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Member Run Boards >> Environment >> More global warming madness
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Message started by Innocent bystander on Jan 12th, 2014 at 3:19pm

Title: More global warming madness
Post by Innocent bystander on Jan 12th, 2014 at 3:19pm
Just crazy  :D


ÁGUILAS, Spain — Six years ago, Justo Cruz Rodríguez, who runs a small business here designing signs, was looking for a way to generate a steady, if modest, pension for himself and his father.

So when the government passed a law offering attractive rates for solar energy — and guaranteed them for the next 25 years — he mortgaged his house, his father’s house and even his workshop to install half a dozen rows of solar panels in his father’s garden, with the idea of selling his excess electricity.

“It seemed so safe,” he said recently. “It was a government guarantee.”

But the Spanish government has changed its mind. It plans to pay less, a lot less. Under legislation that goes into effect this year, it will drop its per-kilowatt-hour payment system altogether and effectively impose retroactive cuts in payments. It also plans to make solar power producers pay a charge on electricity they generate and use themselves, a measure that angry protesters have named the “sun tax.”

Spain has good reason for wanting to take action. It is facing a growing deficit — about $40 billion now — because it has never passed on the true cost of producing energy to its consumers, a problem that has ballooned with the economic crisis. If it does not do something, that deficit will only grow, experts say.

Energy experts across Europe are watching Spain’s actions closely, however, wondering if they amount to folly. Thousands of solar energy investors large and small will doubtless face insolvency, and perhaps just as worrisome, experts say, the new charges for those using their own electricity may set off a rush by owners of solar panels to find ways to sell or use their electricity without reliance on the national grid at all, further reducing its customer base.

Nor is Spain’s abrupt U-turn likely to go over well with future investors, experts say.

“When a government changes the terms of existing contracts, that’s a bad move,” said Toby Couture, a solar energy consultant with E3 Analytics in Berlin, who believes that the government will have trouble when it wants to develop public-private partnerships to fund water treatment plants, highways or pipelines, for instance.

“There are reasons we live by contract rules,” he said. “If you keep changing the rules of the game, then, after a while, your friends don’t want to play. The government has lost credibility.”

Spain was once at the forefront of the solar energy movement. It barreled into the renewable-energy business, winning over thousands of investors big and small with its guarantees. Experts say the country has already come close to the European Union’s goal of 20 percent reliance on renewable energy by 2020.

But experts say the government never expected so much investment and never came up with a way of paying for it. When the economic crisis hit, in 2008, and demand for energy went down, the deficit widened at an even faster rate.

Spanish officials say they have no choice now but to reduce the payments, which were once offered to spur investment in solar energy but are now considered overly generous, especially since the cost of solar panels has dropped precipitously in recent years.

The new government payment system has left thousands of investors, like Mr. Cruz, 51, in a state of shock.

“I am going to lose everything,” Mr. Cruz said, standing near the panels he thought would make his old age easier. “I will be homeless. At my age, homeless.”

The government has proposed cuts to other parts of the energy sector as well, and has taken other steps to reduce the energy deficit, including asking Spaniards to pay more for the electricity they use. But no other measures are as drastic as the reduction of payments to the nearly 60,000 producers of solar power, 50,000 of which are small-time investors like Mr. Cruz, according to the Spanish Solar Power Union.



“If we did nothing, the only two alternatives would either be bankruptcy of the system or an increase of the price to consumers of more than 40 percent,” said José Manuel Soria, the minister for industry, energy and tourism, defending the government plans shortly after they were announced last summer.

The government’s plans have prompted angry accusations across the energy sector here. Solar energy producers feel unfairly singled out and say more savings might be squeezed from other electricity producers. Spain’s other energy producers are offering little sympathy.

They say the terms that the Spanish government was offering in 2007 were so good that no one should have expected them to last. “Essentially, these investors were speculators,” said Eduardo Montes, the president of the Spanish Electricity Industry Association, which represents traditional electricity producers. “It was not reasonable to expect it would stay that way.”

Under the new law, instead of the current per-kilowatt-hour fees, the government will offer a formula intended to produce a 7.5 percent return on investment. The problem, experts say, is that the basis for determining that investment is unclear, and the formula looks likely to penalize those who paid more for their equipment, took out big loans or are paying high interest rates. The Solar Power Union estimates a cut in income of 30 percent to 50 percent for producers.


Title: Re: More global warming madness
Post by Innocent bystander on Jan 12th, 2014 at 3:19pm
Already, some investors are turning to the courts. Their lawyers say the original law specifically guaranteed a fee of 58 cents for each kilowatt-hour for the next 25 years and guaranteed 80 percent of that for the years thereafter. It also clearly stated that any future changes could affect only new installations.

“The law was drafted in a very sure way,” said Piet Holtrop, a Barcelona lawyer representing about 1,200 investors, ranging from individuals like Mr. Cruz to small town councils. “The people who invested gave it some thought. They were not just putting their money into anything. It was a sound investment.”

Several large investors have decided to take Spain to the World Bank’s arbitration agency, the International Center for Settlement of Investment Disputes.

Government officials declined to answer questions on the subject. They are being widely criticized for coming up with the new plan without consulting any of the affected parties and for changing their mind about several components in the last few months.

“The government made a bad situation worse by following a process that lacked consultation and transparency and instead created confusion and uncertainty,” said David Robinson, an economist in Madrid who specializes in energy policy and who is a senior research fellow at the Oxford Institute for Energy Studies.

But with a solid majority in Parliament, the government had little trouble getting approval for its main proposals last month, although many details will be clear only when new regulations are published.

Some investors say they will respond to the government’s plan by finding ways to become independent. Diego Nicolas, who owns a car repair business in Murcia and installed solar panels in his garage last year, said that he was considering investing in some wind turbines and a generator and becoming self-sufficient.

“I will be completely independent then, and not subject to their numbers game,” he said.

But that option is not available to Mr. Cruz, whose business has suffered badly in the economic crisis. After the government first reduced his income from the panels in 2010 by capping the amount of electricity it would pay for, he renegotiated the terms of his loans. But he ended up with a higher interest rate and a longer term of repayment. He has already given up any dreams that the panels will contribute to his retirement.

“I can’t go to the bank and say, ‘I am not going to pay you anymore,’ ” he said. “But the government can just do what it likes? That does not seem right to me.”

Title: Re: More global warming madness
Post by Innocent bystander on Jan 12th, 2014 at 4:49pm
Kooky brain dead lefty governments made lots of promises they could never keep, like promising to pay sh#t loads more for horrendously expensive renewables with billions of dollars of tax payers monies in perpetuity LOL.

Who in the F*ck votes for these pea brained idiots  ;D ... I guess theres a few right here on this board  :o

Title: Re: More global warming madness
Post by Deathridesahorse on Jan 12th, 2014 at 5:23pm
I don't vote in Spain!

Title: Re: More global warming madness
Post by muso on Jan 12th, 2014 at 7:59pm
Let me see. The argument is that Left Wing Governments break promises, therefore AGW does not exist?

That arguments is as nutty as a fruit cake, but just as nutritious.

Title: Re: More global warming madness
Post by Deathridesahorse on Jan 12th, 2014 at 8:02pm
The war against children is conducted in the economic sphere: heil globalisms euphemistic 'free-trade'  :o

Title: Re: More global warming madness
Post by Innocent bystander on Jan 12th, 2014 at 8:16pm

muso wrote on Jan 12th, 2014 at 7:59pm:
Let me see. The argument is that Left Wing Governments break promises, therefore AGW does not exist?

That arguments is as nutty as a fruit cake, but just as nutritious.


The argument is renewables are a pipe dream  ;)

Title: Re: More global warming madness
Post by muso on Jan 12th, 2014 at 9:05pm
Renewables are a reality, troll.

Title: Re: More global warming madness
Post by Innocent bystander on Jan 12th, 2014 at 10:23pm
Windmills and solar panels are nothing more than religious artifacts.

Title: Re: More global warming madness
Post by Deathridesahorse on Jan 13th, 2014 at 2:36am

Innocent bystander wrote on Jan 12th, 2014 at 10:23pm:
Windmills and solar panels are nothing more than religious artifacts.

How come?

Title: Re: More global warming madness
Post by Innocent bystander on Jan 13th, 2014 at 11:04am

muso wrote on Jan 12th, 2014 at 9:05pm:
Renewables are a reality, troll.


Actually I'd really like to hear what you think about the collapse of Spains renewable energy program, give it a try.  ;)

Title: Re: More global warming madness
Post by Innocent bystander on Jan 13th, 2014 at 11:11am

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 13th, 2014 at 2:36am:

Innocent bystander wrote on Jan 12th, 2014 at 10:23pm:
Windmills and solar panels are nothing more than religious artifacts.

How come?





Can't you see the similarity's?, both provide a warm fuzzy feeling inside when viewed but have no other real practical purpose apart from giving some a sense of comfort.
The windmills contribution to reducing co2 is microscopic in the scheme of things so the answer is to build more windmills that need yet more subsidies and eventually you reach a critical mass when the free government money runs out about 50 million windmills short of how many you actually need to make a difference.








Title: Re: More global warming madness
Post by Deathridesahorse on Jan 13th, 2014 at 2:41pm

Innocent bystander wrote on Jan 13th, 2014 at 11:11am:

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 13th, 2014 at 2:36am:

Innocent bystander wrote on Jan 12th, 2014 at 10:23pm:
Windmills and solar panels are nothing more than religious artifacts.

How come?





Can't you see the similarity's?, both provide a warm fuzzy feeling inside when viewed but have no other real practical purpose apart from giving some a sense of comfort.
The windmills contribution to reducing co2 is microscopic in the scheme of things so the answer is to build more windmills that need yet more subsidies and eventually you reach a critical mass when the free government money runs out about 50 million windmills short of how many you actually need to make a difference.









Subsidy and economy of scale are curious things. Then you've got r and d..... time is money they say !!!!!!!!!

Title: Re: More global warming madness
Post by Deathridesahorse on Jan 13th, 2014 at 2:43pm

Innocent bystander wrote on Jan 13th, 2014 at 11:04am:

muso wrote on Jan 12th, 2014 at 9:05pm:
Renewables are a reality, troll.


Actually I'd really like to hear what you think about the collapse of Spains renewable energy program, give it a try.  ;)

Hey muso, this blokes just like greggy: a giver of much goose chase!  ::)

Title: Re: More global warming madness
Post by Innocent bystander on Jan 13th, 2014 at 3:13pm

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 13th, 2014 at 2:41pm:

Innocent bystander wrote on Jan 13th, 2014 at 11:11am:

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 13th, 2014 at 2:36am:

Innocent bystander wrote on Jan 12th, 2014 at 10:23pm:
Windmills and solar panels are nothing more than religious artifacts.

How come?





Can't you see the similarity's?, both provide a warm fuzzy feeling inside when viewed but have no other real practical purpose apart from giving some a sense of comfort.
The windmills contribution to reducing co2 is microscopic in the scheme of things so the answer is to build more windmills that need yet more subsidies and eventually you reach a critical mass when the free government money runs out about 50 million windmills short of how many you actually need to make a difference.









Subsidy and economy of scale are curious things. Then you've got r and d..... time is money they say !!!!!!!!!



Jesus christ is it computer hour down at the funny farm again ... for f*cks sake!  ::)

Title: Re: More global warming madness
Post by Innocent bystander on Jan 13th, 2014 at 3:32pm
Ha ha I was going to start a thread about global warming hitting Adelaide but it looks like the insecure climate change groupies that are sick of having their arses kicked all over the board have decided to use censorship to defend their weak position instead of facts.
Man made Climate change is real because I silenced the opposition with censorship ... pathetic.   

Title: Re: More global warming madness
Post by Deathridesahorse on Jan 13th, 2014 at 9:54pm

Innocent bystander wrote on Jan 13th, 2014 at 3:13pm:

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 13th, 2014 at 2:41pm:

Innocent bystander wrote on Jan 13th, 2014 at 11:11am:

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jan 13th, 2014 at 2:36am:

Innocent bystander wrote on Jan 12th, 2014 at 10:23pm:
Windmills and solar panels are nothing more than religious artifacts.

How come?





Can't you see the similarity's?, both provide a warm fuzzy feeling inside when viewed but have no other real practical purpose apart from giving some a sense of comfort.
The windmills contribution to reducing co2 is microscopic in the scheme of things so the answer is to build more windmills that need yet more subsidies and eventually you reach a critical mass when the free government money runs out about 50 million windmills short of how many you actually need to make a difference.









Subsidy and economy of scale are curious things. Then you've got r and d..... time is money they say !!!!!!!!!



Jesus christ is it computer hour down at the funny farm again ... for f*cks sake!  ::)

Libs agree: markets are a euphemism!

Title: Re: More global warming madness
Post by Deathridesahorse on Jan 13th, 2014 at 9:55pm

Innocent bystander wrote on Jan 13th, 2014 at 3:32pm:
Ha ha I was going to start a thread about global warming hitting Adelaide but it looks like the insecure climate change groupies that are sick of having their arses kicked all over the board have decided to use censorship to defend their weak position instead of facts.
Man made Climate change is real because I silenced the opposition with censorship ... pathetic.   

You're so off the planet mate !

Title: Re: More global warming madness
Post by lee on Jan 14th, 2014 at 1:13pm
A new paper in the Journal 'Atmospheric and Climate Science'.

'ABSTRACT

The question whether human activities seriously affect climate is asked with increasing voice these days. Quite understandable since the climate appears to be out of control with the significant global temperature increases already seen during the last three decades and with still heavier temperature increases to come in the future according to prognoses, among others, in the recent comprehensive IPCC reports [1]. However, the most recent climate data [2], show global temperature development levelling off or even turning negative since 2001 in contrast to the anticipated course related to the steady increases in the concentration in the atmosphere of green-house gasses, primarily carbon dioxide and methane [1]. The purpose of this communication is to demonstrate that the reduced rate in the global temperature rise complies with expectations related to the decaying level of solar activity according to the relation published in an earlier analysis [3]. Without the reduction in the solar activity-related contributions the global temperatures would have increased steadily from 1980 to present.'

http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?PaperID=41752#.UtSo8fhM1T8

So higher solar activity doesn't affect Global Warming, but lower solar activity results in an hiatus or even cooling.

Peter Stauning - http://web.dmi.dk/solar-terrestrial/staff/stauning/homepage.html

Title: Re: More global warming madness
Post by Innocent bystander on Jan 14th, 2014 at 6:14pm

Innocent bystander wrote on Jan 13th, 2014 at 11:04am:

muso wrote on Jan 12th, 2014 at 9:05pm:
Renewables are a reality, troll.


Actually I'd really like to hear what you think about the collapse of Spains renewable energy program, give it a try.  ;)




Bump  :)

Title: Re: More global warming madness
Post by Deathridesahorse on Jan 15th, 2014 at 3:47am

Innocent bystander wrote on Jan 14th, 2014 at 6:14pm:

Innocent bystander wrote on Jan 13th, 2014 at 11:04am:

muso wrote on Jan 12th, 2014 at 9:05pm:
Renewables are a reality, troll.


Actually I'd really like to hear what you think about the collapse of Spains renewable energy program, give it a try.  ;)




Bump  :)

Innocent loves little bitty easy stuff and is willing to play a long game to get it it cos BUSINESS IS BUSINESS BRO YA GOTTA BE HARDCORE IN THIS WORLD TO GET WHAT YA WANT AY BRO  ::) LETS GET SOME MORE CRACK AY BRO AND AND AND YA KNO BRO YEHHHHH lololololololita sick world mixed up markets OH BUT FREE MARKETS BRO YEH LIKE OH OH JUST GIT WAT YA WANT BUGGERISE FHE KIDS like who speaks that language but loopers loving 1950s fascist tryhard wannabe wannabes  :-[

Title: Re: More global warming madness
Post by progressiveslol on Jan 15th, 2014 at 6:16am

lee wrote on Jan 14th, 2014 at 1:13pm:
A new paper in the Journal 'Atmospheric and Climate Science'.

'ABSTRACT

The question whether human activities seriously affect climate is asked with increasing voice these days. Quite understandable since the climate appears to be out of control with the significant global temperature increases already seen during the last three decades and with still heavier temperature increases to come in the future according to prognoses, among others, in the recent comprehensive IPCC reports [1]. However, the most recent climate data [2], show global temperature development levelling off or even turning negative since 2001 in contrast to the anticipated course related to the steady increases in the concentration in the atmosphere of green-house gasses, primarily carbon dioxide and methane [1]. The purpose of this communication is to demonstrate that the reduced rate in the global temperature rise complies with expectations related to the decaying level of solar activity according to the relation published in an earlier analysis [3]. Without the reduction in the solar activity-related contributions the global temperatures would have increased steadily from 1980 to present.'

http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?PaperID=41752#.UtSo8fhM1T8

So higher solar activity doesn't affect Global Warming, but lower solar activity results in an hiatus or even cooling.

Peter Stauning - http://web.dmi.dk/solar-terrestrial/staff/stauning/homepage.html

As allways and apt... its the sun stupid  ;)

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