Quote:

Mingdong Chen allegedly became angry when his relatives tried to kick him out of her [sic] Sunset Park apartment. He had been 'bouncing around' and was out of work prior to the killings. Mingdong Chen is taken from the 66th precinct after being charged in the murders of his cousin's family. A 25-year-old Chinese transient told cops he brutally killed his cousin's wife and four children with a meat cleaver because he wasn’t happy with his life, a police source said. Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn/stabbing-suspect-cousin-kids-dad-staying-family-article-1.1498147#ixzz2izePo1ds

Whats that you say? Not a proper "honour killing" because it wasn't committed by a muslim?

Clearly this guy murdered his relatives because he felt the same sort of humiliation that the bone fide muslim honour killers felt. Yet only one is known as honour killing - why is that?

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 28^th, 2013 at 3:59pm:

Quote: Mingdong Chen allegedly became angry when his relatives tried to kick him out of her [sic] Sunset Park apartment. He had been 'bouncing around' and was out of work prior to the killings. Mingdong Chen is taken from the 66th precinct after being charged in the murders of his cousin's family. A 25-year-old Chinese transient told cops he brutally killed his cousin's wife and four children with a meat cleaver because he wasn’t happy with his life, a police source said. Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn/stabbing-suspect-cousin-kids-dad-staying-family-article-1.1498147#ixzz2izePo1ds Whats that you say? Not a proper "honour killing" because it wasn't committed by a muslim? Clearly this guy murdered his relatives because he felt the same sort of humiliation that the bone fide muslim honour killers felt. Yet only one is known as honour killing - why is that?

gandalf,

That is a stretch, to describe the incident above, as an "honour killing in New York".

The murders above were criminal acts, motivated by what ?

The murders were motivated because 'he' was destitute, and was made homeless; "because he wasn’t happy with his life".





+++

The term 'honour killing' is in 'popular' use in the MSM [often used to refer to moslems, killing other MOSLEM family members].

And the term 'honour killing' is a misnomer.




"Honour killing" is the term that has been invented and used, by Western media, in Western nations - so as to divert accountability, for murder, away from the moslem community.

"Oh it was a family matter. A matter of family honour. That is why he/she died."

DEFLECTION, DEFLECTION, DEFLECTION, abetted by the liberal Western media, who refuse to speak truthfully, and refuse to describe truthfully/accurately,   ......the 'religious' intimidation and 'religious' violence which is present and which occurs constantly within all moslem communities.





Australia: Muslim strangles wife to death for being "too Australian"
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/04/australia-muslim-strangles-wife-to-death-for-being-too-australian.html

Quote:

A man who killed his wife by using her veil to strangle her in their Melbourne home did so in the belief he was entitled to dominate her, a Supreme Court judge has found. Soltan Azizi was today sentenced to 22 years' jail by Justice Betty King, who said the Afghani refugee had been physically abusive towards Marzieh Rahimi throughout their 14-year marriage. Justice King said Ms Rahimi had sought help from social workers and was intending to leave Azizi, despite him warning that he would kill her if she tried. She said Azizi had complained to Ms Rahimi's sister in the days prior to her killing that his wife was becoming "too Australian", meaning "she was not a docile and good wife in the terms you expected her to be". "It is clear you were unable to accept that your wife had rights, which rights included the ability to leave you if that was what she desired," Justice King said. "... Her death clearly resulted because of your belief that you were entitled to dominate and dictate to your wife what she could and could not do."...

Q.
But if we should not refer to these murders as "honour killing", then what are they ???



A.
Every 'honour killing' is the religiously justified, 'righteous' killing of an 'apostate'/rebel.

These are examples of what ISLAMIC texts declare about how apostates must be treated,



The Hadith,
"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

ISLAMIC law texts declare, moslems can 'lawfully' kill 'unbelievers'/apostates,

"Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."...."
fiqhussunnah/#3.110

n.b.
"Whoever......becomes an unbeliever.....his blood may legally be spilled."




The Koran instructs moslems,
'Take no apostates as friends. And when apostates oppose you [in Allah's way], kill them.'
Koran 4.88, 89








MURDERING APOSTATES, IS WHAT MAINSTREAM ISLAM SANCTIONS [i.e. makes lawful!!],

AND MURDERING APOSTATES IS TOTALLY LEGAL IN EVERY MOSLEM COMMUNITY

Saudi extremist gaoled with 500 lashes as well
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1381239235/7#7

Quote:

Filicide [killing of your own child] is not punishable by death, by ISLAMIC law, because it is always presumed by ISLAMIC jurists that the act of filicide [committed by a moslem], is always associated with the capital crime of apostasy [i.e. a rebellion against the authority of ISLAM, which has been demonstrated, by the victim, in an act of rebellion against the authority his/her parents] by the victim.

gandalf,

Instead of constantly using deceit and and lies and denial in your posts,         trying to deflect guilt for wrongdoing [by our laws] away from moslems, why don't you just admit [to us, your cultural hosts] what ISLAM permits ?


gandalf,

Why won't you just admit to us [your cultural hosts] exactly what ISLAM permits ?



Yadda wrote on Oct 29^th, 2013 at 8:46pm:

MURDERING APOSTATES, IS WHAT MAINSTREAM ISLAM SANCTIONS [i.e. makes lawful!!], AND MURDERING APOSTATES IS TOTALLY LEGAL IN EVERY MOSLEM COMMUNITY Saudi extremist gaoled with 500 lashes as well http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1381239235/7#7 Quote: Filicide [killing of your own child] is not punishable by death, by ISLAMIC law, because it is always presumed by ISLAMIC jurists that the act of filicide [committed by a moslem], is always associated with the capital crime of apostasy [i.e. a rebellion against the authority of ISLAM, which has been demonstrated, by the victim, in an act of rebellion against the authority his/her parents] by the victim.

+++




gandalf,

You are,         ...what you claim to hate and despise.




see also....
"Dear muslim, YOU are the kuffar"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1229682951/0#0

Quote:

You who embrace ISLAM, your own lies and deception, have become a witness against you, before God...... "kuffar" = = "...is an Arabic word meaning.....[an unbeliever] a person....who hides, denies, or covers the truth."

Y. as usual my point flies right over your head.

You claimed a little while back that filicide is "common" in the muslim world. These types of killings, which always gets our western media in a frenzy, are popularly known as "honour killings".

Whatever you meant by "common" (you never did clarify despite repeated requests), there is a fairly widespread assumption that muslims kill members of their family at higher rates than any non-muslim society - mainly because of the way 'honour killings' are so highly publicised in our media. My opinion is that this assumption is wrong because it is utterly baseless. Part of the problem is that whenever a muslim is killed by a member of his/her family, it is always portrayed as a matter of "honour" - regardless of the circumstances. My point here is to use the same prescription in non-muslim society. A man kills his relatives for whatever reason - is it about "honour" who knows? Such a concept is neither here nor there. Yet if it was muslim, the media and the public would jump at the opportunity to call it an "honour killing". Why is that?

Ultimately, what this boils down to is we have no basis to call this honour killing thing a muslim phenomenom when we don't even know the rate of these killings compared to non-muslims.

So called "honour killings" are extremely prevalent in western society, they are not a Muslim or middle eastern only phenomenon.

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 28^th, 2013 at 3:59pm:

Quote: Mingdong Chen allegedly became angry when his relatives tried to kick him out of her [sic] Sunset Park apartment. He had been 'bouncing around' and was out of work prior to the killings. Mingdong Chen is taken from the 66th precinct after being charged in the murders of his cousin's family. A 25-year-old Chinese transient told cops he brutally killed his cousin's wife and four children with a meat cleaver because he wasn’t happy with his life, a police source said. Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/brooklyn/stabbing-suspect-cousin-kids-dad-staying-family-article-1.1498147#ixzz2izePo1ds Whats that you say? Not a proper "honour killing" because it wasn't committed by a muslim? Clearly this guy murdered his relatives because he felt the same sort of humiliation that the bone fide muslim honour killers felt. Yet only one is known as honour killing - why is that?

No, I don't think this classifies as an 'honour killing'. Seem to be a straight out rage crime.
As I understand the term, "honour killings" are done to redeem the honour of the family in the eyes of their peers. This one seem to just be about jealously, not honour.

ian wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 12:48am:

So called "honour killings" are extremely prevalent in western society, they are not a Muslim or middle eastern only phenomenon.

QFT


gizmo_2655 wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 2:08am:

No, I don't think this classifies as an 'honour killing'. Seem to be a straight out rage crime. As I understand the term, "honour killings" are done to redeem the honour of the family in the eyes of their peers. This one seem to just be about jealously, not honour.

gizmo: there is this perception that family murders in the muslim world are some cold and calculated act that is considered quite normal to protect the family honour. Murder in the name of "honour" is apparently a muslim thing. I believe the reality is that murders of family members happen at least as prevalently in just about any non-muslim society, and the motives are pretty much exactly the same.

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 29^th, 2013 at 9:38pm:

Y. as usual my point flies right over your head. You claimed a little while back that filicide is "common" in the muslim world. These types of killings, which always gets our western media in a frenzy, are popularly known as "honour killings". Whatever you meant by "common" (you never did clarify despite repeated requests), there is a fairly widespread assumption that muslims kill members of their family at higher rates than any non-muslim society - mainly because of the way 'honour killings' are so highly publicised in our media. My opinion is that this assumption is wrong because it is utterly baseless. Part of the problem is that whenever a muslim is killed by a member of his/her family, it is always portrayed as a matter of "honour" - regardless of the circumstances. My point here is to use the same prescription in non-muslim society. A man kills his relatives for whatever reason - is it about "honour" who knows? Such a concept is neither here nor there. Yet if it was muslim, the media and the public would jump at the opportunity to call it an "honour killing". Why is that? Ultimately, what this boils down to is we have no basis to call this honour killing thing a muslim phenomenom when we don't even know the rate of these killings compared to non-muslims.

gandalf,

Individuals in the wider community will often sometimes kill members of their own family, with motives related to jealousy.

And perhaps at other times, individuals in the wider community will often sometimes kill members of their own family, when they are motivated overcome by feelings of by rage.

But such murders and their motives ARE NEVER EXCUSED by the wider community.



Whereas moslem/ISLAMIC culture does excuse 'familial' murders - where the 'right to kill' the member(s) of their own family exists, based upon cultural and 'religious' reasons.

Where the motive for the murder is often given [AND OFTEN JUSTIFIED WITHIN THE MOSLEM COMMUNITY] as the moslem murderers' 'right to kill' the member(s) of his own family, [a right] based upon cultural or 'religious' reasons [being unrelated to the laws concerning murder, within the wider host community].



"....where the 'right to kill' the member(s) of their own family exists, based upon cultural and 'religious' reasons."

The Hadith,
"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260



ISLAMIC law texts declare, moslems can 'lawfully' kill 'unbelievers'/apostates,

"Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."...."
fiqhussunnah/#3.110

n.b.
"Whoever......becomes an unbeliever.....his blood may legally be spilled."




The Koran instructs moslems,
'Take no apostates as friends. And when apostates oppose you [in Allah's way], kill them.'
Koran 4.88, 89

There are other exhortations within the Koran, that a moslem must connect himself to ISLAM and fellow moslems, even when this means his separation from his immediate family [who are disbelievers].






gandalf,

I do not have access to figures proving that 'familial' murders are more common within moslem community.

But violent 'familial' murders do seem to be a lot more common within the moslem community [than in the wider community].

Seem ?

Is that just because violent 'familial' murders within moslem community seem to be reported so often [e.g. in Europe, which hosts a large moslem guest community] ?

Perhaps.



But gandalf, a question;

Q.
If [as you will no doubt claim] violent 'familial' murders within the moslem community are not sanctioned by ISLAM, then shouldn't moslems be working feverishly to OUTLAW and to completely ERADICATE such occurrences ???


And another question gandalf ;

Q.
Why is the eradication of these violent 'familial' murders within moslem communities proving so, so, difficult to accomplish among such a virtuous people - when moslems frequently claim that there is no or little will to commit such murders in their community ?            :P


Google;
gallery of honour killing, muslim right to kill





+++

Moslems are a lying, deceitful, treacherous, murderous people.

And moslems are driven by an insane, irrational commitment [and their individual choice], to follow a murderous death cult.

A cursed people.

That is my opinion of moslems.

n.b.
Dictionary;
Muslim = = a follower of Islam.





Quote:

"....the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood."

ISLAMIC scholar, Sayyid Qutb

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 5:44am:

ian wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 12:48am: So called "honour killings" are extremely prevalent in western society, they are not a Muslim or middle eastern only phenomenon. QFT gizmo_2655 wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 2:08am: No, I don't think this classifies as an 'honour killing'. Seem to be a straight out rage crime. As I understand the term, "honour killings" are done to redeem the honour of the family in the eyes of their peers. This one seem to just be about jealously, not honour. gizmo: there is this perception that family murders in the muslim world are some cold and calculated act that is considered quite normal to protect the family honour. Murder in the name of "honour" is apparently a muslim thing. I believe the reality is that murders of family members happen at least as prevalently in just about any non-muslim society, and the motives are pretty much exactly the same.

Well I don't believe that the honour killings (or family murders, if you prefer) are ever 'cold', quite the opposite in fact. Calculated, well yes that'd be true.

And they seem to be a world wide phenomenon, not just a muslim thing, although the muslim ones seem to be the only ones reported.
Every cultural group has had some form of 'honour killing' tradition at one time or another.
I guess it's like female circumcision, that's related more to region than religion.

Yadda wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 8:47am:

But gandalf, a question; Q. If [as you will no doubt claim] violent 'familial' murders within the moslem community are not sanctioned by ISLAM, then shouldn't moslems be working feverishly to OUTLAW and to completely ERADICATE such occurrences ??? And another question gandalf ; Q. Why is the eradication of these violent 'familial' murders within moslem communities proving so, so, difficult to accomplish among such a virtuous people - when moslems frequently claim that there is no or little will to commit such murders in their community ?

Yadda, you realise you just asked why islam has a problem with a particular issue, and why muslims are not eradicating the problem - straight after you just openly admitted you have no idea about how prevalent the problem is in the muslim communities.  :P

If I am right, and the "problem" is just as prevalent in the muslim community as any non-muslim community (which by inference, you admit is a distinct possibility), then where does that leave your argument Yadda? Makes it hard to keep propping this up as a uniquely islamic issue doesn't it?

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 10:44am:

Yadda wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 8:47am: But gandalf, a question; Q. If [as you will no doubt claim] violent 'familial' murders within the moslem community are not sanctioned by ISLAM, then shouldn't moslems be working feverishly to OUTLAW and to completely ERADICATE such occurrences ??? And another question gandalf ; Q. Why is the eradication of these violent 'familial' murders within moslem communities proving so, so, difficult to accomplish among such a virtuous people - when moslems frequently claim that there is no or little will to commit such murders in their community ? Yadda, you realise you just asked why islam has a problem with a particular issue, and why muslims are not eradicating the problem - straight after you just openly admitted you have no idea about how prevalent the problem is in the muslim communities.  :P

gandalf,

I do not have the figures to hand, comparing moslem communities and non-moslem communities re familial murder rates.






Quote:

If I am right, and the "problem" is just as prevalent in the muslim community as any non-muslim community (which by inference, you admit is a distinct possibility), then where does that leave your argument Yadda? Makes it hard to keep propping this up as a uniquely islamic issue doesn't it?

gandalf,

I do NOT allow [or admit], that "the "problem" is just as prevalent in the muslim community as any non-muslim community (which by inference, you admit is a distinct possibility)"




Your argument, is a ludicrous argument.

The argument that, we could expect the rate of familial murder to be similar, in two [different] communities, when each of those communities has a very different law [from the other], relating to  familial murder.

e.g.
When in all Western societies all such murders are unlawful.

But where in the ISLAMIC community, ISLAMIC law 'lawfully' excuses the murder of wives, sisters, brothers, sons, and daughters, so long as the reason that the murderer gives [for committing the murder], aligns with a lawful reason for committing the murder [i.e. the lawful reason being, because the victim of the murder was in rebellion against ISLAMIC authority over their life].







Yadda wrote on Oct 21^st, 2013 at 10:05am:

+++ Q. What behaviour is halal [permissible] to a moslem [i.e. to every moslem] ? Answer..... ALWAYS REMEMBER THIS!; For a devout moslem, all things are permissible, if they are permitted by Sharia.

.....and it is completely lawful within the moslem community, for a moslem to murder family members who have become disbelievers.




+++


AND AGAIN, THESE PROVISIONS WITHIN ISLAMIC JURISPRUDENCE [AND GIVEN AUTHORITY, FROM WITHIN ISLAM'S OWN FOUNDATION TEXTS - KORAN & HADITH] GIVE EVERY MOSLEM THE LAWFUL SANCTION TO MURDER A 'REBELLIOUS' FAMILY MEMBER;


Yadda wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 8:47am:

"....where the 'right to kill' the member(s) of their own family exists, based upon cultural and 'religious' reasons." The Hadith, "...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him." hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260 ISLAMIC law texts declare, moslems can 'lawfully' kill 'unbelievers'/apostates, "Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."...." fiqhussunnah/#3.110 n.b. "Whoever......becomes an unbeliever.....his blood may legally be spilled." The Koran instructs moslems, 'Take no apostates as friends. And when apostates oppose you [in Allah's way], kill them.' Koran 4.88, 89

+++




gandalf,

When will you stop your denials ?

ISLAMIC law excuses the murder of  family members, if the victim(s) are murdered for the reason of their rebellion against ISLAM's authority over their lives.

OR, will you continue to deflect [and deny] ?

ian wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 12:48am:

So called "honour killings" are extremely prevalent in western society, they are not a Muslim or middle eastern only phenomenon.

Any statistics or sources to show just how prevalent "extremely" is?

... wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 2:08pm:

ian wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 12:48am: So called "honour killings" are extremely prevalent in western society, they are not a Muslim or middle eastern only phenomenon. Any statistics or sources to show just how prevalent "extremely" is?

Yes, any statistics or sources available, to show just how prevalent familial murders are, segregated by culture or religion ?

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 28^th, 2013 at 3:59pm:

[quote] bone fide muslim honour killers felt.

Sick....

Yadda wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 2:14pm:

... wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 2:08pm: ian wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 12:48am: So called "honour killings" are extremely prevalent in western society, they are not a Muslim or middle eastern only phenomenon. Any statistics or sources to show just how prevalent "extremely" is? Yes, any statistics or sources available, to show just how prevalent familial murders are, segregated by culture or religion ?

When are we going to see yours?   :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D

|dev|null wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 3:28pm:

Yadda wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 2:14pm: ... wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 2:08pm: ian wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 12:48am: So called "honour killings" are extremely prevalent in western society, they are not a Muslim or middle eastern only phenomenon. Any statistics or sources to show just how prevalent "extremely" is? Yes, any statistics or sources available, to show just how prevalent familial murders are, segregated by culture or religion ? When are we going to see yours?   :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D

Hot_Breath,

My response to YOUR post;


Yadda wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 2:03pm:

gandalf, Your argument, is a ludicrous argument. The argument that, we could expect the rate of familial murder to be similar, in two [different] communities, when each of those communities has a very different law [from the other], relating to  familial murder. e.g. When in all Western societies all such murders are unlawful. But where in the ISLAMIC community, ISLAMIC law 'lawfully' excuses the murder of wives, sisters, brothers, sons, and daughters, so long as the reason that the murderer gives [for committing the murder], aligns with a lawful reason for committing the murder [i.e. the lawful reason being, because the victim of the murder was in rebellion against ISLAMIC authority over their life]. ........... The Hadith, "...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him." hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

|dev|null wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 3:28pm:

Yadda wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 2:14pm: ... wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 2:08pm: ian wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 12:48am: So called "honour killings" are extremely prevalent in western society, they are not a Muslim or middle eastern only phenomenon. Any statistics or sources to show just how prevalent "extremely" is? Yes, any statistics or sources available, to show just how prevalent familial murders are, segregated by culture or religion ? When are we going to see yours?   :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D

I keep seeing a figure of 91% of 'honor killings" worldwide being done by muselmen, with the remainder being homos killed for being homos in south america.
far be it from me to accept this claim at face value - it could be 90%, it could be 92%, but one things for sure - It doesn't leave a lot of room for the "extremely prevalent" honor killings in the west.

ian wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 12:48am:

So called "honour killings" are extremely prevalent in western society, they are not a Muslim or middle eastern only phenomenon.

Sorry ian, Western society doesn't generally kill in the name of honour (not since dueling went out of fashion, anyway). We're Capitalists, much more likely to sue, than kill.
Cash (or prison) is almost always an acceptable substitute.

Yadda wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 2:03pm:

The argument that, we could expect the rate of familial murder to be similar, in two [different] communities, when each of those communities has a very different law [from the other], relating to  familial murder. e.g. When in all Western societies all such murders are unlawful.

1. No country on earth abides by your demented idea of what islamic law is.

2. Name a single muslim country that "has a very different law" to western countries  vis-a-vis familial murder.

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 5:34pm:

Yadda wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 2:03pm: The argument that, we could expect the rate of familial murder to be similar, in two [different] communities, when each of those communities has a very different law [from the other], relating to  familial murder. e.g. When in all Western societies all such murders are unlawful. 1. No country on earth abides by your demented idea of what islamic law is. 2. Name a single muslim country that "has a very different law" to western countries  vis-a-vis familial murder.

#1,
One example - Jordan


Quote:

"....Murder is punishable by death in Jordan but in so-called "honour killings" courts can commute or reduce sentences, particularly if the victim's family asks for leniency...."

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/latest-news/jordanian-man-charged-over-honour-killing/story-fn3dxity-1226101631642




#2,
One example - Saudi Arabia


Quote:

"British girl kidnapped by Saudi father: "I told [the Saudi police] he was keeping me there against my will and all they said was, 'He's your father, if he wants he can kill you'." "

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/04/british-girl-kidnapped-by-saudi-father-i-told-the-police-he-was-keeping-me-there-against-my-will-and.htmli


+++

gandalf,

But the details in these examples, have nothing to do with ISLAM.         :P

Right ?



And you are a Kifir, gandalf.

It is the hot place for you and your 'bros'!

Yadda wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 10:30pm:

#1, One example - Jordan

The Australian article is extrapolating - misleadingly.

In islamic law sentences can be commuted/reduced in any type of murder if the victim's family asks for leniency. Usually they will be compensated by the payment of blood money. So it is not unique for so called honour killings.


Yadda wrote on Oct 30^th, 2013 at 10:30pm:

#2, One example - Saudi Arabia

a single anecdote means nothing. What does actual Saudi LAW say? Find me the part in Saudi law - or Jordanian law for that matter, that states that sentences for familial murder must be less than the sentence for any other type of murder.

I concede the point that in regards to the victim's families request for leniency having an influence on the sentencing - that does differ to our western laws. Is that a bad thing though?

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 10:05am:

Yadda wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 10:30pm: #1, One example - Jordan The Australian article is extrapolating - misleadingly. In islamic law sentences can be commuted/reduced in any type of murder if the victim's family asks for leniency. Usually they will be compensated by the payment of blood money. So it is not unique for so called honour killings. Yadda wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 10:30pm: #2, One example - Saudi Arabia a single anecdote means nothing. What does actual Saudi LAW say? Find me the part in Saudi law - or Jordanian law for that matter, that states that sentences for familial murder must be less than the sentence for any other type of murder. I concede the point that in regards to the victim's families request for leniency having an influence on the sentencing - that does differ to our western laws. Is that a bad thing though?

If the victim's family is also the accused's family (in the case of familial killings), then yes it is a bad thing.

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 10:05am:

Yadda wrote on Oct 30th, 2013 at 10:30pm: #1, One example - Jordan The Australian article is extrapolating - misleadingly.

Of course it is.

It is an ignorant infidel account, which is scrutinising moslem affairs, and which is
misrepresenting/misinterpreting/slandering moslems and ISLAM.

Those damnable Kuffar!!!!!!

They will all go to hell for their slander, against Allah's perfect religion!!!!!!!

:D           :D           :D         



+++

My assesment is correct, isn't it gandalf ?           ;)            ;D

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 29^th, 2013 at 9:38pm:

Y. as usual my point flies right over your head. You claimed a little while back that filicide is "common" in the muslim world. These types of killings, which always gets our western media in a frenzy, are popularly known as "honour killings". Whatever you meant by "common" (you never did clarify despite repeated requests), there is a fairly widespread assumption that muslims kill members of their family at higher rates than any non-muslim society - mainly because of the way 'honour killings' are so highly publicised in our media. My opinion is that this assumption is wrong because it is utterly baseless. Part of the problem is that whenever a muslim is killed by a member of his/her family, it is always portrayed as a matter of "honour" - regardless of the circumstances. My point here is to use the same prescription in non-muslim society. A man kills his relatives for whatever reason - is it about "honour" who knows? Such a concept is neither here nor there. Yet if it was muslim, the media and the public would jump at the opportunity to call it an "honour killing". Why is that? Ultimately, what this boils down to is we have no basis to call this honour killing thing a muslim phenomenom when we don't even know the rate of these killings compared to non-muslims.

How was this guy's honour violated by any of the victims?

Please explain.

Soren wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 1:33pm:

How was this guy's honour violated by any of the victims? Please explain.

Thats actually my point S. Every case of muslims killing members of their family is automatically labelled an honour killing - regardless of what actually happened. We don't take the same attitude towards non-muslim familial killings - particularly in cases involving westerners. In the west they are aberrations, in the islamic world its cultural. We (as in people like Yadda) make these assumptions without even knowing how prevalent the phenomenon is in the islamic world compared to the non-islamic world. How does that work? How can we say something is cultural or systematic when for all we know its just as much an aberration as it is in the western world. One way we can do that is lump all the sickos in the muslim world together and call it "cultural" or "islamic", but dismiss the equivalents in the west as mere aberrations - despite the fact that they are equally on the fringe in both places. Thats my point about this story - its just another western aberration, whereas if we heard a report of the same thing, in the same circumstances in the muslim world, we would be drawing all the usual conclusions about "culture" and "islam".

Some people move to another  country with a different culture  and have absolutely no inclination to change or adapt. Instead they go the other way. Just like those old Greek immigrants that wear black and go back to Greece for a holiday and find themselves caught in a time warp. So some girl from one of these types of families brings home a Christian kid or wants to change religion etc. That's the reason these murders are occurring. They can't stand the fact that their family, culture or religion  may change. WHY GO ABROAD THEN!!Measures by western governments like citizenship tests were constructed to counter these occurrences.

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 2:51pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 31st, 2013 at 1:33pm: How was this guy's honour violated by any of the victims? Please explain. Thats actually my point S. Every case of muslims killing members of their family is automatically labelled an honour killing - regardless of what actually happened. We don't take the same attitude towards non-muslim familial killings - particularly in cases involving westerners. In the west they are aberrations, in the islamic world its cultural. We (as in people like Yadda) make these assumptions without even knowing how prevalent the phenomenon is in the islamic world compared to the non-islamic world. How does that work? How can we say something is cultural or systematic when for all we know its just as much an aberration as it is in the western world. One way we can do that is lump all the sickos in the muslim world together and call it "cultural" or "islamic", but dismiss the equivalents in the west as mere aberrations - despite the fact that they are equally on the fringe in both places. Thats my point about this story - its just another western aberration, whereas if we heard a report of the same thing, in the same circumstances in the muslim world, we would be drawing all the usual conclusions about "culture" and "islam".

Murdering family members is certainly 'aberrant' behaviour, ganalf.

What heart could/would sanction it ?





FURTHER;

gandalf asks,
"How can we say [familial murder may be predominantly] cultural or systematic [in an ISLAMIC setting]."  ???



gandalf,

How ???

Because in an ISLAMIC 'environment'/jurisdiction, the 'abhorrent' behaviour [of familial murder], has an extra motivation/inducement - which is not present within all Western jurisdictions.

And that 'inducement' is, that familial murder is 'lawfully' excused, if the murder is committed against an enemy of Allah.



as per.....

The Hadith,
"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260


AND;

"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98


"....those who reject Allah have no protector."        [<---- i.e. 'outlaws', are NOT protected, by the 'common' law]
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11





+++



gandalf,

I hope for the day, for you to openly acknowledge, that ISLAM is, and promotes, wickedness in hearts of men.

I am not holding my breath!

Yadda wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 3:33pm:

And that 'inducement' is, that familial murder is 'lawfully' excused, if the murder is committed against an enemy of Allah.

Name one islamic country, or even islamic legal jurisdiction that "lawfully" excuses familial murder in ANY circumstance. Just one.

Any takers ?

I am growing weary of this charade.

Google;
leniency, muslim murder of sister

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 31^st, 2013 at 2:51pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 31st, 2013 at 1:33pm: How was this guy's honour violated by any of the victims? Please explain. Thats actually my point S. Every case of muslims killing members of their family is automatically labelled an honour killing - regardless of what actually happened. We don't take the same attitude towards non-muslim familial killings - particularly in cases involving westerners. In the west they are aberrations, in the islamic world its cultural. We (as in people like Yadda) make these assumptions without even knowing how prevalent the phenomenon is in the islamic world compared to the non-islamic world. How does that work? How can we say something is cultural or systematic when for all we know its just as much an aberration as it is in the western world. One way we can do that is lump all the sickos in the muslim world together and call it "cultural" or "islamic", but dismiss the equivalents in the west as mere aberrations - despite the fact that they are equally on the fringe in both places. Thats my point about this story - its just another western aberration, whereas if we heard a report of the same thing, in the same circumstances in the muslim world, we would be drawing all the usual conclusions about "culture" and "islam".

I don't actually think that happens as much as you believe gandalf. Most of the Muslim based murders that hit the international press do seem to conform to a fairly limited set of circumstances (i.e Father kills daughter for having sex before marriage, or for refusing arranged marriage etc), the ordinary domestic murders (hubby kills wife because dinner's late), or the family annihilator type murders where a guy takes out his whole family, don't get much mention in Western press, unless they happen in a Western country.

Gandy, are you suggesting that Western TV, radio and newspapers deliberately present ordinary domestic violence as honour killings and they make up ALL the quotes about family honour and the previous warning by the males of the family and how the women and girls have communicated their fears to others? All made up in the name of some giant conspiracy to invent Muslim honour killings which do not exist?  All the court transcripts posted on the various court websites are fake? Just to invent Muslim honour killing?

This is one of the problems with Muslim who believe in Islam - you are paralysed about being straightforwardly and honestly looking at Islam and being critical of its negative effect on people.

Face it, because it is no secret - people do terrible things in the name of Islam. They quote the Koran when they do these terrible things.  If you think they are distorting Islam, and it matters to you whether they are distorting it or not, you'd better roll up your sleeves and get to work.

Telling the likes of me that taking these people at their own words is wrong will not salvage Islam's reputation. Unfortunately, you have to confront them, as a Muslim, because they will definitely not be swayed by mere infidels.

In other words, if you disagree with them, you have a problem - not me.

Gandy, speak.

Soren wrote on Nov 5^th, 2013 at 10:07pm:

Gandy, are you suggesting that Western TV, radio and newspapers deliberately present ordinary domestic violence as honour killings and they make up ALL the quotes about family honour and the previous warning by the males of the family and how the women and girls have communicated their fears to others? All made up in the name of some giant conspiracy to invent Muslim honour killings which do not exist?  All the court transcripts posted on the various court websites are fake? Just to invent Muslim honour killing?

No.

I'm saying so called "honour" murders are committed by people who are just as irrational, just as emotionally unhinged as people who commit "regular" familial murders. My point is, if this really was a problem unique to islam, then someone should easily be able to show me statistics indicating that muslims kill family members at significantly higher rates than non-muslims. Yet no one has, and poor Yadda had to quietly slink away from his initial bluster about muslim familial killings being "common".


Soren wrote on Nov 5^th, 2013 at 10:07pm:

Face it, because it is no secret - people do terrible things in the name of Islam. They quote the Koran when they do these terrible things.  If you think they are distorting Islam, and it matters to you whether they are distorting it or not, you'd better roll up your sleeves and get to work.

Focus on the topic please Soren. Name a single case of an honour killing in which the name of islam and/or quotes from the quran were invoked. This is very different to terrorism, where the terrorists genuinely believe they are acting in the name of islam. In this case we are almost certainly talking about people who are at best nominally muslim and who know they are not acting in the name of islam. I've seen interviews with honour killers, or would-be honour killers - and I heard a lot of justifying their acts in the name of "family" and "honour", but never Allah or the Quran.

Put simply, this is about a clear-cut case as you can get of this not being about islam.

Soren wrote on Nov 10^th, 2013 at 9:58pm:

Gandy, speak.

A thousand apologies S - I was occupied last week doing something actually useful in the real world.

I'll try very hard to ensure it never happens again.