From the Hoover Institute: "Few people realize that we are today living through the largest persecution of Christians in history, worse even than the famous attacks under ancient Roman emperors like Diocletian and Nero. Estimates of the numbers of Christians under assault range from 100-200 million. According to one estimate, a Christian is martyred every five minutes. And most of this persecution is taking place at the hands of Muslims. Of the top fifty countries persecuting Christians, forty-two have either a Muslim majority or have sizeable Muslim populations."

CNS reports: "Sunni Muslim terrorists committed “about 70 percent” of the 12,533 terrorist murders in the world last year, according to a report by the National Counterterrorism Center (NCTC)."
That's for the year 2011, and that percentage doesn't even include Shiite Muslim terrorist murders. Thus it should be obvious to all non-Muslims, that the world would be largely at peace today, if the followers of Muhammad had not been commanded to "fight and slay" non-Muslims in the "cause" of "Allah".

Besides the murder, mayhem and misery we witness all around the world today, Islam offers yet another the opportunity to understand the nature and extent of the spiritual struggle that is taking place throughout the world, by what Muslims are taught is the only unforgivable sin in Islam of "shirk".

About 1/3 of mankind in the world today believe that Christ was crucified, died and was resurrected from the dead (even though many have not been born again). They also understand that the Messiah was sacrificed to save all from sin who have faith in the shed blood of the sacrifice of the Passover Lamb of God.
islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

A directly opposing 1/4 of mankind in the world today, is compelled to specifically to DISbelieve the crucifixion of Christ, and thus REJECT His shed blood, as articles of their faith in Muhammad alone. Compelled to conquer all kingdoms and subjugate all people to DISbelieving the crucifixion of Christ and thus denying His shed blood that would save them - the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel.

Bukhari, V1 B2 #24 Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle.....

While the scriptures contain hundreds of verses that reveal the relationship between YHWH the Father, and His Son Yeshua, Muslims must reject those hundreds of verses and specifically DENY the Son of God, because of their faith in the false prophet Muhammad alone.

Quran Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

Yet in the scriptures we read:
1John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1 John 2:22.... He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Stunningly (but in light of Islamic history not surprisingly), Muhammad's followers are taught that if a Muslim confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, he will have committed the most "heinous" and ONLY UNFORGIVABLE sin, in Islam. As opposed to child rape, or cold-blooded mass murder, for example, which may be forgiven. As explained by many Islamic sites:

"The sin of shirk is to associate partners with Allah, basically this means to set up idols and false deities alongside Allah, granting them equal status to Allah, and to give them actions which are only reserved for God alone, such as worshipping them, making oaths to them, having fear and hope in them, and to sacrifice things in their name. All of this constitutes shirk, an example is the case of Jesus, those who set him up as a God, and invoke on him and pray to him are guilty of shirk, they are guilty of setting up a partner to the true God Allah."

Thus every single Christian over the last nearly 2,000 years has been guilty of, and died in a state of, committing Muhammad's ONLY UNFORGIVABLE sin, because we pray in the name of Jesus - the Messiah Yeshua - the Son of God:

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Thus once again, we find the extreme and polar opposite nature, of the false prophet Muhammad's counter-YHWH anti-religion. Indeed according to the scriptures, Islam is ANTICHRIST, and thus each and every follower of Muhammad is an antichrist.
Could a person be any more antichrist, than to believe that to confess that Jesus is the Son of God, would be to commit the ONLY UNFORGIVABLE SIN!?
islamandthetruth.com/shirk_unforgivable_sin.htm

islamandthetruth.com/shirk_unforgivable_sin.htm

When I inquire of Muhammad's followers regarding our Christian confession, I ask if they believe that sins like child rape or cold blooded mass murder would constitute lesser sins, since they may be forgiven (perhaps not surprising since Muhammad was guilty of both). When pressed for an answer as to whether confessing Jesus is the Son of God or praying in Jesus' name, would constitute a greater and more "heinous" sin than child rape or cold-blooded mass murder, I received the following in reply:

"Enough of the condescension - OF COURSE I - and even you and anybody else making that "confession" would be committing the one HEINOUS sin that God does not forgive."

So the question begs, would a just God be revealed as making child rape and cold blooded mass murder lesser sins, than believing in the one true God as He revealed Himself through hundreds of verses in His 1600 year record, whose people have followed Him through two covenants for 3500 years?

Another forum member declared: "To answer your question Plainly every Christian will tell you there is only One God and that One God is made up of three parts, that is blasphemy and the greatest of all sins yes it is ascribing partners to God, (shirk)."

Yet Muhammad's followers are themselves required to believe that Muhammad's own "Allah" has a spirit (which is one of those three parts) even as they point the finger at Christians proclaiming we are guilty of "shirk" - Muhammad's ONLY unforgivable sin - for believing the same!

Sura 15.29: "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

Sura 16:102 Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.

So according to the measure they apply to Christians, believing that Muhammad's "Allah" has a spirit as Muhammad taught, would make them polytheistic hypocrites and guilty of Muhammad's only unforgivable sin!

Exodus 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

After pointing out how God physically revealed Himself to Moses through a burning bush (which Muslims also believe), and then inquiring as to whether God could reveal Himself in the flesh of a man if He so chose to, a forum member proclaimed:
"For Him to take the form of a man, according to ours would be an abomination-a sin beyond any other that is unforgivable if one dies in that state, unless he or she repents and turns to the one and only lord."

So I point out how YHWH revealed Himself to Abraham in the flesh of a man (in Genesis chapter 18), and even ate and drank with Abraham, more than a thousand years before He revealed Himself to mankind as the prophesied Messiah and Son of God.

islamandthetruth.com/god_manifest_flesh.htm

Muhammad's followers are even compelled to believe that Muhammad declared himself to be an "intercessor", which would effectively make him a "helper" or "partner" of "Allah"! Since they do not believe Muhammad to be a part of the Godhead, this makes Muslims more polytheistic, than they accuse Christians of being!

islamandthetruth.com/intercession.htm

They are even expected to believe that the first drop of blood shed by a Muslim so-called "martyr" - that is killed inadvertently while engaged in the act of slaughtering others through imperialistic conquest - not only remits his own sins, but qualifies him to intercede for 70 of his family members. So it should be no surprise that some Muslim's parents push them into engaging in foreign wars, and even blowing themselves up in a crowded marketplace.

answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130919141045AAsivCo
Al-Tirmidhi Hadith 3834 Narrated by Al-Miqdam ibn Ma'dikarib
Allah's Messenger (saws) said, "The martyr will receive six good things from Allah:
he is forgiven at the first shedding of his blood;
he is shown his abode in Paradise;
he will be preserved from the punishment in the grave;
on his head will be placed the 'crown of honour', a ruby of which is better than the world and what it contains;
he will be married to seventy-two wives from amongst the 'hoor's of Paradise;
and is made intercessor for seventy of his relatives."
google.com/#q=islam+first+drop+blood+intercede+seventy+family+members

So Muhammad's followers even get the concept of atonement of sin through shed blood, even as they are required to reject the ONE sacrifice for sin forever, provided by the ONE true God of the Scriptures, through the sacrifice of the spotless Passover Lamb of God:

Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Hbr 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

And were it not for such as fulfilled Bible prophecy, archaeology, history and geography, it might be more difficult to seek out and follow the truth:
islamandthetruth.com/bible_prophecy.htm

That sounds like plain old Idolatry? Am i missing something?

Stratos wrote on Dec 30^th, 2013 at 11:30pm:

That sounds like plain old Idolatry? Am i missing something?

Of course you are: 1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Yes yes, I'm a horrible heathen.

Now how does Shirk differ from idolatry?

Pete Waldo wrote on Dec 30^th, 2013 at 11:58pm:

Stratos wrote on Dec 30th, 2013 at 11:30pm: That sounds like plain old Idolatry? Am i missing something? Of course you are: 1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Stratos wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 12:01am:

Yes yes, I'm a horrible heathen. Now how does Shirk differ from idolatry?

Besides your question making absolutely no sense, even a person outside the Spirit of God with just a small capacity for critical thought, should be able to conclude from that verse that it is futile to believe you could understand the things of the Spirit of God while insisting on remaining a willful unregenerate - let alone champion for the spirit of antichrist.

My question makes perfect sense.

Your description of Shirk sounds very similar to idolatry, or the worship of beings outside of ones own religion.  What is the difference between Shirk and idolatry?

Basically what Pete is saying is "my verses are better than your verses - therefore muslims are evil"

Its an extremely sophisticated argument.

And yes, shirk is merely setting up partners to God - aka idol worship.

Stratos wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 12:01am:

Yes yes, I'm a horrible heathen. Now how does Shirk differ from idolatry?

Is Jesus God ?

Yes.


Are there two God's ?

No.






polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 7:57am:

Basically what Pete is saying is "my verses are better than your verses - therefore muslims are evil" Its an extremely sophisticated argument. And yes, shirk is merely setting up partners to God - aka idol worship.

Idol worship ?

I don't bow down, towards a Mecca, where that BLACK ROCK is.

Google;
mecca, black rock, imagei


"It is my suspicion that the universe is not only stranger than we do imagine but it is stranger than we can imagine."
J.B.S.Haldane - biochemist

"We had thought that we were human beings making a spiritual journey; it may be truer to say that we are spiritual beings making a human journey."
Teilhard de Chardin



The message in the Bible is consistent on the subject of the 'spirit' and the spiritual;

Men should see past the 'easy' [seductive] things of this world, and seek the 'spirit' [and truth].





John 4:24
God is a Spirit:...

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:...

John 8:23
....Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:...

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.                  [...spirit]




John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Comment;
A man is 'born of water' at his body's natural birth, when his mothers' waters break.i


The Kingdom of God v The Doctrines of Men
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1382570147/15#15

Quote:

[quote]3)  John 17:3  "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only  true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." This verse clearly shows two separate entities - a)  the "only true God" AND b) Jesus Christ (who was sent by the only true God.)  Only the one who sent Jesus is the true God, meaning Jesus himself can't be God.

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Hosea 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

John 14:8
Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

[/quote]

Yadda I've told you before, please cut out the spacing.

I'd never heard of Shirk before last night, so I checked it out, and it seems there is some debate as to how unforgivable it is.

Some sources seem to show that it is something that cannot be forgiven ever, but the more common one seems to be that it is only unforgivable if you die while still committing it, as in die while still revering something other than Allah.  However, the popular consensus seems to be that if you seek forgiveness from it before you pass away it is indeed forgiven.

What is everyone's take on it?

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 9:11am:

Yadda I've told you before, please cut out the spacing.

I can't won't gandalf.

The spacing is me, Yadda.

I can stop posting on the ISLAM board.

But the spacing is me, Yadda.





You could start deleting my posts, or ban me from the ISLAM board.

But that would only prove and confirm, what everyone thought [past tense] about you.

gandalf = = [intolerant] moslem

I'm not really sure where (if anywhere) in the islamic texts it says shirk is the greatest sin.

Its easy to see why it was emphasised so heavilly during Prophet Muhammad's time though - the people during that time did worship Allah, and recognised him as the supreme God. However they also set up subordinate partners to him, and set up all the idols for worship inside the Kabaa. So even these "polytheists" were basically on the "right" path according to islam, but for this innovation of setting up these idols - which was only a relatively new innovation on the original "true" religion of Abraham, which the people of Arabia never really fully abandoned. Thus Muhammad's mission was more about reminding the people of their heritage, and pointing out that Allah was not merely the best of many gods, but the only one true God - rather than introducing a completely new religion.

Interestingly, its said that when Muhammad took Mecca and destroyed the idols in the Kabaa, he left one in there - a statue of the virgin Mary.

Yadda wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 9:46am:

You could start deleting my posts, or ban me from the ISLAM board. But that would only prove and confirm, what everyone thought [past tense] about you. gandalf = = [intolerant] moslem

Oh Yadda, you are too cute.  Tell me more about how more tolerant you are than Gandalf while referring to Islam as a bucket of sewerage, and supporting genocide commited by Christians

Pete Waldo wrote on Dec 30^th, 2013 at 10:50pm:

islamandthetruth.com/shirk_unforgivable_sin.htm When I inquire of Muhammad's followers regarding our Christian confession, I ask if they believe that sins like child rape or cold blooded mass murder would constitute lesser sins, since they may be forgiven (perhaps not surprising since Muhammad was guilty of both). When pressed for an answer as to whether confessing Jesus is the Son of God or praying in Jesus' name, would constitute a greater and more "heinous" sin than child rape or cold-blooded mass murder, I received the following in reply: "Enough of the condescension - OF COURSE I - and even you and anybody else making that "confession" would be committing the one HEINOUS sin that God does not forgive." So the question begs, would a just God be revealed as making child rape and cold blooded mass murder lesser sins, than believing in the one true God as He revealed Himself through hundreds of verses in His 1600 year record, whose people have followed Him through two covenants for 3500 years? Another forum member declared: "To answer your question Plainly every Christian will tell you there is only One God and that One God is made up of three parts, that is blasphemy and the greatest of all sins yes it is ascribing partners to God, (shirk)." Yet Muhammad's followers are themselves required to believe that Muhammad's own "Allah" has a spirit (which is one of those three parts) even as they point the finger at Christians proclaiming we are guilty of "shirk" - Muhammad's ONLY unforgivable sin - for believing the same! Sura 15.29: "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him." Sura 16:102 Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims. So according to the measure they apply to Christians, believing that Muhammad's "Allah" has a spirit as Muhammad taught, would make them polytheistic hypocrites and guilty of Muhammad's only unforgivable sin! Exodus 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, After pointing out how God physically revealed Himself to Moses through a burning bush (which Muslims also believe), and then inquiring as to whether God could reveal Himself in the flesh of a man if He so chose to, a forum member proclaimed: "For Him to take the form of a man, according to ours would be an abomination-a sin beyond any other that is unforgivable if one dies in that state, unless he or she repents and turns to the one and only lord." So I point out how YHWH revealed Himself to Abraham in the flesh of a man (in Genesis chapter 18), and even ate and drank with Abraham, more than a thousand years before He revealed Himself to mankind as the prophesied Messiah and Son of God. islamandthetruth.com/god_manifest_flesh.htm Muhammad's followers are even compelled to believe that Muhammad declared himself to be an "intercessor", which would effectively make him a "helper" or "partner" of "Allah"! Since they do not believe Muhammad to be a part of the Godhead, this makes Muslims more polytheistic, than they accuse Christians of being! islamandthetruth.com/intercession.htm They are even expected to believe that the first drop of blood shed by a Muslim so-called "martyr" - that is killed inadvertently while engaged in the act of slaughtering others through imperialistic conquest - not only remits his own sins, but qualifies him to intercede for 70 of his family members. So it should be no surprise that some Muslim's parents push them into engaging in foreign wars, and even blowing themselves up in a crowded marketplace. Allah's Messenger (saws) said, "The martyr will receive six good things from Allah: he is forgiven at the first shedding of his blood; he is shown his abode in Paradise; he will be preserved from the punishment in the grave; on his head will be placed the 'crown of honour', a ruby of which is better than the world and what it contains; he will be married to seventy-two wives from amongst the 'hoor's of Paradise; and is made intercessor for seventy of his relatives." google.com/#q=islam+first+drop+blood+intercede+seventy+family+members So Muhammad's followers even get the concept of atonement of sin through shed blood, even as they are required to reject the ONE sacrifice for sin forever, provided by the ONE true God of the Scriptures, through the sacrifice of the spotless Passover Lamb of God: Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. Hbr 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; And were it not for such as fulfilled Bible prophecy, archaeology, history and geography, it might be more difficult to seek out and follow the truth: islamandthetruth.com/bible_prophecy.htm

Your alittle confused my friend.

Christians see the spirit as a diety, a figure, a god like figure. For example the three in one God which people are brainwashed with.

Muslims see spirit as the soul and not as some figure or god like structure.

God created the physical part of the humans, but put in it the soul to bring it into life.

wally1 wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 2:38pm:

Christians see the spirit as a diety, a figure, a god like figure. For example the three in one God which people are brainwashed with. Muslims see spirit as the soul and not as some figure or god like structure. God created the physical part of the humans, but put in it the soul to bring it into life.

Not Shirk.

One God.

A God who is incomprehensible to human understanding.





wally,

If i worship a man [Jesus]...

Did father Abraham worship a man too ?

Because the Bible records that the LORD God appeared as a man [with two companions], to [biblical] Abraham...

Genesis 18:1
And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2  And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3  And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
4  Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
5  And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
6  And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
7  And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.
8  And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.





John 8:51
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
52  Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
53  Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
54  Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55  Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56  Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57  Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.





1 Corinthians 10:1
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2  And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3  And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.






wally,

I do not believe that God is a man.

God is not a 'man', but scripture says that God's feet were washed by Abraham's water, and that God ate Abraham's meat, and that God appeared as a man, to Abraham.




wally,

If God, is God [the creator], can he manifest himself [as he pleases], within his own creation ???

The Bible [OT] says that our creator has manifested himself, many times, and in many differing forms.



And further, God [the creator] in scripture says, that we [mankind], are his created 'children'.

Deuteronomy 32:19
And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

Isaiah 1:2
Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

Jeremiah 4:22
For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

Acts 17:28
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.







Moslems insist that the Bible has been corrupted, by the Jews and the Christians.

Q.
What do moslems do, commonly ?

A.
They accuse those who are not moslems, of doing what the moslems themselves have done.
Moslems project their own guilt, onto Allah's enemies.



Dictionary;
corrupt = =
1 willing to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain.         evil or morally depraved.
2 (of a text or a computer database or program) made unreliable by errors or alterations.
3 rotten or putrid.

How can somebody see God when the bible tells you something different,

“But you may not look directly at my face, for no one may see me and live.” (Ex.: 33:20 NLT).

“No one has seen God at any time.” (John 1:18 NKJ).

you [Moses] cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.”



JACOB DID NOT LITERALLY SEE GOD

“Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God met him ... 24And Jacob was left alone. And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day. When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob’s hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. Then he said, "Let me go, for the day has broken." But Jacob said, "I will not let you go unless you bless me." And he said to him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Jacob." Then he said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed." Then Jacob asked him, "Please tell me your name." But he said, "Why is it that you ask my name?" And there he blessed him. So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying, "For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered"” (Gen. 32:1, 24-30).

Similar to Abraham’s experience, this is simply an instance of Jacob seeing “the angel of the Lord” who functioned as God and as His representative in relation to Jacob. So Jacob did not literally see God but had struggled with His angel.

MOSES DID NOT LITERALLY SEE GOD

“Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend” (Ex. 33:11).

The Hebrew word ‘face’ is used in the OT in different senses—sometimes literal and sometimes in a variety of figurative ways. In the case of Exodus 33:11 Moses’ speaking “face to face” with God implies his intimate communication with God and his close relationship with God. It does not mean that Moses literally saw God.

wally1 wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 3:50pm:

How can somebody see God when the bible tells you something different, “But you may not look directly at my face, for no one may see me and live.” (Ex.: 33:20 NLT). “No one has seen God at any time.” (John 1:18 NKJ). you [Moses] cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.” JACOB DID NOT LITERALLY SEE GOD “Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God met him ... 24And Jacob was left alone. And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day. When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob’s hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. Then he said, "Let me go, for the day has broken." But Jacob said, "I will not let you go unless you bless me." And he said to him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Jacob." Then he said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed." Then Jacob asked him, "Please tell me your name." But he said, "Why is it that you ask my name?" And there he blessed him. So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying, "For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered"” (Gen. 32:1, 24-30). Similar to Abraham’s experience, this is simply an instance of Jacob seeing “the angel of the Lord” who functioned as God and as His representative in relation to Jacob. So Jacob did not literally see God but had struggled with His angel. MOSES DID NOT LITERALLY SEE GOD “Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend” (Ex. 33:11). The Hebrew word ‘face’ is used in the OT in different senses—sometimes literal and sometimes in a variety of figurative ways. In the case of Exodus 33:11 Moses’ speaking “face to face” with God implies his intimate communication with God and his close relationship with God. It does not mean that Moses literally saw God.

No man has seen 'God'.

No argument.




Our God, our creator, is incomprehensible   ......to our human comprehension.

i.e.
I know that God exists.    [....i know that that, that is a bold and vain statement]

But i am certain, that men do not have the intellectual capacity, to know what 'God', actually is.

And yet, wally, God continues to make 'himself' known to man.





And although no man has seen God, and no man can understand the nature of what God is.....


Yadda wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 3:25pm:

wally, If God, is God [the creator], can he manifest himself [as he pleases], within his own creation ??? The Bible [OT] says that our creator has manifested himself, many times, and in many differing forms.

Dawkins: "Bin Laden Has Won!"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1383646703/18#18

Quote:

I do not understand what God is, or how he exists. At this time, i see perceive God [i.e. my creator], as real, as an interventionist God [and i believe that i have occasionally experienced the 'intervention' of angels in my life [in night visions, and, in experiencing 'knowing advice' [NOT 'voices'] in the waking state] [the last such 'intervention experience' was in 2006, more than 6 years ago]. but these 'experiences' are unprovable, and i know that they would be viewed by others [by 'normal' people], as delusional.] [in experiencing this 'knowing advice', in the waking state [in the past];   e.g. i am fully awake, and if i am in prospect, of doing [a specific thing] something which [unknown to me!] could prove to be physically dangerous, it is not unusual/surprising for me to experience a 'knowing advice' incident.   and this experience is not in any way 'auditory', in its experience.   i can only describe it as suddenly 'knowing' 'something', inside my heart [yes, deep inside my chest].   of suddenly 'possessing' a 'knowing', which i was unaware of an instant ago.   i have had the experience where this 'knowing advice' will advise me; "Don't do 'A'. Do 'B' instead."   further, 1/ there is never any sense, of, an overriding authority, which is trying to force me, to choose 'B'.   and 2/ my own perception is that the 'source' of this 'knowing advice' always comes from somewhere external to my 'being'.]i [quote]Religious Naturalism is an umbrella of world views. My own view  within that umbrella is that God is not cognitively meaningful.

My own experience is different.

In 'my universe', God reveals himself as being 'cognitively meaningful', in his interaction with mankind, imo.

Job 7:17
What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?

Job 15:14
What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Psalms 8:4
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

Psalms 144:3
LORD, what is man, that thou takest knowledge of him! or the son of man, that thou makest account of him!



God does seek to have a relationship with men.

Men shun God, or rather, men shun the purity of God.

Men, are lost sheep, lost in the wilderness [which is this world].

[/quote]

Stratos wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 7:46am:

My question makes perfect sense. Your description of Shirk sounds very similar to idolatry, or the worship of beings outside of ones own religion.

No, it is worshiping multiple gods within one's own religion.


Stratos wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 7:46am:

What is the difference between Shirk and idolatry?

Islam's unforgivable sin of "shirk" is worshiping multiple gods, as the Arabian pagan's did when they worshiped the gods of the moon, sun, Venus, and the most venerated priest and priestess of the Arabian jinn-devil religion Asaf and Neilah when they engaged in the Sa'ee.
brotherpete.com/hajj___umrah.htm#al_safa_al_marwah

For example the Harranian Sabians prayed five times a day, prostrated in prayer, and wore long white robes in worship of their moon god, and even fasted by day during the same month in which Muslims still maintain the same tradition today, even ending the fast with the sighting of the crescent moon.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/origin_of_ramadan.htm

Indeed archaeological evidence regarding the etymology of the name "Allah" suggests it was the name of the Arabian pagan's moon god.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/the_name_allah.htm

Comically, though not surprisingly, while Muslims call it "fasting" more money is spent on food during the month of Ramadan, and there is more food wasted, than any other month of the year!
"While Ramadan is a time for giving and gratitude, it can also be a month of over-indulgence and waste, with far too much surplus food being dumped into the garbage bins."
en-maktoob.news.yahoo.com/food-waste-in-ramadan-is-a-cause-for-concern.html

Or as Muslims suggest, shirk is assigning a "partner" or "helper" to Muhammad's (alter-ego) "Allah", and then accuse Christians because they cannot understand that Jesus is the way God chose to manifest or reveal Himself to mankind - that He was as much a part of God when He was manifest as Jesus, as He was when He was revealed in the flesh to Abraham - so as a result of their error Muslims count Jesus and Yahweh as two separate Gods of Christian worship.

Genesis 18:1 And the LORD {Yehovah} appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men {en-oshe'} stood by him: and when he saw [them], he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 3 And said, My Lord {'Adonay}.....
islamandthetruth.com/god_manifest_flesh.htm

But Muhammad was even so clueless about the Godhead, he thought Mary was a part of the "trinity", and foolishly counted her as another god that he mistakenly thought Christians worship.

Surah 5:116 - And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?"

(though with the scripture contrary idols and veneration of Mary of the Roman Church, it might not be hard to see how someone could have gotten that idea. Ironically, Muslims venerate Mary more than (non-Catholic) Christians - even at Fatima).
If you want to learn more about Roman Church error this ex-nun does a pretty good job of exploring it:
brotherpete.com/catholic_concerns.htm

Mecca wasn't settled until about the 4th century AD, and the Kaaba wasn't built until around the early 5th century AD (when a tent was initially erected on the location), with the black stone idol likely arriving from Yemen in the late 5th century. By Muhammad's 6th-7th century the pagan's Kaaba had 360 idols that represented various pagan gods. Muhammad reduced it down to one idol, the black stone idol, that Muslims still prostrate themselves toward 5 times a day. He wanted to profit from Kaaba Inc. the way his uncle had, so he had to keep up the pagan's interest in coming, by maintaining at least one idol as the focus.
Muslims are even expected to travel to the black stone idol and march around it as the Arabian pagan's did before Muhammad was ever born. Even kiss it as Muhammad did, or if too crowded, at least point to it on each of the 7 times they pass by it when circumambulating the kaaba.

The pagans and Muhammad's followers circumambulated the black stone idol and Kaaba, shoulder to shoulder, right up until the year before Muhammad's last Hajj when he kicked the poor pagans out of their own ritual.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 26, Number 689: Narrated Abu Huraira: In the year prior to the last Hajj of the Prophet when Allahs Apostle made Abu Bakr the leader of the pilgrims, the latter (Abu Bakr) sent me in the company of a group of people to make a public announcement: 'No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year, and no naked person is allowed to perform Tawaf of the Kaba.'
brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm#tawaf

Can you imagine the spectacle of a bunch of naked pagans and Muslims, marching around a black stone idol, while believing the ritual to be of God?!
youtube.com/watch?v=ujUOZyrnewE

Remember this wasn't thousands of years ago in the times of the Canaanites, but rather in the 7th century AD, when the people not isolated from the civilized world in the SW Arabian desert, were highly organized, engineered and civilized. Indeed even such engineering marvels as the Antikythera mechanism is dated to well over 7 centuries before Muhammad!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 7:57am:

Basically what Pete is saying is "my verses are better than your verses - ........

Tragically it is far worse than that. What I am saying is that Muhammad proclaimed the EXACT OPPOSITE of the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel.
falseprophetmuhammad.com

That satan through his messenger THE false prophet Muhammad filled his followers with complete resolve as to what to DISbelieve, REJECT and DENY, regarding the 1600 year record of the one true God of the Jews and Christians whose people have followed Him through two covenants for 3500 years.

Let alone that you are a long way from needing to defend Muhammad's verses. Perhaps we both know there is a good reason you did not respond to "The History of Mecca" thread. So before wasting your time dithering on about verses, the first item you need to establish and present is historical and archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed prior to the 4th century AD, when the actual historical record tells us Yemeni immigrants initially settled the area.
ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388067196

THE FACT IS that ALL of Islamic so-called "tradition" was created from thin air and put to the pen in the 7th to 10th centuries AD (from 100 to 300 years after Muhammad was dead), without reference to any actual historical record that preceded the 5th century AD. A scripture-contrary, history-devoid, archaeology-absent, reality-rejecting, geographically-impossible so-called "tradition" of pure fictional poppycock, that was cooked up by a bunch of semi-literate SW Arabian desert dwellers, about a town located 1200 kilometers away from THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs.
historyofmecca.com/geography_mecca_islam.htm

Please investigate this subject for yourself. Google it. Don't take my word for it. Read what this Muslim Eastern History teacher has to say on the subject:
answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091231160732AAlTMZx

You see, my friend, since there is not a shred of historical or archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed before the 4th century AD (even though other ancient Arabian towns are very well attested in the historical and archaeological records), everything you have been indoctrinated to believe goes up in a puff of smoke.
religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/archeology.htm

You can walk away from the cult of the false prophet Muhammad, and never have to engage in his adopted, adapted and thinly veneered Quraish pagan moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship rituals again.
brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm#al_safa_al_marwah

You can walk away from the evil of the religion of Islam, and never again have to make excuses for Muhammad's own behavior, or those engaged in murder, mayhem and spreading misery around the world, who GET Islam and do what they can to do as Muhammad did and commanded his followers to do.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm

You never again would have to make excuses for Islam's capturing and pressing slaves into service, that has continued unabated for 1400 years, and unto today:
falseprophetmuhammad.com/islamic_slavery_dhimmitude.htm

You could come to know the love of the ONE true God of the scriptures of the Jews and Christians.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/the_love_of_god.htm

As millions of your former brethren have. Why not take a moment and watch just a few of their testimonies:
muslimjourneytohope.com/

YOU MUST CHOOSE, between the sinless Messiah who even you believe lives today, or the false prophet Muhammad whose corpse still lies in its shallow grave. Choose between ALL of the prophets and witnesses as revealed in the 1600 year record of YHWH to mankind, or Muhammad alone.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm


polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 7:57am:

........ therefore muslims are evil"

It is the desperation of those that are unable to defend what they believe, that instead attempt to mischaracterize the conversation as if it were about persons, when what we are discussing is our respective beliefs. We are discussing religion.

Of course as a Christian I have no choice but to believe that the religion of Islam is pure evil, because the STAND-ALONE 7th century false prophet Muhammad fills his followers with complete resolve to DISbelieve the crucifixion of Christ, and thus REJECT His shed blood that saves us from sin - the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/
islamandthetruth.com/the_lamb_slain.htm

While DENYING and even blaspheming the Son of God, as ARTICLES OF FAITH in Muhammad alone.
islamandthetruth.com/jesus_the_son_of_god.htm

Indeed Islam is ANTICHRIST, according to the scriptures of the one true God YHWH, that introduce and define the term:
falseprophetmuhammad.com/islam_is_antichrist.htm


polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 7:57am:

Its an extremely sophisticated argument. And yes, shirk is merely setting up partners to God - aka idol worship.

You mean setting up partners with Muhammad's alter-ego "Allah". Tragically, as long as Muhammadans follow Muhammad alone, they can't even understand who the God of the scriptures is.

Pete Waldo wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 8:48pm:

You mean setting up partners with Muhammad's alter-ego "Allah". Tragically, as long as Muhammadans follow Muhammad alone, they can't even understand who the God of the scriptures is.

Yours vs mine.  How about you debate this properly and argue them both on their own merits on this subject instead of simply assuming one side is right on this topic and the other is wrong by default.  Islam is a different religion to Christianity, although they do share numerous similarities.


Pete Waldo wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 7:38pm:

Why don't you look it up? Islam's sin of "shirk" is worshiping multiple gods, as the Arabian pagan's did when they worshiped the gods of the moon, sun, Venus and the most venerated priest and priestess of the Arabian jinn-devil religion Asaf and Neilah.

I did look it up, and it seems very similar to paganism, or holding reverence to God or Gods outside of a religious scripture.  You have also yet to explain why paganism is by default a bad thing, other than the fact it disagrees with your personal views.

Or is your problem with Shirk is that this sin is held above all other sins?

Stratos wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 10:54pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Dec 31st, 2013 at 8:48pm: You mean setting up partners with Muhammad's alter-ego "Allah". Tragically, as long as Muhammadans follow Muhammad alone, they can't even understand who the God of the scriptures is. Yours vs mine.  How about you debate this properly and argue them both on their own merits on this subject instead of simply assuming one side is right on this topic and the other is wrong by default.  Islam is a different religion to Christianity, although they do share numerous similarities. Pete Waldo wrote on Dec 31st, 2013 at 7:38pm: Why don't you look it up? Islam's sin of "shirk" is worshiping multiple gods, as the Arabian pagan's did when they worshiped the gods of the moon, sun, Venus and the most venerated priest and priestess of the Arabian jinn-devil religion Asaf and Neilah. I did look it up, and it seems very similar to paganism, or holding reverence to God or Gods outside of a religious scripture.  You have also yet to explain why paganism is by default a bad thing, other than the fact it disagrees with your personal views. Or is your problem with Shirk is that this sin is held above all other sins?

My 'problem' is muzzies will kill those who are not muslims, purely because they are not muslims.
Christians will not.
Well, no other belief system will do this.
Athiests are happy to 'live and let live."
Agnostics are quite ok with any belief or not.

It's only islam that has this extremism.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 11:19pm:

My 'problem' is muzzies will kill those who are not muslims, purely because they are not muslims. Christians will not. Well, no other belief system will do this. Athiests are happy to 'live and let live." Agnostics are quite ok with any belief or not.

The KKK are a Christian organisation

edit: oh, and for the record I'm an agnostic.

Stratos wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 11:24pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Dec 31st, 2013 at 11:19pm: My 'problem' is muzzies will kill those who are not muslims, purely because they are not muslims. Christians will not. Well, no other belief system will do this. Athiests are happy to 'live and let live." Agnostics are quite ok with any belief or not. The KKK are a Christian organisation edit: oh, and for the record I'm an agnostic.

the KKK's ideas are not supported by Jesus.

For the record, I am a Christian and am happy to live under "agnostic" laws.

Stratos wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 10:54pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Dec 31st, 2013 at 8:48pm: You mean setting up partners with Muhammad's alter-ego "Allah". Tragically, as long as Muhammadans follow Muhammad alone, they can't even understand who the God of the scriptures is. Yours vs mine.  How about you debate this properly and argue them both on their own merits on this subject instead of simply assuming one side is right on this topic and the other is wrong by default.

You either suffer reading and comprehension difficulties, or you didn't read the prior two posts. Since Islam is as opposite to the Gospel, as Muhammad was to the sinless Messiah - as the negative is to a photograph - one of the two is necessarily and egregiously wrong.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm

God gave us all the free will to choose between right and wrong, good and evil, and reality and fantasy, so how we spend our eternal life depends on the choices we make in this life. Those choices in turn, are arrived at through a love of truth, or absence thereof. Your posts, for example, exhibit an outright hostility toward truth, even while you choose self-imposed abject ignorance to the subjects at hand.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/strong_delusion.htm

The rest of us can choose to follow the one true God of love of the Jews and Christians as He revealed Himself through ALL of His prophets and witnesses of His 1600 year record of revelation to mankind, whose people have followed Him through two covenants for 3500 years. A record that is well supported by history, archaeology and fulfilled prophecy, that is consistent with matter of fact physical geography, and can even be confirmed mathematically.
beyondtheharbinger.com
islamandthetruth.com/bible_prophecy.htm

Or one can follow Muhammad alone, and his alter-ego "Allah" that is revealed in Muhammad's record as a terrorist, that inspired a cruel, violent, imperialistic, mass-murdering, child violating, counter-"messenger" of an anti-religion, in Muhammad's "Allah's" spirit of antichrist. A scripture-contrary, counter-religion with a pre-Muhammad history-devoid, archaeology-absent, reality-rejecting, geographically-impossible so-called "tradition", that masquerades as thousands of years of pre-Muhammad history, yet was all created and put to the pen in the 7th to 10th centuries AD without reference to any actual historical record that preceded the 5th century AD.

A counter-YHWH anti-religion with a carnal tradition of prostrating toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol and Kaaba in Mecca five times a day - located 1200 kilometers away from the Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs - while praying in the "vain repetitions as the heathen do", in the names of the Arabian pagan deity "Allah" and his "messenger" Muhammad. Even compelled to perform adopted, adapted and thinly veneered pagan Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship rituals.


Stratos wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 10:54pm:

Islam is a different religion to Christianity, .....

That would describe Hinduism or Buddhism for example.
Islam is a specifically anti-Christian, antichrist, ANTI-RELIGION.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/islam_is_antichrist.htm


Stratos wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 10:54pm:

..... although they do share numerous similarities. Pete Waldo wrote on Dec 31st, 2013 at 7:38pm: Why don't you look it up? Islam's sin of "shirk" is worshiping multiple gods, as the Arabian pagan's did when they worshiped the gods of the moon, sun, Venus and the most venerated priest and priestess of the Arabian jinn-devil religion Asaf and Neilah. I did look it up, and it seems very similar to paganism, or holding reverence to God or Gods outside of a religious scripture.  You have also yet to explain why paganism is by default a bad thing, other than the fact it disagrees with your personal views.

It isn't a matter of my personal views, but how YHWH revealed Himself through the scriptures He inspired. The Canaanites for example, engaged in ritualistic prostitution, bestiality and even sacrifice of children to idols. Now to a moral relativist that kind of worship would need to be considered just as valid as Judaism and Christianity. The Canaanites followed gods of their own creation, just as Muslims follow the god of Muhammad and his 7th to 10th century follower's creation.


Stratos wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 10:54pm:

Or is your problem with Shirk is that this sin is held above all other sins?

My problem with shirk is that in is just another source of fear that prevents Muhammad's followers from seeing the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and thus keeps Muhammad's followers in bondage to the false prophet Muhammad alone, and his followers in his stand-alone, murderous, 7th century born cult.
brotherpete.com/banu_qurayza_massacre.htm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 11:33pm:

the KKK's ideas are not supported by Jesus.

But they are indeed a Christian extremist group, who doesn't represent the standard view of Christianity.

Stratos wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 11:35pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Dec 31st, 2013 at 11:33pm: the KKK's ideas are not supported by Jesus. But they are indeed a Christian extremist group, who doesn't represent the standard view of Christianity.

I can find no quotes in the NT that support their ideas.
One of the first christians was a wealthy financier from ethiopea.
The christian bible stands against the KKK.

Anyone can commit any atrocity and claim it to be 'for God'.
Let the quotes for their actions be found.

Stratos wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 11:35pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Dec 31st, 2013 at 11:33pm: the KKK's ideas are not supported by Jesus. But they are indeed a Christian extremist group,........

Perhaps in the eyes of an unregenerate moral relativist. A person isn't a Christian because they claim to be, but become Christians through repentance and a conversion of the heart, and are thus "born again". Those in the KKK are no more Christian than Muslims are. Here's how we can know:

Jhn 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Mar 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Let alone that the false prophet Muhammad specifically rejected the whole subject of the Gospel.
falseprophetmuhammad.com

So we shouldn't be surprised to find them fruiting the anti-Zionist tree along with Arnold Murray and his Serpent Seed cult, David Duke (and the KKK), and Jeremiah Wright, who are joined by Muslims from around the world, Louis Farrakan and the "Nation of Islam", and secular groups like communist Soviets, the United Nations, George Soros and his Center for American Progress, white supremacists, Nazis, skinheads, and anti-Semites of all stripes.
zionismchristian.com/anti_zionism.htm


Stratos wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 11:35pm:

....... who doesn't represent the standard view of Christianity.

Pete Waldo wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 11:34pm:

one of the two is necessarily and egregiously wrong.

not necessarily.  They could (as I believe) both be wrong.  Or maybe Islam could be correct? you have no way of knowing for sure.  That is of course where the concept of faith comes into it.


Pete Waldo wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 11:34pm:

Your posts, for example, exhibit an outright hostility toward truth, even while you choose self-imposed abject ignorance to the subjects at hand.

Where have I not been truthful?


Pete Waldo wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 11:34pm:

That would describe Hinduism or Buddhism for example. Islam is a specifically anti-Christian, antichrist, ANTI-RELIGION.

Because they have a view of big J that is not compatible with Christianity?  Do you consider Baha'i to also be an "anti-religion"?


Pete Waldo wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 11:34pm:

It isn't a matter of my personal views, but how YHWH revealed Himself through the scriptures He inspired.

That is exactly a personal view.  That is not something that can ever be proved or verified but falls into the realm of faith.


Pete Waldo wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 11:34pm:

My problem with shirk is that in is just another source of fear that prevents Muhammad's followers from seeing the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and thus keeps Muhammad's followers in bondage to the false prophet Muhammad alone, and his followers in his stand-alone, murderous, 7th century born cult.

So you are basically disagreeing with it not because of any inherent value, but only because it is part of Islam which you are against based on religious reasons.  That's fine, but i wonder why then you would single out this one practice above everything else to try and prove a point when the same argument could be used for any Islamic practice.  Why did you single out Shirk?

Stratos wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 12:27am:

Why did you single out Shirk?

Because, as you wold have learned if you had read and been able to comprehend the OP, Islam's only unforgivable sin of "shirk", is the very epitome of the manifestation of the spirit of antichrist.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/islam_is_antichrist.htm

What other religion requires adherents, to specifically DISbelieve that Jesus is the Son of God, as an article of their faith?

Quran Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
falseprophetmuhammad.com/islam_is_antichrist.htm

1 John 2:22 ....He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 12:37am:

Because, as you wold have learned if you had read and been able to comprehend the OP, Islam's only unforgivable sin of "shirk", is the epitome of the manifestation of the spirit of antichrist. falseprophet

yes, but your reasons against it are because of your own personal beliefs against Islam. 

Also, there is not exactly a consensus that states that it is unforgivable, just that you need to repent of it BEFORE you die or it cannot be forgiven between death and what comes next.

Is it the fact it is seen as unforgiveable that you don't like it?

Stratos wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 12:40am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 12:37am: Because, as you wold have learned if you had read and been able to comprehend the OP, Islam's only unforgivable sin of "shirk", is the epitome of the manifestation of the spirit of antichrist. falseprophet yes, but your reasons against it are because of your own personal beliefs against Islam.  Also, there is not exactly a consensus that states that it is unforgivable, just that you need to repent of it BEFORE you die or it cannot be forgiven between death and what comes next.

Thank you! That's the whole point. Muhammad's followers must then believe, that each and every Christian throughout the entirety of the last nearly 2,000 years, has lived AND DIED in a state of committing Muhammad's only unforgivable sin, because we confess that Jesus is the Son of God and pray in Jesus name as the Gospel instructs us to do. That is how we are connected to God, through the Holy Spirit, that He sent in Jesus' name. We recognize the hundreds of verses that regard the Father and His Son.

1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

It is the very doctrine of Christ itself:

2John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

We follow all of the prophets and witnesses in the 1600 year record of our great God YHWH to mankind, which is the exact opposite of following the false prophet Muhammad alone, as Muhammad's followers do. This is why Muhammad's sin of "shirk" brings perfect clarity to the OPPOSITES of Islam and the Gospel.

Your point helps illustrate how we can know that Islam is THE EXACT OPPOSITE of the Gospel not only through the scriptures, but in conjunction with 1400 years of Muhammad and his follower's murder, mayhem, misery, slavery, thievery, abuse of prisoners, women and little girls, making Muhammad a shoe-in for THE false prophet that was prophesied in the book of Revelation, and his Islamic kingdom "beast" the final foe of God's people.
beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm

The PERFECT OPPOSITE of that revealed through the Gospel.
christianeschatology.com/historicism.htm#the_false_prophet


Stratos wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 12:40am:

Is it the fact it is seen as unforgiveable that you don't like it?

I don't like any manifestation of the spirit of ANTICHRIST, and do what I can to help lead those so sorely deluded overcome Muhammad, because I am a CHRISTian and that is what I have been called to labor in.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Though I haven't yet been called to witness to willful unregenerates such as yourself, just those deceived into believing they worship the God of the scriptures, when they quite demonstrably have instead been deceived into following the 7th century false prophet Muhammad alone.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/

Can Islam even be considered a religion when we honestly consider the definition of the term "cult"?
youtube.com/watch?v=ujUOZyrnewE

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 9:49am:

I'm not really sure where (if anywhere) in the islamic texts it says shirk is the greatest sin. Its easy to see why it was emphasised so heavilly during Prophet Muhammad's time though - the people during that time did worship Allah, and recognised him as the supreme God.

The historical and archaeological records regarding the etymology of the name "Allah" indicate it was the name of their moon god (coupled with the fact that there is no record of the Arabic language existing prior to the Christian era).

Quoting from first language Arabic Dr. Rafat Amari's 20-year full-time study of Islam and Arabian history and archaeology, "Islam: In Light of History", on the etymology of the name "Allah":

"We know that the term 'Allah,' as the god of the moon, was derived from the Thamud god of the moon. His name was Hilal, or Hlal, which means 'crescent.' Later, the name 'Hilal' became Hilah, as we see in many inscriptions which were found in Arabia. In the Thamud inscriptions he is found as H-ilah, Ha-ilah and H-alah. We see the same development for 'Hilah,' the moon deity in Yemen, where Almaqah is called 'Halal,' or 'Hilal, the Crescent.'"
falseprophetmuhammad.com/the_name_allah.htm#etymology_name_allah

Harranian Sabian worship of their moon god is where Ramadan comes from:
falseprophetmuhammad.com/origin_of_ramadan.htm

The pagan's shouted "Allah Akbar" which meant that their moon god was the greatER or greatEST of all of their Arabian Star Family deities.


polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 9:49am:

However they also set up subordinate partners to him, and set up all the idols for worship inside the Kabaa. So even these "polytheists" were basically on the "right" path according to islam, .......

No surprise there, since Muhammad adopted, adapted and thinly veneered the Quraish pagan's moon, sun star and jinn-devil worship rituals so he could keep Kaaba Inc going.
brotherpete.com/hajj___umrah.htm#al_safa_al_marwah


polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 9:49am:

....... but for this innovation of setting up these idols - which was only a relatively new innovation on the original "true" religion of Abraham, which the people of Arabia never really fully abandoned. Thus Muhammad's mission was more about reminding the people of their heritage, ........

In order to make this scripture-contrary, geographically impossible, claim of "heritage", and Abraham ever having had anything whatsoever to do with Muhammadanism, you need to support it through other than Islamic so-called Islamic "tradition", that was all created and put to the pen from 100 to 300 years after Muhammad died (7th to 10th centuries AD), without reference to any actual historical record that preceded the 5th century AD.
historyofmecca.com/geography_mecca_islam.htm#zamzam

I would sure appreciate if you weighed in on the thread dedicated to this subject.
ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388067196


polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 9:49am:

........ and pointing out that Allah was not merely the best of many gods, but the only one true God - rather than introducing a completely new religion. Interestingly, its said that when Muhammad took Mecca and destroyed the idols in the Kabaa, he left one in there - a statue of the virgin Mary.

How idolatrous that would have been of him (and the Roman Church)!

But your suggestion is disconnected from reality. Muhammad got rid of all the idols but one all right, and that is the Quraish pagan's black stone idol, that you prostrate toward five times a day. It cannot be denied that the Quraish pagans venerated that black stone idol before Muhammad was ever born.

Please don't let this post distract you from the very important information in my prior post to you:
ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388407613/19#19
And in this post to Stratos:
ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388407613/18#18

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 1:04am:

Thank you! That's the whole point. Muhammad's followers must then believe, that each and every Christian throughout the entirety of the last nearly 2,000 years, has lived AND DIED in a state of committing Muhammad's only unforgivable sin, because we confess that Jesus is the Son of God and pray in Jesus name as the Gospel instructs us to do. That is how we are connected to God, through the Holy Spirit, that He sent in Jesus' name. We recognize the hundreds of verses that regard the Father and His Son.

So according to a Muslim you aren't a Muslim.... Do you extend the same courtesies to whos belief you also don't subscribe to?  There are many, not just Islam that have rules you don't follow either.  Why do you even care if you do not believe in Islam whether you break their rules or nor?


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 1:04am:

The PERFECT OPPOSITE of that revealed through the Gospel.

That everything can be forgiven?  because Shirk can be forgiven in Islam according to most, as long as you repent before you die.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 1:04am:

I don't like any manifestation of the spirit of ANTICHRIST, and do what I can to help lead those so sorely deluded overcome Muhammad, because I am a CHRISTian and that is what I have been called to labor in.

Oh right, it must be wrong because you say so.  Not exactly a convincing argument.  Also, what have you got against pagan beliefs anyway?  I mean from an objective point of view, not a subjective one.

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 2:34am:

Muhammad adopted, adapted and thinly veneered the Quraish pagan's moon, sun star and jinn-devil worship rituals so he could keep Kaaba Inc going.

...or could it be that the Quraish pagans had adapted the the monotheism of Abraham that had come before them?

When religious leaders adopt systems and institutions that are familiar to the people that leader is attempting to convert, its not necessarily a sign of a fraud. Just like the christians adopted a whole host of Greek/Roman pagan rituals as a ploy to make the transformation of the people smoother. By the way, the concept of the "sacrifice for our sins" has roots in pre-christian pagan mythology.

So yadda, we can both agree that no human has seen God and only those who are worthy of seeing god will see god when they die.

So Abraham nor any prophet saw God, and even if I was to believe that Abraham saw God, Abraham probabaly saw angels dressed as man and not God himself.

So the bible is wrong on that account that people have seen God.

And you say muslims see the bible as corrupt?

They do have a point, the bible is full of mistakes, contradictions and errors, so the muslims have a right to slam the current bible which is not the word of god.

wally1 wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 7:42am:

So yadda, we can both agree that no human has seen God and only those who are worthy of seeing god will see god when they die. So Abraham nor any prophet saw God, and even if I was to believe that Abraham saw God, Abraham probabaly saw angels dressed as man and not God himself. So the bible is wrong on that account that people have seen God. And you say muslims see the bible as corrupt? They do have a point, the bible is full of mistakes, contradictions and errors, so the muslims have a right to slam the current bible which is not the word of god.

The Muslims won't believe the bible and the Christians won't believe the Koran. Move on .

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 7:36am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 2:34am: Muhammad adopted, adapted and thinly veneered the Quraish pagan's moon, sun star and jinn-devil worship rituals so he could keep Kaaba Inc going. ...or could it be that the Quraish pagans had adapted the the monotheism of Abraham that had come before them?

No that cannot be, on so many levels, the first being the geographical impossibility of Abraham ever having been within 1,000 kilometers of where Mecca was eventually built a couple thousand years after Abraham. Recognizing this very physical impossibility is why Tabari invented the notion that Abraham and Ishmael regularly flew back and forth, the 1200 kilometers between Abraham's home in Hebron and Mecca, on magic flying donkey-mules or Buraqs. Like the one that Muhammad claimed to have ridden on one night to Jerusalem, up to the "paradise" of his overactive imagination, and then back to Mecca by morning. Muhammad even claimed he prayed in the temple in Jerusalem on that trip, while the actual historical record tells us that temple had been torn down over 500 years prior to, his entirely unwitnessed and ridiculous tall tale.
brotherpete.com/mohammeds_night_journey.htm

You and I both know that the reason you failed to reply to "The History of Mecca" thread as I requested, is because in fact, there is not a shred of historical or archaeological evidence that suggests that Mecca ever existed prior to the 4th century AD.
ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388067196

This even though other even tiny towns, that came and went within a few centuries before the Christian era, are well attested in the historical and archaeological records of Arabia.

Mecca being located 1200 kilometers away from THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs, and Abraham living over a thousand years before a caravan route was established along the Red Sea in Arabia, makes it a geographical impossibility that Abraham was ever within a thousand kilometers of where Mecca was eventually settled, a couple thousand years after Abraham roamed the earth.
historyofmecca.com/geography_mecca_islam.htm

I'll post a thread on the subject to help disabuse you of the preposterous wishful notions you have been fed by a bunch of semi-literate 7th to 10th century AD, SW Arabian desert dwellers, that lived thousands of years after the thousands of years of phony supposed history they created from thin air.

The families of both Khadijah and Muhammad were deeply involved in the occult.
religionresearchinstitute.org/Mohammad/occultism.htm

Since Mecca did not exist prior to the 4th century AD, and the kaaba wasn't built until the early 5th century, there was not enough time for what you suggest, particularly since Abraham had been dead for a couple thousand years before Mecca was settled.

Let alone that the ACTUAL historical and archaeological records confirm that Abraham was never outside of the Fertile Crescent, and never within 1,000 kilometers of where Mecca was eventually settled in the 4th century AD, a couple thousand years after Abraham walked the earth.

Even some of Muhammad's closest followers hated performing the Sa'ee because they had performed the same ritual in Arabian jinn-devil worship, before Muhammad told them his alter-ego "Allah" said it was alright to continue the jinn-devil worship ritual.

Narrated 'Asim: I asked Anas bin Malik: "Did you use to dislike to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?" He said, "Yes, as it was of the ceremonies of the days of the Pre-lslamic period of ignorance, till Allah revealed: 'Verily! (The two mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who performs the pilgrimage to the Ka'ba, or performs 'Umra, to perform Tawaf between them.' " (2.158) (Sahih al-Bukhari 2 Book 26 710)
brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm#al_safa_al_marwah

But then Muhammad also told them that his alter-ego "Allah" lavished on him all the wives he desired - but only for him. Told them that his "Allah" gave him 1/5 of the "booty", but only for him - "booty" being stolen fruit of the labor of others and newly minted sex slaves. They didn't work for a living so they had to steal from productive people. Muhammad's alter-ego "Allah" even gave him a special "revelation" that allowed him to steal his step-sons only wife.

What a gem that guy was.

Bukhari B59 #459 Narrated Ibn Muhairiz: I entered the Mosque and saw Abu Said Al-Khudri and sat beside him and asked him about Al-Azl (i.e. coitus interruptus). Abu Said said, "We went out with Allah's Apostle for the Ghazwa of Banu Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus......"


polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 7:36am:

When religious leaders adopt systems and institutions that are familiar to the people that leader is attempting to convert, its not necessarily a sign of a fraud.

No, like I said, Muhammad wanted to profit from Kaaba Inc. the way his uncle had.
prophetofdoom.net/Prophet_of_Doom_24_Profitable_Prophet_Plan.Islam

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 7:36am:

When religious leaders adopt systems and institutions that are familiar to the people that leader is attempting to convert, its not necessarily a sign of a fraud. Just like the christians adopted .......

Constantine did, from having been a pagan sun worshiper previously, and thus the solar blazes and such of the Roman Church. Some question as to whether he was ever a Christian, but was more in bondage to his flesh, since he waited until he was on his death bed to be baptized. A good read on the subject of how paganism crept into part of the "church" is "Pagan Christianity" by Frank Viola.


polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 7:36am:

..... a whole host of Greek/Roman pagan rituals as a ploy to make the transformation of the people smoother.

Thank you for your tacit admission that Muhammad did in fact keep Kaaba Inc. going to keep the pagan's interested in fattening the coffers, as Muslims continue to do for Saudi Arabia unto this day, and as pagan Star Family worshipers did long before Muhammad was born. Men will do what men do.

Certainly the Gospel does not allow such deception.

Rom 3:7 8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

Nor does the one true God of the scriptures of Jews and Christians need lies, nor anything more than His Word:

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Since Jesus IS truth, the only way we can follow Him is in all truth:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 7:36am:

By the way, the concept of the "sacrifice for our sins" has roots in pre-christian pagan mythology.

While the Canaanites sacrificed children to idols, it certainly wasn't for remission of sin.
And your ignorance of the revelation of the one true God of the scriptures - YHWH - is appalling, for someone that engages in religious discussion. The concept of sacrifice for sin did indeed long predate the Christian era. That was of course the whole purpose of the alter in the temple that Yahweh had His people build on the temple mount in Jerusalem.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul.

blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=atonement+sin&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1

And the sacrifice of the Lamb of God was prophesied many hundreds of years before the event, and even hundreds of years before crucifixion was ever even invented:

Psalms 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.   17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me.   18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
islamandthetruth.com/psalms_22.htm#psalms_22_16

Fulfilled just as prophesied:
Matthew 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

Isaiah 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.   6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.   7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.   8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
islamandthetruth.com/isaiah_53.htm


polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 7:36am:

Just like the christians adopted a whole host of Greek/Roman pagan rituals as a ploy to make the transformation of the people smoother.

Men creating unchristian counter-gospel tradition accomplished the exact opposite, as you yourself, aptly demonstrate. Particularly the Roman church murder of Jews and Muslims - but as most conveniently leave out - Roman Church murder of CHRISTIANS as well.
homecomers.org/mirror/

Thus people who desire to run and hide from God, wish to believe that murder of innocents is what Christianity is about, when in fact the Gospel is about the exact opposite, and loving even our enemies. The Godless thus blinded by Satan to what Christians are actually doing:
Like bringing hope and healing around the world
mercyships.org
Freeing Islam's slaves:
youtube.com/watch?v=l1j8D1j9mEc

Many of Muhammad's followers also wishing that murder and rape is of the Lord, since Muhammad had innocent, peaceful, faithful Jewish farm boys brought before him and beheaded, while he and his boys had their way with their little sisters, moms and grandmothers - let alone Muhammad's imperialistic conquest.

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 10:44pm:

Psalms 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? 16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.   17 I may tell all my bones: they look [and] stare upon me.   18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture

That's a piece of poetry, not a prophesy.  Who's to say that didn't later influence what was written down in scripture?  Or going by your own yardstick, does that mean we can take everything is Psalms as a prophecy? 

Oh, could we get back onto the title topic?  I think we're getting a bit off track.

wally1 wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 2:38pm:

Your alittle confused my friend. Christians see the spirit as a diety, a figure, a god like figure.

Why just dither on in your own empty false words Wally? Christians understand that God has a Spirit, just as Jews do.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

It is how God reveals Himself in men:

Exd 31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

The Quran also acknowledges that Muhammad's alter-ego "Allah" has a spirit:

Sura 15.29: "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

Thus by the same measure that Muslims apply to Christians, Muslims are polytheistic hypocrites, since they believe in two parts of what has been dubbed the "trinity". Believing in God and believing that God has a Spirit.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/the_trinity.htm

The Spirit of God that was sent in Jesus name, is how Christians are connected to God through His Spirit, when Christians are born again.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

It is how we become a part of the temple of God: Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

No surprise then that Satan, through his "messenger" Muhammad, has convinced Muhammad's followers that to pray in Jesus name is to commit the ONLY UNFORGIVABLE SIN in Muhammadanism. A sin worse than cold-blooded mass murder, or child rape for example, which may be forgiven (and both of which Muhammad happened to be guilty of).

Does a god that would make praying in Jesus name - as each and every Christian has done for nearly 2,000 years - a worse sin than child rape or cold-blooded mass murder, strike you as being a just god Wally? Would you consider that to be justice?


wally1 wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 2:38pm:

For example the three in one God which people are brainwashed with. Muslims see spirit as the soul and not as some figure or god like structure.

But only as your imagination has fooled you into believing Wally, through the child-like imaginations of a single, stand-alone, 7th century, SW Arabian desert dwelling illiterate.

Jews, Christians and Muslims all believe that God has a Spirit. We all also believe that He can impart His Spirit into men.


wally1 wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 2:38pm:

God created the physical part of the humans, but put in it the soul to bring it into life.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 7:36am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 1st, 2014 at 2:34am: Muhammad adopted, adapted and thinly veneered the Quraish pagan's moon, sun star and jinn-devil worship rituals so he could keep Kaaba Inc going. ...or could it be that the Quraish pagans had adapted the the monotheism of Abraham that had come before them?

You are trying to excuse away what you recognize as a conspicuous lie, with an absolutely preposterous notion. That the Quraish pagan's that built their Kaaba in the 5th century for veneration of 360 idols, including their black stone idol that Muhammad's followers continue to venerate to this day, do so in a town that did not exist prior to the 4th century AD.

As you have now been shown in the history of Mecca thread, and recognize, it is a historical and geographical impossibility, that Abraham, Hagar or Ishmael could have ever had anything to do with the town of Mecca, that was not even settled until the 4th century AD.
So no, your suggestion is not only ridiculous, but it remains a historical and geographical impossibility.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388067196/43#43

Islamic "tradition" is lie upon lie upon lie, layer upon layer upon layer. That can be easily recognized through Islam's own books.
http://www.brotherpete.com/origins_of_islam.htm


polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 1^st, 2014 at 7:36am:

When religious leaders adopt systems and institutions that are familiar to the people that leader is attempting to convert, its not necessarily a sign of a fraud. Just like the christians adopted a whole host of Greek/Roman pagan rituals as a ploy to make the transformation of the people smoother. By the way, the concept of the "sacrifice for our sins" has roots in pre-christian pagan mythology.

You are denigrating your own religion.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388584924/0#5

Just curious, what does the Koran actually say about the origin of the black stone?

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 9:49am:

I'm not really sure where (if anywhere) in the islamic texts it says shirk is the greatest sin.

How could the ONLY UNFORGIVABLE sin not be the greatest sin?
In other words those that hold the doctrine of Christ and confess that Jesus is the Son of God, and pray in Jesus' name as Christians have for nearly 2,000 years, are guilty of the false prophet Muhammad's only unforgivable sin. Christians that are commanded to love our neighbor as ourselves.
While sins like child rape, prisoner rape and cold-blooded mass murder may be forgiven in Islam.
All of which as it happens, Muhammad was guilty.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/jesus_or_muhammad.htm

Does that describe a just God to you gandalf?

Thus Muhammad's followers are ANTICHRIST because of your faith in the false prophet Muhammad alone.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388067196/46#46


polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 31^st, 2013 at 9:49am:

Its easy to see why it was emphasised so heavilly during Prophet Muhammad's time though - the people during that time did worship Allah, and recognised him as the supreme God. However they also set up subordinate partners to him, and set up all the idols for worship inside the Kabaa. So even these "polytheists" were basically on the "right" path according to islam, but for this innovation of setting up these idols - which was only a relatively new innovation on the original "true" religion of Abraham, which the people of Arabia never really fully abandoned. Thus Muhammad's mission was more about reminding the people of their heritage, and pointing out that Allah was not merely the best of many gods, but the only one true God - rather than introducing a completely new religion. Interestingly, its said that when Muhammad took Mecca and destroyed the idols in the Kabaa, he left one in there - a statue of the virgin Mary.

The idol he did not destroy is the same idol that Muhammad's followers prostrate themselves toward five times a day, and travel to and march around 7 times as the Arabian pagans did before Muhammad was ever born. Kissing the Quraish pagan's black stone idol, or if too crowded, at least pointing to it on each trip around.

http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/0f00e680.jpg