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http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl Member Run Boards >> Islam >> This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims. http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1387333750 Message started by Herbert on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 12:29pm

Title: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Herbert on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 12:29pm

Take note, Gandalf! Be careful with describing yourself as a 'moderate' Muslim if you should happen to go for a holiday in a Muslim country.

Ahmadiyya community, seen as 'non-Muslims' by the Muslim community.

Quote:

Ahmadiyya adherents believe that God sent Ghulam Ahmad, in the likeness of Jesus, to end religious wars, condemn bloodshed and reinstitute morality, justice and peace. They believe that he divested Islam of fanatical beliefs and practices by championing what is in their view, Islam’s true and essential teachings as practised by the Prophet Muhammad.

It's a non-violent version of Islam which every other Muslim sect rejects.

Anyway, here's poor ex-Brit ...

Quote:

A 72-year-old British doctor has been imprisoned in Pakistan for ‘posing as a Muslim’ after two men pretending to be patients recorded him reading the Koran.

Masood Ahmad, a member of the Ahmadiyya community, was arrested in Lahore last month after the two men had 'dragged him out by the neck' and beaten him.

Mr Ahmadi spent a majority of his life working as a doctor in London, but returned to Pakistan in 1982 to open a pharmacy.

According to Pakistani law, Ahmadis are non-Muslims and can be jailed for three years for 'posing as a Muslim' or 'outraging Muslims' feelings'.

It's a glorious religion, Islam. So touchy-feely, tolerant, caring-and-sharing.

What straight-thinking Muslim wants Islam without violence?

Those peace-loving Ahmadiyya 'Muslims' deserve violence to teach them not to stray from the True Path of Islam.

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Stratos on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 12:51pm

Not condoning persecution obviously, but the main reason Muslims have issue with the Ahmadiyya is not because of their non-violence, it is because they believe another prophet, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.

It sounds a bit like the Mormons really, people who revere a later prophet who is rejected by most of the rest of the believers.

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Sprintcyclist on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 12:51pm

would you give a link please ?

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Baronvonrort on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 1:37pm

Stratos wrote on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 12:51pm:

Not condoning persecution obviously, but the main reason Muslims have issue with the Ahmadiyya is not because of their non-violence, it is because they believe another prophet, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.

The ahamdi cannot call themselves muslims where they originated from in Pakistan, the Pakistan penal code 295 says they can be jailed for outraging the religious beliefs of a muslim.

Abdus Salam won the first Nobel prize for a muslim in science, since they discovered he was an ahmadi they have removed the word "muslim" from his grave.
Abdus worked on Pakistan's nuclear project.

Islam says Mohammad was the final prophet from god, where do the ahmadi claim Mohammad was not the final prophet from god can you cite this or are you just repeating lies from muslims?

The Ahmadi are OK with separation of mosque and state which is considered heretical, they also dont believe in the obligation for jihad.

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Baronvonrort on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 1:41pm

The ahmadi are persecuted by mainstream Islam.

https://www.persecutionofahmadis.org

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Herbert on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 1:49pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 12:51pm:

would you give a link please ?

link

Quote:

The Ahmadi are also targets outside Pakistan.

In Indonesia, a gruesome YouTube video recorded a mass lynching in 2011 as police looked on.

Indonesia.

As police looked on.

Wasn't it gandalf trying to sell us the fiction that all that violence stuff is over there in the Middle East?

As a religion, Islam is damn-near satanic.

Beatings, burnings, beheadings, stonings, Death Fatwas, Sharia law, honor killings, wholesale rape, coaching children for sex, bombings, acid-in-the-face ...

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by freediver on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 6:26pm

This Ahmadiyya stuff sounds a bit like what Gandalf has been preaching.

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Herbert on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 7:48pm

freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 6:26pm:

This Ahmadiyya stuff sounds a bit like what Gandalf has been preaching.

I hope so.

It's a lot more tame than mainstream Islam.

link

Insha'Allah, gandalf will convert to Ahmadiyya if he already hasn't. 8-)

We've just got to make sure Indonesia's version of Rage Boy doesn't catch up with gandalf after he converts.

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Baronvonrort on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 11:39am

freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 6:26pm:

This Ahmadiyya stuff sounds a bit like what Gandalf has been preaching.

Gandalf has cited Ahmadi articles and tried to pass them off as mainstream.

Why are muslims silent on the persecution of the Ahmadis?

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Yadda on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 12:06pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 11:39am:

freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 6:26pm:

This Ahmadiyya stuff sounds a bit like what Gandalf has been preaching.

Gandalf has cited Ahmadi articles and tried to pass them off as mainstream.

Why are muslims silent on the persecution of the Ahmadis?

~~Why are muslims silent on the persecution of the Ahmadis?~~

1/ Why are moslems intentionally misrepresenting the nature of ISLAM, to those who are not moslems ?

2/ Why are moslems misrepresenting ISLAM, AND, projecting that very accusation, onto those who are not moslems ?

Google;
Dispatches - Undercover Mosque, UK

WATCH THESE THREE YOUTUBE VIDEOS;

#1,
Mohamed Morsi-
"The Koran is our constitution"
"The Prophet Muhammad is our leader"
"Jihad is our path"
"AND DEATH FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH IS OUR MOST LOFTY ASPIRATION!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8NtiUMOFFg

#2,
Please watch this YT... goto 4m 30s, alternatively, watch this YT through from the beginning.
Muslims being deceptive Islam EX-Muslims
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZx8cNSC9O0

#3,
Please watch this YT...
ISLAM - THREE THINGS YOU SHOULD KNOW!!!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OzxiHfWvBGw

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by freediver on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 12:12pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 11:39am:

freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 6:26pm:

This Ahmadiyya stuff sounds a bit like what Gandalf has been preaching.

Gandalf has cited Ahmadi articles and tried to pass them off as mainstream.

Why are muslims silent on the persecution of the Ahmadis?

Is this true Gandalf?

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Grendel on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 2:53pm

There are no such things as MODERATE Muslims... there are Muslims and apostates... or Muslims and non-believers.

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by gandalf on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 9:35pm

freediver wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 12:12pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 11:39am:

freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 6:26pm:

This Ahmadiyya stuff sounds a bit like what Gandalf has been preaching.

Gandalf has cited Ahmadi articles and tried to pass them off as mainstream.

Why are muslims silent on the persecution of the Ahmadis?

Is this true Gandalf?

As I recall I quoted what was a very mainstream islamic view - which just happened to be written by an ahmadi. Something about no prescribed punishment for blasphemy I think. But perhaps Baron can quote me, I can't find it.

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Sparky on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 9:42pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 9:35pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 12:12pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 11:39am:

freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 6:26pm:

This Ahmadiyya stuff sounds a bit like what Gandalf has been preaching.

Gandalf has cited Ahmadi articles and tried to pass them off as mainstream.

Why are muslims silent on the persecution of the Ahmadis?

Is this true Gandalf?

You've got to admit Gandalf, Islam is a pretty mucked up religion. You can't deny that. They are all stupid but Islam takes the cake.

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by gandalf on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 9:55pm

Sparky wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 9:42pm:

You've got to admit Gandalf, Islam is a pretty mucked up religion. You can't deny that. They are all stupid but Islam takes the cake.

[smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]

yup yup yup uhuh uhuh

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Brian Ross on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 9:56pm

Sparky wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 9:42pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 9:35pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 12:12pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 11:39am:

freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 6:26pm:

This Ahmadiyya stuff sounds a bit like what Gandalf has been preaching.

Gandalf has cited Ahmadi articles and tried to pass them off as mainstream.

Why are muslims silent on the persecution of the Ahmadis?

Is this true Gandalf?

You've got to admit Gandalf, Islam is a pretty mucked up religion. You can't deny that. They are all stupid but Islam takes the cake.

Any worse than Mormanism or Seventh Day Adventism? Hinduism has rather interesting beliefs as does Christianity and Buddhism (although, strictly speaking Buddhism in it's original form isn't a religion but a philosophy). As you note, all religions can be "stupid". It's the problem with belief trumping rationalism. ::)

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Sparky on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 9:59pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 9:56pm:

Sparky wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 9:42pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 9:35pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 12:12pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 11:39am:

freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2013 at 6:26pm:

This Ahmadiyya stuff sounds a bit like what Gandalf has been preaching.

Gandalf has cited Ahmadi articles and tried to pass them off as mainstream.

Why are muslims silent on the persecution of the Ahmadis?

Is this true Gandalf?

You've got to admit Gandalf, Islam is a pretty mucked up religion. You can't deny that. They are all stupid but Islam takes the cake.

Mormons aren't blowing people up. Are they?

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Brian Ross on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 10:06pm

Sparky wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 9:59pm:

Mormons aren't blowing people up. Are they?

Funny, I thought you were talking about beliefs and how unusual they were, not how some adherents decided to follow them. Moving the goalposts? How unusual?

So you don't think the belief that Mormoms will be reincarnated as gods/goddesses in Heaven rather strange (and incompatible with the claim that Mormonism is a version of Christianity)? What about polygamy? Or that the Joseph Smith, founder of the religion was sent messages from "god", which no one else saw/heard/understood rather strange? ::)

Personally, I suspect most of the founders of religions may well have suffered from mental illness. What do you think?

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by gandalf on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 10:57pm

Grendel wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 10:31pm:

So gandalf... I'm guessing you don't draw the line at this stuff so it will be ok for me to make such statements in future? oh and whatever happened about that rule on multiple emoticons? Roll Eyes
You gonna make rules then lets be fair in the observance of them then eh.

Deleted.

Like I said, HB is a serial offender and I am still catching up.

Please PM me in future, I don't want this forum spammed with kindergarten dobbing.

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by freediver on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 9:00am

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 10:06pm:

Sparky wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 9:59pm:

Mormons aren't blowing people up. Are they?

I don't see anyone criticising the spiritual aspects of Islam or (other than you) the spiritual aspects of other religions. The entire debate on this board seems to have gone right over your head.

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Grendel on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 9:08am

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 10:06pm:

Sparky wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 9:59pm:

Mormons aren't blowing people up. Are they?

I had no idea you'd founded a religion bwian... I thought you just led the Ross Bwaintwust cult.

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Brian Ross on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 5:12pm

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 9:00am:

I don't see anyone criticising the spiritual aspects of Islam or (other than you) the spiritual aspects of other religions. The entire debate on this board seems to have gone right over your head.

And that rather suggests what, FD? Perhaps your problem is, as I've always maintained the narrowness of your focus, exclusively on Muslims? You blind yourself to the diversity around you simply because you want to believe what Muslims do is unique. Down that road lies bigotry. ::)

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Datalife on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 5:51pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 5:12pm:

Perhaps your problem is, as I've always maintained the narrowness of your focus, exclusively on Muslims? You blind yourself to the diversity around you simply because you want to believe what Muslims do is unique. Down that road lies bigotry. ::)

LOL, says the bloke who refuses to criticise the actions of any foreign State, or any religions he is not a member of.

What lies down that road? 8-) 8-)

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Soren on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 6:02pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 10:06pm:

Sparky wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 9:59pm:

Mormons aren't blowing people up. Are they?

I think you suffer from mental illness.
What do you think?

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Soren on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 6:03pm

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 9:00am:

I don't see anyone criticising the spiritual aspects of Islam or (other than you) the spiritual aspects of other religions. The entire debate on this board seems to have gone right over your head.

Just so.

Talk about a nutshell.

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by freediver on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 6:29pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 5:12pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 9:00am:

I don't see anyone criticising the spiritual aspects of Islam or (other than you) the spiritual aspects of other religions. The entire debate on this board seems to have gone right over your head.

It suggests that even after all this time, you still don't know what we are talking about, or are trying very hard to remain ignorant or ignore the subject. It's like you are part of a different conversation. Perhaps you are posting on the wrong website?

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Brian Ross on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 6:32pm

Soren wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 6:02pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 10:06pm:

Sparky wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 9:59pm:

Mormons aren't blowing people up. Are they?

I think you suffer from mental illness.
What do you think?

No, I have proof I don't, do you? ::)

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Soren on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 6:36pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 6:32pm:

Soren wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 6:02pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 10:06pm:

Sparky wrote on Dec 20^th, 2013 at 9:59pm:

Mormons aren't blowing people up. Are they?

I think you suffer from mental illness.
What do you think?

No, I have proof I don't, do you? ::)

I have proof you do.

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Brian Ross on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 6:37pm

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 6:29pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 5:12pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 9:00am:

I don't see anyone criticising the spiritual aspects of Islam or (other than you) the spiritual aspects of other religions. The entire debate on this board seems to have gone right over your head.

Justifying your bigotry? I suppose any excuse will do. I am aware that you have little direct experience with Muslims. Only some who has never engaged with them would spout the stuff you do, FD. ::)

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Datalife on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 6:46pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 6:32pm:

No, I have proof I don't, do you? ::)

LOL, classic, you have proof you don't suffer mental illness? What would that consist of? Naaah seriously, I am keen to know your "proof".

I look forward to some hilarity at your expense cos whatever you present it is going to be funny.

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Datalife on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 6:50pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 6:37pm:

Only some who has never engaged with them would spout the stuff you do, FD. ::)

Brian, your personal anecdotes that you know a muslim does not invalidate any points in a debate, someone who pretends to be an academic on the interwebds will do nothing for their credibility if they trot that out as a counterpoint.

But not as funny as you have proof you don't suffer mental illness. Is that a letter from your doctor? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Too funny, I am seriously laughing here. No joke.

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by freediver on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 7:04pm

This is from the guy who "knows" what Muslims think, without the need to ask (in fact he refuses to, just in case) because his servants did not chop his head off in his sleep when he was in Malaysia? Brian you may not have noticed, but the majority of Malaysians want to start chopping peoples head's off for blasphemy, and stoning disobedient child brides to death. These are the things you find out when you stop to ask people what they think, rather than telling them what they think.

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Brian Ross on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 7:10pm

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 7:04pm:

Dunno where you're getting this bullshit about Malaysia and servants from, FD? ::)

As usual, you make the classic mistake when attempting to apply statistics to real life situations. ::)

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by freediver on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 7:31pm

I'm surprised you missed this Brian. Or maybe you blocked it out every time you read it.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by gandalf on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 7:52pm

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 7:04pm:

Brian you may not have noticed, but the majority of Malaysians want to start chopping peoples head's off for blasphemy, and stoning disobedient child brides to death. These are the things you find out when you stop to ask people what they think

What Malaysians were asked:

Quote:

Q92d. Do you favor or oppose the following: stoning
people who commit adultery?

52% in favour (of 87% who support sharia as law of the land)

First point - it is not a majority of Malaysians (52% of 87% - and actually only Malay Malaysians, not "Malaysians" as in Malays + Chinese + Indians).

Second point - child brides are unheard of, and illegal in Malaysia, - the legal age of marriage for a bride is 21, or 18 with parental consent, or 16 with both parental consent and a court order (or in other words, even stricter than Australia).

Third point - I'm sure you know this already, but I'll humour you anyway, the questioner is not asking "do you support stoning disobedient child-brides to death". You may argue it is the same thing (minus the child bride of course), but you and I know that responses to a survey are highly dependent on the way the question is asked. If they were asked such a question, the responses would obviously be drastically different. Its a bit like if a survey revealed that a majority of Americans support drone strikes in Pakistan, even if it results in some collateral civilian deaths - I could stand up and boldly declare "look, Americans say they support their government slaughtering civilians with absolutely no transparency or accountability!" - and you would be right to say "thats just dumb".

Long story short, Malays are not the barbarians you are making them out to be.

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Herbert on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 7:54pm

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 6:29pm:

Perhaps you are posting on the wrong website?

Ha!

Brian's Home Page should be this forum site that's a rat's nest of self-destructive neurotics.

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by freediver on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 7:59pm

Quote:

First point - it is not a majority of Malaysians (52% of 87% - and actually only Malay Malaysians, not "Malaysians" as in Malays + Chinese + Indians).

Great. Only the Muslims want to stone people to death. Tell us something we didn't know.

Quote:

Second point - child brides are unheard of, and illegal in Malaysia, - the legal age of marriage for a bride is 21, or 18 with parental consent, or 16 with both parental consent and a court order (or in other words, even stricter than Australia).

Did you miss the bit where the majority want to stone people to death for adultery?

Quote:

Long story short, Malays are not the barbarians you are making them out to be.

You got me there Gandalf. Only the Muslims are. I should have been more specific. Next time Brian starts whinging that I am being unfair to Muslims I will be more careful not to tar decent non-Muslims with the same brush.

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Brian Ross on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 8:37pm

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 7:31pm:

I'm surprised you missed this Brian. Or maybe you blocked it out every time you read it.

Of course I read it. ::)

I am unsure thought what it has to do with this or what this has to do with me?

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 7:04pm:

The majority of Malaysians think no such thing, FD. As Gandalf has pointed out, the majority of Muslim Malaysians may but the questions were not asked of the total Malaysian population (of all religions).

And the point I've been making all along is that you do not ask Muslims their opinions (nor believe them when you are presented with them), unless those opinions reinforce your views on Muslims, FD. Get out there and mix with Australian Muslims. Talk to them honestly. You might be surprised what you find out! ::)

Nor have I ever claimed to have lived in Malaysia or that I had servants whilst not living in Malaysia. ::)

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by gandalf on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 9:50pm

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 7:59pm:

Great. Only the Muslims want to stone people to death. Tell us something we didn't know.

::) less than 50% of muslim Malaysians (Malays), as I explained. Is this reading comprehension problem of yours chronic?

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 7:59pm:

Did you miss the bit where the majority want to stone people to death for adultery?

It is not the majority, as already explained.

Secondly, you just said that Malaysian muslims want to stone disobedient child brides. I just explained to you, in very plain English, that child brides don't exist in Malaysia.

And did you read anything I just wrote? Surveys show "support" for a lots of barbaric practices - like drone strikes, and the war in Iraq. You can also just as easily obtain support for the opposite, or at least a dramatic lessening of support, just by changing the wording of the question. As already pointed out, child brides are illegal under Malaysian law, and Malaysians are culturally averse to the concept. So if you changed the question from "Do you favor or oppose the following: stoning people who commit adultery?" to "do you favor or oppose stoning young girls who are forced into an arranged marriage with an older, abusive husband - after they have an extra-marital relationship with another man?" - it doesn't take Einstein to work out that the "support" for stoning would fall dramatically. Just as "support" for drone strikes would undoubtedly fall if the questioner goes into graphic (and truthful) detail about the devastating effect it has on innocent civilians.

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 7:59pm:

Yup, well done - thats two idiotic statements made as a result of a very stupid and careless comprehension mistake.

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by freediver on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 10:44pm

Quote:

I am unsure thought what it has to do with this or what this has to do with me?

You don't think the opinions of Muslims are relevant?

I thought you trotted out a story about visiting Malaysia and not getting your head chopped off by your servant. Maybe it was one of the other apologists.

Quote:

What question? Is this all about Malaysia, or is it about Islam?

Quote:

And the point I've been making all along is that you do not ask Muslims their opinions (nor believe them when you are presented with them), unless those opinions reinforce your views on Muslims, FD. Get out there and mix with Australian Muslims. Talk to them honestly. You might be surprised what you find out!

That is exactly what I have been doing Brian. You on the other hand bend over backwards to avoid asking Muslims what they think.

Quote:

It is not the majority, as already explained.

Your maths is wrong. Or you are just using the wrong numbers. Even if you take into account all the Muslims who reject Shariah law in principle, the majority still want stoning. Islam's gift to these people was to keep their mentality stuck in 7th century Arab tribalism.

Quote:

Secondly, you just said that Malaysian muslims want to stone disobedient child brides. I just explained to you, in very plain English, that child brides don't exist in Malaysia.

All I said was that you are missing the point - they want to stone adulterers to death. This is perhaps the most barbaric of all the mind boggling barbarity that Islam prescribes.

Quote:

And did you read anything I just wrote? Surveys show "support" for a lots of barbaric practices - like drone strikes, and the war in Iraq. You can also just as easily obtain support for the opposite, or at least a dramatic lessening of support, just by changing the wording of the question.

Do you have any evidence of this? It doesn't sound like Pew to me, nor does the presentation look like spin.

Quote:

As already pointed out, child brides are illegal under Malaysian law, and Malaysians are culturally averse to the concept. So if you changed the question from "Do you favor or oppose the following: stoning people who commit adultery?" to "do you favor or oppose stoning young girls who are forced into an arranged marriage with an older, abusive husband - after they have an extra-marital relationship with another man?" - it doesn't take Einstein to work out that the "support" for stoning would fall dramatically.

You still haven't figured out why people object to this whole stoning business have you?

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Brian Ross on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 11:05pm

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 10:44pm:

Quote:

I am unsure thought what it has to do with this or what this has to do with me?

You don't think the opinions of Muslims are relevant?

Erecting a strawman, Freediver? ::)

Quote:

I thought you trotted out a story about visiting Malaysia and not getting your head chopped off by your servant. Maybe it was one of the other apologists.

No, I have never claimed to have lived in Malaysia which is what you suggested. I have visited Malaysia several times and survived to live and tell the tale obviously, which rather does destroy you claim that there is a mad Muslim head chopper lurking around every corner, now doesn't it, FD? ::)

Quote:

[quote]The majority of Malaysians think no such thing, FD. As Gandalf has pointed out, the majority of Muslim Malaysians may but the questions were not asked of the total Malaysian population (of all religions).

What question? Is this all about Malaysia, or is it about Islam?
[/quote]

Moving the goalposts? How unsurprising. YOU introduced the topic of Malaysian attitudes, not me. ::)

Quote:

[quote]And the point I've been making all along is that you do not ask Muslims their opinions (nor believe them when you are presented with them), unless those opinions reinforce your views on Muslims, FD. Get out there and mix with Australian Muslims. Talk to them honestly. You might be surprised what you find out!

That is exactly what I have been doing Brian. You on the other hand bend over backwards to avoid asking Muslims what they think.
[/quote]

Wrong. I live and work with Muslim Australians every day. You don't think we discuss issues? Their views are very different to what you claim they are. Funny that. ::)

Quote:

[quote]It is not the majority, as already explained.

[quote]Secondly, you just said that Malaysian muslims want to stone disobedient child brides. I just explained to you, in very plain English, that child brides don't exist in Malaysia.

All I said was that you are missing the point - they want to stone adulterers to death. This is perhaps the most barbaric of all the mind boggling barbarity that Islam prescribes.

Quote:

Do you have any evidence of this? It doesn't sound like Pew to me, nor does the presentation look like spin.

Quote:

You still haven't figured out why people object to this whole stoning business have you?[/quote][/quote]

Why are you attributing quotes to me which I did not make, FD? ::)

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by freediver on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 11:10pm

Quote:

You got me there. I always used to say that if you got off the plane in Malaysia your head would not make it back on. I was so embarrassed when you proved me wrong.

Quote:

Moving the goalposts? How unsurprising. YOU introduced the topic of Malaysian attitudes, not me.

Well, is it about Malaysia or about Islam? What is this big question you think needs to be answered?

Quote:

Wrong. I live and work with Muslim Australians every day. You don't think we discuss issues?

Got a reading comprehension problem, FD? Goes with your thatching, I suppose.

Explain it to me then.

Quote:

Why are you attributing quotes to me which I did not make, FD?

I did not attribute them to you.

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Brian Ross on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 11:18pm

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 11:10pm:

Quote:

You got me there. I always used to say that if you got off the plane in Malaysia your head would not make it back on. I was so embarrassed when you proved me wrong.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, FD. ::)

Quote:

[quote]Moving the goalposts? How unsurprising. YOU introduced the topic of Malaysian attitudes, not me.

Well, is it about Malaysia or about Islam? What is this big question you think needs to be answered?
[/quote]

I will remind you again, YOU introduced the topic of Malaysian attitudes, not me. So, make your mind up, either stick to that topic or announce you're moving on. ::)

Quote:

[quote]Wrong. I live and work with Muslim Australians every day. You don't think we discuss issues?

I think you do your best to avoid it. If you are afraid to ask a Muslim about Islam from the safety of an itnernet forum, I doubt you would do it in real life. Most people consider it unprofessional to discuss religion and politics at work.
[/quote]

I am not afraid to ask a Muslim about anything. I have had quite animated discussions with my Muslim neighbour and fellow workers and students over the years, FD. As usual, you deliberately misconstrue my comments. How unsurprising. ::)

Quote:

[quote]Got a reading comprehension problem, FD? Goes with your thatching, I suppose.

Explain it to me then.
[/quote]

I have. Why is it necessary again? ::)

Quote:

[quote]Why are you attributing quotes to me which I did not make, FD?

I did not attribute them to you.[/quote]

They were continued on from my quotes seemlessly. Why do that unless you were misattributing them to me? ::)

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Datalife on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 11:24pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 11:05pm:

Wrong. I live and work with Muslim Australians every day. You don't think we discuss issues? Their views are very different to what you claim they are. Funny that. ::)

A Brain specialty, debate by anecdote, no evidence required, just stories. Brian the range of people you know and jobs you have held over the years has been astonishing, and they all support your claims.

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 11:05pm:

Do you have any evidence of this?

Will an evidence free anecdote suffice? ;D ;D

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by freediver on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 11:24pm

Quote:

I am not afraid to ask a Muslim about anything. I have had quite animated discussions with my Muslim neighbour and fellow workers and students over the years, FD. As usual, you deliberately misconstrue my comments. How unsurprising.

I have seen you interact with Muslims on here. You are afraid to ask them anything even resembling a difficult question, and are eager to accept whatever deflection they offer. Your Malaysia story is another demonstration of your eagerness to assume the best from Muslims but not actually ask them, to the extent that you reject the evidence off-hand when someone does go to the effort of asking.

Quote:

I have. Why is it necessary again?

Gandalf has. He got it wrong. I doubt you even know what we are talking about.

Quote:

They were continued on from my quotes seemlessly. Why do that unless you were misattributing them to me?

I credited you with enough sense to figure which were your own posts.

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Datalife on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 11:34pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 11:18pm:

They were continued on from my quotes seemlessly. Why do that unless you were misattributing them to me? ::)

For someone so quick on the trigger to roll eyes at spelling errors in others and question education levels, you need to sort your own poo first Brian.

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by gandalf on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 11:39pm

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 10:44pm:

Your maths is wrong. Or you are just using the wrong numbers. Even if you take into account all the Muslims who reject Shariah law in principle, the majority still want stoning.

I stand corrected - it works out to about 52% support amongst Malaysian muslims. Just barely a majority. But it is certainly not 52% of Malaysians, comprising the entire muslim population as you originally thought.

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 10:44pm:

All I said was that you are missing the point - they want to stone adulterers to death.

No thats not all you said. If it was, then I would have no issue. I also have a problem with such high numbers supporting this. But then you had to blunder in with your arse-clown hat and hysterically claim "ooh they want to stone disobedient child brides" - oblivious to the fact that child brides don't exist in Malaysia - because they are outlawed.

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 10:44pm:

Do you have any evidence of this? It doesn't sound like Pew to me, nor does the presentation look like spin.

Did I say it was spin? I even gave you the exact question that was used. I'm merely pointing out that attitudes can change markedly by changing a few words in the question. This is just basic surveys-101. Thus I don't call people barbaric, or "little Hitler's" if they offer ill-considered support for certain barbaric practices - whether it be stoning or drone strikes.

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 10:44pm:

You still haven't figured out why people object to this whole stoning business have you?

I object to it, so I think I have a pretty good idea.

Have you worked out why some people would take offense to seeing people labelled "little Hitler's" for supporting certain capital punishments yet?

Title: Re: This is what happens to 'moderate' Muslims.
Post by Brian Ross on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 11:54pm

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2013 at 11:24pm:

Quote:

I have seen you interact with Muslims on here.

Really? ::)

Quote:

You are afraid to ask them anything even resembling a difficult question, and are eager to accept whatever deflection they offer.

I am? And on what evidence do you base that claim?

You, OTOH are unwilling to accept any explanation from any Muslim which does not reinforce your negative stereotyping of them in some way. I have yet to see you change a single attitude despite being proved wrong on so many occasions by either a Muslim or a sympathiser. Why is that, FD?

Quote:

Your Malaysia story is another demonstration of your eagerness to assume the best from Muslims but not actually ask them, to the extent that you reject the evidence off-hand when someone does go to the effort of asking.

FD, I have rejected nothing. I have rather placed it into context. That, that context shows that your misuse of statistics is wrong seems to annoy you for some reason. Ah, if only the world would behave the way you believe it should, hey? ::)

Quote:

[quote]I have. Why is it necessary again?

Gandalf has. He got it wrong. I doubt you even know what we are talking about.
[/quote]

Possibly, as you've moved the goalposts so often I'd be surprised if you even knew what was being discussed. ::)

Quote:

[quote]They were continued on from my quotes seemlessly. Why do that unless you were misattributing them to me?

I credited you with enough sense to figure which were your own posts.[/quote]

Immaterial. Please do not do that in future.