freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2014 at 10:00am:

Can you give more details please?

Why, certainly. (Comet Nicole will return for a fly-by of Planet Earth in a couples of years time to make yet another single post before once again heading for the Outer Solar System in her endless travels).

Meanwhile ...


Quote:

A MAN with an "extremist interpretation of Islam" has lost his appeal against ASIO's assessment that he should be denied Australian citizenship because he was "likely to engage in activities prejudicial to security". The man, whose name has been suppressed, asked the Administrative Appeals Tribunal to overturn ASIO's assessment that his application for Australian citizenship should be rejected because he was a security risk.

Quote:

In evidence, CXQY said he was born a Sunni Muslim and arrived in Australia in 2005 to study and to live in a free, democratic society. He said he applied for citizenship because he had wanted to become a policeman.

link

Question: Why haven't the idiots in charge of national security deported this Muslim yet?

Gandalf do you mind if I start a new thread on that issue?

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2014 at 10:38am:

Gandalf do you mind if I start a new thread on that issue?

As per the riot act:


Quote:

4. Excessive and unnecessary new threads. Generally, if you want to make a post that is relevant to an existing thread, post it in that thread rather than start a new one.

Should be rather self-explanatory.

If its this issue of security and citizenship, the it probably should have its own thread, since we have strayed a long way from the original topic of segregated meetings at universities.

Yes, that's the article Herbert. Good find. :)

Gandalf also posted an article about a woman representing these men. The lawyer said she was not aware of any intention by these men to fight in Syria. The post got lost.

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/asio-acting-to-prevent-australians-fighting-in-syrian-war-is-not-racist-20131209-2z1te.html

So now it has come to this. The Australian Security Intelligence Organisation, headed by David Irvine, has been depicted as ''racist''. Why? Well, because ASIO has acted to prevent young Australian Muslims from travelling to Syria to fight in a civil war against other Muslims. That's why, apparently.

On the weekend, it was reported that ASIO cancelled the passports of about 20 men from western Sydney. Australian intelligence officials believe that they are possessed of a ''jihadi mentality'' and are intent on travelling to Syria ''to engage in politically motivated violence''.

Monday's Herald carried a story that Abu Bakr, a 19-year-old Bankstown labourer, has been identified as one of the Australian citizens against whom ASIO has acted. He accused ASIO of racism. Bakr was subsequently interviewed on ABC radio 702 by Linda Mottram.

It was not Mottram's best interview and she gave the impression that she was avoiding the tough questions. Bakr denied that he wanted to fight in Syria. But he railed against ''killing innocent people, killing babies, killing the children [and] raping our women''. Bakr then declared: ''This is what the Americans and Israelis and the Alawites agree with - but I do not agree with this.''

In Syria, there is overwhelming evidence that children, women and men are being bombed and women raped. Neither the US nor Israel are militarily involved in Syria, which has become essentially a battleground between Shiite and Sunni Muslims.

Syria's ruler, Bashar al-Assad, presides over an Alawite regime. The Alawite religion is a sect of Shiite Islam. In the appalling civil war, Assad has the support of the Shiites - primarily the government of Iran and Hezbollah. The opponents of the Assad regime are primarily Sunni Muslims, including many foreign fighters.

In its 2012-13 report to Parliament, ASIO comments that ''the Syrian conflict has resonated strongly in Australia, partly because of deep familial ties to Lebanon that exist here''. According to ASIO, ''as at 30 June, 2013, four Australians were known to have been killed in Syria''.

ASIO has also commented that a ''byproduct of the Syrian conflict has been sporadic incidents of small-scale communal violence along the line of the Middle East's Sunni-Shi'a divide''.

Bakr may, or may not, want to travel to Syria. But some Australian Muslims have done so. One, from Queensland, became the first known Australian to have taken part in a car bomb murder/suicide attack. He was a Sunni and died while fighting with the al-Qaeda-linked Jabhat al-Nusra terrorist organisation.

The overwhelming majority of Muslims killed or injured over the past two decades have been the victims of other Muslims. The avoidance of this issue makes it possible for the likes of Bakr to present themselves as fighting against Americans or Israelis.

The number of radical Islamists in Australia appears to be relatively small. However, it is not in Australia's national interest that its citizens, however few, become radicalised and skilled with weapons while engaging in civil wars.

Last weekend, police arrested and charged a Sydney disability pensioner with running a complicated scheme to enlist young Australian Muslims to fight with such Islamist terrorist movements as Jabhat al-Nusra against the Assad regime. Such recruitment is common in Europe and North America.

Australians have good reason to appreciate the work of intelligence agencies and Commonwealth, state and territory police to prevent terrorist attacks within Australia. When launching the national security strategy in January, then prime minister Julia Gillard addressed the issue of domestic terrorism. She said ''here, at home, numerous terrorist plots have been thwarted and 23 convictions have resulted from the prosecution of those who planned such attacks''.

In all cases, the accused Islamists were found guilty by juries. All received substantial prison sentences, despite the fact that some came before left-liberal judges. All the major convictions have prevailed when appeals were made. In short, what Gillard referred to were serious unsuccessful plans to kill and injure Australian children, women and men going about their everyday activities.

There is no suggestion that Australian Muslims intent on fighting in Syria want to harm Australia. However, it is believed that about a 10th of Islamists who fight overseas return radicalised to their home country.

In the November issue of Standpoint magazine, Douglas Murray documents how ''moderate movements in Islam have repeatedly lost to the hardliners''. Preventing radicals from fighting overseas is in the interest of the overwhelming majority of moderate Australian Muslims. It's not racist.

@ Herbert:


Quote:

Question: Why haven't the idiots in charge of national security deported this Muslim yet?

Agreed.

Deeper question: how is importing these types beneficial to Australia? What can they do for us, except overload our police, jails, and centrelink offices?

Lord Herbert wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2014 at 10:18am:

freediver wrote on Jan 2nd, 2014 at 10:00am: Can you give more details please? Why, certainly. (Comet Nicole will return for a fly-by of Planet Earth in a couples of years time to make yet another single post before once again heading for the Outer Solar System in her endless travels). Meanwhile ... Quote: A MAN with an "extremist interpretation of Islam" has lost his appeal against ASIO's assessment that he should be denied Australian citizenship because he was "likely to engage in activities prejudicial to security". The man, whose name has been suppressed, asked the Administrative Appeals Tribunal to overturn ASIO's assessment that his application for Australian citizenship should be rejected because he was a security risk. [quote]In evidence, CXQY said he was born a Sunni Muslim and arrived in Australia in 2005 to study and to live in a free, democratic society. He said he applied for citizenship because he had wanted to become a policeman.

link

Question: Why haven't the idiots in charge of national security deported this Muslim yet?[/quote]

Herb, can you post the full article?

Im guessing ASIO are just taking pre emptive actions and mentions that the individual is likely to be a threat to our security.Id like to see more info or facts about the case.

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2014 at 12:42pm:

He accused ASIO of racism.

Perhaps someone should point out to him that Islam is not a race.
It's the direct equivalent of suggesting that being against Nazism, or any other imperialistic power, is racist.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm

Though it should be no surprise that Hitler and the Islamic Mufti of Jerusalem - the Nazis and Muslims - were joined together toward their shared goal of genocide of Jews.
zionismchristian.com/hitler_and_mufti.htm

Sahih Muslim B41, #6981 Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me); kill him. (also #6983 #6984 #6985)

This popular Egyptian TV Imam, is the equivalent of TV preachers like Pat Roberts or Jack Van Impe here in the U.S.:
youtube.com/watch?v=viOfDdkonu8

Let alone that they are joined together unto this day in anti-Zionism, along with David Duke and the KKK, Jeremiah Wright, Muslims from around the world, Louis Farrakan and the "Nation of Islam", and secular groups like communist Soviets, the United Nations, George Soros and his Center for American Progress, white supremacists, Nazis, skinheads, and antisemites of all stripes.
zionismchristian.com/anti_zionism.htm#anti_zionists

Good onya ASIO.

freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2014 at 12:42pm:

There is no suggestion that Australian Muslims intent on fighting in Syria want to harm Australia.

As long as one doesn't think Islamic Sharia law would harm Australia, since that is what the majority of Muslims around the world want.
Though only a tiny minority would need to want that, armed with beheading knives in one hand to modify the views of their peacenick "hypocrite" brethren, while being perfectly supported by the Quran and Hadith in their other hand.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm#muslim_hypocrites


freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2014 at 12:42pm:

However, it is believed that about a 10th of Islamists who fight overseas return radicalised..........

A better term might be something like "fundamentalized", since they return from the cradle of the religion as true Muslims, that GET Islam, and do what they can to do as Muhammad did and commanded his followers to do.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm


freediver wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2014 at 12:42pm:

....... to their home country.

I doubt it matters whether they go overseas or not. I am going to guess that in Australia, like here in the U.S., the Saudis are primarily responsible for financing and building Islamic centers and mosques. Especially on or near college campuses, where heads full of mush are as malleable as Play-Doh, as evidenced by the antisemitism and anti-Zionism that is sweeping across college campuses. The Saudis are exporting Islamic sharia law around the world, where it is rapidly replacing laws of sovereign States, like Nigeria. The Saudis OWN Islam worldwide.

I went to hear a speaker that had infiltrated a mosque in the U.S., at which only about 10% of the women wore head coverings (like in Egypt a half century ago).
An Imam came from Saudi Arabia (in essence an emissary from the true owners of the mosque) and literally lived in the mosque for a week or two (I forgot how long, could even be a month). Shortly after he left only about 10% of the women were not wearing head coverings.

"A large majority of mosques in the United States are led by Wahhabi clerics. Wahhabism is an extreme brand of Islam practiced dominantly in Saudi Arabia. According to Muslim estimates, up to 80 percent of mosques in the U.S. are owned, operated and led by Wahhabis."
clarionproject.org/threat/homegrown-threat/us-mosques

The article incorrectly characterizes true fundamental followers of Muhammad, as peddling "an extreme brand" of Islam. Saudis are Sunni Muslims.
jcpa.org/article/sunni-vs-shiite-in-saudi-arabia/

For pity's sake. The Saudis are the ones that profit, off of the rituals "performed" by the "children of the flesh" at the Kaaba, as Arabian pagan's did before Muhammad was ever born.
brotherpete.com/children_flesh.htm

Mosques are the military headquarters of the aggressive, imperialistic, militant, murderous, cult of Muhammadanism.
youtube.com/watch?v=ujUOZyrnewE

The Saudis OWN Islam worldwide. Thus it is perhaps not a stretch to say they either do, or will, OWN the hearts and minds of Muhammad's followers worldwide.

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2014 at 8:56pm:

I went to hear a speaker that had infiltrated a mosque in the U.S., at which only about 10% of the women wore head coverings (like in Egypt a half century ago). An Imam came from Saudi Arabia (in essence an emissary from the true owners of the mosque) and literally lived in the mosque for a week or two (I forgot how long, could even be a month). Shortly after he left only about 10% of the women were not wearing head coverings.

Whats wrong with women wearing head coverings?

Stratos wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2014 at 10:52pm:

Whats wrong with women wearing head coverings?

The point wasn't about whether women should wear head coverings or not, but that it took the Saudi Imam - the true follower of Muhammad - to spank the western peacenick "hypocrite" mosque attendees into submission.
Just as the same guys built mosques and Islamic centers all around the world, as planning centers for the imperialistic conquest of Islamic Jihad.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/global_war_against_truth.htm#sharia_in_america

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2014 at 11:24pm:

The point wasn't about whether women should wear head coverings or not, but that it took the Saudi Imam - the true follower of Muhammad - to spank the western peacenick "hypocrite" mosque attendees into submission.

Look, sorry if I'm not as easily swayed as you, but i'm really not getting the hats=planning centers for the imperialistic conquest of Islamic Jihad vibe

Stratos wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2014 at 11:30pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 2nd, 2014 at 11:24pm: The point wasn't about whether women should wear head coverings or not, but that it took the Saudi Imam - the true follower of Muhammad - to spank the western peacenick "hypocrite" mosque attendees into submission. Look, sorry if I'm not as easily swayed as you, but i'm really not getting the hats=planning centers for the imperialistic conquest of Islamic Jihad vibe

You aren't getting it because your capacity for critical thought and absence of a love of truth, would seem as compromised as Muhammad's follower's generally is, which leads me increasingly to conclude that you are a follower of Muhammad engaged deep in Islamic taqiyyah/dissimulation or at a minimum as deluded by Muhammadanism as they are.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/strong_delusion.htm

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2014 at 11:35pm:

You aren't getting it because your capacity for critical thought

OK, so lets think critically.  Lets look at the evidence that wearing hats leads to Jihad, which is what you are currently claiming.  In the absence of any evidence, I will rationally agree that there is no link between the two until proven otherwise.

I'm sure you will come up with some excuse as to why there is none or try the change the subject.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2014 at 11:35pm:

conclude that you are a follower of Muhammad engaged deep in Islamic taqiyyah/dissimulation

Never mind that what you are describing is not taqiyya, and are hence not showing a "love of truth", but seriously?  Based on your nonexistant evidence of being what I stand up for I must be an Islamic homosexual refugee.  Again, your thought process is far from rational

Stratos wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2014 at 11:56pm:

OK, so lets think critically.  Lets look at the evidence that wearing hats leads to Jihad, which is what you are currently claiming.

Thank you for so convincingly confirming my my estimation of your participation in this forum, while relieving me of feeling any need to waste any more time with you.

Stratos wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2014 at 11:56pm:

I'm sure you will come up with some excuse as to why there is none or try the change the subject.

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 12:04am:

Thank you for confirming my my estimation of your performance in here while relieving me of feeling any need to waste any more time with you.

Called it

Stratos wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 12:06am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 12:04am: Thank you for confirming my my estimation of your performance in here while relieving me of feeling any need to waste any more time with you. Called it

Thank you! I did indeed!
So why are you so afraid to admit you are a Muslim anyway? Too embarrassed?

Your evidence to support I am a Muslim is as nonexistent as your evidence that hats lead to Jihad.

Stratos wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 12:10am:

Your evidence to support I am a Muslim is as nonexistent as your evidence that hats lead to Jihad.

I don't have any evidence, other than your being perhaps the greatest champion for Muhammadanism, in this forum.
I was simply trying to solicit an honest admission from you. And I didn't notice a denial.

But then since for a Muslim to lie about being a Muslim, and deny it, is of course the most universally accepted form of taqiyyah, or lying in the way of Muhammad's alter-ego "Allah" anyway.
So it would be moot to ask such a question of a Muslim.
Though lying of all kinds is so acceptable throughout the Islamic world today, it really doesn't lend itself to categorization.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/global_war_against_truth.htm#taqiyyah

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 12:17am:

I don't have any evidence, other than your being perhaps the greatest champion for Muhammadanism, in this forum.

Right, so your opinion is formed based on no evidence.  I see.  I have never defended extremism by the way, and you search through my entire history if you like.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 12:17am:

And I didn't notice a denial.

posted yesterday that I am an agnostic.  Not exactly a denial, but enough to know I'm not a Muslim.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 12:17am:

But then since for a Muslim to lie about being a Muslim, and denying it, is of course the most universally accepted form of taqiyyah

Have a look at the Koran passages that the concept of taqiyya is derived from and you will see a very different picture.  It is about hiding your faith to save your skin, and your claim that it is the most universally accepted form is simply incorrect.

Stratos wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 12:26am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 12:17am: I don't have any evidence, other than your being perhaps the greatest champion for Muhammadanism, in this forum. Right, so your opinion is formed based on no evidence.  I see.  I have never defended extremism by the way, ..........

First of all, if you are referring to Muslims that are engaged in the Islamic conquest of the world as being extreme, that is patently false. Those are true fundamental followers of Muhammad, doing as Muhammad did, and commanded his followers to do.
brotherpete.com/jihad_conquest_terrorism.htm

Though no shortage of Muslims are content to leave the heavy lifting of Jihad to their brethren, not having the stomach for it. Muhammad had an answer for those hypocrites too:

Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #216 fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

CNS reports: "Sunni Muslim terrorists committed “about 70 percent” of the 12,533 terrorist murders in the world last year, according to a report by the National Counterterrorism Center (NCTC)."
That's for the year 2011, and that percentage doesn't even include Shiite Muslim terrorist murders. Thus it should be obvious to all non-Muslims, that the world would be largely at peace today, if the followers of Muhammad had not been commanded to "fight and slay" non-Muslims in the "cause" of "Allah".


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 12:17am:

........ and you search through my entire history if you like. Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 12:17am: And I didn't notice a denial. posted yesterday that I am an agnostic.  Not exactly a denial, but enough to know I'm not a Muslim.

Thank you for sparing me having to wonder about it any more. Not that it much matters since you are under the influence of Satan as well. And while you may not believe in Satan, I've every confidence he believes in you, my friend.


Stratos wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 12:26am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 12:17am: But then since for a Muslim to lie about being a Muslim, and denying it, is of course the most universally accepted form of taqiyyah Have a look at the Koran passages that the concept of taqiyya is derived from and you will see a very different picture.  It is about hiding your faith to save your skin, and your claim that it is the most universally accepted form is simply incorrect.

Again demonstrating that you are just as disconnected from reality as Muhammad's followers are.
Like when Muhammad's dissimulators pretend that Psalms 84 is a reference to God's people wandering across 1200 kilometers of harsh barren desert - over a thousand years before a caravan route was established along the Red Sea and a couple thousand years before Mecca was established - to march around the Quraish pagan's black stone idol a few times, and then wander the 1200 kilometers back home.

The liars for Islam are so overt, that no matter how many times the location pin "in Zion" is edited back into the Psalms 84 passage that they lie about, they edit the truth right back out and continue pretending it is about Mecca!
This particular lie isn't some random guys, but comes directly from the buffoonery of Islam's Greek sophist styled entertainers and lying antichrists like Ahmed Deedat and Yusuf Estes.

I offered the link to you by way of explanation, as to the free-for-all of lying in the way of "Allah", Muhammadans are actually engaged in:
falseprophetmuhammad.com/global_war_against_truth.htm#taqiyyah

Do you always try to change the subject when you are wrong?  Because unless you can prove hats are a slippery slope to jihad you still are.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 12:45am:

Again demonstrating that you are just as disconnected from reality as Muhammad's followers are. Like when they pretend that Psalms 84 is a reference to God's people wandering across 1200 kilometers of harsh barren desert - over a thousand years before a caravan route was established along the Red Sea and a couple thousand years before Mecca was established - to march around the Quraish pagan's black stone idol a few times, and then wander the 1200 kilometers back home. The liars for Islam are so overt, that no matter how many times the location pin "in Zion" is edited back into the passage that they lie about, they edit the truth right back out. This is rooted in the buffoonery of Greek sophist styled entertainers like Ahmed Deedat and Yusuf Ali. I offered the link to you by way of explanation as to the free-for-all of lying Muhammadans are engaged in:

How the hell is this relevant?  Taqiyya is not in any way what you are describing, look up the verses it comes from!  Or maybe you are being intentionally deceiving again, trying to change the subject away from your incorrect conclusions?

Stratos wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 12:52am:

Do you always try to change the subject when you are wrong?  Because unless you can prove hats are a slippery slope to jihad you still are.

Repeating your false premise, only further confirms that your reading and comprehension skills are considerably compromised.
Your false premise is how you demonstrated your critical thinking skills to be inadequate, through your abject failure to understand a simple post. Why don't you try reading the post again, and honestly try to understand the point that it is actually making?
ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388621936/11#11

While you're at it, why don't you visit my prior post that you snatched that little piece of, and instead of running away from the content, actually try a paragraph by paragraph exegesis of it? Which was, of course, where the point was made and supported initially.
ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388621936/9#9


Stratos wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 12:52am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 12:45am: Again demonstrating that you are just as disconnected from reality as Muhammad's followers are. Like when they pretend that Psalms 84 is a reference to God's people wandering across 1200 kilometers of harsh barren desert - over a thousand years before a caravan route was established along the Red Sea and a couple thousand years before Mecca was established - to march around the Quraish pagan's black stone idol a few times, and then wander the 1200 kilometers back home. The liars for Islam are so overt, that no matter how many times the location pin "in Zion" is edited back into the passage that they lie about, they edit the truth right back out. This is rooted in the buffoonery of Greek sophist styled entertainers like Ahmed Deedat and Yusuf Ali. I offered the link to you by way of explanation as to the free-for-all of lying Muhammadans are engaged in: How the hell is this relevant?  Taqiyya is not in any way what you are describing, look up the verses it comes from!  Or maybe you are being intentionally deceiving again, trying to change the subject away from your incorrect conclusions?

I don't need to insist on the Arabic term "taqiyyah", since the terms "dissimulation" and "lying" are just as descriptive of the REALITY, and thus just as acceptable to me.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/global_war_against_truth.htm#taqiyyah

Removed post so it wouldn't distract.

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 1:08am:

Repeating your false premise, only further confirms that your reading and comprehension skills are considerably compromised.

You made an unsubstantiated claim, I questioned it, then you said


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2014 at 11:35pm:

You aren't getting it because your capacity for critical thought and absence of a love of truth, would seem as compromised as Muhammad's follower's generally is, which leads me increasingly to conclude that you are a follower of Muhammad engaged deep in Islamic taqiyyah/dissimulation or at a minimum as deluded by Muhammadanism as they are.

So back to my original point, what is your problem with head coverings, seeing as an undercover agent in a mosque decided that was damning evidence for some reason, and you felt so outraged about it that you posted it on an internet forum in bold no less like it was some kind of revelation..


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 1:08am:

I don't need to insist on the Arabic term "taqiyyah", since the terms "dissimulation" and "lying" are just as descriptive of the REALITY, and thus just as acceptable to me.

so now you are ignoring the Koran, making another of your arguments hypocritical.  Are you now arguing that people are lying and deceiving regardless of what the Koran states?  Because it definitely does not state that taqiyya is how you are describing it, not even close.

I wonder why you are so willing to use the Koran as damning evidence when it suits you, and ignore it when it suits you too.

Oh that's right, it's because your views are blatantly bigoted towards Muslims.

Stratos wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 1:33am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 1:08am: Repeating your false premise, only further confirms that your reading and comprehension skills are considerably compromised. You made an unsubstantiated claim, I questioned it.........

No, you created a claim, and assigned it to me:


Stratos wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2014 at 11:56pm:

OK, so lets think critically.  Lets look at the evidence that wearing hats leads to Jihad, which is what you are currently claiming.

Now this is very important for you, since it could help you gain some insight into your dysfunction and self-deception, and perhaps begin to find the road to recovery.

Please copy and paste where I was "currently claiming", or made the claim at any time, "that wearing hats leads to Jihad".
Please also include a link to the post in which I made that claim.

You said in reference to people wearing head covering, (don't know how to link posts, so I'll do the whole thing)


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2014 at 11:24pm:

Stratos wrote on Jan 2nd, 2014 at 10:52pm: Whats wrong with women wearing head coverings? The point wasn't about whether women should wear head coverings or not, but that it took the Saudi Imam - the true follower of Muhammad - to spank the western peacenick "hypocrite" mosque attendees into submission. Just as the same guys built mosques and Islamic centers all around the world, as planning centers for the imperialistic conquest of Islamic Jihad. falseprophetmuhammad.com/global_war_against_truth.htm#sharia_in_america

Linking an increase is head coverings to Islamic Jihad through the people who are behind the increase.  If an increase of hat devotees is the best evidence, then that is pretty shonky indeed

Oh, you still haven't said what your problem with head coverings is by the way.

Stratos wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 2:03am:

You said in reference to people wearing head covering, (don't know how to link posts, so I'll do the whole thing) Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 2nd, 2014 at 11:24pm: Stratos wrote on Jan 2nd, 2014 at 10:52pm: Whats wrong with women wearing head coverings? The point wasn't about whether women should wear head coverings or not, but that it took the Saudi Imam - the true follower of Muhammad - to spank the western peacenick "hypocrite" mosque attendees into submission. Just as the same guys built mosques and Islamic centers all around the world, as planning centers for the imperialistic conquest of Islamic Jihad. falseprophetmuhammad.com/global_war_against_truth.htm#sharia_in_america Linking an increase is head coverings to Islamic Jihad through the people who are behind the increase.  If an increase of hat devotees is the best evidence, then that is pretty shonky indeed Oh, you still haven't said what your problem with head coverings is by the way.

Try it again. Now this is very important for you, since it could help you gain some insight into your dysfunction and self-deception, and perhaps begin to find the road to recovery.

Please copy and paste where I was "currently claiming", or made the claim at any time, "that wearing hats leads to Jihad".
Please also include a link to the post in which I made that claim.

You see, what you posted in reply only further confirmed your incapacity for critical thought, rather than providing a substantive response to my request. Where did I make the claim that you falsely attributed to me?

Hilarious. 

In consecutive sentences you say that the head covering wearing is linked to Saudi Imana, and then say that "Just as the same guys built mosques and Islamic centers all around the world, as planning centers for the imperialistic conquest of Islamic Jihad."  and somehow you can't see the link between the two?

Also when I questioned the link between the two in my original post, you disagreed with me,


Quote:

You aren't getting it because your capacity for critical thought and absence of a love of truth, would seem as compromised as Muhammad's follower's generally is, which leads me increasingly to conclude that you are a follower of Muhammad engaged deep in Islamic taqiyyah/dissimulation or at a minimum as deluded by Muhammadanism as they are.

Also, how about you address the other questions at hand you are ignoring:

What is wrong with headscarves?
Why is your definition about taqiyya incorrect as it appears in the Koran?

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2014 at 8:56pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 2nd, 2014 at 12:42pm: There is no suggestion that Australian Muslims intent on fighting in Syria want to harm Australia. As long as one doesn't think Islamic Sharia law would harm Australia, since that is what the majority of Muslims around the world want. Though only a tiny minority would need to want that, armed with beheading knives in one hand to modify the views of their peacenick "hypocrite" brethren, while being perfectly supported by the Quran and Hadith in their other hand. falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm#muslim_hypocrites freediver wrote on Jan 2nd, 2014 at 12:42pm: However, it is believed that about a 10th of Islamists who fight overseas return radicalised.......... A better term might be something like "fundamentalized", since they return from the cradle of the religion as true Muslims, that GET Islam, and do what they can to do as Muhammad did and commanded his followers to do. falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm freediver wrote on Jan 2nd, 2014 at 12:42pm: ....... to their home country. I doubt it matters whether they go overseas or not. I am going to guess that in Australia, like here in the U.S., the Saudis are primarily responsible for financing and building Islamic centers and mosques. Especially on or near college campuses, where heads full of mush are as malleable as Play-Doh, as evidenced by the antisemitism and anti-Zionism that is sweeping across college campuses. The Saudis are exporting Islamic sharia law around the world, where it is rapidly replacing laws of sovereign States, like Nigeria. The Saudis OWN Islam worldwide. I went to hear a speaker that had infiltrated a mosque in the U.S., at which only about 10% of the women wore head coverings (like in Egypt a half century ago). An Imam came from Saudi Arabia (in essence an emissary from the true owners of the mosque) and literally lived in the mosque for a week or two (I forgot how long, could even be a month). Shortly after he left only about 10% of the women were not wearing head coverings. "A large majority of mosques in the United States are led by Wahhabi clerics. Wahhabism is an extreme brand of Islam practiced dominantly in Saudi Arabia. According to Muslim estimates, up to 80 percent of mosques in the U.S. are owned, operated and led by Wahhabis." clarionproject.org/threat/homegrown-threat/us-mosques The article incorrectly characterizes true fundamental followers of Muhammad, as peddling "an extreme brand" of Islam. Saudis are Sunni Muslims. jcpa.org/article/sunni-vs-shiite-in-saudi-arabia/ For pity's sake. The Saudis are the ones that profit, off of the rituals "performed" by the "children of the flesh" at the Kaaba, as Arabian pagan's did before Muhammad was ever born. brotherpete.com/children_flesh.htm Mosques are the military headquarters of the aggressive, imperialistic, militant, murderous, cult of Muhammadanism. youtube.com/watch?v=ujUOZyrnewE The Saudis OWN Islam worldwide. Thus it is perhaps not a stretch to say they either do, or will, OWN the hearts and minds of Muhammad's followers worldwide.

Since your not from Australia and don't know about aussie muslims, australain muslims have very little connection with saudia. Saudia has very little control or influence on aussie muslims.

Saudia Arabia has invested some money in a few schools but all the mosques are independent and are funded by the local community and run usually by volunteers.

If saudia ceased to exist tomorrow everything will just run as normal.

Stratos wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 5:26am:

Hilarious.  In consecutive sentences you say that the head covering wearing is linked to Saudi Imana, and then say that "Just as the same guys built mosques and Islamic centers all around the world, as planning centers for the imperialistic conquest of Islamic Jihad."  and somehow you can't see the link between the two? Also when I questioned the link between the two in my original post, you disagreed with me,

Ho hum. You see, whether you lie with willful intent, or through negligence or carelessness or even through misunderstanding, doesn't make the lie any less of a lie.

Why not try an answer this time? This is very important for you, since it could help you gain some insight into your dysfunction and self-deception, and perhaps begin to find the road to recovery.

Please copy and paste where I was "currently claiming", or made the claim at any time, "that wearing hats leads to Jihad".
Please also include a link to the post in which I made that claim.

Again, where did I make the claim that you falsely attributed to me?

I've shown you twice, and you are refusing to answer questions again. 

Or do you only deal in exact wordings now? 

Why the F do Muslim woman wear head coverings? I know we've talked about it a million times but I still just don't understand.

So they don't get raped.

Sparky wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 8:50am:

Why the F do Muslim woman wear head coverings? I know we've talked about it a million times but I still just don't understand.

who cares if they do.I wouldn't care two stuffs if a hindu wears a turban or a jew wears a skull cap.

Headscarves in Australia bring terrorism and sharia closer to home Wally - apparently.  :P

wally1 wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 10:32am:

Sparky wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 8:50am: Why the F do Muslim woman wear head coverings? I know we've talked about it a million times but I still just don't understand. who cares if they do.I wouldn't care two stuffs if a hindu wears a turban or a jew wears a skull cap.

I'll ask again. Why? I honestly want to know.

to show she is different.
It's a Mozzie woman's way of saying, 'look at moi, Kimmy, look at moi, I have two words for you, Kimmy, two words: allahu akhbar!'

Sparky wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 12:57pm:

wally1 wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 10:32am: Sparky wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 8:50am: Why the F do Muslim woman wear head coverings? I know we've talked about it a million times but I still just don't understand. who cares if they do.I wouldn't care two stuffs if a hindu wears a turban or a jew wears a skull cap. I'll ask again. Why? I honestly want to know.

A couple of days ago you said that muslims wont follow christinaity and that Christianity wont follow islam.

So them whats the issue if muslims want to cover there head?

Do they impact on your life, family or weekly pay cheque?

Sparky wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 12:57pm:

I'll ask again. Why? I honestly want to know.

Most muslims believe that the quran commands women to wear it.

wally1 wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 2:14pm:

So them whats the issue if muslims want to cover there head? Do they impact on your life, family or weekly pay cheque?

So what's the issue with some cartoons in a Danish newspaper?
What's the issue with an English novelist writing about the Satanic Verses?
What's the issue with an American making a silly video about Mohammed?


Do they impact on your life, family or weekly pay cheque?

Yet Muslims, whose life, family or weekly pay were untouched by all these events went on the rampage across the world, rioting, burning, killing.

WTF!!!!

DO you HAVE to be a hypochrite to be a Muslim?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 2:29pm:

Sparky wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 12:57pm: I'll ask again. Why? I honestly want to know. Most muslims believe that the quran commands women to wear it.

But as all the sophisticated (ahem!)  Muslim like you know full well, it does not.

Leaves you in a moral bind, doesn't it?

Stratos wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 8:36am:

I've shown you twice, and you are refusing to answer questions again.  Or do you only deal in exact wordings now?

It isn't about exact wording. It is about your creating a preposterous claim, and then falsely attributing it to me as if I had made the claim, as a result of your dysfunction.


Stratos wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2014 at 11:56pm:

OK, so lets think critically.  Lets look at the evidence that wearing hats leads to Jihad, which is what you are currently claiming.

It is about this lie you told. And no, I will not allow you to distract our conversation with another subject, until I finish helping you see what you did. Since other forum members complain about your antics as well, I felt it was about time that someone took you out to the woodshed and gave you a good sound paddling.

First, would a person with sound cognitive function, and a capacity for critical thought, believe that ANYBODY would CLAIM that ".....that wearing hats leads to Jihad....."?
To a rational person the answer would obviously be no, and thus they would know before they lied, that it would be a bold faced lie, to declare that another person actually made that claim.

This even after you had been exposed to post after post in this forum, in which the CLAIM that I have actually made is that Muhammad through the Quran and Hadith is responsible for the imperialistic conquest of Islamic Jihad that is binding on Muhammad's true followers, and I supported my claims with the Quran and Hadith. My claims are further confirmed by 1400 years of Islamic history, including Muhammad's First Jihad conquering of nearly the whole of the Arabia during his lifetime, and his followers conquest of nearly the whole known world all the way up into France and Austria. My claims are also confirmed by over 22,000 deadly Islamic terror attacks around the world just since 9-11, and the fact that Sunni Muslim terrorists committed “about 70 percent” of the 12,533 terrorist murders in 2011, according to the National Counterterrorism Center (NCTC). My claims are further confirmed straight from the mouths of a vast number, if not a majority, of Islamic Imams and Muftis all around the world today.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm

Coupled with the fact that Muslims are responsible for the vast majority of the 100,000 to 180,000 Christians martyred around the world every year.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/muslim_persecution_of_christians.htm

Along with the misery of 1400 years of Islamic slavery and dhimmitude that continues unto this day.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/islamic_slavery_dhimmitude.htm

Yet after all that, you took a small part of a post and removed it from context, created a preposterous claim that was completely contrary to the context of the post, and then lied about it being my claim. Your preposterous claim assigned to me being: ".....that wearing hats leads to Jihad, which is what you are currently claiming."

Now a rational person - even if they had not been engaged in many prior post exchanges with me as you have - even solely on the basis of that single post would conclude that I actually claim, that Saudi clerics are responsible spreading Islamic Jihad around the world, as Muhammad commanded. Simply Google - Dispatches: Undercover Mosque

You suffer the dysfunction of denial of simple objective reality. But you even went far beyond that to lie about me.

Now let's consider the post again, but as a person with a normal cognitive function would:
ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388621936/9#9

The first paragraph indicates that a majority of Muslims are in favor of Islamic sharia law as the law of the land (wherever they live).

The second paragraph regards Muslims that return from the cradle of Islam "fundamentalized", that now GET Islam, and understand it is their duty to engage in imperialistic conquest and subjugation of others to Islam.

The third recognized that Saudis are responsible for financing the majority of Islamic centers and mosques in the U.S., and by extension, the world.

The fifth paragraph quoted: "According to Muslim estimates, up to 80 percent of mosques in the U.S. are owned, operated and led by Wahhabis."

Now back in the fourth paragraph it indicated that when Saudis eventually visit the mosques that western dupes construct for them they "fundamentalize" the congregation. The fact that the women went from 90% not wearing head coverings to 90% wearing head coverings was one outward manifestations of the rapidly fundamentalized congregation.

So, would a rational person with normal cognitive function and a capacity for critical thought conclude that I was making the claim that:

1. It is Islam itself, the Quran and Hadith, Islam's Imams and Muftis and true Muslims that do as Muhammad did and commanded his people to do are responsible for Islamic Jihad, as confirmed by 1400 years of history and the murder, mayhem and misery spread around the world by Islam today?

Or that based on the evidence I claim that:

2. "Lets look at the evidence that wearing hats leads to Jihad, which is what you are currently claiming."

Which do you think a person with normal cognitive function, and even the most minute capacity for critical thought, would suggest that I actually claim?

Dear oh dear, more misleading statements that aren't even relevant now.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 11:34pm:

Coupled with the fact that Muslims are responsible for the vast majority of the 100,000 to 180,000 Christians martyred around the world every year.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24864587


Quote:

More than four million are estimated to have been killed in that war between 2000 and 2010, and CSGC counts 900,000 of them - or 20% - as martyrs. Over 10 years, that averages out at 90,000 per year. So when you hear that 100,000 Christians are dying for their faith, you need to keep in mind that the vast majority - 90,000 - are people who were killed in DR Congo. This means we can say right away that the internet rumours of Muslims being behind the killing of 100,000 Christian martyrs are nonsense. The DRC is a Christian country. In the civil war, Christians were killing Christians.

Stratos wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 11:42pm:

Dear oh dear, more misleading statements that aren't even relevant now. Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 11:34pm: Coupled with the fact that Muslims are responsible for the vast majority of the 100,000 to 180,000 Christians martyred around the world every year. Quote: More than four million are estimated to have been killed in that war between 2000 and 2010, and CSGC counts 900,000 of them - or 20% - as martyrs. Over 10 years, that averages out at 90,000 per year. So when you hear that 100,000 Christians are dying for their faith, you need to keep in mind that the vast majority - 90,000 - are people who were killed in DR Congo. This means we can say right away that the internet rumours of Muslims being behind the killing of 100,000 Christian martyrs are nonsense. The DRC is a Christian country. In the civil war, Christians were killing Christians.

Why not try an answer this time? So, would a rational person with normal cognitive function and a capacity for critical thought conclude that I was making the claim that:

1. It is Islam itself, the Quran and Hadith, Islam's Imams and Muftis and true Muslims that do as Muhammad did and commanded his people to do are responsible for Islamic Jihad, as confirmed by 1400 years of history and the murder, mayhem and misery spread around the world by Islam today?

Or that based on the evidence that I claim:

2. "Lets look at the evidence that wearing hats leads to Jihad, which is what you are currently claiming."

Which do you think that a sane and rational person with normal cognitive function, and even the most minute capacity for critical thought, would suggest that I actually claim?

Your main piece of evidence was an increase in headscarves, and then said that the centers were being set up as planning centers for the imperialistic conquest of Islamic Jihad by the same people who caused the increase in headscarf wearing.  You may have other evidence to support it, but you decided to use head coverings for some reason.

i said I didn't see a correlation between headscarves and militant Jihad.  You said I couldn't' see it because quote "You aren't getting it because your capacity for critical thought and absence of a love of truth". 

Ironic seeing as you have already been misleading about what taqiyya is, and in your previous post about martyrs is also falsified or incorrect, as you try and score points against Islam with the spilled blood of your own brothers and sisters in Christ. 

Ye Gods!  ;D

Stratos wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 11:56pm:

Your main piece of evidence was an increase in headscarves, ........

And there it is for all to see. Complete cognitive dysfunction.


Stratos wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 11:56pm:

........ and then said that the centers were being set up as planning centers for the imperialistic conquest of Islamic Jihad by the same people who caused the increase in headscarf wearing.

Which is easily recognized in a review of ALL the EVIDENCE, for sane and rational people, that haven't divorced themselves from objective reality.
For those that don't share Stratos dysfunction, a good primer on fundamentalization is: Dispatches: Undercover Mosque, in which they show Saudi Imams preaching directly into English mosques streaming on TV.

Memri TV includes lots of videos that expose the true hearts and minds of Imams and Muftis throughout the Middle East cradle of Muhammadanism, when they are addressing their congregations in Arabic, regarding true fundamental Muslim's duty of violent Jihad.
Here's a popular Egyptian TV Imam for example:

youtube.com/watch?v=viOfDdkonu8

Of course teaching straight from Islamic texts that inspire the imperialistic conquest of Islamic Jihad and lust for genocide:

Sahih Muslim B41, #6981 Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me); kill him. (also #6983 #6984 #6985)

Just as Muhammad himself engaged in:
brotherpete.com/banu_qurayza_massacre.htm


Stratos wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 11:56pm:

You may have other evidence to support it, but you decided to use head coverings for some reason.

No I used head coverings for ONE reason, that you removed from context, and assigned to it your ridiculous notion that was completely divorced from the context of the post.

And now you go from lying by assigning false claims to me, to actually believing through your dysfunction, that you could know my decision making process.
Just another lie since I KNOW I DECIDED to support it with a wealth of evidence, as I have throughout my posting history in this forum.

I have never chatted with someone who could so, quite literally, be described as the devil's advocate. Even as atheists, and agnostics like you are #2 on their hit list!


Stratos wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 11:56pm:

i said I didn't see a correlation between headscarves and militant Jihad.

Exactly. It is your incapacity to think critically, that prevented you from understanding, within the whole context of the post.
Then you assigned to me your own failure to read and comprehend, as being a claim that I made, that hats lead to Jihad.


Stratos wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 11:56pm:

You said I couldn't' see it because quote "You aren't getting it because your capacity for critical thought and absence of a love of truth".

That is correct. And perhaps even more so from your having divorced your intellect from objective reality.


Stratos wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 11:56pm:

Ironic seeing as you have already been misleading about what taqiyya is, ...........

I used the Arabic term "taqiyyah" as a friendly substitute for Islamic "lying" and "dissimulation". You can WISH it were practiced, any way you desire it was, but that isn't the reality. I present it in a manner that should be understandable to any rational person, through the buffoonery of popular Greek sophist styled entertainers and lying antichrists like Ahmed Deedat and Yusuf Estes:
falseprophetmuhammad.com/global_war_against_truth.htm#taqiyyah


Stratos wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 11:56pm:

........... and in your previous post about martyrs is also falsified or incorrect, as you try and score points against Islam with the spilled blood of your own brothers and sisters in Christ.

Why would anyone expect an antichrist to honestly investigate the Islamic slaughter of Christians (and others) all around the world?

From the Hoover Institute: "Few people realize that we are today living through the largest persecution of Christians in history, worse even than the famous attacks under ancient Roman emperors like Diocletian and Nero. Estimates of the numbers of Christians under assault range from 100-200 million. According to one estimate, a Christian is martyred every five minutes. And most of this persecution is taking place at the hands of Muslims. Of the top fifty countries persecuting Christians, forty-two have either a Muslim majority or have sizeable Muslim populations."

And if I'm not mistaken, this may be the second time I have pointed out to you, that you argue like a holocaust denying reprobate. That is, that it is the number of killed that should be focused on, rather than the matter of fact that the murder is taking place, and exactly what is behind it.

As far as location goes, visit this link to what is going on in Nigeria:
nigeriacalabash.com/content/attack-christians-11-2011

Scroll down to the bottom of the page at religionofpeace.com for a meticulously detailed log of the Islamic murder of non-Muslims as well as their fellow Muslims that they consider incorrect, and where it is taking place.
thereligionofpeace.com

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 1:02am:

That is, that it is the number of killed that should be focused on, rather than the matter of fact that the murder is taking place, and exactly what is behind it.

You know i never disputed the number actually, I disputed your claim that was:


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 11:34pm:

Coupled with the fact that Muslims are responsible for the vast majority of the 100,000 to 180,000 Christians martyred around the world every year.

Which is wrong in almost every respect.  Oh and grats on hitting the Godwin button. 

Muslims are not responsible for the vast majority of Christian deaths every year
The statistic is misleading, as the numbers are greatly influenced by a handful of conflicts that happened which were Christians against Christians
There is no evidence to show that they were martyred, as in killed for their faith.

Your continual behavior to lie and misrepresent the deaths of thousands of your brothers and sisters to fuel your own hate about Islam is reprehensible.

Gandalf does the same thing. I spend more time trying to explain to him that I did not actually say what he thinks in his wild fantasies.

Stratos wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 11:42pm:

Dear oh dear, more misleading statements that aren't even relevant now. Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 11:34pm: Coupled with the fact that Muslims are responsible for the vast majority of the 100,000 to 180,000 Christians martyred around the world every year. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24864587 Quote: More than four million are estimated to have been killed in that war between 2000 and 2010, and CSGC counts 900,000 of them - or 20% - as martyrs. Over 10 years, that averages out at 90,000 per year. So when you hear that 100,000 Christians are dying for their faith, you need to keep in mind that the vast majority - 90,000 - are people who were killed in DR Congo. This means we can say right away that the internet rumours of Muslims being behind the killing of 100,000 Christian martyrs are nonsense. The DRC is a Christian country. In the civil war, Christians were killing Christians.

Ibid:
"One has to see that there is no scientific number at the moment. It has not been researched and all experts in this area are very hesitant to give a figure," he says.

"We are starting a research project with several universities worldwide on this topic and there we start with a guess of 7-8,000 Christians killed as martyrs each year."

But to some extent this number crunching is besides the point for author John Allen.

"I think it would be good to have reliable figures on this issue, but I don't think it ultimately matters in terms of the point of my book, which is to break through the narrative that tends to dominate discussion in the West - that Christians can't be persecuted because they belong to the world's most powerful church.

"The truth is two thirds of the 2.3 billion Christians in the world today live… in dangerous neighbourhoods. They are often poor. They often belong to ethnic, linguistic and cultural minorities. And they are often at risk.

"And ultimately I think making that point is more important than being precise about the death toll."


Elsewhere in the news, the monthly round-up of Muslim persecution of Christians:
http://www.raymondibrahim.com/category/muslim-persecution-of-christians/

In which country, where Muslims are today in a minority, are Muslim civilians systematically murdered by the Christian majority mobs?

Stratos wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 8:48am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 4th, 2014 at 1:02am: That is, that it is the number of killed that should be focused on, rather than the matter of fact that the murder is taking place, and exactly what is behind it. You know i never disputed the number actually, I disputed your claim that was: Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 11:34pm: Coupled with the fact that Muslims are responsible for the vast majority of the 100,000 to 180,000 Christians martyred around the world every year. Which is wrong in almost every respect.  Oh and grats on hitting the Godwin button.  Muslims are not responsible for the vast majority of Christian deaths every year

This is true. Things such as heart attack, stroke, cancer and natural causes are responsible for the majority of Christian deaths every year.


Stratos wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 8:48am:

The statistic is misleading, as the numbers are greatly influenced by a handful of conflicts that happened which were Christians against Christians

A preposterous lie in the light of the evidence. But then you are the devil's advocate. A mouthpiece for the father of lies, which isn't just an empty claim of mine:

1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

It isn't about what I say. That's why I quoted:

From the Hoover Institute: "Few people realize that we are today living through the largest persecution of Christians in history, worse even than the famous attacks under ancient Roman emperors like Diocletian and Nero. Estimates of the numbers of Christians under assault range from 100-200 million. According to one estimate, a Christian is martyred every five minutes. And most of this persecution is taking place at the hands of Muslims. Of the top fifty countries persecuting Christians, forty-two have either a Muslim majority or have sizeable Muslim populations."
Full article:
hoover.org/publications/defining-ideas/article/152651

raymondibrahim.com

persecution.org

gatestoneinstitute.org/3033/muslim-persecution-of-christians-march-2012

barnabasfund.org

Here's a snapshot from just the country of Nigeria Calabash:
nigeriacalabash.com/content/attack-christians-11-2011
12/28/2012 Musari: Islamists tie up fifteen women and children inside a church, then slit their throats while shouting praises to Allah.
12/26/2012 Bachit: Suspected Fulani murder three villagers, including a married couple, in attacks on two Christian homes.
12/25/2012 Peri: A pastor and five worshippers are slaughtered in a Religion of Peace attack on a Christmas morning church service.
12/25/2012 Rim: A Christian is killed in his home by Fulani gunmen in front of his family.
12/24/2012 Maiduguri: Six people are killed in a Christmas Eve church attack by Religion of Peace gunmen.
12/6/2012 Yankaba: Two Christian teenagers are executed by gunmen on a motorcycle yelling, 'Allah akbar'.
12/2/2012 Chibok: Religion of Peace proponents invade a Christian village in the middle of the night and massacre ten residents.
12/1/2012 Gamboru Ngala: Two guards die when Muslims shouting 'Allah Akbar' burn churches.
11/25/2012 Jaji: Two suicide bombers massacre fifteen worshippers at a Protestant church.
11/22/2012 Bichi: Angry Muslims riot, burn churches and kills four Christians over a rumor of blasphemy concerning a t-shirt."


Stratos wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 8:48am:

There is no evidence to show that they were martyred, as in killed for their faith.

If you mean that those women and children that had their throats slit in their church, could not testify as to their faith afterward, that would be correct.
Same with the 78 murdered in the church bombing in Pakistan, though the over 100 injured can still testify to their faith.
tribune.com.pk/story/607734/fifteen-dead-in-suicide-attack-outside-peshawar-church/


Stratos wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 8:48am:

Your continual behavior to lie and misrepresent the deaths of thousands of your brothers and sisters to fuel your own hate about Islam is reprehensible.

My hatred of Islam, is an expression of my Christian love, for those deceived into following the false prophet Muhammad alone.
falseprophetmuhammad.com
For those thus consumed by the spirit of antichrist as a result:
falseprophetmuhammad.com/islam_is_antichrist.htm

For those poor souls so sorely deluded by by Satan, through his STAND-ALONE 7th century false prophet Muhammad, who fills his followers with complete resolve to specifically DISbelieve the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, and thus REJECT the shed blood of the Lamb of God, and DENY the Son of God, AS ARTICLES OF THEIR FAITH in Muhammad alone.
islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

It is an antichrist agnostic's defense of Muhammad's scripture-contrary, counter-religion with a pre-Muhammad history-devoid, archaeology-absent, reality-rejecting, geographically-impossible so-called "tradition", that masquerades as thousands of years of pre-Muhammad history, yet was all created and put to the pen in the 7th to 10th centuries AD without reference to any actual historical or archaeological record that preceded the 5th century, that is reprehensible.

freediver wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 8:49am:

Gandalf does the same thing. I spend more time trying to explain to him that I did not actually say what he thinks in his wild fantasies.

I get mainly non-responsiveness from gandalf, for good reason:
ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388067196/20#20
ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388584924
ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388407613/38#38

Stratos wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 8:48am:

Oh and grats on hitting the Godwin button.

Being unfamiliar with the term I googled it and found:

"....an Internet adage. It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches."

Which should certainly be no surprise regarding any honest discussion about Islam. Unless, of course the discussion began, with the subject of Muslim Nazis.

But in this case it isn't a "comparison" as much as a matter of historical fact that the Islamic Mufti of Jerusalem worked hand in hand with Hitler toward genocide of Jews. With several Muslim Nazi SS divisions and a Muslim panzer division in Hitlers army.
zionismchristian.com/hitler_and_mufti.htm

No surprise then to find that Muslims, Nazis, skinheads, the KKK, white supremacists, communist Soviets, Louis Farrakan and the "Nation of Islam", George Soros and his Center for American Progress and anti-Semites of all stripes, are anti-Zionist today.

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 12:31am:

A preposterous lie in the light of the evidence.

What evidence?  The statistic was incorrect because it includes conflicts that are not against Muslims, and includes Christians who are not killed for their religion, which means they are not martyred.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 12:31am:

Estimates of the numbers of Christians under assault range from 100-200 million

Under assault =/= martyr, which was your original claim.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 12:31am:

If you mean that those women and children that had their throats slit in their church, could not testify as to their faith afterward, that would be correct. Same with the 78 murdered in the church bombing in Pakistan, though the over 100 injured can still testify to their faith.

This does not support your claim that between 100 000 -180 000 Christians are martyred every year, mostly by Muslims.  Which I very much doubt you can come up with evidence with.  Stop misrepresenting your dead brothers and sisters Peter. 


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 12:31am:

It is an antichrist agnostic's defense of Muhammad's scripture-contrary, counter-religion with a pre-Muhammad history-devoid, archaeology-absent, reality-rejecting, geographically-impossible so-called "tradition", that masquerades as thousands of years of pre-Muhammad history, yet was all created and put to the pen in the 7th to 10th centuries AD without reference to any actual historical or archaeological record that preceded the 5th century, that is reprehensible.

Right, and apparently that makes it OK to use your dead brothers and sisters to try and score points against Islam.  Or maybe you think it's OK to deceive people in the name of religion as you so often criticise Islam for.

Stratos wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 7:54am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5th, 2014 at 12:31am: A preposterous lie in the light of the evidence. What evidence?  The statistic was incorrect because it includes conflicts that are not against Muslims, and includes Christians who are not killed for their religion, which means they are not martyred. Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5th, 2014 at 12:31am: Estimates of the numbers of Christians under assault range from 100-200 million Under assault =/= martyr, which was your original claim. Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5th, 2014 at 12:31am: If you mean that those women and children that had their throats slit in their church, could not testify as to their faith afterward, that would be correct. Same with the 78 murdered in the church bombing in Pakistan, though the over 100 injured can still testify to their faith. This does not support your claim that between 100 000 -180 000 Christians are martyred every year, mostly by Muslims.  Which I very much doubt you can come up with evidence with.  Stop misrepresenting your dead brothers and sisters Peter.  Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5th, 2014 at 12:31am: It is an antichrist agnostic's defense of Muhammad's scripture-contrary, counter-religion with a pre-Muhammad history-devoid, archaeology-absent, reality-rejecting, geographically-impossible so-called "tradition", that masquerades as thousands of years of pre-Muhammad history, yet was all created and put to the pen in the 7th to 10th centuries AD without reference to any actual historical or archaeological record that preceded the 5th century, that is reprehensible. Right, and apparently that makes it OK to use your dead brothers and sisters to try and score points against Islam.  Or maybe you think it's OK to deceive people in the name of religion as you so often criticise Islam for.

Complain to the Pope about the number.
firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/05/29/vatican-to-un-more-than-100000-christians-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/

Let alone that your foolishness presumes they can all be counted, even as they are slaughtered throughout much of the undeveloped African continent, let alone jungles and obscure backwaters, all around the world.

Your comical defense of a murderous cult is really quite amusing, when the historical record tells us that after a conquest Muhammad's followers simply slaughtered atheists and agnostics such as yourself, out of hand, rather than allowing them the "privilege" of being bled in the slavery of dhimmitude, as they did Christians and Jews.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/islamic_slavery_dhimmitude.htm

They still persecute and murder Muslims that become atheists and agnostics unto this day.
youtube.com/watch?v=PzFlBIV1_Uc
youtube.com/watch?v=OeYTR8glumo

And as I mentioned before, it is antichrists such as yourself and holocaust deniers, that distract themselves away from the whole subject by focusing on the number of the slain as if that is what matters, rather than focusing on the reason that Christians are being martyred all around the world, mainly by Muhammad's followers.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/muslim_persecution_of_christians.htm

You are simply further confirming your inability to grasp objective reality.
The reason is the same that Christians have been persecuted and martyred for nearly 2,000 years.
That reason of course is the spirit of antichrist that fills Satan's people.
But as Christians have been well aware throughout the last 2,000 years, it comes with the turf and will continue to, until Christ returns:

Jhn 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will  live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 12:11pm:

Let alone that your foolishness presumes they can all be counted, even as they are slaughtered throughout much of the undeveloped African continent, let alone jungles and obscure backwaters, all around the world.

You are arguing with yourself now.   You were the one who provided a number.  I just showed you why it was incorrect


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 12:11pm:

Complain to the Pope about the number.

.
1.  It's not the pope, its a vatican representative.
2. Based on your previous statements I'm pretty sure you are not a Catholic, so a better question is why do YOU not question the number.
3.  The number is bloated and incorrect as it involves conflicts between Christians, and Christians who are NOT killed for their faith, which means they are not martyrs.

How do you think your fallen brothers and sisters would feel about you lying about their deaths? 


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 12:11pm:

Your comical defense of a murderous cult is really quite amusing

I'm not defending Islam here actually, i'm simply arguing against your blatant and clear lies about the numbers of Christian martyrs. 


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 12:11pm:

They still persecute and murder Muslims that become atheists and agnostics unto this day.

Correct in some areas yes.  Still doesn't support your wrong statistics.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 12:11pm:

that distract themselves away from the whole subject by focusing on the number of the slain as if that is what matters

More hypocritical arguments, when you yourself was the one who posted numbers regarding the number of Christians who were "martyred"


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 12:11pm:

mainly by Muhammad's followers

Again, the statistics you posted when looked into revealed that the majority of Christians that count towards that statistic were in fact killed by other Christians.

Stratos wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 4:13pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5th, 2014 at 12:11pm: Let alone that your foolishness presumes they can all be counted, even as they are slaughtered throughout much of the undeveloped African continent, let alone jungles and obscure backwaters, all around the world. You are arguing with yourself now.   You were the one who provided a number.  I just showed you why it was incorrect Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5th, 2014 at 12:11pm: Complain to the Pope about the number. . 1.  It's not the pope, its a vatican representative.

You are the one that is arguing for the sake of argument.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 12:11pm:

2. Based on your previous statements I'm pretty sure you are not a Catholic, ........

Which is completely irrelevant, and a comically transparent dodge, now that you realize you can't assign the number to me alone. Satan has you out striving to minimize Islam's murder, mayhem and misery.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 12:11pm:

........ so a better question is why do YOU not question the number.

Typical liberal. Shoot the messenger. Still arguing the number and avoiding the reason for Christian persecution, while the same spirit resides in you.

“an estimated 176,000 Christians were martyred from mid-2008 to mid-2009."
google.com/#q=176%2C000+Christians+were+martyred+from+mid-2008+to+mid-2009

The question is why you cannot even seem to imagine, the additional massive number martyred in the third world, that are never even counted.

While you have deluded yourself into believing you had once been a Christian, it is a shame you never stopped to wonder just what it is about born again Christians with a life in Jesus Christ, that makes them so willing to die for what they believe in.
Much less wonder what it is about Muhammad's followers, that make them want to murder us.

Quran Surah 9.111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an:.....
falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm


Stratos wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 4:13pm:

3.  The number is bloated and incorrect as it involves conflicts between Christians, and Christians who are NOT killed for their faith, which means they are not martyrs. How do you think your fallen brothers and sisters would feel about you lying about their deaths?  Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5th, 2014 at 12:11pm: Your comical defense of a murderous cult is really quite amusing I'm not defending Islam here actually,..........

You have done nothing but defend, excuse away and minimize Islam's murder, mayhem and misery spread all around the world, since I have been in this forum.


Stratos wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 4:13pm:

.......... i'm simply arguing against your blatant and clear lies about the numbers of Christian martyrs.

I would suggest you are running and hiding from THE REASON, because you now realize you share the same spirit of antichrist, with those that are committing the atrocities.


Stratos wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 4:13pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5th, 2014 at 12:11pm: They still persecute and murder Muslims that become atheists and agnostics unto this day. Correct in some areas yes.  Still doesn't support your wrong statistics.

The numbers.


Stratos wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 4:13pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5th, 2014 at 12:11pm: that distract themselves away from the whole subject by focusing on the number of the slain as if that is what matters More hypocritical arguments, when you yourself was the one who posted numbers regarding the number of Christians who were "martyred"

The numbers.


Stratos wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 4:13pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5th, 2014 at 12:11pm: mainly by Muhammad's followers Again, the statistics you posted when looked into revealed that the majority of Christians that count towards that statistic were in fact killed by other Christians.

Again the numbers, while avoiding the subject. What about the spirit? What do you suppose makes you hate Jesus so much?

What makes one third of mankind in the world today believe that Christ was crucified, died and was resurrected from the dead, as revealed through the prophets and witnesses of the 1600 year record of revelation of the one true God to mankind, whose people have followed Him through two covenants for 3500 years.

While a directly opposing one quarter of mankind in the ANTI-religion of Islam are required to DISbelieve the whole subject of the Gospel, and thus REJECT the sin-atoning shed blood of the Messiah, and DENY the Son of God - AS ARTICLES OF THEIR FAITH in Muhammad alone.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/muhammad_islam_in_bible_prophecy.htm

Your cognitive dysfunction, incapacity for critical thought, and intellect divorced from objective reality, do offer insight into why only about 4% of citizens here in the U.S. are smart enough to believe there is no God.

:o :o  That's some dysfunctional thinking alright. 

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

You are the one that is arguing for the sake of argument.

Actually, I'm arguing because you are defending blatantly incorrect data.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

Satan has you out striving to minimize Islam's murder, mayhem and misery.

I'm not minmising anything actually, I'm simply showing that accepting a completely incorrect statistic just because it supports your argument is incredible misleading.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

Typical liberal. Shoot the messenger

Your data is wrong and you have been shown specifically why and how yet still continue to believe and defend the numbers.  This isn't simply being wrong for you anymore, it's deliberately lying and misleading to try and push your agenda.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

Typical liberal

Just FYI Liberals are conservatives in Australia  ;) Down under logic I know.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

You have done nothing but defend, excuse away and minimize Islam's murder, mayhem and misery spread all around the world, since I have been in this forum.

And lying about statistics is good for your argument how exactly?

The statistics are incorrect, read some of the following to shed some light on it for you in case you didn't read the links before.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24864587

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2013/september/counting-cost-accurately.html

Quote:

The number 100,000 is a well-meant but gross exaggeration

http://www.thomasschirrmacher.net/blog/a-response-to-the-high-counts-of-christian-martyrs-per-year/

If you have any resources that demonstrate otherwise, please post them here and I will read them, but everything I have read is either in response to the Vatican spokesperson, or saying the numbers are a gross misrepresentation.

Datalife wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 9:35pm:

:o :o  That's some dysfunctional thinking alright.

There's no shortage of intellectuals that set out to reinforce their disbelief, that after honestly considering the evidence that they had specifically avoided in the past, enjoy a life in Jesus Christ today.

"Randall Niles was the definitive skeptic, critic, and cynic. Forged in the fires of Georgetown, Oxford, and Berkeley, Randall's peers knew him as a "practicing atheist." Then, in what seemed to be overnight, people witnessed a dramatic shift in his life. Go on a journey with Randall as he poses questions, explores assumptions, and challenges his long-held preconceptions about life, purpose, and meaning."

allaboutthejourney.org

islamandthetruth.com/bible_prophecy.htm

beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm

Stratos wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 10:13pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5th, 2014 at 9:10pm: You are the one that is arguing for the sake of argument. Actually, I'm arguing because you are defending blatantly incorrect data. Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5th, 2014 at 9:10pm: Satan has you out striving to minimize Islam's murder, mayhem and misery. I'm not minmising anything actually, I'm simply showing that accepting a completely incorrect statistic just because it supports your argument is incredible misleading. Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5th, 2014 at 9:10pm: Typical liberal. Shoot the messenger Your data is wrong and you have been shown specifically why and how yet still continue to believe and defend the numbers.  This isn't simply being wrong for you anymore, it's deliberately lying and misleading to try and push your agenda. Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5th, 2014 at 9:10pm: Typical liberal Just FYI Liberals are conservatives in Australia  ;) Down under logic I know. Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5th, 2014 at 9:10pm: You have done nothing but defend, excuse away and minimize Islam's murder, mayhem and misery spread all around the world, since I have been in this forum. And lying about statistics is good for your argument how exactly? The statistics are incorrect, read some of the following to shed some light on it for you in case you didn't read the links before. bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24864587[/url] christianitytoday.com/ct/2013/september/counting-cost-accurately.html [/url] Quote: The number 100,000 is a well-meant but gross exaggeration thomasschirrmacher.net/blog/a-response-to-the-high-counts-of-christian-martyrs-per-year/[/url] If you have any resources that demonstrate otherwise, please post them here and I will read them, but everything I have read is either in response to the Vatican spokesperson, or saying the numbers are a gross misrepresentation.

Look at you going on and on, in post after post after post, about the number martyred as if that were what mattered. Just like a holocaust denier, that runs and hides from the actual subject, through the same device. Running and hiding from discussion about the REASON Muslims are responsible for the vast majority of Christians martyred around the world every year.

From the Hoover Institute: "Few people realize that we are today living through the largest persecution of Christians in history, worse even than the famous attacks under ancient Roman emperors like Diocletian and Nero. Estimates of the numbers of Christians under assault range from 100-200 million. According to one estimate, a Christian is martyred every five minutes. And most of this persecution is taking place at the hands of Muslims. Of the top fifty countries persecuting Christians, forty-two have either a Muslim majority or have sizeable Muslim populations."
falseprophetmuhammad.com/muslim_persecution_of_christians.htm

For those that are interested, from a Christian perspective, this is the reason:
1 John 2:22 He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.....
falseprophetmuhammad.com/islam_is_antichrist.htm

You accuse me, as if I were the one that took the count, when it is instead a matter of you choosing to believe, what you choose to believe. Rather than accusing me, why not instead simply say you wish to reject the Vatican numbers, for the numbers that you choose to favor? Though very (down under style "conservative"?) of you to believe that you are the one with the sole franchise on truth, and everyone else must necessarily modify their understanding, to conform to your own. This, ironically, even as you follow the father of lies himself.

And I did post. Again:

"Vatican to UN: More than 100,000 Christians Killed for Their Faith Each Year"
firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/05/29/vatican-to-un-more-than-100000-ch
ristians-killed-for-their-faith-each-year/

“an estimated 176,000 Christians were martyred from mid-2008 to mid-2009."
google.com/#q=“an+estimated+176%2C000+Christians+were+martyred+from+mid-2008+to+mid-2009."

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 11:58pm:

Datalife wrote on Jan 5th, 2014 at 9:35pm: :o :o  That's some dysfunctional thinking alright. There's no shortage of intellectuals that set out to reinforce their disbelief, that after honestly considering the evidence that they had specifically avoided in the past, enjoy a life in Jesus Christ today. "Randall Niles was the definitive skeptic, critic, and cynic. Forged in the fires of Georgetown, Oxford, and Berkeley, Randall's peers knew him as a "practicing atheist." Then, in what seemed to be overnight, people witnessed a dramatic shift in his life. Go on a journey with Randall as he poses questions, explores assumptions, and challenges his long-held preconceptions about life, purpose, and meaning." allaboutthejourney.org

I have no doubt about that at all.  I am absolutely convinced people genuinely feel the rapture and the presence of god.  I also think that we as a species have a unique sense of wonder that in turn has set in train an exploratory and experimental instinct that has made us a successful species second only to beetles and bacteria. 

And I am not denigrating religion, I do not decry its effects on individuals but I am alive to the fact that it has a power that is not always beneficial. One day I may have a brain fart or bleed in a part of my brain and like yourself, see the light and feel the urge to proselytize. 

Until that happens I consider anyone who attempts to engage debate with quotes from ancient religious texts or references to gods as brain damaged, which is not to say you are dumb or stupid, there are many brilliant people who believe in your particular god, lots of other brilliant people believe in other gods.

More like your god spot has been tickled and you have no control over sounding like a zealot.  I hope for myself I never blow or trigger that fuse and end up sounding like you, but then if I did, I would never know any different. I would be assimilated. 

Bit like the Borg really. 

Datalife wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 12:38am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5th, 2014 at 11:58pm: Datalife wrote on Jan 5th, 2014 at 9:35pm: :o :o  That's some dysfunctional thinking alright. There's no shortage of intellectuals that set out to reinforce their disbelief, that after honestly considering the evidence that they had specifically avoided in the past, enjoy a life in Jesus Christ today. "Randall Niles was the definitive skeptic, critic, and cynic. Forged in the fires of Georgetown, Oxford, and Berkeley, Randall's peers knew him as a "practicing atheist." Then, in what seemed to be overnight, people witnessed a dramatic shift in his life. Go on a journey with Randall as he poses questions, explores assumptions, and challenges his long-held preconceptions about life, purpose, and meaning." allaboutthejourney.org I have no doubt about that at all.  I am absolutely sure people genuinely feel the rapture and the presence of god.  I also think that we as a species have a unique sense of wonder that in turn has set in train an exploratory and experimental instinct that has made us a successful species second only to beetles and bacteria.  And I am not denigrating religion, I do not decry its effects on individuals but I am alive to the fact that it has a power that is not always beneficial.

Sadly that is true of religion, and conveniently so, for those who wish to run and hide from God, by judging such as the Roman Church murder of Jews, Muslims, AND CHRISTIANS as representing the Gospel, rather than turning to the Gospel to judge the specifically UNChristian behavior of men. Which if you did, would recognize that the world wouldn't be a half bad place if everyone followed Christian's most important commandments:

Mark 12:29  And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment. 31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Which is how you can easily estimate whether a person is a Christian or a - often self-deluded - poser.

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

It isn't too difficult to judge by the fruit, as evidenced all around the world, as to what the world might otherwise be like:

Repairing the disfigured and broken.
mercyships.org
youtube.com/watch?v=mc6qWJIm5II

Feeding and caring for children.
compassion.com

Freeing Islam's slaves in Africa.
youtube.com/watch?v=l1j8D1j9mEc

Helping in disasters and helping to rehabilitate the homeless and get the broken back on their feet.
salvationarmyusa.org


Datalife wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 12:38am:

One day I may have a brain fart or bleed in a part of my brain and like yourself, see the light and feel the urge to proselytism.  Until that happens I consider anyone who attempts to engage debate with quotes from ancient religious texts or references to gods as brain damaged.

Like Isaac Newton for example.
As a 4%er (at least in the U.S.) how many years, months, days, hours, or minutes, have you spent in the study of scripture, related archaeology, and such as fulfilled Bible prophecy, from which you have drawn your conclusions?
islamandthetruth.com/bible_prophecy.htm
zionismchristian.com/zionism_in_christianity.htm


Datalife wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 12:38am:

Which is not to say you are dumb or stupid, there are many brilliant people who believe in your particular god, lots of other brilliant people believe in other gods. More like your god spot has been tickled and you have no control over sounding like a zealot.  I hope for myself I don't blow that fuse and end up sounding like you. but then if I did, I would never know any thing different. Bit like the Borg really.

Sparky wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 12:57pm:

wally1 wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 10:32am: Sparky wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 8:50am: Why the F do Muslim woman wear head coverings? I know we've talked about it a million times but I still just don't understand. who cares if they do.I wouldn't care two stuffs if a hindu wears a turban or a jew wears a skull cap. I'll ask again. Why? I honestly want to know.

I have read it started in Mesopotamia to keep the meat white, you get more for white meat at the slave markets. Possibly why muslims still keep up this pagan tradition.

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 9:10pm:

do offer insight into why only about 4% of citizens here in the U.S. are smart enough to believe there is no God.

I noticed a headline in a newspaper the other day, did not read the article but "People who believe in God have thicker brains" certainly made me chuckle. It made me think, wonder if that's why 600 million muslims are illiterate.

For the record, once again. I am an atheist.

Adamant wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 4:15am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5th, 2014 at 9:10pm: do offer insight into why only about 4% of citizens here in the U.S. are smart enough to believe there is no God. I noticed a headline in a newspaper the other day, did not read the article but "People who believe in God have thicker brains" certainly made me chuckle. It made me think, wonder if that's why 600 million muslims are illiterate.

Probably the anti-intellectualism of Islam, and inbreeding, has more to do with it.
nytimes.com/2003/05/01/world/saudi-arabia-awakes-to-the-perils-of-inbreeding.html?pagewanted=1

"Across the Arab world today an average of 45 percent of married couples are related, according to Dr. Nadia Sakati, a pediatrician and senior consultant for the genetics research center at King Faisal Specialist Hospital in Riyadh.

In some parts of Saudi Arabia, particularly in the south, where Mrs. Hefthi was raised, the rate of marriage among blood relatives ranges from 55 to 70 percent, among the highest rates in the world, according to the Saudi government."

Another article:
"Nicolai Sennels is a Danish psychologist who has done extensive research into a little-known problem in the Muslim world: the disastrous results of Muslim inbreeding brought about by the marriage of first-cousins.

This practice, which has been prohibited in the Judeo-Christian tradition since the days of Moses, was sanctioned by Muhammad and has been going on now for 50 generations (1,400 years) in the Muslim world.

According to Sennels, close to half of all Muslims in the world are inbred. In Pakistan, the numbers approach 70%. Even in England, more than half of Pakistani immigrants are married to their first cousins, and in Denmark the number of inbred Pakistani immigrants is around 40%.

The numbers are equally devastating in other important Muslim countries: 67% in Saudi Arabia, 64% in Jordan and Kuwait, 63% in Sudan, 60% in Iraq, and 54% in the United Arab Emirates and Qatar.

Lowered intellectual capacity is another devastating consequence of Muslim marriage patterns. According to Sennels, research shows that children of consanguinous marriages lose 10-16 points off their IQ and that social abilities develop much slower in inbred babies.

Sennels says that “the ability to enjoy and produce knowledge and abstract thinking is simply lower in the Islamic world.” He points out that the Arab world translates just 330 books every year, about 20% of what Greece alone does.

In the last 1,200 years years of Islam, just 100,000 books have been translated into Arabic, about what Spain does in a single year. Seven out of 10 Turks have never even read a book."


Adamant wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 4:15am:

For the record, once again. I am an atheist.

Could you indulge me with an answer to a question? Would you measure in terms of years, months, days, hours, or minutes, the amount of time you have devoted to the study of scripture, related archaeology, and such as fulfilled Bible prophecy, to decide against it in favor of atheism?
islamandthetruth.com/bible_prophecy.htm
zionismchristian.com/zionism_in_christianity.htm
zionismchristian.com/daniel_prophesied_modern_zionism.htm

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 12:29am:

Running and hiding from discussion about the REASON Muslims are responsible for the vast majority of Christians martyred

Well this might be true, but you haven't provided any evidence to support it yet.  Thank you for the sources, I'll read through them and see what they say, and whether they back up your claim that 100 000- 180 000 Christians are martyred every year, and mostly by Muslims.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 12:29am:

falseprophetmuhammad.com/muslim_persecution_of_christians.htm

Not a good start, the first source linked in the article is a Bing search which contradicts the article itself, by having the first article it comes up with 14000, and the second one agrees that the number of Christian martyrs is very hard to define and disputes the number too.

The next sourcehttp://www.hoover.org/publications/defining-ideas/article/152651 mentions that 100-200 million are "under assault" but offers no statistics on martyred Christians.

Then there are some reports of various tragedies, that while terrible, definitely do not add up to anywhere close to 100000-180000 a year.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 12:29am:

falseprophetmuhammad.com/islam_is_antichrist.htm

Contains no information or links about the number of Christians killed for their faith.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 12:29am:

firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/05/29/vatican-to-un-more-than-100000-ch

This has a single quote which has the number 100000, which as I have shown you, includes Christians who are not killed for their faith and as such are not martyrs, and the majority of deaths in the statistic are from civil wars.  Even if it taken as gospel (and it shouldn't be, because it has been demonstrated it is wrong, and why it is), it is still a far cry from your maximum number of 180000.

Your statement is wrong Pete, simple as that.  If you believe it otherwise come and prove it

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 5:34am:

Could you indulge me with an answer to a question? Would you measure in terms of years, months, days, hours, or minutes, the amount of time you have devoted to the study of scripture, related archaeology, and such as fulfilled Bible prophecy, to decide against it in favor of atheism?

I think it was about the age of 9 that god became a fallacy to me, at 18 or 19 started to read Philosophical books which confirmed my original thoughts were true, I have been happy ever since.

Most of the Old Testament is not true and cannot be proven. Abraham (one of the cornerstones of islam) and Moses did not exist they are just stories parables whatever, but not true. Bearing that in mind the muslim cult falls flat on its face as they did not exist Mo man told a lie, end of islam!

60 miles (as you are a yank) south of a town called Winton in the State of Queensland is a place named Larks Quarry. 70 million years ago a large dinosaur charged a flock of smaller ones the result is now a large building housing 3200 tracks for all that are interested to see.

70 million years ago god had not even been invented.

It is an amazing sight if you would like a picture of them pm me an email address file size  about 9 to 14 meg

Stratos wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 8:42am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 12:29am: Running and hiding from discussion about the REASON Muslims are responsible for the vast majority of Christians martyred Well this might be true, but you haven't provided any evidence to support it yet.  Thank you for the sources, I'll read through them and see what they say, and whether they back up your claim that 100 000- 180 000 Christians are martyred every year, and mostly by Muslims.

Mostly by whom then? You see Stratos, a person with a capacity for critical thought, has no difficulty connecting the dots and extrapolating. Who do you believe is responsible for most of the Christians martyred every year? Aborigines? Jews? Let's look at some of those dots:

CNS reports: "Sunni Muslim terrorists committed “about 70 percent” of the 12,533 terrorist murders in the world last year [for 2011], according to a report by the National Counterterrorism Center (NCTC)."
That's for the year 2011, and that percentage doesn't even include Shiite Muslim terrorist murders. Thus it should be obvious to all non-Muslims, that the world would be largely at peace today, if the followers of Muhammad had not been commanded to "fight and slay" non-Muslims in the "cause" of "Allah".

Can you connect the dots Stratos? Does that statistic communicate to you who is responsible for most of the Christians - as well as non-Christians - that were murdered by acts of terror, for openers?


Stratos wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 8:42am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 12:29am: falseprophetmuhammad.com/muslim_persecution_of_christians.htm Not a good start, the first source linked in the article is a Bing search which contradicts the article itself, by having the first article it comes up with 14000, and the second one agrees that the number of Christian martyrs is very hard to define and disputes the number too. The next source hoover.org/publications/defining-ideas/article/152651 mentions that 100-200 million are "under assault" but offers no statistics on martyred Christians. Then there are some reports of various tragedies, that while terrible, definitely do not add up to anywhere close to 100000-180000 a year. Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 12:29am: falseprophetmuhammad.com/islam_is_antichrist.htm Contains no information or links about the number of Christians killed for their faith. Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 12:29am: firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/05/29/vatican-to-un-more-than-100000-ch This has a single quote which has the number 100000, which as I have shown you, includes Christians who are not killed for their faith and as such are not martyrs, and the majority of deaths in the statistic are from civil wars.  Even if it taken as gospel (and it shouldn't be, because it has been demonstrated it is wrong, and why it is), it is still a far cry from your maximum number of 180000. Your statement is wrong Pete, simple as that.  If you believe it otherwise come and prove it

Why don't you stop dithering on about the numbers, until such time as you come up with a count of all of the uncounted, throughout the African continent as well as backwaters and jungles all around the world.

You have mentioned that you are agnostic. Could you indulge me with an answer to a question, that Datalife and adamant for some reason, failed to answer?

Would you measure in terms of years, months, days, hours, or minutes, the amount of time you have devoted to study of scripture, related archaeology, and such as fulfilled Bible prophecy, prior to your deciding to reject it in favor of agnosticism?

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 10:03pm:

Mostly by whom then?

i don't know.  Neither do you though, at least not through any statistics you provided.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 10:03pm:

Sunni Muslim terrorists committed “about 70 percent” of the 12,533 terrorist murders in the world last year

Terrorist murders =/= martyrs.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 10:03pm:

Would you measure in terms of years, months, days, hours, or minutes, the amount of time you have devoted to study of scripture, related archaeology, and such as fulfilled Bible prophecy, prior to your deciding to reject it in favor of agnosticism?

Of course not, what a request.  I mean to minutes? how is anyone supposed to know that.

I attended a Christian group for three years before deciding to become one, then was a believer for eight years, if you are curious

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 10:03pm:

Why don't you stop dithering on about the numbers, until such time as you come up with a count of all of the uncounted, throughout the African continent as well as backwaters and jungles all around the world.

You presented numbers, I showed you why they were wrong, and now you are diverting the question to a request that you know full well cannot possibly be answered.  Congratulating in shooting your own argument in the foot.

Works fine for me, as I was simply disputing your claim that 100000-180000 Christians are martyred every year, and mostly by Muslims, which once again is at worst lies and at best completely unsubstantiated and unprovable

Stratos wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 10:13pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 10:03pm: Mostly by whom then? i don't know.  Neither do you though, at least not through any statistics you provided. Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 10:03pm: Sunni Muslim terrorists committed “about 70 percent” of the 12,533 terrorist murders in the world last year Terrorist murders =/= martyrs.

Frequently. Particularly when they occur in churches.
While you once again exhibit your incapacity for critical thought, and intellect completely divorced from objective reality.
thereligionofpeace.com


Stratos wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 10:13pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 10:03pm: Would you measure in terms of years, months, days, hours, or minutes, the amount of time you have devoted to study of scripture, related archaeology, and such as fulfilled Bible prophecy, prior to your deciding to reject it in favor of agnosticism? Of course not, what a request.  I mean to minutes? how is anyone supposed to know that.

Sorry, I did do a bad job of that. In my effort to be clear I muddied the waters. If the amount of time you spent was under an hour, then you can estimate it in minutes. If it was under a week, then you can estimate in man-days that total 8 hours each (4 days of 2 hours etc.). If under a year you can estimate in months of man-days.


Stratos wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 10:13pm:

I attended a Christian group for three years before deciding to become one.......

Was your group devoted to Bible study and such, or playing softball and the like?


Stratos wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 10:13pm:

......... then was a believer for eight years, if you are curious

How much time would you guess you devoted to STUDY of scripture, Biblical archaeology, and particularly fulfilled prophecy, during that time?
islamandthetruth.com/bible_prophecy.htm

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 10:03pm:

You have mentioned that you are agnostic. Could you indulge me with an answer to a question, that Datalife and adamant for some reason, failed to answer?

What have I failed to answer Pete?

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 10:26pm:

Frequently. Particularly when they occur in churches.

Yes, but these statistics are NOT about martyrs.  Some may be definitely, but it doesn't back up your argument.  Also, it mentions the total number of these last year was 12,533.  Even if every single one of them was a Christian martyr, which is highly unlikely for a start that would still mean you have to multiply it by ten to get your quoted number of Christian martyrs per year.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 10:26pm:

Was your group devoted to Bible study and such, or playing softball?

Youth group that did a Bible study every week among other things.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 10:26pm:

How much time would you guess you devoted to STUDY of scripture, Biblical archaeology, and particularly fulfilled prophecy, during that time?

I would read and analyse and record notes on between 2 and 4 chapters of scripture a day, attended church services once a week, attended a peer group bible study and prayer meeting once a week and ran a bible study in conjunction with another person for three years, as well as attend usually 2 scripture based camps a year.

Adamant wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 10:32pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 10:03pm: You have mentioned that you are agnostic. Could you indulge me with an answer to a question, that Datalife and adamant for some reason, failed to answer? What have I failed to answer Pete?

The question that closed my reply to you:
ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388621936/67#67

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 10:35pm:

Adamant wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 10:32pm: Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 10:03pm: You have mentioned that you are agnostic. Could you indulge me with an answer to a question, that Datalife and adamant for some reason, failed to answer? What have I failed to answer Pete? The question that closed my reply to you: ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388621936/67#67

eh?  I didn't answer cos I didn't particularly care and I didn't realise it was directed at me and you were waiting for a response.  My bad.  I tend to ignore slabs of text from some posters.

But for your info I do not believe in god.  Hope that helps. 

Stratos wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 10:34pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 10:26pm: Frequently. Particularly when they occur in churches. Yes, but these statistics are NOT about martyrs.  Some may be definitely, but it doesn't back up your argument.  Also, it mentions the total number of these last year was 12,533.  Even if every single one of them was a Christian martyr, which is highly unlikely for a start that would still mean you have to multiply it by ten to get your quoted number of Christian martyrs per year.

That was to address the WHO is responsible, regarding the vast majority of Christians being martyred, are martyred by Muslims.


Stratos wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 10:34pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 10:26pm: Was your group devoted to Bible study and such, or playing softball? Youth group that did a Bible study every week among other things. Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 10:26pm: How much time would you guess you devoted to STUDY of scripture, Biblical archaeology, and particularly fulfilled prophecy, during that time? I would read and analyse and record notes on between 2 and 4 chapters of scripture a day, attended church services once a week, attended a peer group bible study and prayer meeting once a week and ran a bible study in conjunction with another person for three years, as well as attend usually 2 scripture based camps a year.

Thank you for that excellent and thorough answer to my question. So in all that study, surely you must have discussed fulfilled Bible prophecies, like that of Psalms 22, islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm and Isaiah 53, islamandthetruth.com/isaiah_53.htm and perhaps even investigated the odds against just a few of those prophesies coming true, being an accident. Like what were the odds that Jesus would be born in Bethlehem, as prophesied, being an accident:
islamandthetruth.com/bible_prophecy.htm

Let alone what are the odds that Jews would have been restored to their land, in fulfillment of so much Bible prophesy, just as anticipated by so many Christians, centuries before that restoration ever began?
zionismchristian.com/zionism_in_christianity.htm

What are the odds - that Jews would raise Israel from a desolated, desertified, depopulated wasteland as rendered by 1200 years of Islamization, to becoming one of the most technologically innovative, prosperous world economies, and geopolitical focus of the world - being an accident?
zionismchristian.com/history_of_modern_zionism.htm

What are the odds against Daniel prophesying of their gaining sovereign control over Israel in 1948, and then Jerusalem in 19967 - right to the year - through two parallel math problems that span 2500 years?
zionismchristian.com/daniel_prophesied_modern_zionism.htm

Datalife wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 10:40pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 10:35pm: Adamant wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 10:32pm: Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 10:03pm: You have mentioned that you are agnostic. Could you indulge me with an answer to a question, that Datalife and adamant for some reason, failed to answer? What have I failed to answer Pete? The question that closed my reply to you: ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388621936/67#67 eh?  I didn't answer cos I didn't particularly care and I didn't realise it was directed at me and you were waiting for a response.  My bad.  I tend to ignore slabs of text from some posters. But for your info I do not believe in god.  Hope that helps.

Didn't really help. I was asking how much time you spent in study of the things of God, like scripture, related history, archaeological evidence, fulfilled prophecy and the like, before you made your decision not to believe in God?

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 10:52pm:

Didn't really help. How much time did you spend in study of the things of the Spirit of God, like scripture, related history, archaeological evidence, fulfilled prophecy and the like, before you made your decision not to believe in God?

None at all.  Doesn't interest me.  But I do like archaeology. 

Datalife wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 10:57pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 10:52pm: Didn't really help. How much time did you spend in study of the things of the Spirit of God, like scripture, related history, archaeological evidence, fulfilled prophecy and the like, before you made your decision not to believe in God? None at all.  Doesn't interest me.

So how many other things, have you made such a firm and committed decision about, through self-imposed abject ignorance to the subject?


Datalife wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 10:57pm:

But I do like archaeology.

Did you ever wonder what the temple mount in Jerusalem doing there?
A good search if you like archaeology is - archaeology confirms Bible as ancient historical record

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 10:35pm:

Adamant wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 10:32pm: Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 10:03pm: You have mentioned that you are agnostic. Could you indulge me with an answer to a question, that Datalife and adamant for some reason, failed to answer? What have I failed to answer Pete? The question that closed my reply to you: ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388621936/67#67

Upon reflection I did answer your questions Pete, again I ask would you like a photo of a footprint that is pre god?

Adamant wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 11:09pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 10:35pm: Adamant wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 10:32pm: Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 10:03pm: You have mentioned that you are agnostic. Could you indulge me with an answer to a question, that Datalife and adamant for some reason, failed to answer? What have I failed to answer Pete? The question that closed my reply to you: ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388621936/67#67 Upon reflection I did answer your questions Pete, again I ask would you like a photo of a footprint that is pre god?

But surely even you can see that your amusing question didn't answer my question which was:


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 5:34am:

Could you indulge me with an answer to a question? Would you measure in terms of years, months, days, hours, or minutes, the amount of time you have devoted to the study of scripture, related archaeology, and such as fulfilled Bible prophecy, to decide against it in favor of atheism?

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 11:01pm:

So how many other things, have you made such a firm and committed decision about, through self-imposed abject ignorance to the subject?

Don't be so hasty, one day I might have a brain fart and see da light.   

Hold up Pete, by your own confession, you have said you know very little about Buddhism as per your previous comments here, yet you have obviously made up your mind that Christianity is the one true religion.  Your own question could very well apply to you about that


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 11:01pm:

So how many other things, have you made such a firm and committed decision about, through self-imposed abject ignorance to the subject?

Are you sure Buddhism is wrong?  If not, why are you not investigating it thoroughly to avoid self-imposed abject ignorance to the subject?

Datalife wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 11:16pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 11:01pm: So how many other things, have you made such a firm and committed decision about, through self-imposed abject ignorance to the subject? Don't be so hasty, one day I might have a brain fart and see da light.

So you characterize those who bother to investigate a subject, and make an informed decision on the basis of their study as suffering "brain farts", while you freely admit to having made your decision on the basis of self-imposed abject ignorance. Well done!

Gee, I wonder how I knew what your answer to my question would be, before I asked it? Should we be surprised then, to find that only about 4% of citizens in the U.S., are smart enough to believe there is no God?

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 11:22pm:

So you characterize those who bother to investigate a subject, and make an informed decision on the basis of their study as suffering "brain farts", while you admit to having made your decision on the basis of self-imposed abject ignorance. Well done!

If bible study is likely to lead me to end up sounding like you I will choose abject ignorance of the bible. 

Stratos wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 11:20pm:

Hold up Pete, by your own confession, you have said you know very little about Buddhism as per your previous comments here, yet you have obviously made up your mind that Christianity is the one true religion.  Your own question could very well apply to you about that Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 11:01pm: So how many other things, have you made such a firm and committed decision about, through self-imposed abject ignorance to the subject? Are you sure Buddhism is wrong?  If not, why are you not investigating it thoroughly to avoid self-imposed abject ignorance to the subject?

Buddha was a 6th-4th century BC individual that some people choose to follow. The reason I am a Christian is the 1600 year record of YHWH to mankind, as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses, whose people have followed Him through two covenants over 3500 years. A record that is ever increasingly confirmed by archaeological evidence to be a reliable record of ancient history, is further confirmed by fulfilled Bible prophecy, history and can even be confirmed mathematically.

The surface of which was only scratched in the bottom of my last post to you, that you chose to completely ignore. Why not try a substantive response this time?

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 11:39pm:

You quoted my post to Datalife as if it were addressed to you. Please try to avoid adding unnecessary confusion. You already explained to me that you had considerable exposure to the things of the Spirit of God.

Sorry, being a forum and all, I didn't think anyone would mind  .Doesn't mean my question is not relevant.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 11:39pm:

The reason I am a Christian is the 1600 year record of YHWH to mankind, as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses, whose people have followed Him through two covenants, for 3500 years

Funny, I thought the whole reason people became Christian was to be saved from their sin.

And you still didn't answer, why do you ask this question of non christians and flat out call themignorant, yet refuse to scrutinise yourself to the same level about other religions?

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 11:39pm:

The surface of which was only scratched in the bottom of my last post to you, that you chose to completely ignore

Oh, and there are some freaky prophecies I admit.  There are also many that have not come true, which brings the whole concept of the Bible being infallible to a bit of a standstill however.

Datalife wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 11:37pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 11:22pm:   So you characterize those who bother to investigate a subject, and make an informed decision on the basis of their study as suffering "brain farts", while you admit to having made your decision on the basis of self-imposed abject ignorance. Well done! If bible study is likely to lead me to end up sounding like you .......

Like ............ informed?
Do you think most people enjoy facing unpleasant truth any more than you do? Knee-jerk response is typically to denigrate the messenger, in an effort to avoid the truth.

You are resting on pure, blind, faith, in DISbelief.

Why don't you instead try investigating a little rather than focusing on me?
http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/

Would it really hurt if more people in the world were like these guys?
http://www.mercyships.org/our-people/patients/young-abel/


Datalife wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 11:37pm:

...... I will choose abject ignorance of the bible.

Stratos wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 11:48pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 11:39pm: The surface of which was only scratched in the bottom of my last post to you, that you chose to completely ignore Oh, and there are some freaky prophecies I admit.  There are also many that have not come true, which brings the whole concept of the Bible being infallible to a bit of a standstill however.

It's no secret, and widely understood throughout the Christian community, that some Bible prophesy has not been fulfilled yet. Like the Second Coming of Christ for example. Let's take a look at some prophecy that has been fulfilled, like the subject of the restoration of Jews to their land. Here's Isaac Newton on the subject, centuries before that restoration ever began, that he understood through Bible prophecy long before it was fulfilled:

Isaac Newton: “Hence I observe these things, first that the restauration of the Jewish nation so much spoken of by the old Prophets respects not the few Jews who were converted in the Apostles days, but the dispersed nation of the unbelieving Jews to be converted in the end when the fullness of the Gentiles shall enter, that is when the Gospel (upon the fall of Babylon) shall begin to be preached to all nations. Secondly that the prophecies of Isaiah described above by being here cited by the Apostle is limited to respect the time of the future conversion and restitution of the Jewish Nation.....”

Thomas Brightman 1562-1607: "The restoring of the Jewes and their callinge to the faith of Christ after the utter overthrow of their three enemies is set forth in livelie colours." "Shall they return to Jerusalem again?" "There is nothing more certain: the prophets do everywhere confirm it and beat upon it."

And there they are today, while only composing about two tenths of one percent of the world's population, they are once again ruling and reigning in their land just as prophesied, and as recognized by so many Christians that they would be, centuries before their restoration ever took place. Even becoming a geopolitical focus of the world.
http://www.zionismchristian.com/zionism_in_christianity.htm

How do you explain that?
Here's how scripture did, thousands of years in advance:

Ezekiel 36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them. 20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These [are] the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land. 21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. 22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not [this] for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.  23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Eze 36:34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by. 35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
http://www.zionismchristian.com/zionism_in_prophecy.htm

Stratos wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 11:46pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 11:39pm: The reason I am a Christian is the 1600 year record of YHWH to mankind, as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses, whose people have followed Him through two covenants, for 3500 years Funny, I thought the whole reason people became Christian was to be saved from their sin.

And the only way we could have ever known about the whole subject of the Gospel, is because it is revealed through the 1600 record of YHWH to mankind, thus that record is the reason I am a Christian.
Now why don't you stop your foolish and failed attempts at a gotcha, and try focusing on honest, sincere, and substantive responses, instead of wasting our time?

Well how about you answer the questions you have been avoiding then:

Are you still sticking to the completetly false figure that you claim, which was that 100000 to 180000 Christians are martyred every year, and most of these by Muslims

and why do you not old yourself to the same scrutiny regarding other faiths as you are trying to hold everyone else to?

I do still think it's weird that you would say a bunch of things regarding why you believe in Christianity and NOT reference salvation though.

Stratos wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 12:28am:

Well how about you answer the questions you have been avoiding then: Are you still sticking to the completetly false figure that you claim, which was that 100000 to 180000 Christians are martyred every year, and most of these by Muslims

I even edited the website, to help preclude people from running and hiding from the truth as you have, and the more important subject of the page, which is the REASON that Christians are being martyred all around the world. And that reason is the spirit of antichrist. It makes for a much more powerful page, because nobody can start out by diverting themselves away from the subject, with the irrelevancy of the number.
Thank you for that! Little insights into how people's minds work, and how they guide themselves to run and hide from truth, is what makes participating in forums now and then worthwhile, and an aid in what I have been called to do.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/muslim_persecution_of_christians.htm


Stratos wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 12:28am:

and why do you not old yourself to the same scrutiny regarding other faiths as you are trying to hold everyone else to?

My scrutiny in this forum section on Islam regards its being a specifically ANTI-religion.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/

I support that criticism through the 1600 year record of YHWH to mankind. The same record you are running and hiding from, in regard to the subject in my last post to you.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388621936/92#92


Stratos wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 12:28am:

I do still think it's weird that you would say a bunch of things regarding why you believe in Christianity and NOT reference salvation though.

Because the record is the source from which all else is delivered. Without the record there would be no such thing as Judaism or Christianity nearly 2,000 years later. So folks would not know how to begin a life in and with Jesus Christ, let alone there was even the possibility of being joined in one.

Double post. Admin is welcome to remove if so moved.

Accidental quote in edit. Admin please also feel free to scratch this one.

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 1:27am:

I even edited the website, to help preclude people from running and hiding from the truth as you have, and the more important subject of the page, which is the REASON that Christians are being martyred all around the world. And that reason is the spirit of antichrist. It makes for a much more powerful page, because nobody can start out by diverting themselves away from the subject, with the irrelevancy of the number.

I'm glad you have come to the conclusion that the statistic you originally quoted is wrong Pete.  We got there in the end.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 1:27am:

Stratos wrote Today at 12:28am: and why do you not old yourself to the same scrutiny regarding other faiths as you are trying to hold everyone else to? My scrutiny in this forum section on Islam regards its being a specifically ANTI-religion.

I am actually referring to you demand to know to the minute how long they have looked into Christianity in order to be informed enough to make a decision yay or nay like you do here:


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 11:13pm:

Could you indulge me with an answer to a question? Would you measure in terms of years, months, days, hours, or minutes, the amount of time you have devoted to the study of scripture, related archaeology, and such as fulfilled Bible prophecy, to decide against it in favor of atheism?

Yet when were asked the same question about another belief system you are unwilling to answer why.

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 1:27am:

The same record you are running and hiding from, in regard to the subject in my last post to you

Running from what?  I understand there are some prophecies in the Bible that appear to have come true, but this doesn't account for the many that have not, or did not come true, which should NEVER happen if you believe the Bible to be infallible.

Stratos wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 7:55am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 7th, 2014 at 1:27am: I even edited the website, to help preclude people from running and hiding from the truth as you have, and the more important subject of the page, which is the REASON that Christians are being martyred all around the world. And that reason is the spirit of antichrist. It makes for a much more powerful page, because nobody can start out by diverting themselves away from the subject, with the irrelevancy of the number. I'm glad you have come to the conclusion that the statistic you originally quoted is wrong Pete.  We got there in the end.

That's not where I got. I got to understand the unimportance of the number, and worse, the distraction it allows for people who want to run from the truth. While I don't believe you ever got to appreciating the vast number of the uncounted, throughout the undeveloped African continent as well as jungles and backwaters all around the world.


Stratos wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 7:55am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 7th, 2014 at 1:27am: Stratos wrote Today at 12:28am: and why do you not old yourself to the same scrutiny regarding other faiths as you are trying to hold everyone else to? My scrutiny in this forum section on Islam regards its being a specifically ANTI-religion. I am actually referring to you demand to know to the minute .....

That's a disappointing and surprising shame you would make that claim, particularly since I carefully guided you to a full understanding of my question, and thanked you for your thorough response. Instead you attempted to turn it into a gotcha, that predictably, backfired. Let me post the original to help you understand just whose failure it is in understanding:


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 10:03pm:

Would you measure in terms of years, months, days, hours, or minutes, the amount of time you have devoted to study[/b] of scripture, related archaeology, and such as fulfilled Bible prophecy, prior to your deciding to reject it in favor of agnosticism?

Stratos wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 7:55am:

....... how long they have looked into Christianity in order to be informed enough to make a decision yay or nay like you do here: Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 11:13pm: Could you indulge me with an answer to a question? Would you measure in terms of years, months, days, hours, or minutes, the amount of time you have devoted to the study of scripture, related archaeology, and such as fulfilled Bible prophecy, to decide against it in favor of atheism? Yet when were asked the same question about another belief system you are unwilling to answer why.

I did, indicating that I certainly don't find a compelling reason to abandon the God of Jews and Christians, as revealed through all of His prophets and witnesses in His 1600 year record, whose people have followed Him through two covenants for 3500 years, for a stand-alone 6th to 4th century BC individual man, the lack of historicity for which, calls into question his very existence.

Let alone that if you responded to my posts now and then, instead of ignoring them, it would help you understand why I'm a Christian:
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388621936/92#92

Oh, and the weeks prophecy is incredibly vague by the way, and massively open to interpretation.

Stratos wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 8:40am:

Oh, and the weeks prophecy is incredibly vague by the way, and massively open to interpretation.

What does any "weeks" prophecy have to do with the subject of the restoration of Jews to their land, as detailed in the post at the link I provided?

For those in here that are unfamiliar, the following  may be the prophetic math problem, to which he refers.
http://theism.net/article/17

Simpler questions are such as, how  did  the old covenant prophet know that Jesus would be born in Bethlehem? What are the odds of it being an accident?
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/bible_prophecy.htm

Edit: derp, wrong prophecy.  Sorry.

Going back to bed

Stratos wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 8:59am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 7th, 2014 at 8:52am: Stratos wrote on Jan 7th, 2014 at 8:40am: Oh, and the weeks prophecy is incredibly vague by the way, and massively open to interpretation. What does any "weeks" prophecy have to do with the subject of the restoration of Jews to their land, as detailed in the post at the link I provided? For those in here that are unfamiliar, the following  may be the prophetic math problem, to which he refers. http://theism.net/article/17 Sorry, you were mentioning it before like some of silver bullet, I was going to reply to it then but fell asleep

I find the restoration of Jews to their land, detailed in the post you keep ignoring, to be a much more obvious and impressive fulfillment of prophecy. Let alone Daniel's math pinning the dates of 1948 and 1967.
http://www.zionismchristian.com/daniel_prophesied_modern_zionism.htm

And for other forum members, the more obvious fulfillment of prophecy like the coming of the prophesied Messiah, and Jesus' crucifixion in old Testament prophecy and such, that should be givens to Stratos:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 9:04am:

And for other forum members, the more obvious fulfillment of prophecy like the coming of the prophesied Messiah, and Jesus' crucifixion in old Testament prophecy and such, that should be givens to Stratos:

Are psalms prophecy now are they? 


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 9:04am:

I find the restoration of Jews to their land, detailed in the post you keep ignoring, to be a much more obvious and impressive fulfillment of prophecy. Let alone Daniel's math pinning the dates of 1948 and 1967.

Lets have a look at what was ACTUALLY prophesied in Daniel shall we?


Quote:

At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.” 5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?” 7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time.[b] When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”

The bolded section is what you interpret at 2500 years.  Funny I don't recall anyone rising from the dead in 1948 or 1967.  Could you point out where this is a prophecy regarding the restoration of Israel in particular? because seriously in context it seems to point towards an end times judgement that anything else what with the dead rising and being judged going on.

That is also assuming that the 2500 years is correct, as that is far from a standard interpretation of that particular verse.  I can see how you cold justify is to get to that figure, but you could use the same logic and get a multitude of different dates as the word translated to the word "time" is not specific.

To get the thread back on subject


Quote:

"NSW Police is aware of Millatu Ibrahim, a Salafist group active in Europe, specifically Germany," a spokeswoman said. "However, the group is not believed to be active in NSW." Millatu Ibrahim Perth's website was recently closed down, but it has used its Facebook page to declare a hatred of disbelievers. "We hate the Kuffar and everything that they worship," it reads. "We hate their constitutions, we reject their way of life, we reject their political systems, we reject their parliaments, we reject their democracy, capitalism, liberalism, socialism, communism and every other filthy disbelieving 'ism' that has come to act as a hindrance from Islam, the pure religion of Allah to rule from the east to the west." Al-Risalah has claimed its imam is terrorist Bilal Khazal, who was sentenced to 12 years' jail in 2008 after compiling a book promoting violence against non-Muslims, and has hosted several other radical sheiks. Al-Furqan was raided by police as part of a counter-terrorism operation in 2012. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/policy/saudilinked-aussie-sheik-junaid-thorne-encourages-jihadists/story-fn59nm2j-1226796166560#

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 11:13pm:

Adamant wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 11:09pm: Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 10:35pm: Adamant wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 10:32pm: Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 10:03pm: You have mentioned that you are agnostic. Could you indulge me with an answer to a question, that Datalife and adamant for some reason, failed to answer? What have I failed to answer Pete? The question that closed my reply to you: ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388621936/67#67 Upon reflection I did answer your questions Pete, again I ask would you like a photo of a footprint that is pre god? But surely even you can see that your amusing question didn't answer my question which was: Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 6th, 2014 at 5:34am: Could you indulge me with an answer to a question? Would you measure in terms of years, months, days, hours, or minutes, the amount of time you have devoted to the study of scripture, related archaeology, and such as fulfilled Bible prophecy, to decide against it in favor of atheism?

I contemplated god from the age of 9 to about 19 years of age. I read the old testament a few times. I was in the choir of my village. Todays history does not back up the old Testament. Abraham and Moses never existed, Please mate don't take this further.

Stratos wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 2:01pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 7th, 2014 at 9:04am: And for other forum members, the more obvious fulfillment of prophecy like the coming of the prophesied Messiah, and Jesus' crucifixion in old Testament prophecy and such, that should be givens to Stratos: Are psalms prophecy now are they?

Yes. Quite conspicuously so. Your not realizing that makes me wonder what kind of church you attended:

The following link includes both the KJV as well as the Tanach published by a very anti-Christian group of Jews engaged in "counter-missionary education":
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm

KJV Psalms 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring?

Fulfilled as recorded by Matthew:

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.   17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me.   18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Now that was penned many centuries before Jesus was crucified, and even centuries before crucifixion was ever even invented!

Mat 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

Your not knowing there is prophecy in Psalms - indeed one of the most stunning Messianic prophesies - makes it a little hard to imagine that you ever even read the New Testament that confirms it. If you abandoned Jesus when you were a young man, perhaps it's time to take another look at the evidence, and see the reasons why 1/3 of mankind believe Christ was crucified, died and was resurrected from the grave.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/bible_prophecy.htm

Datalife wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 2:18pm:

To get the thread back on subject Quote: "NSW Police is aware of Millatu Ibrahim, a Salafist group active in Europe, specifically Germany," a spokeswoman said. "However, the group is not believed to be active in NSW." Millatu Ibrahim Perth's website was recently closed down, but it has used its Facebook page to declare a hatred of disbelievers. "We hate the Kuffar and everything that they worship," it reads. "We hate their constitutions, we reject their way of life, we reject their political systems, we reject their parliaments, we reject their democracy, capitalism, liberalism, socialism, communism and every other filthy disbelieving 'ism' that has come to act as a hindrance from Islam, the pure religion of Allah to rule from the east to the west." Al-Risalah has claimed its imam is terrorist Bilal Khazal, who was sentenced to 12 years' jail in 2008 after compiling a book promoting violence against non-Muslims, and has hosted several other radical sheiks. Al-Furqan was raided by police as part of a counter-terrorism operation in 2012. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/policy/saudilinked-aussie-sheik-junaid-thorne-encourages-jihadists/story-fn59nm2j-1226796166560#

By hating the kuffar Muhammad's followers are simply doing their best to do as Muhammad did as explored in this post:
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388997343/3#3

(for gandalf and wallly if they happened to notice this thread)
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm

If you consider your lack of knowledge of the stunning prophecy of Christ's crucifixion in Psalms, and this time are willing to actually consider the evidence that I am going to present, I think I can help you find your way back home. But you have to open your eyes, break out a Berean spirit, and set aside your prior indoctrination, that may well be part of the reason you abandoned Jesus. If you try reading with a neutral attitude this time I believe you will benefit greatly.

For openers, you will not be well served by using a New Age Bible version, as a comparison of the germane section will reveal. Let's stick with the KJV which is the most highly and widely regarded English version, and standard by which all others are measured.


Stratos wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 2:01pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 7th, 2014 at 9:04am: I find the restoration of Jews to their land, detailed in the post you keep ignoring, to be a much more obvious and impressive fulfillment of prophecy. Let alone Daniel's math pinning the dates of 1948 and 1967. Lets have a look at what was ACTUALLY prophesied in Daniel shall we? Quote: At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.” 5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?” 7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”

The NIV from which you quote that was purchased by Rupert Murdoch who collects the royalties, is just another pop-Bible that was, sadly, created primarily with some doctrinal, but primarily a profit, motive. Few things in the literary world are more profitable than creating yet another version of the largest selling book in the history of mankind. So let's look at the difference:

KJV Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

And that's just what happened. The scattered power of the holy people (Jews were the only holy people in Daniel's day) was accomplished, or came to an end, in 1967 when they gained control of Jerusalem completing their consolidation of power over their covenant land.


Stratos wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 2:01pm:

The bolded section is what you interpret at 2500 years.  Funny I don't recall anyone rising from the dead in 1948 or 1967.  Could you point out where this is a prophecy regarding the restoration of Israel in particular? because seriously in context it seems to point towards an end times judgement that anything else what with the dead rising and being judged going on.

A good observation as explained just a couple of verses later. What the end of the shattered power of the Jews marks, is the beginning of what Daniel's prophecy calls the "time of the end":

Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.


Stratos wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 2:01pm:

That is also assuming that the 2500 years is correct, .......

Over the last couple of centuries there has been far too much proclaiming by indoctrinated men of what is "correct" and what is not. A more Berean spirited and open approach would be to ask "what if" that were correct. What might we learn then?

In the 19th century two pop-eschatologies began to come into vogue, and by the 20th century they became universal. These are the approaches of futurism and preterism, that displaced the traditional historicist approach to New Testament prophecy, which is the same approach that ALL Jews and Christians take for Old Testament prophecy.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/

This was prophesied: 2 Timothy 4:4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Through those two pop-approaches the church came to believe that a "time, times and a half" indicated simply 3-1/2 years. But what happens when we look at the Tanach to see what Hebrew scholars believe that ancient Hebrew idiom indicates?

Continued in the next post.

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 10:50pm:

The NIV from which you quote that was purchased by Rupert Murdoch who collects the royalties, is just another pop-Bible that was, sadly, created primarily with some doctrinal, but primarily a profit, motive. Few things in the literary world are more profitable than creating yet another version of the largest selling book in the history of mankind. So let's look at the difference:

I notice you criticised the translation and not the content of my post, which was why the dead did not rise as per the prophesy.

I looked at some other translations and noticed why:

NKJ: And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

KJ:   And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

CJB:  Many of those sleeping in the dust of the earth will awaken, some to everlasting life and some to everlasting shame and abhorrence. 3 But those who can discern will shine like the brightness of heaven’s dome, and those who turn many to righteousness like the stars forever and ever.

OJB  And rabbim of them that sleep in the admat aphar (dust of the ground) shall awake, some to Chayyei Olam (Everlasting Life), and some to reproaches (shames) and Dera’on Olam (Everlasting Contempt, Abhorrence, Aversion, i.e., Everlasting Gehinnom.[T.N. Onesh Olam is here made more fearsome in light of the prevalent neglect of Scripture in favor of non-Biblical studies]

i picked those mostly at random because they all say the same thing: that the dead will rise, which notably did NOT happen in the years you claim fulfilled the prophesy

I told you the post would be continued but you didn't wait. The resurrection of the dead and Second Coming of Christ come at the end of what Daniel described as the "time of the end". Now let's look at how Hebrew scholars interpret that Hebrew idiom:

Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clad in linen, who was above the waters of the river, and he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens, and he swore by the Life of the world, that in the time of [two] times and a half, and when they have ended shattering the strength of the holy people, all these will end.

So Hebrew scholars understand that to indicate a factor of 2-1/2. However they readily admit that their scriptures are silent on just what a "time" is.


wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 2:01pm:

....... as that is far from a standard interpretation of that particular verse.  I can see how you cold justify is to get to that figure, but you could use the same logic and get a multitude of different dates as the word translated to the word "time" is not specific.

That's exactly right. We could experiment with different lengths of time and with various understandings of the world "time". Now while those old covenant saints may be sovereignly blinded to the Gospel, you and I aren't. In the New Testament we find:

2 Peter 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day (that is, hemera) [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The Greek word that is translated as "day" in the above verse is "hemera".  It is an ambiguous word, the definition of which, is determined by it's context.
In 3 other passages in the KJV it is translated as "time" (in 12 verses in the NASB).

From Strong's:
New Testament Greek Definition:
2250 hemera {hay-mer'-ah}
from (with 5610 implied) of a derivative of hemai (to sit,
akin to the base of 1476) meaning tame, i.e. gentle;
TDNT - 2:943,309; n f
AV - day 355, daily + 2596 15, time 3, not tr 2, misc 14; 389

So WHAT IF we TRY understanding a "time" as a thousand years? What might we come up with?

If we look back to the beginning of the passage in Daniel we find:

Daniel 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing [was] true, but the time appointed [was] long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision.

I think you and I would both agree that the typical "church" understanding of 3-1/2 years, would hardly qualify as a long appointed time, in prophecy. But what happens IF we travel forward in time 2500 years from the "third year of Cyrus"?

Bible handbooks that were published prior to 1948 pin the first year of Cyrus at 537-536 BC, making the third year of Cyrus 534-533 BC. So what happens IF we consider 2500 years forward in time from 534-533 BC?

2500 -533 = 1967

1967 was the year of the six-day war which "ended shattering the strength of the holy people". Isn't that surprising? If you want to add a "zero year" start from the other side of the range at 534 BC.

Now look at the verse I posted earlier:

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

From the math problem we can see that NOBODY could have done other than scratch their heads over the math, UNTIL after 1967 had come to pass, and we could see the problem in HINDSIGHT. So it seems the seal on the book of Daniel wasn't opened by a guy named John Nelson Darby (the "father" of futurism), or Jesuit Francisco Ribera (credited with preterism in the modern "church"), so no man could take credit. Rather the seal on the book of Daniel was opened through the simple passage of time, and fulfillment of prophecy in HINDSIGHT! Isn't that a wonderful and amazing prophecy?

Reformers like Matthew Henry and Isaac Newton looked upon the times in their future - upon the times in which we live - with what would seem no small measure of envy:

http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm#reformers_time_of_end

Matthew Henry: "VI. That this prophecy of those times, though sealed up now, would be of great use to those that should live then, v. 4. Daniel must now shut up the words and seal the book.....
He must seal the book because it would not be understood, and therefore would not be regarded, till the things contained in it were accomplished.....
Those things of God which are now dark and obscure will hereafter be made clear, and easy to be understood. Truth is the daughter of time. Scripture prophecies will be expounded by the accomplishment of them; therefore they are given, and for that explication they are reserved."

Isaac Newton: ".....these Prophecies of Daniel and John should not be understood till the time of the end: .... But in the very end, the Prophecy should be so far interpreted as to convince many.

Isn't that wonder full?! And it required the NT to understand the OT:

Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 11:22pm:

I told you the post would be continued but you didn't wait.

Well seeing as you didn't address the issue of the prophecy not actually being complete in your second post I don't see a problem.

You simultaneously expressed ignorance and arrogance when you quipped:


Stratos wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 2:01pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 7th, 2014 at 9:04am: And for other forum members, the more obvious fulfillment of prophecy like the coming of the prophesied Messiah, and Jesus' crucifixion in old Testament prophecy and such, that should be givens to Stratos: Are psalms prophecy now are they?

Yet after I showed you the miracle of the prophecy in Psalms 22, and its New Testament fulfillment, from Jesus' crucifixion right down to His garments being parted and lots being cast for the parts, you simply ignored the post:
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388621936/108#108

The miracle of a prophecy, that along with Isaiah 53 and others, has brought so many Jews into relationship with Jesus Christ throughout the Christian era. Many Jews that came to Christ through that conspicuous truth, even though they were largely unfamiliar with the New Testament.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/isaiah_53.htm

But you, who even claims to have been exposed to the New Testament to some extent, simply ignores the prophetic miracle contained in Psalms 22 and moves on as it it was never posted, just as you have so many of my other posts and parts of posts to you. You, unlike those previously blinded Messianic Jews, are a Gentile that is in full knowledge of the Gospel, but then rejects Jesus. Indeed through the spirit of antichrist even goes out and campaigns against the Gospel.

Thus when you stand in judgment before the very Son of God that you now deny, in all likelihood you will not be allowed the excuse of ignorance, and thereby perhaps be excused by it. Like someone that lives in a remote village that was never brought the Gospel, or someone that is too young or mentally challenged to understand:

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

In all likelihood you will stand in judgment as being fully responsible, and in complete knowledge, but then having turned around and rejected Jesus:

2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Romans 1: 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/gospel_of_john.htm

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 4:54am:

In all likelihood you will stand in judgment as being fully responsible, and in complete knowledge, but then having turned around and rejected Jesus:

Ah yes, good ol' hellfire threats.  That'll encourage me to join the church again, sure I'll get right on that.

Hey Pete, you never actually addressed the question of the phophecy in Daniel actually not being fulfilled.  The angel reveals what will happened after time, time and a half (2500 according to you), which includes the dead rising and being judged, Daniel asks when it will happen and the angel tells him to calm his farm and it will be revealed. 

unless I missed something pretty drastic, that didn't happen, so why is the prophecy wrong?

Stratos wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 7:54am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 8th, 2014 at 4:54am: In all likelihood you will stand in judgment as being fully responsible, and in complete knowledge, but then having turned around and rejected Jesus: Ah yes, good ol' hellfire threats.  That'll encourage me to join the church again, sure I'll get right on that.

I pointed out to you the unique nature of your position through scripture so you could get a better idea of what you are up against, as compared to some backwater dweller that was never brought, or never understood, the Gospel.


Stratos wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 7:54am:

Hey Pete, you never actually addressed the question of the phophecy in Daniel actually not being fulfilled.

Yes I did:


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 11:22pm:

I told you the post would be continued but you didn't wait. The resurrection of the dead and Second Coming of Christ come at the end of what Daniel described as the "time of the end".

Stratos wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 7:54am:

The angel reveals what will happened after time, time and a half (2500 according to you), .....

When we entered the "time of the end", not the end.


Stratos wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 7:54am:

.... which includes the dead rising and being judged, Daniel asks when it will happen and the angel tells him to calm his farm and it will be revealed.  unless I missed something pretty drastic, that didn't happen, so why is the prophecy wrong?

You probably missed the whole post, as your replies would suggest you do all my posts to you.
Daniel's book was sealed until the "time of the end":

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

So nobody on earth could fully understand the book of Daniel until the time of the end, as observed by Matthew Henry and Isaac Newton, for example, that I quoted. While the "church" bought into the pop-eschatologies of preterism and futurism, that blinded it to the math, as well as blinding it to Muhammad being the prophesied false prophet, and his Islamic kingdom "beast" the final foe of God's people:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm
Unlike those Berean spirited Reformers that I quoted, today's pop-indoctrinated church all parading around under the banner of having all the answers to the book of Daniel, even though futurists in actually follow 19th century John Nelson Darby, and preterists follow 17th century Roman Catholic Jesuit Luis Alcazar. Their supersessionist doctrine even preventing them from believing the stunning reality of the restoration of Jews to their land is of the Lord.
http://www.christianeschatology.com/supersessionism_replacement_theology.htm
Both doctrines being contrary the TRADITIONAL approach of historicism to New Testament prophecy. Both doctrines blinding the "church" to nearly 2,000 years of Christian era history as having anything to do with Bible prophecy:
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4  And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

This is likely in no small measure a large part of the reason you abandoned the "church". Teachings about some future boogieman that puts computer chips in folks foreheads and such nonsense. Christiahs getting whisked away in a "pre-tribulation" "rapture". Or the preterist assertion that "The" "Antichrist" was Nero in the 1st century, blinding folks to the fact that there are 1.5 billion antichrists in the world today in Islam alone. And that number doesn't include atheists. Many thus disillusioned by pop-eschatology, return to Christ on fire for the Lord, after considering all Bible prophecy UNIFORMLY through the tradition of historicism as those great men of God like Matthew Henry, Isaac Newton and Christians throughout the Christian era approached New Testament prophecy.

I patiently explained to you that nobody could see the fulfillment of the mathematical solution to the problem that Daniel presented, until after 1967 had passed, and now that it has come to pass and we find ourselves in the "time of the end" we can easily understand it mathematically as well as textually. It is further confirmed in stunning fashion by the physical fulfillment of Jews being restored to their covenant land, that was anticipated by Christians through prophecy, centuries before that restoration ever began.
http://www.zionismchristian.com/zionism_in_christianity.htm

This mathematical, textual, and physical reality of the restoration of Jews to their land, indicates we may well be in what Daniel described as the "time of the end", and perhaps not far away from the resurrection of the dead and the second coming of Christ.

Yet just like you ignored the stunning prophecy in Psalms 22, you dither on in your misunderstanding of Daniel, while ignoring the math, text, and physical matter of fact of Jews being restored to their land.
http://www.zionismchristian.com/daniel_prophesied_modern_zionism.htm

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 9:39pm:

I pointed out to you the unique nature of your position through scripture so you could get a better idea of what you are up against, as compared to some backwater dweller that was never brought, or never understood, the Gospel.

You know scripture, and you know by saying that you might as well say, "go to hell", exactly what you are implying.  Stop trying to weasel out of it, we both know what you meant.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 9:39pm:

Yes I did:

ah, no you didn't.  Once again lets break down the scripture.  I thought you were supposed to be good at this Pete?

I'll skip the prophecy and look at what happens in response to it, as we both know what is mentioned, and it clearly includes the dead rising and being judged.

"Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?”

As in when will these things occur.

then the reply is

"Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished."

interpreted by you as 2500 years.  Either you have a very weird definition of fulfillment, your timeline that 2500 years is wrong, or the prophecy is yet incomplete.  So which is it?

Is the prophecy wrong?
Is your definition of fulfillment wrong?
Or is your assumption that the prophecy means 2500 years wrong? 

Unless we accidentally the apocalypse

Stratos wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 10:03pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 8th, 2014 at 9:39pm: I pointed out to you the unique nature of your position through scripture so you could get a better idea of what you are up against, as compared to some backwater dweller that was never brought, or never understood, the Gospel. You know scripture, and you know by saying that you might as well say, "go to hell", ......

On the contrary. I am trying to warn you about that fate through scripture. I can't know God's judgments nor did I proclaim to. I am warning you as to what scripture warns. If I didn't love you, and wasn't concerned about you, why would I bother?

If I didn't love Muslims, why would I bother warning them about the STAND-ALONE false prophet Muhammad, proclaiming the exact opposite of the whole subject of the Gospel and blaspheming the Son of God?


Stratos wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 10:03pm:

..... exactly what you are implying.  Stop trying to weasel out of it, we both know what you meant. Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 8th, 2014 at 9:39pm: Yes I did: ah, no you didn't.  Once again lets break down the scripture.  I thought you were supposed to be good at this Pete? I'll skip the prophecy and look at what happens in response to it, as we both know what is mentioned, and it clearly includes the dead rising and being judged. "Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?” As in when will these things occur. then the reply is "Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished."

I don't know why you insist on Rupert Murdoch's Bible when I already pointed out to you the most egregious error of this particular verse, which is likely part of the reason you refuse to address the restoration of Jews to their land, and restoration of their strength and power which continues to be fulfilled with nearly half of the Jews in the world today living in Israel:

KJV Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.

Tanach: Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clad in linen, who was above the waters of the river, and he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens, and he swore by the Life of the world, that in the time of [two] times and a half, and when they have ended shattering the strength of the holy people, all these will end.

The fulfillment of the shattered strength of the holy people occurred in 1967 when they were restored to power over Jerusalem, which marked our entry into what Daniel's prophecy describes as the "time of the end". Here's the way Luke put it:

Luke 21:24  And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Revelation 11:2: But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.

Confirmed mathematically:
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm#court_without


Stratos wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 10:03pm:

interpreted by you as 2500 years.

Which I pointed out is supported by the math - right to the year - the text, as well as the physical matter of fact of Jews being restored to their land which "ended shattering the strength of the holy people".
Third year of Cyrus 533BC + 2500 years = 1967


Stratos wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 10:03pm:

Either you have a very weird definition of fulfillment, your timeline that 2500 years is wrong, or the prophecy is yet incomplete.  So which is it? Is the prophecy wrong? Is your definition of fulfillment wrong? Or is your assumption that the prophecy means 2500 years wrong?  Unless we accidentally the apocalypse

I recommend you go on vacation to Syria, Iran, Nigeria or Somalia.

AP - December 06, 2006 MOGADISHU, Somalia - "Residents of a southern Somalia town who do not pray five times a day will be beheaded, an Islamic courts official said Wednesday, adding the edict will be implemented in three days."
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/great_tribulation.htm

It would help if you told me what eschatology the "church" that you formerly attended ascribed to. Was it futurism or partial preterism?
http://www.christianeschatology.com/

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 10:23pm:

I don't know why you insist on Rupert Murdoch's Bible

He owns NIV right?


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 10:23pm:

restoration of Jews to their land, and restoration of their strength and power:

No I'm not ignoring it.  It truly is uncanny the way the dates line up.  I'm just curious as to why the rest of the prophecy does not, as you are again failing to recognise that the prophecy is incomplete, as it clearly states that after time, time and a half, the dead will rise and be judged.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 10:23pm:

I recommend you go on vacation to Syria, Iran, Nigeria or Somalia.

Oh look, something completely irrelevant to the discussion of biblical prophecy.  here is something equally as irrelevant. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Bill

Stratos wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 10:57pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 8th, 2014 at 10:23pm: I don't know why you insist on Rupert Murdoch's Bible He owns NIV right?

Why avoid the subject of it being a profitable corrupt pop-Bible - that corrupted that verse to being the opposite of what it says - by dwelling on who profits from it?
https://www.google.com/#q=rupert+murdoch+bought+the+NIV


Stratos wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 10:57pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 8th, 2014 at 10:23pm: restoration of Jews to their land, and restoration of their strength and power: No I'm not ignoring it.  It truly is uncanny the way the dates line up.

And unlike Islam, in which not a single witness ever heard Muhammad receive a single "revelation", and never witnessed such as his magic flying donkey-mule, scripture often offers two or more witnesses.

Another of Daniel's dreams begins:
(KJV) Daniel 7:1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, [and] told the sum of the matters.

Supportable dating for the first year of Belshazzar is 553-552 BC

Later in this dream we read:
(KJV)  Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

2500 - 552 = 1948 (553 adding a "zero year") The restoration of the Jews to their covenant land, declaring an independent Israel.  End of the Jews being given into his (Satan through gentile oppressors) hand and being scattered among the "wilderness" of the nations.

Two parallel problems that span 2500 years that pin the dates right to the year, that are perfectly supported textually, as well as through the historical matter of fact of Jews being restored to power over their covenant land
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/mathematical_precision_of_prophecy.htm

Again Isaac Newton: "Daniel was commanded to shut up and seal, till the time of the end. Daniel sealed it until the time of the end; {Daniel 12:4, 9} and until that time comes, the Lamb is opening the seals:....
All which is as much as to say, that these Prophecies of Daniel and John should not be understood till the time of the end: .... But in the very end, the Prophecy should be so far interpreted as to convince many." (Part II. Observations Upon the Apocalypse of St. John. Chap 1)
http://www.christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm#reformers_time_of_end

Yahweh's covenant people restored to their covenant land, even while many are unfaithful and in unbelief, restored not for their sakes but for the sake of Yahweh's Holy name.
http://www.zionismchristian.com/zionism_in_prophecy.htm


Stratos wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 10:57pm:

I'm just curious as to why the rest of the prophecy does not, as you are again failing to recognise that the prophecy is incomplete, as it clearly states that after time, time and a half, the dead will rise and be judged. Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 8th, 2014 at 10:23pm: I recommend you go on vacation to Syria, Iran, Nigeria or Somalia. Oh look, something completely irrelevant to the discussion of biblical prophecy.  here is something equally as irrelevant.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Bill

Not at all irrelevant. My effort was to point out that great tribulation is not reserved for some 7-year period yet in our future, nor was it all over and done with in the 1st century with Nero.

That's why I asked which eschatology your former "church" held. Was it futurism or preterism?

And why do you continue to ignore the Psalms 22 prophecy of Jesus' crucifixion, in post after post?
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm

That is just one prophecy, when estimates suggest that 1/4 of the Bible is prophecy, with much of it having been fulfilled. So we haven't even scratched the surface.

You are ignoring the evidence, because of your faith in DISbelief. Why not try actively and honestly actually considering all of the evidence with an open mind instead?
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/bible_prophecy.htm

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 11:34pm:

Why avoid the subject of it being a profitable corrupt pop-Bible, by dwelling on who makes the money?

Your ignorance is nothing short of astounding Pete.  My quote before which you attributed to as the NIV twice now was from the NKJ Bible, not the NIV


Stratos wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 10:03pm:

"Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?”

Stratos wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 10:03pm:

"Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished."

Go and check if you like, because you clearly didn't to begin with.

THIS is the NIV version


Quote:

5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled? 7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time.[b] When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”

I wonder why you even care who publishes the different versions seeing you can't tell the difference

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 7^th, 2014 at 9:04am:

Stratos wrote on Jan 7th, 2014 at 8:59am: Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 7th, 2014 at 8:52am: Stratos wrote on Jan 7th, 2014 at 8:40am: Oh, and the weeks prophecy is incredibly vague by the way, and massively open to interpretation. What does any "weeks" prophecy have to do with the subject of the restoration of Jews to their land, as detailed in the post at the link I provided? For those in here that are unfamiliar, the following  may be the prophetic math problem, to which he refers. http://theism.net/article/17 Sorry, you were mentioning it before like some of silver bullet, I was going to reply to it then but fell asleep I find the restoration of Jews to their land, detailed in the post you keep ignoring, to be a much more obvious and impressive fulfillment of prophecy. Let alone Daniel's math pinning the dates of 1948 and 1967. http://www.zionismchristian.com/daniel_prophesied_modern_zionism.htm And for other forum members, the more obvious fulfillment of prophecy like the coming of the prophesied Messiah, and Jesus' crucifixion in old Testament prophecy and such, that should be givens to Stratos: http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm

Actually Pete, the restoration doesn't actually fit with the original OT Jewish prophecy and won't work as a sign.

For it to work, the Messiah would have to have physically LEAD the people of Israel back to the Promised Land. That's why so many of the ultra-orthodox Jews are unhappy with the existence of modern Israel.

Stratos wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 11:44pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 8th, 2014 at 11:34pm: Why avoid the subject of it being a profitable corrupt pop-Bible, by dwelling on who makes the money? Your ignorance is nothing short of astounding Pete.

Why don't you try growing up a little?


Stratos wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 11:44pm:

My quote before which you attributed to as the NIV twice now was from the NKJ Bible, not the NIV

Have you noticed how Satan keeps dragging you off into irrelevancy, in order to run and hide from the truth of the subject? First it was the number of Christians being martyred around the world every year, which is as irrelevant as the number of Jews that were murdered in the holocaust, having anything to do with THE REASON they were murdered - which is hatred of Jews.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm#hitler_and_the_mufti

Now you ignore the stunning evidence that has been presented to you through prophecy, to argue in favor of corrupt pop-Bible versions.

But the argument is the same regarding ALL CORRUPT POP-MODERN BIBLE VERSIONS from which men profit. Your post simply illustrates that the NKJV is just as corrupt as the NIV in regard to the verse in question. Arguing as if my lapse in memory regarding WHICH CORRUPT VERSION you quoted was relevant, when they are BOTH CORRUPT POP-BIBLE VERSIONS.

Perhaps this is a new subject to you, and so you presumed I am the only critic of corrupt pop-bible versions, but I am not. I wonder if your choice of Bible versions could be a contributing factor to your having abandoned Jesus? No shortage would say so.
https://www.google.com/#q=corrupt+modern+bible+versions

That's why a person has to put some effort into discernment and seeking out the truth, particularly in these times in which we find ourselves, since what is going on is just as prophesied:

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4  And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/traditional_framework.htm

That's why I included the KJV as well as the Tanach.
Here's a Hebrew/English interlinear. It doesn't copy and paste very well so you will have to visit the link. If you don't want to click on it but prefer to keep running and hiding from truth, suffice it to say that not surprisingly, it supports the KJV and the Tanach.
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm


Stratos wrote on Jan 8^th, 2014 at 11:44pm:

Stratos wrote on Jan 8th, 2014 at 10:03pm: "Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?” Stratos wrote on Jan 8th, 2014 at 10:03pm: "Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished." Go and check if you like, because you clearly didn't to begin with. THIS is the NIV version Quote: 5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled? 7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.” I wonder why you even care who publishes the different versions seeing you can't tell the difference

It obviously doesn't matter who publishes these two corrupt pop-versions, because there is essentially no difference between the corruption of the NKJV and the corruption of the NIV regarding that verse, as the enlarged bold font demonstrates. It boils down to modern men, copying the corrupt machinations of other modern men, while trying to change it enough to avoid being sued for copyright infringement.

It's important for you to see how Satan has yet again dragged you off on yet another irrelevant and unimportant tangent, in your continuing effort to run and hide from the stunning mathematical, textual and historical fulfillment of prophecy I have presented, to instead put your effort into yet another foolish and irrelevant gotcha. Why not focus in the subjects of the posts instead?
Why not start with the prophecy of the crucifixion of Christ in Psalms that you keep making excuses, for and to yourself, to ignore?
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 12:22am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 7th, 2014 at 9:04am: Stratos wrote on Jan 7th, 2014 at 8:59am: Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 7th, 2014 at 8:52am: Stratos wrote on Jan 7th, 2014 at 8:40am: Oh, and the weeks prophecy is incredibly vague by the way, and massively open to interpretation. What does any "weeks" prophecy have to do with the subject of the restoration of Jews to their land, as detailed in the post at the link I provided? For those in here that are unfamiliar, the following  may be the prophetic math problem, to which he refers. http://theism.net/article/17 Sorry, you were mentioning it before like some of silver bullet, I was going to reply to it then but fell asleep I find the restoration of Jews to their land, detailed in the post you keep ignoring, to be a much more obvious and impressive fulfillment of prophecy. Let alone Daniel's math pinning the dates of 1948 and 1967. http://www.zionismchristian.com/daniel_prophesied_modern_zionism.htm And for other forum members, the more obvious fulfillment of prophecy like the coming of the prophesied Messiah, and Jesus' crucifixion in old Testament prophecy and such, that should be givens to Stratos: http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm Actually Pete, the restoration doesn't actually fit with the original OT Jewish prophecy and won't work as a sign. For it to work, the Messiah would have to have physically LEAD the people of Israel back to the Promised Land. That's why so many of the ultra-orthodox Jews are unhappy with the existence of modern Israel.

Hi gizmo. I am well aware of self-proclaimed "orthodox" anti-Zionist Jewish cults, like the Neturei Karta, as I minister to Muslims who love to trot them out. They fruit the anti-Zionist tree along with the rest of the fruit of the anti-Zionist tree.

Insisting on their tradition and interpretation, while divorcing themselves from objective reality, which even blinds them to their arch enemy.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/islam_and_jews.htm

Not that dissimilar to the "church" being blinded to the enemy through pop-eschatology that began to come into vogue in the 19th century:
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/muhammad_islam_in_bible_prophecy.htm#the_conflict

Just as it was in the 1st century when the tradition of the Pharisees, caused them believe their Messiah would come as a mighty and powerful conquering king, that in turn caused them to reject Jesus as their Messiah in spite of all of His miracles and much more. And even today, in spite of the the Psalms prophecy at the link you quoted, and many other Messianic prophesies. Though many have come to Christ as groups like "Jews for Jesus" attest. Many through prophesies like Psalms 22 and Isaiah 53.
http://www.islamandthetruth.com/isaiah_53.htm

Yet here we are today, with 1/3 of the world's population believing Christ was crucified, died, and was resurrected from the dead. Recognizing Jesus as the King of Kings. And that is just the number of self-proclaimed Christians (many of whom have not been born again), let alone that 1/3 portion of mankind doesn't take into account, the number of people that believe the Gospel, but recognize they are unrepentant, and thus are honest enough with themselves to not proclaim themselves to be Christian.

While 2/10 of 1% of the world's population is composed of Jews, and that number even includes atheist, agnostic, as well as faithful Jews. Yet there they are today, ruling and reigning in Israel just as prophesied, with that tiny strip of land emerging from the utter desolation of 200 years ago, to becoming one of the most prosperous and technologically advanced economies, and a geopolitical focus of the world.
http://www.zionismchristian.com/zionism_in_prophecy.htm

The Messiah did indeed build His temple in three days, while He ushered in His kingdom in the 1st century, and His people are in His kingdom unto today.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/temple_of_god.htm

It would help me with my responses to you if I knew whether you were a Muslim or Christian, or a faithful Jew or some other religion, or atheist or agnostic. And if Christian, which eschatology your church ascribes to (if you don't know, then perhaps which denomination would help).
http://www.christianeschatology.com/

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 12:55am:

First it was the number of Christians being martyred around the world every year

Oh yes, sorry, I should just assume assume everything you say is correct regardless of whatever the truth actually happens to be.  Literally everything about your original claim was factually wrong, and I'm glad you have decided to not use lies to try and support that argument anymore.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 12:55am:

Now you ignore the stunning evidence that has been presented to you through prophecy, to argue in favor of corrupt pop-Bible versions.

No no, you said Murdoch.  I may be wrong, but i'm pretty sure that Murdoch doesn't publish the NKJ version.  But apparently you have some kind of issue with that too?  Surely Gideons are doing Satan's work too by distributing this "Bible" for free worldwide ::)

Funnily enough, it wouldn't matter which edition I was using, for the all say the same thing.

To Daneil- dead men gonna rise and be judged yo
Daniel- Wow really? when is this going to be finished?
To Daneil- Time, time and a half

So why have the dead not risen as per the prophecy? 
Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 12:55am:

That's why I included the KJV as well as the Tanach. Here's a Hebrew/English interlinear. It doesn't copy and paste very well so you will have to visit the link

Interesting link.  Still supports my argument that as Daniel clearly is asking when the END of the prophecy is, that the dead should ahve risen and been judged by now

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 12:55am:

Why not start with the prophecy of the crucifixion of Christ in Psalms that you keep making excuses, for and to yourself, to ignore?

I have said that it does seem uncannily like the crucifixion of Jesus, but there is a lot of it that does not seem to quite fit, or can be easily explained in a way that does NOT involve the crucifixion of Jesus

For starters, it does mention crucifixion specifically, but piercing hands and feet.  I'm sure as long as there have been nails and hammers humans have been doing this to each other.

Secondly, the writers of the New Testament would have been aware of these verses and could easily have put in the other details in, such as the casting of lots etc could have been added quite easily into the account during the 50 or so years between Jesus' death and the writing down of the Gospels.

Stratos wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 8:31am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 9th, 2014 at 12:55am: Why not start with the prophecy of the crucifixion of Christ in Psalms that you keep making excuses, for and to yourself, to ignore? I have said that it does seem uncannily like the crucifixion of Jesus, but there is a lot of it that does not seem to quite fit, or can be easily explained in a way that does NOT involve the crucifixion of Jesus For starters, it does mention crucifixion specifically, but piercing hands and feet.  I'm sure as long as there have been nails and hammers humans have been doing this to each other. Secondly, the writers of the New Testament would have been aware of these verses and could easily have put in the other details in, such as the casting of lots etc could have been added quite easily into the account during the 50 or so years between Jesus' death and the writing down of the Gospels.

Stratos,

You are right to be sceptical.        :P

And in your scepticism, that which is within your own heart is rejecting the spirit of God.

Your own heart is [effectively] 'filtering' you out, of God's spiritual kingdom of righteousness.

Why so ?

Because [like so many others] you refuse to acknowledge your need to repent.

You, yourself, are rejecting the spirit of God.


Psalms 51:10
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11  Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.


+++


1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18  For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19  For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20  Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21  For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22  For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23  But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;




Our salvation rests upon our belief that Jesus was crucified, died, and after 3 days, and 3 nights, Jesus was revived by God.

1 Corinthians 15:4
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5  And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6  After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.


I believe it.

I am just a fool, who trusts in God's righteousness.

I am happy to be a fool.

heed the word stratos...

Yadda wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 10:48am:

Our salvation rests upon our belief that Jesus was crucified, died, and after 3 days, and 3 nights, Jesus was revived by God.

I know all this Yadda, and truly did used to believe it.  The cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy within the church, every church I'd attended, caught up with me over some time and I decided to leave.  It wasn't easy, as it had been the foundation of my life for quite some time and I had developed many relationships, relationships that are now all but gone because I asked too many questions.

Nice post though Yadda, thanks

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 1:20am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 9th, 2014 at 12:22am: Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 7th, 2014 at 9:04am: Stratos wrote on Jan 7th, 2014 at 8:59am: Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 7th, 2014 at 8:52am: Stratos wrote on Jan 7th, 2014 at 8:40am: Oh, and the weeks prophecy is incredibly vague by the way, and massively open to interpretation. What does any "weeks" prophecy have to do with the subject of the restoration of Jews to their land, as detailed in the post at the link I provided? For those in here that are unfamiliar, the following  may be the prophetic math problem, to which he refers. http://theism.net/article/17 Sorry, you were mentioning it before like some of silver bullet, I was going to reply to it then but fell asleep I find the restoration of Jews to their land, detailed in the post you keep ignoring, to be a much more obvious and impressive fulfillment of prophecy. Let alone Daniel's math pinning the dates of 1948 and 1967. http://www.zionismchristian.com/daniel_prophesied_modern_zionism.htm And for other forum members, the more obvious fulfillment of prophecy like the coming of the prophesied Messiah, and Jesus' crucifixion in old Testament prophecy and such, that should be givens to Stratos: http://www.islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm Actually Pete, the restoration doesn't actually fit with the original OT Jewish prophecy and won't work as a sign. For it to work, the Messiah would have to have physically LEAD the people of Israel back to the Promised Land. That's why so many of the ultra-orthodox Jews are unhappy with the existence of modern Israel. Hi gizmo. I am well aware of self-proclaimed "orthodox" anti-Zionist Jewish cults, like the Neturei Karta, as I minister to Muslims who love to trot them out. They fruit the anti-Zionist tree along with the rest of the fruit of the anti-Zionist tree. Insisting on their tradition and interpretation, while divorcing themselves from objective reality, which even blinds them to their arch enemy. http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/islam_and_jews.htm Not that dissimilar to the "church" being blinded to the enemy through pop-eschatology that began to come into vogue in the 19th century: http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/muhammad_islam_in_bible_prophecy.htm#the_conflict Just as it was in the 1st century when the tradition of the Pharisees, caused them believe their Messiah would come as a mighty and powerful conquering king, that in turn caused them to reject Jesus as their Messiah in spite of all of His miracles and much more. And even today, in spite of the the Psalms prophecy at the link you quoted, and many other Messianic prophesies. Though many have come to Christ as groups like "Jews for Jesus" attest. Many through prophesies like Psalms 22 and Isaiah 53. http://www.islamandthetruth.com/isaiah_53.htm Yet here we are today, with 1/3 of the world's population believing Christ was crucified, died, and was resurrected from the dead. Recognizing Jesus as the King of Kings. And that is just the number of self-proclaimed Christians (many of whom have not been born again), let alone that 1/3 portion of mankind doesn't take into account, the number of people that believe the Gospel, but recognize they are unrepentant, and thus are honest enough with themselves to not proclaim themselves to be Christian. While 2/10 of 1% of the world's population is composed of Jews, and that number even includes atheist, agnostic, as well as faithful Jews. Yet there they are today, ruling and reigning in Israel just as prophesied, with that tiny strip of land emerging from the utter desolation of 200 years ago, to becoming one of the most prosperous and technologically advanced economies, and a geopolitical focus of the world. http://www.zionismchristian.com/zionism_in_prophecy.htm The Messiah did indeed build His temple in three days, while He ushered in His kingdom in the 1st century, and His people are in His kingdom unto today. http://www.beholdthebeast.com/temple_of_god.htm It would help me with my responses to you if I knew whether you were a Muslim or Christian, or a faithful Jew or some other religion, or atheist or agnostic. And if Christian, which eschatology your church ascribes to (if you don't know, then perhaps which denomination would help). http://www.christianeschatology.com/

I'm an ex-Catholic atheist.
I think the so called anti-zionist orthodox groups aren't happy because they believe that the League of Nations, in mandating a national Jewish homeland, usurped God's job (leading them home) and think it's an insult to God.

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 12:00pm:

I'm an ex-Catholic atheist.

The Roman Church tends to do that sort of thing to a person. And thank you for the info, that will help me in reply going forward.


gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 12:00pm:

I think the so called anti-zionist orthodox groups aren't happy because they believe that the League of Nations, in mandating a national Jewish homeland, .......

The restoration of Jews to their covenant land began in the early 19th century, long before the League of Nations got involved. After 1200 years of Islamization had rendered Israel an utterly desolate, denuded, desertified, essentially depopulated wasteland.

In "A History of the Jews" Paul Johnson writes on page 321: "Between 1827 and 1839, largely through British efforts, the population of Jerusalem rose from 550 to 5,500 and in all Palestine it topped 10,000 - the real beginning of the Jewish return to the Promised Land. In 1838 Palmerston appointed the first western vice-consul in Jerusalem, W.T. Young, and told him 'to afford protection to the Jews generally'."
http://www.zionismchristian.com/history_of_modern_zionism.htm#desolation_of_israel


gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 12:00pm:

....... usurped God's job (leading them home) and think it's an insult to God.

While faithful Zionist Jews recognize it as a fulfillment of so much prophecy.
Just as so many Christians also excitedly anticipated through prophecy, centuries before their restoration ever even began.

Thomas Brightman 1562-1607: "The restoring of the Jewes and their callinge to the faith of Christ after the utter overthrow of their three enemies is set forth in livelie colours." "Shall they return to Jerusalem again?" "There is nothing more certain: the prophets do everywhere confirm it and beat upon it."

Isaac Newton: “Hence I observe these things, first that the restauration of the Jewish nation so much spoken of by the old Prophets respects not the few Jews who were converted in the Apostles days, but the dispersed nation of the unbelieving Jews to be converted in the end when the fullness of the Gentiles shall enter, that is when the Gospel (upon the fall of Babylon) shall begin to be preached to all nations. Secondly that the prophecies of Isaiah described above by being here cited by the Apostle is limited to respect the time of the future conversion and restitution of the Jewish Nation, and thirdly that the humour which has long reigned among the Christians of boasting our selves against the Jews, and insulting over them for their not believing, is reprehended by the Apostle for high –mindedness and self-conceipt, and much more is our using them despightfully, Pharisaicall and impious”
http://www.zionismchristian.com/zionism_in_christianity.htm#christians_on_zionism

While Daniel pinned their sovereign control over Israel in 1948, and then Jerusalem in 1967 - right to the year - in two mathematical problems that span 2500 years, in perfect parallel:
http://www.zionismchristian.com/daniel_prophesied_modern_zionism.htm

Yadda wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 10:48am:

Stratos wrote on Jan 9th, 2014 at 8:31am: Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 9th, 2014 at 12:55am: Why not start with the prophecy of the crucifixion of Christ in Psalms that you keep making excuses, for and to yourself, to ignore? I have said that it does seem uncannily like the crucifixion of Jesus, but there is a lot of it that does not seem to quite fit, or can be easily explained in a way that does NOT involve the crucifixion of Jesus For starters, it does mention crucifixion specifically, but piercing hands and feet.  I'm sure as long as there have been nails and hammers humans have been doing this to each other. Secondly, the writers of the New Testament would have been aware of these verses and could easily have put in the other details in, such as the casting of lots etc could have been added quite easily into the account during the 50 or so years between Jesus' death and the writing down of the Gospels. Stratos, You are right to be sceptical.        :P And in your scepticism, that which is within your own heart is rejecting the spirit of God. Your own heart is [effectively] 'filtering' you out, of God's spiritual kingdom of righteousness. Why so ? Because [like so many others] you refuse to acknowledge your need to repent. You, yourself, are rejecting the spirit of God.

Which is why he cannot expect to fully understand.

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Yadda wrote on Jan 9^th, 2014 at 10:48am:

Psalms 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. 11  Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. +++ 1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18  For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19  For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20  Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21  For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22  For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23  But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; Our salvation rests upon our belief that Jesus was crucified, died, and after 3 days, and 3 nights, Jesus was revived by God. 1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5  And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6  After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. I believe it. I am just a fool, who trusts in God's righteousness. I am happy to be a fool.