence. 3000 BHP workers sacked yes, that fine is someone wants evidece of people being sacked ... but that was not what was asked for ... try again! :D :D ok 3000 BHP workers sacked because of the carbon and mining taxes see that's where you go wrong ... you simply making a claim does not in any reality constitute  evidence ... Remember that next time you feel the urge to call Abbott a woman basher. Practice what you preach, Johnny Boy!!!

when did I call Abbott a woman basher???? produce the evidence,  mo ron

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 4:12pm:

The price of iron ore has crashed. GOT NOT A THING TO DO WITH CARBON TAX I AM SURE.. But don't worry Tony reckons he's the best friend the workers ever had. LETS SEE IF IT COMES BACK TO THE PRICES LABOR WERE GETTING BUT DIDNT LEAVE  A THING TO SHOW FOR IT.. EXCEPT DEBT..IF THE PRICE IS DROPPED.. BHP looks to cut thousands of jobs from its iron ore division in WA The ABC understands up to 3,000 jobs could go from BHP's iron ore division, which currently employs 16,000 people. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-24/bhp-confirms-job-losses/5545820

THEY WILL GET A REDUNDANCY PACKAGE LIKE ALL THE PUBLIC SERVANTS....THEY WONT WALK OUT WITH NOTHING..

John Smith wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 10:19am:

see now your just making the facts suit your argument ... naughty boy

How dare I use facts to support my arguments... :D


John Smith wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 10:19am:

there is nothing there to indicate that any reduction in anything is because of the mining tax ....

I believe there is.....have a look at a few of those facts supporting my argument.  :-?


John Smith wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 10:19am:

your graph also shows a decline in percentage terms in south America and Canada ... was that also because of labors mining tax?

Obviously not, but the decline was less in those regions than that experienced in Australia (which I pointed out)

Even in a declining market there are still new ventures being proposed.  These new ventures are more likely to go to the countries where the Govt is tax friendly not tax greedy.


John Smith wrote on Jun 25^th, 2014 at 10:19am:

another point to add ... you said yourself that mining require huge amounts of 'upfront' capital ... Australia has gone beyond the upfront stage of the cycle and moving into the production stage.

Not all mining ventures are set up and commence production in unison Smithy... ;D

There is also a time lag Smithy.   The mining business Australians have missed out on due to Labor's anti-enterprise tax grab is another factor behind the declining mine jobs currently.  These ventures would indeed now be entering the production phase but the jobs are in other countries arguably because the Investors sought more equitable tax regimes.

Swagman wrote on Jun 26^th, 2014 at 10:48am:

How dare I use facts to support my arguments

but you're not ... you are twisting totally unrelated facts to try and support your argument ... that graph shows NOTHING to do with the mining tax


Swagman wrote on Jun 26^th, 2014 at 10:48am:

I believe there is.....have a look at a few of those facts supporting my argument

good on you for your beliefs, some people believe the planet wa sinhabited by aliens ,... your beliefs mean nothing. And you've not provided any facts showing the effects of mining tax


Swagman wrote on Jun 26^th, 2014 at 10:48am:

Obviously not, but the decline was less in those regions than that experienced in Australia (which I pointed out)

and you still can't prove that it has anything to do with mining tax. This year someone may propose 10 new ventures, if no policy changes are announced that doesn't mean next year they will also propose another 10 ... next there could be one, or there could be 100.


Swagman wrote on Jun 26^th, 2014 at 10:48am:

Not all mining ventures are set up and commence production in unison Smithy...

no one said we are .... nevertheless, we are moving from a period of high investment and setting up of new ventures, to full scale production

cods wrote on Jun 26^th, 2014 at 10:26am:

THEY WILL GET A REDUNDANCY PACKAGE LIKE ALL THE PUBLIC SERVANTS....THEY WONT WALK OUT WITH NOTHING..

Most of them will be contract workers, they'll be lucky to get their holiday pay. 3,000 contracts will be cancelled and 3,000 workers will be immediately unemployed, living off their savings, that's how it works, no redundancy packages.

This is what we get for Howard setting up an economy that relies solely on the whims of the communist giant to our north.
This is the banana republic Keating was warning us about and the banana republic the neo cons keep voting for.

John Smith wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 6:23pm:

Swagman wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 6:13pm: Kytro wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 4:55pm: Swagman wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 3:45pm: Gee that carbon and mining tax is taking its toll.... :( Provide some actual evidence. 3000 BHP workers sacked yes, that fine is someone wants evidece of people being sacked ... but that was not what was asked for ... try again! :D :D

Maybe they were just poor timekeepers dickhead. :D

austranger wrote on Jun 24^th, 2014 at 4:44pm:

I fully expect that this Mining crash and the collapse of the car industry will lead to Gov' statistics showing a decrease in unemployment of course, they'll have "created" more than enough "new jobs" to absorb all these workers, you can bet on that! Wonderful things, statistics, they can solve all our problems overnight!  :o

The most dirty trick they ever played with statistics was to lump the casual workers with the permanent workers without missing a beat.

And then during Bob Hawke's time in government they stopped showing the medical contributions on payslips, and included it under income tax so before long people forgot they were actually paying an insurance fee for their medical needs.

Free medical care? ~ Not really.

Swagman wrote on Jun 26^th, 2014 at 10:48am:

How dare I use facts to support my arguments

John Smith wrote on Jun 26^th, 2014 at 10:55am:

but you're not ... you are twisting totally unrelated facts to try and support your argument ... that graph shows NOTHING to do with the mining tax

Capital raising for new mining ventures is hardly unrelated Smithy  ::)


Swagman wrote on Jun 26^th, 2014 at 10:48am:

I believe there is.....have a look at a few of those facts supporting my argument

John Smith wrote on Jun 26^th, 2014 at 10:55am:

good on you for your beliefs, some people believe the planet wa sinhabited by aliens ,... your beliefs mean nothing. And you've not provided any facts showing the effects of mining tax

Yes....those pesky friggin aliens are at it again....

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/timbo2530/b3454ccd-9ce7-4a55-88e4-633bc0d6ad17.jpg


Swagman wrote on Jun 26^th, 2014 at 10:48am:

Obviously not, but the decline was less in those regions than that experienced in Australia (which I pointed out)

John Smith wrote on Jun 26^th, 2014 at 10:55am:

and you still can't prove that it has anything to do with mining tax. This year someone may propose 10 new ventures, if no policy changes are announced that doesn't mean next year they will also propose another 10 ... next there could be one, or there could be 100.

...and you can't prove that it didn't.   :-?


Swagman wrote on Jun 26^th, 2014 at 10:48am:

Not all mining ventures are set up and commence production in unison Smithy...

John Smith wrote on Jun 26^th, 2014 at 10:55am:

no one said we are .... nevertheless, we are moving from a period of high investment and setting up of new ventures, to full scale production

Exactly, which is why anyone that is contemplating sinking cash into a mining venture doesn't want the Govt of the day proposing that in addition to the normal 30% company tax they are going to hit you with an added success tax.

Rhet-Oracle wrote on Jun 26^th, 2014 at 12:11pm:

John Smith wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 6:23pm: Swagman wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 6:13pm: Kytro wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 4:55pm: Swagman wrote on Jun 24th, 2014 at 3:45pm: Gee that carbon and mining tax is taking its toll.... :( Provide some actual evidence. 3000 BHP workers sacked yes, that fine is someone wants evidece of people being sacked ... but that was not what was asked for ... try again! :D :D Maybe they were just poor timekeepers dickhead. :D

how is that even relevant let alone sensical? DO you always jump in with random, unrelated comments? 

The question asked was has he any evidence they were sacked because of mining and carbon tax .....

i think it's time you had another cone  :D :D :D :D

Swagman wrote on Jun 26^th, 2014 at 12:43pm:

Capital raising for new mining ventures is hardly unrelated Smithy

it's a long stetch of the bow to claim capital raising changes were as a result of mining tax


Swagman wrote on Jun 26^th, 2014 at 12:43pm:

Yes....those pesky friggin aliens are at it again

so you got my point ... goodo ... now maybe you'll leave out your opinion and stick to facts


Swagman wrote on Jun 26^th, 2014 at 12:43pm:

...and you can't prove that it didn't.

but I didn't say it didn't ... you claimed it did, I asked you to prove it


Swagman wrote on Jun 26^th, 2014 at 12:43pm:

Exactly, which is why anyone that is contemplating sinking cash into a mining venture doesn't want the Govt of the day proposing that in addition to the normal 30% company tax they are going to hit you with an added success tax.

you do understand that record levels can never be maintanied permanently? thats why they call them record levels ...

Bump