Australian Greens model millionaire taxes for Tony Abbott and his rich friends


Taxing trusts as if they were companies, and applying a new top marginal tax rate on incomes over $1 million, would raise billions of dollars for the Commonwealth budget and alleviate pressure to slash welfare programs for the genuinely needy, the Greens have said.

The country's third political force has commissioned an updated independent costing of the two proposals originally put forward by the Parliamentary Budget Office, as an alternative to a raft of harsh spending cuts being considered by the Abbott government.

The move has been calculated to illustrate the ways that Australia's rich and poor are being cast in the Abbott government's narrative of a budget emergency.

These measures have yet to be announced but speculation is rife in Canberra that the first Hockey budget could contain decisions to tighten eligibility for the age pension, make GP visits more expensive through the application of a co-payment by patients of $6, and even see a crackdown on eligibility for the Disability Support Pension.

The PBO modelling found the move to scrap the generous taxation treatment of discretionary trusts, of which there are some 550,000 in operation at present, would raise some $3.3 billion over the four-year budget period from July 1, this year.

However it acknowledged in its costing documents, obtained by Fairfax Media, that its modelling was "considered to be of low reliability" due to a series of inherently uncertain assumptions about future behaviour.

This could include individuals abandoning trusts and using other measures if the taxation arrangements were no longer regarded as sufficiently attractive.

Another almost $1 billion would be gained in revenue by the addition of a 5 per cent super-rich tax on the tiny minority of people with incomes over $1 million - defined as taxable income plus reportable fringe benefits.

The PBO modelling provided to the Greens party shows this proposal has been costed as adding $926.6 million to the underlying fiscal balance over the four budget years from July 1, 2014.

The tax take from this measure would gradually increase through bracket-creep expanding its eligibility and thus causing it to reap $339.7 million in the final year, 2017-18.

Acting Greens leader Adam Bandt said it was unacceptable for the government to be shaping up for a major hit on the vulnerable, while the well-off were allowed to structure their affairs to minimise tax, depriving the budget of much needed revenue.

“The wealthy elite should take a haircut, not those who rely on bulk-billing to see a doctor,” Mr Bandt said, declaring that Prime Minister Tony Abbott was "backed by society’s ‘1%’".

“If Joe Hockey and Tony Abbott let their millionaire friends off scot-free while attacking pensions and essential services, they will have declared ‘class war’ on the country and divided Australia," he said.

“If the ‘age of entitlement’ is over, as Joe Hockey says, he should start at the top. Joe Hockey should balance the budget fairly by implementing these independent costings provided by the Greens," Mr Bandt said.

The combined effect on revenue of the two measures would be close to $4.3 billion over four years with the potential to raise more beyond the budget period.

Trusts run by farmers would be exempt from the Greens' changes.

But the ideas are unlikely to find favour with either of the major parties - neither of whom want to be associated with implementing new taxes.


http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/australian-greens-model-millionaire-taxes-for-tony-abbott-and-his-rich-friends-20140423-zqy9f.html

How inflammatory, I guess the wealthy are used to it.

Whenever politicians talk about taxing that rich it almost always ends up hurting those it seeks to help, the wealthy are very good at passing costs off on others. Last thing you want to do is hurt consumers and workers.

People have heard of shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in 3 generations right?

I'm no corporate apologist or defender but this is what makes me sceptic:
"However it acknowledged in its costing documents, obtained by Fairfax Media, that its modelling was "considered to be of low reliability" due to a series of inherently uncertain assumptions about future behaviour.

This could include individuals abandoning trusts and using other measures if the taxation arrangements were no longer regarded as sufficiently attractive."

What that means is they don't know what will happen, will ignore any warnings people give and it could have unforeseen (foreseen by those ignored) consequences.

How well do the Greens know their history?

Let's just tax the lazy, worthless Greens who never contribute to society but see fit to block roads, disrupt people trying to go about their lives and generally waste our time while getting a nice govt dole payment?

Vuk11 wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2014 at 7:11pm:

I'm no corporate apologist or defender but this is what makes me sceptic: "However it acknowledged in its costing documents, obtained by Fairfax Media, that its modelling was "considered to be of low reliability" due to a series of inherently uncertain assumptions about future behaviour. This could include individuals abandoning trusts and using other measures if the taxation arrangements were no longer regarded as sufficiently attractive." What that means is they don't know what will happen, will ignore any warnings people give and it could have unforeseen (foreseen by those ignored) consequences.

What it shows is that there are other tax loopholes that need to be closed.

Without sharing the load, the cons are just enacting class warfare against the lower and middle income bracket.

Once again Greens reveal they are the party of the majority while the cons are the party of the minority.

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2014 at 7:15pm:

Let's just tax the lazy, worthless Greens who never contribute to society but see fit to block roads, disrupt people trying to go about their lives and generally waste our time while getting a nice govt dole payment?

Let's just tax the lazy, worthless idle rich who never contribute to society.

Bam wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2014 at 7:18pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:15pm: Let's just tax the lazy, worthless Greens who never contribute to society but see fit to block roads, disrupt people trying to go about their lives and generally waste our time while getting a nice govt dole payment? Let's just tax the lazy, worthless idle rich who never contribute to society.

Yeah, they don't do much - just mortgage their homes to start the business at considerable risk to themselves then employ staff and thereby help the community prosper. Lousy bludgers!

____ wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2014 at 7:17pm:

Once again Greens reveal they are the party of the majority while the cons are the party of the minority.

I thought we're supposed to protect minorities from the majority in a Democracy >:(

IMHO all three seek to use big government policies to deal with these issues without considering that maybe the problem is too much government. That's okay though they can play their smoke screen card shuffle games, the time will come......it's inevitable.

(The rubber band effect towards freedom is coming  :D )

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2014 at 7:21pm:

Bam wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:18pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:15pm: Let's just tax the lazy, worthless Greens who never contribute to society but see fit to block roads, disrupt people trying to go about their lives and generally waste our time while getting a nice govt dole payment? Let's just tax the lazy, worthless idle rich who never contribute to society. Yeah, they don't do much - just mortgage their homes to start the business at considerable risk to themselves then employ staff and thereby help the community prosper. Lousy bludgers!

Rather than share the load you want to cripple small businesses. Every person that pays abbott's doctor tax spends less in the retail sector.

Vuk11 wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2014 at 7:22pm:

____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:17pm: Once again Greens reveal they are the party of the majority while the cons are the party of the minority. I thought we're supposed to protect minorities from the majority in a Democracy >:( IMHO all three seek to use big government policies to deal with these issues without considering that maybe the problem is too much government. That's okay though they can play their smoke screen card shuffle games, the time will come......it's inevitable. (The rubber band effect towards freedom is coming  :D )

Protect no, integrate yes.
Greens are out to integrate millionaires to the art of benevolence.

Your welcome.

____ wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2014 at 7:24pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:21pm: Bam wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:18pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:15pm: Let's just tax the lazy, worthless Greens who never contribute to society but see fit to block roads, disrupt people trying to go about their lives and generally waste our time while getting a nice govt dole payment? Let's just tax the lazy, worthless idle rich who never contribute to society. Yeah, they don't do much - just mortgage their homes to start the business at considerable risk to themselves then employ staff and thereby help the community prosper. Lousy bludgers! Rather than share the load you want to cripple small businesses. Every person that pays abbott's doctor tax spends less in the retail sector.

Welcome to life under the carbon tax, where things like electricity cost more and prevent people from spending as much (or at all) at shops.

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2014 at 7:55pm:

____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:24pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:21pm: Bam wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:18pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:15pm: Let's just tax the lazy, worthless Greens who never contribute to society but see fit to block roads, disrupt people trying to go about their lives and generally waste our time while getting a nice govt dole payment? Let's just tax the lazy, worthless idle rich who never contribute to society. Yeah, they don't do much - just mortgage their homes to start the business at considerable risk to themselves then employ staff and thereby help the community prosper. Lousy bludgers! Rather than share the load you want to cripple small businesses. Every person that pays abbott's doctor tax spends less in the retail sector. Welcome to life under the carbon tax, where things like electricity cost more and prevent people from spending as much (or at all) at shops.

People were compensated to a greater amount of the levy and so people still spent in small businesses. Small business didn't suffer the turndown that Abbott's doctor tax will cause.

How many small businesses have to go under before Abbott stops his Tax War against them?

____ wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2014 at 8:03pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:55pm: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:24pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:21pm: Bam wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:18pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:15pm: Let's just tax the lazy, worthless Greens who never contribute to society but see fit to block roads, disrupt people trying to go about their lives and generally waste our time while getting a nice govt dole payment? Let's just tax the lazy, worthless idle rich who never contribute to society. Yeah, they don't do much - just mortgage their homes to start the business at considerable risk to themselves then employ staff and thereby help the community prosper. Lousy bludgers! Rather than share the load you want to cripple small businesses. Every person that pays abbott's doctor tax spends less in the retail sector. Welcome to life under the carbon tax, where things like electricity cost more and prevent people from spending as much (or at all) at shops. People were compensated to a greater amount of the levy and so people still spent in small businesses. Small business didn't suffer the turndown that Abbott's doctor tax will cause. How many small businesses have to go under before Abbott stops his Tax War against them?

Not fully compensated.

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2014 at 8:06pm:

____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:03pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:55pm: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:24pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:21pm: Bam wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:18pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:15pm: Let's just tax the lazy, worthless Greens who never contribute to society but see fit to block roads, disrupt people trying to go about their lives and generally waste our time while getting a nice govt dole payment? Let's just tax the lazy, worthless idle rich who never contribute to society. Yeah, they don't do much - just mortgage their homes to start the business at considerable risk to themselves then employ staff and thereby help the community prosper. Lousy bludgers! Rather than share the load you want to cripple small businesses. Every person that pays abbott's doctor tax spends less in the retail sector. Welcome to life under the carbon tax, where things like electricity cost more and prevent people from spending as much (or at all) at shops. People were compensated to a greater amount of the levy and so people still spent in small businesses. Small business didn't suffer the turndown that Abbott's doctor tax will cause. How many small businesses have to go under before Abbott stops his Tax War against them? Not fully compensated.

And no compensation for Abbott's Medical Treatment Tax. That will strip money out of the retail economy, out of small businesses and sending some to the wall. Less revenue from the GST and higher unemployment.

Abbott's medical treatment tax is a killer.

____ wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2014 at 8:15pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:06pm: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:03pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:55pm: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:24pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:21pm: Bam wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:18pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:15pm: Let's just tax the lazy, worthless Greens who never contribute to society but see fit to block roads, disrupt people trying to go about their lives and generally waste our time while getting a nice govt dole payment? Let's just tax the lazy, worthless idle rich who never contribute to society. Yeah, they don't do much - just mortgage their homes to start the business at considerable risk to themselves then employ staff and thereby help the community prosper. Lousy bludgers! Rather than share the load you want to cripple small businesses. Every person that pays abbott's doctor tax spends less in the retail sector. Welcome to life under the carbon tax, where things like electricity cost more and prevent people from spending as much (or at all) at shops. People were compensated to a greater amount of the levy and so people still spent in small businesses. Small business didn't suffer the turndown that Abbott's doctor tax will cause. How many small businesses have to go under before Abbott stops his Tax War against them? Not fully compensated. And no compensation for Abbott's Medical Treatment Tax. That will strip money out of the retail economy, out of small businesses and sending some to the wall. Less revenue from the GST and higher unemployment. Abbott's medical treatment tax is a killer.

Why is compensation even needed for a tax? Absurd: collect it with one hand, give back with another. What's the point, then? Proof the carbon tax is a useless, costly lie.

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 2:36am:

____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:15pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:06pm: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:03pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:55pm: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:24pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:21pm: Bam wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:18pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:15pm: Let's just tax the lazy, worthless Greens who never contribute to society but see fit to block roads, disrupt people trying to go about their lives and generally waste our time while getting a nice govt dole payment? Let's just tax the lazy, worthless idle rich who never contribute to society. Yeah, they don't do much - just mortgage their homes to start the business at considerable risk to themselves then employ staff and thereby help the community prosper. Lousy bludgers! Rather than share the load you want to cripple small businesses. Every person that pays abbott's doctor tax spends less in the retail sector. Welcome to life under the carbon tax, where things like electricity cost more and prevent people from spending as much (or at all) at shops. People were compensated to a greater amount of the levy and so people still spent in small businesses. Small business didn't suffer the turndown that Abbott's doctor tax will cause. How many small businesses have to go under before Abbott stops his Tax War against them? Not fully compensated. And no compensation for Abbott's Medical Treatment Tax. That will strip money out of the retail economy, out of small businesses and sending some to the wall. Less revenue from the GST and higher unemployment. Abbott's medical treatment tax is a killer. Why is compensation even needed for a tax? Absurd: collect it with one hand, give back with another. What's the point, then? Proof the carbon tax is a useless, costly lie.

To protect the vulnerable from collateral damage. The carbon levy is aimed at the big end of town to shift the economy away from high carbon pollution where as abbott's doctor tax is aimed at stopping financially struggling people seeking assistance for health challenges from a doctor.


Cons are waging class warfare.

____ wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 5:03am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 2:36am: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:15pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:06pm: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:03pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:55pm: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:24pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:21pm: Bam wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:18pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:15pm: Let's just tax the lazy, worthless Greens who never contribute to society but see fit to block roads, disrupt people trying to go about their lives and generally waste our time while getting a nice govt dole payment? Let's just tax the lazy, worthless idle rich who never contribute to society. Yeah, they don't do much - just mortgage their homes to start the business at considerable risk to themselves then employ staff and thereby help the community prosper. Lousy bludgers! Rather than share the load you want to cripple small businesses. Every person that pays abbott's doctor tax spends less in the retail sector. Welcome to life under the carbon tax, where things like electricity cost more and prevent people from spending as much (or at all) at shops. People were compensated to a greater amount of the levy and so people still spent in small businesses. Small business didn't suffer the turndown that Abbott's doctor tax will cause. How many small businesses have to go under before Abbott stops his Tax War against them? Not fully compensated. And no compensation for Abbott's Medical Treatment Tax. That will strip money out of the retail economy, out of small businesses and sending some to the wall. Less revenue from the GST and higher unemployment. Abbott's medical treatment tax is a killer. Why is compensation even needed for a tax? Absurd: collect it with one hand, give back with another. What's the point, then? Proof the carbon tax is a useless, costly lie. To protect the vulnerable from collateral damage. The carbon levy is aimed at the big end of town to shift the economy away from high carbon pollution where as abbott's doctor tax is aimed at stopping financially struggling people seeking assistance for health challenges from a doctor. Cons are waging class warfare.

morning greeny

but the carbon tax is increasing the cost of just about everything the poor/struggling  people use...gas is going up in NSW because they are now having to buy gas from  other States..


By consumer affairs reporter Amy Bainbridge, staff
Updated 9 hours 20 minutes ago


The Independent Pricing and Regulatory Tribunal (IPART) has released a draft decision on regulated gas prices in New South Wales, suggesting an increase of around 17.6 per cent.

IPART's draft decision would take effect from the 2014-15 financial year.

It means from July 1, typical annual gas bills will rise by between $150 and $225 for households, depending on where people live and how much gas they use.

IPART chairman Dr Peter Boxall says the increases are largely due to rising wholesale gas prices.

"The ability to export liquid natural gas is driving a structural change in eastern Australia's wholesale gas market, and increasingly domestic gas prices will be influenced by what is happening in world gas markets," he says.

"As has been the case for the last couple of years, rising gas network costs are also contributing to the regulated price increase for AGL, the major supplier of gas to NSW's small customers.

"Most NSW gas consumers are already on market contracts rather than regulated prices, and we anticipate further competition among retailers as a result of electricity price deregulation.

"This should lead to more competitive energy pricing and better service standards for customers."

NSW Premier Mike Baird says around half of the proposed increase is due to the carbon tax.

"I understand that there's a premiers' COAG coming up next week. I will be raising that with the Prime Minister," he said.

"I'm sure the other states will do everything possible to take away the carbon tax that is impacting people on the ground in terms of their gas bills


you cant keep ignoring it greeny

cods wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 5:19am:

____ wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 5:03am: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 2:36am: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:15pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:06pm: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:03pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:55pm: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:24pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:21pm: Bam wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:18pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:15pm: Let's just tax the lazy, worthless Greens who never contribute to society but see fit to block roads, disrupt people trying to go about their lives and generally waste our time while getting a nice govt dole payment? Let's just tax the lazy, worthless idle rich who never contribute to society. Yeah, they don't do much - just mortgage their homes to start the business at considerable risk to themselves then employ staff and thereby help the community prosper. Lousy bludgers! Rather than share the load you want to cripple small businesses. Every person that pays abbott's doctor tax spends less in the retail sector. Welcome to life under the carbon tax, where things like electricity cost more and prevent people from spending as much (or at all) at shops. People were compensated to a greater amount of the levy and so people still spent in small businesses. Small business didn't suffer the turndown that Abbott's doctor tax will cause. How many small businesses have to go under before Abbott stops his Tax War against them? Not fully compensated. And no compensation for Abbott's Medical Treatment Tax. That will strip money out of the retail economy, out of small businesses and sending some to the wall. Less revenue from the GST and higher unemployment. Abbott's medical treatment tax is a killer. Why is compensation even needed for a tax? Absurd: collect it with one hand, give back with another. What's the point, then? Proof the carbon tax is a useless, costly lie. To protect the vulnerable from collateral damage. The carbon levy is aimed at the big end of town to shift the economy away from high carbon pollution where as abbott's doctor tax is aimed at stopping financially struggling people seeking assistance for health challenges from a doctor. Cons are waging class warfare. morning greeny but the carbon tax is increasing the cost of just about everything the poor/struggling  people use...gas is going up in NSW because they are now having to buy gas from  other States.. By consumer affairs reporter Amy Bainbridge, staff Updated 9 hours 20 minutes ago The Independent Pricing and Regulatory Tribunal (IPART) has released a draft decision on regulated gas prices in New South Wales, suggesting an increase of around 17.6 per cent. IPART's draft decision would take effect from the 2014-15 financial year. It means from July 1, typical annual gas bills will rise by between $150 and $225 for households, depending on where people live and how much gas they use. IPART chairman Dr Peter Boxall says the increases are largely due to rising wholesale gas prices. "The ability to export liquid natural gas is driving a structural change in eastern Australia's wholesale gas market, and increasingly domestic gas prices will be influenced by what is happening in world gas markets," he says. "As has been the case for the last couple of years, rising gas network costs are also contributing to the regulated price increase for AGL, the major supplier of gas to NSW's small customers. "Most NSW gas consumers are already on market contracts rather than regulated prices, and we anticipate further competition among retailers as a result of electricity price deregulation. "This should lead to more competitive energy pricing and better service standards for customers." NSW Premier Mike Baird says around half of the proposed increase is due to the carbon tax. "I understand that there's a premiers' COAG coming up next week. I will be raising that with the Prime Minister," he said. "I'm sure the other states will do everything possible to take away the carbon tax that is impacting people on the ground in terms of their gas bills you cant keep ignoring it greeny

You don't know Greens_Ignorance very well. She's got ignoring facts down to a fine art!

Sorry greens, as Kerry packer said
"anyone who pays a cent more tax then he has to is a fool'
"you guys aren't spending it very wisely'

As for paying more tax for green loons to spend.
I'd rather put my hard earned through a shredder than give it to clowns like Sarah, Christine and the new rich green hypocrite  Larrissa Waters . ;) ;) ;)

____ wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2014 at 6:51pm:

Australian Greens model millionaire taxes for Tony Abbott and his rich friends Taxing trusts as if they were companies, and applying a new top marginal tax rate on incomes over $1 million, would raise billions of dollars for the Commonwealth budget and alleviate pressure to slash welfare programs for the genuinely needy, the Greens have said. The country's third political force has commissioned an updated independent costing of the two proposals originally put forward by the Parliamentary Budget Office, as an alternative to a raft of harsh spending cuts being considered by the Abbott government. The move has been calculated to illustrate the ways that Australia's rich and poor are being cast in the Abbott government's narrative of a budget emergency. These measures have yet to be announced but speculation is rife in Canberra that the first Hockey budget could contain decisions to tighten eligibility for the age pension, make GP visits more expensive through the application of a co-payment by patients of $6, and even see a crackdown on eligibility for the Disability Support Pension. The PBO modelling found the move to scrap the generous taxation treatment of discretionary trusts, of which there are some 550,000 in operation at present, would raise some $3.3 billion over the four-year budget period from July 1, this year. However it acknowledged in its costing documents, obtained by Fairfax Media, that its modelling was "considered to be of low reliability" due to a series of inherently uncertain assumptions about future behaviour. This could include individuals abandoning trusts and using other measures if the taxation arrangements were no longer regarded as sufficiently attractive. Another almost $1 billion would be gained in revenue by the addition of a 5 per cent super-rich tax on the tiny minority of people with incomes over $1 million - defined as taxable income plus reportable fringe benefits. The PBO modelling provided to the Greens party shows this proposal has been costed as adding $926.6 million to the underlying fiscal balance over the four budget years from July 1, 2014. The tax take from this measure would gradually increase through bracket-creep expanding its eligibility and thus causing it to reap $339.7 million in the final year, 2017-18. Acting Greens leader Adam Bandt said it was unacceptable for the government to be shaping up for a major hit on the vulnerable, while the well-off were allowed to structure their affairs to minimise tax, depriving the budget of much needed revenue. “The wealthy elite should take a haircut, not those who rely on bulk-billing to see a doctor,” Mr Bandt said, declaring that Prime Minister Tony Abbott was "backed by society’s ‘1%’". “If Joe Hockey and Tony Abbott let their millionaire friends off scot-free while attacking pensions and essential services, they will have declared ‘class war’ on the country and divided Australia," he said. “If the ‘age of entitlement’ is over, as Joe Hockey says, he should start at the top. Joe Hockey should balance the budget fairly by implementing these independent costings provided by the Greens," Mr Bandt said. The combined effect on revenue of the two measures would be close to $4.3 billion over four years with the potential to raise more beyond the budget period. Trusts run by farmers would be exempt from the Greens' changes. But the ideas are unlikely to find favour with either of the major parties - neither of whom want to be associated with implementing new taxes. http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/australian-greens-model-millionaire-taxes-for-tony-abbott-and-his-rich-friends-20140423-zqy9f.html

People have a right to feel the age of entitlement.

They have paid taxes all their lives so others could get a pension &
then they are not entitled to one for 1001 reasons.

It doesn't seem fair at all.

cods wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 5:19am:

____ wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 5:03am: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 2:36am: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:15pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:06pm: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:03pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:55pm: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:24pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:21pm: Bam wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:18pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:15pm: Let's just tax the lazy, worthless Greens who never contribute to society but see fit to block roads, disrupt people trying to go about their lives and generally waste our time while getting a nice govt dole payment? Let's just tax the lazy, worthless idle rich who never contribute to society. Yeah, they don't do much - just mortgage their homes to start the business at considerable risk to themselves then employ staff and thereby help the community prosper. Lousy bludgers! Rather than share the load you want to cripple small businesses. Every person that pays abbott's doctor tax spends less in the retail sector. Welcome to life under the carbon tax, where things like electricity cost more and prevent people from spending as much (or at all) at shops. People were compensated to a greater amount of the levy and so people still spent in small businesses. Small business didn't suffer the turndown that Abbott's doctor tax will cause. How many small businesses have to go under before Abbott stops his Tax War against them? Not fully compensated. And no compensation for Abbott's Medical Treatment Tax. That will strip money out of the retail economy, out of small businesses and sending some to the wall. Less revenue from the GST and higher unemployment. Abbott's medical treatment tax is a killer. Why is compensation even needed for a tax? Absurd: collect it with one hand, give back with another. What's the point, then? Proof the carbon tax is a useless, costly lie. To protect the vulnerable from collateral damage. The carbon levy is aimed at the big end of town to shift the economy away from high carbon pollution where as abbott's doctor tax is aimed at stopping financially struggling people seeking assistance for health challenges from a doctor. Cons are waging class warfare. morning greeny but the carbon tax is increasing the cost of just about everything the poor/struggling  people use...gas is going up in NSW because they are now having to buy gas from  other States.. By consumer affairs reporter Amy Bainbridge, staff Updated 9 hours 20 minutes ago The Independent Pricing and Regulatory Tribunal (IPART) has released a draft decision on regulated gas prices in New South Wales, suggesting an increase of around 17.6 per cent. IPART's draft decision would take effect from the 2014-15 financial year. It means from July 1, typical annual gas bills will rise by between $150 and $225 for households, depending on where people live and how much gas they use. IPART chairman Dr Peter Boxall says the increases are largely due to rising wholesale gas prices. "The ability to export liquid natural gas is driving a structural change in eastern Australia's wholesale gas market, and increasingly domestic gas prices will be influenced by what is happening in world gas markets," he says. "As has been the case for the last couple of years, rising gas network costs are also contributing to the regulated price increase for AGL, the major supplier of gas to NSW's small customers. "Most NSW gas consumers are already on market contracts rather than regulated prices, and we anticipate further competition among retailers as a result of electricity price deregulation. "This should lead to more competitive energy pricing and better service standards for customers." NSW Premier Mike Baird says around half of the proposed increase is due to the carbon tax. "I understand that there's a premiers' COAG coming up next week. I will be raising that with the Prime Minister," he said. "I'm sure the other states will do everything possible to take away the carbon tax that is impacting people on the ground in terms of their gas bills you cant keep ignoring it greeny

So you and Baird are blaming the carbon levy for exporting too much of the countries gas overseas and creating a shortage here so forcing the price up.

No wonder you hate the carbon levy when you can't even see the massive holes in your own argument.

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2014 at 7:21pm:

Bam wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:18pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:15pm: Let's just tax the lazy, worthless Greens who never contribute to society but see fit to block roads, disrupt people trying to go about their lives and generally waste our time while getting a nice govt dole payment? Let's just tax the lazy, worthless idle rich who never contribute to society. Yeah, they don't do much - just mortgage their homes to start the business at considerable risk to themselves then employ staff and thereby help the community prosper. Lousy bludgers!

your an idiot ... can't you read? anyone mortgaging their home is unlikely to be making over $1million in income per year now are they ?

aquascoot wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 7:46am:

Sorry greens, as Kerry packer said "anyone who pays a cent more tax then he has to is a fool' "you guys aren't spending it very wisely' As for paying more tax for green loons to spend. I'd rather put my hard earned through a shredder than give it to clowns like Sarah, Christine and the new rich green hypocrite  Larrissa Waters . ;) ;) ;)

It's not the Greens who are spending $12 billion plus on dud fighters ... it's the cons.

Now why should the financially struggling only be the ones have to pay for this waste via things like abbott's doctor tax and witch hunt on the disabled pensioners.

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 2:36am:

____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:15pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:06pm: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:03pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:55pm: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:24pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:21pm: Bam wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:18pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:15pm: Let's just tax the lazy, worthless Greens who never contribute to society but see fit to block roads, disrupt people trying to go about their lives and generally waste our time while getting a nice govt dole payment? Let's just tax the lazy, worthless idle rich who never contribute to society. Yeah, they don't do much - just mortgage their homes to start the business at considerable risk to themselves then employ staff and thereby help the community prosper. Lousy bludgers! Rather than share the load you want to cripple small businesses. Every person that pays abbott's doctor tax spends less in the retail sector. Welcome to life under the carbon tax, where things like electricity cost more and prevent people from spending as much (or at all) at shops. People were compensated to a greater amount of the levy and so people still spent in small businesses. Small business didn't suffer the turndown that Abbott's doctor tax will cause. How many small businesses have to go under before Abbott stops his Tax War against them? Not fully compensated. And no compensation for Abbott's Medical Treatment Tax. That will strip money out of the retail economy, out of small businesses and sending some to the wall. Less revenue from the GST and higher unemployment. Abbott's medical treatment tax is a killer. Why is compensation even needed for a tax? Absurd: collect it with one hand, give back with another. What's the point, then? Proof the carbon tax is a useless, costly lie.

and there you go proving my point again .... now you're complaining about the need for compensation, while your comment before that was that the compensation wasn't enough ......  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

you have no idea do you?

____ wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 8:14am:

aquascoot wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 7:46am: Sorry greens, as Kerry packer said "anyone who pays a cent more tax then he has to is a fool' "you guys aren't spending it very wisely' As for paying more tax for green loons to spend. I'd rather put my hard earned through a shredder than give it to clowns like Sarah, Christine and the new rich green hypocrite  Larrissa Waters . ;) ;) ;) It's not the Greens who are spending $12 billion plus on dud fighters ... it's the cons. Now why should the financially struggling only be the ones have to pay for this waste via things like abbott's doctor tax and witch hunt on the disabled pensioners.

Oh , I agree on that one.
Scrap the fighters,
But also cut the welfare spending and pour it back into small business to get employment moving.
Now tell me the green plans for small business and farming.
This wont take long.
they probably have more policy documents on whales then small business ;)

John Smith wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 8:17am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 2:36am: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:15pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:06pm: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:03pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:55pm: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:24pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:21pm: Bam wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:18pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:15pm: Let's just tax the lazy, worthless Greens who never contribute to society but see fit to block roads, disrupt people trying to go about their lives and generally waste our time while getting a nice govt dole payment? Let's just tax the lazy, worthless idle rich who never contribute to society. Yeah, they don't do much - just mortgage their homes to start the business at considerable risk to themselves then employ staff and thereby help the community prosper. Lousy bludgers! Rather than share the load you want to cripple small businesses. Every person that pays abbott's doctor tax spends less in the retail sector. Welcome to life under the carbon tax, where things like electricity cost more and prevent people from spending as much (or at all) at shops. People were compensated to a greater amount of the levy and so people still spent in small businesses. Small business didn't suffer the turndown that Abbott's doctor tax will cause. How many small businesses have to go under before Abbott stops his Tax War against them? Not fully compensated. And no compensation for Abbott's Medical Treatment Tax. That will strip money out of the retail economy, out of small businesses and sending some to the wall. Less revenue from the GST and higher unemployment. Abbott's medical treatment tax is a killer. Why is compensation even needed for a tax? Absurd: collect it with one hand, give back with another. What's the point, then? Proof the carbon tax is a useless, costly lie. and there you go proving my point again .... now you're complaining about the need for compensation, while your comment before that was that the compensation wasn't enough ......  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D you have no idea do you?

It's you who has no idea. I said that people aren't fully compensated, not that the compensation isn't enough. BIG difference. There shouldn't need to be compensation, or else the purpose of the tax (which is to make things like electricity more expensive in the hope we'll use it less) becomes nothing more than a very expensive and pointless added burden on Australians.

Vuk11 wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2014 at 7:11pm:

How inflammatory, I guess the wealthy are used to it. Whenever politicians talk about taxing that rich it almost always ends up hurting those it seeks to help, the wealthy are very good at passing costs off on others. Last thing you want to do is hurt consumers and workers. People have heard of shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in 3 generations right? I'm no corporate apologist or defender but this is what makes me sceptic: "However it acknowledged in its costing documents, obtained by Fairfax Media, that its modelling was "considered to be of low reliability" due to a series of inherently uncertain assumptions about future behaviour. This could include individuals abandoning trusts and using other measures if the taxation arrangements were no longer regarded as sufficiently attractive." What that means is they don't know what will happen, will ignore any warnings people give and it could have unforeseen (foreseen by those ignored) consequences. How well do the Greens know their history?

if you tax trusts they will just go elsewhere for tax havens.  if you increase their income taxes they will increase their wage demands or professional fees to compensate and so the consumer ends up paying it. That is one reason why low-tax countries tend to have booming economies becaue high taxes are a brake on economic activity.

Bam wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2014 at 7:18pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:15pm: Let's just tax the lazy, worthless Greens who never contribute to society but see fit to block roads, disrupt people trying to go about their lives and generally waste our time while getting a nice govt dole payment? Let's just tax the lazy, worthless idle rich who never contribute to society.

and how exactly do you want to categorise 'lazy' or 'idle'?  how about we tax the lazy and idle FULLSTOP?  there goes much of the welfare bill already!!!

aquascoot wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 8:23am:

Now tell me the green plans for small business and farming. This wont take long. they probably have more policy documents on whales then small business ;)

It starts off basic:
- 2% tax cut
- instant asset write off from $6,500 to $10,000
- Small Business Commissioner $10m funding (doubled)

Then they go bonkers:
- The Greens will place a temporary ban on expansion by Coles and Woolworths while the ACCC carries out an ex-post assessment into their decisions relating to the grocery market.
- We’ll strengthen competition law to ensure companies are unable to abuse their market power, including giving the ACCC broad divestiture powers.

I reckon that the hurt felt by their taxes will more then offset their 2% tax cut. Attacking Coles and Woolworths with bans will all but stop them from providing cheaper goods and jobs elsewhere.

Not only do they plan to go into a continual deficit they don't take into account the shrinking tax pool from their horrible policies.

Quoting Hayek:
"[Keynes said] 'do trust me if this theory ever becomes dangerous I'm going to turn public opinion around like this', 6 months later he was dead. As usual his pupils did apply to completely different situations a theory which was designed to influence policy in a particular situation. The only thing I blame Keynes for was to make his theory more attractive he called it 'the general theory' in fact he knew precisely it was not a general theory but to persuade government in the 1930's to do a particular thing"

Here's something for the greens: The free lunch myth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmqoCHR14n8

Only a Green would think that a tax could fix every problem.  It has already been modelled that a million dollar pa tax increase would only raise a few hundred million at most while the budget problem is tens of billions.  It is also ideologically opposite to the policies of both parties.

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 12:46pm:

Only a Green would think that a tax could fix every problem.  It has already been modelled that a million dollar pa tax increase would only raise a few hundred million at most while the budget problem is tens of billions.  It is also ideologically opposite to the policies of both parties.

In response the fact that the mining tax was expected to only take in $200 Million instead of a projected $2 Billion Christine Milne of the Greens:

"There are structural problems in the mining tax.....One is that it's structured at 22% when it should be 40%, it leaves out gold, the rebating of royalties to the states and the accelerated depreciation divisions"

She also said in response to the reporter pointing out that all she was talking about was government spending:

"Yes and I'm talking about it to build momentum in the economy that's what you do. You build the infrastructure projects that are going to drive the future"

There's not a single thought among the greens that there could possibly be any alternatives than taxing one industry to fund another, they think they can tax miners and carbon emitters and force the economy over to a renewable one.....never mind the shrinking tax pool and a contraction in the economy.

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 12:46pm:

Only a Green would think that a tax could fix every problem.  It has already been modelled that a million dollar pa tax increase would only raise a few hundred million at most while the budget problem is tens of billions.  It is also ideologically opposite to the policies of both parties.

Opposite to both old parties yet both old parties flip flop on their policies.
Build a constructive policy and the old parties will come. Just like Greens carbon pollution pricing policy ... Labor came on board.

____ wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 12:59pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 12:46pm: Only a Green would think that a tax could fix every problem.  It has already been modelled that a million dollar pa tax increase would only raise a few hundred million at most while the budget problem is tens of billions.  It is also ideologically opposite to the policies of both parties. Opposite to both old parties yet both old parties flip flop on their policies. Build a constructive policy and the old parties will come. Just like Greens carbon pollution pricing policy ... Labor came on board.

yeah... labor came on board and SANK.  no one will be holding hands with your weirdoes every again.

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 1:04pm:

____ wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 12:59pm: longweekend58 wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 12:46pm: Only a Green would think that a tax could fix every problem.  It has already been modelled that a million dollar pa tax increase would only raise a few hundred million at most while the budget problem is tens of billions.  It is also ideologically opposite to the policies of both parties. Opposite to both old parties yet both old parties flip flop on their policies. Build a constructive policy and the old parties will come. Just like Greens carbon pollution pricing policy ... Labor came on board. yeah... labor came on board and SANK.  no one will be holding hands with your weirdoes every again.

Says the bloke who owes money to a childrens charity from a losing bet over the Greens.

You are no expert and dishonest to boot.

____ wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 1:11pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 1:04pm: ____ wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 12:59pm: longweekend58 wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 12:46pm: Only a Green would think that a tax could fix every problem.  It has already been modelled that a million dollar pa tax increase would only raise a few hundred million at most while the budget problem is tens of billions.  It is also ideologically opposite to the policies of both parties. Opposite to both old parties yet both old parties flip flop on their policies. Build a constructive policy and the old parties will come. Just like Greens carbon pollution pricing policy ... Labor came on board. yeah... labor came on board and SANK.  no one will be holding hands with your weirdoes every again. Says the bloke who owes money to a childrens charity from a losing bet over the Greens. You are no expert and dishonest to boot.

already been paid loserboy and in addition I support two children as well as donate to a childrens home in Cambodia.  what do YOU do.  If you are a typical Green you spend your money on yourself and complain about others.

hypocrite.

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 1:34pm:

____ wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 1:11pm: longweekend58 wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 1:04pm: ____ wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 12:59pm: longweekend58 wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 12:46pm: Only a Green would think that a tax could fix every problem.  It has already been modelled that a million dollar pa tax increase would only raise a few hundred million at most while the budget problem is tens of billions.  It is also ideologically opposite to the policies of both parties. Opposite to both old parties yet both old parties flip flop on their policies. Build a constructive policy and the old parties will come. Just like Greens carbon pollution pricing policy ... Labor came on board. yeah... labor came on board and SANK.  no one will be holding hands with your weirdoes every again. Says the bloke who owes money to a childrens charity from a losing bet over the Greens. You are no expert and dishonest to boot. already been paid loserboy and in addition I support two children as well as donate to a childrens home in Cambodia.  what do YOU do.  If you are a typical Green you spend your money on yourself and complain about others. hypocrite.

No receipt was shown and you are a renowned liar.
Thieving from a children's charity, shame on you.
Pay your losing bet and show the receipt.

____ wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 12:59pm:

Build a constructive policy and the old parties will come.

Quote:

Build a more then likely destructive policy and the old parties will flee

Fixed that for you  ;)

Vuk11 wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 2:00pm:

____ wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 12:59pm: Build a constructive policy and the old parties will come. Quote: Build a more then likely destructive policy and the old parties will flee Fixed that for you  ;)

Actually you manipulated it to suit your view. Nothing fixed at all.
If you don't like reading an alternative view then perhaps you are on the wrong website.

____ wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 2:05pm:

Actually you manipulated it to suit your view. Nothing fixed at all. If you don't like reading an alternative view then perhaps you are on the wrong website.

I love reading alternative views!
It allows me to criticize them, put my views forward and have them criticized in the pursuit of knowledge and understanding.

The fact that the Greens and their proponents don't understand how destructive and ignorant their policies are astounds me.

They don't take into account the economic contraction it will cause, they don't take into account future costs that they are creating that will compound with their future expenses. Truly astonishing!

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2014 at 7:21pm:

Bam wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:18pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:15pm: Let's just tax the lazy, worthless Greens who never contribute to society but see fit to block roads, disrupt people trying to go about their lives and generally waste our time while getting a nice govt dole payment? Let's just tax the lazy, worthless idle rich who never contribute to society. Yeah, they don't do much - just mortgage their homes to start the business at considerable risk to themselves then employ staff and thereby help the community prosper. Lousy bludgers!

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Strawmanguthing_1968.jpg
If they're starting a business, they're not idle.
If they're mortgaging their home, they're not rich.

You're going to have to do a lot better than that.

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 8:57am:

Vuk11 wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:11pm: How inflammatory, I guess the wealthy are used to it. Whenever politicians talk about taxing that rich it almost always ends up hurting those it seeks to help, the wealthy are very good at passing costs off on others. Last thing you want to do is hurt consumers and workers. People have heard of shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in 3 generations right? I'm no corporate apologist or defender but this is what makes me sceptic: "However it acknowledged in its costing documents, obtained by Fairfax Media, that its modelling was "considered to be of low reliability" due to a series of inherently uncertain assumptions about future behaviour. This could include individuals abandoning trusts and using other measures if the taxation arrangements were no longer regarded as sufficiently attractive." What that means is they don't know what will happen, will ignore any warnings people give and it could have unforeseen (foreseen by those ignored) consequences. How well do the Greens know their history? if you tax trusts they will just go elsewhere for tax havens.  if you increase their income taxes they will increase their wage demands or professional fees to compensate and so the consumer ends up paying it. That is one reason why low-tax countries tend to have booming economies becaue high taxes are a brake on economic activity.

Next, you will try to spin the Reagan theory about "trickle down Economics", which  is simply stupidity!

perceptions_now wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 2:45pm:

Next, you will try to spin the Reagan theory about "trickle down Economics", which  is simply stupidity!

Trickle down is big government corny corporate crap too, but it is important to remember that the wealthy are wealthy because they reinvest the companies profits, they aren't wealthy in a monetary sense but by the amount of assets and the value of those assets for if they ever do sell them.

It's also important to remember that "taxing the rich" hurts the poor because the cost is passed on to employees and consumers; in the form of less investment, less jobs and higher prices.

I'm not saying tax the poor or the rich, but free them both to provide social mobility and let the economy grow because it damn well wants to.

Vuk11 wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 2:30pm:

____ wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 2:05pm: Actually you manipulated it to suit your view. Nothing fixed at all. If you don't like reading an alternative view then perhaps you are on the wrong website. I love reading alternative views! It allows me to criticize them, put my views forward and have them criticized in the pursuit of knowledge and understanding. The fact that the Greens and their proponents don't understand how destructive and ignorant their policies are astounds me. They don't take into account the economic contraction it will cause, they don't take into account future costs that they are creating that will compound with their future expenses. Truly astonishing!

Now replace Greens with cons ... and now back at you.

Perpetual growth is a myth and so the current pyramid scheme will end. Greens desire a soft landing verses cons' lemmings approach.

Vuk11 wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 2:51pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 2:45pm: Next, you will try to spin the Reagan theory about "trickle down Economics", which  is simply stupidity! Trickle down is big government corny corporate crap too, but it is important to remember that the wealthy are wealthy because they reinvest the companies profits, they aren't wealthy in a monetary sense but by the amount of assets and the value of those assets for if they ever do sell them. It's also important to remember that "taxing the rich" hurts the poor because the cost is passed on to employees and consumers; in the form of less investment, less jobs and higher prices. I'm not saying tax the poor or the rich, but free them both to provide social mobility and let the economy grow because it damn well wants to.

That depends on if the say 3.3 billion dollars raised in the next four years with the Greens policy is invested or squandered on things like open ended searches for wreckage in the indian ocean, expensive off shore concentration camps,  dud fighter jets, or PPL for the rich.

If it is invested properly then the lower income can be raised up.

Bam wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 2:38pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:21pm: Bam wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:18pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:15pm: Let's just tax the lazy, worthless Greens who never contribute to society but see fit to block roads, disrupt people trying to go about their lives and generally waste our time while getting a nice govt dole payment? Let's just tax the lazy, worthless idle rich who never contribute to society. Yeah, they don't do much - just mortgage their homes to start the business at considerable risk to themselves then employ staff and thereby help the community prosper. Lousy bludgers! http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Strawmanguthing_1968.jpg If they're starting a business, they're not idle. If they're mortgaging their home, they're not rich. You're going to have to do a lot better than that.

so how do you define 'lazy', 'worthless' and 'idle'?? IM betting you have no idea.

____ wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 3:32pm:

Now replace Greens with cons ... and now back at you. Perpetual growth is a myth and so the current pyramid scheme will end. Greens desire a soft landing verses cons' lemmings approach.

Replacing greens and cons I can see what you mean when it comes to the environment and with "perpetual growth".

However I would argue that economic growth and prosperity does one fundamental thing that can help us, it increases goods and services and thus increases the wealth of nations (it's people). It's from this wealth that people can then spend their capital/labour working on other projects.

If people are too busy barely scrapping by because of the cost of living and suffering from economic contraction, then at best greens will transfer us to a green economy at the expense of many lives (poverty kills) and by making Australia worse off in the long run, at worst they'll collapse the economy without even transferring to a green economy.

I will always advocate free choice and free markets to create prosperity for all so that the greater total wealth we have can one day be used to transfer whilst not having disastrous consequences.

____ wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 3:37pm:

That depends on if the say 3.3 billion dollars raised in the next four years with the Greens policy is invested or squandered on things like open ended searches for wreckage in the indian ocean, expensive off shore concentration camps,  dud fighter jets, or PPL for the rich. If it is invested properly then the lower income can be raised up.

This is the problem I have with that thinking: Pic related
(An oversimplification on my part but I feel it illustrates the point)

There is no free lunch, this means capital can only be transferred via taxation which is what the greens hope to do, transfer from Minerals to green industries. However what they fail to take into account that the disincentive will most likely cause an economic contraction that will leave them with less of a tax pool and a bigger problem.

What I mean by lower tax pool is that historically government earns a certain % of the GDP as income and if the economic pie (GDP) is lowered the percent remains the same largely and lowers the nominal revenue.

---

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 3:48pm:

Bam wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 2:38pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:21pm: Bam wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:18pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:15pm: Let's just tax the lazy, worthless Greens who never contribute to society but see fit to block roads, disrupt people trying to go about their lives and generally waste our time while getting a nice govt dole payment? Let's just tax the lazy, worthless idle rich who never contribute to society. Yeah, they don't do much - just mortgage their homes to start the business at considerable risk to themselves then employ staff and thereby help the community prosper. Lousy bludgers! http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Strawmanguthing_1968.jpg If they're starting a business, they're not idle. If they're mortgaging their home, they're not rich. You're going to have to do a lot better than that. so how do you define 'lazy', 'worthless' and 'idle'?? IM betting you have no idea.

I use a dictionary.

____ wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 3:32pm:

Perpetual growth is a myth and so the current pyramid scheme will end. Greens desire a soft landing verses cons' lemmings approach.

Perpetual growth is indeed a myth. Our planet has finite resources and it is against the laws of mathematics to assert that exponential growth can continue indefinitely while the limit of growth is finite.

Part of the problem is that the available resources are utilised inefficiently. For example, an Apple phone is intentionally engineered to have a short life (the battery cannot be replaced easily by the consumer). When that phone has to be replaced, resources that were consumed in manufacturing that phone are wasted unnecessarily.

If instead those resources were used to manufacture a phone of a different design with a replaceable battery, the same resources would last longer, and hence be utilised more efficiently.

Joe Hockey,

Quote:

The age of entitlement is over.

Well Joe,
I feel untitled to the pension after working all my life &
paying taxes for other people to have the pension.


http://www.ozpolitic.com/album/forum-attachments/Soylent_green_Hockey_b.jpg

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 8:43am:

John Smith wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 8:17am: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 2:36am: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:15pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:06pm: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:03pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:55pm: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:24pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:21pm: Bam wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:18pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:15pm: Let's just tax the lazy, worthless Greens who never contribute to society but see fit to block roads, disrupt people trying to go about their lives and generally waste our time while getting a nice govt dole payment? Let's just tax the lazy, worthless idle rich who never contribute to society. Yeah, they don't do much - just mortgage their homes to start the business at considerable risk to themselves then employ staff and thereby help the community prosper. Lousy bludgers! Rather than share the load you want to cripple small businesses. Every person that pays abbott's doctor tax spends less in the retail sector. Welcome to life under the carbon tax, where things like electricity cost more and prevent people from spending as much (or at all) at shops. People were compensated to a greater amount of the levy and so people still spent in small businesses. Small business didn't suffer the turndown that Abbott's doctor tax will cause. How many small businesses have to go under before Abbott stops his Tax War against them? Not fully compensated. And no compensation for Abbott's Medical Treatment Tax. That will strip money out of the retail economy, out of small businesses and sending some to the wall. Less revenue from the GST and higher unemployment. Abbott's medical treatment tax is a killer. Why is compensation even needed for a tax? Absurd: collect it with one hand, give back with another. What's the point, then? Proof the carbon tax is a useless, costly lie. and there you go proving my point again .... now you're complaining about the need for compensation, while your comment before that was that the compensation wasn't enough ......  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D you have no idea do you? It's you who has no idea. I said that people aren't fully compensated, not that the compensation isn't enough. BIG difference. There shouldn't need to be compensation, or else the purpose of the tax (which is to make things like electricity more expensive in the hope we'll use it less) becomes nothing more than a very expensive and pointless added burden on Australians.

the tax isn't about the people you twat ... its not supposed to affect the people either way ....its purpose is to give companies that are polluting a reason to not pollute... guess what happens if a comapny that has to pay $1m in carbon tax suddenly switched to green energy?

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2014 at 7:21pm:

Bam wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:18pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:15pm: Let's just tax the lazy, worthless Greens who never contribute to society but see fit to block roads, disrupt people trying to go about their lives and generally waste our time while getting a nice govt dole payment? Let's just tax the lazy, worthless idle rich who never contribute to society. Yeah, they don't do much - just mortgage their homes to start the business at considerable risk to themselves then employ staff and thereby help the community prosper. Lousy bludgers!

A few do - most don't.  They borrow on an apparently wide open bank market. If that is not the case, how then do people who are declared bankrupt start up new businesses in no time flat, and while still living in a fine waterfront mansion?

Who pays the banks when these kinds go bust?  Guess.....

John Smith wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 7:19pm:

the tax isn't about the people you twat ... its not supposed to affect the people either way ....its purpose is to give companies that are polluting a reason to not pollute... guess what happens if a comapny that has to pay $1m in carbon tax suddenly switched to green energy?

I'd assume they'd weigh up the cost of switching and what price it was cost consumers. I'm going to hazard a guess that they'll maybe close up shop and try to open up shop in another country or more likely stock holders will bail and invest their money in other industries probably inflate the housing bubble some more. They may choose to stay invested in this form of energy or sell it off either way whoever tries to will just pass on the cost to consumers, cut down on employees where possible (automation if it would help) and blame it on the government.

OR they may switch to alternative energies but that's only if their research comes back showing stock holders and CEOs a good Return On Investment and that the technology is cost effective and efficient enough.

Vuk11 wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 7:51pm:

John Smith wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 7:19pm: the tax isn't about the people you twat ... its not supposed to affect the people either way ....its purpose is to give companies that are polluting a reason to not pollute... guess what happens if a comapny that has to pay $1m in carbon tax suddenly switched to green energy? I'd assume they'd weigh up the cost of switching and what price it was cost consumers. I'm going to hazard a guess that they'll maybe close up shop and try to open up shop in another country or more likely stock holders will bail and invest their money in other industries probably inflate the housing bubble some more. They may choose to stay invested in this form of energy or sell it off either way whoever tries to will just pass on the cost to consumers, cut down on employees where possible (automation if it would help) and blame it on the government. OR they may switch to alternative energies but that's only if their research comes back showing stock holders and CEOs a good Return On Investment and that the technology is cost effective and efficient enough.

you didn't answer the question .... the answer is? ...

and no company shut shop and moved o'seas because of the carbon tax so you can forget that line.

I honestly think Australia should stop the family bickering. Stop the toadying to other nations. Get itself an intervention and start behaving like the family it somewhat used to be. Treat itself like an extended family working for each others benefit. If we keep this crazy capitalist/socialist nonsense going we will rip ourselves apart. We have to be both.

When I was a kid, every child was given a 1/3 pint of milk at school and the immunisation buses would come around for polio shots. There were many other thing that would be just "unaffordable" today. We could afford it, we can now, we are no less poor as a nation. Now we can afford nothing because personal wealth/greed is more important. We are no longer a national family in it together for the long haul and internal divorce is the creed. I hate it after seeing what we were and were capable of. Yes I'm a leftie but I didn't grow up that way, I was forced that way over the years. My grandfather was the National Secretary of the(defunct) Country Party. The ABC was his channel of choice. We as a nation, following US trends(neocons) rather than making our own way would have him rolling in his grave. Not to mention what the Nationals have become. He hated the idea of(coalition) and saw the writing on the wall of the Country Party(Nationals) becoming powerless tools of a city Liberal Party. I'm almost glad I don't have too many years ahead of me. :'(

We need to be better than this "me" outlook(inlook).

I personally cannot recall when we were asked if the nation should be run as a Business instead of a Commonwealth, can you?
Somehow that's become the way it is, and everything is now measured in dollars instead of need and right and good.
And I too remember those little bottles of milk at school, with HORROR! I'm lactose intolerant and used to be punished severely for refusing to drink them, lol. Even throwing up on the nuns did me no good, only got me more whacks! But it was the only good thing about them for me!
:D

John Smith wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 7:19pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 8:43am: John Smith wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 8:17am: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 2:36am: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:15pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:06pm: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:03pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:55pm: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:24pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:21pm: Bam wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:18pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:15pm: Let's just tax the lazy, worthless Greens who never contribute to society but see fit to block roads, disrupt people trying to go about their lives and generally waste our time while getting a nice govt dole payment? Let's just tax the lazy, worthless idle rich who never contribute to society. Yeah, they don't do much - just mortgage their homes to start the business at considerable risk to themselves then employ staff and thereby help the community prosper. Lousy bludgers! Rather than share the load you want to cripple small businesses. Every person that pays abbott's doctor tax spends less in the retail sector. Welcome to life under the carbon tax, where things like electricity cost more and prevent people from spending as much (or at all) at shops. People were compensated to a greater amount of the levy and so people still spent in small businesses. Small business didn't suffer the turndown that Abbott's doctor tax will cause. How many small businesses have to go under before Abbott stops his Tax War against them? Not fully compensated. And no compensation for Abbott's Medical Treatment Tax. That will strip money out of the retail economy, out of small businesses and sending some to the wall. Less revenue from the GST and higher unemployment. Abbott's medical treatment tax is a killer. Why is compensation even needed for a tax? Absurd: collect it with one hand, give back with another. What's the point, then? Proof the carbon tax is a useless, costly lie. and there you go proving my point again .... now you're complaining about the need for compensation, while your comment before that was that the compensation wasn't enough ......  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D you have no idea do you? It's you who has no idea. I said that people aren't fully compensated, not that the compensation isn't enough. BIG difference. There shouldn't need to be compensation, or else the purpose of the tax (which is to make things like electricity more expensive in the hope we'll use it less) becomes nothing more than a very expensive and pointless added burden on Australians. the tax isn't about the people you twat ... its not supposed to affect the people either way ....its purpose is to give companies that are polluting a reason to not pollute... guess what happens if a comapny that has to pay $1m in carbon tax suddenly switched to green energy?

It actually is, you twat! Even former PM Dillard admitted it was supposed to make electricity more expensive in the hope people would use it less and somehow save the environment in the process.

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 7:51am:

John Smith wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 7:19pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 8:43am: John Smith wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 8:17am: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 2:36am: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:15pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:06pm: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:03pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:55pm: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:24pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:21pm: Bam wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:18pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:15pm: Let's just tax the lazy, worthless Greens who never contribute to society but see fit to block roads, disrupt people trying to go about their lives and generally waste our time while getting a nice govt dole payment? Let's just tax the lazy, worthless idle rich who never contribute to society. Yeah, they don't do much - just mortgage their homes to start the business at considerable risk to themselves then employ staff and thereby help the community prosper. Lousy bludgers! Rather than share the load you want to cripple small businesses. Every person that pays abbott's doctor tax spends less in the retail sector. Welcome to life under the carbon tax, where things like electricity cost more and prevent people from spending as much (or at all) at shops. People were compensated to a greater amount of the levy and so people still spent in small businesses. Small business didn't suffer the turndown that Abbott's doctor tax will cause. How many small businesses have to go under before Abbott stops his Tax War against them? Not fully compensated. And no compensation for Abbott's Medical Treatment Tax. That will strip money out of the retail economy, out of small businesses and sending some to the wall. Less revenue from the GST and higher unemployment. Abbott's medical treatment tax is a killer. Why is compensation even needed for a tax? Absurd: collect it with one hand, give back with another. What's the point, then? Proof the carbon tax is a useless, costly lie. and there you go proving my point again .... now you're complaining about the need for compensation, while your comment before that was that the compensation wasn't enough ......  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D you have no idea do you? It's you who has no idea. I said that people aren't fully compensated, not that the compensation isn't enough. BIG difference. There shouldn't need to be compensation, or else the purpose of the tax (which is to make things like electricity more expensive in the hope we'll use it less) becomes nothing more than a very expensive and pointless added burden on Australians. the tax isn't about the people you twat ... its not supposed to affect the people either way ....its purpose is to give companies that are polluting a reason to not pollute... guess what happens if a comapny that has to pay $1m in carbon tax suddenly switched to green energy? It actually is, you twat! Even former PM Dillard admitted it was supposed to make electricity more expensive in the hope people would use it less and somehow save the environment in the process.

it would make people look for cheaper alternatives, I'm not sure about you, but I'm always looking for cheaper alternatives ... if electricvity goes up, the alternatives look better ... carbon tax or o carbon tax,  either way they were compensated so the effect to them was negligible .... it was about making business stop polluting

John Smith wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 8:04am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 25th, 2014 at 7:51am: John Smith wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 7:19pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 8:43am: John Smith wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 8:17am: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 2:36am: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:15pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:06pm: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:03pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:55pm: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:24pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:21pm: Bam wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:18pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:15pm: Let's just tax the lazy, worthless Greens who never contribute to society but see fit to block roads, disrupt people trying to go about their lives and generally waste our time while getting a nice govt dole payment? Let's just tax the lazy, worthless idle rich who never contribute to society. Yeah, they don't do much - just mortgage their homes to start the business at considerable risk to themselves then employ staff and thereby help the community prosper. Lousy bludgers! Rather than share the load you want to cripple small businesses. Every person that pays abbott's doctor tax spends less in the retail sector. Welcome to life under the carbon tax, where things like electricity cost more and prevent people from spending as much (or at all) at shops. People were compensated to a greater amount of the levy and so people still spent in small businesses. Small business didn't suffer the turndown that Abbott's doctor tax will cause. How many small businesses have to go under before Abbott stops his Tax War against them? Not fully compensated. And no compensation for Abbott's Medical Treatment Tax. That will strip money out of the retail economy, out of small businesses and sending some to the wall. Less revenue from the GST and higher unemployment. Abbott's medical treatment tax is a killer. Why is compensation even needed for a tax? Absurd: collect it with one hand, give back with another. What's the point, then? Proof the carbon tax is a useless, costly lie. and there you go proving my point again .... now you're complaining about the need for compensation, while your comment before that was that the compensation wasn't enough ......  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D you have no idea do you? It's you who has no idea. I said that people aren't fully compensated, not that the compensation isn't enough. BIG difference. There shouldn't need to be compensation, or else the purpose of the tax (which is to make things like electricity more expensive in the hope we'll use it less) becomes nothing more than a very expensive and pointless added burden on Australians. the tax isn't about the people you twat ... its not supposed to affect the people either way ....its purpose is to give companies that are polluting a reason to not pollute... guess what happens if a comapny that has to pay $1m in carbon tax suddenly switched to green energy? It actually is, you twat! Even former PM Dillard admitted it was supposed to make electricity more expensive in the hope people would use it less and somehow save the environment in the process. it would make people look for cheaper alternatives, I'm not sure about you, but I'm always looking for cheaper alternatives ... if electricvity goes up, the alternatives look better ... carbon tax or o carbon tax,  either way they were compensated so the effect to them was negligible .... it was about making business stop polluting

What's the alternative? A hamster and a wheel?

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 8:09am:

John Smith wrote on Apr 25th, 2014 at 8:04am: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 25th, 2014 at 7:51am: John Smith wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 7:19pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 8:43am: John Smith wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 8:17am: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 24th, 2014 at 2:36am: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:15pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:06pm: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 8:03pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:55pm: ____ wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:24pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:21pm: Bam wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:18pm: Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 7:15pm: Let's just tax the lazy, worthless Greens who never contribute to society but see fit to block roads, disrupt people trying to go about their lives and generally waste our time while getting a nice govt dole payment? Let's just tax the lazy, worthless idle rich who never contribute to society. Yeah, they don't do much - just mortgage their homes to start the business at considerable risk to themselves then employ staff and thereby help the community prosper. Lousy bludgers! Rather than share the load you want to cripple small businesses. Every person that pays abbott's doctor tax spends less in the retail sector. Welcome to life under the carbon tax, where things like electricity cost more and prevent people from spending as much (or at all) at shops. People were compensated to a greater amount of the levy and so people still spent in small businesses. Small business didn't suffer the turndown that Abbott's doctor tax will cause. How many small businesses have to go under before Abbott stops his Tax War against them? Not fully compensated. And no compensation for Abbott's Medical Treatment Tax. That will strip money out of the retail economy, out of small businesses and sending some to the wall. Less revenue from the GST and higher unemployment. Abbott's medical treatment tax is a killer. Why is compensation even needed for a tax? Absurd: collect it with one hand, give back with another. What's the point, then? Proof the carbon tax is a useless, costly lie. and there you go proving my point again .... now you're complaining about the need for compensation, while your comment before that was that the compensation wasn't enough ......  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D you have no idea do you? It's you who has no idea. I said that people aren't fully compensated, not that the compensation isn't enough. BIG difference. There shouldn't need to be compensation, or else the purpose of the tax (which is to make things like electricity more expensive in the hope we'll use it less) becomes nothing more than a very expensive and pointless added burden on Australians. the tax isn't about the people you twat ... its not supposed to affect the people either way ....its purpose is to give companies that are polluting a reason to not pollute... guess what happens if a comapny that has to pay $1m in carbon tax suddenly switched to green energy? It actually is, you twat! Even former PM Dillard admitted it was supposed to make electricity more expensive in the hope people would use it less and somehow save the environment in the process. it would make people look for cheaper alternatives, I'm not sure about you, but I'm always looking for cheaper alternatives ... if electricvity goes up, the alternatives look better ... carbon tax or o carbon tax,  either way they were compensated so the effect to them was negligible .... it was about making business stop polluting What's the alternative? A hamster and a wheel?

you can't possibly be thhaaaat thick can you?

Ok, I take that back, it's obvious you are!

John Smith wrote on Apr 24^th, 2014 at 10:38pm:

you didn't answer the question .... the answer is? ... and no company shut shop and moved o'seas because of the carbon tax so you can forget that line.

The answer is if they transferred to Green technology they wouldn't have to pay the tax!

However that's not the issue, the issue is what the tax will do to everyone and what business' response will be, something I think the Greens can't seem to comprehend.

Yes no company has so far shut up shop, maybe they will when it's raised from 22% to 40%? (As Christine Milne proposes)

We can't deny that those industries have encountered a decent halt due to these taxes and if they were worse you'd see more lay offs, more automation, higher prices, less investment in this country.

I mean think of it like this you are an investor your options:
- Invest in now expensive Coal/mining with a crap ROI (in Australia)
- Invest in Green industries that are expensive and by analysis not worth the investment ((in Australia))
- Invest in another country that isn't highly taxed and regulated?

10 points for the obvious answer!

The truth is government planning fails, governments trying to take from one sector and invest in other never has the effect they hope it does, Keynes was wrong and he was going to change his opinion on these matters however he died before he got the chance.

The truth is the most free economies are the most prosperous and we are headed away from that prosperity with every regulation, every tax and every malinvested subsidy.

Vuk11 wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 12:39pm:

However that's not the issue, the issue is what the tax will do to everyone and what business' response will be, something I think the Greens can't seem to comprehend.

that is exactly the issue ... that is the whole purpose of the tax ..to entice companies to switch to greener energy ..........  its not to raise revenue, thats a bonus, its not to make electricity dearer for joe blow it was to create a motivation to seek alternatives  ...

PS, don't mistake me for a greenie ..... they're a bunch of tree hugging lunatics who wouldn't know their butts from their heads

Vuk11 wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 12:39pm:

Yes no company has so far shut up shop, maybe they will when it's raised from 22% to 40%? (As Christine Milne proposes)

that was never going to happen ... it was going to revert to a market based system

Vuk11 wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 12:39pm:

I mean think of it like this you are an investor your options:- Invest in now expensive Coal/mining with a crap ROI (in Australia)- Invest in Green industries that are expensive and by analysis not worth the investment ((in Australia))- Invest in another country that isn't highly taxed and regulated?10 points for the obvious answer

I would, and do, invest in greener energy .. its the way of the future ..

its not a question of if, but when

John Smith wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 12:47pm:

I would, and do, invest in greener energy .. its the way of the future .. its not a question of if, but when

I agree that Oil/Coal will die off (obviously supply dictates that)
However IMO from the posts I've made it should be clear to people that business will not so easily take on a costly venture.

I've always put forward that you get that prosperity and wealth first, then you can invest in new things. These taxes reduce investment and reduce expansion, harm employees and harm consumers, I would be curious to hear though how many would instantly swap over to green technology.

Vuk11 wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 12:55pm:

I've always put forward that you get that prosperity and wealth first, then you can invest in new things

I think telstra is a classic example of how that does not work  ... our internet system is crap ... 3rd world countries have better internet than us and have had for years ... all the while we pay some of the highest access rates in the world ... ridiculous

sometimes govt. needs to get involved to get things happening.

John Smith wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 1:17pm:

I think telstra is a classic example of how that does not work  ... our internet system is crap ... 3rd world countries have better internet than us and have had for years ... all the while we pay some of the highest access rates in the world ... ridiculous sometimes govt. needs to get involved to get things happening.

AFAIK Telstra was pretty much given a monopoly by the government?
Also I still haven't found out what is stopping the world from coming in and competing? I have a feeling it's regulations.

I mean there is a large demand for Fibre in this country, if no one is going to build it here then why are no companies over seas that have already provided Fibre to their customers not trying to do the same here? What's stopping them!?  :D

Vuk11 wrote on Apr 25^th, 2014 at 1:43pm:

John Smith wrote on Apr 25th, 2014 at 1:17pm: I think telstra is a classic example of how that does not work  ... our internet system is crap ... 3rd world countries have better internet than us and have had for years ... all the while we pay some of the highest access rates in the world ... ridiculous sometimes govt. needs to get involved to get things happening. AFAIK Telstra was pretty much given a monopoly by the government? Also I still haven't found out what is stopping the world from coming in and competing? I have a feeling it's regulations. I mean there is a large demand for Fibre in this country, if no one is going to build it here then why are no companies over seas that have already provided Fibre to their customers not trying to do the same here? What's stopping them!?  :D

You can't dig a trench and lay cable wherever you want. Unless they want to cough up for huge start up bills they're going to have to lease capacity from Telstra whose pricing will result in comparable costs to the consumer anyway. If they do want to go it alone then again we will end up paying the same as they have to recover the cost of their investment - that's if they can get govt approval for digging the place up.
There's also no need for us to have monthly download limits, yet because we've had them since the beginning, we just accept them. Telstra ripped us off with that one and NBNco continue to do so.