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Member Run Boards >> Environment >> Nuclear prices itself out of market http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1383297782 Message started by # on Nov 1st, 2013 at 7:23pm |
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Title: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by # on Nov 1st, 2013 at 7:23pm By Giles Parkinson on 1 November 2013 The extent to which nuclear is being priced out of electricity markets has finally been revealed by the pricing mechanism unveiled by the British government in the deal to subsidise the Hinkley C nuclear. The UK government will pay £92.5 for each megawatt hour produced from hinkley ($A154/MWh), around double the prevailing market price. This is after the UK supplied a loan guarantee for 65 per cent of the estimated $24 billion capital cost. The “strike price” – a fancy name for a feed in tariff – also has an escalator to take into account the impact of inflation, so the cost will rise in coming years. So how does this compare with rival clean energy technologies? Pretty badly as it turns out. This graph below, published by Craig Morris in Renewable Energy World reveals that the rates that will be offered for new nuclear from 2023 in the UK are far above what solar and wind currently cost. And, as Morris points out, the rates for solar and wind will go down by then, not up! Even offshore wind is getting £95/MWh from 2018 in the UK, but only for 15 years and without any loan guarantees. This second graph below is even more interesting. It takes into account all the expensive PV that was installed with really high feed in tariffs at the start of Germany’s energy transition before the price of solar fell dramatically. From 2023, when the Hinkley reactor is due to be switched on, nuclear at this price still fairs poorly, and as the cost of those tariffs continue to decline, the cost of nuclear will continue to rise. It’s probably as good an illustration as any as to why Germany are not interested in new nuclear power station, and few countries are. |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by muso on Nov 1st, 2013 at 8:28pm
New nuclear plants are becoming difficult to justify anywhere.
The danger is that long established nuclear power stations run quite cheaply and safely, with very little greenhouse gas emissions. Replacing these with fossil fuel generated electricity is a step backwards. |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Vuk11 on Nov 1st, 2013 at 8:45pm
How hard is it to shut down nuclear plants if in future there was a transition to something (more) renewable and efficient? I imagine that's an issue?
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by muso on Nov 1st, 2013 at 9:10pm Vuk11 wrote on Nov 1st, 2013 at 8:45pm:
The longer they run for, the cheaper they become. They factor in the design lifetime when deciding whether its justified to build them. |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 1st, 2013 at 9:23pm
Nuclear power economics was over taken by solar thermal efficiency costs in the year 2010.
In reality nuclear power is totally off the spectrum with respect to capital and power generation costs. As we may all know, no nuclear power plant in the world today (over 500 plants world wide) can be insured for public liability and compensation in the event of a nuclear disaster. No nuclear power plan has been built solely by the private sector or funded purely by stock market floats. They always receive state tax payer funding and guarantees. And of course nobody talks about the costs for nuclear waste storage and/or treatment, plant decommissioning and site remediation costs. Shhhhhhhhhhh...... image_166.jpg (59 KB | 38
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Deathridesahorse on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 2:00am Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 1st, 2013 at 9:23pm:
Ultimately this can't be true: solar thermal needs weeks of storage to even be considered viable and w/out the tax payer dollar it will always remain hamstrung! SAD BUT TRUE!! NO SAYING IT CAN'T HAPPEN but w/out society giving it taxpayer dollars for r&d it's bunkified :'( |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 7:32am muso wrote on Nov 1st, 2013 at 9:10pm:
...and the more dangerous and lethal they become ...the more brittle their reactor pressure vessels and containments become due to neutron bombardment and other factors such as corrosion and fatigue... the more waste they generate.... |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 7:37am BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 2:00am:
Solar Thermal is already a base load continuous power generating source, that operates on a large scale.. Almost all the tax payer dollars go to the fossil fuel sectors and the deranged nuclear industry. And that doesn't include the funding of OIL wars and military invasions and huge outlays to protect the corporatisation of energy and mining resources throughout the globe THe table is rigged. The dice are loaded The psycho-sociopathic corporate fascists are in charge - they have escaped from the Asylum and are masquerading as Political puppetry leaders and corporate CEOs. |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Ajax on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 11:26am muso wrote on Nov 1st, 2013 at 8:28pm:
Have you forgotten about Chernobyl.....??? Or Fukushima. The very foundation of western civilisation is built on fossil fuels.........!!!!! |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 12:12pm Ajax wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 11:26am:
A single response applicable to both comments monkey_arse1_002.jpg (145 KB | 41
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by # on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 2:35pm muso wrote on Nov 1st, 2013 at 8:28pm:
Given developments in renewables and the surprising advances in storage, is that likely to be necessary - or even cost-effective? The Germans seem to have done pretty well, even with the current state of technology. |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 3:19pm # wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 2:35pm:
...and the Germans don't have ideal solar radiation bathing their landscapes The Germans look at Australia and must laugh their heads off as to how stupid we appear to the rest of the planet. |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by muso on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 7:10pm # wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 2:35pm:
Yes, and I guess Solar installations are not affected by jellyfish either. http://news.sp@m/animals/jellyfish-shut-down-swedish-nuclear-reactor-131002.htm Quote:
Jellyfish are becoming more of a hazard worldwide. |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Deathridesahorse on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:56am # wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 2:35pm:
WHAT ADVANCES in storage ::)? |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 7:09am BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:56am:
The large scale Spanish solar thermal plant can store enough energy in its molten salt circuits that it can run 24/7 - effectively making it a base load power source. The solar Hot Water systems on domestic and commercial rooftops often have a back up booster coil or gas burner, to cater for periods where the hot water has run out. The Solar Hot water system installed on our roof has a gas booster on the main tank. Its been running for close to 5 years now and has never come on for more than 8% of the year. So greater than 92% of the energy used to heat the water comes directly from the sun. The whole system should pay itself off after about 6 or 7 years. The large solar thermal plants are becoming very advanced in insulation technology and the type and composition of molten salts that they use. They are also now designing in extra storage capacity because the capital investment is worthwhile. There is also the Solar Tower project proposed by Australian company Environmission - different conceptual idea but nevertheless a 24/7 base load option (although the output does drop during the night to about 50 - 65%) Animation http://www.enviromission.com.au/irm/content/movies/towerfunction.html |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Ajax on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 10:33am Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 2nd, 2013 at 12:12pm:
Hey banana breath I thought you were against nuclear power......................????? HHmmmnnnn a Neanderthal with split personality.....???? |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by muso on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 10:56am BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:56am:
There are all kinds of storage options available. They include the CSIRO Rankine Cycle (ammonia synthesis), pumped hydroelectric and fused salt storage. They already use molten salt storage in the US. There is also cryogenic storage - you use the electricity to liquefy nitrogen and then use the vaporised gas to drive a turbine. |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:18pm
IAEA to send a probe team to the Fukushima meltdown disaster site by the end of November 2013
Over 950 days since the meltdowns and the IAEA is NOW sending in a probe team. Perhaps the team can determine WHERE the melted down CORIUMS are, their shape, size and temperature? I wonder if anybody on ozpolitic.com knows ??? |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:21pm Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 10:33am:
keep sucking in that conspiracy dogma you freaked up stenched maggot slothed slab of excrement |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Ajax on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:32pm Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:21pm:
You better go pick some fleas of your mate hairy asre |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:37pm Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:32pm:
what's a hairy asre? |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Ajax on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:40pm Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:37pm:
LMFAO...exactly what its says...LOL....!!!!!! |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:42pm Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:40pm:
So speak some German in public Ajax Show the world how honest you are How cowardly you are How you pretend to be someone else |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Ajax on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:50pm Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:42pm:
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:00pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaOtlfJNQ0g&feature=player_detailpage
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by # on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:10pm muso wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 10:56am:
In the short term (as in right now) batteries seem to be the most likely candidate. Mostly, lithium-ion. http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Slideshow-DOE-Energy-Storage-Project-Portfolio-Funded-by-ARRA http://reneweconomy.com.au/2013/origin-says-solar-and-storage-coming-quicker-than-thought-76354 http://reneweconomy.com.au/2013/california-storage-21644 http://cleantechnica.com/2013/10/09/point-will-small-scale-solar-energy-storage-become-viable/ |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by # on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:15pm Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 12:40pm:
The only definition of asre that I can find is the Auditing Standard on Review Engagements. Do they grow hair? |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:16pm
Nuclear power has NEVER been economically viable.
Always subsidised by the tax payer to ridiculous levels. Nuclear reactors cannot even be insured for public liability and compensation anywhere in the world. The stock market has NEVER fully funded a nuclear power plant via a public float. Why not? To then talk about the price of nuclear power in terms of cents/kWhr and compare it with other methods of power generation is also a ridiculous task. |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Ajax on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:24pm # wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:15pm:
You gotta get out more hash and do a bit of socialising instead of reading propaganda from the club of rome. |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:26pm
liar
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Ajax on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:29pm Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:26pm:
that applies to you as well chimp. |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 3:41pm Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:29pm:
So you are paranoid Ajax - how did you know that label applied to you? It is a nameless floating label, and yet it only dragged in one RESPONDENT - yourself I may have faults, I may even reverse my stance in here depending on my mood at the time. BUT I am only one - I need not wear more than one mask I need not masquerade as an individual of a certain culture. The ultimate moral crime in forums |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Ajax on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 3:59pm Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 3:41pm:
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 6:37pm
what on Earth is Chernobyl Cs137 doing in soil surrounding the Baltic Sea?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUJOr4PgMWA&feature=player_detailpage |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Chimp_Logic on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 6:39pm
A very elucidating PM has revealed WHO mr Ajax is pretending to be.
Very interesting ladies and gentlemen |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by # on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 6:58pm Ajax wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 1:24pm:
Confirmed: Ajax really doesn't have a clue. |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Ajax on Nov 4th, 2013 at 10:31am Chimp_Logic wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 6:39pm:
Still babbling after your medication chimp....?? |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Ajax on Nov 4th, 2013 at 10:33am # wrote on Nov 3rd, 2013 at 6:58pm:
So says the man that posts every piece of AGW religious information known to be on the internet....!!! |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by muso on Nov 4th, 2013 at 10:48am Ajax wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 10:33am:
All Hail Lord Monckton! |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by # on Nov 4th, 2013 at 11:06am Ajax wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 10:33am:
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Deathridesahorse on Nov 4th, 2013 at 11:35am muso wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 10:48am:
ALl heil andrew bolt |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Ajax on Nov 4th, 2013 at 11:55am # wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 11:06am:
It's not only the pseudo science that is full of holes. So is this consensus you continually like to bring up. This is how your famous consensus started. http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2012/07/17/that-scientific-global-warming-consensus-not/ |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by # on Nov 4th, 2013 at 2:30pm By Giles Parkinson on 4 November 2013 The story we published on Friday comparing the costs of new nuclear, now that they have been defined by contract signed by the UK Government for the construction of the $24 billion Hinkley C facility – with clean energy alternatives such as wind and solar, certainly generated a lot of interest, and comment. Since then, we have received an analysis from Deutsche Bank, which makes some other observations about the cost of nuclear, the comparisons with gas, the price of abatement, and the cost of upkeep for France’s existing fleet. The first point made by Deutsche is that this deal underlines the fact that nuclear is not cheap, but really, really expensive – a point that should not be forgotten in Australia, where there is still a push for nuclear in some quarters despite the abundant alternatives (in particular solar) that are not available to the UK. As we have noted in the other article, the £92.50/MWh strike price is nearly double the current average cost of generation in the UK. Deutsche takes issue with the UK government’s claim that the contract is “competitive with other large-scale clean energy and with gas’. It notes that this contract would only be cheaper than gas generation if the crude oil price (to which UK gas is linked) averages more than $150 barrel in real terms over the next 40 years. This, says Deutsche Bank, is around 3 times the average oil price over the last 40 years, and a 50 per cent premium to the average oil price over the last 5 years. “Such comparisons do not show that this nuclear contract will be more expensive than gas generation (in 40 years), since conditions in the future may be very different from those of the past,” the Deutsche analysts write. “ However it does demonstrate that signing the proposed nuclear contract would commit the UK to buying electricity which would be expensive by historic standards.” It later describes the 35 year contract as “a poor trade for reducing risk.” Then Deutsche Bank looks at the carbon cost of nuclear. It calculates that if the oil price were to remain at the current level of $100/barrel (in real terms), the cost of gas generation would be around £68/MWh (before paying for carbon emissions). Taking into account the amount of carbon emissions saved and the extra generation costs of nuclear, the nuclear generation comes at an implied cost of £65/tonne of carbon dioxide saved. It notes that this carbon cost is more than ten times higher than the current traded price of carbon emissions in the EU ETS, is roughly twice the targeted level of the UK carbon price floor in 2020 set out by the Treasury in December 2011 (£30/tonne in 2009 prices), although it is less than the £70/tonne price floor envisaged in 2030. It says that nuclear is only justified in the UK if the government is serious about largely decarbonising the electricity grid by 2030, as has been canvassed by the UK’s Climate Change Council – the UK equivalent of the Climate Change Authority that Tony Abbott wants to disband. Deutsche notes that it does not meet UK’s short term needs to meet its 2020, which likely be met with more wind and biomass. The CCC envisaged several scenarios to cut the UK’s carbon emissions to 50g/CO2-eMWh by 2030. The first scenario, see graph below, envisages 18GW of new nuclear. Deutsche Bank says this would require 5 more new nuclear facilities the size of Hinkley to be built within 16 years – not only is such a target “hugely ambitious”, Deutsche says it would still be “not be nearly enough in itself to meet such a decarbonisation target.” The UK would need at least as much wind generation as nuclear, and some low-carbon flexible generation. Deutsche also notes that CCS is highly ambitious, as the technology is not proven, which leaves the most likely scenarios as being high renewables, or high energy efficiency, both of which leave wind and other renewables providing more than 50 per cent of the UK’s generation by 2030. And just in case anyone feels like arguing that it is just new-build and new generation nuclear that is costly, this graph below should blow a few misconceptions. It’s another from the Deutsche Bank team, and it shows the estimated capital expenditure requirement for the EdF fleet of nuclear reactors in France. Note that it is significantly higher than the original cost of the reactors in the 1970s and 1980s. Deutsche Bank says consumer electricity prices are being jacked up to meet some of that cost, but it estimates that EdF will need to spend €55 billion ($79 billion), a situation that will leave it in a cash-flow negative situation (It already has an €85 billion debt). [continued ...] |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by # on Nov 4th, 2013 at 2:30pm
[... contiuned]
As Deutche Bank noted, any investment in new reactors would need to be funded on top of the refurbishment budget. Given that it is already cash-flow negative and has such a huge debt, few people have any clue how that could possibly be done. Which is why EdF’s major shareholder, the French government, is looking to reduce the share of nuclear in France’s generation to around 50 per cent from more than 70 per cent, and intends to fill that hole with (cheaper) renewables. Still, Deutsche Bank notes that EdF has effectively handballed the risk of new nuclear to consumer and the UK government. The consumer is picking up the tab through higher electricity bills, and the UK government is using taxpayers money to guarantee 65 per cent of the project cost. With the involvement of Chinese nuclear interests, that leaves EdF with an exposure of just £3.5 billion. |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by # on Nov 4th, 2013 at 2:31pm Ajax wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 11:55am:
Yes, well:- Larry Bell Quote:
Forbes, Inc. Quote:
I listen to the best. You put faith in the rest. You've given no reason to suppose that you know any more of the science than I do. Quite the opposite, in fact. Yet you assert that the science is "full of holes". You're keen to believe that, but lack the skills to make the assessment. |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by Ajax on Nov 4th, 2013 at 3:55pm # wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 2:31pm:
There is no denying the truth.....no matter how you try and wrap it................!!!!!!! Quote:
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by # on Nov 4th, 2013 at 4:37pm Ajax wrote on Nov 4th, 2013 at 3:55pm:
Actually, there have been several papers: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
In addition to which, can you name a single scientific organisation that disagrees with the consensus? |
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Title: Re: Nuclear prices itself out of market Post by muso on Nov 4th, 2013 at 5:58pm
Interesting enough, a number of climate scientists have recently come out in favour of nuclear:
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/11/03/world/nuclear-energy-climate-change-scientists/index.html?eref=edition&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=cnni Quote:
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