This last weekend yet another Muslim street-march demonstration took place in Sydney with a reported 100 or so involved. A couple of months ago they did the same thing.

They're still highly irate and inconsolably pissed-off that Islamic extremists Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt are no longer in power.

These are the Mammon-worshipping Muslim-faithful who at one time had hypocritically decided on a global 12,000 mile migrant Odyssey to Australia rather than take the short trip to settle in Egypt with its Arabic language, its Islamic culture, and the joys and assurances of its Third World medieval social values system.

And so here they are, on our streets, thoroughly pissed-off that religious fascism was not allowed to take root in a distant country that they had once been so careful to avoid as a migrant destination.

Any sane society that was not at the mercy of a Party-political system would have these people quickly rounded up and put into detention centres to await deportation back to their countries of origin.

But that's not going to happen ~ even though the majority in the electorate might agree with this course of action.

And so it begs that a third major party needs arise in competition with the current Liberals and Labor political duopoly.

edit: article added


Quote:

Protestors take fight for democracy to Sydney streets Date     January 25, 2014 Challenge memory and attention with scientific brain games. Egyptian protesters march down George Street. Egyptian protesters march down George Street. Photo: Damian Shaw Traffic stopped on major Sydney streets on Saturday when more than 100 protesters marched to demand a return to democracy in Egypt. Escorted by police, the Australian-Egyptian protesters chanted – "Down with the military coup" and "Red, White, Black, I want my Egypt back" – as they trailed a billowing flag of the fractured Middle East nation. A coalition of disparate voices, from liberals to Islamists and supporters of the Muslim Brotherhood, marched from Town Hall along George, Goulburn, Elizabeth and Albion streets before they protested outside the Egyptian consulate in Commonwealth Street, Surry Hills. Egyptian protesters march down George Street. They chose March 25 for the protest, the third anniversary of the mass protests in Cairo's Tahrir Square that led to the overthrow of dictator Hosni Mubarak. Under the banner Voice For Human Rights, they objected to the military coup in July last year that overthrew Mohamed Morsi, Egypt's first democratically elected president, in the wake of widespread public opposition to the new leader. They say the military has since killed more than 6000 peaceful protesters while political prisoners are subjected to systematic torture. "It is not that most people here today support Morsi," said Omar Elnawsra, a trainee gastroenterologist at Liverpool Hospital. "It is not about support for the person – it is about the democratic process." The marchers included a lone Coptic Christian, Sydney architect and builder Hany Sorial, whose community widely supported a recent referendum for a draft constitution leading to fresh elections this year. Many boycotted the referendum, which drew less than 40 per cent of voters, but the leadership of General El Sisi claimed 98 per cent support from those who did vote – a farcical result that provided clear evidence of vote-rigging, according to the Sydney protesters. The march proceeded peacefully, although one pedestrian took offence that police were paving the way for the rally. "Go home!" he bellowed at the marchers. A middle-aged marcher stopped to embrace the man warmly. "I told him, 'Don't worry, we will go home as soon as we can. Right now, that is not possible. There is no freedom at home. There is no democracy.'" Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/protestors-take-fight-for-democracy-to-sydney-streets-20140125-31ff3.html#ixzz2rexSh9C2

   

    

Are there any news stories?  I had a look but couldn't find any.

edit: article added

Stratos wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 7:51am:

Are there any news stories?  I had a look but couldn't find any.

It's on page 11

Pay your subscription and you can view it.

The Sunday Telegraph Jan 26 2014 ... "Protesters March for Morsi"

Two glaring questions come to mind:

1) Why did the television news media choose to ignore a Muslim protest march that was in favour of a Far Rightwing government in Egypt ~ WAY more to the Right than anything we've ever seen in Australia?

Not newsworthy?

Or just gutless journalism not wishing to step on ethnic 'sensitivities'?

2) WHERE were gandalf's REAL Muslims who should have been out on the streets confronting these extremists as not representing True Islam, and whose protest-march was very bad PR for those Muslims in Australia who like to describe themselves as 'Moderate' and compatible with Western cultural values?

Nowhere to be seen.

'Out to Lunch'

'Gone Fishing for the Weekend'

'Will be Back Soon'.

'Please Leave your Message and telephone number after the beeps'.

'Doesn't live here any more ~ whereabouts unknown'i

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 7:22am:

100 or so involved

Epic.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 9:20am:

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 28th, 2014 at 7:22am: 100 or so involved Epic.

Tip of the iceberg as proven by no opposition.

Now see what happens if One Nation should hold a street march in protest of these Muslim protesters protesting on behalf of a Fascist version of Islam ...

You know it ~ I know it ... the riot police would have to be called out to control an irate crowd of hundreds of Sydney Muslims spitting and chanting Islamic mantras in support of the '100 Muslim protesters'. The mobile phones would be burning hot as they rallied each other to shout down the One Nation marchers.

You and your PR Muslim colleagues will never win the argument, gandalf.

WAY too many contradictions, and WAY too much defending the indefensible.

I'm wondering why even One Nation would hold a "counter protest" against people protesting against the overthrow and subsequent persecution of members a democratic government in Egypt.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 9:43am:

I'm wondering why even One Nation would hold a "counter protest" against people protesting against the overthrow and subsequent persecution of members a democratic government in Egypt.

"....the overthrow and subsequent persecution of members a democratic government in Egypt."

That's a laugh!




gandalf,

Your claim seems to be, that Morsi's government was legitimate, because it was democratically elected ?

I would claim that Morsi and the Moslem Brotherhood stole the election [an election which they did 'win'], by misrepresenting their intended policies, to the Egyptian people.

Therefore, i and many others, would claim that Morsi's government was NOT legitimate.

There is no legitimacy to government authority, if politicians who are seeking government authority, lie to those who are electing them, so as to get elected.

Or, is your argument that it is OK for politicians to lie [during an election], so as to get elected, for the sole purpose, to seize 'legitimate' government authority ???


gandalf,

Do you understand, that in 'democracy', the actual authority to govern, is derived directly from the people ?

Because, it is the people, who give the members of government, which is elected, the authority to govern, ON THEIR BEHALF [i.e. on behalf of the people] ?

So if a government steals an election, by lying and misrepresenting its intentions, to those who give it [a government] authority, then the people would be justified in using force, to remove that government.




+++

Prior to being elected, Mohamed Morsi told the promised the Egyptian public, that if elected, the Moslem Brotherhood would govern for all Egyptians.





But at a Moslem Brotherhood political rally Morsi revealed that the Moslem Brotherhood promises [made to the wider Egyptian public] were a pack of lies....


Quote:

Mild mannered - "We will govern for all Egyptians" - Mohamed Morsi - Ex-President of Egypt "The Koran is our constitution" "The Prophet Muhammad is our leader" "Jihad is our path" "AND DEATH FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH IS OUR MOST LOFTY ASPIRATION!" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8NtiUMOFFg

Quote:

"It is not that most people here today support Morsi," said Omar Elnawsra, a trainee gastroenterologist at Liverpool Hospital. "It is not about support for the person – it is about the democratic process. Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/protestors-take-fight-for-democracy-to-sydney-streets-20140125-31ff3.html#ixzz2reJ2vKS3

So it's an anti coup protest, and a call for real democracy.

hardly something most people would argue against.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 9:43am:

I'm wondering why even One Nation would hold a "counter protest" against people protesting against the overthrow and subsequent persecution of members a democratic government in Egypt.

Well there you go. You've just blown your credibility as a 'moderate' Muslim.

No one is buying the apologist nonsense that this is a protest about democracy having been temporarily suspended for the purpose of removing a dangerously Rightwing fascist version of Islam from governing Egypt.

It's very revealing that self-proclaimed 'moderates' such as yourself are choosing to support the lie that these protesters are in no way sympathetic to Morsi's version of Islamic extremist politics, but are only concerned that democracy has been temporarily suspended.

You must think the average Australian is a gullible idiot who will accept this nonsense as plausible.

There may have been only 100 Muslims on the street ~ but your own response to this has demonstrated that those in the Muslim community who claim to be 'moderates' and real Muslims ~ are frauds and deceitful charlatans.

Yadda wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 10:30am:

Prior to being elected, Mohamed Morsi told the promised the Egyptian public, that if elected, the Moslem Brotherhood would govern for all Egyptians. But at a Moslem Brotherhood political rally Morsi revealed that the Moslem Brotherhood promises [made to the wider Egyptian public] were a pack of lies....

As the video states, this "revelation" was made months before the election - while Morsi was campaigning.


Quote:

So if a government steals an election, by lying and misrepresenting its intentions, to those who give it [a government] authority, then the people would be justified in using force, to remove that government.

Last I checked, Egypt is over 90% muslim - you know the people who you demonize in every single post you make - the people who you say should be dismissed as perpetual liars and deceivers? The people who, without exception, aspire to kill non-muslims and spread terror wherever they reside? Ring any bells Y?

I'm pretty sure the point you have been making for the last 8 thousand or so posts you have made is that there is no distinction between muslims - "they" are all the same, all fanatical, all deceivers and all bloodthirsty. Is that a fair assessment do you think Yadda?

So my question is, in a country where over 90% of the population comprises these fanatical bloodthirsty liars, where exactly is this great mass of "the people" who don't consider that:

1. the Koran is their constitution
2. the prophet is their leader
3. jihad is their path
4. death for the sake of Allah is their most lofty aspiration

The < 10% non-muslim population??

Exactly who did Morsi betray/mislead by stating these principles?

Or are you now saying that not *ALL* muslims are the blind automatons you've been so meticulously portraying them as all these years??

Quote:

Or are you now saying that not *ALL* muslims are the blind automatons you've been so meticulously portraying them as all these years??

They did vote for Morsi.

freediver wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 12:25pm:

They did vote for Morsi.

I think the correct phrasing is "They did 'vote', for Morsi"

What do you think Gandalf? Did Morsi get the majority of the vote?

Stratos wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 10:40am:

So it's an anti coup protest, and a call for real democracy.

Hey! Yeah, okay. Democracy! Nothing to do with Islam. Just nice liberal people on a secular mission to protest about the suspension of democracy in a country somewhere in the northern hemisphere where probably none of them have ever been.

So nice of them!

Nothing to do with Islam.

Tell me more!

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/ruffdiamond/January%202013/naive_zps2be74024.png

Here's some pictures of these "extremists" performing a bit of street theatre as part of the protest (wait... isn't such creativity strictly banned by such islamic extremists?? - and how come there are so many uncovered girls freely mixing with men?? Outrageous!!):

http://cache.newzulu.com.au/en/photos/local/2014-01-25/4925/sydney-s-egyptian-community-stages/all_fullscreen/45081-img_3311.jpg

http://cache.newzulu.com.au/en/photos/local/2014-01-25/4925/sydney-s-egyptian-community-stages/all_fullscreen/45083-img_3316.jpg


Hijabed women proudly waving an Australian flag?? - SCANDALOUS!!
http://cache.newzulu.com.au/en/photos/local/2014-01-25/4925/sydney-s-egyptian-community-stages/all_fullscreen/45087-img_3351.jpg


Cover that girl!!!
http://cache.newzulu.com.au/en/photos/local/2014-01-25/4925/sydney-s-egyptian-community-stages/all_fullscreen/45091-img_3364.jpg


Poster reads: "There is no way to peace, peace is the way"...

how do these terrorists get away with such blatant incitement to violence!!??
http://cache.newzulu.com.au/en/photos/local/2014-01-25/4925/sydney-s-egyptian-community-stages/all_fullscreen/45078-img_3290.jpg

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 11:00am:

.....Last I checked, Egypt is over 90% muslim. .....So my question is, in a country where over 90% of the population comprises these fanatical bloodthirsty liars, where exactly is this great mass of "the people" who don't consider that: 1. the Koran is their constitution 2. the prophet is their leader 3. jihad is their path 4. death for the sake of Allah is their most lofty aspiration

gandalf,

If [as you yourself assert] "Egypt is over 90% muslim", then if [as moslems] 90% of the population of Egypt are [religiously entitled to, and are] prepared to lie [and say that they are NOT moslems], to protect their life, then logically, the converse is also true.

And then that 90% of the population of Egypt [the people who i say, are the filthy, DECEITFUL, LYING moslems!] would be prepared to lie [and pretend that they ARE moslems], to protect their life !

So in such a circumstance, all we can know for certain is that 90% of the population of Egypt are moslems, and we know that that 100% of all of those persons prepared to lie, if it is to their advantage to do so !

So Egypt is in a BIG, BIG, mess.

And 100% of the reason and 100% of the cause of the BIG, BIG, mess which Egypt is in, is ISLAM and its doctrines of deception, lies, and vicious intimidation and violence against those who would speak truthfully [e.g. those who live in Egypt, and would like to say; "I live in Egypt, and i am not a moslem." ....but can't, because they are filthy, DECEITFUL, LYING moslems!].ipolite_gandalf wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 11:00am:

Exactly who did Morsi betray/mislead by stating these principles?

Silly boy gandalf!

Morsi betrayed/mislead ANYONE and EVERYONE who heard him speaking, as a deceitful, lying, moslem.

Q.
If moslems will lie so profusely, as they are want do, then who can know, when a moslem is not lying ?

A.
God knows.




Taqiyya
“Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish it through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible..., and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory. ...One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie…”
google




Google;
taqiyya - the muslim doctrine of deceit







+++


Now, when it comes to democracy [in Egypt, or anywhere else].

The [in a democracy] individuals who make up a government [the ministers of a government], of themselves have no authority to govern others.

And even 'a government', of itself has no authority to govern others.

i.e.
Morsi and the Moslem Brotherhood have no 'innate' authority [of themselves] to govern other Egyptians.

The authority to govern [in a democracy], comes from the amalgamated/collective authority of all of the people who elect the government.

In a democratic system, only the people can give another group of people the authority [that is derived from the people] to govern with their permission, and on their behalf.

But a major problem is, that democracy can't work function, in a community made up wholly [or with a majority] of moslems.

Why not ?

Because democracy as a system of government, relies upon the honesty of those persons who wish to avail themselves of its 'democratic' purpose.

So Morsi and the Moslem Brotherhood automatically disqualify themselves, being moslems, and would only abuse a democratic system of government - and try to govern [in their own interests] without any proper authority from the people who would being governed.  [....as per the example of the post election MB/Morsi government!!]



So what Morsi and the Moslem Brotherhood should do, is to employ local Christians to run a democratic system of government in Egypt, for all Egyptians.

Because the Christians can be trusted to properly administer a democracy.

BUT MOSLEMS CAN NOT!

After all, it was Christians who developed the democratic governing system.




So again, i say;

Quote:

There is no legitimacy to government authority, if politicians who are seeking government authority, lie to those who are electing them, so as to get elected. Or, is your argument that it is OK for politicians to lie [during an election], so as to get elected, for the sole purpose, to seize 'legitimate' government authority ??? gandalf, Do you understand, that in 'democracy', the actual authority to govern, is derived directly from the people ? Because, it is the people, who give the members of government, which is elected, the authority to govern, ON THEIR BEHALF [i.e. on behalf of the people] ? So if a government steals an election, by lying and misrepresenting its intentions, to those who give it [a government] authority, then the people would be justified in using force, to remove that government.

Yadda wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 10:30am:

There is no legitimacy to government authority, if politicians who are seeking government authority, lie to those who are electing them, so as to get elected.

Like Barak Obama and his crew.

With Muslim population in Australia at 1.7%, protests are getting a little ahead of the usual MO.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpM6QKaAgP0

Three cheers for the Muslim Brotherhood and female genital mutilation!
https://www.google.com/#q=female+genital+mutilation+muslim+brotherhood

Western governments should outlaw Muhammadanism and shut down mosques, until such time as Muhammad's followers can demonstrate that it is anything other than a purely imperialistic political machine, bent on conquest of those same countries. Which they can't, as Muhammad's followers in this forum have been unable to do. Islam is NOT a religion. The only thing that it has to do with religion, is that it is an anti-religion - that it is antichrist.

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 7:51pm:

Western governments should outlaw Muhammadanism and shut down mosques

Quite the human rights beacon here Pete.  i know the early church was communist but I didn't expect even you to go full Stalin on them

Stratos wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 7:56pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 28th, 2014 at 7:51pm: Western governments should outlaw Muhammadanism and shut down mosques Quite the human rights beacon here Pete.  i know the early church was communist but I didn't expect even you to go full Stalin on them

It's no different than if we had invited the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany to set up headquarters in our countries. Mosques are effectively nothing more strategic planning centers for that conquest. That is of course, besides the brainwashing of Muhammadans, into unwittingly worshiping Satan.

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 8:02pm:

into unwittingly worshiping Satan.

That's OK, I'm sure many people believe you have been yourself deceived.  After all what member of a religion based on loving your neighbour could support killing babies?

Quote:

"It is not that most people here today support Morsi,"

said Omar Elnawsra ...

It's just a coincidence ~ right? These pro-democracy Islamists are marching only to demonstrate their secular concerns about democracy having been removed for the moment.

I thought Islam didn't allow for democracy so far as fundamentalists are concerned.

Would there have been any 'democracy' under the coalition of Morsi and the Brothers of Islam at the next election?

Of course not.

If polls had shown they were going to lose the next election ~ their thugs would have been posted at every voting booth in the country ~ just as Mugabe has repeatedly done in Uganda to maintain his power and privileges.

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 8:10pm:

These pro-democracy Islamists are marching only to demonstrate their secular concerns about democracy having been removed for the moment.

Well is there anything suggest otherwise sans tinfoil hat?


Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 8:10pm:

I thought Islam didn't allow for democracy so far as fundamentalists are concerned.

maybe *shock* not all Muslims fit your hilarious caricature?


Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 8:10pm:

Would there have been any 'democracy' under the coalition of Morsi and the Brothers of Islam at the next election?

You can't really get LESS democratic than a coup Herbert.  They want peace for Egypt.  The answer isn't Morsi or a coup.  It's something else.

Stratos wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 8:07pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 28th, 2014 at 8:02pm: into unwittingly worshiping Satan. That's OK, I'm sure many people believe you have been yourself deceived.  After all what member of a religion based on loving your neighbour could support killing babies?

A member of a religion - rather someone in a relationship with Jesus Christ - that worships a merciful and loving God, that gathered those, in all likelihood disease ridden infants (if the Muslim practice of "thighing" infants is any indication) unto to Himself, where they remain today.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1390658615
Yet even as I have patiently and repeatedly explained this, and even as you may possess the smidgen of cognitive function required to understand the concept, your hatred of God through Satan and his spirit of antichrist causes you to continue to falsely accuse Him. Indeed repeating your accusations against Him, even in most of your replies to me, regardless of the subject.

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 9:09pm:

our hatred of God through Satan and his spirit of antichrist causes you to continue to falsely accuse Him

Falsely accuse? what?

Do you deny you think it is acceptable under certain circumstance to kill babies?  The fact you think their health is even relevant is frankly disgusting (not to mention victim blaming and entirely unprovable.)

I guess I erred regarding the level of cognitive function.

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 9:28pm:

I guess I erred regarding the level of cognitive function.

Sorry, I believe that killing babies is wrong.  You seem to have a different opinion.

freediver wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 12:25pm:

Quote: Or are you now saying that not *ALL* muslims are the blind automatons you've been so meticulously portraying them as all these years?? They did vote for Morsi.

It is so, my friend. It is your demokracy, no?

Gud is great.

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 10:41am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 28th, 2014 at 9:43am: I'm wondering why even One Nation would hold a "counter protest" against people protesting against the overthrow and subsequent persecution of members a democratic government in Egypt. You must think the average Australian is a gullible idiot who will accept this nonsense as plausible.

Yes, Herbie, but we are free to vote for One Nation, you have to admit that.

We are a demokracy, no?

Karnal wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 10:58pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 28th, 2014 at 12:25pm: Quote: Or are you now saying that not *ALL* muslims are the blind automatons you've been so meticulously portraying them as all these years?? They did vote for Morsi. It is so, my friend. It is your demokracy, no? Gud is great.

Perhaps Barak Obama's and his cadre's warped misconception of "democracy".
http://www.raymondibrahim.com/muslim-persecution-of-christians/confirmed-u-s-chief-facilitator-of-christian-persecution/

The fact is that those Sidney Muhammadans, are enjoying the exercise of their free speech, even as they are advancing a cult that is the very antitheses thereof. Enjoying a God-given right they are foolishly working at the same time to ultimately eliminate.

Muhammadanism is the very antitheses of freedom, liberty and the right to self-determination, so governance by the people renders justice to be an impossibility in such a society. Antichrists whose hearts are ruled by Satan, are not any more capable of ruling themselves, than Sunnis and Shiites are capable of stopping the mutual murder of each others innocents.

As evidenced by 1400 years of Islamic history and Islamic countries around the world today, the fact is that Islamic countries can only be ruled by the iron fist of totalitarian regimes, in which society must be threatened with death, to prevent citizens from following their hearts and beginning a life in Jesus Christ, or even just speaking truthfully about the reprobate nature of the false prophet Muhammad and his cult.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/blasphemy_laws.htm#death_penalty_blasphemy

Here is an example of where Muhammadanism would necessarily, ultimately, lead the world:
AP - December 06, 2006 MOGADISHU, Somalia - "Residents of a southern Somalia town who do not pray five times a day will be beheaded, an Islamic courts official said Wednesday, adding the edict will be implemented in three days."

It really is amazing that so many atheists are on board with Muhammadans against Christians. I have only run into one, an English atheist, who supports Christians as a result of his own self-interest in the future.

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 11:14pm:

The fact is that those Sidney Muhammadans, are enjoying the exercise of their free speech, even as they are advancing a cult that is the very antitheses thereof. Enjoying a God-given right they are foolishly working at the same time to ultimately eliminate.

You raise a very interesting point, Pete. Dermokracy is undergoing a transformation as we speak. The same thing is happening in Thailand, where the Yellow Shirts are protesting against elections. Their argument is that people (rural villagers) don't understand demokracy - they don't know who they're voting for. According to the Yellow Shirts, their' political nemesis is merely voting in its own self-interest. Can this be democracy?

When the Arab Spring happened, I thought it would all end quickly with the generals hitting back. In most cases I was wrong - I was surprised. Mind you, In Egypt, it took them a year to do just that.

Morsi was not popularly elected. He pasted together a minority coalition. But according to commentators like Robert Fisk, deposing Morsi was more risky to an emerging demokracy than leaving him in. In Egypt, the Arab Spring is over. The generals are back in power.

I believe this will also happen in Thailand, who've had 18 coups since they became a constitutional monarchy in the 1930s. The thing that's different around the world now is that people in emerging demokracies are questioning the nature of democracy. When demokracy doesn't give them what they want, they want power returned to the generals.

Prior to Putin in Russia, there was also a push to return to communism. These are the teething pains of emerging demokracies. It's an issue Machiavelli identified with the emergence of the modern nation state: In the Discourses, Machiavelli said that it is much harder for people in republics to accept dictatorships than it is for dictatorships to become republics. In stating this, however, Machiavelli articulated the groups and interests that shape this dynamic. Democracy is never as simple as simply giving a majority of the people a vote (or in Machiavelli's time, it's landholders).

We don't have this debate in Australia. Instead, we just move from leader to leader, Labor to Liberal, in the vain but passive hope the next one won't be as bad as the last. There is, of course, no risk of the army seizing power, but there is a definite sense that demokracy is not democracy, which explains the popularity of independents and minor parties in the last two elections.

I think you're overdoing the Muslim influence in this. In Egypt, people want a stable government that delivers services. Questions of Muslim identity politics are secondary to this. If I'm not mistaken, the "Muslim" vote in Egypt is around 30%. Within this, however, are a range of social and political opinions.

The paradox is that we have Muslim fundamentalists advocating demokracy and secular liberals advocating a popular coup, but there is by no means a clear line in the sand here. It is a very complex debate, and I doubt even the main protagonists are able to articulate their positions with much clarity.

This is certainly the case in Thailand, just as it is in Egypt. I'll bet that among the Egyptian demonstration in Sydney, there were very different motives and many heated debates.

Political debate in Australia generally ignores the dimension of class. In the emerging (perhaps) demokracies of Egypt and Thailand, the question of class is crucial to understanding the political dynamic. In Thailand, western debate pitches the rural poor against the urban elites and middle classes. Both Thailand and Egypt are countries that have developed economically before they have given demokracy a chance to work. In Australia, it was the reverse, but as we developed economically, class was a crucial issue in Australian politics.  From Federation to the 1980s, your class defined the way you worked, lived and voted.

So before framing this issue in terms of religion, which is important, I'd be looking at the question of class, and how it influences religion and religious fundamentalism. I'd be framing this discussion in terms of political and economic development, and how social and religious concerns express these phenomena.

The developing world is now coming into its own. Within this century, we will see a transition in global hegemony from the US and Western Europe to East Asia. The question of demokracy is crucial. It is very unlikely that global power will ape the current US model. It is very unlikely that "emerging" demokracies will emerge as a reflection of the US and Western powers.

The US, of course, has been influential is this. By propagating puppet dictatorships in countries like Egypt, the US has cultivated the power of the generals. Demokracies like Indonesia have emerged despite the influence of the US in domestic politics, not because of it.

The generals, of course, are always waiting. As Max Weber said, speaking of reason and religious fundamentalism, "the gates to the church will always remain open".

Poster reads: "There is no way to peace, peace is the way"...

how do these terrorists get away with such blatant incitement to violence!!??
http://cache.newzulu.com.au/en/photos/local/2014-01-25/4925/sydney-s-egyptian-community-stages/all_fullscreen/45078-img_3290.jpg
Children in Sydney, advocating for the Muslim Brotherhood political group of Egypt;
In Egypt, these two young girls would be screaming a new song, a different song, if they were being held down, naked below the waist, with their legs held apart, and female genital mutilation was being performed upon them.

Google;
egypt female genital mutilation, muslim brotherhood

Google;
egypt female genital mutilation supported by muslim brotherhood

Mutilating bodies: the Muslim Brotherhood's gift to Egyptian women
http://www.opendemocracy.net/5050/mariz-tadros/mutilating-bodies-muslim-brotherhood%E2%80%99s-gift-to-egyptian-women

Cover that girl!!!
http://cache.newzulu.com.au/en/photos/local/2014-01-25/4925/sydney-s-egyptian-community-stages/all_fullscreen/45091-img_3364.jpg
Children in Sydney, advocating for the Muslim Brotherhood political group of Egypt;
Does this girl have the permission of her moslem husband to go out, in public, uncovered ?
In an Egypt governed by the Muslim Brotherhood, this young girl could well have died in child birth by this [her apparent] age.
But lets encourage her to advocate for the Muslim Brotherhood political group of Egypt!


Google;
egypt, muslim brotherhood, push, child bride

Karnal wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 11:03pm:

We are a demokracy, no?

NO.

We are a Демократия, да.  8-)

Hijabed women proudly waving an Australian flag?? - SCANDALOUS!!
http://cache.newzulu.com.au/en/photos/local/2014-01-25/4925/sydney-s-egyptian-community-stages/all_fullscreen/45087-img_3351.jpg
A crowd of moslems in Sydney, advocating for the Muslim Brotherhood political group of Egypt;
What is scandalous, is that moslems should hold up an Australian flag, as though to suggest that Australia and Australians would ever support the political aspirations of ISLAMISTS in Egypt - the Muslim Brotherhood political group.




n.b.
Moslems will typically trample the national flag of their host nation, in those instances when the freedoms represented by that flag of the host nation cannot be exploited, to promote ISLAMISTS political interests.

Watch these 'proudly' 'American' moslems, shamelessly abusing the USA flag, so as to promote ISLAM [above the secular rights and freedoms represented by the USA flag!]....

Please watch this YT...         goto 2m 10s
Muslims being deceptive Islam EX-Muslims
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZx8cNSC9O0





Does any Australian doubt, that if the Australian flag was of no political 'utility' to these Sydney moslems, that those moslems in Sydney would not also be trampling the Australian flag, to show their utter moslem contempt for Australia and for Australians ?





+++


There is no such creature, as a 'moderate' moslem, or, a moslem 'pluralist'.

Pluralism and freedom and choice, are incompatible with ISLAMIC ideals.

A moslem, .....is a moslem.


e.g.

Quote:

"[a respected moslem community spokesman has] called on Australian Muslims to spurn secular democracy and Western notions of moderate Islam... ...[moslems in Australia were told] that democracy is "haram" (forbidden) for Muslims, whose political engagement should be be based purely on Islamic law. "We must adhere to Islam and Islam alone," Mr Hanif [said]"

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/07/australia-members-of-hizb-ut-tahrir-say-country-is-god-forsaken-and-that-muslims-must-shun-secular-a.html

Good post K. You can throw in Venezuala too in your examination of class divides in democracies in the developing world.

What I find particular interesting about the Morsi/MB experience is that in the 2012 presidential elections, in which Morsi was elected, 52% of the population voted. For a country that had just spent a year in passionate protest about democracy, this seems an extraordinary turnout. Had disillusionment and realisation that the army would never be truly ousted from power already set in?

According to opinion polls in the lead up to the election, Morsi was a long way down the list for preferred president. Yet when the election came, it seems the people who cared the most about voting were Morsi supporters. The MB must be given credit for mobolizing their support base in a way that no other candidate/party did.

The protests agains Morsi that led to the military coup is understandable  -most Egyptians did not vote for - and probably did not want Morsi. What is not understandable is why so many of these people did not vote for anyone if they felt so passionately against Morsi and the MB.

Egyptian democracy would get a lot more credibility, and the army would lose a lot of political authority, if Egyptians respected their democracy and gave their candidates an actual mandate.

Here's some pictures of these "extremists" performing a bit of street theatre as part of the protest (wait... isn't such creativity strictly banned by such islamic extremists?? - and how come there are so many uncovered girls freely mixing with men?? Outrageous!!):

http://cache.newzulu.com.au/en/photos/local/2014-01-25/4925/sydney-s-egyptian-community-stages/all_fullscreen/45081-img_3311.jpg

http://cache.newzulu.com.au/en/photos/local/2014-01-25/4925/sydney-s-egyptian-community-stages/all_fullscreen/45083-img_3316.jpg

This street theatre, is depicting scenes from Egypt;
THESE SCREENS ARE DEPICTING HOW IN RECENT YEARS, CADRES OF THE MOSLEM BROTHERHOOD, HAVE MURDERED CHRISTIANS ON THE STREETS OF EGYPT, SIMPLY BECAUSE THOSE CHRISTIANS WERE NOT MOSLEMS.i

ISLAMIC 'CULTURE' EXPRESSED, FROM THE KORAN - and this is the same ISLAMIC culture that is promoted today by the Muslim Brotherhood political group of Egypt, and by moslems living among us, here in Australia.

"Fighting [against unbelievers] is prescribed for you, and [if] ye dislike it.....Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Koran 2.216


"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123


"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111


"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29




+++

Above, Yadda claimed....
"....promoted today.....by moslems living among us, here in Australia."



IMAGE...
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200508/r54561_147958.jpg
August 4, 2005      
Australian Islamic leader defends jihad
"I am telling you that my religion doesn't tolerate other religion. It doesn't tolerate," he said.
"The only one law which needs to spread, it can be here or anywhere else, is Islam."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200508/s1430551.htm

You're right, Y. Scandalous.

Looks like you've got some new photos. Instead of "behead all those who insult the prophet", you'll now be able to post "the only way to peace is peace".

Of course, you'll be posting this as an example of the sinister Muselman hiding his true face. Cunning, no?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 11:45am:

Good post K. You can throw in Venezuala too in your examination of class divides in democracies in the developing world. What I find particular interesting about the Morsi/MB experience is that in the 2012 presidential elections, in which Morsi was elected, 52% of the population voted. For a country that had just spent a year in passionate protest about democracy, this seems an extraordinary turnout. Had disillusionment and realisation that the army would never be truly ousted from power already set in? According to opinion polls in the lead up to the election, Morsi was a long way down the list for preferred president. Yet when the election came, it seems the people who cared the most about voting were Morsi supporters. The MB must be given credit for mobolizing their support base in a way that no other candidate/party did. The protests agains Morsi that led to the military coup is understandable  -most Egyptians did not vote for - and probably did not want Morsi. What is not understandable is why so many of these people did not vote for anyone if they felt so passionately against Morsi and the MB. Egyptian democracy would get a lot more credibility, and the army would lose a lot of political authority, if Egyptians respected their democracy and gave their candidates an actual mandate.

Good point, G. Do you know what constitutional changes Morsi was proposing? Do you know, for example, if any of them included mandatory voting?

To be honest, I don't know anything about Morsi and his government. The reaction, however, seems extreme. What could he have possibly done in a year to warrant mass protests, a coup, and imprisonment?

Karnal wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 12:37pm:

You're right, Y. Scandalous.

K,

Your sincere concurrence is so appreciated by me.





Quote:

Looks like you've got some new photos. Instead of "behead all those who insult the prophet", you'll now be able to post "the only way to peace is peace". Of course, you'll be posting this as an example of the sinister Muselman hiding his true face. Cunning, no?

"There is no way to peace, peace is the way"...

K,

In the moslem lexicon, the word, 'ISLAM', and the word, 'peace', are interchangeable, especially for whenever moslems are communicating with useful idiots [those non-moslems who advocate for ISLAMIC, ISLAMIC causes, for peaceful ISLAMIC causes].



So you see K, it is much more concealing and politically productive for a moslem slogan to declare;

"There is no way to peace, peace is the way"...

than for a moslem slogan to openly declare;

"There is no way to peace, ISLAM is the way"...





Poster reads: "There is no way to peace, peace is the way"...

how do these terrorists get away with such blatant incitement to violence!!??
http://cache.newzulu.com.au/en/photos/local/2014-01-25/4925/sydney-s-egyptian-community-stages/all_fullscreen/45078-img_3290.jpg
Children in Sydney, advocating for the Muslim Brotherhood political group of Egypt;


K,

Your dedication to the motif of peace, is so, so, appreciated.

It is a pity that as an atheist, you lack a true appreciation of my true praise - of you.

I wonder if those girls have been infibulated yet?

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 1:34pm:

I wonder if those girls have been infibulated yet?

Herbert,

Why of course!

I'm sure that those young moslem girls have all received their inflated swimming pool toys, perhaps, even just last Christmas ?

Yadda wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 1:38pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 1:34pm: I wonder if those girls have been infibulated yet? Herbert, Why of course! I'm sure that those young moslem girls have all received their inflated swimming pool toys, perhaps, even just last Christmas ?

If these cute little girls knew about the real horrors of their parent's religion I can just image the horror they would feel.

The placards their parent's are waving is in support of a rightwing Islamist who would have soon rescinded the ban on female circumcision in Egypt.

Their happy faces are in ignorance of Sharia and the traditional practices of Islamic societies.


Quote:

Incidence: In 2000, the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) funded the fourth in a series of Demographic and Health Surveys (DHS) conducted in Egypt. This nationally representative survey of 15,648 ever-married women aged 15-49 found that the practice is nearly universal among women of reproductive age in Egypt. Preliminary analysis of the 2000 findings show that 97 percent of women surveyed have undergone one of these procedures, which represented no change from the 1995 DHS findings. The most severe form, Type III, is rare.

Do these little girls know about this? Do they know what their parents are protesting about under cover of bullshit about 'democracy'?

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/ruffdiamond/January%202013/mute_zps14f2c537.png

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 1:43pm:

Yadda wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 1:38pm: Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 1:34pm: I wonder if those girls have been infibulated yet? Herbert, Why of course! I'm sure that those young moslem girls have all received their inflated swimming pool toys, perhaps, even just last Christmas ? If these cute little girls knew about the real horrors of their parent's religion I can just image the horror they would feel. The placards their parent's are waving is in support of a rightwing Islamist who would have soon rescinded the ban on female circumcision in Egypt. Their happy faces are in ignorance of Sharia and the traditional practices of Islamic societies. http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/ruffdiamond/January%202013/mute_zps14f2c537.png

Herbert,


I see it as indeed perverse [and potentially, as a criminal intent],
....that moslems, living in Australia, clearly see nothing wrong with using their own children [living in Sydney], to advocate for the Muslim Brotherhood political group of Egypt, when we know, that the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, intends to make lawful, female genital mutilation, which [if the Muslim Brotherhood ever came to power in Egypt], would be performed upon young Egyptian girls, exactly like the young moslem girls living in Australia, who are advocating for the Muslim Brotherhood political group of Egypt!

I do wonder if these young moslem girls living in Australia, have any idea, have been informed by their moslem parents, of what it is, that they [those children, on the streets of Sydney, Australia] are advocating for ?


i.e.
Do these young girls in Sydney, have any idea, of what it is, that they are advocating for, for their own counterparts, living in Egypt ?

Yadda wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 2:14pm:

Herbert, I see it as indeed perverse [and potentially, as a criminal intent], ....that moslems, living in Australia, clearly see nothing wrong with using their own children [living in Sydney], to advocate for the Muslim Brotherhood political group of Egypt, when we know, that the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, intends to make lawful, female genital mutilation, which [if the Muslim Brotherhood ever came to power in Egypt], would be performed upon young Egyptian girls, exactly like the young moslem girls living in Australia, who are advocating for the Muslim Brotherhood political group of Egypt! I do wonder if these young moslem girls living in Australia, have any idea, have been informed by their moslem parents, of what it is, that they [those children, on the streets of Sydney, Australia] are advocating for ? i.e. Do these young girls in Sydney, have any idea, of what it is, that they are advocating for, for their own counterparts, living in Egypt ?

I suppose that it is quite possible that those girls have been informed by their moslem parents.



So we would have to assume that, these moslem girls [being safe in Australia], do not care, what may befall their own counterparts in Egypt, if the Muslim Brotherhood ever came to power in Egypt ?

After all, these Sydney moslem girls have been indoctrinated from their mothers breast, that sacrifices made [by others!] for ISLAM, is the highest path in life !!

And after all, it is not these Sydney girls who will be suffering for the promotion of ISLAMIC ideals !

No, it will be their counterparts, in ISLAMIC majority jurisdictions, who will carry the burden.

So, 'Lets advocate for ISLAM, and support the servants of Allah!'



Poster reads: "There is no way to peace, peace is the way"...

how do these terrorists get away with such blatant incitement to violence!!??
http://cache.newzulu.com.au/en/photos/local/2014-01-25/4925/sydney-s-egyptian-community-stages/all_fullscreen/45078-img_3290.jpg
Children in Sydney, advocating for the Muslim Brotherhood political group of Egypt;





gandalf, et al,

Surely, i have to assume, that these moslem girls have been fully informed, by their moslem parents.

And i have to assume that their moslem parents are not exploiting, their own children, to promote the political interests, of    .....moslems ?

Yadda wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 1:38pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 1:34pm: I wonder if those girls have been infibulated yet? Herbert, Why of course! I'm sure that those young moslem girls have all received their inflated swimming pool toys, perhaps, even just last Christmas ?

Exactly. They were given toys for Christmas.

Typical.

Yadda wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 1:21pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 12:37pm: You're right, Y. Scandalous. K, Your sincere concurrence is so appreciated by me. Quote: Looks like you've got some new photos. Instead of "behead all those who insult the prophet", you'll now be able to post "the only way to peace is peace". Of course, you'll be posting this as an example of the sinister Muselman hiding his true face. Cunning, no? "There is no way to peace, peace is the way"... K, In the moslem lexicon, the word, 'ISLAM', and the word, 'peace', are interchangeable, especially for whenever moslems are communicating with useful idiots [those non-moslems who advocate for ISLAMIC, ISLAMIC causes, for peaceful ISLAMIC causes]. So you see K, it is much more concealing and politically productive for a moslem slogan to declare; "There is no way to peace, peace is the way"... than for a moslem slogan to openly declare; "There is no way to peace, ISLAM is the way"... Poster reads: "There is no way to peace, peace is the way"... how do these terrorists get away with such blatant incitement to violence!!?? http://cache.newzulu.com.au/en/photos/local/2014-01-25/4925/sydney-s-egyptian-community-stages/all_fullscreen/45078-img_3290.jpg Children in Sydney, advocating for the Muslim Brotherhood political group of Egypt; K, Your dedication to the motif of peace, is so, so, appreciated. It is a pity that as an atheist, you lack a true appreciation of my true praise - of you.

Thanks, Y. Trust your Muselman to write fake slogans and pretend to be all peaceful. We know what they really mean when they talk about peace.

Behead all those who insult the Prophet.

I'm hardly an atheist, Y. I believe in Gud.

This is what their parents are bitching about, Yadda.


Quote:

"I SUPPORT HARDLINE ISLAMIST MORSI AND THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD"

It's right there on the placard. They're not ashamed of it.

You'll notice they do a lot of 'four-finger-no-thumb' symbolism on placards and with their hands. There's even an obscene picture of a little girl doing this.

The missing thumb is symbolic of the cliterotomy that 97% of Egyptian women have undergone to remove any possibility of sexual enjoyment with their husbands ... for an entire lifetime.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e150/ruffdiamond/January%202013/morsi_zps65334197.png

I can't believe we're having this conversation in the year 2014, and that these mentally diseased people are being accepted in their thousands each year for immigration and citizenship rights because a few rich people want more customers to buy their widgets.

Question...

How do you even know they are Muslims?  There are a few Hijabs there, but honestly this doesn't seem like a Muslim thing.  It's a peace rally

Stratos wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 3:21pm:

Question... How do you even know they are Muslims?  There are a few Hijabs there, but honestly this doesn't seem like a Muslim thing.  It's a peace rally

What's that expression about it being better to say nothing than open your mouth and prove you are a ... ?

Here's some reading matter, S.

link

(I'm still in shock that one-time Far Left luvvie Pickering had his epiphany... )

Substantiating claims with Pickering now?  No reference to Morsi, Egypt or protests.  Not exactly relevant

gandalf might move it.

Stratos wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 3:21pm:

Question... How do you even know they are Muslims?  There are a few Hijabs there, but honestly this doesn't seem like a Muslim thing.  It's a peace rally

Yes, Stavros, but when they say peace, they actually mean war. You can never take the Muselman at face value. You have to interpret these things.

Herbie and Y are the experts. Many of those so-called peace protesters are actually rallying to make clitorectomies mandatory.

You see? If it wasn't for Herbie and Y, I never would have picked that up.

Stratos wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 4:28pm:

Substantiating claims with Pickering now?  No reference to Morsi, Egypt or protests.  Not exactly relevant gandalf might move it.

Not a chance. G's of the Book. He sees the value in having scholars like Herbie and Y interpret the words of the Muselman for us laypeople.

Karnal wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 4:52pm:

Yes, Stavros, but when they say peace, they actually mean war.

We're through the looking glass now.  Your caricature is actually less extreme than that of an actual person.  Up your game karnal!

no, wait I got this

Shame Karnal, Shame

Stratos wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 5:03pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 4:52pm: Yes, Stavros, but when they say peace, they actually mean war. We're through the looking glass now.  Your caricature is actually less extreme than that of an actual person.  Up your game karnal!

I know. I realized a very long time ago that I can't possibly compete with Y. Herbie's a bit newer, but I've given up with him too - they trump my posts each and every time.

Pathetic, leftards, just pathetic.

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 4:21pm:

Stratos wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 3:21pm: Question... How do you even know they are Muslims?  There are a few Hijabs there, but honestly this doesn't seem like a Muslim thing.  It's a peace rally What's that expression about it being better to say nothing than open your mouth and prove you are a ... ? Here's some reading matter, S. link (I'm still in shock that one-time Far Left luvvie Pickering had his epiphany... )

Hi Herbert,

I was impressed with the LP article/comment.

http://pickeringpost.com/story/only-a-racist-would-call-us-racist/2671

Quote:

.....Do the moneyed immigrants who have arrived here illegally on boats care about the destitution they left behind or the places in the queue they stole from others? Do they really care for their poor and vulnerable who are without the money to buy food, let alone pay Indonesian smugglers? Their poor and dislocated desperately need them back there but do they care? No, they don’t care! If Indonesia invaded Australia (won’t happen of course) would we catch smugglers’ boats to New Zealand or would we stay and fight for our homeland? Silly question, eh.

Australians, are not moslems.

And moslems cannot 'be' Australians, because moslems, are moslems, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.


Dictionary;
Muslim = = a follower of Islam.

Yadda wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 6:26pm:

And moslems cannot 'be' Australians, because moslems, are moslems, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.

Enlighten me, is your nationality worth more than your faith?  or is your faith less imortant

Stratos wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 6:31pm:

Yadda wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 6:26pm: And moslems cannot 'be' Australians, because moslems, are moslems, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Enlighten me, is your nationality worth more than your faith?  or is your faith less imortant

Stratos,

I do not follow a faith that demands [on pain of death] that i must struggle to destroy the nation that i live in, that sustains me [because i am surrounded by infidels] - rather my faith demands the opposite of me.




Yadda said....
"I do not follow a faith that demands [on pain of death]...."


Yadda said....

Quote:

1/ ISLAM is a vicious, and deceitful, death cult; "...the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him." hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260 2/ Moslems, are moslems; Dictionary; Muslim = = a follower of Islam.

Yadda said....
"....rather my faith demands the opposite of me."

But not moslems.

Moslems cannot 'be' 'Australian', because moslems, are obligated to be moslems, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.






Quote:

Here, for example, are two very illuminating passages from the canonical Life of Mohammed by Ibn Ishaq, as translated by A. Guillaume, and a third passage, from the earliest known Muslim historian. Ishaq: 204 - "'Men, do you know what you are pledging yourselves to in swearing allegiance to this man [Muhammad]?' 'Yes. In swearing allegiance to him we are pledging to wage war against all mankind.'" Ishaq:231 - "Muslims are one ummah (community) to the exclusion of all men. Believers are friends of one another to the exclusion of all outsiders." And here is Al-Tabari, a very early Muslim historian, in book 9, chapter or section 69, reporting words that Muslims believe to have been said by Mohammed himself - "Killing infidels is a small matter to us". These texts are not fossils from a distant past. They are not dead letters. They are still 'live' and carry tremendous weight in the imagination and practice of many Muslims around the world. ...DDA

Google it.

Stratos wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 6:31pm:

Yadda wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 6:26pm: And moslems cannot 'be' Australians, because moslems, are moslems, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Enlighten me, is your nationality worth more than your faith?  or is your faith less imortant

Y’s a Karmic Khristian, but his religion trumps his Australianess each and every time.

They worship a primative god called Yahweh, I believe, a most vengeful deity. He’s not too fond of Moslems, hence Y’s righteous scorn and loathing of the Muselman.

Y’s hatred, you see, is decreed by Gud.

Yadda said...

Google it.

Karnal wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 7:12pm:

Stratos wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 6:31pm: Yadda wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 6:26pm: And moslems cannot 'be' Australians, because moslems, are moslems, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Enlighten me, is your nationality worth more than your faith?  or is your faith less imortant Y’s a Karmic Khristian, but his religion trumps his Australianess each and every time. They worship a primative god called Yahweh, I believe, a most vengeful deity.

Do pay attention, K.

He is a jealous God.

So do not 'play away', don't be a worshipper of idols [......................or a black meteorite] !








Quote:

He’s not too fond of Moslems, hence Y’s righteous scorn and loathing of the Muselman.

Exactly so, K.

My God doesn't like muzzel-men, coz the muzzel-men have sworn to murder his [my God's] children.

K, would you feel affection, for a group of people who throughout recorded history, had been murdering YOUR children ?iQuote:

Y’s hatred, you see, is decreed by Gud. Yadda said... Google it.

Y’s vast and measured and categorised 'hatred' of muzzel-men you see [according to K], must directly DEFINED by Y's exposing the the hatred of muzzel-men, for everyone who is not a muzzel-man.

So, to expose the hatred of the muzzel-men, for everyone who is not a muzzel-man, IS A HATRED IN ITS OWN RIGHT.

I most certainly would not feel affection for those who, throughout recorded history, had been murdering MY children, Y. Your god must hate such infidels.

I mean, look at them - little girls holding peace placards. Whoever would have thought such seemingly innocent youth as these were secretly murdering  Gud’s children?

Typical. Don’t worry though - we certainly won’t be spending Eternity with them. They’ll get what’s coming, Y, I’m certain of it.

Aren’t you?

Karnal wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 7:53pm:

I most certainly would not feel affection for those who, throughout recorded history, had been murdering MY children, Y. Your god must hate such infidels. I mean, look at them - little girls holding peace placards. Whoever would have thought such seemingly innocent youth as these were secretly murdering  Gud’s children? Typical. Don’t worry though - we certainly won’t be spending Eternity with them. They’ll get what’s coming, Y, I’m certain of it. Aren’t you?

Yes it is true K, everywhere in the world where the children of the moslems go, with their messages and their placards of peace, they bring the blessings of their religion with them, to their lucky hosts.

http://oedipuslex.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/wtc-9-11.jpg



Many moslems here in Australia too, wanted to give all Australians a blessing, at the Melbourne Cricket Ground, on Grand Final day [a few years ago], it would have been a big firework blessing i'm told.

Such devotions of peace.

I'm sure that the moslem children would have had a peace sign for that big firework too.


Quote:

"Whoever would have thought such seemingly innocent youth as these were secretly murdering  Gud’s children? "

Google;
mcg bombing plot by 'terrorists'




And i found it funny [hilarious eh?], how the Australian mainstream media, couldn't bring themselves to associate the MCG bombing plot, with mainstream ISLAM or with mainstream moslems,
....so the Australian mainstream media just decided to refer to those bomb plotters as 'terrorists'.

That was creative of our Australian 'investigative' journalists, wasn't it!!

I mean there is absolutely nothing wrong with referring to the bomb plotters as 'terrorists', coz 'terrorists' is a good catch-all type of phrase, isn't it.




+++

So tell us, who is your Gud, K ?

Does Gud live under a stone ?

I'm suggesting that, coz i guessing that your Gud, doesn't like the bright daylight too much ?

Yadda wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 9:54pm:

Many moslems here in Australia too, wanted to give all Australians a blessing, at the Melbourne Cricket Ground, on Grand Final day [a few years ago], it would have been a big firework blessing i'm told. Such devotions of peace. I'm sure that the moslem children would have had a peace sign for that big firework too. Quote: "Whoever would have thought such seemingly innocent youth as these were secretly murdering  Gud’s children? " Google; mcg bombing plot by 'terrorists' And i found it funny [hilarious eh?], how the Australian mainstream media, couldn't bring themselves to associate the MCG bombing plot, with mainstream ISLAM or with mainstream moslems, ....so the Australian mainstream media just decided to refer to those bomb plotters as 'terrorists'.

The description of a YOUTUBE video at;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jT6ldUu4-4


Quote:

"A Melbourne Muslim cleric, found guilty of a terror plot to 'blow up' the Melbourne Cricket Ground speaks candidly about his intentions. It is revealed however, that he has been living off state handouts for 19 years, and married an Australian Muslim to prevent his deportation. They went on to have 7 kids together, all funded by state handouts."

To me, that description, sounds more like a description of a destructive 'cancerous' growth, than a description of a human being.

Karnal wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 3:08pm:

I'm hardly an atheist, Y. I believe in Gud.

So who is this Gud, K ?

.....if you are not an atheist.

Oh, my god’s a football supporter,Y. I don’t think he likes these MCG bombing plots.

It’s spooky, but back in the 70s, those pesky Croatian Catholics had an SCG bomb plot. I’ll bet the Serbs had one to get the Croations. In fact, which group hasn’t made a bomb threat on a football club? We all have at one time or another.

Haven’t you?

Good heavens, my god must hate us.

Karnal wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 10:31pm:

Oh, my god’s a football supporter,Y. I don’t think he likes these MCG bombing plots. It’s spooky, but back in the 70s, those pesky Croatian Catholics had an SCG bomb plot. I’ll bet the Serbs had one to get the Croations. In fact, which group hasn’t made a bomb threat on a football club? We all have at one time or another. Haven’t you? Good heavens, my god must hate us.

Your Gud, is whatever pleases you, K, no ?

Good luck with that.        :D





Psalms 7:15
He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made.

Yadda wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 9:34am:

Karnal wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 10:31pm: Oh, my god’s a football supporter,Y. I don’t think he likes these MCG bombing plots. It’s spooky, but back in the 70s, those pesky Croatian Catholics had an SCG bomb plot. I’ll bet the Serbs had one to get the Croations. In fact, which group hasn’t made a bomb threat on a football club? We all have at one time or another. Haven’t you? Good heavens, my god must hate us. Your Gud, is whatever pleases you, K, no ? Good luck with that.        :D

No, Y. I have no god but God. I have no idea what "He" wants or commands - silence, mainly. I've been told God lies within. Seek and you shall find.

I've never found God, but I'm not giving up.

Gud, on the other hand, is a brand people consume in an attempt to fill up that silence. They work ever so hard to justify their fear and anger as an attempt to please Gud. They have all the answers and love to tell others how to follow Gud.

They think Gud lies without.

Personally, I have no idea. What I think is neither here nor there.

You're probably much smarter than me, Y.

Karnal wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 4:43pm:

Yadda wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 9:34am: Karnal wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 10:31pm: Oh, my god’s a football supporter,Y. I don’t think he likes these MCG bombing plots. It’s spooky, but back in the 70s, those pesky Croatian Catholics had an SCG bomb plot. I’ll bet the Serbs had one to get the Croations. In fact, which group hasn’t made a bomb threat on a football club? We all have at one time or another. Haven’t you? Good heavens, my god must hate us. Your Gud, is whatever pleases you, K, no ? Good luck with that.        :D No, Y. I have no god but God. I have no idea what "He" wants or commands ........

Here's what He commands of His people:
Mark 12:29  And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment.  31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.  32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

As Matthew put it:
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/the_love_of_god.htm

As directly opposed to the exact opposite in Islam's terrorist:

Quran Surah 61:4 Truly allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure.

Quran Surah 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them 

Quran Surah 9.111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an.....

Bukhari, V1 B2 #24 Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle.....
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/muslim_persecution_of_christians.htm


Karnal wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 4:43pm:

........- silence, mainly. I've been told God lies within.

Once a person is born again.

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God

Just as prophesied by the old covenant prophet Jeremiah, of the new covenant that was ushered in by Jesus Christ:
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

God IN us:
1Corinthians 6:19  What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/temple_of_god.htm


Karnal wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 4:43pm:

Seek and you shall find. I've never found God, but I'm not giving up.

You can ask Jesus directly, for answers. Like so many former Muslims did (their testimonies are just as valuable to help non-Muslims understand, that Christianity is about a relationship, not a religion):
http://www.muslimjourneytohope.com/


Karnal wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 4:43pm:

Gud, on the other hand, is a brand people consume in an attempt to fill up that silence. They work ever so hard to justify their fear and anger as an attempt to please Gud. They have all the answers and love to tell others how to follow Gud.

The 1600 year record of revelation of the one true God, through all of His prophets and witnesses, has the answers. All a person needs to be able to find the answers is a love of truth.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm


Karnal wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 4:43pm:

They think Gud lies without. Personally, I have no idea. What I think is neither here nor there. You're probably much smarter than me, Y.

Thanks, Pete. Do you have any personal experience with what your quotes say?

Karnal wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 9:21pm:

Thanks, Pete. Do you have any personal experience with what your quotes say?

Yes. I was born again in 2003. I went forward in what is referred to as an "alter call", when a preacher invites people to come forward, and devote their lives to Jesus Christ. This is a modern invention of the last 70 years or so, but I didn't know that. It stems from a far too simplistic understanding of this verse:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

So unfortunately it has made the doctrine of repentance a casualty of what is today peddled as a "decision". Indeed in today's "church", teaching repentance is recognized by pastors, as a good way to empty out a church! Folks don't much like being reminded of our filthy, wretched, sinful nature, and our need to repent, particularly from serial sin.

Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

But it isn't our decision to begin with, but that of Jesus Christ, and in my opinion a person will only be chosen if they have a love of truth - because Jesus IS truth.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Though I wasn't taught the doctrine of repentance, I was nonetheless filled with the Holy Spirit, in spite of the simplicity of the "sinner's prayer".
Well over the following couple of months, my thoughts gradually became increasingly evil, and my wine consumption was on the increase. All of a sudden one day I realized it, and it struck me that Satan was in the process of reclaiming my life! In my desperation in that moment, it occurred to me to shout right out loud "Satan I can't wait to see Jesus cast you into that lake of fire!", and I was immediately released. Satan cannot read our thoughts, but is in tune with our words and actions, and takes advantage of us accordingly. I don't think he much cared for that reminder, and likely realizes that if he comes back, he will be in for more of the same.
As I went through the process of sanctification, without thinking about it or realizing it I became increasingly repentant, and at the same time I kept begging Jesus to give me something to do in His service.
The church I attended at the time was an eschatologically futurist church, and while I was writing about these matters on the internet, I wound up with more questions inspired by scriptures, than I could find answers to.
So I stopped and asked Jesus right out loud "What about faithful Jews in this Christian era?"
Without even thinking about the question I had asked again, two weeks later I was handed a very specific answer, to that specific question I had asked. From that moment on I was powerfully called and have been in the service of Jesus Christ ever since.

If anyone had ever told me back when I was a hippie in the 60s and 70s, or living in and of the world right on into the new millennium, that some day I was going to be a preacher, I would have laughed in their face.

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 9:59pm:

I was going to be a preacher, I would have laughed in their face.

You have said before you don't go to church?  Who do you preach to?

Stratos wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 10:03pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 9:59pm: I was going to be a preacher, I would have laughed in their face. You have said before you don't go to church?  Who do you preach to?

Initially to the eschatologically blinded pop-"church":
http://www.christianeschatology.com/

While increasingly being called toward the 1.5 billion people that have been tragically and horrifically deceived by THE false prophet Muhammad.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 10:12pm:

Initially to the eschatologically blinded pop-"church":

Do you consider people of certain churches (excluding those that have large differences like Mormons and Catholics obviously) Christians?  Just curious

Stratos wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 10:14pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 10:12pm: Initially to the eschatologically blinded pop-"church": Do you consider people of certain churches (excluding those that have large differences like Mormons and Catholics obviously) Christians?  Just curious

The only people that are Christians are those that have been born again, as the verse I quoted earlier confirms. There is at least a remnant of regenerate individuals, even in the most doctrinally unsound institutions, including the Roman Church, LDS, Jehovah's Witness or any other cult. A person isn't saved or lost by doctrinal indoctrination, but by the condition of one's heart. Though, admittedly, some doctrines may increase the difficulty of getting there.
Rather than denominations, I find more distinct lines drawn by association.

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Like the fruit of the anti-Zionist tree.
http://www.zionismchristian.com/anti_zionism.htm

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 10:27pm:

A person isn't saved or lost by doctrinal indoctrination, but by the condition of one's heart.

Exactly so, Pete.




So those persons who love God, and who love truth, and who love God's righteousness [no matter without regard to how they may refer to themselves, 'denominationally'], are those persons who are 'gathered' by God.






Proverbs 15:9
The way of the wicked is an abomination unto the LORD: but he loveth him that followeth after righteousness.


Psalms 146:8
The LORD openeth the eyes of the blind: the LORD raiseth them that are bowed down: the LORD loveth the righteous:

Yadda wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 6:46am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 10:27pm: A person isn't saved or lost by doctrinal indoctrination, but by the condition of one's heart. Exactly so, Pete.

Ah.

Karnal wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 9:26am:

Yadda wrote on Jan 31st, 2014 at 6:46am: Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 10:27pm: A person isn't saved or lost by doctrinal indoctrination, but by the condition of one's heart. Exactly so, Pete. Ah.

Ah, ah.




US political correctness once again costing lives.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1377296416/65#65
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1379806836/50#50
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1380162579/0#0

Quote:

ABOVE - Just a typical post by Karnal. A typical post by Karnal, confirming once again, that Karnal is not willing to reveal his real opinions in this forum, on any serious issue. You do not want 'to define', or to debate with others in this forum. Your posts, all of them, reveal your intent. Dictionary; obfuscate = = 1 make unclear or unintelligible. 2 bewilder.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 7:19am:

freediver wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 7:45pm: Gandalf, how do you interpret the events in Egypt, with respect to your claims that Muslims should be judged not by their views, but by the actions of the majority? I don't really follow.

Obviously. You didn't see why the post was relevant to this thread. I asked you two direct questions about it earlier in this thread, which you moved to the new thread and ignored.

You portrayed the Australian Muslim protestors as standing up for democracy. Do you think they have a genuine interest in promoting democracy throughout the Muslim world? Or are they more interested in furthering Morsi's and similar policies, which in this case happen to coincide with democracy?

Do you think that Morsi represents the majority of Egyptian Muslims? Do you think his policies reflect the will of the majority? Is it fair to judge Egyptian Muslims by that standard?

You can’t escape, G.

Best to just confess and name names. Get it over and done with.

Do you have an opinion on the topic Karnal, or are you just trying out for the chearleading team?

freediver wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 9:59pm:

Do you have an opinion on the topic Karnal, or are you just trying out for the chearleading team?

Er, what would you like me to say, FD? I’ll sign anything you want, I promise.

freediver wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 10:31pm:

Do you think the Australian Muslims protesting over Egypt have a genuine interest in promoting democracy throughout the Muslim world? Or are they more interested in furthering Morsi's and similar policies, which in this case happen to coincide with democracy? Do you think that Morsi represents the majority of Egyptian Muslims? Do you think his policies reflect the will of the majority? Is it fair to judge Egyptian Muslims by that standard?

I have no idea, but they all seem awfully nice. Not one beheading slogan in the lot - how did they manage that?

They look more like Quakers than Muslims to me, FD.

Do you think the Australian Muslims protesting over Egypt have a genuine interest in promoting democracy throughout the Muslim world? Or are they more interested in furthering Morsi's and similar policies, which in this case happen to coincide with democracy?

Do you think that Morsi represents the majority of Egyptian Muslims? Do you think his policies reflect the will of the majority? Is it fair to judge Egyptian Muslims by that standard?

freediver wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 9:22pm:

You portrayed the Australian Muslim protestors as standing up for democracy.

They were. Morsi was democratically elected, and was overthrown in an undemocratic military coup.


freediver wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 9:22pm:

Do you think that Morsi represents the majority of Egyptian Muslims?

Clearly not. As I said in a previous post, Morsi got around 51% of a 52% turnout. In voting terms, that would make him "representative" of just over 25% of the population. So he wasn't much more "representative" of the people than say Tony Abbott's government or Barak Obama. But it doesn't change the fact that what happened to him was an attack on democracy.


freediver wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 9:22pm:

Or are they more interested in furthering Morsi's and similar policies, which in this case happen to coincide with democracy?

What happened to Morsi (and the subsequent crackdown as we are seeing for example with the treatment of the Australian journalist) was an attack on democracy. The protestors clearly indicate that their concern is Egyptian democracy. It is perfectly reasonable and logical to assume these people are genuine in their concern for democracy. Only someone with a perverse prejudice against muslims would go searching for some sinister motives that there is no evidence for or any logical reason to believe.

And I still can't see how this is relevant to the issue of judging muslims by the actions of the majority.

Karnal wrote on Jan 30^th, 2014 at 10:34pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 10:31pm: Do you think the Australian Muslims protesting over Egypt have a genuine interest in promoting democracy throughout the Muslim world? Or are they more interested in furthering Morsi's and similar policies, which in this case happen to coincide with democracy? Do you think that Morsi represents the majority of Egyptian Muslims? Do you think his policies reflect the will of the majority? Is it fair to judge Egyptian Muslims by that standard? I have no idea, but they all seem awfully nice. Not one beheading slogan in the lot - how did they manage that? They look more like Quakers than Muslims to me, FD.

Yes, they seem to have realised that the beheading placards bring them bad publicity. I suppose it is a good sign that they noticed.


Quote:

The protestors clearly indicate that their concern is Egyptian democracy.

How?


Quote:

Clearly not. As I said in a previous post, Morsi got around 51% of a 52% turnout. In voting terms, that would make him "representative" of just over 25% of the population. So he wasn't much more "representative" of the people than say Tony Abbott's government or Barak Obama.

Abbott won an election with well over 90% turnout.

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 12:35pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 10:34pm: freediver wrote on Jan 30th, 2014 at 10:31pm: Do you think the Australian Muslims protesting over Egypt have a genuine interest in promoting democracy throughout the Muslim world? Or are they more interested in furthering Morsi's and similar policies, which in this case happen to coincide with democracy? Do you think that Morsi represents the majority of Egyptian Muslims? Do you think his policies reflect the will of the majority? Is it fair to judge Egyptian Muslims by that standard? I have no idea, but they all seem awfully nice. Not one beheading slogan in the lot - how did they manage that? They look more like Quakers than Muslims to me, FD. Yes, they seem to have realised that the beheading placards bring them bad publicity. I suppose it is a good sign that they noticed.

Do you think? I'm not sure the Muselman's capable of such reflection, FD.

It's against their religion, no?

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 12:35pm:

The protestors clearly indicate that their concern is Egyptian democracy. How?

Oh, I don't know. Maybe they don't like the idea of military coups and benign dictators in charge of the place.

Quite a different political dynamic to Australia, don't you think?

There's plenty here who'd love a good old dictatorship.

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 12:35pm:

Quote: The protestors clearly indicate that their concern is Egyptian democracy. How?

Gee I don't know FD, maybe something about all the anti-military coup placards and calls for freedom and democracy. Just a wild hunch there  :P


freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 12:35pm:

Abbott won an election with well over 90% turnout.

Abbott won around 45% of the primary vote from a turnout of 93%. So just over 40% of the voting population voted for Abbott. In non-compulsory voting democracies its far worse - in the last US election, Obama got 52% of a turnout of 58% - which gives him a mandate roughly on par with Morsi's. If the military overthrew and gaoled Obama, would you consider it reasonable to start mocking and dismissing any subsequent street protests against that coup? Would you become an apologist for the coup simply on the basis that the vast majority of people didn't vote for Obama? 

Also I'm still trying to figure out what all this has to do with judging muslims by the actions of the majority.

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 12:35pm:

Yes, they seem to have realised that the beheading placards bring them bad publicity. I suppose it is a good sign that they noticed.

Yes, because until the 2012 violent protests every single one of the hundreds of muslim street protests included beheading placards and/or other calls to violence.  :P

Quote:

Oh, I don't know. Maybe they don't like the idea of military coups and benign dictators in charge of the place.

I was not asking for a guess Karnal.


Quote:

There's plenty here who'd love a good old dictatorship.

Like Abu?


Quote:

Gee I don't know FD, maybe something about all the anti-military coup placards and calls for freedom and democracy. Just a wild hunch there

 

Can you give some examples of the calls for democracy?


Quote:

Abbott won around 45% of the primary vote

There can only be one winner Gandalf. That's why we have instant runoff voting. While I support the requirement for obtaining a majority rather than a plurality, I do not think it is rational to hold a failure to gain a majority of first preferences to undermine the legitimacy of the victory.


Quote:

in the last US election, Obama got 52% of a turnout of 58% - which gives him a mandate roughly on par with Morsi's

Do you think that 100% of the people who support Morsi turned up and voted, while only 1/3 of the people opposed to him turned up?


Quote:

If the military overthrew and gaoled Obama, would you consider it reasonable to start mocking and dismissing any subsequent street protests against that coup?

No. I expect people would protest out of genuine concern for democracy. I do not however, feel the same way about Muslims. Hence the question. This is not a guess or projection on my part, but rather is based on what Muslims themselves have told me. It is rather convenient that the one time that Muslims protest in support of democracy is when it also happens to be in support of an Islam-inspired retrograde political movement trying to drag people back to the 7th century.


Quote:

Yes, because until the 2012 violent protests every single one of the hundreds of muslim street protests included beheading placards and/or other calls to violence.

It would not surprise me.

Sorry, Chief, Maybe we should ask Agent 42. He was in the bin the whole time.

He’d know for sure.

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 8:00pm:

Can you give some examples of the calls for democracy?

You are being unreasonable. A group of people protesting against a clear attack on democracy, demonstrating with such key words as "freedom" and "peace", and yes - "democracy" - but its still gotta be about evil conspiring muslims.


freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 8:00pm:

I do not think it is rational to hold a failure to gain a majority of first preferences to undermine the legitimacy of the victory.

Precisely.


freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 8:00pm:

Do you think that 100% of the people who support Morsi turned up and voted, while only 1/3 of the people opposed to him turned up?

Who the hell knows, and why does it matter? It was still a legitimate election and a legitimate result, and removing the elected leader and conducting a bloody suppression of the leader's supporters, is an attack on democracy however way you want to spin it.


freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 8:00pm:

the one time that Muslims protest in support of democracy

Muslims protest in support of democracy all the time - you might have missed the whole arab spring thing. They also often protest against islam-inspired retrograde political movements - like the regular mass protests that you never hear about in Iran.

Quote:

You are being unreasonable. A group of people protesting against a clear attack on democracy, demonstrating with such key words as "freedom" and "peace", and yes - "democracy" - but its still gotta be about evil conspiring muslims.

I am merely asking you how they "clearly indicated that their concern is Egyptian democracy". That is not at all unreasonable. It is not clear at all, which is why you are getting all antsy about my questions regarding their true motivation - democracy, vs Morsi's backwards policies.

You completely misjudged Malaysian Muslims. No doubt you will soon insist we cannot possibly know what these Australian Muslim protestors wanted and I am the only one holding an opinion on the matter.


Quote:

Who the hell knows, and why does it matter?

It matters because you are denying responsibility on the part of Egyptians for who they elect at the same time as complaining that their democracy is being undermined.


Quote:

Muslims protest in support of democracy all the time - you might have missed the whole arab spring thing.

Yeah. How's that working out for them? Is something getting in their way?

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 10:21pm:

I am merely asking you how they "clearly indicated that their concern is Egyptian democracy".

You are merely asking something thats completely smacking retarded. Carrying placards condemning a violent coup against a fairly elected democratic President is showing clear concern for Egyptian democracy. Seriously, what is wrong with you??


freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 10:21pm:

It is not clear at all

If you ignore every single thing about the protest and insist on drawing on some retarded islamophobic bigotry, then sure, its the most unclear thing in the world  ::)


freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 10:21pm:

It matters because you are denying responsibility on the part of Egyptians for who they elect at the same time as complaining that their democracy is being undermined.

Quote me. I denied no such thing.

Why would I care if nearly half of Egyptians were too stupid to go out and vote for a non-Morsi candidate if they really didn't want Morsi? More to the point, how the hell does it detract from the fact that the military coup was an outrageous attack on democracy, and something that is worth protesting over? If I didn't know any better, I'd say you are apologising for the thugs who attacked a fledgling democracy and tried to have it dismantled. All for the sake of yet another petty-minded dig at anything islamic.


freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 10:21pm:

Quote: Muslims protest in support of democracy all the time - you might have missed the whole arab spring thing. Yeah. How's that working out for them? Is something getting in their way?

What does that mean? I see you are not disputing the fact that your claim that muslims never protest in support of democracy is complete and utter bullshit.

I'm still trying to work out what this has to do with judging muslims by the actions of the majority. Third time lucky maybe?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 11:54pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 31st, 2014 at 10:21pm: I am merely asking you how they "clearly indicated that their concern is Egyptian democracy". ......Carrying placards condemning a violent coup against a fairly elected democratic President is showing clear concern for Egyptian democracy. Seriously, what is wrong with you?? ......I see you are not disputing the fact that your claim that muslims never protest in support of democracy is complete and utter bullshit.

http://cache.newzulu.com.au/en/photos/local/2014-01-25/4925/sydney-s-egyptian-community-stages/all_fullscreen/45087-img_3351.jpg

gandalf - Are those street protests by moslems, an expression of moslem support for 'democracy with ISLAMIC characteristics' ?
What i am asking is, do moslems really [sincerely] support democracy and its principles ?
Or will moslem faux 'support' for democracy only ever be on display so long, as the 'facility' of democratic principles can be exploited to serve ISLAM's purposes [....after which, moslem 'support' for democratic principles can be, and will be publicly denounced and discarded] ?









Declarations made by Mohamed Morsi [Ex-President of Egypt], to Moslem Brotherhood supporters, during the Egyptian election rally....


"The Koran is our constitution"
"The Prophet Muhammad is our leader"
"Jihad is our path"
"AND DEATH FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH IS OUR MOST LOFTY ASPIRATION!"

gandalf - Do you expect us to believe, that those declarations by Mohamed Morsi[Ex-President of Egypt], are really an expression of Mohamed Morsi's support for 'democracy with ISLAMIC characteristics' ?






Is this [below], an unguarded and true ISLAMIC opinion of the worth of democratic principles ?


Quote:

"[a respected moslem community spokesman has] called on Australian Muslims to spurn secular democracy and Western notions of moderate Islam... ...[moslems in Australia were told] that democracy is "haram" (forbidden) for Muslims, whose political engagement should be be based purely on Islamic law. "We must adhere to Islam and Islam alone," Mr Hanif [said]"

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/07/australia-members-of-hizb-ut-tahrir-say-country-is-god-forsaken-and-that-muslims-must-shun-secular-a.html

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 11:54pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 31st, 2014 at 10:21pm: I am merely asking you how they "clearly indicated that their concern is Egyptian democracy". You are merely asking something thats completely smacking retarded. Carrying placards condemning a violent coup against a fairly elected democratic President is showing clear concern for Egyptian democracy. Seriously, what is wrong with you??

The question is, what the hell is wrong with you? And the answer is Muhammadanism.
You know as well as everybody else in here, that Islam is the very antithesis of freedom, liberty and the right to self-determination. As I remember you yourself even expressed your approval of Muslims punishing former Muslims for the "apostasy" of leaving Islam. That is, punished for exercising their God-given rights to self-determination and religious freedom. Punished for coming to know the love of the one true God of the scriptures, and beginning a life in Jesus Christ.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm

For 1400 years, Muhammad's antichrist followers have had to be ruled by iron-fisted totalitarian regimes and rulers. Just as we find around the world today, in the murder, mayhem, misery and slavery of Islam controlled countries. Particularly the slavery of women.

The false pretense of democracy served as the primary tool for the true fundamental Islamist followers of Muhammad, to further dupe their western dhimmis into supporting the so-called "Arab Spring", which as has become obvious, was just another means of completing the demonic antichrist subjugation and slavery of Islamic sharia rule of law, in the countries thus infected. As particularly evidenced by the increase in the murder of Christians and destruction of churches in those same countries.
https://www.google.com/#q=churches+destroyed+egypt

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Bukhari B58, #188 Narrated 'Amr bin Maimun: During the pre-lslamic period of ignorance I saw a she-monkey surrounded by a number of monkeys. They were all stoning it, because it had committed illegal sexual intercourse. I too, stoned it along with them.

WTF? Is that supposed to be Muhammed telling the story? Not only did he project onto Jews and Christians, but even monkeys!


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You are merely asking something thats completely smacking retarded.

No need to get all hot under the collar Gandalf. It is a fair and reasonable question. It would certainly be naive to assume that these Muslims would go from beheading placards to campaigners for western cultural imperialism.


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Carrying placards condemning a violent coup against a fairly elected democratic President is showing clear concern for Egyptian democracy.

Either that, or support for the particular leader and his policies, without necessarily having any concern for the process at all. Hence the question Gandalf. In what way do they make it clear that their concern is actually for democracy?


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Why would I care if nearly half of Egyptians were too stupid to go out and vote for a non-Morsi candidate if they really didn't want Morsi?

Because support for democracy in the absence of concern for the outcome makes little sense. You might as well complain about the overthrow of Hitler.


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More to the point, how the hell does it detract from the fact that the military coup was an outrageous attack on democracy, and something that is worth protesting over?

Because support for democracy in the absence of concern for the outcome makes little sense.


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If I didn't know any better, I'd say you are apologising for the thugs who attacked a fledgling democracy and tried to have it dismantled. All for the sake of yet another petty-minded dig at anything islamic.

I am suspicious of your claim that these protestors were more interested in promoting democracy than Morsi. They protested even louder against the establishment of democracy in other Muslim countries. It would be naive for me to take your claims at face value. You are projecting again, and most likely getting it arse about face, just like you did with those Malaysian Muslims you claim to have personal experience with.


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What does that mean? I see you are not disputing the fact that your claim that muslims never protest in support of democracy is complete and utter bullshit.

I have seen Australian Muslims claim that the Arab spring is a rejection of western concepts like freedom and democracy and will inevitably establish a proper Islamic state. The current events in Syria certainly paint a bleak picture. They have not even overthrown the government yet and already the various Muslim rebel groups are slaughtering each other. In the name of Islam, of course. I have no doubt that many of the participants, including some Muslims, genuinely support, or at least tolerate democracy, in theory, and want some extent of social and political liberalisation. I would not count the Australian Muslim protestors among them, just because you say they are.


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I'm still trying to work out what this has to do with judging muslims by the actions of the majority. Third time lucky maybe?

Do you understand why I asked if the majority were responsible for electing Morsi and whether it is reasonable to judge them for doing so?

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 9:07am:

It would certainly be naive to assume that these Muslims would go from beheading placards to campaigners for western cultural imperialism.

::) Ah yes, of course, they were exactly the same people. How silly of me to forget.


freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 9:07am:

Either that, or support for the particular leader and his policies, without necessarily having any concern for the process at all.

The placards I posted are all about anti-coup, anti-violence and "free Egypt". Only in FD land is that not a clear case of support for democracy and concern for the process.

Support for Morsi and his policies are irrelevant here. What seems to fly right over your head is the fact that having a fair and democratic system just happens to benefit Morsi supporters - thus support for Morsi and support for freedom and democracy in Egypt are one in the same. Clearly you want to pin a "pro-Morsi" tag on these protestors in the fallacious belief that pro-Morsi (read: pro Islam) necessarily equals pro-tyranny/anti-democracy. But its not even clear that these people are pro-Morsi - the only thing that is patently and undeniably obvious is that these people are protesting against undemocratic coups, violence and attacks on Egyptian freedom and democracy. It takes a supreme effort in obfuscation and mental gymnastics to reject what is plain in front of your face - but you are making a sterling effort I must say.


freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 9:07am:

Because support for democracy in the absence of concern for the outcome makes little sense.

What are you talking about?? Clearly the pro-Morsi crowd had concern for the outcome since they were about the only people who came out to vote in force. Your criticism belongs to the people who opposed Morsi but couldn't be bothered voting, and then went and supported the undemocratic coup. Presumably the people *YOU* are standing up for.


freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 9:07am:

They protested even louder against the establishment of democracy in other Muslim countries.

"They"? Who's "they"? The exact same people? What protests anyway?


freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 9:07am:

am suspicious of your claim that these protestors were more interested in promoting democracy than Morsi.

What claim?? I really should compile a list of all the crap you make up about me.


freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 9:07am:

Do you understand why I asked if the majority were responsible for electing Morsi and whether it is reasonable to judge them for doing so?

No, really I don't. Its the most nonsensical non-point you have come up with for a long time.

Obviously the majority didn't vote for Morsi, but who is judging them, and/or why would it be reasonable to judge them in this context?

Actually, I *DO* judge the morons who camped in Tahrir square and forced Mubarak to stand aside for democracy, and then couldn't even be bothered voting to keep Morsi out, and then came crying to the army to dismantle the democracy they had just over a year ago fought so hard for. No idea what thats got to do with these protestors in Sydney though.

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The placards I posted are all about anti-coup, anti-violence and "free Egypt".

Surely there was one that specifically mentioned democracy?


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Only in FD land is that not a clear case of support for democracy and concern for the process.

It could be either. It certainly is not clear that their concern is for democracy rather than support for Morsi's agenda.


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Support for Morsi and his policies are irrelevant here.

That is your argument? The Muslims were not motivated by their support for Morsi because it is irrelevant?


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What seems to fly right over your head is the fact that having a fair and democratic system just happens to benefit Morsi supporters

You would think that, unless you actually read my posts. I made this point in every single one recently.


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thus support for Morsi and support for freedom and democracy in Egypt are one in the same

Are you suggesting it is impossible to oppose democracy while supporting Morsi's agenda?


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Clearly you want to pin a "pro-Morsi" tag on these protestors in the fallacious belief that pro-Morsi (read: pro Islam) necessarily equals pro-tyranny/anti-democracy.

For the moment I will settle for asking you to explain how the protestors made it clear that their concern was for democracy rather than Morsi's agenda. Saying they are the same thing kind of misses the point, so I find it rather ironic that you introduce this claim by insisting I missed a point that I have been making in every post.

I did not have an anti-democratic agenda in mind. It is probably more about being pro female genital mutilation etc.


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But its not even clear that these people are pro-Morsi - the only thing that is patently and undeniably obvious is that these people are protesting against undemocratic coups, violence and attacks on Egyptian freedom and democracy.

So it is not in fact clear that they support, and are motivated by their interest in democracy? Funny how you can be so certain they support democracy, but so indecisive about whether they support Morsi and his agenda.


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It takes a supreme effort in obfuscation and mental gymnastics to reject what is plain in front of your face - but you are making a sterling effort I must say.

I am asking you to explain your own claim. If they did somehow make it clear that their primary interest is democracy, I will accept that.


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What are you talking about?? Clearly the pro-Morsi crowd had concern for the outcome since they were about the only people who came out to vote in force.

I was talking about you and the Australian Muslim protestors, who you claim were motivated by an interest in democracy.


Quote:

Your criticism belongs to the people who opposed Morsi but couldn't be bothered voting, and then went and supported the undemocratic coup. Presumably the people *YOU* are standing up for.

I am asking you to justify the claim you made about Australian Muslims promoting democracy.


Quote:

Obviously the majority didn't vote for Morsi, but who is judging them, and/or why would it be reasonable to judge them in this context?

Because Morsi has some clearly objectionable policies. It is naive, even irrational for you to assume the Australian protestors come out in support of democracy in the one case where doing so also happens to be supporting dragging people back into the 7th century. In order to put a positive spin on this for Muslims, you must insist that the issue is entirely about democracy, ignore the actual policies involved, then project this stance onto the Muslim protestors.

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 11:45am:

I was talking about you and the Australian Muslim protestors, who you claim were motivated by an interest in democracy.

Gee this is really not getting through is it?

1. Dictator is ousted from office in a wave of democratic protests
2. As a result, free and fair elections are held and one guy (doesn't matter who) is fairly elected President
3. President is soon overthrown by a distinctly undemocratic military coup, bloody crackdown of supporters ensues
4. Protest occurs in Australia condemning the coup and violence and the attack on freedom and democracy.

From this FD concludes that there is reasonable grounds to be suspicious that the protestors mentioned in point 4 are actually anti-democracy, anti-freedom and the usual Islamic fundamentalist kill-joys.  :P


freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 11:45am:

I am asking you to justify the claim you made about Australian Muslims promoting democracy.

Yes because the fact that they are clearly protesting the removal of a democratically elected President and specifically condemning the violence and attack on freedom - is nowhere near enough evidence that they were promoting democracy.  ::)


freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 11:45am:

Because Morsi has some clearly objectionable policies.

Such as?


freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 11:45am:

It is naive, even irrational for you to assume the Australian protestors come out in support of democracy in the one case where doing so also happens to be supporting dragging people back into the 7th century.

Yes, and what was Morsi's grand agenda for bringing Egyptian people back to the 7th century? Feel free to answer with actual facts this time.

I really don't see why this discussion shouldn't be merged with the Egyptian protest thread.

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Protest occurs in Australia condemning the coup and violence and the attack on freedom and democracy.

Would you mind pointing out the bit about freedom and democracy?


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From this FD concludes that there is reasonable grounds to be suspicious that the protestors mentioned in point 4 are actually anti-democracy, anti-freedom and the usual Islamic fundamentalist kill-joys.

I am suspicious because I have not heard anything about freedom or democracy from them, and the words were not used on any of their placards. The "progressive" Australian Muslims have every chance to make themselves known. When the beheading placards turned up would have been a good time. It would be naive not to be suspicious of claims that they all happened to come out in support of "have another cliterectomy" Morsi.


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Yes because the fact that they are clearly protesting the removal of a democratically elected President and specifically condemning the violence and attack on freedom

I don't recall seeing anything about freedom either.


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I really don't see why this discussion shouldn't be merged with the Egyptian protest thread.

I acknowledge that I have failed to get you to respond to the relevant aspects.

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:10pm:

I don't recall seeing anything about freedom either.

Thats because you never even bothered to look at the images I posted.

Here are the specific references to freedom that FD inexplicably missed:

http://cache.newzulu.com.au/en/photos/local/2014-01-25/4925/sydney-s-egyptian-community-stages/all_fullscreen/45079-img_3295.jpg

http://cache.newzulu.com.au/en/photos/local/2014-01-25/4925/sydney-s-egyptian-community-stages/all_fullscreen/45088-img_3358.jpg

In fact almost all the images in that collection contained the most prominent placard that read "Justice Freedom Peace: Humanity in Crisis"

Also, anti-military coup:

http://cache.newzulu.com.au/en/photos/local/2014-01-25/4925/sydney-s-egyptian-community-stages/all_fullscreen/45089-img_3359.jpg

anti-violence/pro-peace:

http://cache.newzulu.com.au/en/photos/local/2014-01-25/4925/sydney-s-egyptian-community-stages/all_fullscreen/45078-img_3290.jpg

Oh look FD, the magic D word, just for you:

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/anti-egyptian-government-protestors-sydney-against-current-regime-march-streets-australia-january-37073765.jpg

Got any more stupid smears you want debunked?

Fair enough. You found one poster promoting democracy. I guess that counts as clearly indicating what the Muslim protestors are mainly concerned about.

BTW, how would you interpret it if there was one beheading poster?

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 10:50pm:

Fair enough. You found one poster promoting democracy. I guess that counts as clearly indicating what the Muslim protestors are mainly concerned about. BTW, how would you interpret it if there was one beheading poster?

Either those holding posters suggesting support for democracy are willful liars, who actually understand who the ultimate arbiters of Islam must necessarily be, or they are so mentally challenged they do not possess the critical thinking skills to figure it out. Perhaps as stupid as those involved in the so-called "Arab Spring", carrying democracy signs in Iran for example, who could have ever thought that Islam could ever result in freedom, when in fact the 1400 year history of Islam suggests it always results in slavery.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/islamic_slavery_dhimmitude.htm

It is not possible for nation filled with antichrists to rule themselves peacefully under a democracy. The collective voice of the people is.......guess what..........antichrist!

1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Someone with the capacity for critical thought can easily understand, that the ultimate arbiters among Satan's people must necessarily be, the most morally reprobate that wield the largest beheading knives in one hand, and the Quran and hadith in the other.

The part that is so surprising is that dhimmi dupes don't seem to understand the future that they are necessarily consigning their heirs to - future generations to. Even when they are offered small windows on that future and the ultimate arbiters of Islam like the Taliban, or these guys:

AP - December 06, 2006 MOGADISHU, Somalia - "Residents of a southern Somalia town who do not pray five times a day will be beheaded, an Islamic courts official said Wednesday, adding the edict will be implemented in three days."

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 9:05pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 1st, 2014 at 8:10pm: I don't recall seeing anything about freedom either. Thats because you never even bothered to look at the images I posted. Here are the specific references to freedom that FD inexplicably missed: http://cache.newzulu.com.au/en/photos/local/2014-01-25/4925/sydney-s-egyptian-community-stages/all_fullscreen/45079-img_3295.jpg http://cache.newzulu.com.au/en/photos/local/2014-01-25/4925/sydney-s-egyptian-community-stages/all_fullscreen/45088-img_3358.jpg In fact almost all the images in that collection contained the most prominent placard that read "Justice Freedom Peace: Humanity in Crisis" Also, anti-military coup: http://cache.newzulu.com.au/en/photos/local/2014-01-25/4925/sydney-s-egyptian-community-stages/all_fullscreen/45089-img_3359.jpg anti-violence/pro-peace: http://cache.newzulu.com.au/en/photos/local/2014-01-25/4925/sydney-s-egyptian-community-stages/all_fullscreen/45078-img_3290.jpg

This kid who lives in Egypt will tell you why they got rid of Morsi,your rent a crowd might object to what this kid says.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXtDflT38AQ

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 10:50pm:

Fair enough. You found one poster promoting democracy. I guess that counts as clearly indicating what the Muslim protestors are mainly concerned about.

Are you trying to be stupid? Honest question FD.

Morsi supporters clearly benefited from democracy, and lost out when that democracy was attacked. Would you like to explain to me why on earth these supporters would *NOT* want to go out and promote democracy?

Just about every picture makes some mention to "freedom" "peace" "justice" or "anti-military coup".

Do you think those key words say anything about their support for democracy FD?

Quote:

Would you like to explain to me why on earth these supporters would *NOT* want to go out and promote democracy?

Because it might work against their interests in most places. Because they might be ideologically opposed to democracy itself.

I was trying to be fair Gandalf. That is exactly what I was asking for. Was there only one pro-democracy poster that you are aware of? Do you know if it was a Muslim behind it, or if any Muslims spoke out and specifically mentioned democracy?


polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 8:59am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 1st, 2014 at 11:51pm: Or did you perhaps hope your tacit approval being banished to the "extremism exposed" section made it go away? Perhaps you could interpret for me what you meant when you said: "The truth is, we are talking about whether or not muslims have the right to introduce hudud apostasy and adultery laws on themselves, and only on themselves." Sorry Pete, I take it back. You don't remember wrong, you just can't comprehend basic English. If you can be bothered trawling through that tedious thread (don't blame you if you don't) you will see that I explicitly stated my objection to such an idea. But it doesn't mean that the Chinese and Indian Malaysians don't accept that idea.

I also found it quite strange that Gandalf would project Islamic ideas that he himself claims to reject onto non-Muslims who have no rational reason to hold them (and every reason to oppose creeping Islamisation via Muslims killing people in the name of Islam). The spiel about Muslims having a "right" to execute apostates because it only applies to "themselves" (it is a racist law) came out of the blue. As far as I can tell Gandalf made it up on the spot.

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 9:40am:

Because it might work against their interests in most places. Because they might be ideologically opposed to democracy itself.

Or maybe they are Egyptians who support Morsi and support the way that he was legitimately elected in a free and fair democratic election - and are therefore protesting against the attack on democracy. Crazy thought I know.


freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 9:40am:

I was trying to be fair Gandalf. That is exactly what I was asking for. Was there only one pro-democracy poster that you are aware of? Do you know if it was a Muslim behind it, or if any Muslims spoke out and specifically mentioned democracy?

Trying to be fair  ::)

Why the hell would you be interested in why there is only one picture of a democracy picture? It was pretty bloody big one, the biggest one there by the looks of it. Do you think it was a mistake? Do you think the islamic censors somehow missed it?

Answer my last question FD, do you think its fair to say that placards calling for "freedom" and non-violence and justice and peace and anti-military coup symbolises support for democracy?

Previously you built your case largely on the assumption that the word "freedom" (which you have previously specifically pinned to democracy) was not mentioned. After I pointed out that in fact the word was held by just about every freaking person at the protest you quietly tried to sneak away from it - pathetically turning the focus on the fact that there is "only" one rather bloody big sign calling for democracy.

Are you seriously suggesting that calls for freedom and anti-military coup and peace is not a call for democracy??

Feel free to give a direct and simple answer that for once doesn't try and obfuscate the issue.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 10:56am:

The placards I posted are all about anti-coup, anti-violence and "free Egypt". Only in FD land is that not a clear case of support for democracy and concern for the process. Support for Morsi and his policies are irrelevant here. What seems to fly right over your head is the fact that having a fair and democratic system just happens to benefit Morsi supporters - thus support for Morsi and support for freedom and democracy in Egypt are one in the same. Clearly you want to pin a "pro-Morsi" tag on these protestors in the fallacious belief that pro-Morsi (read: pro Islam) necessarily equals pro-tyranny/anti-democracy. But its not even clear that these people are pro-Morsi - the only thing that is patently and undeniably obvious is that these people are protesting against undemocratic coups, violence and attacks on Egyptian freedom and democracy. It takes a supreme effort in obfuscation and mental gymnastics to reject what is plain in front of your face - but you are making a sterling effort I must say.

"But its not even clear that these people are pro-Morsi...."

gandalf,

Are you pretending to be the uninformed, naive moslem again - to a non-moslem audience [i.e. FD] ?

I would suggest that you definitely are, doing that.




FD,

Did you know, that gandalf clearly does not know, that the four-finger salute [in Egypt] indicates solidarity with the Muslim Brotherhood ?





IMAGE....
http://cache.newzulu.com.au/en/photos/local/2014-01-25/4925/sydney-s-egyptian-community-stages/all_fullscreen/45087-img_3351.jpg



IMAGE....
http://cache.newzulu.com.au/en/photos/local/2014-01-25/4925/sydney-s-egyptian-community-stages/all_fullscreen/45091-img_3364.jpg


Q.
Who is it that [clearly many of] those moslem street protesters [in those images] are supporting ?

Q.
Are those moslem street protesters, 'protesting' in support of Democracy and freedom ?

Do you really, really, think so ???



Google;
Egypt, four-finger salute shows solidarity with Muslim Brotherhood

The four finger salute, or R4BIA sign was made to show solidarity to the victims of the R4BIA massacre, where over 600 people were slaughtered and almost 4000 were injured.

Did you actually look it up? or just assume that all those little girls holding their hand in a particular way want to bring western civilisations to the ground and found the flimsiest excuse to support it?

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Why the hell would you be interested in why there is only one picture of a democracy picture?

Actually, at first I wanted to know whether there were any at all. You found one. I wanted to know if that was it. It helps to place it in context.


Quote:

It was pretty bloody big one, the biggest one there by the looks of it. Do you think it was a mistake? Do you think the islamic censors somehow missed it?

The way they missed the beheading poster?


Quote:

Answer my last question FD, do you think its fair to say that placards calling for "freedom" and non-violence and justice and peace and anti-military coup symbolises support for democracy?

I think it would be naive to assume that. That is why I asked for more direct evidence.


Quote:

Previously you built your case largely on the assumption that the word "freedom" (which you have previously specifically pinned to democracy)

I think you will find I did the opposite. Freedom is necessary for democracy to function properly, but that is about it.


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After I pointed out that in fact the word was held by just about every freaking person at the protest

Let's not exaggerate Gandalf. I think there were more than half a dozen people at the protest.

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 12:19pm:

The way they missed the beheading poster?

Oh, you mean the poster that was part of a riot pretty much unanimously condemned and rejected by all of Australia's Muslims?  Oh yes that one.

Unanimous? Is this another example of Muslims changing their mind about what they really think?

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 12:31pm:

Unanimous? Is this another example of Muslims changing their mind about what they really think?

Ok, not unanimous, bad word.  But have a look here.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/top-australian-muslim-leader-condemns-more-violence-as-police-remain-on-red-alert-to-stop-sydney-riots-spreading-to-melbourne/story-e6frf7kx-1226475220467

and here

http://www.afr.com/p/national/muslim_leaders_condemn_violent_protests_UkritXfm5BoZTlcpiOujHN

and here

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-16/islamic-groups-condemn-violent-sydney-protest/4263884

i'm sure I can find more

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 12:19pm:

Actually, at first I wanted to know whether there were any at all. You found one. I wanted to know if that was it. It helps to place it in context.

The context is a pro-democracy rally - as per all the pro-democracy symbols - or are you still insisting that calling for freedom, justice, peace and anti-military coup doesn't symbolise pro democracy? I really don't envy you trying to keep this gig up FD.


freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 12:19pm:

The way they missed the beheading poster?

Oh, is that you attempting to paint me as a defender of the violent protests in Sydney? That protest was organized by a known fringe extremist group who probably insisted on having beheading placards.

Attempting to portray that gigantic pro-democracy banner as an aberration for those people who are otherwise all about freedom and justice and anti-military coup is pure comedy.


freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 12:19pm:

Quote: Answer my last question FD, do you think its fair to say that placards calling for "freedom" and non-violence and justice and peace and anti-military coup symbolises support for democracy? I think it would be naive to assume that. That is why I asked for more direct evidence.

Why would it be naive? Please help me understand this extraordinary feat mental gymnastics you are performing to reach this conclusion. 


freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 12:19pm:

Freedom is necessary for democracy to function properly, but that is about it.

Freedom is necessary for democracy, I get that. But isn't it also true that democracy is necessary for freedom? Think about it, how can you live in true freedom without democracy? How can you be talking about the need for freedom (and justice and peace) specifically in the context of a democratically elected government being overthrown by a military coup - and not be referring directly to the need for democracy??


freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 12:19pm:

Let's not exaggerate Gandalf. I think there were more than half a dozen people at the protest.

The signature poster at that rally was a specific call for freedom. Still trying to work out how you can claim to have missed that message with a straight face.

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The context is a pro-democracy rally - as per all the pro-democracy symbols

What symbols? Do these people not speak English? Can they not use words?


Quote:

Oh, is that you attempting to paint me as a defender of the violent protests in Sydney?

That is me putting it into context.


Quote:

Attempting to portray that gigantic pro-democracy banner as an aberration

Where did I do that?


Quote:

Why would it be naive? Please help me understand this extraordinary feat mental gymnastics you are performing to reach this conclusion.

 

Morsi is not exactly progressive. I had not seen any indication that these Muslims support democracy in principle. I have seen one now, though I cannot be sure if it was from a Muslim.


Quote:

But isn't it also true that democracy is necessary for freedom?

No. Freedom is a natural state. It existed long before people even dreamt of democracy. These days with all the people around it is pretty much a pre-requisite, but certainly not a guarantee.


Quote:

Think about it, how can you live in true freedom without democracy? How can you be talking about the need for freedom (and justice and peace) specifically in the context of a democratically elected government being overthrown by a military coup - and not be referring directly to the need for democracy??

There would be plenty of people who support Morsi and don't give a stuff about democracy, except in the opportunistic sense that it helps Morsi. Protesting what happened does not automatically put you in either group. Neither does using words like justice. Freedom certainly indicates a progressive lean, though I have seen Muslims abuse that word too.

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 10:13pm:

What symbols? Do these people not speak English? Can they not use words?

By symbols I meant English words - words like freedom, justice, peace, anti-military coup - and yes, democracy.


freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 10:13pm:

Quote: Oh, is that you attempting to paint me as a defender of the violent protests in Sydney? That is me putting it into context.

Thats the absurd lengths you will go to to smear these people. What possible relevance does the violent 2012 protests have to this protest? Why would you even mention it in the same sentence? Why would you compare violent thugs with these specifically anti-violent protestors?


freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 10:13pm:

Morsi is not exactly progressive.

Thats 1. a completely useless and subjective thing to say (also you studiously avoided my requests to elaborate on this previously) and 2. it says little about whether he is pro-democracy and whether the protestors are pro-democracy (which they obviously are).


freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 10:13pm:

I had not seen any indication that these Muslims support democracy in principle.

You don't have to - thats completely beside the point. The only relevant point here is that they are protesting against an attack on democracy.


freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 10:13pm:

There would be plenty of people who support Morsi and don't give a stuff about democracy, except in the opportunistic sense that it helps Morsi. Protesting what happened does not automatically put you in either group

Thus your misunderstanding of the point becomes clear.

I never said these people are in any particular group, that was never the point. Please go through the entire debate (though it is completely unreasonable to assume they are not). My point from the very beginning has been that they are clearly protesting against the (undemocratic) removal of Morsi, therefore this particular protest is clearly a demonstration in support for Egyptian democracy.

I see now you are trying to delve into the underlying beliefs of these people and none-to-subtly painting a sinister picture of raving extremists who want to turn Egypt back to the 7th century. Who knows, maybe they really are raving fundamentalists who support execution for apostasy. Who the f*ck cares? It simply isn't relevant to the fact that in this protest they are clearly demonstrating in support of democracy. And your bizarre "oh there really isn't enough instances of the word 'democracy' to be sure" argument makes absolutely no sense - since democracy is the exact thing that works in these people's favour. Thus there is no logical rhyme or reason to maintain this ridiculous line that you can't be sure the protest was about democracy.

And since you have singularly failed to relate this in any way to "judging muslims by actions, not views" - despite repeated requests to do so, I will be moving this whole discussion to where it belongs - in the Egyptian protest thread.

The last 36 Posts were moved here from Islam by gandalf.

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The last 36 Posts were moved here from Islam by gandalf.

What happened there Gandalf?


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By symbols I meant English words - words like freedom, justice, peace, anti-military coup - and yes, democracy.

Oh. I thought you might mean the four finger cliteridectomy symbol the girl was using. It is a symbol of Morsi's election victory and a return to the good old days. Those other words have their own meaning. They are not symbols for democracy.


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Thats the absurd lengths you will go to to smear these people.

Not the people holding the democracy placard. For all I know they are not even Muslims.


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What possible relevance does the violent 2012 protests have to this protest? Why would you even mention it in the same sentence? Why would you compare violent thugs with these specifically anti-violent protestors?

The context was the number of placards supporting each, and how you would interpret that. I have explained to you many times now that it was for context.


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Thats 1. a completely useless and subjective thing to say

No it isn't. It creates a conflict where people who support democracy inadvertently support regressive social policies, and situation where people who otherwise hold divergent views share a common interest.


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also you studiously avoided my requests to elaborate on this previously

I thought it was pretty obvious.


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it says little about whether he is pro-democracy and whether the protestors are pro-democracy (which they obviously are).

Who is he? The one holding the democracy poster is obviously pro-democracy. For the rest, it is hard to tell how many might merely be pro-Morsi.


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You don't have to - thats completely beside the point. The only relevant point here is that they are protesting against an attack on democracy.

No Gandalf. That is not the "only relevant point", but rather how you wish to spin it. It is like the Malaysia debate where you dreamt up all sorts of possibilities to avoid acknowledging the one that actually made sense, except at least in this case you have a plausible one.


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My point from the very beginning has been that they are clearly protesting against the (undemocratic) removal of Morsi, therefore this particular protest is clearly a demonstration in support for Egyptian democracy.

Half of the protestors may well be in support of Morsi retaking Egypt violently and installing himself as dictator. Protesting against an undemocratic event does not necessarily mean you support democracy in principle, and you do not have to be pro-democracy to rally against it.


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I see now you are trying to delve into the underlying beliefs of these people and none-to-subtly painting a sinister picture of raving extremists who want to turn Egypt back to the 7th century.

Sounds like you are talking about Morsi.


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Who knows, maybe they really are raving fundamentalists who support execution for apostasy. Who the f*ck cares?

That's what you have been arguing about for a few pages.


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It simply isn't relevant to the fact that in this protest they are clearly demonstrating in support of democracy

An earlier post from Gandalf:


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The protestors clearly indicate that their concern is Egyptian democracy

Nice backpedaling there Gandalf. Very subtle. You have adopted an unusual strategy lately of backpedaling to the point where you deny ever having an opinion. Is this some new trick you learnt?

Tell me again, who is it that is trying to delve into the "underlying views" of the protestors?


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And your bizarre "oh there really isn't enough instances of the word 'democracy' to be sure" argument makes absolutely no sense

Now this is what a strawman looks like. What I asked is how they "clearly indicate that their concern is Egyptian democracy" (not your backpedaled version of 'being in' a protest that is "in support of" democracy).


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since democracy is the exact thing that works in these people's favour.

Obviously they support it when it is in their favour, and I have pointed this out to you countless times, but this misses the point entirely - a point you have demanded I explain over and over again, and which I have explained over and over again.

freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 7:58pm:

It is a symbol of Morsi's election victory and a return to the good old days.

It's a solidarity symbol for the people who were massacred.  The R4bia massacre

Stratos wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 8:21pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 4th, 2014 at 7:58pm: It is a symbol of Morsi's election victory and a return to the good old days. It's a solidarity symbol for the people who were massacred.  The R4bia massacre

Never heard of it. Was it done by text message?

That's the problem with symbols - people tend to attach their own meaning to them.

well, just a thought, but maybe the sign that clearly says R4bia and has a website on it, might just be talking about the event it was names after

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R4BIA_Massacre

freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 7:58pm:

What happened there Gandalf?

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 8:56am:

And since you have singularly failed to relate this in any way to "judging muslims by actions, not views" - despite repeated requests to do so, I will be moving this whole discussion to where it belongs - in the Egyptian protest thread.

freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 7:58pm:

The context was the number of placards supporting each, and how you would interpret that. I have explained to you many times now that it was for context.

How many beheading placards were there FD? 2? 3? Out of an estimated 200 people - well golly gosh thats about the same ratio as 100 protestors with 1 democracy placard. What does that say FD?


freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 7:58pm:

Half of the protestors may well be in support of Morsi retaking Egypt violently and installing himself as dictator.

Yes, clearly these people are pro violence - as indicated by all the pro-peace and anti violent coup placards, as well as the street theatre portraying the brutality of the coup.


freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 7:58pm:

Protesting against an undemocratic event does not necessarily mean you support democracy in principle, and you do not have to be pro-democracy to rally against it.

I agree 100% - and thats the point you continue to misunderstand - whether or not these people are sincere about their calls for democracy is completely beside the point. The only point I am trying to get across is that they are undeniably staging a protest in support of democracy. I never once said that these people are luvvy duvvy progressives who have an innate support for democracy.


freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 7:58pm:

Quote: It simply isn't relevant to the fact that in this protest they are clearly demonstrating in support of democracy An earlier post from Gandalf: Quote: The protestors clearly indicate that their concern is Egyptian democracy Nice backpedaling there Gandalf.

Oh look, FD wants to quibble over the use of the word "indicate". Do you think its just *POSSIBLE* that you can "indicate support" for something without being genuine about it? Neither of those statements says anything at all about their true motives, merely the simple and undeniable fact that the actual protest is about supporting democracy. Of course they may be lying and/or being hypocritical, who the hell knows? Its completely irrelevant to the simple point I've been making.


freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 7:58pm:

What I asked is how they "clearly indicate that their concern is Egyptian democracy"

I know its extremely difficult to comprehend - but people holding a demonstration against an attack on a democratically elected President, while promoting such things as "peace" and "justice" and "freedom" and "democracy", then this clearly indicates that their concern is Egyptian democracy. Or to put it another way, it clearly shows that they are demonstrating in support of democracy.

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How many beheading placards were there FD? 2? 3? Out of an estimated 200 people - well golly gosh thats about the same ratio as 100 protestors with 1 democracy placard. What does that say FD?

That's what I was asking you Gandalf. Though I am glad you understand the question now.


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I agree 100% - and thats the point you continue to misunderstand - whether or not these people are sincere about their calls for democracy is completely beside the point. The only point I am trying to get across is that they are undeniably staging a protest in support of democracy.

You also made a claim about what their concern really is - in direct response to my question about whether they were genuinely concerned about democracy, or merely supporters of Morsi whose views happen to coincide in this instance, and you have been backpedaling ever since.


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I never once said that these people are luvvy duvvy progressives who have an innate support for democracy.

I'm sure there are a few non-Muslims among them.


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Oh look, FD wants to quibble over the use of the word "indicate". Do you think its just *POSSIBLE* that you can "indicate support" for something without being genuine about it?

It sounds like you are the one quibbling. I took it to mean merely whether they (clearly) communicated what their concern was, not that they might be falsely communicating it. I asked you to show where they clearly indicated it for this reason, not because I was demanding proof that the really mean what they say they mean. That is why I told you that the democracy sign is exactly what I was asking for.

And yes, I do think people can falsely indicate their support for something, even deliberately. I have a wiki article full of examples. Ironically enough, Abu tried very hard to convince people that Islam was compatible with democracy, before being forced to peel the onion of all the ways in which Islam undermines democracy, to the extent that what you have left is unrecognisable. Of course, this was merely a "different type" of democracy, just like Islam has a "different take" on concepts like freedom.

freediver wrote on Feb 5^th, 2014 at 10:29pm:

Quote: Oh look, FD wants to quibble over the use of the word "indicate". Do you think its just *POSSIBLE* that you can "indicate support" for something without being genuine about it? It sounds like you are the one quibbling. I took it to mean merely whether they (clearly) communicated what their concern was, not that they might be falsely communicating it. I asked you to show where they clearly indicated it for this reason, not because I was demanding proof that the really mean what they say they mean. That is why I told you that the democracy sign is exactly what I was asking for. And yes, I do think people can falsely indicate their support for something, even deliberately. I have a wiki article full of examples. Ironically enough, Abu tried very hard to convince people that Islam was compatible with democracy, before being forced to peel the onion of all the ways in which Islam undermines democracy, to the extent that what you have left is unrecognisable. Of course, this was merely a "different type" of democracy, just like Islam has a "different take" on concepts like freedom.

When we [i.e. non-moslems] 'talk' with moslems we [i.e. non-moslems] must always be aware that the meaning, which each of us [i.e. non-moslems AND moslems] attribute to the words that we [i.e. non-moslems AND moslems] use can be very different.

Moslems tend to understand and conceal that very important distinction - from the party they are communicating with.

Non-moslems tend to NOT, NOT, NOT, understand that very important distinction - about the [differing] meaning of the words that are being used by each group, to communicate, with the 2nd group of people.



Dictionary,
sophistry = = the use of fallacious arguments, especially to deceive.






Why is Freediver so frightened of a moderator?
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1382236880/27#27

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e.g. We have all observed, how moslems will intentionally use a very particular form of words [sophistry] so as to deceive the 'audience' that the moslem is talking to - while at the same time, the form of words used, allows the moslem to portray himself [and ISLAM] as 'innocent', virtuous and sincere. But when we compare how moslems speak to non-moslems, and then to a moslem audience, a reasonable person can only conclude that that there are two distinct narratives being presented [by moslems], and that moslems are intentionally lying to non-moslems about their real attitudes and intentions.

Maybe some of them are pretending to be violent in a bid to put you onto blood pressure medication Yadda?

Taqiyya isn't it?

freediver wrote on Feb 5^th, 2014 at 10:29pm:

That's what I was asking you Gandalf. Though I am glad you understand the question now.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seemed to be using the argument that only 1 democracy placard suggests they were not so interested in democracy - in contrast to lots of beheading placards at the 2012 Sydney protest.

ie...


freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 7:58pm:

The context was the number of placards supporting each, and how you would interpret that.

Surely you wouldn't "interpret" that very few beheading placards at the 2012 protest means it was not violent would you? I certainly wouldn't. The "context" there was not how many beheading placards there were, but the fact that they acted like violent thugs and were demonstrating over something completely unreasonable.

In contrast, the "context" of the Egypt protest was that they were peaceful, the promotion of a peaceful message was clear for all to see, and they were demonstrating against a brutal act of violence and an attack on democracy.

FD, exactly what point were you making by  comparing the two protests again??


freediver wrote on Feb 5^th, 2014 at 10:29pm:

You also made a claim about what their concern really is - in direct response to my question about whether they were genuinely concerned about democracy, or merely supporters of Morsi whose views happen to coincide in this instance

The only claim I made was to say it is perfectly reasonable and logical to assume that these people were genuine in their concern for democracy. And it is reasonable and logical - in the absence of any other information about the personal motives of these people, there is nothing to indicate that what they are clearly indicating (ie supporting Egyptian democracy), is not their genuine belief. Note that it is *NOT* saying that this is definitely the case - its just a logical and reasonable conclusion to come to based on the facts available. The only way to reach the conclusion that these people are really anti-democratic, anti-freedom and pro-violence and oppression, is to draw on a completely baseless pre-conceived notion about these people. Another word we have for that is prejudice.

These minutes of the monthly meeting of Lakemba's Egypt club were recently leaked:


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Welcome to the meeting. Great to see so many new faces. I assume you are all here to help with the rally? ALLAHU AKBAR! And how many of you are going to bring a beheading placard? ALLAHU AKBAR! Yes well I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to leave them at home. Allahu Akbar? No beheading placards. And I want someone to make a nice big democracy placard. All... say what? A pro democracy placard. Who wants to volunteer to make one? Anyone? . How about Nigel the apostate? He was always banging on about democracy. Yeah that guy was such a douche. Good idea. You get in touch with Nigel, offer him an apology, and ask him to make a nice big democracy banner. And not some dodgy printout sticky taped to a cardboard roll. We need a massive banner, nice and shiny. It will be the signature banner. Who will sign it? No-one will sign it. It will be the signature banner for the protest. The protest cannot sign it. We have our own views. I will not sign it. OK OK, you do not have to sign it. Now, who wants to make a freedom banner? We want to chop their heads off. I see we have some volunteers to make a justice banner. BEHEADING JUSTICE! Just justice! JUST JUSTICE! Great! No wait. On your placards I want you to put only... I want you to only put Justice, by itself. JUSTICE BY ITSELF! Oh God. I mean Allah. OK, I changed my mind again. On your placards I only want to you put one word. I want you to put Justice. JUSTICE! Phew. Now, as for the rest of you... And the removal of the clitoris! OK. How about you make a freedom banner? How do you spell cliteridectomy? It doesn't matter how you spell it. There are too many letters, and white people will not understand that anyway. These banners are not supposed to be a thesis on Shariah Law in Egypt. Keep it simple. Listen, those laws were an assault on our freedom to remove the clitoris of our daughters. Morsi was to give Egyptians back their freedom. Who wants to make a freedom banner? CLITERIDECTOMY FREEDOM! Just freedom! JUST FREEDOM! One word. On your banner. Freedom. FREEDOM! OK. I think I'm getting the hang of this. This is bullshit! We just want it all to stop and put Morsi back where he belongs - in charge! You can make the peace banners then. . You want and end to what is happening. What is happening is violence, no? You want peace! . Do we want a just peace, or a lonely peace? What? Oh, right. Um, only you can decide that for yourself. But it doesn't matter. Your banner will have one word, peace. But what if people see us? I'll make sure the Ummah knows what these words mean. They are merely symbols for what we are really saying. Will you tell the Ummah that we want a just peace or a lonely peace? I will tell them that you want Morsi back in charge. Just remember, no beheading placards! Not even one? We always have at least one! How else to put the infidel in his place? Not even one. I don't want channel ten making us out to be violent thugs and giving us all that bad publicity again. We offer free headerectomy to lying journalist! That won't be necessary. There will be no more talk of beheadings! [meeting interrupted by fisticuffs] I guess that settles that then. Now for our regular order of business...

Lol, have you ever been on a committee?  Those aren't minutes

It left out the boring bits and people's names.

That's just a transcript lol, not even close to what minutes look like.

Also, no "seconding".  Seriously, have you ever even read a meeting's minutes?

I believe the fisticuffs count as seconding in this club. They even throw in a third, if they really mean it.

Can't knock too many people out, you wouldn't have a quorum

freediver wrote on Feb 6^th, 2014 at 9:48pm:

These minutes of the monthly meeting of Lakemba's Egypt club were recently leaked: Quote: Welcome to the meeting. Great to see so many new faces. I assume you are all here to help with the rally? Allahu Akbar! And how many of you are going to bring a beheading placard? Allahu Akbar! Yes well I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to leave them at home. Allahu Akbar? No beheading placards. And I want someone to make a nice big democracy placard. All... say what? A pro democracy placard. Who wants to volunteer to make one? Anyone? . How about Nigel the apostate? He was always banging on about democracy. Yeah that guy was such a douche. Good idea. You get in touch with Nigel, offer him an apology, and ask him to make a nice big democracy banner. And not some dodgy printout sticky taped to a cardboard roll. We need a massive banner, nice and shiny. It will be the signature banner. Who will sign it? No-one will sign it. It will be the signature banner for the protest. The protest cannot sign it. We have our own views. I will not sign it. OK OK, you do not have to sign it. Now, who wants to make a freedom banner? We want to chop their heads off. I see we have some volunteers to make a justice banner. Beheading justice! Just justice! Justice! And the removal of the clitoris! OK. How about you make a freedom banner? How do you spell cliteridectomy? Listen, those laws were an assault on our freedom to remove the clitoris of our daughters. Morsi was to give Egyptians back their freedom. Who wants to make a freedom banner? Cliteridectomy freedom! Just freedom! Freedom! This is bullshit. We just want it all to stop and put Morsi back where he belongs - in charge! You can make the peace banners then. . You want and end to what is happening. What is happening is violence, no? You want peace! But what if people see us? I'll make sure the Ummah knows what these words mean. They are merely symbols for what we are really saying. Just remember, no beheading placards! Not even one? We always have at least one! How else to put the infidel in his place? Not even one. I don't want channel ten making us out to be violent thugs and giving us all that bad publicity again. We offer free headerectomy to lying journalist! That won't be necessary. There will be no more talk of beheadings! [meeting interrupted by fisticuffs] I guess that settles that then. Now for our regular order of business...

Allahu Akbar!

http://markhumphrys.com/Bitmaps/peoplescube.2.jpg

freediver wrote on Feb 6^th, 2014 at 9:48pm:

These minutes of the monthly meeting of Lakemba's Egypt club were recently leaked: Quote: Welcome to the meeting. Great to see so many new faces. I assume you are all here to help with the rally? Allahu Akbar! And how many of you are going to bring a beheading placard? Allahu Akbar! Yes well I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to leave them at home. Allahu Akbar? No beheading placards. And I want someone to make a nice big democracy placard. All... say what? A pro democracy placard. Who wants to volunteer to make one? Anyone? . How about Nigel the apostate? He was always banging on about democracy. Yeah that guy was such a douche. Good idea. You get in touch with Nigel, offer him an apology, and ask him to make a nice big democracy banner. And not some dodgy printout sticky taped to a cardboard roll. We need a massive banner, nice and shiny. It will be the signature banner. Who will sign it? No-one will sign it. It will be the signature banner for the protest. The protest cannot sign it. We have our own views. I will not sign it. OK OK, you do not have to sign it. Now, who wants to make a freedom banner? We want to chop their heads off. I see we have some volunteers to make a justice banner. Beheading justice! Just justice! Justice! And the removal of the clitoris! OK. How about you make a freedom banner? How do you spell cliteridectomy? Listen, those laws were an assault on our freedom to remove the clitoris of our daughters. Morsi was to give Egyptians back their freedom. Who wants to make a freedom banner? Cliteridectomy freedom! Just freedom! Freedom! This is bullshit. We just want it all to stop and put Morsi back where he belongs - in charge! You can make the peace banners then. . You want and end to what is happening. What is happening is violence, no? You want peace! But what if people see us? I'll make sure the Ummah knows what these words mean. They are merely symbols for what we are really saying. Just remember, no beheading placards! Not even one? We always have at least one! How else to put the infidel in his place? Not even one. I don't want channel ten making us out to be violent thugs and giving us all that bad publicity again. We offer free headerectomy to lying journalist! That won't be necessary. There will be no more talk of beheadings! [meeting interrupted by fisticuffs] I guess that settles that then. Now for our regular order of business...

I love it, FD.

How did you get the minutes to Alan’s pro-carbon rally meeting?

A Headerectomy ...  ;D

'What made you smile today'.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seemed to be using the argument that only 1 democracy placard suggests they were not so interested in democracy - in contrast to lots of beheading placards at the 2012 Sydney protest.

I didn't say how many beheading placards there were. Obviously if their main interest was democracy, there would have been more democracy placards.


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Surely you wouldn't "interpret" that very few beheading placards at the 2012 protest means it was not violent would you?

Whether the protest itself was violent can be determined by whether the protest was violent, not by what was on the placards.


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The only claim I made was to say it is perfectly reasonable and logical to assume that these people were genuine in their concern for democracy.

You claimed that they clearly indicated it. If they clearly indicated it, there would be no need at all for assumptions.

freediver wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 11:20am:

You claimed that they clearly indicated it.

No, thats not even a claim - its a simple statement of fact. It would only be questioned if you are blind or can't read.

I don't think any such evidence had been presented up to then. You only dug up the picture of one of the placards later. It was perfectly reasonable to ask for that evidence.

If you have to interpret words as symbols for other words, that is not clearly indicating anything at all.

LOL FD - you were originally demanding to see evidence of the word "freedom" - oblivious to the fact that it was impossible to look at images of the protest and *NOT* see the word freedom.

Presumably you saw common sense then and realised that the word "freedom" would be a dead-set give-away. Especially when it is there together with such words as "justice" and "peace" and "anti-coup".

It is pure comedy to seriously suggest these people weren't indicating support for democracy, and thats all there is to it.

freediver wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 1:08pm:

If you have to interpret words as symbols for other words, that is not clearly indicating anything at all.

Can you please tell this to Yadda?

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LOL FD - you were originally demanding to see evidence of the word "freedom"

No. Originally it was democracy.

freediver wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 1:45pm:

Quote: LOL FD - you were originally demanding to see evidence of the word "freedom" No. Originally it was democracy.

Demokracy? Good heavens, signs with the slogans "ditch the witch" and "Bob Brown’s bitch" are most demokratic.

If JuLiar had been ousted by a military coup over the carbon tax, a significant proportion of the electorate would have supported it - as would some in the media.

That’s demokracy for you.

Ditch the witch.

I'm sure ASIO got good photos, and researched the identity of these anti-democracy, pro-fascist government demonstrators. Documented them for future reference.

It's the Western-born children of these immigrant malcontents who are the ones who end up sitting on trains with NIKE bags on their laps.