Re copyright, much of the following is copy and pasted from my own site.
historyofmecca.com
My own search for information began after having read (first language is Arabic) Dr. Rafat Amari's "Islam: In Light of History". It is an encapsulation of a 20-year full time study of Islam and Arabia, including original source material and investigation of archaeological evidence in Arabia. A lot of great material is available on his site at: religionresearchinstitute.org

Beliefs of Jews and Christians are based on the 1600 year record of revelation of our great God - YHWH - whose people have followed Him through two covenants for 3500 years. That record of revelation is well supported through archaeological and historical evidence, as well as physical geography, and particularly through fulfilled prophecy, while even being supportable mathematically.
beyondtheharbinger.com

No shortage of atheists and agnostics that finally, actually, bother to honestly investigate the evidence, have come into relationship with Jesus Christ, as a result of a genuine effort to seek out the truth - ironically, often in efforts to find evidence to debunk Judeo-Christian beliefs.
allaboutthejourney.org

Same with honest seekers who formerly followed Muhammad alone, through his stand-alone 23-year 7th century record.
muslimjourneytohope.com
The false prophet who fills his followers with complete resolve to DISbelieve the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel.
falseprophetmuhammad.com

Thus the foundation of Muhammad's anti-religion is important for everyone to understand whether one is religious or not. Mecca or Makkah, is the historical and geographical epicenter of Islam. All practicing Muslims, everywhere in the world, prostrate themselves toward the Kaaba in Mecca five times a day. Every Muslim is obliged to travel to Mecca, and perform the Islamic ritual of the Hajj at least once in their lifetime, because it is the "fifth pillar" of Islam. Islamic tradition teaches that the Kaaba, around which Islam revolves, is located in the center of the world and was the first temple on earth. Islamic tradition further holds that it was built by Adam (Adem) and later rebuilt by Abraham and Ishmael (Ibrahim, Ismail).

The archaeological record of Arabia stands as one of the best preserved on earth, because the relatively low rainfall results in less damage to the archaeological evidence. Many ancient towns such as  Yemen, Qudar, Dedan, Tiema, Mada'in Saleh (Al-Hijr), Magan (Oman) and Dilmun are well attested in the historical and archaeological record, and even attest to each other. Some have even been selected as "world heritage" sites. The historical record of Arabia even includes small Arabian towns, established before the Christian era, that came and went within a few centuries.

The history of Mecca makes for an interesting Internet search. Try:
archaeology of mecca - or -
historical and archaeological evidence mecca - or -
ancient towns of Arabia
Here's a Wikipedia article on Ancient Towns in Saudi Arabia.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Towns_in_Saudi_Arabia

The reason Mecca is not listed as an ancient town is because it isn't. What we do learn from Internet searches is that there is not a shred of historical or archaeological evidence, that suggests that Mecca ever existed before around the 4th century A.D., when immigrants from Yemen settled the area and built their Kaaba in the early 5th century A.D. for Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship. Additionally, Mecca was settled some distance away, from what became (after the 6th century BC) one of the most established trade routes in Arabia about which historical record abounds. A route that was not established until about a thousand years after Abraham walked the earth.

Thus the scripture-contrary, archaeologically absent, Islamic "tradition", that suggests thousands of years of pre-6th century AD history, is easily recognized as created fiction, that was all put to the pen in the 7th to 10th centuries AD, without reference to any actual historical record that preceded the 6th century AD.

Compare the absence of pre-4th century historical record of Mecca, with the massive volume of evidence of Jerusalem, the historical and geographical epicenter of Judaism and Christianity. Try
archaeology of Jerusalem - or -
historical and archaeological evidence jerusalem - or -
temple jerusalem - or -
archaeology supports the bible

One quickly learns that archaeology increasingly confirms the Bible as a reliable source of ancient historical record. One can hardly lift a shovel of earth anywhere near Jerusalem without having it contain ancient artifacts. Indeed there are a million artifacts just on display!

What we learn about Islamic so-called tradition, about a town that did not exist prior to the 4th century AD that is located 1200 kilometers away from THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs, is that particularly Islamic rituals, are adopted, adapted and thinly veneered Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship rituals, that were also practiced by Arabian pagans for some time before Muhammad was even born. Even some of Muhammad's closest followers didn't like to engage in them as they recognized them as recycled jinn-devil worship rituals.

"I asked Anas bin Malik: "Did you use to dislike to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?" He said, "Yes, as it was of the ceremonies of the days of the Pre-lslamic period of ignorance..."
brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm#al_safa_al_marwah

Hopefully we can get by without having to suffer the usual knee-jerk citations of 18th century Edward Gibbons misunderstanding, or a convenient misreading of Ptolemy and such, as if a few quotes could magically create 4,500 years of pre-Muhammad history and archaeology for Islam.
historyofmecca.com/historical_claims.htm

And please spare us the argumentum ad ignorantiam of suggestion that just because there is not a shred of pre-4th century evidence of Mecca, doesn't mean that Mecca did not exist. Obviously a particularly inappropriate argument in this case, since other ancient Arabian towns are well attested in the historical and archaeological record of Mecca.
historyofmecca.com/origins_of_islam.htm

Instead try bringing some EVIDENCE that suggests that Mecca existed before, as the actual historical record tells us, immigrants from Yemen settled the area around the 4th century AD, and built their kaaba in the early 5th century AD for Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship.
religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/construction.htm

This subject is THE smoking gun, through which not only God's people, but even atheists and agnostics can appreciate, and help to slay Islam and rescue the world from the onslaught of Islamic Jihad.
Let alone saving the world from being conquered and subjugated to denying the crucifixion of Christ and thus his shed blood - the whole subject of the Gospel - and denying the Son of God, as articles of faith in Muhammad alone. Conquering Islam itself, before your heirs are subjugated to prostrating themselves toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol and kaaba in Mecca five times a day, while praying in the "vain repetitions as the heathen do" as the scriptures describe it, in the names of the Arabian pagan deity "Allah" and his "messenger" Muhammad.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/the_name_allah.htm

Try taking an honest look, like this Muslim Eastern History teacher, that exhibits an uncommon capacity for truth and critical thought: "Upon further study of the facts concerning Macoraba, we can conclude with certainty that Macoraba can’t be Mecca, and we can refute the idea that Mecca was built in the 2nd century A.D. All the facts point to the historical argument that Mecca was constructed in the 4th century A.D."
yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091231160732AAlTMZx

Pete Waldo wrote on Dec 27^th, 2013 at 12:13am:

.....there is not a shred of historical or archaeological evidence, that suggests that Mecca ever existed before around the 4th century A.D., when immigrants from Yemen settled the area and built their Kaaba in the early 5th century A.D.

gandalf,

Is it true, that there is no hard evidence, that Mecca existed before around the 4th century A.D. ???

As a moslem, and because Mecca as a historical town/city, Mecca must have a great religious significance to your moslem heart, .....as a moslem do you have any evidence that Mecca existed as a town or city, before the 4th century A.D. ?

Just wondering if you know Gandalf (or anyone who knows) what is the significance of this?  Is there a particular reason that Mecca being an ancient city is important to a Muslim? 

Stratos wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 5:20pm:

Is there a particular reason that Mecca being an ancient city is important to a Muslim?

Muslims face Mecca when they tap their heads on the ground with their asses in the air while praying,watch them pray and you can see why they dont like homos,all those asses in the air would be paradise for a poofter.

Mecca was once a multicultural city with over 360 gods worshipped at the Ka'ba before Mohammad imposed the first religious dictatorship which outlawed all other gods.

Yeah I know the significance of Mecca to Islam, I'm curious as to why it is a big deal that it is ancient too.

Stratos wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 5:20pm:

Just wondering if you know Gandalf (or anyone who knows) what is the significance of this?  Is there a particular reason that Mecca being an ancient city is important to a Muslim?

Not to me.

Islamic tradition states that Abraham's concubine Hagar was sent away when she was pregnant with Ishmael. She got lost in the desert and eventually was saved when she discovered (by God's help) the natural spring of zamzam. Abraham then (allegedly) built the Kabah over the spring as a sort of shrine to the miracle and mercy of Allah.

That is the legend, but I don't see why it must be at the site of Mecca. The important thing is the miracle and the test that Hagar and Abraham both passed. Why does it matter the exact geographical location? Christians and jews don't get hung up on the exact geographical locations of the garden of eden, or where Noah's ark landed - because its not important to the religious message.

The proof to me that Mecca and the Kabah isn't a critically important geographic location for islam is that in the early years of islam, Prophet Muhammad instructed his followers to pray towards Jerusalem. Changing this to Mecca was merely a recognition of the cultural importance of Mecca to the Arabian people of that time - and the practical consideration that it might attract more followers. But why does it matter to islam what direction we pray? The important thing is we all pray in the one direction to symbolise a oneness and unity in islam.

Stratos wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 5:53pm:

Yeah I know the significance of Mecca to Islam, I'm curious as to why it is a big deal that it is ancient too.

You should see what it was like before Islam in what muslims call the pre islamic period of ignorance.

www.sunnah.com/search/pre-islamic-period-of-ignorance

I guess most muslims are stuck in the Islamic period of ignorance.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 6:02pm:

The proof to me that Mecca and the Kabah isn't a critically important geographic location for islam is that in the early years of islam, Prophet Muhammad instructed his followers to pray towards Jerusalem. Changing this to Mecca was merely a recognition of the cultural importance of Mecca to the Arabian people of that time - and the practical consideration that it might attract more followers. But why does it matter to islam what direction we pray? The important thing is we all pray in the one direction to symbolise a oneness and unity in islam.

Mohammad was making it up as he went along which is why there were changes,he did order dogs be killed then allowed hunting and guard dogs then said only black dogs should be killed, does that sound like a wise all knowing creator or a madman making things up as he went along?

Stratos wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 5:20pm:

Just wondering if you know Gandalf (or anyone who knows) what is the significance of this?  Is there a particular reason that Mecca being an ancient city is important to a Muslim?

Moslems claim that the Kabaa was constructed by Abraham and his son(s), long before the Christian era.

CONTRAST;


1/ Moslems claim that long before the Christian era the Kabaa was constructed by Abraham and his son(s).




2/ But moslems insist, that the Old Testament, Jewish Temples, never existed.                 ;)

Honest!             ;D



e.g.


Quote:

[quote] Chief Muslim claims Jewish Temples never existed March 15, 2007 "....The Jewish Temples never existed.......descriptions of the Jewish Temples in the Hebrew Tanach, in the Talmud and in Byzantine and Roman writings from the Temple periods were forged, and that the Torah was falsified to claim Biblical patriarchs and matriarchs were Jewish when indeed they were prophets for Islam."

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=40628




Quote:

Temple Mount '100% Islamic' June 01, 2008 "....Taysir Tamimi, chief Palestinian Justice and one of the most influential Muslim leaders in Israel, argued the Jewish Temples never existed,...."

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=65919



n.b. n.b. n.b......
How moslems re-act when historic accounts [from different sources], contradict the moslem narrative....

".....descriptions of the Jewish Temples in the Hebrew Tanach, in the Talmud and in Byzantine and Roman writings from the Temple periods were forged,...."

But of course they were!             :D

I always believe what the moslems tell me, don't you ?

[/quote]


n.b.
The article links are old, but the articles are kosher.

Yadda wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 6:24pm:

Stratos wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 5:20pm: Just wondering if you know Gandalf (or anyone who knows) what is the significance of this?  Is there a particular reason that Mecca being an ancient city is important to a Muslim?  Moslems claim that the Kabaa was constructed by Abraham and his son(s), long before the Christian era.

The kabaa was first created by Adam.

Is it just me, or are the spiritual aspects of Islam even more absurd than the political bits?

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 10:08pm:

Is it just me, or are the spiritual aspects of Islam even more absurd than the political bits?

Interesting question.

The spiritual aspects do not pose a threat.
The political ones do pose a threat.

wally1 wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 8:35pm:

Yadda wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 6:24pm: Stratos wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 5:20pm: Just wondering if you know Gandalf (or anyone who knows) what is the significance of this?  Is there a particular reason that Mecca being an ancient city is important to a Muslim?  Moslems claim that the Kabaa was constructed by Abraham and his son(s), long before the Christian era. The kabaa was first created by Adam.

wally1,

Does that mean then, that moslems believe that Adam [of 'Adam and Eve'] was the founder of Mecca ?
[i.e. in accordance with ISLAMIC history/tradition.]

wally1 wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 8:35pm:

The kabaa was first created by Adam.

Do you mean Abraham?

Stratos wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 11:31pm:

wally1 wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 8:35pm: The kabaa was first created by Adam. Do you mean Abraham?

I think wally1 means ADAM.

Just a guess.

Yadda wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 11:39pm:

I think wally1 means ADAM. Just a guess.

I think he might have meant Abraham, from Wikipedia


Quote:

According to Quran and Islamic tradition the Kaaba was built by Ibrahim (Abraham). It is stated in the Qur'an that this was the first house that was built for humanity to worship Allah (God).

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 10:08pm:

Is it just me, or are the spiritual aspects of Islam even more absurd than the political bits?

What do you think is so absurd about the spiritual aspects?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 11:52pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 10:08pm: Is it just me, or are the spiritual aspects of Islam even more absurd than the political bits? What do you think is so absurd about the spiritual aspects?

That Allah got it so, so wrong, about Mohammed's character, for a start ?


"Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah. "
Koran 33.21



"...the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260


Then there are all of those excellent Arab women, that [married] Mohammed and his [married] companions committed adultery with.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 6:02pm:

Stratos wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 5:20pm: Just wondering if you know Gandalf (or anyone who knows) what is the significance of this?  Is there a particular reason that Mecca being an ancient city is important to a Muslim? Not to me. Islamic tradition states that Abraham's concubine Hagar was sent away when she was pregnant with Ishmael.

Yet THE ENTIRETY of Islamic that-you-can-only-call "tradition", was all created from thin air in the 7th to 10th centuries AD, without reference to any actual historical record that preceded the 5th century.

So the first thing you are going to have to explain, is how a bunch of semi-literate SW Arabian desert dwellers knew what went on thousands of years before they lived.


polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 6:02pm:

She got lost in the desert and eventually was saved when she discovered (by God's help) the natural spring of zamzam. Abraham then (allegedly) built the Kabah over the spring as a sort of shrine to the miracle and mercy of Allah.

According to the same 7th to 10th century SW Arabian desert dwellers, that lived thousands of years after Abraham.
But it's far worse than that. The Holy Scriptures inform us that Hagar and Ishmael wandered in Beersheba, where she found a well, which is just south of Hebron, where Abraham lived and where Muslims continue to travel to visit, and desecrate, his grave today.

But for the scripture-contrary Islamic account to be true, Hagar and Ishmael would have had to wander across 1200 kilometers of harsh barren unexplored untraveled desert, around a thousand years before the actual historical record tells us a caravan route was established along the Red Sea, to arrive in a town that didn't even exist until two millenniums after Hagar and Ishmael roamed the earth.


polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 6:02pm:

That is the legend, but I don't see why it must be at the site of Mecca.

Because if it isn't, then everything Muslims have been taught about Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael for 1400 years, is easily demonstrated to be the falsehood that it is.

In order to resolve this geographical impossibility, Ibn Ishak invented the notion that Abraham and Ishmael regularly traveled back and forth the 1200 kilometers between Hebron and Mecca, on flying donkey-mules, like the one that Muhammad claimed he rode on one night.
brotherpete.com/mohammeds_night_journey.htm

Is this your solution to the geographical impossibility as well?
If not, then how do you suppose Ishmael traveled the 1200 kilometers from Mecca to Hebron, in time to join Isaac to bury their father?


polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 6:02pm:

The important thing is the miracle and the test that Hagar and Abraham both passed. Why does it matter the exact geographical location?

It is a part of the very basis of Islam, and the source of the profiteering of the Saudis, from Muhammad's followers traveling to Mecca and marching around the Quraish pagan's black stone idol and Kaaba as the Arabian pagans did before Muhammad was ever born.
brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm


polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 6:02pm:

Christians and jews don't get hung up on the exact geographical locations of the garden of eden, or where Noah's ark landed - because its not important to the religious message.

That's right. Because ever since Jesus built our temple in 3 days, His followers have been His temple.
beholdthebeast.com/temple_of_god.htm

YOU on the other hand, are not only obligated to prostrate yourself toward the Quraish pagan's idol and kaaba in Mecca daily, but are even obligated to travel to it (as the pagan's did), as one of the PILLARS of Islam. Pillars may not matter to "hypocrites" but they certainly do to Muhammad's true followers.


polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 6:02pm:

The proof to me that Mecca and the Kabah isn't a critically important geographic location for islam is that in the early years of islam, Prophet Muhammad instructed his followers to pray towards Jerusalem. Changing this to Mecca was merely a recognition of the cultural importance of Mecca to the Arabian people of that time - and the practical consideration that it might attract more followers.

That should indicate enough to you about Islam to run like a scalded dog from it. But the truth is even worse. Muhammad imitated Jews and not only had his followers pray toward Jerusalem, but even observed the Sabbath. But after the Jews of Medina rejected him as a prophet - since their books clearly indicate he could only be a false prophet - Muhammad got mad and switched the quibla from Jerusalem to the Quraish pagan's kaaba in Mecca, and switched his "Holy" day from the Sabbath to Friday, as he began to abandon even the pretense of religiosity by slaughtering the Medina Jews as Islam became an aggressive imperialistic political machine of conquest and subjugation of others.
brotherpete.com/banu_qurayza_massacre.htm


polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 6:02pm:

But why does it matter to islam what direction we pray? The important thing is we all pray in the one direction to symbolise a oneness and unity in islam.

The actual important thing, is that Muhammad's followers do indeed prostrate toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca, as did Muhammad and the pagans before him.

freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 10:08pm:

Is it just me, or are the spiritual aspects of Islam even more absurd than the political bits?

Tragically, much worse than absurd. First, Islam cannot be reasonably recognized as a religion, as much as an anti-religion, and cult that follows Muhammad alone.
youtube.com/watch?v=ujUOZyrnewE

Islam is not just some other religion, like Hinduism or Buddhism, but Islam is to the Gospel as the negative is to a photograph. Muhammad's followers must reject the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, as an article of their faith in Muhammad alone, because Muhammad fills them with complete resolve specifically to DISbelieve the crucifixion of Christ.
falseprophetmuhammad.com

Hundreds of verses in the Gospel cite God the Father, and His Son, through which He manifest Himself to the world. The false prophet Muhammad's followers DENY and blaspheme the Son of God, as another article of their faith in Muhammad alone.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Yet five centuries after the scriptures were complete, far beyond simple denial of the Son of God, Muhammad even engaged in unvarnished blasphemy against Him:

Quran Surah 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

Thus Muhammad's followers are specifically ANTICHRIST, according to the source that introduces and defines the term:

1 John 2:22  Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:

falseprophetmuhammad.com/islam_is_antichrist.htm

Muhammad's followers are sooooo antichrist, they are taught that for them to confess that Jesus is the Son of God, or even pray in Jesus' name (as Christians have for nearly 2,000 years) is to commit the ONLY UNFORGIVABLE sin in Muhammad's STAND-ALONE anti-religion. A sin worse than, for example, cold-blooded mass murder or child rape, which may be forgiven.
ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388407613

No surprise then, that since Muhammad's followers follow the father of lies and are thus unable to defend what they believe, they are instead commanded to conquer and subjugate all non-Muslims to themselves.

Bukhari, V1 B2 #24 Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle....
falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm

To subjugate the whole world to eventually DISbelieve the crucifixion of Christ, and thus REJECT the sin atoning blood He shed for us all, and DENY the Son of God, as articles of faith in the false prophet Muhammad alone.

Faith in a scripture-contrary, counter-religion with a pre-Muhammad history-devoid, archaeology-absent, reality-rejecting, geographically-impossible so-called "tradition", that masquerades as thousands of years of pre-Muhammad history, yet was all created and put to the pen in the 7th to 10th centuries AD without reference to any actual historical record that preceded the 5th century AD.

A counter-YHWH anti-religion of the "children of the flesh" with a carnal tradition of prostrating toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol and Kaaba in Mecca five times a day - located 1200 kilometers away from the Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs - while praying in the "vain repetitions as the heathen do", in the names of the Arabian pagan deity "Allah" and his "messenger" Muhammad.
brotherpete.com/children_flesh.htm
Even compelled to perform adopted, adapted and thinly veneered pagan Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship rituals.
brotherpete.com/hajj___umrah.htm#al_safa_al_marwah

With one third of mankind in the world today believing that Christ was crucified, died and was resurrected from the dead, as revealed through the prophets and witnesses of the 1600 year record of revelation of the one true God to mankind, whose people have followed Him through two covenants for 3500 years......

.....and a directly opposing one quarter of mankind in the anti-religion of Islam required to DISbelieve the whole subject of the Gospel, and thus REJECT the sin-atoning shed blood of the Messiah, and to DENY the Son of God - as articles of their faith in Muhammad alone. Commanded to conquer and subjugate everyone to doing the same.

You would think that the stunning spiritual nature of this conflict, should be enough, to get the attention of even a staunch atheist.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/muhammad_islam_in_bible_prophecy.htm

Let alone all the other information we have access to.
islamandthetruth.com/bible_prophecy.htm

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 2:48am:

Islam is not just some other religion, like Hinduism or Buddhism, but Islam is to the Gospel as the negative is to a photograph. Muhammad's followers must reject the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, as an article of their faith in Muhammad alone

Why is this particular to Islam?  Jews also reject the whole subject of the gospel by denying that Jesus was their messiah, and no religion other than Christian takes the Gospel as...Gospel. Hindu's have no need for Jesus in their beliefs, and neither do Buddhists.  because of their respective beliefs in reincarnation, Jesus death for their sins is just as pointless.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 2:48am:

1 John 2:22  Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:

So someone who doesn't believe that Jesus was lord is now an antichrist?  Congratulations, your definition includes everybody apart from Christians, which covers a much larger scope than Islam.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 2:48am:

Muhammad's followers are sooooo antichrist, they are taught that for them to confess that Jesus is the Son of God, or even pray in Jesus' name (as Christians have for nearly 2,000 years) is to commit the ONLY UNFORGIVABLE sin in Muhammad's STAND-ALONE anti-religion. A sin worse than, for example, cold-blooded mass murder or child rape, which may be forgiven.

where to start...
Your definition before of an antichrist was someone who doesn't believe that Jesus is lord, so you can't have levels of antichristness.  You are or you aren't.  According to your own definition you are being misleading
I'm pretty sure Christians have something against bearing false witness.  Number nine in some important list somewhere?  Shirk is indeed forgivable, and is not for the worship of Jesus specifically, but for worshiping Gods alongside Allah, same as it is in many monotheistic religions. 


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 2:48am:

and a directly opposing one quarter of mankind in the anti-religion of Islam required to DISbelieve the whole subject of the Gospel

Only too happy to link Catholics to Paganism when it suits you, but more than happy to include them in your statistics when you try to score points against a religion you hate even more.  Firstly, there are around 2 billion Christians in the world, out of 7 billion people.  Not quite a third, so you get a pass this time, and secondly, approximately half of the people you are referring to are Catholics. 

Stratos wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 11:44pm:

Yadda wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 11:39pm: I think wally1 means ADAM. Just a guess. I think he might have meant Abraham, from Wikipedia Quote: According to Quran and Islamic tradition the Kaaba was built by Ibrahim (Abraham). It is stated in the Qur'an that this was the first house that was built for humanity to worship Allah (God).

I understand that, but adam first build parts of the kabba in mecca, but was later destroyed in a storm.

Many tribes and nations did reconstruct the kabaa but the most emphasis in islam and Christianity is the reconstruction by Abraham.

The remains of kabaa was there long before Abraham.

wally1 wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 9:29am:

Stratos wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 11:44pm: Yadda wrote on Jan 3rd, 2014 at 11:39pm: I think wally1 means ADAM. Just a guess. I think he might have meant Abraham, from Wikipedia Quote: According to Quran and Islamic tradition the Kaaba was built by Ibrahim (Abraham). It is stated in the Qur'an that this was the first house that was built for humanity to worship Allah (God). I understand that, but adam first build parts of the kabba in mecca, but was later destroyed in a storm.

Wally, we can all WISH the tooth fairy were real, but I think you would agree, that simply wishing something won't make it magically become truth.

Through what EVIDENCE can you support the preposterous claim that Adam built the Kaaba?


wally1 wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 9:29am:

Many tribes and nations did reconstruct the kabaa .......

Through what EVIDENCE do you believe this?


wally1 wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 9:29am:

...... but the most emphasis in islam and Christianity is the reconstruction by Abraham.

That is absolutely ridiculous Wally, and I would advise you not to speak for Christians, when you are obviously in such abject ignorance of, and blinded by the enemy to, what we believe.
falseprophetmuhammad.com
No Christian could believe such nonsense, because the God of the Jews and Christians had His people build His temple, on the temple mount in Jerusalem. In THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs.
historyofmecca.com/#temple

The ACTUAL historical, archaeological and geographical EVIDENCE, indicate that Abraham was never within 1,000 kilometers of where Mecca was eventually settled in the 4th century AD, and lived over 2,000 years before the ACTUAL historical record of Arabia informs us that pagan Yemeni immigrants, built the kaaba in the early 5th century AD for Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship.
Do you understand what I am saying? The Kaaba is located 1200 kilometers AWAY from THE Holy Land of the prophets and patriarchs. Let alone that Abraham lived over a thousand years before the actual historical record indicates a caravan route was established along the Red Sea in Arabia.

The following link details the ACTUAL history of the Kaaba and the well of ZamZam:
religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/construction.htm


wally1 wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 9:29am:

The remains of kabaa was there long before Abraham.

We can believe in flying donkey-mules if we WISH to, but simply believing someone's entirely unwitnessed tall tale about one, certainly won't magically make flying donkey-mules come true.
brotherpete.com/mohammeds_night_journey.htm

There's a vast difference between faith and foolhardiness.

As requested in the OP, and requested again of gandalf, please present the evidence that supports your claims. You'll notice that while gandalf participated in the forum yesterday, he did not respond to my post. Can you guess why that is?

The EVIDENCE obviously can't come from something written in the 7th to 10th centuries AD, penned thousands of years after Adam and Abraham, without reference to any actual historical or archaeological record.

Here's a Muslim Eastern History teacher on the subject of the history of Mecca:
answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091231160732AAlTMZx

Stratos wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 8:38am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 4th, 2014 at 2:48am: Islam is not just some other religion, like Hinduism or Buddhism, but Islam is to the Gospel as the negative is to a photograph. Muhammad's followers must reject the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel, as an article of their faith in Muhammad alone Why is this particular to Islam?

Again the reading and comprehension. I often bold or enlarge to emphasize parts of sentences to help, but unfortunately didn't in this case.


Stratos wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 8:38am:

Jews also reject the whole subject of the gospel by denying that Jesus was their messiah, .......

Nowhere are Jews required to deny that Jesus is their Messiah, through their scriptures, or as an article of their faith. The New Testament puts it like this:

1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

The New Testament indicates that some Jews may be blinded by God Himself, so they can't sin against the Gospel.
israelinbibleprophecy.com/spirit_of_slumber.htm

Let alone that though Jews may not recognize Jesus as their Messiah, they nonetheless anticipate the coming of their promised Son:

Isaiah 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

They may be sovereignly blinded to the fulfillment:

Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Confirmed as fulfilled in Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Now perhaps you believe Isaac Newton to be a dummy because he believed in the God of the Jews and Christians, but here's how he put it, while he was also writing about anticipating the restoration of Jews to Israel, hundreds of years before that restoration ever began:

“Hence I observe these things, first that the restauration of the Jewish nation so much spoken of by the old Prophets respects not the few Jews who were converted in the Apostles days, but the dispersed nation of the unbelieving Jews to be converted in the end when the fullness of the Gentiles shall enter, that is when the Gospel (upon the fall of Babylon) shall begin to be preached to all nations. Secondly that the prophecies of Isaiah described above by being here cited by the Apostle is limited to respect the time of the future conversion and restitution of the Jewish Nation, and thirdly that the humour which has long reigned among the Christians of boasting our selves against the Jews, and insulting over them for their not believing, is reprehended by the Apostle for high –mindedness and self-conceipt, and much more is our using them despightfully, Pharisaicall and impious”
zionismchristian.com/zionism_in_christianity.htm

He was railing against Roman Church style punitive supersessionism:
christianeschatology.com/supersessionism_replacement_theology.htm

You even have the benefit of being able to see the stunning miracle of the fulfillment of Jews being restored to their land in hindsight - after 1200 years of Islam rendered Israel a desolate, desertified, denuded, depopulated, wasteland by the beginning of the 19th century, with Jews rebuilding it to become one of the world's most technologically innovative and leading economies, and that tiny little strip of land becoming a geopolitical focus of the world - yet you still reject the God of the scriptures of Jews and Christians.
zionismchristian.com/zionism_in_prophecy.htm

I wouldn't even be surprised if you were anti-Zionism.

Now unlike Judaism, the ANTI-religion of Islam is specifically antichrist, AS AN ARTICLE OF THEIR FAITH in Muhammad alone.

Quran Surah 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!

Even commanded to fight and subjugate Christians to DISbelieving what they DISbelieve.

Quran Surah 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

Bukhari, V1 B2 #24 Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle.....

Of course it would be pure blasphemy for a Christian to make that confession since Muhammad DISbelieved the crucifixion of Christ and thus REJECTED His shed blood - the WHOLE SUBJECT of the Gospel - and DENIED and blasphemed the Son of God.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/islam_is_antichrist.htm

Stratos wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 8:38am:

..... and no religion other than Christian takes the Gospel as...Gospel. Hindu's have no need for Jesus in their beliefs, and neither do Buddhists.

I would put it more like they do have a "need for Jesus in their beliefs" but just don't realize it.


Stratos wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 8:38am:

because of their respective beliefs in reincarnation, Jesus death for their sins is just as pointless.

It is sad, but to my limited knowledge of those religions, I don't believe that anywhere do their scriptures require them to specifically DISbelieve Jesus' crucifixion, and deny the Son of God, as articles of their faith.

The way my scriptures put it, it is all about what a person understands:

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

So if someone is too young to fully understand, or someone is mentally handicapped to understand, or perhaps lives in a remote area and has never had the opportunity to receive the Gospel, they can't transgress a law that they don't have. So perhaps it all depends on how much someone knows.

But for those such as yourself, since you have even deceived yourself into believing you were once a Christian, would indicate that you have a very good understanding of the Gospel. In all likelihood you will stand in judgment as being fully accountable.

2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


Stratos wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 8:38am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 4th, 2014 at 2:48am: 1 John 2:22  Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: So someone who doesn't believe that Jesus was lord is now an antichrist?  Congratulations, your definition .........

Since I even presented it with the book and verse number, a person with a capacity for critical thought, would realize it isn't MY definition. Besides your inability to understand the verse.


Stratos wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 8:38am:

....... includes everybody apart from Christians, which covers a much larger scope than Islam. Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 4th, 2014 at 2:48am: Muhammad's followers are sooooo antichrist, they are taught that for them to confess that Jesus is the Son of God, or even pray in Jesus' name (as Christians have for nearly 2,000 years) is to commit the ONLY UNFORGIVABLE sin in Muhammad's STAND-ALONE anti-religion. A sin worse than, for example, cold-blooded mass murder or child rape, which may be forgiven. where to start... Your definition before of an antichrist was someone who doesn't believe that Jesus is lord, .........

Why the continuing compulsion to assign things? I posted the verse, as I have before (and as explained on my websites), to specifically avoid having to waste time with wishful people putting their effort into MISunderstanding. Like the buffoonery of the famous Greek sophist styled entertainer and lying antichrist Ahmed Deedat:
islamandthetruth.com/first_epistle_john.htm


Stratos wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 8:38am:

......... so you can't have levels of antichristness.  You are or you aren't.

That is certainly true of Gentiles.


Stratos wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 8:38am:

According to your own definition you are being misleading.......

I did not define the term, my friend. I posted the scriptures that do.


Stratos wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 8:38am:

...... I'm pretty sure Christians have something against bearing false witness.

Which is, ironically, exactly what you are doing. And "Christians have something against bearing false witness", because the scriptures do.


Stratos wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 8:38am:

Number nine in some important list somewhere?  Shirk is indeed forgivable, ......

But as you already learned, ( ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1388407613/31#31 ) from an Islamic perspective it would only be forgivable, if a Christian denied the Son of God - denied that God has a Son even though it is revealed through hundreds of verses that proclaim the Father and His Son - and "repented from" praying in Jesus' name as Christians have for nearly 2,000 years to be connected to Him through the Holy Spirit.

For others such as those sorely deluded by Muhammad, but could-become brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus, if you are reading this it isn't too late............. yet:

muslimjourneytohope.com

islamandthetruth.com/jesus_the_son_of_god.htm

Stratos wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 8:38am:

Shirk is indeed forgivable, and is not for the worship of Jesus specifically, ........

Perhaps you meant not solely regarding the worship of Jesus, since there is no question it is specifically:

"The sin of shirk is to associate partners with Allah, basically this means to set up idols and false deities alongside Allah, granting them equal status to Allah, and to give them actions which are only reserved for God alone, such as worshipping them, making oaths to them, having fear and hope in them, and to sacrifice things in their name. All of this constitutes shirk, an example is the case of Jesus, those who set him up as a God, and invoke on him and pray to him are guilty of shirk, they are guilty of setting up a partner to the true God Allah."
islamandthetruth.com/shirk_unforgivable_sin.htm


Stratos wrote on Jan 1^st, 1970 at 1:51pm:

Like which? Sabian monotheistic moon god worship? Stratos wrote on Jan 1st, 1970 at 1:51pm: and a directly opposing one quarter of mankind in the anti-religion of Islam required to DISbelieve the whole subject of the Gospel Only too happy to link Catholics .........

It is Satan who puts the lie on your lips that attempts to convert a conversation about religion, as if it were about persons.

One of the most conspicuously regenerate people I know is Roman Catholic. Though even can see the error in much of the doctrine, he remains in bondage to the Roman Church. Not unusual for Catholics.


Stratos wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 8:38am:

........ to Paganism when it suits you, but more than happy to include them in your statistics .........

That's because there is no other network on earth, that is as vast as that of Christianity.


Stratos wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 8:38am:

........ when you try to score points against a religion you hate even more.

More false witness. Though not a surprise since you are unable to understand that Christianity isn't as much of a religion, as it is a relationship, through the spirit.

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Stratos wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 8:38am:

Firstly, there are around 2 billion Christians in the world, out of 7 billion people.

I didn't say about 1/3 of mankind were Christians. Again, reading and comprehension deficit. And a vast quantity of those that claim to be are not Christian, but have only deceived themselves into believing they are Christian, as you had yourself.
Let alone that there are a large number of people, that believe that Christ was crucified, died and was resurrected from the grave, but understand themselves to be unrepentant and would thus be honest enough to not characterize themselves to be Christian when asked, that are not counted in the number. Perhaps my number has become a little stale, both through prophesied apostasy in the "church", and a general increase in Godlessness.

"As of the early 21st century, Christianity has around 2.3 billion adherents, out of about 7 billion people.[1][2][3][4]"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_by_country

So let's do the math: 2.3 X 3 = 6.9

Now even though I generally qualify with the word "about", I've no doubt that you will once again continue to argue the number - just like a holocaust denier - rather than recognizing THE FACT that ABOUT 1/3 of the world believes Jesus was crucified, died and was resurrected from the grave, while an EXACTLY OPPOSING 1/4 of mankind must DISbelieve the crucifixion of Christ, as AS AN ARTICLE OF THEIR FAITH in Muhammad alone.
falseprophetmuhammad.com

One quarter of mankind that is specifically commanded to conquer and subjugate all, to DISbelieving the crucifixion of Christ as they do, and DENY the Son of God.
falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm


Stratos wrote on Jan 4^th, 2014 at 8:38am:

Not quite a third, so you get a pass this time, and secondly, approximately half of the people you are referring to are Catholics.

I was referring to the 1/3 of mankind that believe Christ was resurrected from the dead. Period. 100% of Catholics do.
Little doubt the amount is far greater than 1/3 of mankind when we take into account the number that believe it, but know they are not Christian, because they remain unrepentant.
But very revealing for everyone to see, that it is in fact it is you that is denigrating Catholics, even after having accused me of it.

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5^th, 2014 at 11:42pm:

while an EXACTLY OPPOSING 1/4 of mankind must DISbelieve the crucifixion of Christ, as AS AN ARTICLE OF THEIR FAITH in Muhammad alone.

As opposed to all those other large world religions that were formed after Christianity such as

*tumbleweeds*

Stratos wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 10:19am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 5th, 2014 at 11:42pm: while an EXACTLY OPPOSING 1/4 of mankind must DISbelieve the crucifixion of Christ, as AS AN ARTICLE OF THEIR FAITH in Muhammad alone. As opposed to all those other large world religions that were formed after Christianity such as *tumbleweeds*

What other religion has "messengers" and/or scriptures that require adherents specifically to DISbelieve the crucifixion of Christ and thus His shed blood - the whole subject of the Gospel - and specifically to DENY the Son of God, AS ARTICLES OF FAITH?
falseprophetmuhammad.com

Making Islam a specifically ANTI-religion cult, that follows Muhammad alone.
youtube.com/watch?v=ujUOZyrnewE

I wonder how many other religions even command adherents to conquer and subjugate all people to their religion?
falseprophetmuhammad.com/jihad_islamic_terrorism.htm

None, that was my whole point.  Of the large world religions and their scriptures, only Islam was formed after the NT was written

Stratos wrote on Jan 6^th, 2014 at 9:00pm:

None, that was my whole point.  Of the large world religions and their scriptures, only Islam was formed after the NT was written

With Buddha having lived just a few centuries before (6th-4th century BC). (Though I know next to nothing about him, or the religion that sprang up in his wake. That dating was a quick snatch from a Wikipedia article I noticed the other day.)

Stratos wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 5:20pm:

Just wondering if you know Gandalf (or anyone who knows) what is the significance of this?  Is there a particular reason that Mecca being an ancient city is important to a Muslim?

Nothing could be more important to the very basis of Islam. They've been taught to parrot a lie that was created by a bunch of 7th to 10th century AD semi-literate SW Arabian desert dwellers, that Adam built the kaaba, and Abraham rebuilt it. Yet the entirety of Islamic so-called "tradition" was created in the 7th to 10th centuries AD, without reference to any actual historical record that preceded the 5th century AD.

Mecca is important because Muhammad's followers prostrate themselves toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in the Kaaba in Mecca 5 times a day, and pray in the "vain repetitions as the heathen do" in the names of the Arabian pagan's deity "Allah" and his "messenger" Muhammad.

The FIFTH PILLAR of Islam obliges Muhammad's followers to travel to that black stone idol, and kiss it as Muhammad did, or at least point to it on each of the 7 times they circumambulate the Kaaba as the Arabian pagans did before them in Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship. As Muslims and pagan's did, shoulder to shoulder, up until the year before Muhammad's last Hajj:

Sahih Bukhari V2, B26, #689: Narrated Abu Huraira: In the year prior to the last Hajj of the Prophet when Allahs Apostle made Abu Bakr the leader of the pilgrims, the latter (Abu Bakr) sent me in the company of a group of people to make a public announcement: 'No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year, and no naked person is allowed to perform Tawaf of the Kaba.'

The poor pagans got kicked out of their own ritual!

Wikipedia article: "Muslim pilgrims jostle for a chance to kiss the Black Stone; if they are unable to kiss the stone because of the crowds, they can point towards the stone on each circuit with their right hand." "Once people have kissed the stone a guard stands ready to push them away."

Photo caption: "Coveting the Black Stone"

http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/0f00e680.jpg

Muhammed and his immediate predecessors were actually successful in ethnically cleansing the pagans from a large area, not just Mecca. This involved forced mass migrations, slaughter, rape, pillage, oppression, intimidation and every other trick in the book of Islam.

(Of course, the pagans deserved it....)

freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2014 at 7:52pm:

Muhammed and his immediate predecessors were actually successful in ethnically cleansing the pagans from a large area, not just Mecca. This involved forced mass migrations, slaughter, rape, pillage, oppression, intimidation and every other trick in the book of Islam. (Of course, the pagans deserved it....)

But they did far worse to the three Jewish tribes of Medina, for rejecting Muhammad as a false prophet, as they easily confirmed by the scriptures they had followed for over a millennium before Muhammad.
So Muhammad beheaded the innocent, literate, peaceful, faithful, productive Jewish farm boys of the Banu Qurayza and their dads and grandpas, and pressed their little sisters, moms and grandmothers into sexual slavery (some fates are worse than death), while stealing the fruit of their labor of generations.
http://www.brotherpete.com/banu_qurayza_massacre.htm

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 21^st, 2014 at 9:49pm:

So Muhammad beheaded the innocent, literate, peaceful, faithful, productive Jewish farm boys of the Banu Qurayza and their dads and grandpas,

Like the Jews did to the Canaanites?


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 21^st, 2014 at 9:49pm:

and pressed their little sisters, moms and grandmothers into sexual slavery

Well this isn't quite like what God's people did in the OT, they killed a lot of the women.  Except for the virgins, who they abducted and took as their own.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 21^st, 2014 at 9:49pm:

while stealing the fruit of their labor of generations.

What, like the Israelites did to the Canaanites?

Stratos wrote on Jan 21^st, 2014 at 10:05pm:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 21st, 2014 at 9:49pm: So Muhammad beheaded the innocent, literate, peaceful, faithful, productive Jewish farm boys of the Banu Qurayza and their dads and grandpas, Like the Jews did to the Canaanites?

Perhaps in the eyes of those who love Satan and his people, as much as they hate Yahweh and His people.
As already explained to you:
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1382575113/37#37

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 21^st, 2014 at 11:47pm:

Stratos wrote on Jan 21st, 2014 at 10:05pm: Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 21st, 2014 at 9:49pm: So Muhammad beheaded the innocent, literate, peaceful, faithful, productive Jewish farm boys of the Banu Qurayza and their dads and grandpas, Like the Jews did to the Canaanites? Perhaps in the eyes of those who love Satan and his people, as much as they hate Yahweh and His people. As already explained to you: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1382575113/37#37

If Satan stands on the side of those being murdered, while God stands on the side of infanticide and genocide, are you quite sure you are on the right side?

blessings ,

mecca is a black cube ...

http://www.sacredsites.com/middle_east/saudi_arabia/images/the-kaba-02-500.jpg

on the top of saturn is a hexagon

which consequently is a cube ...

http://cube-it.webs.com/Saturn%20Hexagon.jpg

so why do these people worship a black cube ?

http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2011/11/01/1226182/035720-hajj.jpg

lets see if anyone can find the truth here

with forgiveness

namaste

- : ) =

ॐ

Not the there’s anything wrong with it, Light. You worship that which is that within thee.

Different strokes, eh?

Forgiven.

it_is_the_light wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2014 at 12:12am:

blessings , mecca is a black cube ...

Mecca is a town/city. The Kaaba that the Quraish pagan immigrants from Yemen built in the 5th century AD, for Arabian moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship, is the black cube.
http://www.religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/construction.htm

Sahih Muslim Book 007, Number 3078: 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger may peace be upon him) said to me: Had your people not been unbelievers in the recent past (had they not quite recently accepted Islam), I would have demolished the Ka'ba and would have rebuilt it on the foundation (laid) by Ibrahim; for when the Quraish had built the Ka'ba, they reduced its (area), and I would also have built (a door) in the rear.


it_is_the_light wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2014 at 12:12am:

http://www.sacredsites.com/middle_east/saudi_arabia/images/the-kaba-02-500.jpg on the top of saturn is a hexagon which consequently is a cube ... http://cube-it.webs.com/Saturn%20Hexagon.jpg so why do these people worship a black cube ? http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2011/11/01/1226182/035720-hajj.jpg lets see if anyone can find the truth here

That's easy. Muhammad's followers venerate the Kaaba, because the Arabian pagan's venerated it before Muhammad. He adopted, adapted and thinly veneered the pagan's rituals, so he could continue to profit off of Kaaba Inc., like his uncle Abdel did before him.
The pagan's and Muslims even circumambulated the Kaaba  shoulder to shoulder, up until Muhammad's last Hajj:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 26, Number 689: Narrated Abu Huraira: In the year prior to the last Hajj of the Prophet when Allahs Apostle made Abu Bakr the leader of the pilgrims, the latter (Abu Bakr) sent me in the company of a group of people to make a public announcement: 'No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj after this year, and no naked person is allowed to perform Tawaf of the Kaba.'

The poor pagans got kicked out of their own ritual.
http://www.brotherpete.com/hajj___umrah.htm#kaaba


it_is_the_light wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2014 at 12:12am:

with forgiveness namaste - : ) = ॐ

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 6:02pm:

Islamic tradition states that Abraham's concubine Hagar was sent away when she was pregnant with Ishmael. She got lost in the desert and eventually was saved when she discovered (by God's help) the natural spring of zamzam. Abraham then (allegedly) built the Kabah over the spring as a sort of shrine to the miracle and mercy of Allah.

You have offered the same excuse that Wally1 has for ignoring my posts. That they are too long. So please let me ask you a single simple question that you have been avoiding.

To preface, all Muslims have prostrated themselves toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol and Kaaba in Mecca, and are all obliged to travel to it and march around it, as the Arabian pagans did before Muhammad was ever born. It is where the well of zamzam you wrote about is located. For a Muslim to suggest Mecca and the FIFTH PILLAR of Islam is irrelevant or unimportant would be apostasy, and perhaps even blasphemy against Muhammadan Islam.

Now here's the question: Based on what EVIDENCE do you believe your claim that I quoted regarding Hagar?

It is important for you to understand that Abraham's home, and his tomb that Muslims visit, control and continue to desecrate to this day, are located in Hebron - 1200 kilometers across harsh, barren, dry desert wasteland away from the well of zamzam in Mecca - and that Hagar and Ishmael lived over a thousand years before a caravan route was ever established along the Red Sea in Arabia, and even most of a thousand years before the advent of camel transport in Arabia.

On what EVIDENCE do you believe, the scripture-contrary 7th century Muhammadan bunk you are peddling about Hagar, when the scriptures inform us:

Gen 21:14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.

http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/0f137a10.png

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2014 at 10:02pm:

Now here's the question: Based on what EVIDENCE do you believe your claim that I quoted regarding Hagar?

I never said I "believed" it.

I'm pretty sure I explained earlier that the importance is the story, not the literal geographical location of the story. For all I care she found the well in Antarctica - it really doesn't matter.

Sorry, but you are getting all worked up over nothing.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2014 at 11:29am:

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 22nd, 2014 at 10:02pm: Now here's the question: Based on what EVIDENCE do you believe your claim that I quoted regarding Hagar? I never said I "believed" it.

So Muslims prostrate toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol and kaaba five times a day because they believe a lie.
Your denial is like someone who had deceived themselves into believing they were a Christian saying "ya but I don't believe Christ was crucified", thereby rejecting the whole subject of the Gospel and thus rejecting Jesus Christ Himself.


polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2014 at 11:29am:

I'm pretty sure I explained earlier that the importance is the story, not the literal geographical location of the story.

How can something that even you recognize to be a lie, have any importance whatsoever, other than to understand that since it is a lie you should be running from it like a scalded dog?

Your attempt to spiritualize away Islam, to follow a god of your own creation, makes you an Islamic apostate. Don't take my word for it. ASK YOUR IMAM about it.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/ask_your_imam.htm
Yet you remain Islamic enough, to make you an antichrist, according to the holy scriptures of the one true God.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/islam_is_antichrist.htm


polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2014 at 11:29am:

For all I care she found the well in Antarctica - it really doesn't matter.

Nothing could matter more regarding the religion of Islam since you then must simultaneously reject the claim that....


polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2014 at 6:02pm:

Abraham then (allegedly) built the Kabah over the spring as a sort of shrine to the miracle and mercy of Allah.

....as absolutely in fact nothing more than falsely alleged, for the same reason. Thus Mecca and zamzam are a lie. Traveling to the Quraish pagan's black stone idol and kaaba, and walking around it 7 times, is no more of the one true God YHWH - that hates idolatry - than when the Arabian pagans engaged in the ritual, in moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship, before Muhammad was ever born.

Thus you must recognize any Islamic relationship with Abraham is a historical and geographical impossibility. You just rejected so-called "tradition" regarding any of Islam's pre-5th century fake history, and the fifth pillar of Islam, as the provable pile of pure poppycock that it is.

Thus you have stripped away the beard that obscures Islam from being recognized for what it is. Nothing more than a murderous, imperialistic, political military machine, bent on conquest of the world and subjugation of all mankind specifically to DISbelieving the crucifixion of Christ - the whole subject of the Gospel - and denying the Son of God. Bent on making everyone in the world an antichrist.

The only question left is whether you believe it would be God that wants you to conquer and subjugate Jews and Christians to believe the false prophet Muhammad's lies, or whether you believe it would be Satan that would want you to bring imperialistic "slaughter" to advance a lie.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/

Forever is a very long time, my friend:

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/the_beast.htm


polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2014 at 11:29am:

Sorry, but you are getting all worked up over nothing.

I am at peace in the Lord gand, though we perhaps both understand who should be getting worked up. You believe there is a God, and you believe in divine judgment. Yet rather than follow the one true God, whose people have followed Him for 3500 years through all of His prophets and witnesses, as revealed in His 1600 year record to mankind, you follow what even you recognize to be a lie. You follow the false prophet Muhammad alone.

Satan is the father of lies. Thus you follow Satan through Muhammad alone. You follow a violent, imperialistic, murderous, truth censoring, antichrist leader, with a scripture-contrary, history-devoid, archaeology-bankrupt, reality-rejecting, geographically-impossible so-called "tradition" - that masquerades as thousands of years of pre-Muhammad history but was all created and put to the pen in the 7th to 10th centuries AD without reference to any actual historical record that preceded the 5th century AD. You follow Muhammad alone, through a "strong delusion".

2Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/strong_delusion.htm

Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2014 at 8:05pm:

You prostrate toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol five times a day, about something you don't believe in. That would be like someone who had deceived themselves into believing they were a Christian saying "Christ was never crucified" and thus rejecting the whole subject of the Gospel

This is false.  Muslims do not worship the stone.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2014 at 8:05pm:

The importance to you. This makes you an Islamic apostate.

What is it with people saying you aren't a Muslim Gandalf?  It seriously makes me think half of the Islamic critics here WANT you to be an extremist paradoxically.


Pete Waldo wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2014 at 8:05pm:

Thus you just tacitly rejected Islamic relationship with Abraham as a historical and geographical impossibility. You just rejected pre-5th century Islamic so-called "tradition" and the fifth pillar of Islam as the proven pile of poppycock that it is.

What, so you have to literally take every little thing in a holy scripture in order to be a believer?  Next you will be arguing for a six day creation  ::)  How about Noah's flood?  i can see a mountain from my house, how about you pray it away by tomorrow?

You need to think when it comes to these things, or else you will end up a genocide advocating, infanticide justifying religious type...

...and we wouldn't want that now would we?

You are under a deep delusion Pete.

Islam is centred on la ilaha ilalah (there is no God but God) - not some physical stone in one particular geographical location.

You clearly have a deep misunderstanding of whats important in religion and spirituality in general.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2014 at 8:46pm:

You are under a deep delusion Pete. Islam is centred on la ilaha ilalah (there is no God but God) ......

There was a monotheistic sect of Sabian moon god worshipers too. Does monotheism, make their monotheistic moon god worship any more true, purely for the sake of monotheism?
So it isn't an issue of one God, but WHICH God.
Muslims must reject the ONE TRUE God of the scriptures of Jews and Christians YHWH (Yahweh), to follow Muhammad, and his Muhammad-serving alter-ego "Allah", alone. Muslims follow Muhammad through adopted and adapted Arabian pagan moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worship rituals.
http://www.brotherpete.com/hajj_umrah.htm


polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2014 at 8:46pm:

...... - not some physical stone in one particular geographical location.

But as you well know, my post discussed much more than the Quraish pagan's black stone idol. It also discussed the Quraish pagan's Kaaba, and the fact that you know it is a lie, and thus everything Islam teaches about Abraham, Hagar or Ishmael having anything to do with Mecca is a lie. Thus you follow the father of lies. He is the la ilaha ilalah that you follow. Satan. The prince of the power of the air. The legal owner of the kingdoms of this world.


polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2014 at 8:46pm:

You clearly have a deep misunderstanding of whats important in religion and spirituality in general.

I have a firm understanding my friend, and it is based on the 1600 year record of the one true God YHWH to mankind, through all of His prophets and witnesses, that His people have followed through two covenants over 3500 years. Those scriptures inform in no uncertain terms, that Islam is ANTICHRIST.
http://www.falseprophetmuhammad.com/islam_is_antichrist.htm

It is the spirit of antichrist, that fills the false prophet Muhammad's followers, through the father of lies. And even you recognize the connection to Abraham and Mecca as being a lie.
Nor can you reject the whole subject of the Gospel and pretend to believe in Jesus.
You follow Muhammad alone, through his heavily abrogated, STAND-ALONE, 23 year, 7th century record.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/abrogation_quran.htm

You can't have it both ways, my friend. You can't reject YHWH and follow Him too.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

2John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

1John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
                           
1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

1John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

So gandalf, are you an antichrist, according to the scriptures?
                     
2Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.   

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.