16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message

4:79-80 Say: ‘Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."

17:53-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe.... Hence, we have not sent you with power to determine their Faith

24.54. Say: "Obey God, and obey the Messenger, but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

42:6 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach

64:12 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.

28.55-56 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away there from and say: "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we seek not the ignorant," It is true thou wilt not be able to guide whom thou lovest; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance

39:41 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.

67:25 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner."


As we can clearly see, many of the verses that talks about obeying the prophet also emphasizes the prophet's limited authority, something that the Islamic sects do not recognize. The ruler to them has the authority to punish people for what they consider sins like drinking alcohol, eating pork, not fasting Ramadan, watching porn etc.

The Koran meanwhile focuses on crimes against another like stealing, killing, slandering of women falsely and oppression. It gave the believers the right to fight against those who fight them but not to transgress. It also gave people the right to defend themselves against evictions from their lands. There is no talk about punishing people for something that does not concern somebody else right.

Adultery is the only place where the Koran diverted from this due to the fact that a adultery affects another party. Here the Koran sees adultery as affecting the other partner in a marriage. It’s a betrayal and a breaking of oath. But even then it placed strict standards on that but was lenient when it came to punishing slanders of women. Adultery needs four witnesses but the slander can get punished just from opening his mouth without four witnesses. It’s clear that the verse made it very difficult to implement on adultery but very easy to implement on the slanderer. Further reading of the verse about the Zani and Zania shows us that the issue came up concerning slandering of one of the prophet’s wife presumably. But adultery still affects another party as its a breaking of an oath between a man and a woman and is an act of betrayal.

The Koran cannot order the prophet to punish people for sins, that God's job. The Koran gave people the right and freedom to disbelieve let alone sin. Plus how the Koran understands sins is very different than how the sects understand sins.

In the end the sects had no choice but to abrogate many of these verses, usually invoking the "sword verse". They claim that many of these verses that gave the prophet limited authority(over those who chose to disobey him) has been abrogated by verse 9-5 or verse 9-29.

However these verses were about the wars with the pagans, and verse 9-13 and many other verses makes it clear who instigated these battles and why. The Jizya verse (9-29) also was claimed by the sects to be a tax to be paid by non Muslims in an Islamic state for protection. However Jizya never came concerning the Medina community where the prophet and his followers had a community. And only came upon the believers entering of Mecca. Jizya could have easily been compensation for the loss of property and homes that the believers suffered after being forced into exile. The Koran forbade prophets from seeking any form of reward. They can however accept charity on behalf of the believers.

But the Sunnah claimed otherwise. In it the prophet was ordered to fight the people till they acknowledge monotheism and also in it the prophet ordered the execution of those who apostate.

That’s why they abrogated many of the verses that limited his authority. Then they simply transferred that authority to the Muslim ruler by default. Rather than question the hadiths that contradicts the Quran, they abrogated any Quranic verses that contradicted the hadiths. The Ridda war story about Abu Bakr is a case study of this. In that story Abu Bakr apparently fought people for not paying Zakat. Now the authority (to force people to follow Islam and its commands) was transferred from God to the prophet to one of his companions. This made it very easy to then transfer that authority to the ruler. This is why you see places where Shariah law is implemented filled with such concepts like searching cars for alcohol or flogging people for watching pornos or not wearing proper attire. None of this should concern anyone but it has become a punishable sin. According to these sects, God only punishes those who did not get caught and punished in this world. The sects claimed that once punished the sin falls away and disappears. You will not find such a concept in the Koran. There God punishes in a million ways and does not need humans to punish for him. I think the sects introduced this concept to make people more accepting of this by making them think its better for them since God's punishment is more severe. They also introduced stoning the adulterer by claiming the Zina verse in the Koran is concerning fornification and not adultery. They claimed that the verse about stoning was lost and is not included in the Koran but the ruling remains.

This of course violated not only the freedom aspect of the Koran but also an eye for an eye and a life for a life. In the Koran, any punishment must be reciprocal and proportionate to the crime and it also must be targeted towards the actual perpetrators of the crime and not someone else associated to the criminal as the case with tribal laws that simply targets anyone from that tribe. They broke this by lower the bar for executions. Some Sunni scholars also gave the authority to execute homosexuals and enslave female prisoners and execute male prisoners. Something the Koran forbade. The Koran gave two options for prisoners, either freedom or ransom of some sort. They gave this authority to the ruler where he can either let a prisoner go free or order his execution. By creating stories about the prophet, they now can transfer that authority to the Muslim ruler by default. Through out Islam's history, Sultans have invaded other territories and imposed taxes and traded in slavery claiming that this is the Sunnah and Shariah. This is all very sad as the taking of someone’s life is no easy matter in the Koran. God should take life and not humans, but if a person takes a life then he lost his right to live, but even then the Koran gave exile from the community as another option for murder especially if the person shows repentance. So an eye for an eye and a tooth for tooth somehow ended up being an eye for an eye lash and a tooth for a jaw. A good example of that is how the sects believe that those who steal should have their hand amputated sometimes for as little as ten dinars. A hand for a hand (proportional justice) became a hand for ten dinars (disproportionate justice).

To be fair the Sunni orthodoxy rarely practiced some of these laws. We know of no time in history where adulterers were stoned to death. Apostasy was rarely practiced, unlike the Christians in Europe that practiced these laws abundantly.  So the Sunni jurist knew that some of these laws could be controversial and therefore they tended to avoid them. They knew questions might be raised as to why these laws are not in the Quran etc.

Its very unfortunate the current Islamist in Iran and Sudan and the Salafis in generally never understood why these laws were controversial. But in doing so they exposed many aspect of the Sunni/ Shia sects that people were not aware of. The Sufis provided a convenient cover as they shunned legalism. But the clerics also understood that these laws were controversial. Its not easy in Islam to execute outside of murder because people expect that capital punishment should be stipulated in the Quran. But this wise tradition was broken. That’s very unfortunate as now we see the culture of death has spread among Muslims till Islam became synonymous with violence and killing. Once you lower the bar it spirals out of control.

One thing is crystal clear from all this. The Koran's take on human authority and freedom is RADICALLY different than how the Sunni/Shia sects understand it. Therefore the biggest difference between a Koranic state and a Sunni or Shia state will come in the form of the state's authority over the masses. It is this, more than anything else, that separates the Koran from the Sunnah. That’s why the Abbasids championed the Sunnah over the Mutazilites. The Mutaziltes couldn't find the ink in the Koran to give them such draconian authority. The sects did that by first bringing the divine authority from God to prophet, then prophet to Caliph (companions) and now that authority is in Omar Al Bashir, Khamenei, Mullah Omar and Al Saud. And that’s very sad.

"Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).
And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"
Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan."
Koran 4.74-76

Your obligation as a moslem, is to Allah, and to 'struggle' in his cause.




"O Prophet! strive hard against...the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell...
They swear by Allah that they said nothing (evil), but indeed they uttered blasphemy, and they did it after accepting Islam...Allah will punish them...
Amongst them are men who made a covenant with Allah...
But when He did bestow of His bounty, they became covetous, and turned back (from their covenant), averse (from its fulfilment).
So He hath put as a consequence hypocrisy into their hearts, (to last) till the Day, whereon they shall meet Him: because they broke their covenant with Allah, and because they lied (again and again).
Know they not that Allah doth know their secret (thoughts) and their secret counsels, and that Allah knoweth well all things unseen?
...Whether thou ask for their forgiveness, or not, (their sin is unforgivable): if thou ask seventy times for their forgiveness, Allah will not forgive them: because they have rejected Allah and His Messenger: and Allah guideth not those who are perversely rebellious."
Koran 9.73-85

Allah expresses his disdain for 'hypocrites', and for those insincere, and inconsistent, or 'fair weather', moslems.



"Behold! when they meet the men of Faith, they say: "We believe"...
Know they not that Allah knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal?
And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires..."
Koran 2.76-78

i.e. Allah himself declares, that many of those who call themselves 'believers' [moslems], ...are often the worst of liars!




+++

The principle dictum which ISLAM imposes upon the moslem psyche.....

"....those who are not like us must be enslaved or murdered."



"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98


"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11


"Fighting [against unbelievers] is prescribed for you, and [if] ye dislike it.....Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Koran 2.216


"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123


"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111


"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29





+++

FROM THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED

"A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause." "
hadith/bukhari #004.052.065
hadith/bukhari #004.052.080i


"Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." "
hadith/bukhari #001.002.025


"...the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

Bigmo wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 5:51am:

.....They also introduced stoning the adulterer by claiming the Zina verse in the Koran is concerning fornification and not adultery. They claimed that the verse about stoning was lost and is not included in the Koran but the ruling remains.

'They', 'they' ?

Don't you know, if the Koran is inerrant ?



Bigmo,

If you are a moslem, and if the above is correct, then shouldn't moslems 1st decide amongst themselves [i.e. shouldn't moslems AGREE amongst themselves], what ISLAM really teaches - to the moslem - before moslems seek to invite infidels to come into your [moslem] community ?

Or is that too difficult ?

To me, if moslems reject this [my] suggestion, then moslems are only seeking to spread confusion [about ISLAM] in the world.




Bigmo,

If you are a moslem, please, take your religion, and make a worthy society - with your religion - so that all moslems can see your virtue.

But please, seek to make your worthy [moslem] society, 1st, in a moslem land, e.g. perhaps Saudi Arabia ?

So that all of us infidels can stand in awe, of your [moslem] perfection among men!

Then we infidels would willingly convert to your religion.

bigmo=Peter waldo?

Can you please include a link or URL when you copy and paste large tracts of text from elsewhere? If you have difficulty posting it, try removing the www part.

It looks like it is his own work FD. He's posted it on other forums, but it seems to be the same author.

Bigmo wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 5:48am:

16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message 4:79-80 Say: ‘Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper.".......

"It is Allah Who made out of the things He created, some things to give you shade; of the hills He made some for your shelter; He made you garments to protect you from heat, and coats of mail to protect you from your (mutual) violence. Thus does He complete His favours on you, that ye may bow to His Will (in Islam).
But if they turn away, thy duty is only to preach the clear Message.
They recognise the favours of Allah; then they deny them; and most of them are (creatures) ungrateful.
One Day We shall raise from all Peoples a Witness: then will no excuse be accepted from Unbelievers, nor will they receive any favours.
When the wrong-doers (actually) see the Penalty, then will it in no way be mitigated, nor will they then receive respite."
Koran 16.81-85





"We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger..."

Sure.         :D

At an 'appropriate' time, quote the 'soft words' from the Koran, ambiguous words to speak, so as to confuse the [IGNORANT, UNINFORMED] Kafir.



"ISLAM, is peace."       .....too!          :P




+++








Google;
jihad is the pinnacle of islam





Quote:

Physical jihad is the pinnacle of Islam, and some scholars regarded it as the sixth pillar of Islam. June 13, 2013 · by muwahhidmedia · in Jihad      · 2 Comments The Muslims have neglected jihad for a long time, so they deserve the punishment of Allah, to be humiliated, belittled and defeated. That humiliation will never be lifted from them until they come back to their religion as the Prophet (salla Allahu alayhi wa salam) said: .......One of the strangest things to note is that we are living in a time when some of the Muslims are embarrassed to quote the verses and ahadith on jihad in front of their kaafir friends. Their faces turn red because they are too shy to mention the rulings on the djizyah, slavery and killing prisoners of war. They wish that they could erase these verses and ahadith from the Qur’aan and Sunnah so that they would not be criticized by this world with its backward principles despite its claims to be civilized. If they cannot erase them then they try to misinterpret them and distort their meanings so that they suit the whims and desires of their masters. I will not say so that they suit their whims and desires, for they are too weak to have their own whims and desires, and too ignorant. Rather it is the whims and desires of their masters and teachers among the missionaries and colonialists, the enemies of Islam.”

http://muwahhidmedia.com/2013/06/13/physical-jihad-is-the-pinnacle-of-islam-and-some-scholars-regarded-it-as-the-sixth-pillar-of-islam/






"Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.
They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-"
Koran 4.88, 89


"Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"
Koran 4.95

i.e. Religious fighting is an obligation for all moslems.
Allah views with disdain those who avoid this obligation to him.
see also, Koran 2.76-78,  Koran 9.73-85




"O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.
Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them nor guide them on the way.
To the Hypocrites give the glad tidings that there is for them (but) a grievous penalty;-
Yea, to those who take for friends unbelievers rather than believers [are themselves 'hypocrites',  i.e. not moslems]...
...Allah will collect the hypocrites and those who defy faith - all in Hell:-"
Koran 4.136-140


and more, and more, and more.....

wally1 wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 11:59am:

bigmo=Peter waldo?

bigmo is an ISLAMIST, a flag which will turn in the political wind.

A deceiver of ignorant Kafir.



"ISLAM, is peace."


True, pure, moslems only come to you with the 'message', with the 'invitation', to embrace ISLAM's peace...

"We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger..."


Honest!!!!       :P

Yadda wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 10:45am:

To me, if moslems reject this [my] suggestion, then moslems are only seeking to spread confusion [about ISLAM] in the world.

To me too, Y. If these Moslems don’t agree with you, who will?

Karnal wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 8:29pm:

Yadda wrote on Apr 22nd, 2014 at 10:45am: To me, if moslems reject this [my] suggestion, then moslems are only seeking to spread confusion [about ISLAM] in the world. To me too, Y. If these Moslems don’t agree with you, who will?

The proposition which i suggested;

Quote:

....shouldn't moslems 1st decide amongst themselves [i.e. shouldn't moslems AGREE amongst themselves], what ISLAM really teaches - to the moslem - before moslems seek to invite infidels to come into your [moslem] community ?

....a proposition which K seeks to 'mask' with 'befuddlement'.






A reasoned proposition is utterly outrageous to your psyche, K.

I don't see a good end for you.        [.....K, don't let the words i use get you excited again!]



Your 'end', K....

Psalms 7:15
He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made.




+++




If you want to destroy a society, then destroy its 'value system', and undermine confidence in the integrity of the institutions which service its systems.

And destroy the essence of confidence and harmony which its people enjoy.

Create confusion and self doubt, foster the belief that the problems which are faced by this society, consist of 'unreasonable' and 'unresolvable' contradictions which are bound to overwhelm the 'good' of the society.





+++

If one wishes to enslave people, constrain their capacity for independent thought - not their hands; for the chain of dependence is incomparably stronger than the chain of iron.
- ?

None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely  believe they are free.
Goethe

Serving one's own passions is the greatest slavery.
Thomas Fuller

The difference between a free man and a slave is that a slave values his life more than his freedom...
John Norman

All is mystery; but he is a slave who will not struggle to penetrate the dark veil.
Benjamin Disraeli



There is nothing that is wrong, that cannot be corrected, by choosing to do what is right.

Sometimes that [doing what is right] will involve loss and sacrifice.

Unfortunately, many here have a neoconish understanding of Islam. The post 9-11 Islam narrative. In many ways I can not blame them. However I will say this, what I was saying was understood by many secular historians who saw Sharia law as a later development in Islam and not a true representation of the Islam Muhammad and the early generations of Muslims practiced.

Prof Herbert Berg PhD summarized some of the Western secular historians interpretations of the development of Sharia and the vast majority of secular historians saw Sharia law as a later development. My main concern however is what the Quran has to say.

However I detected some have raised the issue of the Quran and warfare. The Quran only recognizes defensive war and not offensive war as the sects understand it.

Many religions become in time what is called organized religions and develops an orthodoxy. Islam was no different. However we must not assume that either the Quran or  Muhammad understood the religion the way many Muslims do.

I will elaborate on the Quran and warfare later as I am busy now.

Regards.

Yadda wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2014 at 9:15pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 22nd, 2014 at 8:29pm: Yadda wrote on Apr 22nd, 2014 at 10:45am: To me, if moslems reject this [my] suggestion, then moslems are only seeking to spread confusion [about ISLAM] in the world. To me too, Y. If these Moslems don’t agree with you, who will? The proposition which i suggested; Quote: ....shouldn't moslems 1st decide amongst themselves [i.e. shouldn't moslems AGREE amongst themselves], what ISLAM really teaches - to the moslem - before moslems seek to invite infidels to come into your [moslem] community ? ....a proposition which K seeks to 'mask' with 'befuddlement'. A reasoned proposition is utterly outrageous to your psyche, K. I don't see a good end for you.        [.....K, don't let the words i use get you excited again!]

Me neither, Y. Christians aren't perfect, you see, just forgiven. Judge not, that ye surely shall be judged.

Moslems should do what you say, Y, lest they end up in that pit you describe. Will they? Not on your life!

They'd prefer to ignore your words and go on worshipping a false idol and not even have the decency to agree on their religion so they can tell you what's what.

You know what these people are, Y? Kuffirs. Who is the Kuffir?

You, Mr Moslem, you are the kuffir!

I don't hold out any hope for them, Y. If they can't even read your posts and obey, what hope can there be?

That ditch is going to be pretty full come Judgement Day, Y.

Praise the Lord.

Quote:

However I detected some have raised the issue of the Quran and warfare. The Quran only recognizes defensive war and not offensive war as the sects understand it.

According to some Muslims here, Muhammed was waging war on Mecca in the early days by robbing caravans and murdering traders traveling to and from Mecca. How does this fit in with the 'defensive war' narrative? How do you even make sense of 'defensive war'? Muhammed certainly appeared to think that the best defense was a strong and unrelenting offense. He even took to winding up his Jewish allies, to help him identify which ones weren't totally loyal to him.


Quote:

Many religions become in time what is called organized religions and develops an orthodoxy. Islam was no different.

Didn't this happen in the time of Muhammed? He was pretty organised. How does the organisation of Muhammeds successors differ from Muhammed's? Did Muhammed not intend an Islamic Caliphate?

'defensive war' in post #13, by FD



'defensive war', as projected by ISLAM and moslems, seems to always be 'called for' whenever anyone who is not a moslem,
1/ refuses to submit to the will of the moslem [i.e. rejects the 'invitation' to become a moslem],
2/ therefore the person who is not a moslem, is resisting the will of Allah,
3/ therefore  the person who is not a moslem, is a fighting against the implementation of Allah's perfect religion.


ISLAMIC LAW....
"Ibn 'Umar related that the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, said, "I have been ordered to kill the people until they testify that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay the zakah. If they do that, their blood and wealth are protected from me save by the rights of Islam. Their reckoning will be with Allah." (Related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.) "
fiqhussunnah/fus1_06



Therefore 'defending ISLAM' = = legitimately includes initiating hostilities against any person who chooses to reject ISLAM's influence over their life.

i.e.
Hostilities are appropriate, against anyone who is deemed to be resisting the spread of ISLAM's political influence in the local area!




"Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).
And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"
Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan."
Koran 4.74-76

Your obligation as a moslem, is to Allah, and to 'struggle' in his cause.

To bring Allah's 'peace', to all of the world.




Jihad [religious fighting in Allah's cause] is the pinnacle of ISLAM.

Google;
jihad is the pinnacle of islam




+++


Quote:

Creed of the sword Mark Durie September 23, 2006 .....the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh, issued a statement on the official Saudi news service, defending Muslims' divine right to resort to violence: "The spread of Islam has gone through several phases, secret and then public, in Mecca and Medina. God then authorised the faithful to defend themselves and to fight against those fighting them, which amounts to a right legitimised by God. This ... is quite reasonable, and God will not hate it." Saudi Arabia's most senior cleric also explained that war was never Islam's ancient founder, the prophet Mohammed's, first choice: "He gave three options: either accept Islam, or surrender and pay tax, and they will be allowed to remain in their land, observing their religion under the protection of Muslims." Thus, according to the Grand Mufti, the third option of violence against non-Muslims was only a last resort, if they refused to convert or surrender peacefully to the armies of Islam. .......At the beginning, in Mohammed's Meccan period, when he was weaker and his followers few, passages of the Koran encouraged peaceful relations and avoidance of conflict: "Invite (all) to the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious." (16:125) Later, after persecution and emigration to Medina in the first year of the Islamic calendar, authority was given to engage in warfare for defensive purposes only: "Fight in the path of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits, for God does not love transgressors." (2:190) As the Muslim community grew stronger and conflict with its neighbours did not abate, further revelations expanded the licence for waging war, until in Sura 9, regarded as one of the last chapters to be revealed, it is concluded that war against non-Muslims could be waged more or less at any time and in any place to extend the dominance of Islam.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20460114-601,00.html

After 9-11 there has been various debates about Islam. Some have said that the terrorist are Islam's true spoken. The so called moderates practice taqiya. Taqiya is the deliberate lying for the faith. They say Islam is a violent religion that commands Muslims to kill non Muslim. Non Muslims have 3 choices, either they convert, pay the jizya(tax) or die. They say Muhammad was peaceful for PR reasons and once strong showed his true colors and preached violent jihad. They say all the peaceful verses were abrogated after his final victory with this verse:

9.5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

And also this verse:

9.29. Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

This verses are chosen for a reason. When read alone it implies a command to attack until they convert. Of course there are other verses in the Koran that talks about fighting. But why do they tend to focus on this one? Its simple, the other verses tend to show the defensive nature of the jihad and also the malicious intent and behavior of the pagans. Thus never cited. Lets look at some of them:

2.190. Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors

2.191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith

2.193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God, but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression

Also:

2.217. They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein is a grave (offense); but graver is it in the sight of God to prevent access to the path of God, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.

All these verses talks about fighting, however within these verses the defensive nature of the verses and the malicious behavior of the pagans is cited. Thus those who wish to attack Islam never cite those verses. Its a deliberate attempt to hide what the Koran as saying and using selective verses to imply what they know the verses does not mean.

Lets however look at the verse that is often cited. This time we will take the verses before and after it to see what is the context this verse is talking.

9.4. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for God loveth the righteous.

9.5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

6. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge. 7. How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous.


Also in the same chapter it explains the reason behind all of these battles fought

9.13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is God Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!


The verses clearly indicate that no forced conversion was there.There are standards that the Koran established for fighting.

As for such who do not fight you on account of faith, or drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to deal with them with equity, for God loves those who act equitably. God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of faith and drive you forth from your homelands or aid in driving you forth . As for those from among you who turn towards them for alliance, it is they who are wrongdoers. 60:8-9

Permission (to fight) is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged, and verily, God has indeed the power to aid them. Those who have been driven from their homelands in defiance of right for no other reason than their saying, ‘Our Lord is God.’ 22:39-40

These verses show us clearly that the battles the believers fought was purely for defensive purposes as the believers were being persecuted because they believed in the teachings of the Quran. The pagans wanted the Quran to cease to exist and wanted the prophet and his followers to perish. This is why freedom of religion in the Quran is sacrosanct. The Koran more than any other literature guaranteed the absolute right for freedom of belief and expression and thought.


The Koran makes clear the job of the prophet:

16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .

6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.

4:79-80 Say:'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."

11:28 He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If I act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it?°

17:53-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith.

88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

But most of all the Koran asks the prophet himself this question:

10.99-100. If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand

Then again the Quran tells us:

109.1-6 Say : O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine

There is nothing even called conquest in the Koran and there is nothing called paying taxes and offensive war and spreading faith by the sword are not Koranic whatsoever and is a direct disobedience to the orders of the Koran. Jizya in the Quran came when the believers were entering Mecca where they were forced into exile and left their homeland losing their livlihoods, homes and businesses. Jizya was never mentioned except upon the pagans of Mecca. Jizya was a war reparation and compensation for damages. The prophet was in Medina where many non believers lived under his domain but was never ordered to seek Jizya. Later Muslim authorities applied Jizya to anyone living under a Muslim ruler who are not Muslims as a form of tax. This is not the context it appears in the Quran.

So the Sunni/Shia concept that peaceful verses were abrogated by later verses that moved from defensive war to offensive has no backing from the Quran. This is because the permission allowed to fight has been outlined in the Quran. Only when provoked and forced should we fight. The prophet was a victim of religious coercion and persecution for religious propagation.

“The contemporary Islamic al-Azhar influential scholar, Muhammad Sa`id Ramadan al-Buti, says in his well-known research: “The verse (9:5) does not leave any room in the mind to conjecture about what is called defensive war. This verse asserts that holy war which is demanded in Islamic law is not a defensive war, because it could legitimately be an offensive war. That is the apex and most honorable of all Holy wars. Its goal is the exaltation of the word of Allah and the construction of Islamic society and the establishment of Allah’s kingdom on Earth regardless the means. It is legal to carry on an offensive Holy War.” ”

“Al-Suyuti does not see 2:256 abrogated by 9:73, but a case of delaying or postponing the command to fight the infidels until the Muslims become strong. When they were weak, they were commanded to endure and be patient. The first verse that was revealed in the Qur’an about fighting in Medina is Surah 2 verse 190, until Surah 9 was revealed, and it was cancelled by Surah 9 verse 5. ”

So we can see how the Islamic sects abrogated many the defensive war verses claiming verse 9.5 abrogated the defensive war only verses and changed it to offensive war. They believe in this due to the following hadith recorded in Bukhari's and Muslim's collections. Hadiths were compiled two centuries after the Quran was revealed.

Ibn ‘Umar related that the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, said, “I have been ordered to kill the people until they testify that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay the zakah. If they do that, their blood and wealth are protected from me save by the rights

This hadith violates tens of Quranic commands about freedom and defensive war.


In the Quran we see the concept of religious persecution was a hallmark of pagan societies and oppressive tyrants.

They said: "O Shuayb! Much of what thou sayest we do not understand! In fact among us we see that thou hast no strength! Were it not for thy family, we should certainly have stoned thee! For thou hast among us no great position!" 11:91

(The father) replied: "Dost thou hate my gods, O Abraham? If thou forbear not, I will indeed stone thee : now get away from me for a good long while!" .19:46

The (people) said: "For us, We augur an evil omen from you: if ye desist not, we will certainly stone you , or a grievous punishment indeed will be inflicted on you by us." 36:18

They said: "If thou desist not, O Noah! thou shalt be stoned. 26.116

Pharaoh said, "Did you believe in him without my permission? This must be a conspiracy you schemed in the city, in order to take its people away. You will surely find out. "I will cut your hands and feet on alternate sides, then I will crucify you all." 7.123-124

All of these verses tell us how the prophets were persecuted for their religious propogation. The prophet of the Quran met the same fate. He was ordered to fight back and to complete the message of the Quran. But he was also ordered to limit his duty to preaching. If the people decide on him to judge between them than he is to do with justice.

Quran is peace   ;D

Bigmo wrote on May 3^rd, 2014 at 11:16pm:

..... ..... These verses show us clearly that the battles the believers fought was purely for defensive purposes as the believers were being persecuted because they believed in the teachings of the Quran. The pagans wanted the Quran to cease to exist and wanted the prophet and his followers to perish. This is why freedom of religion in the Quran is sacrosanct. The Koran more than any other literature guaranteed the absolute right for freedom of belief and expression and thought.

Bigmo,

Thanks for that.

But somehow, the imam repeatedly has failed to tell it, in the Friday sermons.           :P

Non-moslem places of worship are routinely desecrated and destroyed by ignorant moslems.

I say 'ignorant' moslems, because they are always those moslems who did not get the missive, about freedom of religion being enshrined in the Koran.


Google;
muslims urinate, bibleiMORE.....



Hagia Sophia, in Turkey, was built by Christians.

It is a Christian cathedral.

How many Christians are permitted [by Turkish authorities] to worship in Hagia Sophia ?



"Hagia Sophia.....is a former patriarchal basilica, later a mosque, now a museum in Istanbul, Turkey......It was the largest cathedral ever built in the world for nearly a thousand years....It was the patriarchal church of the Patriarch of Constantinople and the religious focal point of the Eastern Orthodox Church for nearly 1000 years.
In 1453, Constantinople was conquered by the Ottoman Turks and Sultan Mehmed II ordered the building to be converted into the Ayasofya Mosque."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia


Iran: Seven historic synagogues in Tehran destroyed
Tehran, 15 April [2008] (AKI) - Seven ancient synagogues in the Iranian capital, Tehran, have been destroyed by local authorities.
The synagogues were in the Oudlajan suburb of Tehran, where many Iranian Jews used to live.
"These buildings, which were part of our cultural, artistic and architectural heritage were burnt to the ground," said Ahmad Mohit Tabatabaii, the director of the International Council of Museums’ (ICOM) office in Tehran.
"With the excuse of renovating this ancient quarter, they are erasing a part of our history," said Tabatabaii.
http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Religion/?id=1.0.2075294012


16 May 2006
Pressure on multi-faith Malaysia
Malaysia is considering its multi-cultural credentials after a crowd of Muslims on Sunday broke up a meeting called to defend the rights of religious minorities.
...."I'm becoming an alien in Malaysia, in my own country," says Dr Jacob George.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4965580.stm


Destruction of Non-Muslim Worship Centers Riles Faith Minorities in Malaysia
By Sean Yoong for AP:
April 01, 2007
PUTRAJAYA, Malaysia - The cavernous pink Putra Mosque with its soaring minaret is one of the most commanding sights and popular tourist photo backdrops in the new city of Putrajaya.
A house of worship for thousands of Muslims in the 8-year-old administrative capital of Malaysia, it is a showcase of the nation's dominant faith  Islam.
But the mosque also highlights the fact that Putrajaya doesn't have a single church or temple  a fact that minority Buddhists, Hindus and Christians see as one example of the second-class treatment other faiths get in this Muslim-majority country.
http://christianpost.com/article/20070330/destruction-of-non-muslim-worship-centers-riles-faith-minorities-in-malaysia.htm


Church demolished in Muslim-run state [Malaysia]
June 19 2007
Kuala Lumpur - Authorities have demolished a church in a Muslim-ruled state in northeast Malaysia, sparking anger among the indigenous people who say they own the property....
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=126&art_id=nw20070619141302153C420344

Well Muslims are told this is Islam. The sects took over because they were the state religion during the Abbasid empire. The Abbasid ruled for almost 500 hundred years. So many Muslims today are not aware of how these sects emerged. But the internet is spreading a lot of knowledge. Also the violence we see is making many Muslims question what is going wrong.

Many of these hadiths were unknown in the past but because of the invent of printing press and mass media more and more Muslims have access to them. This somewhat explains the rise of violence and fundamentalism in the modern era. But it also exposes the sects like never before.

Bigmo wrote on May 3^rd, 2014 at 11:55pm:

Well Muslims are told this is Islam. The sects took over because they were the state religion during the Abbasid empire. The Abbasid ruled for almost 500 hundred years. So many Muslims today are not aware of how these sects emerged. But the internet is spreading a lot of knowledge. Also the violence we see is making many Muslims question what is going wrong. Many of these hadiths were unknown in the past but because of the invent of printing press and mass media more and more Muslims have access to them. This somewhat explains the rise of violence and fundamentalism in the modern era. But it also exposes the sects like never before.

Actually it exposes what muslims have not been told about the origins of islam from paganism and also the origins of the rituals they follow from paganism.

It's one thing to be told how to think and another trying to stop them from thinking for themselves. Knowledge is power and islam realizes this. That is why it is so strict in control of people. mohammed needed total control for his regime.

Quote:

In the Quran we see the concept of religious persecution was a hallmark of pagan societies and oppressive tyrants.

So how does that differ from Islam? Did Muhammed practice religious persecution in turning up at Medina and within a few years expelling all three big Jewish tribes? What about setting up a state with different legal systems for Muslims and non-Muslims, that put all non-Muslims in a position of inferiority? What about expelling all the pagans from Arabia?


Quote:

Also the violence we see is making many Muslims question what is going wrong.

So this violence didn't exist in Muhammed's time?

Why do these things always seem to be targeted at non-Muslims? When it is Muslims talking to non-Muslims, it's all about how the Muslims are confused and Islam is not really about violence, and they are reforming it as we speak. But when it is Muslims talking to Muslims they are calling each other hypocrites for not being 'conservative' enough, or blowing up each others' mosques, or warily avoiding each other. We saw it here with Abu and Falah, and with Abu and Gandalf. They pretty much refused to talk each other, and Abu even accused me of divisiveness when I tried to talk about their differences. Gandalf spends all his time telling us we misunderstand Islam and it is really all peace and love. He once tried insisting he is having the same argument with Muslims, but when I asked him about it he went all silent. All the talk of reform within Islam is targeted at people who know very little about Islam. It is never targeted at actually reforming Islam.

Yadda wrote on May 3^rd, 2014 at 11:29pm:

But somehow, the imam repeatedly has failed to tell it, in the Friday sermons.           Tongue

Yadda, just one question.

Have you ever been to a Friday Sermon? If not, how would you have any idea what is told on Friday sermons the world over?

Google;
Erdogan, The Mosques are our Barracks, the Domes our helmets, the Minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers


Erdogan = =  Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the moderate moslem Prime Minister of Turkey



Google;
muslim violence, after "friday prayers"


Google;
mosque frequently used as an armoury, militants




Quote:

.....The Mosque in any Muslim community is more than a place of worship. It is also a political and social centre where sermons and lectures against the infidel can be preached. Where responses to perceived slights by the infidel against the Muslim, as in the Cronulla riot of 2005, are also organized such as from the Lakemba Mosque, which has been readily identified as the staging point for the payback raids against the infidel over the following three nights after the riot. The Mosque is used as a platform for every fundamentalist Islamic group, such as Hiz ut-tahir, which is an Islamic sect and is proscribed in several countries as an Islamic terrorist organization, but still has free rein here. The group recently held ‘Muslim Uprising’ events in Sydney to proclaim the coming of the Islamic Caliphate. [3]

http://www.protectionist.net/2012/02/03/what-is-a-mosque/





gandalf,

In answer to your question;

No.

Yadda wrote on May 5^th, 2014 at 9:56am:

gandalf, In answer to your question; No.

Thank you.

Now kindly desist from assuming what is and what isn't talked about in these sermons.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 5^th, 2014 at 10:13am:

Yadda wrote on May 5th, 2014 at 9:56am: gandalf, In answer to your question; No. Thank you. Now kindly desist from assuming what is and what isn't talked about in these sermons.

gandalf,

QUESTION;
What IS frequently talked about in sermons to the lay moslem, in mosques ?

ANSWER;
Inciting hatred of those who are not moslems.

Evidence ???




IN A MOSQUE, IN THE UK, #1,

"What makes Allah happy?
Allah is happy, when kafir get killed."[/size]

Please watch this YT...
Muslims being deceptive Islam EX-Muslims         goto 4m 30s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZx8cNSC9O0




IN A MOSQUE, IN THE UK, #2,

"The Undercover Mosque: The return" [...from the UK]
"A group of Christians visiting the mosque and the preacher and the Women's Circle treat [the Christians] kindly and talk about,
'We're all people of the book and we all come from the same history'."


THE KICKER...
"Just as soon as that group of visitors [the Christians] leaves, the language changes completely. 'CHRISTIANITY IS VILE', the preacher says....."



Source;
ABC Radio National Religion interview transcript  - "The Undercover Mosque: The return"
".....Stephen Crittenden: .....your program highlights a certain kind of duplicity. When they're caught out, individuals don't miss a [beat], they just say they've been taken out of context....
David Henshaw: ......Regent's Park Mosque is officially committed to inter-faith dialogue....."
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/religionreport/the-undercover-mosque/3183906#transcript


The term, "inter-faith dialogue" [as being used by moslems] = = code for "don't frighten the horses" [in the Christian churches].

'We moslems should continue to pretend that our stance towards Christians is;'
'We're all people of the book and we all come from the same history'."





WHAT THE KORAN COMMANDS;

"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them."
Koran 5.51

polite_gandalf wrote on May 5^th, 2014 at 10:13am:

Yadda wrote on May 5th, 2014 at 9:56am: gandalf, In answer to your question; No. Thank you. Now kindly desist from assuming what is and what isn't talked about in these sermons.

Is the only way to find out to turn up?

What do you think FD? Those stories of Yadda wouldn't have got out without someone "turning up" and recording it. How many uncontroversial, non-incriminating sermons do you think those undercover reporters sat through before they found the fun ones?

I guess you'll never have much idea unless you yourself starting "turning up" no? 

I'd prefer to just read it in the paper. I get enough apologetic gibberish right here.

freediver wrote on May 5^th, 2014 at 8:45pm:

I'd prefer to just read it in the paper. I get enough apologetic gibberish right here.

What are you saying FD? That mosques actually preach "apologetic gibberish" - and not the militant call to arms that Yadda was referring to?

Do you agree that one or two reports of controversial sermons in the paper may not, and probably does not reflect what is normally said week after week in mosques across the country?

polite_gandalf wrote on May 5^th, 2014 at 7:51pm:

What do you think FD? Those stories of Yadda wouldn't have got out without someone "turning up" and recording it. How many uncontroversial, non-incriminating sermons do you think those undercover reporters sat through before they found the fun ones? I guess you'll never have much idea unless you yourself starting "turning up" no?

gandalf,

As the information that i presented in post #26 demonstrates, if an infidel attends a mosque as a guest, there is evidence that the inclination of moslems in the mosque, will be to simply try to deceive the infidel [about what is taught in the mosque, to moslems].

That the moslems WILL NOT BE CANDID WITH THE INFIDEL, but that the moslems in the mosque, will simply tell the infidel, what the moslems want the infidel to believe.



And what is it that the moslems want the infidels to believe ?

The moslems want the infidels to believe, that moslems regard Christians and moslems as 'brothers' in their respective Abrahamic faiths.




As per the example in my post #26;

The Christians that visited the UK mosque were 'treated kindly', and the Christians were told by the moslem preacher;

'We're all people of the book and we all come from the same history'.


But then, subsequently, it is clear that as soon as the Christians are no longer present, the moslem preacher then tells those moslems who are attending the mosque;

'Christianity is vile.'




From the example above, we can see that moslem community leaders [i.e. in this case, the mosques' preacher] are shamelessly encouraging [by their own example], other moslems to have duplicitous relationships with persons who are not moslems!





Google,
smile to the face "while our hearts curse them"


"A Study in Muslim Doctrine
...while sincere friendship with non-Muslims is forbidden,
insincere friendship - whenever beneficial to Muslims - is not."
http://www.meforum.org/2512/nidal-hasan-fort-hood-muslim-doctrine

polite_gandalf wrote on May 5^th, 2014 at 10:30pm:

freediver wrote on May 5th, 2014 at 8:45pm: I'd prefer to just read it in the paper. I get enough apologetic gibberish right here. What are you saying FD? That mosques actually preach "apologetic gibberish" - and not the militant call to arms that Yadda was referring to? Do you agree that one or two reports of controversial sermons in the paper may not, and probably does not reflect what is normally said week after week in mosques across the country?

One or two ??? you can't be serious. Of course they are not going to push it hard here to keep the followers on board. They would push em away. I still don't see any mosque in the land refute any scripture a muslim extremist uses. Funny that.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 5^th, 2014 at 10:30pm:

freediver wrote on May 5th, 2014 at 8:45pm: I'd prefer to just read it in the paper. I get enough apologetic gibberish right here. What are you saying FD? That mosques actually preach "apologetic gibberish" - and not the militant call to arms that Yadda was referring to? Do you agree that one or two reports of controversial sermons in the paper may not, and probably does not reflect what is normally said week after week in mosques across the country?

IMAGE....
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42972000/jpg/_42972269_faisal_pa203b.jpg

Quote:

25 May 2007 "......Al-Faisal spent years travelling the UK preaching racial hatred urging his audience to kill Jews, Hindus and Westerners. ......But throughout the trial he denied he had intended to incite people to violence. ......he argued his talks came from the Koran and if he was on trial so was the holy text."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6692243.stm

Again,  e.g. Koran 9.29



But as soon as it becomes apparent to the moslem, that non-moslems have become aware of his 'message', he claims,
he never said 'that',
he never 'intended that',
'what i said is being misrepresented'.

:)

Uncovered meat was lost in the translation didn't ya know. lol.

Queue Keysar Tradmill.

Trad, explains the promise of the moslem peace with us infidels,

One ISLAM, one peace,
'.....Just like in muslim countries.'
http://sheikyermami.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/sheik.jpg



image source....
http://sheikyermami.com/2007/03/15/out-of-context-fair-go-harmony-under-sharia/

polite_gandalf wrote on May 5^th, 2014 at 10:30pm:

freediver wrote on May 5th, 2014 at 8:45pm: I'd prefer to just read it in the paper. I get enough apologetic gibberish right here. What are you saying FD? That mosques actually preach "apologetic gibberish" - and not the militant call to arms that Yadda was referring to? Do you agree that one or two reports of controversial sermons in the paper may not, and probably does not reflect what is normally said week after week in mosques across the country?

Of course it doesn't. If it did, it wouldn't be controversial any more. I will credit even Muslims with enough sense not to advertise what a few Imams have bee exposed preaching.

Most Muslims do not know about Islamic jurisprudence because lots of it is not actually in the Quranic text.

The 5 pillars of Islam for example is not something you can find directly in the Quran. This is the case with many elements of Shariah law and Islamic jurisprudence.

The clerics of Islam are careful to avoid any controversial aspects of Shariah law to be discussed in public. So it is probably true that many Muslims may simply not know and are not trying to be deceptive.
As a Quranist of course I am concerned with what the Quran has to say. Like Judaism, Islam believes in two revelations, the sacred text and the oral traditions. Judaism has the Torah and Talmud while the Muslims have the Quran and Sunnah.

Jesus as we know attacked many elements of the Talmud and the Pharisees who believed the Talmud can abrogate the Torah. Jesus was a Torah firster.

Quranist also attack many elements of the Sunnah and reject abrogation.

What is happening is because of the invent of technology and communications advancements, many of the problematic elements contained in the Sunnah has now become available to a lot of Muslims. This led to a rise of extremism that we never saw in Islamic history to this extent we see today.