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http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl Member Run Boards >> Islam >> beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an? http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1390714478 Message started by moses on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 3:34pm

Title: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by moses on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 3:34pm

Sites that are explaining islam etc. as the beast, 666 and the false prophet are increasing daily, a couple of years ago it was very hard to find a site that named islam etc.

I believe these sites are on the right track.

Holy War
From it's beginning in the 7th century AD, islam has continuously waged holy war, jihad, against anyone who stood in its way.

This type of war, is predicted throughout the pages of prophetic Bible scripture.

The 4th part of King Nebuchadnezzar's statue wages war against the kingdom of God.

The 4th beast of Daniel 7 wages war against the saints of God.

The great red dragon (the devil) in Revelation 12 wages war against Jews and Christians.

The scarlet beast of Revelation 17:14 does likewise, and the harlot that rides the scarlet beast is "drunk with the blood of the saints" (Rev 17:6).

islam has and still is waging holy war against Jews and Christians.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I7Q9bbunRg&feature=player_detailpage

QURAN, MOHAMMED AND 666

THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION

THE BEAST OF REVELATION 13

Islam and the number 666

Googling qur'an 666 or islam beast, allah serpent or any combination of these words, will find sites where muslims acknowledge that they revere 666 as the sacred number of the qur'an.

You make your own mind up, me I believe that islam has proven beyond a doubt, both by it's past and present actions, that it is evil to the core.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 4:15pm

Could you maybe elaborate on why specifically you believe Islam is what is mentioned in Revelation?

It's one thing to think it evil, quite another to think that they will kick-start the apocalypse

EDIT: Sorry, I realised some of the references refer to the works of Walid Shoebat, who has many inaccuracies regarding his process. I found it very interesting at first, then quickly changed to annoyance that he would make such bold lies.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by moses on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 7:03pm

islam perfectly fits the beast's description:

Slaughtering Jews and Christians, intolerant, oppressive, blasphemes against YHWH/I AM/Jesus Christ, beheads people etc.etc.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 7:37pm

moses wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 7:03pm:

islam perfectly fits the beast's description:

Slaughtering Jews and Christians, intolerant, oppressive, blasphemes against YHWH/I AM/Jesus Christ, beheads people etc.etc.

If that's your criteria then it could be many things other than Islam

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by wally1 on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 7:48pm

Stratos wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 7:37pm:

moses wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 7:03pm:

islam perfectly fits the beast's description:

Slaughtering Jews and Christians, intolerant, oppressive, blasphemes against YHWH/I AM/Jesus Christ, beheads people etc.etc.

If that's your criteria then it could be many things other than Islam

The beast could be the jews and Christians.

Stealing peoples lands,

sanctions

Bombing houses, mosques, bridges, train stations.

Torture Jails

Burning, pissing on and dismembering rebel fighters.

Lying that certain countries are terrorists or have wmd's.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by wally1 on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 7:55pm

Stratos wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 4:15pm:

Good Christian this Walid Shoebat is.

‘Ex-terrorist’ Rakes in Homeland Security Bucks

Last night CNN had a “special investigation” on the fraud that is known as Walid Shoebat. It took them years to realize that he was a fraud, even after they had him on as a “terrorist expert” in the past. We wrote about Shoebat two years ago in a piece titled, Three Stooges Coming to a Campus Near You, and Walid Shoebat:”Kill them and their Children”.

CNN provided some disturbing video of Shoebat defrauding security personnel and first responders and wasting tax payer money with his lies. Hopefully it won’t be long until Robert Spencer and the rest who get paid to hate-monger to the DHS are exposed by mainstream media.

Walid Shoebat: Ex-Terrorist Fraud and Clown

Walid Shoebat is trying to make as much money off of gullible and uninformed US taxpayers as he can. He's never been a terrorist, but his story that he is an "ex-terrorist" affords him an opportunity to fill his belly on your dime, to the tune of $5,000 per lecture. By continuously paying him, our government is complicit in Shoebat's thievery

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 10:27pm

moses wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 3:34pm:

Sites that are explaining islam etc. as the beast, 666 and the false prophet are increasing daily, a couple of years ago it was very hard to find a site that named islam etc.
......

QURAN, MOHAMMED AND 666

Unfortunately that large font page you found was what I used to make the video on the subject.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj2tY3jZL3M

The following link is to the first regular web page I reported it on some years back (still the most comprehensive):
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/islam__quran_and_666.htm

While I recognize this gematria doesn't represent a majority Muslim view, here's a couple of fun links to an Islamic site.

First time I discovered this link it made the hair on the back of my neck stand up:
http://web.archive.org/web/20080105022754/http://www.66619.org/

Another page with a text version from that Islamic site:
http://web.archive.org/web/20080118111258/http://www.66619.org/thequran.htm

"The number 666 is highly publicized all over the world and it is associated with evil and danger.
However, it is not what it seems. It was a Satanic trick.
The trick was to prevent the people approaching the 666.
Satan knew that the 666 is the book of GOD and the people should be kept away from it.
According to his plan, he placed a bad image to the number 666."

"The truth is that This Quran is the 666 , The Book from The Lord of the Universe."

"The First Sura in the Quran, 666, is Praise. This sura is the gift of GOD to us to establish Contact with Him through our daily Contact Prayers. "

"GOD made His Messenger a witness with the letter Qaf and the number 666."

You can search - quran 666 - or try - sura 1 to sura 36 is 666

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 10:34pm

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 10:27pm:

First time I discovered this link it made the hair on the back of my neck stand up:
http://web.archive.org/web/20080105022754/http://www.66619.org/

I don't know if it's changed since you saw it, but it didn't explain...well, anything. Then it keeps flashing "welcome" over and over again.

It sounds like the whole number 23 thing to me. If you look hard enough at anything, you can get anything. With any large document you can use numbers and letters to get it to say pretty much anything at all.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 10:35pm

Quote:

It's one thing to think it evil, quite another to think that they will kick-start the apocalypse

Actually, Islam itself predicts this. Check out some of the crap that Muhammed spews about end times. It's basically Muslims killing non-Muslims. Muslims killing Muslims. All in a fight over money. It's actually kind of prophetic, except that it in reality it never ends.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 10:39pm

freediver wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 10:35pm:

Actually, Islam itself predicts this. Check out some of the crap that Muhammed spews about end times

I've had a brief look. Doesn't seem more outrageous than any doomsday story really. A few things seem borrowed from the New Testament, which isn't surprising.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 10:43pm

It's actually the banality of it that is so confronting. He could have come up with anything - a beast rising from the deep and crushing our cities for example. Or a zombie apocalypse. But no, he went with Muslims on a killing spree. Not very original, but probably easier to swallow.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 10:49pm

freediver wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 10:43pm:

I guess so, but then Islam is strictly very strictly anti drug and Muhammad would not have had the advantage of John's magic mushrooms from Patmos.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 10:56pm

Mango madness can achieve the same thing.

There are a few drugs that Islam permits, like coffee.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 11:03pm

freediver wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 10:56pm:

Mango madness can achieve the same thing.

What's this about? Genuinely curious, as I have a mango tree in my backyard and there are still a few stragglers

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 11:08pm

It all makes sense now.

Don't worry, your mangoes are harmless.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 11:09pm

freediver wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 11:08pm:

Don't worry, your mangoes are harmless.

They keep telling me that. I can't be too sure.....

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 11:23pm

moses wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 7:03pm:

islam perfectly fits the beast's description:

Slaughtering Jews and Christians, intolerant, oppressive, blasphemes against YHWH/I AM/Jesus Christ, beheads people etc.etc.

Indeed moses! While the whole 666 gematria thing is more anecdotal, Islam as the "beast" of Revelation 13, is the most hermeneutically sound conclusion that can be drawn.

Daniel defined the term "beast" for us as a kingdom, when he described the figures of lion, bear, leopard and 4th "terrible" "beast" in the figurative language of his prophetic dream.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/daniels_four_beasts.htm

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth....

So BEAST = KINGDOM

Daniel 7:4 The first [was] like a lion, and had eagle's wings...
Daniel 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear...
Daniel 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard...
Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly...

Jews and Christians widely understand those figures to have been the succession of the kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and the Roman Empire, because he did such a stunning job of describing those kingdoms that were to unfold in a succession in his future. This was a succession of satanically led kingdoms that oppressed Yahweh's people. The volume of sites in a web search of - "babylon, medo-persia, greece" - even in quotes, reveals this widely held understanding.
https://www.google.com/#q=%22babylon%2C+medo-persia%2C+greece%22

So when we find the term "beast", used again in the context of the figurative language of John's prophetic vision in Revelation, we have no compelling reason to arbitrarily change the definition.

Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
(Daniel assigned the masculine gender to his kingdom "beast" as well)

Not only is the term "beast" used, but John's vision uses the very same figures that Daniel used, when describing the composite beast in his prophetic dream!

The kingdoms that today occupy the same "seats" as the ancient kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece, are Iraq, Iran and Syria-Lebanon. The composite satanically led kingdom "beast" and final foe of Yahweh's people.

Now while these countries may not be on the same exact same page, even to the extent that Sunnis and Shiites murder each others innocents, these countries are perfectly and absolutely unified as one kingdom through THE false prophet Muhammad and his Quran:
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm#the_false_prophet

They are all perfectly united in the spirit of ANTICHRIST.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/antichrist.htm

Above is a picture of the prophet John's "whole world". So when we consider John's "whole world" through an ethnographic hermeneutic - the whole world through John's eyes in the 1st century - we find that except for the tiny little strip of land that Yahweh gave His people through an everlasting covenant, John's "whole world" carries the name of the beast. The "mark of the beast" may well be a fulfilled prophecy!

Strong's: world
New Testament Greek Definition:
3625 oikoumene {oy-kou-men'-ay}
1) the inhabited earth
1a) the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in
distinction from the lands of the barbarians
1b) the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire

We read in Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast {Islam - Muslim}, or the number {666} of his name.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm#mark_of_the_beast

We can see from the "or" that being marked by the name of the beast - Islam - is all that is necessary for fulfillment. But consider even the false prophet Muhammad's followers foreheads, and how they are perfectly united with their foreheads to the ground (in a more anecdotal fulfillment):

Consider the succession of John's 8 "beasts":
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/johns_eight_beasts.htm

Here's a verse by verse of Revelation 13:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/leopard_bear_lion_beast.htm

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The "church" should be desperately trying to bring the message to these poor deluded souls, that their time may well be running out. But unfortunately in the 19th-20th centuries the church abandoned the traditional historicist approach to apocalyptic prophecy.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 12:45am

freediver wrote on Jan 26^th, 2014 at 10:35pm:

Quote:

It's one thing to think it evil, quite another to think that they will kick-start the apocalypse

Actually, Islam itself predicts this. Check out some of the crap that Muhammed spews about end times. It's basically Muslims killing non-Muslims. Muslims killing Muslims. All in a fight over money. It's actually kind of prophetic, except that it in reality it never ends.

Astute observation. Though the Quran suggests what you point out, there is no true prophecy in the Quran since it is mainly an expression of Muhammad's overactive and self-serving imagination. However Bible prophecy does detail what you suggest, while the subject is a lot broader than only money and instead includes everything of the flesh of this physical world, and pure blasphemy against the kingdom of God in the spiritual world.

Bukhari B34 #425: Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizya (a tax taken from the non-Muslims, who are in the protection, of the Muslim government). Then there will be abundance of money and no-body will accept charitable gifts.

In other words, Jesus is supposed to come back and reject the whole subject of the Gospel, and the whole purpose that the Messiah - the Lamb of God - was made manifest to the world to accomplish!
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

The kingdoms of this world have been Satan's legal possession ever since Adam's fall.

Those of us that are saved, are specifically called out of the carnal kingdoms of this world, and are in the kingdom of God. United through the Holy Spirit, as the temple of God. Indeed the Koine Greek term "ecclesia" (that got perverted into the word "church") means "assembly of the called out".

We can see it is not only money that is the subject, but consolidation of Satan's kingdoms under Islam ("all mountaintops" as Ahmadinejad put it), and subjugation of all people therein, to the false prophet Muhammad's followers. Islam is Satan's imperialistic power in this physical world. Muhammad's followers are commanded by the false prophet Muhammad to conquer all kingdoms and subjugate all mankind to DISbelieving the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel and REJECTING the shed blood of the Messiah, while DENYING and even blaspheming the Son of God, as articles of faith in the false prophet Muhammad alone.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/

Through the "terror" and "slaughter" of the imperialism of Islamic Jihad:
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm

Islam is ANTICHRIST:
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/islam_is_antichrist.htm

It will help to consider this in the context of the prior post.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by moses on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 10:07am

At this point in time, I believe islam is most definitely a major part of the beast in the end times.

Quote:

Revelations 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

muslims love beheading people, especially Jews and Christians, for not accepting islam.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 11:24am

moses wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 10:07am:

At this point in time, I believe islam is most definitely a major part of the beast in the end times.

What would the other part of the beast be? A different kingdom?
Please take a minute when you get a chance, and consider this traditional approach to prophecy, entirely on its own merit.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by moses on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 2:42pm

The conglomeration of islam/allah/muhammad/qur'an is one evil entity.

Already supported by muslim apologists, atheists who are not neutral in their belief but very much anti-Christian / Jew and markedly pro islam, leftwingers who hate the West and Christianity. Christian churches which believe in unity / interfaith prayer meetings (muslims and Christians worship the one god under a different name) they are trying to worship allah / satan and YHWH /Jesus Christ / Holy Ghost at the exact same time.

As I see it all of these have accepted / submitted to the beast.

Making the beast that will slaughter the faithful, a mixture of islam and it's various patronisers

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 3:24pm

Maybe it was Nero's Roman Empire? Maybe it was (or is) the Pope's Catholic Church? Maybe it's the Secular UN?

Weren't there a bunch of people recently who thought it was Barrack Obama?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by wally1 on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 5:19pm

moses wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 2:42pm:

Still at the end of the day, christianity is a false religion, a religion full of mistakes, contradictions, errors, ommissions, and so forth.

No wonder there are hundreds of aussie women converting to islam, christinaity doesn't make sense.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Sparky on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 5:21pm

wally1 wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 5:19pm:

moses wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 2:42pm:

Islam is a disease ripping the world apart!!!

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by wally1 on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 5:55pm

Christians do nothing for humanity.

Oops my mistake, all they do is convert poor African muslims to christ. That's the best they can do, convert the poor illiterate Africans, cause they wouldn't try in any part of the world.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Sparky on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 6:40pm

wally1 wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 5:55pm:

Plenty of inventions, medicine, charity etc etc come out of the Christian world. All that comes out of the Islamic world is destruction. That's the thing muslims are good out- levelling things and covering female faces.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 6:47pm

Sparky wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 6:40pm:

wally1 wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 5:55pm:

I sure hope you don't drink coffee

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Sparky on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 6:51pm

Stratos wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 6:47pm:

Sparky wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 6:40pm:

wally1 wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 5:55pm:

I sure hope you don't drink coffee

Nope. Coffee vs mass crop production techniques. Coffee vs medical techniques. Coffee vs penicillin. Coffee vs ...........

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 6:57pm

The teaching hospital was an invention of the Islamic world, happy with that?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Sparky on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 7:01pm

Stratos wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 6:57pm:

The teaching hospital was an invention of the Islamic world, happy with that?

A teaching hospital?? You don't have to defend Islam stratos. I don't believe in religion but I sure can identify an utter disease of a religion when I see one. I dislike them all but particularly this mental disease. The war and destruction it creates is just never ending.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 7:06pm

Sparky wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 7:01pm:

You don't have to defend Islam stratos

I know. Still, credit where credit's due.

Sparky wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 7:01pm:

I don't believe in religion

Neither do I, other than as long as you don't bother anyone I don't care what you believe.

Sparky wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 7:01pm:

The war and destruction it creates is just never ending.

Same argument could be made for basically any culture, religion or ethnic group. I think it's far more of a human thing than a particular ethnic thing.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Sparky on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 7:09pm

Stratos wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 7:06pm:

Sparky wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 7:01pm:

You don't have to defend Islam stratos

I know. Still, credit where credit's due.

Sparky wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 7:01pm:

I don't believe in religion

Neither do I, other than as long as you don't bother anyone I don't care what you believe.

Sparky wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 7:01pm:

The war and destruction it creates is just never ending.

Same argument could be made for basically any culture, religion or ethnic group. I think it's far more of a human thing than a particular ethnic thing.

It is a human thing but silly religions isn't helping.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 7:15pm

Sparky wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 7:09pm:

It is a human thing but silly religions isn't helping.

Agreed

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Soren on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 8:47pm

Bollocks. Switzerland has not been in a war for centuries. Inhuman? No.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 9:08pm

Soren wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 8:47pm:

Bollocks. Switzerland has not been in a war for centuries. Inhuman? No.

An exception maybe. I mean damn, Australia is here at the arse end of the world and STILL manages to be involved in large armed conflicts.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 9:20pm

Sparky wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 7:01pm:

Stratos wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 6:57pm:

The teaching hospital was an invention of the Islamic world, happy with that?

A teaching hospital?? You don't have to defend Islam stratos.

I believe he is compelled to. He defends Islam like a closet Muslim, engaged in dissimulation, who's too embarrassed to admit that he is a Muslim.

Sparky wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 7:01pm:

I don't believe in religion .......

That you seem to view all religions as being the same makes me wonder how much time have you devoted to the study of scripture, fulfilled prophecy, Biblical archaeology and geography and the like.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/the_love_of_god.htm

Would you really rather have as your neighbors, Godless guys like Polpot and Stalin, or people that are commanded to:

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment. 31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Polpot for your neighbor? Or people who are filled with the Spirit, and as a result of what we are commanded, help broken people around the world:
https://www.mercyships.org/about-mercy-ships/the-result/

Help feed and educate kids around the world:
http://www.compassion.com/

Help the homeless get back on their feet:
http://www.salvationarmyusa.org/

And free those enslaved by Islam:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1j8D1j9mEc

Sparky wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 7:01pm:

...... but I sure can identify an utter disease of a religion when I see one. I dislike them all ........

But is the reason you dislike Christianity, because of the works of men, that have acted in specifically evil and UNChristian ways while posing as Christians? Are you judging the Gospel according to the works of evil men, rather than judging the actions of evil men according to the Gospel? It should be easy for even a non-Christian to tell who is and who isn't Christian:

John 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Sparky wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 7:01pm:

....... but particularly this mental disease. The war and destruction it creates is just never ending.

Did you ever stop to wonder why the targets of Muhammadan murder and persecution are primarily God's people - Jews and Christians?
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/muhammad_islam_in_bible_prophecy.htm#the_conflict

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 9:30pm

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 9:20pm:

I believe he is compelled to. He defends Islam like a closet Muslim, engaged in dissimulation, who's too embarrassed to admit that he is a Muslim.

Find me defending Muslim extremism. I dare you.

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 9:20pm:

That you seem to view all religions as being the same

Where's this from? I have suggested they are similar in some regards, and that often Christians criticising Muslims are hypocritical.

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 9:20pm:

Godless guys like Polpot and Stalin

Or maybe godless guys like Fred Hollows or Bill Gates?

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 9:20pm:

Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these

So how does this fit in with you supporting baby killing and genocide Pete?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 10:22pm

wally1 wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 5:19pm:

No wonder there are hundreds of aussie women converting to islam, christinaity doesn't make sense.

I often see Muslims make this claim. Why? Do you have evidence? Do you think that people would be attracted to your religion by the promise of sex? If you were promoting Islam in the pedophile wing of a prison would you tell them about all the children who are converting?

Quote:

Oops my mistake, all they do is convert poor African muslims to christ. That's the best they can do, convert the poor illiterate Africans, cause they wouldn't try in any part of the world.

You mean the places where the Muslims chop your head off for doing this? You must be so proud.

Sparky wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 6:51pm:

Stratos wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 6:47pm:

Sparky wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 6:40pm:

wally1 wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 5:55pm:

I sure hope you don't drink coffee

Nope. Coffee vs mass crop production techniques. Coffee vs medical techniques. Coffee vs penicillin. Coffee vs ...........

You left out camel urine.

Quote:

Same argument could be made for basically any culture, religion or ethnic group. I think it's far more of a human thing than a particular ethnic thing.

For Muslims, it is a religious thing. No other religion calls people to war the way Islam does. No other religious leader raped and pillaged the way Muhammed did.

Quote:

Did you ever stop to wonder why the targets of Muhammadan murder and persecution are primarily God's people - Jews and Christians?

I believe the pagans copped it worse. But then they ran out of pagans.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 10:55pm

freediver wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 10:22pm:

wally1 wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 5:19pm:

No wonder there are hundreds of aussie women converting to islam, christinaity doesn't make sense.

And magic flying donkey-mules, talking ants, Solomon riding on a giant carpet with all his troops and belongings, and the sun setting in a pool of murky water do?

freediver wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 10:22pm:

I often see Muslims make this claim. Why?

Because they are filled with the spirit of antichrist.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/islam_is_antichrist.htm

freediver wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 10:22pm:

Do you have evidence?

Nothing terrifies Muhammadans more than evidence, as Wally1 demonstrated through his being dumbstruck and unable to reply in the History of Mecca thread.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388067196/24#24

Here is why they are so terrified of evidence. Rather than follow Jesus Christ the Messiah of the one true God of love of the Jews and Christians - as He revealed Himself through ALL of His prophets and witnesses in His 1600 year record of revelation to mankind - whose people have followed through two covenants for 3500 years. A record that is well supported by history, archaeology and fulfilled prophecy, that is consistent with matter of fact physical geography, and can even be confirmed mathematically.

They choose to follow a violent, imperialistic, innocent Jewish farm boy beheading, captive abusing, 7th century SW Arabian desert dwelling illiterate self-proclaimed but imitation intercessor in the person of a self-proclaimed "messenger", who founded an anti-religion - with a scripture-contrary, pre-Muhammad history-devoid, archaeology-absent, geographically-impossible, reality-denying Islamic so-called "tradition" - that masquerades as thousands of years of pre-Muhammad history, yet was all created and put to the pen in the 7th to 10th centuries AD without reference to any actual historical record that preceded the 5th century AD.
An anti-religion with a carnal tradition of prostrating toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol and Kaaba in Mecca five times a day - located 1200 kilometers away from the Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs - while praying in the "vain repetitions as the heathen do" in the names of the Arabian pagan deity "Allah" and his "messenger" Muhammad. Even performing thinly veneered Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship rituals as the Quraish did before Muhammad was ever born, and "fasting" during Ramadan as the Sabian moon god worshipers did.

freediver wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 10:22pm:

Do you think that people would be attracted to your religion by the promise of sex?

Without question Muhammad did. The reason for this is they are who scripture refers to as the "children of the flesh":

Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Isn't it interesting that they proudly boast of being of the seed of Ishmael, who was specifically cut out God's covenants?

Galatians 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.

So as highlighted in the "first drop of blood" thread:
answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130919141045AAsivCo
Al-Tirmidhi Hadith 3834 Narrated by Al-Miqdam ibn Ma'dikarib
Allah's Messenger (saws) said, "The martyr will receive six good things from Allah:
he is forgiven at the first shedding of his blood;
he is shown his abode in Paradise;
he will be preserved from the punishment in the grave;
on his head will be placed the 'crown of honour', a ruby of which is better than the world and what it contains;
he will be married to seventy-two wives from amongst the 'hoor's of Paradise;
and is made intercessor for seventy of his relatives."

Thus:

Sahih Muslim B 20 #4681 The tradition has been narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah b. Qais. He heard it from his father who, while facing the enemy, reported that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Surely, the gates of paradise are under the shadows of the swords. A man in a shabby condition got up and said; Abu Musa, did you hear the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say this? He said: Yes. (The narrator said): He returned to his friends and said: I greet you (a farewell greeting). Then he broke the sheath of his sword, threw it away, advanced with his (naked) sword towards the enemy and fought (them) with it until he was slain. (also B 19 #4314)

So is it difficult to understand why so many "children of the flesh", are so willing even to travel to fight in foreign wars, with the prospect of being killed and thus on the fast track to defiling 72 resealing virgins, in the chicken and wine serving bordello of Muhammad's overactive imagination, that he called "paradise"?
http://www.brotherpete.com/#paradise

And why parents encourage their kids to strap on suicide bomb vests, believing that they will be among the 72 family members, that he will be given the authority to intercede for before God?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 11:09pm

freediver wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 10:22pm:

No other religion calls people to war the way Islam does. No other religious leader raped and pillaged the way Muhammed did.

You may be surprised FD

Read Judges 21 for an account of the tribe of Benjamin destroying (potentially mercifully, with have to check with PeteWaldo) the people of Jabeshgilead. Kids and all. The only people they spared were virgins, who they took for themselves.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 12:31pm

Which religious leader was that? Where are the Jews holding it up as a call to Jihad?

I challenge you to find one single religious figure whose raping and pillaging efforts come even close to Muhammed's. There are lots to choose from, so it shouldn't be hard, should it?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 2:20pm

freediver wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 12:31pm:

I challenge you to find one single religious figure whose raping and pillaging efforts come even close to Muhammed's. There are lots to choose from, so it shouldn't be hard, should it?

from loonwatch:

Quote:

Who was the most violent prophet in history?

Most readers will immediately assume it was the Prophet Muhammad, thanks to a decades long wave of Islamophobia and a sustained campaign of anti-Muslim propaganda. But here’s a tip: it wasn’t Muhammad. Not by a long shot. In fact, Moses had Muhammad beat by far.

But it wasn’t even Moses. In fact, it was Joshua–a Jewish prophet of Israel. Today, he is regarded by Jews as “a mighty warrior” of the faith, a victorious hero, and a righteous prophet after Moses

Quote:

Joshua sought to complete the task that Moses had left undone. It is recorded in the most sacred Jewish holy book, the Hebrew Bible (the Old Testament of Christianity), that God Himself commanded Joshua to finish the genocide of the natives living on the other side of the Jordan River

Quote:

6:21 They devoted the city to the Lord and utterly destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

However, the silver, gold, bronze, and iron were taken as plunder:

6:19 But all the silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron are sacred to the Lord, and must go into his treasury.

And the city was razed to the ground:

6:24 Then they burned the whole city and everything in it, but they put the silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron into the treasury of the Lord’s house.

Quote:

8:1 Then the Lord said to Joshua, “Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged. Take the whole army with you, and go up and attack Ai. For I have delivered into your hands the kings of Ai, his people, his city and his land.

8:2 You shall do to Ai and its king as you did to Jericho and its king, except that you may carry off their plunder and livestock for yourselves.

Quote:

8:24 When Israel had finished killing all the men of Ai in the fields and the in the wilderness where they had chased them, and when every one of them had been put to the sword, all the Israelites returned to Ai and killed those who were in it.

8:25 Twelve thousand men and women were put to death that day—all the people of Ai.

8:26 For Joshua did not draw back the hand that held out his javelin until he had destroyed all who lived in Ai.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by moses on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 4:26pm

All from over three thousand years ago?

Where are the Jews today socially, morally and progressively?

Peacefully at home trying to live a modern 21st century lifestyle.

What's important is 2014.

Today, right now, muslims are committing child sex, inbreeding, terrorism, beheading people, rape, torture and mass murder.

Each and every one of these abhorrent atrocities are being perpetrated by muslims, who can and do, fully justify their degeneracy by citing islam, allah, muhammad and the qur'an.

islam in 2014 truly is an abomination of desolation, spiritually, morally and physically.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 4:40pm

moses wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 4:26pm:

Peacefully at home trying to live a modern 21st century lifestyle.

This does not describe Israel.

Like at all

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by moses on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 4:49pm

Oh man, compared to muslims, 1400 years ahead of islam is an understatement to the extreme.

The Jews are light years ahead of the muslims.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 8:09pm

moses wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 4:26pm:

All from over three thousand years ago?

Where are the Jews today socially, morally and progressively?

Peacefully at home trying to live a modern 21st century lifestyle.

In spite of the adversity that the Muhammadans are putting them through.

Let's compare the "People of the Book" as Muslims refer to Jews, to Muhammad's followers, in terms of Nobel Prizes, to get a little better understanding of how Jews have indeed been a blessing on "all families of the earth" while Muhammad's true followers have, on average, been the exact opposite.

The Global Islamic population is approximately 1.5 billion, or about 25% of the world's population. They have received the following Nobel Prizes:

Literature:
1988 - Najib Mahfooz

Peace:
1978 - Mohamed Anwar El-Sadat
1994 - Yaser Arafat:
1999 - Ahmed Zewai

Economics: (zero)

Physics: (zero)

Medicine:
1960 - Peter Brian Medawar

Chemistry:
1999 - Ahmed Hassan Zewail

TOTAL 6, with half of them for awarded for so-called "peace", even including one to the Islamist terrorist Yasar Arafat!

The main reason is the anti-intellectualism of islam. However Muslim inbreeding is also a factor. As Nicolai Sennels, a Danish psychologist points out, that because of Muslim inbreeding:
“the ability to enjoy and produce knowledge and abstract thinking is simply lower in the Islamic world.” He points out that the Arab world translates just 330 books every year, about 20% of what Greece alone does.
In the last 1,200 years of Islam, just 100,000 books have been translated into Arabic, about what Spain does in a single year. Seven out of 10 Turks have never even read a book."

On the other hand, the Global Jewish population is approximately 14,000,000, or only about 2/10 of 1% of the world's population, yet they compose 22% of all individual recipients of Nobel Prizes worldwide, between 1901 and 2009 including:

Literature: 10

Peace: 8

Physics: 53

Economics: 13

Medicine: 43

Chemistry: 24

TOTAL: 151

From Wikipedia: "Science and technology in Israel is one of the country's most developed sectors. The percentage of Israelis engaged in scientific and technological inquiry, and the amount spent on research and development (R&D) in relation to gross domestic product (GDP), is amongst the highest in the world.[44] Israel ranks fourth in the world in scientific activity, as measured by the number of scientific publications per million citizens. Israel's percentage of the total number of scientific articles published worldwide is almost 10 times higher than its percentage of the world's population.[45]

Israeli scientists have contributed to the advancement of agriculture, computer sciences, electronics, genetics, medicine, optics, solar energy and various fields of engineering. Israel is home to major players in the high-tech industry and has one of the world's most technologically-literate populations.[46] In 1998, Tel Aviv was named by Newsweek as one of the ten most technologically-influential cities in the world.[47]"

There are only two sides in conflict. That of the freedom, liberty and right to self-determination offered by the democracy of the Israeli Jewish State VS the promise of just another Middle East, totalitarian, oppressive, sharia law ruled, little girl circumcising, multiple wife and concubine beating, Christian and Jew beheading, "apostate" murdering, Islamic slave state.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/islam_and_jews.htm

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by moses on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 3:48pm

As you say Pete:

Quote:

From Wikipedia: "Science and technology in Israel is one of the country's most developed sectors. The percentage of Israelis engaged in scientific and technological inquiry, and the amount spent on research and development (R&D) in relation to gross domestic product (GDP), is amongst the highest in the world.[44] Israel ranks fourth in the world in scientific activity, as measured by the number of scientific publications per million citizens. Israel's percentage of the total number of scientific articles published worldwide is almost 10 times higher than its percentage of the world's population.[45]

Israeli scientists have contributed to the advancement of agriculture, computer sciences, electronics, genetics, medicine, optics, solar energy and various fields of engineering. Israel is home to major players in the high-tech industry and has one of the world's most technologically-literate populations.[46] In 1998, Tel Aviv was named by Newsweek as one of the ten most technologically-influential cities in the world.[47]"

The Jews have indeed been a boon for mankind, but then again:

Genesis 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Genesis12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed: and in thee shall all the families of the earth shall be blessed.

A long time ago their many contributions to mankind were predicted.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 3:53pm

moses wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 3:48pm:

and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed: and in thee shall all the families of the earth shall be blessed.

Except those that they took off the map of course. How many genocides was it? 6? I know there were six from that one passage. There are more though.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Yadda on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 6:50pm

Stratos wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 3:53pm:

moses wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 3:48pm:

and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed: and in thee shall all the families of the earth shall be blessed.

Except those that they took off the map of course. How many genocides was it? 6? I know there were six from that one passage. There are more though.

Dog with a bone, Pete.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 7:04pm

Yadda wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 6:50pm:

Dog with a bone, Pete.

Seriously. no wait. am i having a stroke or something.

Yadda wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 6:50pm:

Dog with a bone, Pete.

Nope. Yadda just said that. what.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 7:37pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 2:20pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 12:31pm:

I challenge you to find one single religious figure whose raping and pillaging efforts come even close to Muhammed's. There are lots to choose from, so it shouldn't be hard, should it?

from loonwatch:

Quote:

[quote]Joshua sought to complete the task that Moses had left undone. It is recorded in the most sacred Jewish holy book, the Hebrew Bible (the Old Testament of Christianity), that God Himself commanded Joshua to finish the genocide of the natives living on the other side of the Jordan River

Quote:

And so on and so on...

FD likes to trott out a list of Muhammad's "atrocities" during his career. By far the worst one is the mass execution of 600-800 men. The rest are mostly in the 10s.

Joshua slaughtered 12 thousand men women and children in just one day (according to the OT) - in just one of many annihilation campaigns.

There probably wouldn't have been 12 thousand people in the total area covered by Muhammad's campaigns.[/quote]

I concede that that is a higher death toll. But consider this: both Christianity (which you were careful to link to Joshua) and Judaism reject this sort of state-sponsored violence, in their own ways. Muhammed revived it, centuries later, and Islam considers Joshua to be a highly respected prophet. Muhammed's inability to kill as many people people does not in any way reflect lack of intent. If you include Joshua, who is hardly a central figure to Judaism or Christianity, it is only fair to include Muhammed's Caliphate successors, who ramped up the death toll in line with their ability to do so.

Islam is literally defined by an expansionist militant empire, compared to say, liberation from slavery in Judaism, or love/forgiveness in Christianity.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 10:46pm

freediver wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 7:37pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 2:20pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 28^th, 2014 at 12:31pm:

I challenge you to find one single religious figure whose raping and pillaging efforts come even close to Muhammed's. There are lots to choose from, so it shouldn't be hard, should it?

from loonwatch:

Quote:

[quote]6:21 They devoted the city to the Lord and utterly destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

However, the silver, gold, bronze, and iron were taken as plunder:

6:19 But all the silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron are sacred to the Lord, and must go into his treasury.

And the city was razed to the ground:

6:24 Then they burned the whole city and everything in it, but they put the silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron into the treasury of the Lord’s house.

Quote:

And so on and so on...

FD likes to trott out a list of Muhammad's "atrocities" during his career. By far the worst one is the mass execution of 600-800 men. The rest are mostly in the 10s.

Joshua slaughtered 12 thousand men women and children in just one day (according to the OT) - in just one of many annihilation campaigns.

There probably wouldn't have been 12 thousand people in the total area covered by Muhammad's campaigns.[/quote]

I concede that that is a higher death toll.[/quote]

And gand has already conceded that it was a merciful act by YHWH, to bring all of the innocents like infants that were killed, to Himself, who were thus precluded from being indoctrinated into the abominations of their parents - such as ritualistic prostitution, pedophilia, bestiality and even sacrifice of children to idols - and thus being separated from God forever.

freediver wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 7:37pm:

But consider this: both Christianity (which you were careful to link to Joshua) and Judaism reject this sort of state-sponsored violence, in their own ways. Muhammed revived it, centuries later, and Islam considers Joshua to be a highly respected prophet.

There was nothing to "revive". The historical record of scripture, regarding those specific historical events, were exactly that. Period. Nowhere did Yahweh offer any kind of open license for His people to go out and conquer others and subjugate them to Judaism.

Muhammad isn't alone in pretending his reprobate behavior was ordained by God, as the Roman Church's murder of Jews, Muslims AND CHRISTIANS, while feigning justification through the scriptures, attests.

As Don Richardson reports in "Secrets of the Koran", "By Muhammad's day, 1,500 years had passed since any Hebrew prophet was described in the Old Testament as using a sword in the service of God. Neither Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Micah, Amos, Malachi nor any other later Hebrew prophet is described as using the sword or prescribing its use."
http://www.brotherpete.com/old_testament_violence.htm

freediver wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 7:37pm:

Muhammed's inability to kill as many people people does not in any way reflect lack of intent. If you include Joshua, who is hardly a central figure to Judaism or Christianity, it is only fair to include Muhammed's Caliphate successors, who ramped up the death toll in line with their ability to do so.

Islam is literally defined by an expansionist militant empire, compared to say, liberation from slavery in Judaism, or love/forgiveness in Christianity.

Islam is the perfect opposite of Christianity. As the negative is to a photograph.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 11:39am

freediver wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 7:37pm:

I concede that that is a higher death toll. But consider this: both Christianity (which you were careful to link to Joshua) and Judaism reject this sort of state-sponsored violence, in their own ways.

:-? We have two christians on this very forum who clearly do not reject this sort of state-sponsored ~~violence~~ genocide.

freediver wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 7:37pm:

Muhammed revived it

If by "state-sponsored violence" you mean fighting in accordance to a just war theory, then Christianity, judaism and islam are on the same page. Even Jesus was ordering his disciples to arm themselves and prepare the (violent) defense of the new religion. And Jesus' oft-quoted "turn the other cheek" command is mirrored by many (less quoted) sayings of Muhammad - such as "Faith is a restraint against all violence, let no Mu’min [believer] commit violence".

But where islam differs to christian and judaic tradition is the concept of God ordering violence amongst His followers as agents of an aggressive "cleansing" of the land (read: slaughter all who lived), to rid the world of the wicked and corrupt. For Islam, violence is ordained only for defensive purposes.

freediver wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 7:37pm:

Islam considers Joshua to be a highly respected prophet.

Incorrect. Joshua is not mentioned in the Quran.

Also, there is no "spare none who breathe" account of the conquest of Canaan in the Quran.

freediver wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 7:37pm:

it is only fair to include Muhammed's Caliphate successors

Muhammad's successors, including Umar and Abu Bakr, formalised Muhammad's rules of war even further (see Abu Bakr's 10 rules of war). Muhammad's successors instigated a new era of warfare in their conquests of such places as Jerusalem and Egypt - where for the first time wholesale slaughter and plunder were, by direct decree from the caliph, specifically prohibited. This was unprecedented, at least in the judeo-christian civilization.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 12:11pm

Gandalf, where exactly do the old and new testaments fit in with Islam? I know they believe them to have been corrupted from their original script, but how is it decided what is relevant? and what isn't?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 12:30pm

Quote:

We have two christians on this very forum who clearly do not reject this sort of state-sponsored violence genocide.

This may sound crazy, but have you tried asking them what they think?

Quote:

Are you actually trying to equate Jesus and Muhammed's approach to violence? They couldn't be more different.

Quote:

But where islam differs to christian and judaic tradition is the concept of God ordering violence amongst His followers as agents of an aggressive "cleansing" of the land (read: slaughter all who lived), to rid the world of the wicked and corrupt. For Islam, violence is ordained only for defensive purposes.

Crap. Muhammed and his merry band of rape and pillagers would slaughter a whole village for looking at them the wrong way, then claim victimhood status. Islam is a lengthy and self-justifying exercise in excusing violence and shifting blame to the non-Muslim victims.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Soren on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 1:53pm

Stratos wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 9:08pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 27^th, 2014 at 8:47pm:

Bollocks. Switzerland has not been in a war for centuries. Inhuman? No.

An exception maybe. I mean damn, Australia is here at the arse end of the world and STILL manages to be involved in large armed conflicts.

So the same argument cannot be made, as you proposed.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Karnal on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 2:24pm

freediver wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 7:37pm:

Islam is literally defined by an expansionist militant empire, compared to say, liberation from slavery in Judaism, or love/forgiveness in Christianity.

You haven't been reading Y's posts, FD.

I think we need to revise our previous views on Christianity. Y gets his information from Gud.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 2:42pm

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 12:30pm:

This may sound crazy, but have you tried asking them what they think?

It seems to me the only way a Christian could "reject" the aggressive state (ie God) sanctioned violence against the Canaanites that was reported in the OT, is to reject the authenticity of the report, and thereby reject it as part of christian doctrine. I have asked Yadda specifically if he believed the author who stated "spare none who breathe" might have misheard/misunderstood God's command - but not surprisingly he doesn't. Pete ran his usual "isn't it wonderful those babies were hacked to death and received God's mercy" line just a couple of posts up from this.

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 12:30pm:

Are you actually trying to equate Jesus and Muhammed's approach to violence?

No, and before you construct another strawman, here's a quick quiz for you:

1. Of the three Abrahamic religions, which ones believe in the permissibility of a "just war"?

A = all three.

2. Of the three Abrahamic religions, which ones' holy book justifies the genocide (men, women and children) of an entire population as a morally upright thing to do?

A= Judaism and christianity

Read into that what you will, but I merely point out these two facts to counter your claim that christianity and judaism reject that sort of aggressive state-sponsored violence, and only Muhammad revived it. While christianity was strongly pacifist in its formative years, the "revival" of state-sanctioned war happened centuries before Muhammad's time. Emperor Constantine in the early 300s stated that to forbid "the state the right to go to war was to condemn it to extinction". Christians have been flat out coming up with doctrinal justifications for war ever since.

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 12:30pm:

You base this entirely on what you (mistakenly) think you know about Muhammad's activities, not what Islam actually teaches.

There is no doctrine of rape and pillage and aggressive war anywhere in Islam's holy book - thats the point. Quite the opposite - the Quran strictly forbids any warfare that is not defensive, and commands restraint in the conduct of warfare.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Yadda on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 6:20pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 11:39am:

But where islam differs to christian and judaic tradition is the concept of God ordering violence amongst His followers as agents of an aggressive "cleansing" of the land (read: slaughter all who lived), to rid the world of the wicked and corrupt.

For Islam, violence is ordained only for defensive purposes.

Oh really ?

+++

"And fight with them until.....religion should be only for Allah,..."
Koran 2.193

"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98

"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11

"Fighting [against unbelievers] is prescribed for you, and [if] ye dislike it.....Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Koran 2.216

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123

"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Yadda on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 6:33pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 2:42pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 12:30pm:

Are you actually trying to equate Jesus and Muhammed's approach to violence?

Only the Judaism and Christianity holy books justify genocide - against disbelievers ?

Oh really ?

ISLAMIC LAW....
"Ibn 'Umar related that the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, said, "I have been ordered to kill the people until they testify that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay the zakah. If they do that, their blood and wealth are protected from me save by the rights of Islam. Their reckoning will be with Allah." (Related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.) "
fiqhussunnah/fus1_06

gandalf,

Doesn't this dissertation [above] from ISLAMIC law suggest a policy of religiously justified genocide is approved by ISLAM ?

Quote:

"Mohammed told his followers that the earth and everything on it belonged to Allah. Since everybody but Mohammedans were infidels or kuffars (non-believers), Allah has awarded their lands, property, women and children to the true believers. This provided the 'theological' justification for divinely approved criminality of every kind....This tradition of Allah giving the Mohammedans permission take whatever they like from the infidels continues to the present day.

All their ever-growing demands are just asking for what they regard as rightfully theirs in the first place, and the infidels can expect no thanks for giving it to them. Living with Islam is about give and take - we give, they take.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/09/8080-computers-worth-18-million-paid-for-by-american-taxpayers-go-missing-in-iraq.html#comment-714347

INFO sourced from...
http://crombouke.blogspot.com/2010/01/razzia-or-ghazwa-muslim-raids-of-rape.html

THE WHOLE WORLD BELONGS TO MOSLEMS

According to Allah, as per ISLAM's foundation texts, the Koran, and the Hadith....

"Or have they gods that can guard them from Us? They have no power to aid themselves, nor can they be defended from Us.
...See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"
Koran 21:43-44

"And He made you [moslems] heirs to their [non-moslem] land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things."
Koran 33:27

No ISLAMIC militaristic expansionism being encouraged there [above] ?

Here, the words of Mohammed, speaking to Arabian Jews, about their property, and the consequence for rejecting ISLAM...

"You should Know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to exile you from,,, this land, so whoever among you owns some property, can sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle."
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #009.085.077
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.053.392

+++

gandalf,

Unlike the doctrine of violence and genocide which is justified by ISLAM, against 'disbelievers'....

THERE IS NO SANCTION IN THE OLD TESTAMENT

.....TO EITHER KILL PEOPLE, OR TO DESTROY NATIONS OF PEOPLE, ON THE BASIS OF THEIR DISBELIEF IN YAHWEH.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Exodus 22:21
Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him...

Exodus 23:9
Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger...

Leviticus 19:33
And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself...

n.b.
.....and thou shalt love him as thyself

Leviticus 25:47-49
[these verses clearly speak of [and reveal that it was entirely 'lawful'] for Hebrews [themselves] to become bond servants [slaves], to prosperous strangers living among the Hebrews.]

Deuteronomy 1:16
And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

Deuteronomy 10:17-19
For the LORD your God... loveth the stranger, ...Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 24:17
Thou shalt not pervert the judgment of the stranger, nor of the fatherless; nor take a widow's raiment to pledge:
18 But thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt, and the LORD thy God redeemed thee thence: therefore I command thee to do this thing.

Deuteronomy 27:19
Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger...

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 7:04pm

Yadda wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 6:20pm:

"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98

"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008

Yadda did it ever occur to you that both these verses are referring to the judgment these transgressors will receive in the afterlife, and not giving a free license for man to kill each other?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 7:48pm

Quote:

Yadda did it ever occur to you that both these verses are referring to the judgment these transgressors will receive in the afterlife, and not giving a free license for man to kill each other?

Islam gives far more explicit licences for killing.

Quote:

I believe one of them has already given an explanation - that it is an historical account and not meant to be an example to be followed, by any of the Abrahamic religions (with the exception of Islam, of course). It is not reasonable to project your inability to understand this onto others.

Quote:

and thereby reject it as part of christian doctrine

It is obviously not part of Christian doctrine.

Quote:

I have asked Yadda specifically if he believed the author who stated "spare none who breathe" might have misheard/misunderstood God's command - but not surprisingly he doesn't. Pete ran his usual "isn't it wonderful those babies were hacked to death and received God's mercy" line just a couple of posts up from this.

Yet I expect both of them would reject the claim that their religion holds this example as one to be followed (at least one has already pointed this out to you in this thread), rather than one to consign to history. Of course, you would have to actually ask them their opinion to find that out.

Quote:

No, and before you construct another strawman, here's a quick quiz for you:

That's good, because I thought I was going to have to resort to common sense again, and I remember how poorly that went down last time.

Quote:

1. Of the three Abrahamic religions, which ones believe in the permissibility of a "just war"?

A = all three.

I don't think Christian doctrine would say anything at all on the subject. Again, this is Islam justifying itself by redefining what other religions are.

Quote:

Read into that what you will, but I merely point out these two facts to counter your claim that christianity and judaism reject that sort of aggressive state-sponsored violence,

They do reject it. Neither religion promotes warmongering the way Islam does. There is a huge gulf between them. One merely has to compare the examples set by Jesus vs Muhammed to see this for the case of Christianity, and it is nothing but transparently misleading Islamic spin to claim otherwise.

Quote:

While christianity was strongly pacifist in its formative years, the "revival" of state-sanctioned war happened centuries before Muhammad's time. Emperor Constantine in the early 300s stated that to forbid "the state the right to go to war was to condemn it to extinction". Christians have been flat out coming up with doctrinal justifications for war ever since.

Yes, it is hard work to find doctrinal justifications in Christianity. It is easy in Islam, because that is what Muhammed did. He raped and pillaged. This is no more absurd than clamining that the justifications used by the 9/11 terrorists are reflective of Islam as a whole. Are you suggesting that after the "formative" years Christianity changed?

Quote:

You base this entirely on what you (mistakenly) think you know about Muhammad's activities, not what Islam actually teaches

Muhammed raped and slaughtered his way across Arabia. There is no other way you can spin this and keep a straight face.

Quote:

There is no doctrine of rape and pillage and aggressive war anywhere in Islam's holy book

Yes there is. Islam directly sanctions both rape and pillage.

Quote:

thats the point. Quite the opposite - the Quran strictly forbids any warfare that is not defensive

Crap. Muhammed and his successors lead many overtly aggressive wars. All it took was for Muhammed to have a dream that someone was going to get him, and the rape and pillage started all over again. Muslims claim this is defence, but you have to believe it before it exists. Any rational analysis defines it as aggression.

Quote:

and commands restraint in the conduct of warfare.

Islam commands the slaughtering of POWs. Islam commands the wholesale capture and rape of women. Islam commands the wholesale theft of land and property. Islam commands forced mass migrations. Islam commands ethnic cleansing. Only a Muslim could attempt to spin this as restraint and keep a straight face. Even by contemporary 7th century Arabian standards Muhammed set the bar very low. His success is not attributable to taking some kind of moral high ground, but by being more irrational, hostile and murderous than everyone else. He is far closer to Hitler than Jesus.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 9:36pm

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 7:48pm:

You misunderstand. By "not reject" I mean they accept the OT version that it was an act specifically sanctioned by God as a moral thing to do. It doesn't mean its an example to be followed. Read into that what you will, but its something that will not be found in the Quran.

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 7:48pm:

It is obviously not part of Christian doctrine.

The Bible is Christian doctrine - which includes both testaments.

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 7:48pm:

Are you suggesting that after the "formative" years Christianity changed?

Of course it did. Just as islam changed after its formative years.

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 7:48pm:

Muhammed raped and slaughtered his way across Arabia. There is no other way you can spin this and keep a straight face.

And as usual we come to this conclusion by using the FD arguments of "taking an honest guess" and "deferring to 'common sense'" - not actual historical facts.

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 7:48pm:

Quote:
There is no doctrine of rape and pillage and aggressive war anywhere in Islam's holy book

Yes there is. Islam directly sanctions both rape and pillage.

Please quote this islamic doctrine of rape, pillage and aggressive war. Specific chapter and verse please.

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 7:48pm:

Islam commands the slaughtering of POWs.

Please quote Islamic text commanding the slaughtering of POWs. Specific chapter and verse please.

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 7:48pm:

Islam commands blah blah blah

laughable. Quote text, chapter and verse for all those alleged commands.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 10:30pm

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 7:48pm:

that it is an historical account and not meant to be an example to be followed

Actually this is specifically a commandment for the Israelistes from God

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 10:34pm

Quote:

True. It will not be found in the New Testament either. It is in the old testament.

Except of course all the rulings of his own that Muhammed abrogated - unfortunately rape and pillage was not one of them.

Quote:

The Bible is Christian doctrine - which includes both testaments.

Perhaps you should leave Christianity to Christians to define. It is pretty obvious to anyone with the faintest familiarity with Christianity that the central message of Christianity rejects these things. It is the diametric opposite of Islam.

Quote:

Of course it did. Just as islam changed after its formative years.

Can you explain how Islam changed? Do you mean after Muhammed's death?

Quote:

And as usual we come to this conclusion by using the FD arguments of "taking an honest guess" and "deferring to 'common sense'" - not actual historical facts.

It is historical fact. Muhammed raped and pillaged his way across Arabia.

Quote:

Please quote this islamic doctrine of rape, pillage and aggressive war. Specific chapter and verse please.

We have been over it before. You claimed at the time to be unaware that Muhammed had sex with his own sex slaves. The capture of property through war under Islamic law is common knowledge. There are plenty of accounts of Muhammed attacking other communities with zero or minimal provocation. Do you perhaps think that refusing to acknowledge Muhammed's divine role counts as an aggressive act that justifies Muhammed going on the rampage?

Quote:

Please quote Islamic text commanding the slaughtering of POWs.

The one where Muhammed was instructed to slaughter POWs. Do I really need to quote it? Is Muhammed's example merely a historical anecdote of behaviour and reasoning that should be rejected by Muslims?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 11:29pm

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 10:34pm:

Quote:
Please quote this islamic doctrine of rape, pillage and aggressive war. Specific chapter and verse please.

We have been over it before.

No, really we haven't. Once again, please quote the islamic texts that "SANCTION" rape and pillage.

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 10:34pm:

For God's sake, I know you're not that stupid FD.

Once again, where is the islamic "COMMAND" (your word) to slaughter POWs.

The specific actions of Muhammad as head of a particular state in a particular place and time are not "commands" for muslims to do the same.

The Quran itself orders prisoners to be either freed or ransomed, and until either of these can be achieved, to be well fed and treated humanely. So thats how retarded your claim is.

And while you're at it, feel free to quote the islamic text (chapter and verse) that "commands" (your word, again) all that other crap you mentioned.

Or you can be a man and admit you are completely full of sh*t

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Yadda on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 12:23am

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 10:34pm:

Is Muhammed's example merely a historical anecdote of behaviour and reasoning that should be rejected by Muslims?

No.

Allah stated that Mohammed's life and his conduct, was an example, that should be imitated by all moslems.

"Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah. "
Koran 33.21

Google;
muslims commanded, imitate muhammad

A small sampler from the sunna of Mohammed....

"...the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

"The Prophet said, "Nobody who dies and finds good from Allah (in the Hereafter) would wish to come back to this world even if he were given the whole world and whatever is in it, except the martyr who, on seeing the superiority of martyrdom, would like to come back to the world and get killed again (in Allah's Cause)." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.053

"A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause." "
hadith/bukhari #004.052.065
hadith/bukhari #004.052.080i

"Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." "
hadith/bukhari #001.002.025

"The people of (the tribe of) Quraiza agreed upon to accept the verdict of Sa'd. The Prophet sent for him (Sa'd) and he came. The Prophet said (to those people), "Get up for your chief or the best among you!" Sa'd sat beside the Prophet and the Prophet said (to him), "These people have agreed to accept your verdict." Sa'd said, "So I give my judgment that their warriors should be killed and their women and children should be taken as captives." The Prophet said, "You have judged according to the King's (Allah's) judgment."
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #008.074.278

ISLAMIC LAW....
"Ibn 'Umar related that the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be peace, said, "I have been ordered to kill the people until they testify that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer and pay the zakah. If they do that, their blood and wealth are protected from me save by the rights of Islam. Their reckoning will be with Allah." (Related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.) "
fiqhussunnah/fus1_06

Then there is the account in the sunna, of the abduction and rape of those 'excellent Arab women', that [married] Mohammed and his [married] companions, engaged in unlawful fornication with - BECAUSE THEY WERE MISSING THEIR WIVES, according to the Hadith.

And even though Mohammed and his companions were known to be already married, this fornication/rape was NOT adultery or unlawful fornication, according to Allah [even though Mohammed and his companions stated in the Hadith account, that they [Mohammed and his companions] intended to sell the women back to their [the women's] menfolk.].

Google;
"and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them", muhammad

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 1:14am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 11:29pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 10:34pm:

Quote:
Please quote this islamic doctrine of rape, pillage and aggressive war. Specific chapter and verse please.

We have been over it before.

No, really we haven't. Once again, please quote the islamic texts that "SANCTION" rape and pillage.

Now I am going to stick your nose in this repeatedly, until you admit to the truth, as I've had just about enough Islamic dissimulation. For pity's sake, the Quran has a whole chapter titled: "Spoils of War Booty" in which Muhammad's Muhammad-serving alter-ego "Allah" awards Muhammad 1/5 of all of the property stolen from others through imperialistic conquest. Not so unlike a Mafia Don.
http://www.brotherpete.com/banu_qurayza_massacre.htm
Here's an example in practice:

Qur'an 33:26 "Allah took down the People of the Scripture Book. He cast terror into their hearts. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, giving you a land which you had not traversed before. And Allah has power over all things."

Of course it is obvious that it was Satan and his people, that took down Yahweh's "People of the Scripture Book", and beheaded the innocent, peaceful, faithful Banu Qurayza Jewish farm boys, and their dads and grandpas - who never struck a blow - while raping and sexually enslaving their little sisters, moms and grandmothers, and stealing the fruit of their labor of generations.
Since Muhammad and his boys didn't work for a living they had to steal the property of others to support themselves. Just like the Mafia, while even sharing the same penalty for leaving the cult - death.

Ishaq:475.....When he called for violent efforts we made them. The Prophet's command is obeyed for he is truly believed. He will give us victory, glory, and a life of ease.

Now this is important for you to begin your spiritual healing gand. For you to deny that Muhammad and his boys raped those female prisoners, would require your believing that those little girls and women, would have DESIRED to have sex with the very men responsible for beheading their innocent peaceful faithful little brothers, sons, husbands, fathers and grandfathers.

Tabari VIII:35/Ishaq:464 He sent for the Jewish men and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in batches. They numbered 800 to 900 boys and men."

rape
1. The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse.
2. The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction.

Sahih Muslim: "It is permissible to have sexual intercourse with a captive woman after she is purified (of menses or delivery) in case she has a husband, her marriage is abrogated after she becomes captive.

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: that while he was sitting with Allah's Apostle he said, "O Allah's Apostle! We get female captives as our share of booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interrupt us?" The Prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence. (Bukhari Book #34, Hadith #432)

Narrated Ibn Muhairiz: I entered the Mosque and saw Abu Said Al-Khudri and sat beside him and asked him about Al-Azl (i.e. coitus interruptus). Abu Said said, "We went out with Allah's Apostle for the Ghazwa of Banu Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus. So when we intended to do coitus interrupt us, we said, 'How can we do coitus interruptus before asking Allah's Apostle who is present among us?" We asked (him) about it and he said, 'It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul (till the Day of Resurrection) is predestined to exist, it will exist." (Book #59, Hadith #459)

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them. So we asked Allah's Apostle about it and he said, "Do you really do that?" repeating the question thrice, "There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection." (Book #62, Hadith #137)

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: That while he was sitting with the Prophet a man from the Ansar came and said, "O Allah's Apostle! We get slave girls from the war captives and we love property; what do you think about coitus interruptus?" Allah's Apostle said, "Do you do that? It is better for you not to do it, for there is no soul which Allah has ordained to come into existence but will be created." (Book #77, Hadith #600)

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: That during the battle with Bani Al-Mustaliq they (Muslims) captured some females and intended to have sexual relation with them without impregnating them. So they asked the Prophet about coitus interrupt us. The Prophet said, "It is better that you should not do it, for Allah has written whom He is going to create till the Day of Resurrection." Qaza'a said, "I heard Abu Sa'id saying that the Prophet said, 'No soul is ordained to be created but Allah will create it." (Book #93, Hadith #506)

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 1:37am

Not only did Muhammad and his reprobate crew of murderous cutthroat rapist thieves take down Yahweh's innocent, peaceful, faithful people, but Muhammad didn't even pretend it was ordained by another one of his self-serving "revelations", but he instead deferred to his buddy Sa'd to pass judgment on those innocents:

Bukhari:V5B59N448 "They then surrendered to the Prophet's judgment but he directed them to Sa'd to give the verdict. Sad said, 'I give my judgment that their men should be killed, their women and children should be taken as captives, and their properties distributed.'"

So what we in fact find in Muhammad's massacre of the Banu Qurayza is the EXACT OPPOSITE, of the specific historical event of when Yahweh ordered His faithful people of His book, to take down Satan's Canaanites who practiced sodomy, bestiality, incest, pedophilia, ritualistic prostitution and even sacrifice of children to idols - so that His faithful people wouldn't be poisoned by the Canaanites either spiritually or physically.

After I get an admission from you that Muhammad and his boys were rapist thieves, we will get into the lies you told in the post at this link:
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1390714478/52#52

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:08am

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 1:14am:

beheaded the innocent, peaceful, faithful Banu Qurayza Jewish farm boys, and their dads and grandpas - who never struck a blow

;D ;D

Sometimes it is worthwhile reading your posts Pete - for pure entertainment value.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:33am

Your mental gymnastics really are quite astounding Pete. You should be in the ice skating in the upcoming olympics.

To someone have a religion that says "you shall not murder" and simultaneously commending the murder of innocent babies with justification was hard I admit, but now you are adding to your repertoire, condemning Muslims for the same actions you have previously advocated and justified through your own faith.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:46am

Quote:

No, really we haven't. Once again, please quote the islamic texts that "SANCTION" rape and pillage.

I usually ask Muslims to do this. They are happy enough to explain that it is their right to have sex with sex slaves that they capture in battle, and that there is no punishment for rape in the context of either marriage or sexual slavery.

Quote:

Once again, where is the islamic "COMMAND" (your word) to slaughter POWs.

I think it was the angel Gaybriel who told him to do it. I am sure you are familiar with it.

Quote:

The specific actions of Muhammad as head of a particular state in a particular place and time are not "commands" for muslims to do the same.

Are they a righteous example for Muslims to follow? Or just another barbaric 7th century Arab warmonger whose deeds are better left in the past? This seems to be the key point here, and one that you refuse to even acknowledge. You bring up old testament Jewish Kings, and even Roman Emperors, as supposed examples of Christian doctrine, yet you backpedal when it comes to the examples set by Muhammed himself. Why? Are you embarrassed about it?

Quote:

The Quran itself orders prisoners to be either freed or ransomed

Other Muslims I have discussed this with added enslaved and slaughtered to the list. Do you think that Muhammed violated Islamic law? Is Muhammed generally considered to be above the law? Is that why he got the Jews to do it for him? Perhaps he thought of himself as Pontious Pilate for a brief moment.

Quote:

and until either of these can be achieved, to be well fed and treated humanely. So thats how retarded your claim is.

It is the claim of Muhammed himself and many Muslims. BTW, you have to feed your slaves or they won't get any work done. No point beating a dead horse. Is the entire 1400 year history of the Islamic slave trade some kind of misunderstanding?

Quote:

And while you're at it, feel free to quote the islamic text (chapter and verse) that "commands" (your word, again) all that other crap you mentioned.

I am no Islamic scholar. Nor do I see it as my role to interpret these texts for Muslims, they way you and other Muslims seem to enjoy doing for Christians and Jews (another example set by Muhammed). I do my best to keep up with what the Muslims say here. Many of the past discussions include the relevant Islamic texts. The wiki is full of links. You are welcome to challenge any of the points made.

Quote:

Sometimes it is worthwhile reading your posts Pete - for pure entertainment value.

Yet what he says is true. Muhammed and his men killed all the adult men and raped the women, despite this tribe actually helping them in their war effort. It is a classic example of collective punishment of the most brutal kind - another nasty example Muhammed set for Muslims.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 10:04am

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:46am:

They are wrong. And no muslim that you have ever talked to claims that rape is sanctioned. The one guy you used to quote argued at length the exact opposite.

But right now I'm asking *YOU* to back up *YOUR* claim that rape and pillage is "sanctioned" in islam.

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:46am:

I think it was the angel Gaybriel who told him to do it. I am sure you are familiar with it.

Archangel Gabriel told him to subdue the powerful tribe who had just betrayed him by treating with the guys who were laying siege to Medina to open up a second front against Muhammad. Thus they were understandably seen as an existential threat to the struggling islamic nation. There was no divine command - whether it was by God or via the Achangel - to put the prisoners to death. Feel free to retract that stupid statement.

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:46am:

I refuse to acknowledge that every decision taken by Muhammad specific to him being head of a small state in 7th century Arabia is a specific "command" for muslims in all time and place to follow. Its just absurd. No muslim with even half a brain would consider for one moment that the actions taken against the Banu Qurayza is a blanket "command" to go forth and wage war, capture prisoners and execute them. It is especially retarded given the clear commands in the Quran to treat prisoners humanely and to have the freed.

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:46am:

You bring up old testament Jewish Kings

Jewish prophets.

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:46am:

yet you backpedal when it comes to the examples set by Muhammed himself.

No I don't. I have no problem with executing traitors who conspired to anhialate the muslim nation. I think thats a great example to follow. I just refuse to acknowledge this example as a blanket "command" for all muslims to kill all POWs taken in war - when the Quran commands the exact opposite. How unreasonable of me. ::)

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:46am:

Why? Are you embarrassed about it?

I am embarassed by your hillarious leaps in logic.

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:46am:

Do you think that Muhammed violated Islamic law? Is Muhammed generally considered to be above the law?

He did not execute POWs, he executed traitors amongst his own people who proved their willingness to work towards bringing down the Islamic nation from the inside.

Any actual POWs Muhammad took he had them freed or ransomed, or often they chose to convert to islam and join Muhammad.

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:46am:

Is that why he got the Jews to do it for him?

Jews did what for him now? Is this you once again not having a clue about the actual historical events?

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:46am:

It is the claim of Muhammed himself and many Muslims.

::) Humour me FD - give me a sample of "many muslims" saying that muslims are "commanded" to execute POWs. I dare you.

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:46am:

I am no Islamic scholar. Nor do I see it as my role to interpret these texts for Muslims

You don't say. So now that we are clear that you were speaking through your arse when you stated that muslims are "commanded" to execute POWs, and in the spirit of it "not being your role to interpret these texts", you can trust me, and any muslim scholar or opinion you might care to look up, that not only are muslims not commanded to execute POWs, but doing so is a great sin.

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:46am:

Yet what he says is true. Muhammed and his men killed all the adult men and raped the women, despite this tribe actually helping them in their war effort.

...and conspiring with their enemy who were at the time laying siege to their city, and conducting actual sneak attacks against the muslims.

Yah, poor little farm boys and their grand-pa pa's.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 11:59am

Quote:

They are wrong. And no muslim that you have ever talked to claims that rape is sanctioned. The one guy you used to quote argued at length the exact opposite.

Obviously they try to put a positive spin on it, just as you do. For example, it is not rape because Allah has already given his consent, and the consent of the woman involved is inconsequential. But it is still rape, sanctioned by Islam, and demonstrated by Muhammed.

Quote:

Is it a righteous example for Muslims to follow? Or just another barbaric 7th century Arab warmonger whose deeds are better left in the past?

Quote:

I refuse to acknowledge that every decision taken by Muhammad specific to him being head of a small state in 7th century Arabia is a specific "command" for muslims in all time and place to follow.

Is it a righteous example for Muslims to follow? Or just another barbaric 7th century Arab warmonger whose deeds are better left in the past?

Quote:

Its just absurd. No muslim with even half a brain would consider for one moment that the actions taken against the Banu Qurayza is a blanket "command" to go forth and wage war, capture prisoners and execute them.

Of course. They have options. They can enslave them. They can rape them. They can sell them. They can impose a forced mass migration. They can convert them. They can steal everything they own. They can confiscate the land, but put the people back to work on it and charge them a 50% tax on everything they produce. Whatever is in the interests of spreading the empire, and hence Islam.

Quote:

No I don't. I have no problem with executing traitors who conspired to anhialate the muslim nation.

And their entire extended family? So you do support collective punishment and the execution of POW's, but like all other Muslims, you try to spin it into something else?

Quote:

I think thats a great example to follow.

Executing 800 people in one day, and taking their wives as sex slaves? Nice. And here I was thinking you were some kind of progressive Muslim.

Quote:

He did not execute POWs, he executed traitors amongst his own people who proved their willingness to work towards bringing down the Islamic nation from the inside.

Obviously you would spin it that way. You are a Muslim. But the reality is that they were prisoners of war.

Quote:

Jews did what for him now? Is this you once again not having a clue about the actual historical events?

Muhammed got Jews to pass the judgement and carry out the actual executions. It helped prevent another backlash among the Jews. It's a bit like Pontious Pilate, except that Muhammed played the role of both raving lunatic and pliant bureaucrat.

Quote:

...and conspiring with their enemy who were at the time laying siege to their city, and conducting actual sneak attacks against the muslims.

There is direct evidence that they supported Muhammed. There is no genuine evidence that they attacked Muhammed.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 12:06pm

A truly heroic example of misrepresentation Freediver

It must get so tiring leaping to all those comclusions

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 12:49pm

Stratos wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 12:06pm:

A truly heroic example of misrepresentation Freediver

It must get so tiring leaping to all those comclusions

How would you interpret Islamic law's stance on the rape of wives and sex slaves?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 1:08pm

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 12:49pm:

How would you interpret Islamic law's stance on the rape of wives and sex slaves?

Whats that got to do with it?

You take on example from someone and just take it to it's most extreme conclusion you can possibly think of in spite of what has actually been said.

Oh gandalf supports capital punishment. Oh well then he must also advocate killing extended families and rape.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by moses on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 1:39pm

gandalf wrote

Quote:

The Bible is Christian doctrine - which includes both testaments.

gandalf why do you ignore the New Testament teachings which are Christian doctrine?

Why do you try and equate the ancient Mosaic / Judaic Law with Christian Doctrine?

Why the deceit gandalf?

once again I quote:

Quote:

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached , and every man presseth into it.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Now it is very clear that Christians were told to divest themselves of the Jewish Covenant / laws. Christians live under a New Covenant with God.

gandalf wrote:

Quote:

No, really we haven't. Once again, please quote the islamic texts that "SANCTION" rape and pillage.

I refer you to:

Quote:

Chapter (24) sūrat l-nūr (The Light)
And let those who cannot find a match keep chaste till Allah give them independence by His grace. And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), write it for them if ye are aware of aught of good in them, and bestow upon them of the wealth of Allah which He hath bestowed upon you. Force not your slave-girls to whoredom that ye may seek enjoyment of the life of the world, if they would preserve their chastity. And if one force them, then after their compulsion, lo! Allah will be Forgiving, Merciful.

This quiet clearly sanctions muslims forcing girls into prostitution / rape

Again refer to:

Quote:

Al-Anfal 8:41:
And know that whatever of war-booty that you may gain, verily one-fifth (1/5th) of it is assigned to Allâh, and to the Messenger, and to the near relatives [of the Messenger (Muhammad SAW)], (and also) the orphans, Al-Masâkin (the poor) and the wayfarer, if you have believed in Allâh and in that which We sent down to Our slave (Muhammad SAW) on the Day of criterion (between right and wrong), the Day when the two forces met (the battle of Badr) - And Allâh is Able to do all things.

Al-Ahzab 33:27:
And He caused you to inherit their lands, and their houses, and their riches, and a land which you had not trodden (before). And Allâh is Able to do all things.

Both clearly sanction pillage. You can't get booty if you stay at home peacefully, you have to be the aggressor and invade to collect your spoils of war, in the land you have not trodden before

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 2:48pm

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 11:59am:

lol not even close.

The man who passed judgment was Sa'd ibn Mua'dh, a prominent member of the Aws tribe. The Aws were not jewish. Please get a clue about the actual facts before spinning some pathetic crap about Pontius Pilate or whatever.

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 11:59am:

There is direct evidence that they supported Muhammed.

Yes, well after that last gem about who passed judgment on the Qurayza, you'll forgive me if I treat your claims about "evidence" and facts with the contempt that it deserves.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 3:01pm

moses wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 1:39pm:

gandalf why do you ignore the New Testament teachings which are Christian doctrine?

Why do you try and equate the ancient Mosaic / Judaic Law with Christian Doctrine?

I really tried to discuss this with Yadda. I asked him if the NT abrogates the OT in christian doctrine - he is adamant that it doesn't. I also questioned whether the "spare none who breathe" quote could have been a reporting error - since I understand (and correct me if I'm wrong) that the bible is not considered as the direct word of God - unlike how muslims consider the Quran. But he seemed to dismiss that idea as well.

So what are we left with? Help me understand Moses - how can we get around the fact that God - as in the Christian God - directly ordered his people to kill every man, woman and child in Canaan? Doesn't sound very "christian" to me. I don't see why its so hard for christians to say that there was some chinese whisper effect between the communication from God to Joshua down through the Israelites until it eventually got to the person who wrote that passage of the OT. And the fact that the Israelites didn't even come close to fulfilling that order lends credence to the view that its because they weren't ordered to slaughter an entire population in the first place. Even apart from the moral aspect, there is no strategic value whatsoever in killing children when you can adopt them into your society and bring them up as God-fearing Israelites.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by moses on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 4:03pm

gandalf wrote:

Quote:

I reiterate gandalf:

Quote:

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached , and every man presseth into it.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

It seems extremely clear to me that Christians were told to divest themselves of the Jewish laws.

Christians live under a New Covenant with God.

The Bible consists of two Testaments.

The Old Testament is a record of the covenant solely between God and the Jews.

The New Testament is a record of the gospel depicting the New Covenant between God and all mankind who will receive it.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 4:09pm

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:02pm

Quote:

Whats that got to do with it?

That's what we were discussing. If you would like to comment on something specific, go ahead.

Quote:

You take on example from someone and just take it to it's most extreme conclusion you can possibly think of in spite of what has actually been said.

Not in spite of, because of. And I give them every opportunity to discredit my interpretation. I encourage them to.

Quote:

Oh gandalf supports capital punishment. Oh well then he must also advocate killing extended families and rape.

Perhaps you should let Gandalf speak for himself. The example he was referring to supporting involved the execution of every adult male in a tribe of Jews after defeating them in battle - roughly 800 men. Muhammed himself took one of the wives as his sex slave.

Quote:

The man who passed judgment was Sa'd ibn Mua'dh, a prominent member of the Aws tribe. The Aws were not jewish. Please get a clue about the actual facts before spinning some pathetic crap about Pontius Pilate or whatever.

Fair enough. Muhammed got the Aws (their previous allies) to pass the judgement and made a lot of them carry out the executions, to prevent a backlash among the Aws. A bit like Pontious Pilate, except that Muhammed played both the role of raving lunatic and pliant bureaucrat.

Is that more politically correct?

Quote:

Even apart from the moral aspect, there is no strategic value whatsoever in killing children when you can adopt them into your society and bring them up as God-fearing Israelites.

You may not have noticed gandalf, given how busy you are projecting Islamic standards onto everyone, but the Jews are not real keen on spreading Judaism by kidnapping non-Jewish children. They are pretty much the opposite of Islam in this regard.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:42pm

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:02pm:

Perhaps, but its still not factually correct.

The Quraysa themselves requested the Aws judge them according to jewish law.

I will give it to you though - you have some spunk getting repeatedly slapped down after exposing your outrageous lies to be built purely on demonstrably incorrect facts, and then still be able to come up swinging. I would have thought most people would show some humility and partake in some humble reflection after such humiliations.

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:02pm:

You may not have noticed gandalf, given how busy you are projecting Islamic standards onto everyone, but the Jews are not real keen on spreading Judaism by kidnapping non-Jewish children.

Um yeah... presumably putting these kids to the sword is the more humane approach. :P

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Baronvonrort on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:53pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 2:48pm:

So what was the bodycount for muslims from the Banu Qurayza's so called treachery, was it zip zero zilch?

It was Mohammad who had the final word on whether the 900 jewish men had their heads chopped off along with enslaving the women and children and stealing the wealth of the jews.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Baronvonrort on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:55pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:42pm:

The Quraysa themselves requested the Aws judge them according to jewish law.

Can you cite any jewish sources for this or were they exterminated and unable to write about it?

How long after the event were the Islamic sources published?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Baronvonrort on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 9:04pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 10:04am:

Archangel Gabriel told him to subdue the powerful tribe who had just betrayed him by treating with the guys who were laying siege to Medina to open up a second front against Muhammad.

I refuse to acknowledge that every decision taken by Muhammad specific to him being head of a small state in 7th century Arabia is a specific "command" for muslims in all time and place to follow.

No I don't. I have no problem with executing traitors who conspired to anhialate the muslim nation.

So some imaginary person in the sky told Mo to attack the jews, how many muslims were killed in this second front was it zip zero zilch?

What does 33/21 say Gandalf,does it say to follow Mo the pedo's example,did you agree with it in another thread?
www.quran.com/33/21

So you do not have a problem with executing people for apostasy,when did that change or were you bullshitting before?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 9:28pm

You are absolutely correct Baron - no (known) muslims were killed in the Qurayza's attempts to bring down the islamic state from the inside.

I guess that makes it perfectly alright then.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 10:11pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 8:08am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 1:14am:

beheaded the innocent, peaceful, faithful Banu Qurayza Jewish farm boys, and their dads and grandpas - who never struck a blow

;D ;D

Sometimes it is worthwhile reading your posts Pete - for pure entertainment value.

You had requested:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 11:29pm:

Once again, please quote the islamic texts that "SANCTION" rape and pillage.

I gave you unequivocal texts regarding the mass murder, rape, coitus interruptus and thievery of Muhammad and his fellow cutthroats. The man whose behavior his followers are expected imitate and emulate.

Bukhari B78 #627 Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet said, "O followers of Muhammad!"

So your reply to my post is that you find it entertaining that you follow an illiterate 7th century SW Arabian desert dwelling moral reprobate, who was responsible for the beheading of those innocent, peaceful, faithful Jewish farm boys and their dads and grandpas, and the rape of their little sisters, moms and grandmothers, and the theft of their property?
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm#banu_qurayza

Tabari VIII:38 "The Messenger of Allah commanded that all of the Jewish men and boys who had reached puberty should be beheaded. Then the Prophet divided the wealth, wives, and children of the Banu Qurayza Jews among the Muslims."

Abu Dawud 38:4390 Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi: I was among the captives of Banu Qurayza. They (the Companions) examined us, and those who had begun to grow hair (pubes) were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair.

Tabari VIII:35/Ishaq:464 "The Jews were made to come down, and Allah's Messenger imprisoned them. Then the Prophet went out into the marketplace of Medina (it is still its marketplace today), and he had trenches dug in it. He sent for the Jewish men and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in batches. They numbered 800 to 900 boys and men."

You didn't answer the question gandalf. Did the Muhammadans rape the women of the Banu Quraiza, or do you believe those girls and women desired to have sex with the men responsible for beheading their little sons, husbands, brothers, fathers and grandfathers, and rape of their little daughters, sisters and mothers?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 10:15pm

Quote:

I will give it to you though - you have some spunk getting repeatedly slapped down after exposing your outrageous lies to be built purely on demonstrably incorrect facts, and then still be able to come up swinging.

Oh the shame. I got an ancient Arab tribe confused with a Jewish one. ::)

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 9:28pm:

You are absolutely correct Baron - no (known) muslims were killed in the Qurayza's attempts to bring down the islamic state from the inside.

I guess that makes it perfectly alright then.

There is a big difference between "perfectly alright" and "I kill you. I kill you all. And ride off on your women."

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 10:44pm

freediver wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 10:15pm:

Quote:

Oh the shame. I got an ancient Arab tribe confused with a Jewish one. ::)

He apparently can't see how ridiculously transparent it is of him to have focused on that to run and hide from the truth. Because it is impossible for a Muslim to deny that Muhammad and his boys were mass-murdering, rapist thieves. But I promised I would hold his feet to the fire until he admitted to this, and I intend to.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 3:04am

Now answer the question gandalf:
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1390714478/88#88

Did the Muhammadans rape the women of the Banu Quraiza, or do you believe those girls and women desired to have sex with the men responsible for beheading their little sons, husbands, brothers, fathers and grandfathers, and the rape of their little daughters, sisters, mothers and grandmothers?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 7:51am

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 10:44pm:

Oh the shame. I got an ancient Arab tribe confused with a Jewish one.

You attempted to use it to build an entire narrative around Muhammad the deceiver - who used the jews in a sneaky game of manipulation to keep them in check, and some crap about washing his hands of the crime ala Pontius Pilate.

When that was debunked, you said it doesn't matter, he did the same thing to the Aws. Ignorant, of course, to the fact that the Aws were among the first arab tribe to join Muhammad, and were probably his most loyal followers - after the emigrants.

The actual facts completely dismantle your smear: it was the Qurayza themselves who appealed to Muhammad to have the Aws judge them as a condition of surrender, and Muhammad made them pledge to accept the Aws verdict. Thus there was 1. no deceptive manipulation to keep anyone under control by Muhammad and 2. no cowardly "Pontius Pilate" washing his hands of the crime. Point two you've been banging on about ever since I've been here, so its worth getting that one off our chests.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 8:28am

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 7:51am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 10:44pm:

Oh the shame. I got an ancient Arab tribe confused with a Jewish one.

You falsely attributed FDs words in the above quote to me.
Click on the link to it and you'll see what I said to FD about you was:

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 1^st, 2014 at 10:44pm:

Which opinion you again confirmed by dithering on with:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 7:51am:

Enough of the obfuscation and dissimulation gand. I realize Muhammadans have been blinded to the desires of women by THE false prophet Muhammad, as prophesied in scripture, but try answering the question this time. This question is about those women:

Did the Muhammadans RAPE the women of the Banu Qurayza, or do you believe those girls and women DESIRED to have sex with the men, responsible for beheading their sons, husbands, brothers, fathers and grandfathers, and the rape of their little daughters, sisters, mothers and grandmothers?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 9:08am

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 8:28am:

You falsely attributed FDs words in the above quote to me.

You are right, please accept my apologies.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 9:10am

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 9:08am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 8:28am:

You falsely attributed FDs words in the above quote to me.

You are right, please accept my apologies.

No problem Gand. I figured it was an accident. I just wanted you to know before things got more confused.
Could you take a crack at the question now?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 9:56am

Quote:

Did the Muhammadans rape the women of the Banu Quraiza, or do you believe those girls and women desired to have sex with the men responsible for beheading their little sons, husbands, brothers, fathers and grandfathers, and the rape of their little daughters, sisters, mothers and grandmothers?

Muhammed took one of the good looking wives as a sex slave. Until recently Gandalf was insisting it is against Islamic law to have sex with your sex slave. According to Gandalf, they fell madly in love, while the blood was still flowing, as did all the other women of the tribe that the Muslims wanted to take.

Quote:

The fact that it was a tribe of Arabs rather than Jews does not actually change that narrative Gandalf.

Quote:

When that was debunked, you said it doesn't matter, he did the same thing to the Aws.

Yes Gandalf. His actions were the same. The racial identity of the people he did it to is hardly critical. Do you think it makes his actions somehow more moral? Would it be worse if the Aws were Jews?

Quote:

The actual facts completely dismantle your smear: it was the Qurayza themselves who appealed to Muhammad to have the Aws judge them as a condition of surrender, and Muhammad made them pledge to accept the Aws verdict.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza

Muhammad then suggested to bring the case before an arbitrator chosen from the Aws, to which both the Aws and the Qurayza agreed.

Quote:

Thus there was 1. no deceptive manipulation to keep anyone under control by Muhammad

Sa'd dismissed the pleas of the Aws, according to Watt because being close to death and concerned with his afterlife, he put what he considered "his duty to God and the Muslim community" before tribal allegiance.[11] Tariq Ramadan argues that Muhammad deviated from his earlier, more lenient treatment of prisoners as this was seen "as sign of weakness if not madness",[55] Peterson concurs that the Muslims wanted to deter future treachery by setting an example with severe punishment.[12] Lings reports that Sa'ad feared that if expelled, the Qurayza would join the Nadir in the fight against the Muslims.[16]

Stillman claims that Muhammad chose Sa'd so as not to pronounce the judgment himself, after the precedents he had set with the Banu Qaynuqa and the Banu Nadir: "Sa`d took the hint and condemned the adult males to death and the hapless women and children to slavery." Furthermore, Stillman infers from Abu Lubaba's gesture that Muhammad had decided the fate of the Qurayza even before their surrender.[30]

Quote:

and 2. no cowardly "Pontius Pilate" washing his hands of the crime. Point two you've been banging on about ever since I've been here, so its worth getting that one off our chests.

The ruling clearly went against earlier rulings by Muhammed. It is no coincidence that Muhammed got someone else to pass his most barbaric sentence, and then forced that tribe to carry out the barbarity. Even to this day, Muslims trot out the line that the Jews were judged by their own laws. Convenient eh? Abu even argued that Muhammed was powerless to intervene and could only look on as the locals did what they do.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 11:08am

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 9:56am:

The fact that it was a tribe of Arabs rather than Jews does not actually change that narrative Gandalf.

::) Your narrative is completely changed FD:

Quote:

You were in the midst of constructing an entire narrative based on the false claim that he "got jews to pass the judgment":

It helped prevent another backlash among the Jews. It's a bit like Pontious Pilate

reads: the jews could only be kept in check by brute force and trickery.

I note that you have taken to quoting Watt, well he argues that the action taken against the Qurayza had nothing to do with any underlying anti-jewish agenda, and the fact that the remaining jews did not offer any objections to their treatment is testament that even the jews didn't see it is a jewish issue, but an issue of one tribe's treachery. He also argues that this was not considered a particularly extreme or unusual sentence at that time. Watt's argument, not mine.

So after that is blown out of the water, we move on to FD's next attempt:

Quote:

Muhammed got the Aws (their previous allies) to pass the judgement and made a lot of them carry out the executions, to prevent a backlash among the Aws.

Whats particularly hilarious about this is the quote you use from wikipedia:

Quote:

So to "prevent a backlash amongst the Aws" he went with someone who dismissed the very pleas of the Aws

You have no shame FD, no humility. This is about you making up narratives that are based purely on made up facts, and then when that is debunked, moving on to another blatantly made up narrative. You don't have a shred of credibility, you are just proving yourself to be irrationally obsessed with pushing an islamophobic agenda. Objectivity - the keystone of any intellectual discussion - is anathema to you.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 12:24pm

Quote:

Your narrative is completely changed FD

:

OK. It helped prevent a backlash among the Aws. Completely different eh? I believe I have already made these changes for you.

Quote:

reads: the jews could only be kept in check by brute force and trickery.

That's how Muhammed dealt with anyone who stood in his way. Mostly brute force, but he was happy to use trickery where he could.

Quote:

So to "prevent a backlash amongst the Aws" he went with someone who dismissed the very pleas of the Aws

No Gandalf. He went with someone who rejected the pleas for mercy so that he could kill them all and ride off on the women. To prevent a backlash among the Aws, who used to be allied to the tribe and who plead for mercy on their behalf, he got clan leaders from within the Aws to carry out the executions.

Quote:

You have no shame FD, no humility. This is about you making up narratives that are based purely on made up facts, and then when that is debunked, moving on to another blatantly made up narrative.

It is the same narrative Gandalf. You just replace Jews with Aws. And I did not make it up. It is from the wikipedia article on it. It is a perfectly reasonable explanation for Muhammed's Pontious Pilate style handling of the situation.

Gandalf, you still have not explained why you think replacing Jews with Aws makes Muhammed's behaviour more acceptable.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by moses on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 12:34pm

Stratos wrote:

Quote:

I'd be very interested to hear this conversation between Moses and Pete or Yadda play out. There are other bible passages Moses that seem to indicate that the Old Testament is still relevant, such as in Matthew 5 17-19, which appears to contradict the passages you have provided. That was spoken by Jesus too, and he clearly states that

[quote]
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

[/quote]

As I see it:

Quote:

Matthew5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Matthew5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Matthew5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The law was in force untill it was fulfilled.

Christ fulfilled the law.

From the dictionary fulfilled means:

Adjective: Completed to perfection

Verb: bring to a conclusion; complete successfully

Therefore if Christ fulfilled the law, He completed it to perfection, He completed it successfully.

Seems very clear to me that Christ fulfilled /completed successfully the law.

Therefore if it is completed, it is finished.

A new era of justification by faith in Christ, not Mosaic law began.

As stated in:Luke 16:16 Rom 3:20 Rom 3:28 Gal 2:16 Gal 3:11

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 3:07pm

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 12:24pm:

OK. It helped prevent a backlash among the Aws. Completely different eh?

They were not jewish, this is significant in and of itself. Why you would immediately jump to that conclusion with no knowledge at all of the actual facts speaks volumes about your skewed thought processes. But for years your anti-muslim diatribes have mostly revolved around creating a "holocaust narrative" in your descriptions of muslim-jewish relations and it is literally impossible for you to bring this topic up without resorting to reductio ad Hitlerum. This is presumably the reason why you bring up jews when discussing Muhammad's political career at every possible opportunity - even if it means inventing them out of thin air.

For Watt and most mainstream experts on the subject (who remember you are only to keen to quote when it suits), they are adamant that the issue had nothing to do with any anti-jewish agenda, and everything to do with eliminating clear existential threats to a fledgling nation - ie neutralising the threat of traitors amongst him. No one else sees the need to construct a "big bad monster" narrative around this, because you see FD, these people actually look at the issue and the facts objectively, not childishly resorting to emotional reductio ad Hitlerum arguments.

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 12:24pm:

That's how Muhammed dealt with anyone who stood in his way. Mostly brute force, but he was happy to use trickery where he could.

Yes, because thats totally supported by the known historical facts. :P

Tell me FD, are you familiar with the muslim pilgrimage of 628 - when Muhammad led his men in a state of ihram (ie without arms and forbidden to fight) to perform the pilgrimage in Mecca while they were still at war with the Meccans? This was a clear overture for peace, and he succeeded in concluding the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah as a result. In this treaty Muhammad made huge concessions to the Meccans in the interests of peace - even when its clear the muslim state at that time were militarily in a stronger position.

No brute force, no trickery, just a genuine desire for peace, when he could have simply marched on Mecca and defeated it militarily.

Suggest you read all of Montgomery Watt (not just select quotes where you think it suits) - arguably the preeminent authority on the historical Muhammad, as well as Karen Armstrong, and, well pretty much any of those authors you love to quote from the wiki article. Learn the actual full story, not just little cherry picks that suit your agenda. Because honestly, these little claims you are coming up with are frankly embarassing.

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 12:24pm:

Gandalf, you still have not explained why you think replacing Jews with Aws makes Muhammed's behaviour more acceptable.

What?? Perhaps its better to stick to what I actually say FD.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by moses on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 4:39pm

ALLAH IS 666 - THE ISLAMIC MARK OF BEAST CONNECTION part 2 of 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJaFjvrsNt0&feature=player_detailpage

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 5:27pm

moses wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 4:39pm:

ALLAH IS 666 - THE ISLAMIC MARK OF BEAST CONNECTION part 2 of 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJaFjvrsNt0&feature=player_detailpage

Is there some kind of source or text based version? It makes all these claims, but doesn't say where from

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 9:19pm

moses wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 4:39pm:

ALLAH IS 666 - THE ISLAMIC MARK OF BEAST CONNECTION part 2 of 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJaFjvrsNt0&feature=player_detailpage

Very good regarding the worship of the beast. Also jihad is the pinnacle of worship in Islam, so engaging in the murder, mayhem and misery of Islamic jihad is a way Muhammad's followers worship the "beast" which is defined in scripture as a kingdom - in this case the false prophet Muhammad's Islamic kingdom "beast" as the final foe of Yahweh's people. (ref page 2 of this thread)
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1390714478/16#16

It's such a shame that John Darby styled futurists are distracted by waiting for a final boogieman as a result of unsound pop-eschatology, just as Muslims await Muhammad's boogieman because of Muhammad's false prophesies.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/futurism_dispensationalism.htm

Also waiting for a physical mark, but is a physical mark required for God to sort us out?

Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

The mark, OR the name of the beast - Islam. Many Christians are waiting for this to be fulfilled, but in John's "whole world" it already has been, since John's whole world is virtually completely inhabited by followers of the false prophet Muhammad, busily wiping out the last of the remnant of Yahweh's people:

Strong's: world
New Testament Greek Definition:
3625 oikoumene {oy-kou-men'-ay}
1) the inhabited earth
1a) the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in
distinction from the lands of the barbarians
1b) the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire

The 1290 "days" pins the Dome of the Rock mathematically:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#daniel_1290_days

Regarding the abomination of desolation, the narrator said this is about a man sitting in a temple, but is that what the scriptures say?

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,...

stand - 2476 histemi {his'-tay-mee}
1) to cause or make to stand, to place, put, set
1a2) to place
1b) to make firm, fix establish
1b3) to establish a thing, cause it to stand
2a1a) of the foundation of a building

The abomination of desolation is the blasphemous building, that represents the antichrist "beast" of Islam, that STANDS on the temple mount. With blasphemy written in mosaic all around the eves, and founding verses which read:

"O you People of the Book, overstep not bounds in your religion, and of God speak only the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, is only an apostle of God, and his Word which he conveyed unto Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from him. Believe therefore in God and his apostles, and say not Three. It will be better for you. God is only one God. Far be it from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son."

Built right near where YHWH had His people build His temple.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/abomination_of_desolation.htm

Pure blasphemy:

In what I have come to believe is Satan's language, that came out of the pit of hell, along with the false prophet Muhammad's Islamic empire (The Arabic language did not exist before the Christian era).

The Reformers got it:

Of Revelation chapter 9: John Foxe who authored Foxe’s Book of Martyrs wrote that it is “clearer than light itself” as being a prophecy of the Muslim conquests.

Albert Barnes: “With surprising unanimity, commentators have agreed in regarding this to the empire of the Saracens (Muslims), or to the rise and the progress of the religion and the empire set up by Muhammed.”

W.B. Godbey: “This chapter is a thrilling description of the rise and progress of the Mohammedan wars.”

Of the locusts of Revelation 9: Adam Clarke: “certainly agrees better with the Saracens than with any other people or nation” and “agrees very well with the troops of Mohammed.”

Matthew Henry: “the armies of the Mohamedan empire.”

John Wesley: “All this agrees with the slaughter which the Saracens made for a long time after Mahomet’s death.”
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm#reformers_on_islam

But the pop-church lost it, in the 19th-20th centuries, it would seem just as prophesied:

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 9:37pm

Quote:

You brought it up this time, not me. But that's OK. It is to be expected that people make comparison's with Hitler whenever they discuss Muhammed. Hitler really was a little Muhammed.

Quote:

This is presumably the reason why you bring up jews when discussing Muhammad's political career at every possible opportunity - even if it means inventing them out of thin air.

I see the point has gone right over your head. Do you think it is acceptable to slaughter non-Jewish POWs? Is it OK to force non-Jews to do the slaughtering to make it harder for them to hold it against you later on?

Quote:

For Watt and most mainstream experts on the subject (who remember you are only to keen to quote when it suits), they are adamant that the issue had nothing to do with any anti-jewish agenda, and everything to do with eliminating clear existential threats to a fledgling nation...

..by slaughtering all the male POWs and riding off on the women. Is it reassuring for you that Muhammed had a reason for slaughtering all those prisoners and raping the women?

Quote:

No one else sees the need to construct a "big bad monster" narrative around this, because you see FD, these people actually look at the issue and the facts objectively, not childishly resorting to emotional reductio ad Hitlerum arguments.

Plenty of people do. Even Muslims constructed a big bad monster narrative around it so that they could be that monster.

Quote:

Tell me FD, are you familiar with the muslim pilgrimage of 628 - when Muhammad led his men in a state of ihram (ie without arms and forbidden to fight) to perform the pilgrimage in Mecca while they were still at war with the Meccans? This was a clear overture for peace, and he succeeded in concluding the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah as a result. In this treaty Muhammad made huge concessions to the Meccans in the interests of peace - even when its clear the muslim state at that time were militarily in a stronger position.

You left out the bit about following this up with the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the area.

Did I say Jews? I meant pagans. That's alright then. They are like Gypsies. Hitler also slaughtered Gypsies.

Quote:

What?? Perhaps its better to stick to what I actually say FD.

You invented the reducto ad hitlerum argument. Muhammed's actions are no less objectionable because he got Arabs instead of Jews to slaughter the Jews. You are the one who made a huge deal about it.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 10:25pm

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 9:37pm:

You brought it up this time, not me. But that's OK. It is to be expected that people make comparison's with Hitler whenever they discuss Muhammed. Hitler really was a little Muhammed.

Much more than most people understand. From Craig Winn's "Prophet of Doom" (I received permission to copy and paste from the author). Much better read at the link which bolds and colors fonts:
http://prophetofdoom.net/Mein_Kampf.Islam

"With the prophet's career summarized and his attributes documented, it's time we take a final look at the man who mirrored his character and mission. Only miles and years distinguished Hitler from his mentor.

Der fuhrer's methods for accomplishing his madness were identical to der prophet's. Mein Kampf:676 "Spiritual terror...men must threaten and dominate men by compulsion. Compulsion is only broken by compulsion and terror by terror." On the road to power, compulsion follows seduction. And the lever that coerces compulsion is terror. Hitler simply followed Muhammad's path. Bukhari:V4B52N220 "Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been made victorious with terror.'"

Mein Kampf:677 "Since our view of life will never share power with another, it cannot co-operate with the existing doctrines it condemns. It is obliged to fight by all available means until the entire world of hostile ideas collapses." Throughout the entirety of the Islamic era we have heard a singular battle cry: Bukhari:V4B53N386 "Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone." Both men envisioned an eternal battle and total submission.

Mein Kampf:677 "This corrosive fight...for the new program and new view of life [religion] demands determined fighters...and a forceful fighting organization. The recipe for a favorable result requires the formulation of a declaration of war against all existing order [religions and doctrines], and against all existing conceptions of life in general." Just like Islam, it was the Nazis against the world. The "House of Islam" forever battles the "House of War." Tabari IX:69 "He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for those who disbelieve, we will fight them forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing them is a small matter to us."

The Nazis usurped Muhammad's dogma. The recipe of "submit and obey" was perfect for empowering their tyrant. Mein Kampf:679 "The strength of a party lies in the disciplined obedience of the members to follow their leadership. The decisive factors are leadership and discipline. When troops battle one another, the victorious one will be that which is blindly obedient to the Superior Leader." Islam says: Ishaq:601 "The best men launch spears as if they were swords. They peer forward unweariedly. They devote their lives to their Prophet. In hand-to-hand fighting and cavalry attacks they purify themselves with the blood of the infidels. They consider that an act of piety."

It is hard to distinguish which poligious doctrine was more fixated on violence. Mein Kampf:680 "In order to lead a view of life to victory, we have to transform it into a fighting movement." Ishaq:587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have cut off every opponent's nose and ears with our swords. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them for they must suffer disgrace."

Like Muhammad, Hitler seduced men before he coerced them. He made promises but never delivered. Mein Kampf:683 "The Party with its program of twenty-five points is unshakable." Ten of the twenty-five Nazi pillars were financial inducements, bribes if you will. Twelve were control mechanisms. Three were focused on fighting. The following Islamic concepts made Hitler's list in Mein Kampf : "abrogation," "duty," "annulment of treaties," the "confiscation of war booty," profit sharing or "distribution of spoils," the party's cut or "fifth," "conquest," "expulsion of nonbelievers," "alms" or pensions for believers, "Jewish businesses to be looted and divided," "Jewish land to become communal," a "ban on Jewish usury," "Jews to be punished by death," "the establishment of the laws" of der Fuhrer," the formation of "an army," "restrictions on journalists," and a "recasting of Christianity." Apart from time and place, der fuhrer's list was an awful lot like der prophet's."

Etc. etc. with much more on the parallels at this link:
http://prophetofdoom.net/Mein_Kampf.Islam

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 11:21pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 11:08am:

.....and the fact that the remaining jews did not offer any objections to their treatment is testament......

Sure, why would those that survived the boys and men that were beheaded - being the remaining pre-pubescent boys and the girls and women of the Banu Qurayza - have had any objection to their brothers, dads and grandpas being beheaded, and having their little sisters, daughters, and moms raped and pressed into sexual slavery?

Enough running and hiding gand. I realize Muhammadans have been blinded to the desires of women by THE false prophet Muhammad, as prophesied in scripture, but try answering the question this time. This question is about those women:

Did the Muhammadans RAPE the women of the Banu Qurayza, or do you believe those girls and women DESIRED to have sex with the men, responsible for beheading their sons, husbands, brothers, fathers and grandfathers, and the rape of their little daughters, sisters, mothers and grandmothers?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 10:38am

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 9:37pm:

You left out the bit about following this up with the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the area.

Jews were not cleansed from the area by Muhammad. Simple historical facts FD.

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 9:37pm:

Did I say Jews? I meant pagans. That's alright then. They are like Gypsies. Hitler also slaughtered Gypsies.

'Pagans' is not really the right word. You make it sound like Muhammad marched into India and destroyed a rich and ancient pagan culture. The culture was the same, and the core points of theology between Muhammad's followers and the Meccans was essentially the same.

The arabs at that time, strictly speaking, were montheists - worshipping the same God of the jews, christians and Muhammad. However they had also set up partners to God and started abandoning the monotheistic teachings and traditions passed down since Abraham.

If you actually bother to read Watt, he argues that Muhammad's movement was a social revolution rather than a radical change in theology. The setting was the rapid growth in mercantilism that came with urbanisation - Arabia underwent a radical transformation from a nomadic bedouin society, to a trade-based one. And with that came massive social changes - traditional bedouin ways of community and social responsibility gave way to selfish individualism. In this setting, Muhammad's teachings, according to Watt, were always geared towards creating a social revolution that addressed the loss of community spirit: take care of the orphans, provide for the poor (eg zakat), stand up against tyranny and oppression.

Not surprisingly, most of Muhammad's early supporters were from the lower, poorer sections of society, while Muhammad's most vehement opponents were the privileged capitalists.

Between the first revelation and the eventual conquest of Mecca, Islam's adherents overwhelmingly came from people "crossing over" from the other side - lured by the "social revolution" message. That is the reality of the spread of islam, yes there were episodes of violence as there are in the advancement of any revolutionary political movement, but they do not define the spread of Islam, which overwhelmingly spread peacefully. To claim that it does, has absolutely no basis in fact.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 9:26pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 10:38am:

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 9:37pm:

You left out the bit about following this up with the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the area.

That's right! They kept the women and children of the Banu Qurayza to rape and press into sexual slavery. The other two Jewish tribes were banished to die in the desert when he stole their property to arm and finance his imperialistic conquest. Since Muhammad and his boys chose not to work for a living they had to steal the fruit of the labor of others.
http://www.brotherpete.com/banu_qurayza_massacre.htm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 10:38am:

Jews were not cleansed from the area by Muhammad. Simple historical facts FD.

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 9:37pm:

Did I say Jews? I meant pagans. That's alright then. They are like Gypsies. Hitler also slaughtered Gypsies.

freediver wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2014 at 9:37pm:

That's exactly right. Pure paganism, including Arabian Star Family worship. That's why Muhammad's followers to this day engage in adopted, adapted, and thinly veneered pagan Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship rituals.
http://www.brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm#al_safa_al_marwah

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 10:38am:

The arabs at that time, strictly speaking, were montheists - worshipping the same God of the jews, christians and Muhammad.

This is a filthy lie on so many levels.
First they worshiped pagan Arabian gods represented by 360 idols. Muslims prostrate toward one of those idols today.
Second the etymology of the name "Allah" tells us that it was the name of the Arabian pagan's moon god, at one time considered the most powerful of all of their pagan deities. Thus the cry to this day "Allah Akbar" or Allah is the greatER or greatEST of all of the Star Family deities.
http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/star.htm

The Quraish worshiped the Arabian Star family just as pagans did in all the other kaabas throughout Arabia. They engaged in those pagan rituals shoulder to shoulder right up until the year before Muhammad's last Hajj, when he kicked the poor pagans out of their own ritual.
http://www.brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm#twaf

Muhammad threw in the jinn-devil worship ritual of the Sa'ee - of running back and forth between two hills Al-Safa and Al-Marwah - that had formerly had the idols of Asaf and Neliah placed on them. The most venerated priest and priestess of the Arabian jinn-devil religion. The legend was that they made love in the Kaaba and were turned to stone, and that is what their statues were doing on Al-Safa and Al-Marwah that Muslims still run back and forth between today. Having been duped into more geographically impossible lies about Hagar and Ishmael.
http://www.religionresearchinstitute.org/Hajj/umra.htm

Muhammad included the Sa'ee to be inclusive of the two lazy caravan plundering bandit tribes of the Oas and Kazraj, that helped him slaughter the Medina Jews, rape their women and steal property, prior to their conquering Mecca.

Third your claim could not be more of a blasphemous lie. Islam is the EXACT OPPOSITE. Islam is ANTICHRIST.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 10:38am:

However they had also set up partners to God and started abandoning the monotheistic teachings and traditions passed down since Abraham.

Simply parroting a lie won't make it magically come true my friend. You parrot Satan's lies even as you already know that Mecca did not exist before the 4th century AD, and that it is a geographical impossibility that Abraham, Hagar or Ishmael were ever within 1,000 kilometers of where Mecca was settled in the 4th century AD.

To learn about Abraham read the only historical record that exists about him. The scriptures, not some heavily abrogated bunch of hogwash recited by a SW Arabian desert dwelling illiterate that was created mainly by his first wife Khadijah's cousin Waraqa bin Naufal, an Ebionite occult priest. As well as a former "Christian" named Jabr, other Christian and Jew wives and concubines of his and such.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/history_of_the_quran.htm#plagiarism_in_quran

Like his denial of Christ's crucifixion that he got from the Gnostic Ebionites by way of Waraqa.
http://www.brotherpete.com/simon_magnus_gnostics_ebionites_islam.htm

Here's an account of when YHWH manifest Himself in the flesh of a man, spoke to Abraham, and even washed His feet and ate and drank with him:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/god_manifest_flesh.htm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 10:38am:

If you actually bother to read Watt, he argues that Muhammad's movement was a social revolution rather than a radical change in theology.

Indeed! The anti-religion of Islam lost any pretense of religiosity when Muhammad slaughtered the Jews, raped their women and stole their property, to begin the Islamic First Jihad imperialistic conquest of nearly the whole known world.

Continu

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 9:49pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 10:38am:

The setting was the rapid growth in mercantilism that came with urbanisation - Arabia underwent a radical transformation from a nomadic bedouin society, to a trade-based one.

This is when Mecca was initially established. Since it was one of the driest places that even Arabia had to offer, there were no pastures or any way for anyone to have survived in the area before trade. The trade route wasn't established until around the 6th century BC (which was also about the time Medina was settled), which was over a thousand years after Abraham, and over 1,000 kilometers away from where Abraham ever traveled.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 10:38am:

And with that came massive social changes ........

Indeed. And unto today. Become a Muslim or pay the price.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 10:38am:

.......- traditional bedouin ways of community and social responsibility gave way to selfish individualism. In this setting, Muhammad's teachings, according to Watt, were always geared towards creating a social revolution that addressed the loss of community spirit: take care of the orphans, provide for the poor (eg zakat), stand up against tyranny and oppression.

Muhammadanism WAS, IS and HAS ALWAYS BEEN the very definition of tyranny and oppression. Death penalty for apostasy:
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/muslim_persecution_of_christians.htm#death_penalty_apostasy

Death penalty for blasphemy:
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/blasphemy_laws.htm

Or as Muhammad put it "causing mischief in the land".

Quran Surah 5:33 The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 10:38am:

Not surprisingly, most of Muhammad's early supporters were from the lower, poorer sections of society, .......

Just as today when they recruit in prison - folks with IQs of 60 or lower, who are willing to believe Muhammad rode on a magic flying donkey-mule, talking ants and birds, Solomon and his troops riding on a magic flying carpet, and that the sun sets in a pool of murky water.
http://www.brotherpete.com/fables_fantasies.htm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 10:38am:

....... while Muhammad's most vehement opponents were the privileged capitalists.

Come on. Muhammad first wife - his sugar momma that was 20 years his senior - was a capitalist.
Muhammad quit working to steal the fruit of the labor of others. Should anybody wonder why hard working productive people were adverse to his stealing the property they worked hard for?

Ishaq:475 "Allah commanded that horses should be kept for His enemy in the fight so they might vex them. We obeyed our Prophet's orders when he called us to war. When he called for violent efforts we made them. The Prophet's command is obeyed for he is truly believed. He will give us victory, glory, and a life of ease. Those who call Muhammad a liar disbelieve and go astray. They attacked our religion and would not submit."

Islam attacking those that do not submit all around the world today. Oh that's right with Sunni and Shiite mutual murder of each others innocents, they attack Islamic countries too!

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 10:38am:

Between the first revelation and the eventual conquest of Mecca, Islam's adherents overwhelmingly came from people "crossing over" from the other side - lured by the "social revolution" message.

Reprobate men lured with the promise of prisoner rape and being able to steal rather than work for a living. Men being fed lies that they would be rewarded in the chicken and wine serving bordello of Muhammad overactive imagination that he called "paradise", if they should inadvertently be killed while engaged in the act of murdering others through imperialistic conquest.
http://www.brotherpete.com/#paradise

Sahih Muslim B 20 #4681 The tradition has been narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah b. Qais. He heard it from his father who, while facing the enemy, reported that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Surely, the gates of paradise are under the shadows of the swords. A man in a shabby condition got up and said; Abu Musa, did you hear the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say this? He said: Yes. (The narrator said): He returned to his friends and said: I greet you (a farewell greeting). Then he broke the sheath of his sword, threw it away, advanced with his (naked) sword towards the enemy and fought (them) with it until he was slain. (also B 19 #4314)
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm#islamic_first_jihad

continued

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 9:55pm

You seem to mention the flying donkey story a lot Pete.

Is there any particular reason? I mean it's ridiculous and humorous I admit, but really not so much so than beliefs of pretty much every other religion.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 10:04pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 10:38am:

That is the reality of the spread of islam, yes there were episodes of violence as there are in the advancement of any revolutionary political movement.....

You mean as in the advancement of every imperialistic conquest, of all morally reprobate megalomaniacs, that had ambition to conquer the world, steal property and subjugate others to themselves.

Bukhari, V1 B2 #24 Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle.....
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 10:38am:

...... but they do not define the spread of Islam, which overwhelmingly spread peacefully. To claim that it does, has absolutely no basis in fact.

Quit the typical lies and Islamic dissimulation and answer the question this time:

Did the Muhammadans RAPE the women of the Banu Qurayza, or do you believe those girls and women DESIRED to have sex with the men, responsible for beheading their sons, husbands, brothers, fathers and grandfathers, and the rape of their little daughters, sisters, mothers and grandmothers?

It would go a long way toward setting you free if you simply admit to the unavoidable fact, that Muhammad and his fellow cutthroat thieves WERE RAPISTS, which is the ONLY POSSIBLE answer to that question.
Do you really think that folks can't see the reason you are ignoring this question?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 10:39pm

Quote:

I can see why he was so keen to wipe them out.

Quote:

If you actually bother to read Watt, he argues that Muhammad's movement was a social revolution rather than a radical change in theology.

A religious and a political ideology, perhaps?

Quote:

And with that came massive social changes - traditional bedouin ways of community and social responsibility gave way to selfish individualism. In this setting, Muhammad's teachings, according to Watt, were always geared towards creating a social revolution that addressed the loss of community spirit: take care of the orphans, provide for the poor (eg zakat), stand up against tyranny and oppression...

...by slaughtering anyone who got in his way.

Quote:

Between the first revelation and the eventual conquest of Mecca, Islam's adherents overwhelmingly came from people "crossing over" from the other side

Of course. Muhammed did not spread Islam by the sword until he was actually able to spread Islam by the sword.

Quote:

yes there were episodes of violence as there are in the advancement of any revolutionary political movement

I think there was only one episode of violence. It went for about 1400 years.

Quote:

but they do not define the spread of Islam, which overwhelmingly spread peacefully

Muhammed and his sucessors were more than happy to use intimidation as much as actual violence, but you need a good show of violence and rabid, unreasoning psychopathy occasionally to get the message out. It's a bit of a stretch to call that peaceful. Abu liked to tell us that people welcomed Muhammed's army with open arms because he promised to lower taxes etc. He also conceded that the offer of peace made by Muslims was backed with an offer of violence, but somehow didn't see any contradiction.

Quote:

To claim that it does, has absolutely no basis in fact.

Except of course for the 1400 years of spreading Islam by the sword. I remember Abu giving the same BS spiel. He even tried to claim that Muslims crossed the Mediterranean to invade Spain in self defense. It did not spread peacefully, but rather with endless threats and justifications for brutal violence.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 6:25am

freediver wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 10:39pm:

Quote:
Between the first revelation and the eventual conquest of Mecca, Islam's adherents overwhelmingly came from people "crossing over" from the other side

Of course. Muhammed did not spread Islam by the sword until he was actually able to spread Islam by the sword.

The inconsistencies in your meme is hilarious. You realise I was referring to a campaign that happened in the last year of his life right? Are you happilly admitting that right up until then Islam spread peacefully? What happened to his career of rape and pillage starting from the battle of the trench 6 years earlier?

At least put some thought into constructing a plausible meme.

freediver wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 10:39pm:

strawman.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 8:19am

Quote:

I am saying that Muhammed and his followers used whatever means were available, none of theme exclusively, as I just finished explaining. All empires spread this way. You might as well argue that Muhammed was peaceful on the day he executed 800 Jews, because most of the day was defined by brief periods in between heads being chopped off.

Quote:

strawman

It is not a strawman. Even you have tried to pretend that the Muslim empire only spread in self defense, and that Muhammed only slaughtered people and took sex slaves in self defense.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 10:28am

freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 8:19am:

You are making it up as you go along. In reality you don't have a clue:

freediver wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 10:39pm:

Obviously you had no clue that the event in question happened right at the end of Muhammad's life and career, otherwise you wouldn't so knowingly contradict the meme you have been hammering ad-infinitum that Muhammad spent most of the previous 6 years raping and pillaging his way across Arabia. The same meme, which incidentally, you just casually threw in just one line above:

freediver wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2014 at 10:39pm:

Quote:
And with that came massive social changes - traditional bedouin ways of community and social responsibility gave way to selfish individualism. In this setting, Muhammad's teachings, according to Watt, were always geared towards creating a social revolution that addressed the loss of community spirit: take care of the orphans, provide for the poor (eg zakat), stand up against tyranny and oppression...

...by slaughtering anyone who got in his way.

...except when he didn't slaughter anyone who got in his way - say like the entire 6 years before the conquest of Mecca - like you just said.

You know FD, even most rabid islamophobes with even an ounce of intelligence would be embarassed by your "garr evil Muhammad" version of early islam.

freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 8:19am:

It is not a strawman.

It is a strawman - we were talking about the career of Muhammad, not his successors.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Yadda on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 11:55am

freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 8:19am:

Quote:

It is not a strawman. Even you have tried to pretend that the Muslim empire only spread in self defense,

....and that Muhammed only slaughtered people and took sex slaves in self defense.

[/quote]

LOL

Skewered, FD!

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by moses on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 1:32pm

muslims have rules and regulations for laughing. The internet is full of islamic sites which give the guidelines:

a typical example here

The rules roughly are:

Jokes must always praise allah

Jokes should only be the truth.

Don't play practical jokes

The jokes should not be excessive e.g.: don't make a habit of telling jokes.

Don't joke about people’s status, character

Don't tell too many jokes you lose your respect

In other words the Australian sense of humor is totally forbidden in islam

Now muhammad is quoted as saying “Do not laugh too much, for verily excessive laughter kills the heart.” (Bukhari, Adab al-Mufrad; Sunan Tirmidhi; Sunan Ibn Maja; Musnad Ahmad)

The following extracts explain the killing of the heart here

Quote:

“For verily excessive laughter kills the heart, i.e., engulfs it in layers of darkness, akin to a dead person that cannot benefit from anything beneficial nor ward off from himself any harm.

citing various Imams, “Excessive laughter leads to a hardening of the heart, which in turn leads to heedlessness [of the Divine], and the death of the heart occurs not except by heedlessness.”

“Getting accustomed to laughter distracts one from reflecting on matters of significance…one who laughs excessively does not have a respectful demeanor

“Excessive laughter and excitement regarding worldly affairs is a lethal poison that flows in one’s veins and removes from the heart fear [of divine punishment], sadness [over one’s sins]

Laughter that kills the heart is that which occurs due to rejoicing over this life and being prideful in one’s joy thereof. T

the reason why excessive laughter kills the heart is because the root of excessive laughter is love of this world, which is the cause of every sin

Laughter is good for you (it makes you happy), the more the better, some people think offensive, crude jokes are the way to go , me I just ignore them. (just thought I'd throw that in before some apologist starts with the so you're all for saying anything goes you just pass it off as a joke?)

The muslim way is moderate laughter / happiness, don't laugh because you're happy with your lot in life, don't play practical jokes, don't take the mickey out of people, don't laugh over world affairs etc etc.

In other words, keep it straight, don't show too much emotional happiness.

Have you ever noticed in the papers, T.V., magazines etc. you never see muslims smiling or happy?

EXCEPT:

When they are burning churches, killing Christians, beheading people, killing people over supposed insults to the qur'an, killing apostates. killing non muslims, honour killing their wives and daughters, killing people over blasphemy, killing people who insult muhammad etc.etc.

Then, howling allahu akbar they whip themselves into frenzied euphoria, utter mass hysterical jubilation, at the prospect of being able to commit the worst, most inhumane atrocities conceivable, against their fellow man. (no teachings there about too much happiness will kill your heart)

Once again by their very deeds (in 2014, I might add) muslims show that islam/allah/muhammad/qur'an is most certainly a spiritual and physical Abomination For Desolation,

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by moses on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 1:32pm

triple post on an edit?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by moses on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 1:33pm

double post?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 6:12pm

Quote:

...except when he didn't slaughter anyone who got in his way - say like the entire 6 years before the conquest of Mecca - like you just said.

Muhammed "predicted" that Muslims would ethnically cleanse pagans from Mecca and a large area of Arabia. That is exactly what they did.

Quote:

It is a strawman - we were talking about the career of Muhammad, not his successors.

A strawman is where you falsely attribute a weak argument to your opponent. In other threads where I have to repeatedly point out that I did not actually say what you attribute to me, I am accusing you of using a strawman argument. I suspect you meant shifting the goal posts.

In any case, both Muhammed and his immediate successors (often acting on Muhammed's specific word, as in this case of ethnic cleansing) used threats, intimidation and actual violence whenever it suited them, with no rule or consistency other than whatever was in their immediate interests. When they could get people to surrender to them by offering a choice between rape and slaughter or a slightly less grinding oppression, they often got away with the "peaceful" option - not because they were peaceful, but because they were so happy to demonstrate their brutality to anyone who did not choose submission.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 7:53pm

freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 6:12pm:

Muhammed "predicted" that Muslims would ethnically cleanse pagans from Mecca and a large area of Arabia.

lol no he didn't. You are one confused puppy.

Also its a bit hard to "ethnically" cleanse an area that consists of people all of the same ethnicity. :P

freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 6:12pm:

A strawman is where you falsely attribute a weak argument to your opponent.

Well done. Now lets see a demonstration of "constructing a strawman":

Gandalf wrote:

Quote:

Between the first revelation and the eventual conquest of Mecca, Islam's adherents overwhelmingly came from people "crossing over" from the other side - lured by the "social revolution" message. That is the reality of the spread of islam, yes there were episodes of violence as there are in the advancement of any revolutionary political movement, but they do not define the spread of Islam, which overwhelmingly spread peacefully. To claim that it does, has absolutely no basis in fact.

[hint: highlighted bit provides the relevant context to this point]

FD responded:

Quote:

Here you are not responding to my claim that was clearly about the spread of islam under Muhammad only, and instead construct an imaginary argument that was about the entire history of the spread of islam - most of which happened after the time of Muhammad. Or in other words, you construct an argument I never made, then expertly cut it down thinking that it is *MY* argument when it is not.

Long story short, you did nothing to address the point I was making.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 8:07pm

Quote:

hint: highlighted bit provides the relevant context to this point

Sure, if you pretend that I was responding to a point I was not responding to, then my response makes noe sense. Try highlighting this bit instead, then think about it some more:

Quote:

yes there were episodes of violence as there are in the advancement of any revolutionary political movement, but they do not define the spread of Islam, which overwhelmingly spread peacefully

Quote:

Here you are not responding to my claim that was clearly about the spread of islam under Muhammad only

There are plenty of examples of Muhammed acting violently and attacking people in an aggressive war that had absolutely nothing to do with self defense. I even started a thread listing the examples for you, but you went all shy on me. Muhammed's successors continued this pattern of behaviour - thus demonstrating the dangers of holding a violent warmongering pedophile rapist to be God's messenger on earth.

Quote:

lol no he didn't. You are one confused puppy.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Islam_and_Australian_values#Collective_Punishment.2C_Genocide_and_Ethnic_Cleansing

Muhammed "prophesied" the ethnic cleansing of all non-Muslims from the Arabian peninsula by his second successor Umar. He told Umar of this prediction in person. Umar partially fulfilled this prophesy, expelling all non-Muslims from the Hijaz area. Of course, all the non-Muslims brought this upon themselves by breaking covenants with Muhammed, and the harsh punishment was necessitated by the dire threats posed by the Jews and others to the Islamic state, and by the hostility of the Pagans. [115] [116] Muslims will also attempt to pass this off as 'voluntary' conversion to Islam by every single pagan on the peninsula. [117] Christians were also expelled as collective punishment, resulting in the population of a large area (around modern day Saudi Arabia) becoming 100% Muslim. [118] Geopolitical strategy is cited as an excuse for forced relocation from the Arabian peninsula, and Muslims consider that the people involved were lucky not to meet a worse fate. [119] Muhammed used pillage and murder as a form of punishment. Muslims justify Muhammed 'putting down' people by citing later examples where non-Muslims were the perpetrators. [120][121] Muslims will attempt to derail discussing of collective punishment under Muhammed into a debate about the meaning of the term, without offering an alternative meaning. [122]

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 8:47pm

freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 8:07pm:

Sure, if you pretend that I was responding to a point I was not responding to

If you prefer to call it a red herring, then thats fine by me.

freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 8:07pm:

Even though, according to you, it was a during the time before he was actually able to spread Islam by the sword. ;D

Oh the travails of making sh*t up on the spot without even thinking about it eh FD?

freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 8:07pm:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Islam_and_Australian_values#Collec...

Ah FD's impeccably sourced wiki says it, so it must be true.

I'll give you a clue FD, cause you are really struggling with this: no one, not even your wiki sources claims that Muhammad predicted the "ethnic cleansing" of "pagans".

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 9:49pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 10:28am:

You know FD, even most rabid islamophobes with even an ounce of intelligence would be embarassed by your "garr evil Muhammad" version of early islam.

There is no other version, according to Islam's own books - in early Islam and unto today.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm
For some reason you seem to have missed my question, for what now, the 5th time or so, even though the font is large and bolded. Pretty hard to miss gand:

Did the Muhammadans RAPE the women of the Banu Qurayza, or do you believe those girls and women DESIRED to have sex with the men, responsible for beheading their sons, husbands, brothers, fathers and grandfathers, and the rape of their little daughters, sisters, mothers and grandmothers?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 9:56pm

Quote:

If you prefer to call it a red herring, then thats fine by me.

Well I'm glad you got to the bottom of that so quickly.

Quote:

Even though, according to you, it was a during the time before he was actually able to spread Islam by the sword.

This is an example of a strawman.

Quote:

I'll give you a clue FD, cause you are really struggling with this: no one, not even your wiki sources claims that Muhammad predicted the "ethnic cleansing" of "pagans".

So give us your version then Gandalf. I'm sure they deserved it.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Baronvonrort on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 10:16pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 7:53pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 6:12pm:

Muhammed "predicted" that Muslims would ethnically cleanse pagans from Mecca and a large area of Arabia.

lol no he didn't. You are one confused puppy.

Also its a bit hard to "ethnically" cleanse an area that consists of people all of the same ethnicity. :P

Quote:

Between the first revelation and the eventual conquest of Mecca

Yep the conquest of Mecca, the word conquest says it all.

So what do the Islamic texts say?
www.sunnah.com/search/expel-jews

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Yadda on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 10:19pm

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 9:49pm:

For some reason you seem to have missed my question, for what now, the 5th time or so, even though the font is large and bolded. Pretty hard to miss gand:

Did the Muhammadans RAPE the women of the Banu Qurayza, or do you believe those girls and women DESIRED to have sex with the men, responsible for beheading their sons, husbands, brothers, fathers and grandfathers, and the rape of their little daughters, sisters, mothers and grandmothers?

Pete,

gandalf can't address this question, because a moslem can never admit that Mohammed and his companions committed rape [or even a crime], when Mohammed and his companions had sex with their female 'war booty', in the aftermath of the Banu Qurayza massacre.

"Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah. "
Koran 33.21

For a devout moslem, all things are permissible, if they are permitted by Sharia.

And a moslem man can lawfully have sex with his female captives - even if the moslem man has just moments ago, 'executed' her sons, husband, brothers, father.

"..Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess:..."
Koran 4.22-24

"O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee;..."
Koran 33.50

"those whom your right hands possess" = = female captives.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 11:07pm

freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 9:56pm:

So give us your version then Gandalf. I'm sure they deserved it.

Sure. My version is that you completely made up the claim that Muhammad predicted that "pagans" would be "ethnically [ ;D] cleansed" from Arabia.

freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 9:56pm:

This is an example of a strawman.

You are probably right FD, I may be being unfair. Thus when you responded to:

Quote:

Between the first revelation and the eventual conquest of Mecca, Islam's adherents overwhelmingly came from people "crossing over" from the other side

with...

Quote:

Of course. Muhammed did not spread Islam by the sword until he was actually able to spread Islam by the sword.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 5^th, 2014 at 1:08am

Yadda wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 10:19pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 9:49pm:

I guess I'm optimistic enough to believe that every once in a great while an individual antichrist will find that moment of clarity, to realize that by lying for Satan and following Satan through the spirit of antichrist in Islam, they find themselves on the fast track straight to the pit of hell. That they are sacrificing their eternity, for the brief moment of this earthly life, by following Muhammad alone and wallowing in Satan's lies.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1390714478/16#16

Gandalf's inability to respond to that question, confirms where he chooses to wind up, completely of his own volition.

It would be pointless to have further discussion with someone who by his failure to respond tacitly admits, that he follows a man that he himself knows is revealed as a mass-murdering, terrorist, rapist thief. However it will continue to provide a source of good instruction, to those Muslim lurkers who visit the forum, that are genuinely seeking the truth.

And gandalf follows Muhammad in knowledge, and will be without excuse or able to plead ignorance, when he stands before Jesus Christ in judgment. When he stands before the very Son of God gandalf and all Muslims deny and blaspheme.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Yadda on Feb 5^th, 2014 at 7:29am

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 5^th, 2014 at 1:08am:

Yadda wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 10:19pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 9:49pm:

.....Gandalf's inability to respond to that question, confirms where he chooses to wind up, completely of his own volition.

......And gandalf follows Muhammad in knowledge, and will be without excuse or able to plead ignorance, when he stands before Jesus Christ in judgment. When he stands before the very Son of God gandalf and all Muslims deny and blaspheme.

Pete,

Even the words of the Koran, condemn moslems who knowingly disobey the truth;

Two of my favourite Koran verses.....

"Satan makes them promises, and creates in them false desires; but satan's promises are nothing but deception.
They (his dupes) will have their dwelling in Hell, and from it they will find no way of escape."
Koran 4.120

"Then, on the Day of Judgment,.....Then would they offer submission (with the pretence), "We did no evil (knowingly)." (The angels will reply), "Nay, but verily [God] knoweth all that ye did;"
Koran 16.27

+++

Pete,

Moslems proclaim that they are righteously at war with the kuffar - the infidels, who their god hates.

But moslems are self deceivers, who's own self deceit, blinds moslems to the fact that it is moslems [themselves], who are the very persons [the 'kuffar'], who they [moslems] claim to 'righteously' despise!

WHO IS THE 'KUFFAR' ???

kuffar = = infidel = = 'a person who hides, denies, or covers the truth' = = liar
= = MOSLEM

"Dear muslim, YOU are the kuffar"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1229682951/0#0

Quote:

You who embrace ISLAM, your own lies and deception, have become a witness against you, before God......

"kuffar" = = "...is an Arabic word meaning.....[an unbeliever] a person....who hides, denies, or covers the truth."

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Feb 5^th, 2014 at 12:36pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 11:07pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 9:56pm:

So give us your version then Gandalf. I'm sure they deserved it.

Sure. My version is that you completely made up the claim that Muhammad predicted that "pagans" would be "ethnically [ ;D] cleansed" from Arabia.

freediver wrote on Feb 4^th, 2014 at 9:56pm:

This is an example of a strawman.

You are probably right FD, I may be being unfair. Thus when you responded to:

Quote:

Between the first revelation and the eventual conquest of Mecca, Islam's adherents overwhelmingly came from people "crossing over" from the other side

with...

[quote]Of course. Muhammed did not spread Islam by the sword until he was actually able to spread Islam by the sword.

it was unfair of me to insinuate that you actually had a clue that the period we were talking about represents the vast majority of Muhammad's time as leader of the islamic state, and that it directly contradicted your "career of rape and pillage" meme. So I'm happy to change the description of this episode from "contradicting yourself" to something fairer... say - "making sh*t up as you go and being completely clueless about the historical facts"[/quote]

Muhammed may well have wiped his arse in a peaceful manner, on occasion. That would not contradict my "meme" in any way.

Did you follow the links to the discussion about the ethnic cleansing of pagans? I can bump the threads for you if you'd prefer. I hardly made it up. Is my error merely that I did not put the politically correct spin on it that you would like?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 5^th, 2014 at 5:31pm

freediver wrote on Feb 5^th, 2014 at 12:36pm:

Muhammed may well have wiped his arse in a peaceful manner, on occasion.

The question is did he wash his arse correctly. That is by pouring from the pitcher, while sticking 2/3 of his middle finger up his butt and caressing forward on each of 3 times (ladies caressing backward), in the Islamically correct technique of butt fingering.
See: Islamically Correct Butt Wash
http://iranpoliticsclub.net/islam/khomeini-toilet/

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 6^th, 2014 at 10:09pm

OK gand. So your inability to deny that Muhammad and his fellow cutthroats were prisoner rapists, is of course because they were.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 11:39am:

freediver wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 7:37pm:

:-? We have two christians on this very forum who clearly do not reject this sort of state-sponsored ~~violence~~ genocide.

freediver wrote on Jan 29^th, 2014 at 7:37pm:

Muhammed revived it

If by "state-sponsored violence" you mean fighting in accordance to a just war theory, then Christianity,.......

There is only one "war theory" in Christianity.

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 11:39am:

....... judaism and islam are on the same page. Even Jesus was ordering his disciples to arm themselves and prepare the (violent) defense of the new religion.

OK gand, this is a request I will not allow you to ignore.
Please provide evidence to support your claim.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Yadda on Feb 6^th, 2014 at 11:54pm

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 6^th, 2014 at 10:09pm:

That is the moral ideal - to aim for.

But if man [in the flesh], falls short of that ideal, does God condemn him ? Always ?

e.g.
Even Jesus acknowledged the 'condition' of man, the 'condition' which man struggles with.

Matthew 26:39
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

And Paul too acknowledged the nature and the weakness of the flesh.

Romans 12:17
Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

Pete,

Though i try, i do not measure up to Christ's perfection.

I acknowledge my error [before God], and i look for God's mercy.

Psalms 32:1
Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 5:27am

Don't let Yadda's personal note distract you gand.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 11:39am:

Even Jesus was ordering his disciples to arm themselves and prepare the (violent) defense of the new religion.

OK gand, this is a request I will not allow you to ignore.
Please provide evidence to support your accusation.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 6:57am

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 5:27am:

OK gand, this is a request I will not allow you to ignore.
Please provide evidence to support your accusation.

Accusation? That implies it is something bad or incriminating. I don't consider matters of self-defense to be something to be ashamed of Pete.

Quote:

‘When I sent you out without a purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?’ They said, ‘No, not a thing.’ He said to them, ‘But now, the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one. For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me, “And he was counted among the lawless”: and indeed what is written about me is being fulfilled.” They said, ‘Lord, look, here are two swords.’ He replied, ‘It is enough.’ (Luke 22:35-38)

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 7:13am

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 6:57am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 5:27am:

OK gand, this is a request I will not allow you to ignore.
Please provide evidence to support your accusation.

Accusation? That implies it is something bad or incriminating. I don't consider matters of self-defense to be something to be ashamed of Pete.

Nor are you ashamed of Muhammad's imperialistic aggression, mass murder of innocent young Jewish farm boys, their dads and grandpas - who never struck a blow - the rape of their little sisters, moms and grandmothers, and theft of the fruit of their labor of generations.

However Jesus did not even try to defend Himself. He knew He was to serve as the sacrificial Lamb of God.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

To carry the weight of the sins of the world, just as prophesied in Isaiah so many hundreds of years in advance:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/isaiah_53.htm

Isaiah 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

He even forgave those who crucified Him.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Luk&c=23&v=34&t=KJV#s=996034

You see gand, Muhammad was the exact opposite of Jesus. That is why you are trying to tear the sinless Messiah down to the level Muhammad's carnal reprobate nature.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 6:57am:

Quote:

‘When I sent you out without a purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?’ They said, ‘No, not a thing.’ He said to them, ‘But now, the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one. For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me, “And he was counted among the lawless”: and indeed what is written about me is being fulfilled.” They said, ‘Lord, look, here are two swords.’ He replied, ‘It is enough.’ (Luke 22:35-38)

I even warned you about filthy lying Islamic dissimulators like Ahmed Deedat and Yusuf Estes. It is pervasive throughout the Islamic community, because Muhammadans follow the father of lies.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1390996044

Unless you give me reason to believe otherwise I'll continue to presume you are one of their Bible-ignorant unwitting victims, rather than a witting perpetrator of such lies.
So didn't you ever read the passage and try thinking for yourself?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 11:39am:

Even Jesus was ordering his disciples to arm themselves and prepare the (violent) defense of the new religion.

So what kind of "(violent) defense of the new religion" do you suppose they would have been out to wage, against the Roman army that was coming to get Jesus, when Jesus considered 2 swords to be enough?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 11:10am

So Pete, are you saying that verse is not Jesus ordering his disciples to prepare to violently defend the new religion?

Simple non-rambling answer will suffice.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 8:47pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 11:10am:

So Pete, are you saying that verse is not Jesus ordering his disciples to prepare to violently defend the new religion?

Simple non-rambling answer will suffice.

I realize that facing the sinless Messiah as compared to Muhammad's reprobate behavior is difficult for antichrists. But to continue to make such a ridiculous suggestion about your prooftexted verses, expresses such abject ignorance to the Gospel and its prophets and witnesses, as to be absolutely appalling. Let alone your insisting on continuing in self-imposed abject ignorance to the very verses you quoted.

Why don't you start by simply answering the question I posed at the bottom of the post instead of wasting more of our time?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by True Colours on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 9:12pm

Bible says Anti-Christ will deny Jesus is the Messiah (2 John 1:7)

Muslims: "Jesus is the Christ"

Jews: "Jesus is not the Christ"

So which resemble the anti-Christ Jews or Muslims?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 9:23pm

True Colours wrote on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 9:12pm:

Bible says Anti-Christ will deny Jesus is the Messiah (2 John 1:7)

Muslims: "Jesus is the Christ"

Jews: "Jesus is not the Christ"

So which resemble the anti-Christ Jews or Muslims?

The scriptures contain more than one verse. Seems you've been fooled by Islam's dissimulating liars, like Ahmed Deedat and Yusuf Estes, that take advantage of their Bible-ignorant adoring minions.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1390996044

Let's check out a few more verses:

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

2John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

1John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

2Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

I hope that helped. There are of course hundreds of verses in the New Testament that reveal the Son of God:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/jesus_the_son_of_god.htm
And His Father:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/god_the_father.htm

Yet those that follow the false prophet Muhammad alone, through his STAND-ALONE heavily abrogated 23 year 7th century record, must reject the 1600 year record of Yahweh to mankind as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses, whose people have followed Him through two covenants for 3500 years.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by True Colours on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 9:45pm

The Bible says:

Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword [shall be] upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.
- Zechariah 11:17

...upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
- Revealations 13:1

According to the book Saheeh al-Muslim, Prophet Muhammed was quoted as saying:

"The Anti-Christ is blind of one eye and there is written between his eyes the word "infidel" ('kafir' in Arabic). He then spelled the word as k-f-r (in the de-vowelised Arabic script), which every believer would be able to read."

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 9:54pm

True Colours wrote on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 9:45pm:

That would be the name of the Arabian pagan's moon god "Allah":
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/the_name_allah.htm

The name on the head of THE false prophet Muhammad's Islamic kingdom "beast".
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/leopard_bear_lion_beast.htm

True Colours wrote on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 9:45pm:

According to the book Saheeh al-Muslim, Prophet Muhammed was quoted as saying:

"The Anti-Christ is blind of one eye and there is written between his eyes the word "infidel" ('kafir' in Arabic). He then spelled the word as k-f-r (in the de-vowelised Arabic script), which every believer would be able to read."

But as the verses I quoted from scripture clearly indicate, Muhammad was an antichrist liar that denied the Lord that bought him.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/

So why would you believe the fable in his 23 year 7th century record about a one eyed boogieman, any more than you should believe his ridiculous story about riding on a flying donkey-mule from Mecca, to Jerusalem, up to the "paradise" of his overactive imagination, and back to Mecca by morning?
http://www.brotherpete.com/mohammeds_night_journey.htm

Try reading the verses in my prior post again. Your choice, your fate.

Why use the big gaps between text? So you can rush the thread to the next page so you won't have to continue to face those scriptures?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by True Colours on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 10:13pm

The Bible says:

"he (the Anti-Christ) shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god"
- Daniel 11:36

"And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him (the Anti-Christ)"
- Revealations 13:8

In the book, Musnad of Ahmed, Prophet Muhammed is quoted as saying:

"the Anti-Christ will ask, "Am I not your Lord (God)? Do I not give life and death?"

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 10:18pm

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 7:13am:

So what kind of "(violent) defense of the new religion" do you suppose they would have been out to wage, against the Roman army that was coming to get Jesus, when Jesus considered 2 swords to be enough?

Obviously not (and by the way, Jesus was arrested by the jewish temple guards - not the Romans). Jesus was meant to be arrested, it was God's plan, so there's obviously no sense in resisting that.

Look I understand the metaphorical interpretation of that verse, but the literal interpretation - that this sanctions violence in self defense is not exactly a fringe view amongst Christians. It also arguably contextualises Exodus 22:2-3 - "he who lives by the sword will die by the sword" (ie only use violence when absolutely necessary, and don't use it in excess). These are reasonable arguments that have already been made. Perhaps you should take more notice of your own theological debates.

A good brief analysis:
http://www.loveyourenemies.org/sword.html

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by True Colours on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 10:27pm

Bible says of Anti-Christ:

"Because a number of false teachers have gone out into the world, who do not give witness that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. Such a one is a false teacher and Antichrist."
- 2 John 1:7

The Quran says not only was Jesus Christ born of flesh but that he was a mortal man who was born of Mary and is not a god or son of god but rather a messenger/prophet of God:

"O people of the Bible! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of God nothing but the truth. The Christ, Jesus, son of Mary, was a Messenger of God and (a result of) His (God's) Word, which He bestowed on Mary and a spirit created by Him (God); so believe in God and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For God is One god, far exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And God is all-Sufficient as a disposer of affairs."
- An-Nisa, v.171

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 11:18pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 10:18pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 7:13am:

Obviously not (and by the way, Jesus was arrested by the jewish temple guards - not the Romans).

The Jews lived at the pleasure of the Romans, under the Roman Empire (until they were slaughtered by the Romans in 70 AD and again in 132 AD). That's why they appealed to Pilate.

John 19:6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him. 7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

Jesus was executed for being the Son of God. Thus Muhammad's followers crucify Jesus all over again, day in and day out.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/islam_is_antichrist.htm
Regarding those that came there were indeed officers of the Jews but:

KJV John 18:12 Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took Jesus, and bound him,

band Strong's G4686 - speira
1. a military cohort
the tenth part of legion
about 600 men i.e. legionaries
if auxiliaries either 500 or 1000
a maniple, or the thirtieth part of a legion
2. any band, company, or detachment, of soldiers

captain - Strong's G5506 - chiliarchos
1. a chiliarch, the commander of a thousand soldiers
2. the commander of a Roman cohort (a military tribunal)
3. any military commander

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 10:18pm:

Jesus was meant to be arrested, it was God's plan, so there's obviously no sense in resisting that.

That's right. It also refutes your accusation that the intent of the verses you prooftexted were toward a "(violent) defense of the new religion" of Christianity with only two swords. So until you present further evidence to support your accusation it will remain a false one. That's why I initially referred to it simply as an accusation, hoping you would eventually see your way clear, to label it appropriately yourself.

Were the disciples sent out to spread the Gospel with swords the way Muhammad's followers were? They didn't even have money, let alone a spare coat.

Mat 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, 10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

Everywhere they went they were invited to meals and lodging. However they of course weren't unarmed, or without armor:

Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

How many of Jesus' followers died in a sword fight? Did Jesus' disciples die inadvertently while in the act of murdering others, the way Muhammad's followers did during their imperialistic aggression of the First Jihad, or were the Apostles and disciples of Jesus simply murdered in cold blood purely because of what they believed, just the way Christians continue to be murdered all around the world today by Muhammadans?
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/muslim_persecution_of_christians.htm

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 11:23pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 10:18pm:

Look I understand the metaphorical interpretation of that verse, but the literal interpretation - that this sanctions violence in self defense is not exactly a fringe view amongst Christians.

You seem to want to keep relying on the interpretation of others. In this singular incident, Jesus requested that swords be brought and that 2 were enough. It's obvious it wasn't to begin a jihad against Pharisees or Romans.
But what was the result? I see the result as having provided a lesson. Both to his disciples as well as to those that were about to seize Him. Specifically so His followers would not try to defend or rescue Him from His fate through violence (nor for that matter defend Christianity through violence as you got exactly backwards).

Look at Matthew's account: Mat 26:51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. 52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

So we find a repeat of the old covenant lesson you yourself quoted.

So you are a long way from supporting your accusation. Would you please present some more evidence to support your claim that.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 11:39am:

Even Jesus was ordering his disciples to arm themselves and prepare the (violent) defense of the new religion.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 10:18pm:

It also arguably contextualises Exodus 22:2-3 - "he who lives by the sword will die by the sword" (ie only use violence when absolutely necessary, and don't use it in excess). These are reasonable arguments that have already been made. Perhaps you should take more notice of your own theological debates.

A good brief analysis:
http://www.loveyourenemies.org/sword.html

Perhaps you should try reading the Gospel for yourself some time, and prayerfully and humbly ask Jesus for help in understanding, before each time that you do.
Oh wait, I guess you would be committing the false prophet Muhammad's ONLY UNFORGIVABLE SIN if you prayed to Jesus (as Christians have for 2,000 years), wouldn't you?

So who should we suppose might have set up a trap like that?
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388407613/43#43

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by True Colours on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 2:02am

The Bible tells us who the liars are:

"Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ."
- 1 John 2:22

Muslims: "Jesus is the Christ!"

Jews: "Jesus is not Christ"

So who are the enemies of Christ? Who will be the supporters of the Anti-Christ?

"And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus..."
- John 5:16

"Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him"
-John 5:18

"Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him"
- John 7:1

"no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews."
- John 7:13

"Then answered the Jews, and said unto him (Jesus), Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?"
-John 8:48

"Then said the Jews unto him (Jesus), Now we know that thou hast a devil.
-John 8:52

"They feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he (Jesus) was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue."
- John 9:21

Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews
- John 19:38

the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews
- John 20:19

the Jews took counsel to kill him
- Acts 9:23

when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy
- Acts 13:45

the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles, and made their minds evil affected against the brethren
-Acts 14:2

But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason
- Acts 17:5

"Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not...Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him."
- John 10:24-32

"Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews"
- John 11:54

"Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took Jesus, and bound him"
- John 18:12

"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty (but thou art rich), and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not but the synagogue of Satan."
- Revelations 2:9

Anas bin Malik reported that Prophet Muhammed (may peace be upon him) said: "The Anti-Christ would be followed by seventy thousand Jews..."
(Sahih Muslim - Book 041,Hadith Number 7034)

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 2:13am

True Colours wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 2:02am:

The Bible tells us who the liars are:

Exactly so. Just as I showed you earlier:

1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Do you believe the record that God gave of his Son or are you a liar TC?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 10:04am

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 6:57am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 5:27am:

OK gand, this is a request I will not allow you to ignore.
Please provide evidence to support your accusation.

Accusation? That implies it is something bad or incriminating. I don't consider matters of self-defense to be something to be ashamed of Pete.

Quote:

So Gandalf uses a verse where Jesus says two swords is enough, to equate Jesus with Muhammed the warmonger?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by True Colours on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 10:17am

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 2:13am:

True Colours wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 2:02am:

The Bible tells us who the liars are:

Why should anyone believe that the Bible is from God? It is a polytheistic book full of contradictions.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by True Colours on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 10:41am

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 10:41am

freediver wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 10:04am:

So Gandalf uses a verse where Jesus says two swords is enough, to equate Jesus with Muhammed the warmonger?

Would you prefer the passage where Jesus returns to earth covered in blood and slaughters all of his enemies?

(obviously hasn't happened)

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by True Colours on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 10:45am

http://www.evilbible.com/Biblical%20Contradictions.htm

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by True Colours on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 11:08am

Stratos wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 10:41am:

freediver wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 10:04am:

So Gandalf uses a verse where Jesus says two swords is enough, to equate Jesus with Muhammed the warmonger?

Would you prefer the passage where Jesus returns to earth covered in blood and slaughters all of his enemies?

(obviously hasn't happened)

all kindreds of the earth shall wail before him
- Revelations 1:7

"clothed with a garment dipped in blood"
- Revelations 19:13

"he shall rule them with a rod of iron, for he it is that treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."
- Revelations 19:15

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 11:09am

Stratos wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 10:41am:

freediver wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 10:04am:

So Gandalf uses a verse where Jesus says two swords is enough, to equate Jesus with Muhammed the warmonger?

Would you prefer the passage where Jesus returns to earth covered in blood and slaughters all of his enemies?

(obviously hasn't happened)

I would prefer Gandalf to suck it up, be objective, and admit that the two are about as diametrically opposed as you can get when it comes to endorsing violence.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 9:24pm

True Colours wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 10:17am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 2:13am:

True Colours wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 2:02am:

The Bible tells us who the liars are:

Why should anyone believe that the Bible is from God? It is a polytheistic book full of contradictions.

You poor lost soul. You run around quoting the Bible, as if through your misunderstanding it is supposed to support your hatred of Jews, but it is Satan alone that feeds your hatred and lies.

1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death. 15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

It is Satan alone, that is responsible for your murder of Jews, not the Bible.

Then you proclaim that the Bible tells us who the liars are, but when you find that it informs us that the liar is you, all of a sudden you don't like the Bible so much any more.

Your chasing from one lie to the next is because you must reject the one true God Yahweh, as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses in His 1600 year record to mankind, to follow the father of lies through his STAND-ALONE "messenger" Muhammad.

You posted a webpage that it appears comes from the Godless atheists at so-called "Project Reason". The reason it appealed to you is because atheists are fellow antichrists of yours. You depend on those that hate Jesus, to further advance your brainwashing into Muhammad's cult, but do you really think atheists are the best people to rely on for information regarding the scriptures?

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Did you ever take a moment to try a search like - bible contradictions resolved?
https://www.google.com/#q=bible+contradictions+resolved
Or - bible contradictions answered.....
https://www.google.com/#q=bible+contradictions+answered

.....in an effort to honestly seek out the truth? Of course you haven't because you know you follow the father of lies, and you know that if you actually sought out the truth you would come to know that the love of the one true God of the scriptures, is the exact opposite of the 7th century imperialistic aggression, child rape, mass murder, prisoner rape, terrorism and thievery of Muhammadanism.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/the_love_of_god.htm

If you sought out the truth you could come into relationship with Jesus Christ, just as so many millions of your former brethren have:
http://www.muslimjourneytohope.com/watch.php

You follow Muhammad alone, through his STAND-ALONE heavily abrogated 23 year 7th century record because you suffer strong delusion, because you have no love of truth.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/strong_delusion.htm

God gave us all the free will to choose. Your choice, your fate:

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 9:38pm

Exact opposite of mass murder? Are you sure you are reading the correct Bible Pete?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 11:11pm

freediver wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 11:09am:

Stratos wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 10:41am:

freediver wrote on Feb 8^th, 2014 at 10:04am:

So Gandalf uses a verse where Jesus says two swords is enough, to equate Jesus with Muhammed the warmonger?

Would you prefer the passage where Jesus returns to earth covered in blood and slaughters all of his enemies?

(obviously hasn't happened)

I would prefer Gandalf to suck it up, be objective, and admit that the two are about as diametrically opposed as you can get when it comes to endorsing violence.

I wish gand would stop being so afraid of the truth, and try putting his big boy pants on, and respond to my posts that he ignores left and right. Just the most recent regarding his false accusation against Jesus:
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1390714478/147#147
I labor in reply to him, he ignores. What could be more selfish and inconsiderate in forum citizenship.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 9^th, 2014 at 3:16am

True Colours wrote on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 10:27pm:

Bible says of Anti-Christ:

I dedicated a thread to the subject to help you overcome the spirit of antichrist.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1391788854

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 20^th, 2014 at 10:20pm

This important accusation got sidetracked by another poster and was left unanswered by gand.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1390714478/148#148

Gand, let's get back to your accusation against Jesus Christ, as I believe the contrast might help you see who was behind Muhammad's murder and mass murder of innocents, and thus the futility in your hollow defense of it while continuing to dance around the subject.

You made the accusation in this thread:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 11:39am:

Even Jesus was ordering his disciples to arm themselves and prepare the (violent) defense of the new religion.

You tried to support your accusation by citing Luke 22:35-38, but when it was pointed out to you that in the very verses you cited 2 swords were considered enough for that particular lesson, the support you used for your accusation against Jesus went up in smoke.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1390714478/137#137

I realize that because of the one you follow you feel compelled to drag Jesus down into Muhammad's mud with you, rather than desiring to be lifted up and washed by the blood of the Lamb of God, the Prince of Peace.

Here is IN FACT what Jesus COMMANDED of His disciples:

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment. 31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Your vain desires will not magically make a lie become truth.
Now please either admit your accusation against Jesus, was a patently false accusation, or cite the scriptural evidence that supports your accusation.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 21^st, 2014 at 8:52pm

Gand, would you please either admit your accusation against Jesus, was a patently false accusation, or cite the scriptural evidence that supports your accusation.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 21^st, 2014 at 9:05pm

"Hey Gandalf look at me... won't you pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease look at me!! Oh why won't you look at me Gandalf??!!... waaaah its not fair *sob sob*

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Feb 21^st, 2014 at 9:07pm

I also think it's absurd for you to try to equate Muhammed's and Jesus' approach to violence by citing that verse.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 21^st, 2014 at 9:10pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 21^st, 2014 at 9:05pm:

"Hey Gandalf look at me... won't you pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease look at me!! Oh why won't you look at me Gandalf??!!... waaaah its not fair *sob sob*

It isn't about me gand, but about your accusation.
So you make an accusation against Jesus but don't feel any need to support it?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 21^st, 2014 at 9:27pm

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 21^st, 2014 at 9:10pm:

So you make an accusation against Jesus but don't feel any need to support it?

Already did. You reject my argument but don't bring anything new to the table. Therefore I have nothing to add.

Move on.

freediver wrote on Feb 21^st, 2014 at 9:07pm:

I also think it's absurd for you to try to equate Muhammed's and Jesus' approach to violence by citing that verse.

The verse is widely interpreted amongst christians as justifying violence in self defence. Muhammad only ever ordained violence in self defence. He, like Jesus, is known for a long list of sayings preaching against violence:

Faith is a restraint against all violence, let no Mu’min commit violence

Show Forgiveness and Kindness to Unbelievers & Even Enemies

I found this inscribed on the hilt of the Prophet’s sword, ‘Forgive him who wrongs you; join him who cuts you off; do good to him who does evil to you, and speak the truth although it be against yourself.’

etc etc

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Feb 21^st, 2014 at 9:45pm

Quote:

The verse is widely interpreted amongst christians as justifying violence in self defence.

Like the time Muhamnmed executed 800 Jewish POWs?

Of course Christianity does not command people to allow themselves and others to be slaughtered. Where is the love in that? That is not the same thing as raping and pillaging in the name of religion.

Quote:

Muhammad only ever ordained violence in self defence.

No. He ordained stretching the meaning of self defense to the point where it becomes unrecognisable, in order to justify rape and pillage in the name of Islam.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 21^st, 2014 at 10:02pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 21^st, 2014 at 9:27pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 21^st, 2014 at 9:10pm:

So you make an accusation against Jesus but don't feel any need to support it?

Already did. You reject my argument but don't bring anything new to the table. Therefore I have nothing to add.

Move on.

You did support it? When, when you admitted that 2 swords would not be enough to suggest "Even Jesus was ordering his disciples to arm themselves and prepare the (violent) defense of the new religion."

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 10:18pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 7^th, 2014 at 7:13am:

Obviously not (and by the way, Jesus was arrested by the jewish temple guards - not the Romans). Jesus was meant to be arrested, it was God's plan, so there's obviously no sense in resisting that.

I understood your answer to mean that you believed it to be obvious that Jesus was not commanding his Disciples to "defend His new religion" with two swords.
Nor did you offer further defense of your accusation. If you believe you did, and I missed it, please explain.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 21^st, 2014 at 10:14pm

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 21^st, 2014 at 10:02pm:

2 swords would not be enough

Obviously I reject your interpretation of 2 swords only. "2 swords" is either metaphorical, or referring to 2 swords for everyone (not 2 swords total). Either way, my interpretation has Jesus saying "if you are threatened physically, use swords to defend yourselves".

I'm pretty sure I've covered this before.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 21^st, 2014 at 10:21pm

freediver wrote on Feb 21^st, 2014 at 9:45pm:

Like the time Muhamnmed executed 800 Jewish POWs?

Funny how everyone always misses the obvious fact that Muhammad was the head of an independent state under constant attack, while Jesus was a non-state spiritual leader of 12 people.

Pete:

Quote:

I understood your answer to mean that you believed it to be obvious that Jesus was not commanding his Disciples to "defend His new religion" with two swords.

No, way off. I meant that Jesus didn't want his disciples to "defend Jesus" as he was being arrested. And when you think about it, that itself is "defending his new religion" - since that religion was rather heavilly reliant on Jesus being crucified - right?

The "two swords" command was clearly referring to a time when Jesus would be long dead and buried...then unburied..

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 21^st, 2014 at 10:39pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 21^st, 2014 at 9:27pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 21^st, 2014 at 9:07pm:

I also think it's absurd for you to try to equate Muhammed's and Jesus' approach to violence by citing that verse.

The verse is widely interpreted amongst christians as justifying violence in self defence.

Men have attempted to justify all kinds of things. Once again you are judging the Gospel by the deeds of men, rather than the deeds of men by the Gospel. Violence such as the Roman Church murder of Jew, Muslims AND CHRISTIANS is one of the greatest stumbling blocks for non-Christians to see the Gospel.

The fact is that the very disciples you are saying that Jesus called to violence against others, to defend Christianity, all died REAL martyrs deaths of being murdered purely for their beliefs. Just as those Christians that are being murdered all around the world today, for simply for refusing to renounce Jesus Christ, when it is demanded of them by Muslims.
https://www.google.com/#q=christian+killed+by+muslim+not+renounce+jesus

REAL martyr being one who says "I will die for what I believe"
While a Muslim so-called "martyr" is the opposite - that is being killed inadvertently while killing others - while saying "You will die for what I believe."

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 21^st, 2014 at 9:27pm:

Muhammad only ever ordained violence in self defence.

That is nothing more than an oft repeated lie of Islamic taqiyyah, as proven by the matter of fact historical reality of the aggression of the imperialistic conquest and subjugation of non-Muslims in the Arabian peninsula during Muhammad's lifetime, and near conquest of the whole known world up into France and Austria by his followers in his wake.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm#islamic_first_jihad

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 21^st, 2014 at 9:27pm:

He, like Jesus, is known for a long list of sayings preaching against violence:

Faith is a restraint against all violence, let no Mu’min commit violence

Since I can't imagine you are ignorant to Muhammad's doctrine of abrogation, employed to resolve contradiction, I'll presume your are purveying more taqiyyah:

Surah 2:106 (Asad) Any message which, We annul or consign to oblivion We replace with a better or a similar one. Dost thou not know that God has the power to will anything?
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/abrogation_quran.htm

71 out of only 114 suras are subject to abrogation (al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh). Later suras that call Muhammad's followers to violence against non-Muslims, abrogate the early Mecca drivel (that Muhammad obviously later regretted reciting).
Like this later sura:

Quran Surah 9.29 (113th in order of recitation) Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

That his later Medina commands to imperialistic conquest and violence against non-Muslims abrogate his early more peaceful suras, when Islam lost any pretense of religiosity but became an aggressive, slaughtering, imperialistic political machine.

Sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 21^st, 2014 at 9:27pm:

Show Forgiveness and Kindness to Unbelievers & Even Enemies

Bukhari V4 B52 #261 "...they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes, and they were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina)."

Quran Surah 5:33 The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides,.....

Now there's some real kindness and forgiveness eigh?

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 21^st, 2014 at 9:27pm:

I found this inscribed on the hilt of the Prophet’s sword, ‘Forgive him who wrongs you; join him who cuts you off; do good to him who does evil to you, and speak the truth although it be against yourself.’

etc etc

And the the location of the inscription doesn't communicate anything to you? What did Muhammad do with his sword? Show the handle to those he was vanquishing, through his imperialistic aggression, instead of running them through with it?
Can't even you see the stunning hypocrisy in what you wrote?
Please provide the source of what you quoted.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 21^st, 2014 at 10:50pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 21^st, 2014 at 10:21pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 21^st, 2014 at 9:45pm:

Like the time Muhamnmed executed 800 Jewish POWs?

Funny how everyone always misses the obvious fact that Muhammad was the head of an independent state under constant attack, while Jesus was a non-state spiritual leader of 12 people.

Pete:

Quote:

I understood your answer to mean that you believed it to be obvious that Jesus was not commanding his Disciples to "defend His new religion" with two swords.

That's right. The shed blood of the sacrifice of the Lamb of God is the source of salvation, through remission of sin, for all who have faith in it.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

And the blood of the martyrs has been the seed of Christianity ever since. The more the world sees innocent Christians murdered by Muslims today, the more people come into relationship with Christ Jesus. Christians being murdered purely because of our faith for 2,000 years.

The exact opposite of the lie you continue to attempt to advance against Jesus.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 21^st, 2014 at 10:21pm:

The "two swords" command was clearly referring to a time when Jesus would be long dead and buried...then unburied..

So then you are saying that the 2 swords would be enough to defend Christianity after Jesus was dead?

Then why did the disciples simply submit to being killed? Why do Christians today simply submit to being killed by Muslims for refusing to renounce Jesus when demanded of us?
https://www.google.com/#q=christian+killed+by+muslim+not+renounce+jesus

Your lie remains unsupported.
Please show us where.....

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 11:39am:

Even Jesus was ordering his disciples to arm themselves and prepare the (violent) defense of the new religion.

Where do you find "Jesus was ordering His disciples" to do anything of the kind? As I showed you through the scriptures what He commanded was in fact the exact opposite of what you suggest. For us to love our neighbors as ourselves, and even to love our enemies.

Do you understand why you cannot face the fact that the sinless Messiah - the anointed one - Jesus Christ, and Muhammad were polar opposites?
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm
Do you understand where your compulsion to lie against Jesus continues to come from?
Do you know who the father of lies is?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 12:20am

Pete, the abrogation in the quran schtick is a complete fabrication. I even got Yadda to concede that this was true.

Where abrogation is mentioned in the quran, it does not mean between sections within the quran, but rather between the quran and previous holy books (eg torah)

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 1:39am

I prepared a reply but decided to pull it so as not to distract you from replying to my last post.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 7:56am

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 1:39am:

I prepared a reply but decided to pull it so as not to distract you from replying to my last post.

Why? You just ask the exact same questions I answered already.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Yadda on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 9:20am

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 12:20am:

Pete, the abrogation in the quran schtick is a complete fabrication.

I even got Yadda to concede that this was true.

Where abrogation is mentioned in the quran, it does not mean between sections within the quran, but rather between the quran and previous holy books (eg torah)

No you did not.

No i did not.

link to post ?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 9:25am

Quote:

Funny how everyone always misses the obvious fact that Muhammad was the head of an independent state under constant attack, while Jesus was a non-state spiritual leader of 12 people.

There was no state. There was not even a city. He was trying desperately to gain control of Medina. He talked his way in as a peacemaker then turned into a mass murderer. He had expelled two of the Jewish tribes, and finished the job by slaughtering the last.

And you are completely wrong. That difference between Muhammed and Jesus is not lost on people. It is recognised as one of the biggest problems with Islam. The difference being that rational people don't try to use it to justify or excuse every evil thing Muhammed did. Only Muslims do that, which is of course where the problem begins.

Quote:

Where abrogation is mentioned in the quran, it does not mean between sections within the quran, but rather between the quran and previous holy books (eg torah)

Most other Muslims I have spoken to say it is within the Koran. Or at least, within Muhammed's own life. Not sure if he ordered the abrogated bits out of the Koran. I don't think he did. Muhammed initially presented a far more palatable version of Islam.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 7:40pm

Yadda wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 9:20am:

No you did not.

No i did not.

link to post ?

Here you go Yadda - to be honest I'm not that surprised you forgot about it - as it was a remarkable and rare moment of clarity from you:

Yadda wrote on Dec 16^th, 2012 at 10:59pm:

gandalf,

Thank you for the quote [that you posted] and for the information which it contains.

What it states, makes a lot of sense to me.

Personally i accept that the concept of Koranic 'abrogation' was always a fabricated 'device', which has been used by moslems [and which, imo, was 'manufactured' precisely to be used by moslems], to serve the interests of moslems - at 'this' moment in time.

And i concede that the clerics of all religions have done this.

If they see a 'need', clerics will 'move mountains' try to bend the meaning of scripture, or to give a new interpretation of scripture, which can be fashioned to serve the secular and worldly [but 'righteous'] 'interests', ...of, the clerics.

Politics, even religious politics, is 'a greasy pole'!! ...imo.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 8:01pm

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 9:25am:

Muhammad was invited in as a mediator between two warring tribes, and all tribes pledged loyalty to him through the Constitution of Medina. Through this he became head of a small state.

The very fact that he had supreme command to organise the defenses during the battle of the trench, and that he was able to order the death of the ~600-900 Qurayza is proof enough that he was the established leader of an independent state - as opposed to just one of many warlords muscling his way into a position of strength. The number of companions with Muhammad when he entered Medina was miniscule, and certainly not enough to dictate terms by force. He simply wouldn't have been able to give the orders that he gave if he wasn't the undisputed head of the city.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 8:53pm

Quote:

Muhammad was invited in as a mediator between two warring tribes, and all tribes pledged loyalty to him through the Constitution of Medina. Through this he became head of a small state.

What exactly did they pledge? That Muhammed could openly threaten with death and mock their religion, and they would stand by him while he did so?

Quote:

The very fact that he had supreme command to organise the defenses during the battle of the trench, and that he was able to order the death of the ~600-900 Qurayza is proof enough that he was the established leader of an independent state - as opposed to just one of many warlords muscling his way into a position of strength.

Yes Gandalf. That is how he gained genuine control. He expelled the first two tribes of Jews and killed the third. Then he built a religion around blaming the Jews for their own death.

Quote:

He simply wouldn't have been able to give the orders that he gave if he wasn't the undisputed head of the city.

So killing and expelling everyone who stood in his way proves that no-one disputed his rule and he was not merely trying to "muscle his way" into power?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 8:54pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 12:20am:

Pete, the abrogation in the quran schtick is a complete fabrication. I even got Yadda to concede that this was true.

If you did, it was only by conning him through taqiyyah. But I doubt Yadda is gullible or uninformed enough to buy into your manure.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 12:20am:

Where abrogation is mentioned in the quran, it does not mean between sections within the quran, but rather between the quran and previous holy books (eg torah)

Ha, ha, ha, good one gand. Do you know who the father of lies is? What if you were to die today, while insisting on being in his service? Do you think you would wind up in Muhammad's chicken and wine serving bordello?

You can wish what you say were true, but it can't even begin to explain how Muhammad's post Hijra commands for imperialistic conquest and violence against non-Muslims, can square with his earlier Mecca "no compulsion in religion" drivel. As illustrated in the Quran verse I quoted earlier and confirmed by the following Hadith - and your non-hypocrite brethren. That fact is peace cannot be reconciled with Muhammad's later commands. Peace and Islam are mutually exclusive terms:

Bukhari, V1 B2 #24 Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle.....
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm

That you may choose not to engage in violent jihad and "die with one of the qualities of a hypocrite" is up to you.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm#muslim_hypocrites

http://www.islamreview.com/articles/truefaceprint.htm
"One of Islam's classical reference books, written by a recognized Muslim scholar, deals in great detail with the subject. The title of the book is "al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh" (The Abrogator and the Abrogated) by Abil-Kasim Hibat-Allah Ibn-Salama Abi-Nasr. The book goes through every chapter in the Quran and points in full detail to every verse that has been canceled and what verse replaced it. The author noted that out of 114 Surahs (chapters) of the Quran, there are only 43 Surahs that were not affected by this concept."

From Muslim sources:
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?103174-About-Abrogation-in-the-Quran-%28al-Nasikh-wal-Mansukh%29

http://www.sunnipath.com/library/books/B0040P0021.aspx

http://web.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/ulum_al_quran/Ch5S3.htm

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 9:12pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 8:01pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 9:25am:

What kind of nonsense it that? Hitler and Polpot were heads of states - Muhammad was not. Do you praise Hitler and Polpot, because they were heads of states too?

But let me get this straight. You are saying that Muhammad putting together a couple of lazy caravan plundering thoroughly reprobate bandit tribes, to accomplish the mass murder of 600-900 Jews, and rape of their women and and children and theft of their property, is something Muhammad should be praised for as a good thing? What state did he have? It was a mob of marauding, caravan plundering, little boy beheading, little girl raping mass murdering thieves.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 8:01pm:

The number of companions .......

That is, fellow mass murdering rapist thieves.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 8:01pm:

..... with Muhammad when he entered Medina was miniscule,.....

Indeed. Many of his followers abandoned him after he told his preposterous story about riding around on a flying donkey mule. He was basically laughed out of Mecca, and skulked off with his tail between his legs, shortly after telling that tall tale.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 8:01pm:

..... and certainly not enough to dictate terms by force. He simply wouldn't have been able to give the orders that he gave if he wasn't the undisputed head of the city.

Sure. Everybody democratically elected Muhammad head of the city! Maybe they even gave him a key to the city! Yea, like dat, like dat!
Grow up gand. Muhammad put together two territorial bandit tribes, through the promise of easy riches and all the women they could rape.

Ishaq:204/ Tabari VI:134 "'Men of the Khazraj, do you know what you are pledging yourselves to in swearing allegiance to this man.' 'Yes,' they answered. 'In swearing allegiance to him we are pledging ourselves to wage war against all mankind.'"

Ishaq:475 ".....We obeyed our Prophet's orders when he called us to war. When he called for violent efforts we made them. The Prophet's command is obeyed for he is truly believed. He will give us victory, glory, and a life of ease.

Muhammad the whole time taking his 1/5 cut of the "booty" just like a Mafia Don.

Ishaq:465 "Then the Apostle divided the property, wives, and children of the Qurayza among the Muslims. Allah's Messenger took his fifth of the booty.

He and his fellow cutthroats murdered their way into seizing first the Arabian peninsula, and then nearly the whole known world up into France and Austria, through imperialistic aggression and conquest.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm#islamic_first_jihad

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 9:17pm

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 8:53pm:

Yes Gandalf. That is how he gained genuine control. He expelled the first two tribes of Jews and killed the third.

No it all happened before he expelled anyone.

No doubt all the tribes who accepted Muhammad as their leader and pledged loyalty to him were totally bullied and intimidated by his few dozen companions fleeing their homes and livelihood in Mecca right? :P

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Baronvonrort on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 9:26pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 9:17pm:

No doubt all the tribes who accepted Muhammad as their leader and pledged loyalty to him were totally bullied and intimidated by his few dozen companions fleeing their homes and livelihood in Mecca right? :P

So why do muslims say Mohammad migrated to Medina?

He came back and conquered Mecca, did he destroy and outlaw all other Gods to create the first religious dictatorship in Mecca?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 9:31pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 7:56am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 1:39am:

I prepared a reply but decided to pull it so as not to distract you from replying to my last post.

Why? You just ask the exact same questions I answered already.

You did not answer with support, because you cannot support your filthy bold faced lie against Jesus Christ and the Gospel:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 31^st, 2014 at 11:39am:

Even Jesus was ordering his disciples to arm themselves and prepare the (violent) defense of the new religion.

You could not find anywhere that Jesus ordered His disciples to do such a thing, because your lie comes from straight out of the pit of hell. It is there that you will have to look for it, and indeed some day, that you may well find it. Your lie the exact opposite of what Jesus ordered His disciples to do:

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment. 31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Jhn 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Rather than dragging the sinless Messiah down into the murderers mud with THE false prophet Muhammad and yourself, all you succeeded in doing is dragging yourself further down into it.

Your compulsion to lie and to continue to lie even after your lie was exposed, rather than repent from your lie, is because you follow the father of them, through his messenger Muhammad.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 9:38pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 9:26pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 9:17pm:

So why do muslims say Mohammad migrated to Medina?

He came back and conquered Mecca, did he destroy and outlaw all other Gods to create the first religious dictatorship in Mecca?

They lie about Muhammad getting rid of all the idols, even as they prostrate and pray toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol five times a day, while praying in the "vain repetitions as the heathen do" in the names of the Arabian pagan's deity "Allah" and his "messenger" Muhammad.

They are even compelled to travel to the pagan's black stone idol and kaaba, and march around it, as the Arabian pagans did in moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship before Muhammad was ever born.
http://www.brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm

Even kiss the pagan's black stone idol, while freely admitting that they only reason they do, is because Muhammad did. Yet at the same time they don't get that is the sole reason they do and believe everything related to Islam. Because Muhammad did it, or commanded his followers to do it. Including to DISbelieve the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/

http://ivarfjeld.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/42553621_mashaalap416.jpg

Yet there is not a shred of historical or archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed before pagan immigrants from Yemen settled the area in about the 4th century AD. No Muslim in here can or even tried to deny that fact. This even as other ancient Arabian towns are well attested in the historical and archaeological records.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388067196

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 9:42pm

Quote:

No it all happened before he expelled anyone.

What happened exactly? No Muslim has ever given me a straight answer on this. Did the Jews agree to give up power to a man who openly mocked their religion, claimed to be their prophet, and threatened them? Whatever Muhammed did to talk himself into power, I doubt the Jewish tribes agreed to give him authority to expel them and slaughter them for not bowing down to Muhammed. As soon as he gained enough power, he set about killing anyone who stood in his way. This does not mean he wasn't a complete gentleman before he was in a position to start killing people.

Quote:

Your story Gandalf. Go ahead and tell it. The facts are, the Jews largely rejected his open and even hostile attempts to convert them so Muhammed got rid of them, any way he could, as soon as he was in a position to do so.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 9:53pm

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 8:53pm:

Quote:

Muhammad was invited in as a mediator between two warring tribes, and all tribes pledged loyalty to him through the Constitution of Medina. Through this he became head of a small state.

What exactly did they pledge? That Muhammed could openly threaten with death and mock their religion, and they would stand by him while he did so?

No Muhammad maintained their religion to be inclusive. Those two tribes were heavily into Arabian jinn-devil worship. Idols of Asaf an Naelah, the most venerated priest and pristess of the Arabian jinn religion, were placed on the hills of al-Asafa and al-Marwah. The jinn-devil worshipers compassed the hills 7 times in ritual worship.
I wonder if that ritual sounds familiar to gand?
http://www.brotherpete.com/hajj___umrah.htm#al_safa_al_marwah

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 10:50pm

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 9:42pm:

You tell me FD - how did Muhammad and his merry band of a few dozen destitutes manage to con his way into becoming supreme political and military leader over the whole city - including the powerful jewish tribes?

Were they really that stupid?

Or maybe they actually liked him and believed in his cause? Not the poor schmucks who lost their heads of course - at least not when they decided to conspire against him. But they didn't exactly stand in the way when he was invited and welcomed by all sides to mediate old disputes. Quite the opposite in fact.

The question you should be asking about that though is how Muhammad had such strong backing by all sides when passing judgment on the Qurayza? It seems this wasn't the act that stamped his authority as you insinuate, it was clearly already well and trully stamped before that.

Food for thought.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 11:22pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 10:50pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 9:42pm:

Through the power of the sword. Muhammad attacked the literate, peaceful, faithful, hard working farming community of the Banu Qurayza, because they were everything he was not. He slaughtered the post-pubescent boys, their dads and grandpas, who never struck a blow. Then he and his boys raped & enslaved their little sisters, moms and grandmothers, and stole the fruit of their labor of generations.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 10:50pm:

Were they really that stupid?

Or maybe they actually liked him and believed in his cause? Not the poor schmucks who lost their heads of course -........

Or the "schmuck" little girls that got raped by them, eigh?
http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=coitus&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

I very much appreciate your increasingly wearing the condition of your heart right out there on your sleeve gand.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 10:50pm:

...... at least not when they decided to conspire against him.

That's a modern day lie of rewritten Islamic history.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/zawadi_banu_qurayza.htm

The reason is because they refused to recognize Muhammad as a prophet, because they knew from their books that he couldn't possibly be. The same reason non-Muslims are being murdered all around the world today.

Ishaq:461 "After the siege exhausted and terrorized them, the Jews felt certain that the Apostle would not leave them until he had exterminated them. So they decided to talk to Ka'b Asad. He said, 'People of the Jews, you see what has befallen you. I shall propose three alternatives. Take whichever one you please.' He said, 'Swear allegiance to this man and accept him; for, by Allah, it has become clear to you that he is a prophet sent from Allah. It is he that you used to find mentioned in your scripture book. Then you will be secure in your lives, your property, your children, and your wives.'"

Yahweh's people well understood that following the false prophet Mohammed, would result in a death sentence in the hereafter. They were more than willing to sacrifice their temporal lives in this world rather than abandon our great God Yahweh.

Ishaq:462/Tabari VIII:30 "The Jews said, 'We will never abandon the Torah or exchange it for the Qur'an.' Asad said, 'Since you reject this proposal of mine, then kill your children and your wives and go out to Muhammad and his Companions as men who brandish swords, leaving behind no impediments to worry you. If you die, you shall have left nothing behind; if you win you shall find other women and children.' The Jews replied, 'Why would we kill these poor ones? What would be the good of living after them?'"
http://www.brotherpete.com/banu_qurayza_massacre.htm

Tabari VIII:38 "The Messenger of Allah commanded that all of the Jewish men and boys who had reached puberty should be beheaded. Then the Prophet divided the wealth, wives, and children of the Banu Qurayza Jews among the Muslims."

Abu Dawud 38:4390 Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi: I was among the captives of Banu Qurayza. They (the Companions) examined us, and those who had begun to grow hair (pubes) were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair.

Tabari VIII:35/Ishaq:464 "The Jews were made to come down, and Allah's Messenger imprisoned them. Then the Prophet went out into the marketplace of Medina (it is still its marketplace today), and he had trenches dug in it. He sent for the Jewish men and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in batches. They numbered 800 to 900 boys and men."
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 10:50pm:

But they didn't exactly stand in the way when he was invited and welcomed by all sides to mediate old disputes. Quite the opposite in fact.

The question you should be asking about that though is how Muhammad had such strong backing by all sides when passing judgment on the Qurayza?

The only "strong backing" for the imperialistic aggression, mass murder, prisoner rape and thievery of Islam has ever been, by Satan himself, through the power of the sword. The EXACT OPPOSITE of the Gospel of peace. The "sword of the Spirit" - the Word of God.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 10:50pm:

It seems this wasn't the act that stamped his authority as you insinuate, it was clearly already well and trully stamped before that.

Food for thought.

This is the food you should be thinking about gand:

1Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 11:36pm

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 11:22pm:

This is the food you should be thinking about gand:

Looks scrumptious Pete. I'll have that served up with Karnal's Danish stool. niam niam

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Karnal on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 11:39pm

Man does not live by stool alone, but by the very word of Gud.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 11:42pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 11:36pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 11:22pm:

This is the food you should be thinking about gand:

Looks scrumptious Pete. I'll have that served up with Karnal's Danish stool. niam niam

God gave us all the free will to choose. Your choice, your fate.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Feb 23^rd, 2014 at 8:58am

Quote:

Like I said, he talked his way in, then turned into a mass murderer. When he was weak, he was polite. As soon as he gained any power he turned into a murderous lunatic. He was invited in to end the feuding. He did this by expelling and/or slaughtering all three Jewish tribes so he could turn it into a Muslim stronghold from which to rob and eventually slaughter the Meccans.

Quote:

Were they really that stupid?

Apparently. They stood by and watched as he expelled one Jewish tribe on the weakest of pret-texts. Then another. The last one ended up dead. People fall for this kind of thing occasionally. They don't want the evil to be real, but they allow it to become real. For the most part they were probably just scared, and got taken by surprise. Muhammed was initially seen as an independent between various pagan Arab and Jewish interests. They would not have expected him to so quickly come to represent the interests of everyone but the Jewish tribes, and turn into a murdering thug. It's a typical tale of the rise of poweful warmongerers throughout history, from Gengis Khan to Hitler. The only difference with Muhammed is that instead of realising what an asshole he was after he died, the Arabs went on killing anyone who said he wasn't God's messenger on earth. Kind of like the caged monkeys and the banana trick.

Quote:

Or maybe they actually liked him and believed in his cause?

They didn't. That's why Muhammed slaughtered them. Obviously he didn't kill his own minions. Only the people who stood in his way. Most of the Jews refused to accept as their prophet, despite him politely informing them that he was their prophet and that they would meet a nasty fate if they refused to accept him. He was a hit with the pagans, but not the Jews, so he got rid of the Jews. It really is that simple.

Quote:

Not the poor schmucks who lost their heads of course - at least not when they decided to conspire against him.

Yes, three entire tribes of Jews. All traitors and conspirators.

Quote:

The question you should be asking about that though is how Muhammad had such strong backing by all sides when passing judgment on the Qurayza?

First they came for the Qurayza, and they did nothing about it because they were not a Qurayza. Honestly Gandalf. Abu even boasted about how skillful Muhammed was with the divide and conquer routine. You appear to think it makes him a righteous man. If you sucked it up and were objective, you would admit he was the biggest schemer of all.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 23^rd, 2014 at 9:49am

freediver wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2014 at 8:58am:

He was invited in to end the feuding. He did this by expelling and/or slaughtering all three Jewish tribes so he could turn it into a Muslim stronghold from which to rob and eventually slaughter the Meccans.

Keep it up FD, this is getting hilarious.

He ended the feuding by mediating a peace - and united all the people under the constitution of Medina. He then directed two successful defenses of the city against aggressors - against all the odds. Apparently the Medinese saw something in him, and that seems to have saved them from Meccan aggression. The slaughter of the Qurayza, as well as the expulsion of the other two tribes happened well after these feuds had ended and the Medinese had pledged loyalty to Muhammad.

So please at the very least, get your timeframes sorted.

Also, what slaughter of Meccans are you referring to?

freediver wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2014 at 8:58am:

They didn't. That's why Muhammed slaughtered them. Obviously he didn't kill his own minions.

His "own minions" numbered no more than a few dozen disheveled refugees fleeing their homes. Clearly a great number of the arabs who accepted him in and converted believed something in him - otherwise they could have just booted him out right?

freediver wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2014 at 8:58am:

He was a hit with the pagans, but not the Jews, so he got rid of the Jews. It really is that simple.

yes very simple FD. Except a little while ago you were screaming about how he wasn't a hit with the pagans, and that he slaughtered them all. I think you even mentioned the "g" word (with no evidence of course). Maybe this is like the non-existent slaughter of Meccans you mentioned above. Next week you'll probably be talking about how much of a hit he was with the Meccans (which he was).

freediver wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2014 at 8:58am:

Yes, three entire tribes of Jews. All traitors and conspirators.

Only one tribe lost their heads. There were incidentally about a dozen other tribes that evidently weren't traitors and lived on amongst the muslims.

freediver wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2014 at 8:58am:

Abu even boasted about how skillful Muhammed was with the divide and conquer routine.

I'm guessing, no he didn't - given your track record with "what Abu said".

Quote:

You appear to think it makes him a righteous man. If you sucked it up and were objective, you would admit he was the biggest schemer of all.

I'll be objective and say you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever for your version of history that Muhammad came into Medina with a pre-meditated plan to ethnically cleanse jews and con/terrorise everyone else into submission. The fact that you need to invoke the old "even Abu said" routine as literally the only piece of non-evidence for this story says it all really.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 23^rd, 2014 at 10:50pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 7:40pm:

Yadda wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 9:20am:

No you did not.

No i did not.

link to post ?

Here you go Yadda - to be honest I'm not that surprised you forgot about it - as it was a remarkable and rare moment of clarity from you:

What you really mean is you caught Yadda in a moment of weakness in which he would temporarily swallow your taqiyyah. As I pointed out, your taqiyyah on abrogation is exposed as being exactly that, by many Islamic websites.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1390714478/182#182

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 7:40pm:

Yadda wrote on Dec 16^th, 2012 at 10:59pm:

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Feb 23^rd, 2014 at 10:59pm

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2014 at 10:50pm:

What you really mean is you caught Yadda in a moment of weakness in which he swallowed your taqiyyah.

I know things get pretty heated on this forum, but I'm pretty sure Gandalf was in no physical danger because of his faith.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 23^rd, 2014 at 11:34pm

Stratos wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2014 at 10:59pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2014 at 10:50pm:

What you really mean is you caught Yadda in a moment of weakness in which he swallowed your taqiyyah.

I know things get pretty heated on this forum, but I'm pretty sure Gandalf was in no physical danger because of his faith.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1390996044/15#15

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Feb 24^th, 2014 at 6:50am

Take that stratos - deceived by satan innit.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Feb 24^th, 2014 at 7:37am

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 24^th, 2014 at 6:50am:

Take that stratos - deceived by satan innit.

Well it's either that or I must be an undercover Muslim.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Yadda on Feb 24^th, 2014 at 10:00am

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 7:40pm:

Yadda wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2014 at 9:20am:

No you did not.

No i did not.

link to post ?

Here you go Yadda - to be honest I'm not that surprised you forgot about it - as it was a remarkable and rare moment of clarity from you:

Yadda wrote on Dec 16^th, 2012 at 10:59pm:

gandalf,

Thank you for the link.

And please read my words again, the section that i have highlighted from the link.

Yes, i believe abrogation is false, and abrogation is an intentional falsification which was fabricated by moslems.

[i concede my poor memory, of what i did say]

What i am saying [in the link post] is that Koranic 'abrogation' [in itself] is a fabricated 'device', which was used by moslems, to promote the most advantageous Koranic argument [from available multiple/differing Koranic arguments ], as was convenient to an occasion.

e.g.
And of course, i understand the Koran is perfect and inerrant [i speak as a moslem].

And when i am in an infidel jurisdiction i quote;

"Let there be no compulsion in religion...."
Koran 2.256

...because those words will convey a belief into the heart of the infidel, which is to my advantage and to the advantage of all moslems.

But when i am in an Sharia jurisdiction i abide with [i.e. i live with] [or when i am engaged in Jihad 'operations' against the kuffar, i quote];

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him;...."
Koran 3.85

...because in this place [or during Jihad 'operations'], i am seeking to make the infidel subject to the will of Allah [and subject to my will, as Allah's proxy!].

+++

gandalf,

Why would a body of moslems wish for, or believe that Allah would 'strike out' [abrogate] verses from his inerrant Koran, when their judicious selection and use of a verse, can so effectively disarm and put an [uninformed and naive] infidel 'on the back foot' ?

The example above [the contrast between what is conveyed in Koran 2.256 and Koran 3.85], is the mirror [imo] of the duplicity which is expressed, and which is in accord with 'the spirit' of another Koran verse...

"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?"
Koran 2.106

The Koran does not contain contradictory ideas [i speak as Allah], i [Allah] add a new verse to the Koran as is convenient [for Mohammed's use] for a particular occasion/purpose.

The Koran does not contain contradictory ideas [i speak as a moslem], i [as a moslem] just select the verse from the Koran which is most convenient to this occasion/purpose.

And this duality which is found throughout ISLAM, plainly demonstrates how moslems, can lawfully promote duplicitous views, with one lawful Koranic 'principle' being conveyed for 'this' occasion, with another [and contradictory] lawful Koranic 'principle' being conveyed for 'that' occasion.

+++

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1355591493/0#0

Quote:

I won't concede my 'error' [to you], because as always, we are talking at cross purposes.

You want to highlight the [supposed] error and the 'misunderstanding' of the intricacies of 'abrogation' by a disbeliever.

While i am more interested in exposing the role [the function] which 'abrogation' plays, in determining the nature of the behaviour which moslems engage in, in their ongoing and never ending conflict with disbelievers [...attention to which, is precisely what moslems want avoid].

You want the argument to be about my [supposed] malicious and intentional error [in 'misunderstanding' a virtuous and benign ISLAM].

While i want the argument to be about ISLAM's undeclared [and intentional] malicious intent.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Feb 25^th, 2014 at 3:58am

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 24^th, 2014 at 6:50am:

Take that stratos - deceived by satan innit.

Your seeking comfort with the self-proclaimed Godless is not surprising. Like the "Our prophet, our honour" thread in the upper section that relies on such as atheists, agnostics, communists and an obviously, woefully uninformed, Hindu, that all laud praises on Muhammad. Also no surprise.

Muslims believe in "Allah" and "Shatan".
Satan is the opposer of God. The opposite of God.
Just as Muhammad was the opposite of the sinless Messiah Yeshua.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm
Just as Muhammad's anti-religion is the opposite of the Gospel. A specifically ANTI-Gospel.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/index.htm
Muhammad's anti-religion is specifically ANTICHRIST as defined in scripture.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/islam_is_antichrist.htm
It should be easy for you to see who serve through adopted, adapted and thinly veneered pagan Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship rituals, gand. Through DISbelief in the WHOLE SUBJECT of Gospel.
http://www.brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm
God gave us all the free will to choose. Your choice, your fate.

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 7:27pm

Quote:

He ended the feuding by mediating a peace

Sure. It was peaceful after he slaughtered 800 Jewish POWs. And the people showed him respect.

Quote:

and united all the people under the constitution of Medina

Except those treacherous Jews of course. Except pretty much everyone who would not bow down to him.

Quote:

The slaughter of the Qurayza, as well as the expulsion of the other two tribes happened well after these feuds had ended and the Medinese had pledged loyalty to Muhammad.

And also after Muhammed had started preaching anti-Jewish propaganda in the streets.

Quote:

yes very simple FD. Except a little while ago you were screaming about how he wasn't a hit with the pagans

Good point. He was a hit with some of them. The rest died rather quickly. It basically came down to how successful he was at converting them. When he was having no luck eradicating paganism peacefully, he used the sword.

Quote:

I think you even mentioned the "g" word (with no evidence of course).

There is plenty of evidence of genocide from within Islam. They documented it.

Quote:

Only one tribe lost their heads.

The other two were kicked out. What is your point?

Quote:

There were incidentally about a dozen other tribes that evidently weren't traitors and lived on amongst the muslims.

Muhammed was having more success converting them. He had far less luck with the Jews, so he got rid of them.

Quote:

I'll be objective and say you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever for your version of history that Muhammad came into Medina with a pre-meditated plan to ethnically cleanse jews

I did not say it was pre-meditated. He made it up as he went along. He originally planned for the Jews to convert to Islam. He thought he would be real popular with them. He wasn't. So he got rid of them by whatever means were available.

Quote:

The fact that you need to invoke the old "even Abu said" routine as literally the only piece of non-evidence for this story says it all really.

It is a standard political and military tactic Gandalf. If he did not use it he would be an idiot. Not sure why you would even bother pretending that a guy who slaughtered 800 Jewish POWs in one day would consider divide and conquer to be beneath him. My guess is you are just ignorant of your own religion.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 8:54pm

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 7:27pm:

Sure. It was peaceful after he slaughtered 800 Jewish POWs. And the people showed him respect.

lol no, again timeframes FD. We are talking about before any slaughtering happened. Muhammad was at the time destitute with his tiny band of followers, and the Aws and the Khazraj invited him in to mediate a bitter dispute that was tearing the city apart. Everyone, including the jews were happy to have him, and it paid off since a couple of years later he successfully led the defence against Meccan aggression. All this happened before anyone was kicked out, before anyone was slaughtered.

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 7:27pm:

Naturally. By the way, any progress on that "genocide" of Meccans yet?

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 7:27pm:

Muhammed was having more success converting them. He had far less luck with the Jews, so he got rid of them.

No FD, about a dozen other *JEWISH* tribes - that stayed and lived on with Muhammad. Its said that Muhammad's last order before he died was to repay a jew he owed money to. There was known to be jews amongst the muslim army that captured Jerusalem.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 10:34pm

Quote:

You mean he used the city as a base from which to rob Meccan caravans, then used the city to defend himself against the Meccans when they got pissed off about it?

None of this contradicts my take on the events. Muhammed used politics when he needed to. He slaughtered people when he felt the need. That came later, when he was able to. You don't just start killing people one day then find yourself leading an empire. Not sure why you think this sets Muhammed apart from every other warmonger in history.

Quote:

Naturally. By the way, any progress on that "genocide" of Meccans yet?

Sure. Here you go.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Islam_and_Australian_values#Collective_Punishment.2C_Genocide_and_Ethnic_Cleansing

Quote:

No FD, about a dozen other *JEWISH* tribes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medina

There were three prominent Jewish tribes that inhabited the city into the 7th century AD: the Banu Qaynuqa, the Banu Qurayza, and Banu Nadir.

Surprise, surprise, Muhammed got rid of all three of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_in_Medina

In the course of Muhammad proselytizing in Mecca, he viewed Christians and Jews (both of whom he referred to as "People of the Book") as natural allies, part of the Abrahamic religions, sharing the core principles of his teachings, and anticipated their acceptance and support. Muslims, like Jews, were at that time praying towards Jerusalem. In the Constitution of Medina, Muhammad demanded the Jews' political loyalty in return for religious and cultural autonomy.[6]

The Jewish clans however kept aloof from Islam though in the course of time there were a few converts from them.[7] After his migration to Medina, Muhammad's attitude towards Christians and Jews changed. Norman Stillman states:[8]

During this fateful time, fraught with tension after the Hijra [migration to Medina], when Muhammad encountered contradiction, ridicule and rejection from the Jewish scholars in Medina, he came to adopt a radically more negative view of the people of the Book who had received earlier scriptures. This attitude was already evolving in the third Meccan period as the Prophet became more aware of the antipathy between Jews and Christians and the disagreements and strife amongst members of the same religion. The Qur'an at this time states that it will "relate [correctly] to the Children of Israel most of that about which they differ" (XXVII, 76).

In other words, Muhammed was pissed off that the "treacherous" Jews would not bow down to him. The lucky ones escaped with their life.

Quote:

Its said that Muhammad's last order before he died was to repay a jew he owed money to.

Would that by any chance be the Jew he tortured by lighting a fire on his stomach to get at his Jew gold? Seriously, how far are you willing to go to try to spin this? Would Muhammed only be a bad person if he had slaughtered every Jew he ever came across?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Pete Waldo on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 3:07am

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 10:34pm:

Surprise, surprise, Muhammed got rid of all three of them.

Gand will likely try to explain how privileged the other two tribes were, to be banished into the desert to die, rather than getting their heads cut off.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 8:12am

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 10:34pm:

None of this contradicts my take on the events.

I have shown you multiple contradictions in your story - it took you 3 or 4 replies to finally understand that Muhammad didn't broker the peace after he started expelling and slaughtering jews as you kept trying to claim. Just simple historical facts here FD.

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 10:34pm:

Sure. Here you go.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Islam_and_Australian_values#Collec...

Gee thats great FD - I ask for evidence for a particular genocide of Meccans, and you give me a link about expulsions and killing of jews. Since you are such a connoisseur of wikipedia, why don't you look it up and see if you can find this mysterious Meccan genocide. Actually, save yourself the trouble, because you won't find it, because it didn't exist. When Muhammad conquered Mecca, there were exactly 12 Meccans killed. Probably fewer than that were killed in the raids he conducted on Meccan caravans before that. There was no "genocide" of Meccans like you claimed.

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 10:34pm:

In other words, Muhammed was pissed off that the "treacherous" Jews would not bow down to him. The lucky ones escaped with their life.

As I said, there were about a dozen jewish tribes that remained in Medina until long after Muhammad's death.

freediver wrote on Mar 1^st, 2014 at 10:34pm:

Would that by any chance be the Jew he tortured by lighting a fire on his stomach to get at his Jew gold?

::) even non-muslims with half a brain know that story is fake.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by Stratos on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 8:24am

Pete Waldo wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 3:07am:

Gand will likely try to explain how privileged the other two tribes were, to be banished into the desert to die, rather than getting their heads cut off.

Yeah, only the good religions mercifully kill the babies of their enemies. I wonder increasingly often how you deal with your cognitive dissonance.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 10:53am

Quote:

I never claimed he did. But he did not achieve actual peace in Medina until he expelled the first two Jewish tribes and slaughtered the third. There was something getting in the way of peaceful co-existence. It may have been Muhammed himself preaching anti-Jewish propaganda in the streets and demanding the Jews convert.

Quote:

This is from the paragraph I linked to. You would have had to read fewer words than your rambling response to get to it:

Muhammed "prophesied" the ethnic cleansing of all non-Muslims from the Arabian peninsula by his second successor Umar. He told Umar of this prediction in person. Umar partially fulfilled this prophesy, expelling all non-Muslims from the Hijaz area. Of course, all the non-Muslims brought this upon themselves by breaking covenants with Muhammed, and the harsh punishment was necessitated by the dire threats posed by the Jews and others to the Islamic state, and by the hostility of the Pagans. [118] [119] Muslims will also attempt to pass this off as 'voluntary' conversion to Islam by every single pagan on the peninsula. [120] Christians were also expelled as collective punishment, resulting in the population of a large area (around modern day Saudi Arabia) becoming 100% Muslim. [121] Geopolitical strategy is cited as an excuse for forced relocation from the Arabian peninsula, and Muslims consider that the people involved were lucky not to meet a worse fate. [122] Muhammed used pillage and murder as a form of punishment. Muslims justify Muhammed 'putting down' people by citing later examples where non-Muslims were the perpetrators. [123][124] Muslims will attempt to derail discussing of collective punishment under Muhammed into a debate about the meaning of the term, without offering an alternative meaning. [125]

Quote:

As I said, there were about a dozen jewish tribes that remained in Medina until long after Muhammad's death.

There were three powerful Jewish tribes. Muhammed got rid of all of them, because they didn't fit in with his megalomaniac agenda. He was seeking power, and was deluded enough to think the Jews would hand it to him on a platter because he politely informed them that he was their prophet. They didn't. The lucky ones escaped with their life. That Muhammed left the insignificant tribes alone does not exactly discredit this.

How long after his death did it take before the Muslims got rid of the rest of them?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 4:44pm

freediver wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 10:53am:

This is from the paragraph I linked to. You would have had to read fewer words than your rambling response to get to it:

err.. as I said - a link about expulsions and killing of jews.

Do you know what genocide means? Where was the great Meccan genocide? (hint: nowhere in the wiki passage you linked).

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 5:38pm

Quote:

err.. as I said - a link about expulsions and killing of jews.

Jews, Christians, and Pagans. The word Pagan is mentioned twice within the text I pasted. Much of the discussion in the links is around pagans, and I think it was pagans specifically that Muhammed prophesied would be eradicated.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 7:17pm

There is no reference to a genocide of Meccans. Are you retracting the claim?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 7:34pm

That is where it happened.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 8:03pm

Where FD?

I know you make sh!t up in your wiki, but not even there did you mention it. The word genocide is not even mentioned.The only massacre mentioned is of jews.

Did you get the part about the conquest of Mecca resulting in only 12 people? Is that the genocide you are talking about? Help me out here FD.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 9:23pm

Ah I see. Genocide vs ethnic cleansing. That is what you are getting upset about? Isn't it you who initially brought up the "g word"?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 10:14pm

freediver wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 9:23pm:

Isn't it you who initially brought up the "g word"?

No, you came up with the claim about a Meccan genocide.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 10:22pm

This is the earliest reference I can find to it.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2014 at 9:49am:

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Mar 2^nd, 2014 at 10:36pm

correction: you came up with the claim about a Meccan slaughter:

Quote:

He did this by expelling and/or slaughtering all three Jewish tribes so he could turn it into a Muslim stronghold from which to rob and eventually slaughter the Meccans.

Which "slaughter" of the Meccans are you referring to?

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by freediver on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 8:21pm

Please hold while I gloat for 3 pages about catching you out.

Title: Re: beast, 666, islam, allah, muhammad, qur'an?
Post by gandalf on Mar 3^rd, 2014 at 8:48pm

my you are desperate FD, if that is worth gloating over.

Shall I gloat over catching you out fabricating a non-existent "slaughter" of Meccans?