Brian, would you mind elaborating on this concept of fairness towards an ideology?


Brian Ross wrote on Sep 14^th, 2013 at 11:46pm:

I bend over in no direction, FD.  What I want to see is a fair deal for Muslims and their religion

Would you also demand the same fairness towards Nazism, communism, fascism etc?

FD, would you consider the following "unfair" towards islam?

- making up a story about how the recent Swedish riots were caused by a muslim threatening to honour kill his family in his kitchen (none of which was true)

- claiming that not a single muslim had condemned the recent murder of a British soldier when we know this to be untrue (quotes on this forum)

- dismissing an MI5 report that concluded that participation in mainstream islam is an effective antidote against extremism and terrorism - as a result of MI5 being "inflitrated" by islamists.

I'm still not sure how the concept of fairness towards an ideology even works. I think it's just another of Brian's arm-flailing efforts.

Its not fairness towards an ideology. Its a question of whether you think smearing a particular people (regardless of ideology) is fair game. You seem to think it is.

Quote:

Its not fairness towards an ideology.

Check the thread title Gandalf. Check Brian's post.

righto, I'll check Brian's post:


Quote:

I bend over in no direction, FD.  What I want to see is a fair deal for Muslims and their religion, not bigotry and hatred directed to them because of unreasoning fear and prejudice.   I refuse to accept your viewpoint and I suspect you find that annoying.  If a Muslim breaks the law or does something immoral, then by all means condemn them but stop with the effort to try and use collective guilt to condemn all Muslims in the way you do.

Hence, my point that its not "fairness towards an ideology. Its a question of whether you think smearing a particular people (regardless of ideology) is fair game." I have no idea how you can think this has anything to do with "Fairness towards a religion/ideology".

I don't either. I don't think it even makes sense. But Brian brought it up and I am asking him what he means. I realise you feel obligued to return the favour and try to change the topic for him, but I'm sure he can speak for himself.

I agree - what you attribute Brian as saying doesn't make sense, because he didn't say that, and you use a quote of his that is taken completely out of context.

Looking at what he actually says - as in the quote I just posted - makes perfect sense though.

It might if he left out the bit about fairness for a religion. Waffling on at the end doesn't really change what he said.

It makes perfect sense FD - as does your desperate attempts to excuse prejudice and bigotry against muslims. Sadly.

freediver wrote on Sep 15^th, 2013 at 8:27am:

Brian, would you mind elaborating on this concept of fairness towards an ideology? Brian Ross wrote on Sep 14th, 2013 at 11:46pm: I bend over in no direction, FD.  What I want to see is a fair deal for Muslims and their religion Would you also demand the same fairness towards Nazism, communism, fascism etc?

::)

FD you really are clutching at straws, aren't you?  Comparing apples and oranges?  A religion versus ideologies?  Tsk, tsk, yet again your premise fails.

I would suggest that before condemning a belief system it behoves the condemner to actually understand it.  As Gandalf and I have pointed out upon numerous occasions, you don't understand Islam or Muslims.  You start out from a prejudicial position and you carry that on, despite what you're told.

I don't claim to understand everything about Islam but I do know that Muslims are simply people and no different to any other people.  Some are passionate about their religion, most aren't or rather no more than say Catholics or any other Christian denomination are.  You however treat Muslims as if they are automatons.   

I wonder how many Catholics you know who are divorced/use contraception/had an abortion/etc., etc.?  They seem able to reconcile their views and actions with their beliefs, yet according to you, Muslims must obey every tenant of the Q'ran even when they are contradictory! 

If nothing else you sound like a replay of the criticisms I used to hear levelled at Catholics in Australia when I was a child.  The same ridiculous claims, the same idiotic views.  Australian society recognised how foolish that was and got over that sectarian divide, I hope you'll get over yours.    ::)

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Comparing apples and oranges?  A religion versus ideologies?

So a religion is not an ideology?

If Nazis decided Hitler was God's messenger, would you suddenly be obligued to defend them from "unfair" criticism?


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I would suggest that before condemning a belief system it behoves the condemner to actually understand it.

I ask Muslims about Islam. You do your best to cover your ears every time they open their mouths.


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I don't claim to understand everything about Islam but I do know that Muslims are simply people and no different to any other people.

Except that they are Muslims. I'm sure a Muslim would argue that makes them different. Not that you would accept a Muslim's word on the issue.


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You however treat Muslims as if they are automatons.

So you keep saying. You are wrong.


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I wonder how many Catholics you know who are divorced/use contraception/had an abortion/etc., etc.?  They seem able to reconcile their views and actions with their beliefs, yet according to you, Muslims must obey every tenant of the Q'ran even when they are contradictory!

No Gandalf. According to Muslims they must do this. I am happy for them to abandon Islam.


Quote:

If nothing else you sound like a replay of the criticisms I used to hear levelled at Catholics in Australia when I was a child.

Were the catholics suggesting it is OK to marry 6 year old girls?


Quote:

The same ridiculous claims, the same idiotic views.  Australian society recognised how foolish that was and got over that sectarian divide, I hope you'll get over yours.

And yet here you are, demanding that I criticise catholics in order to be fair to Islam.

freediver wrote on Sep 15^th, 2013 at 11:58am:

Quote: Comparing apples and oranges?  A religion versus ideologies? So a religion is not an ideology?

It isn't.  Religions aren't secular, ideologies are, FD.   ::)


Quote:

If Nazis decided Hitler was God's messenger, would you suddenly be obligued to defend them from "unfair" criticism?

Nope.  I wouldn't piss on Herr Hitler if he was on fire, FD.

Again, comparing apples and oranges, FD.  Tsk, tsk.   ::)


Quote:

[quote]I would suggest that before condemning a belief system it behoves the condemner to actually understand it.

I ask Muslims about Islam. You do your best to cover your ears every time they open their mouths.
[/quote]

I don't.  I also know that no Muslim is empowered to speak for all other Muslims, FD. Unlike you, whom seems to accept any Tom, Dick or Mohammed as the spokesman for all Muslims as long as they bring you something which you can beat all Muslims with.

I have known quite a few Muslims over the years and have found them all, bar one, to be good people.   I don't accept the fringe, Islamist Takfiris as being anything than spokespeople for themselves, FD.

And I'd suggest it doesn't matter how often you are told this, you prefer your bigotry and Islamophobia.  You describe anybody who holds an opinion different to yourself about Muslims as a "limp-wristed apologist", even before you've considered what they say.   ::)


Quote:

[quote]I don't claim to understand everything about Islam but I do know that Muslims are simply people and no different to any other people.

Except that they are Muslims. I'm sure a Muslim would argue that makes them different. Not that you would accept a Muslim's word on the issue.
[/quote]

That is merely the religion they follow.  Just as Jews and Catholics and Protestants and other religious followers believe they are the "chosen people" the thing that they use to mark themselves out as different is their religious beliefs, yet once you get past that, they are people, just like me and maybe even just like you, FD.

You know what makes me laugh the most about you, FD?  If one changed the tags, you'd sound exactly like the Islamists.  They believe the most preposterous things about Christians and other religions.  Just like you.  You're their mirror-image.  "We have met the enemy and he is us..."    ;D


Quote:

[quote]You however treat Muslims as if they are automatons.

So you keep saying. You are wrong.
[/quote]

Yet your attitudes betray you, FD.  Your continued dogmatic attacks on Muslim stereotypes prove otherwise. ::)


Quote:

[quote]I wonder how many Catholics you know who are divorced/use contraception/had an abortion/etc., etc.?  They seem able to reconcile their views and actions with their beliefs, yet according to you, Muslims must obey every tenant of the Q'ran even when they are contradictory!

No Gandalf. According to Muslims they must do this. I am happy for them to abandon Islam.
[/quote]

They don't have, any more than those Catholics do, despite going against some of the central tenants of their Church's dogma.  Muslims, like everybody else, perhaps even more so, have their own interpretations of their religion, FD and that is not something you accord them, do you?


Quote:

[quote]If nothing else you sound like a replay of the criticisms I used to hear levelled at Catholics in Australia when I was a child.

Were the catholics suggesting it is OK to marry 6 year old girls?
[/quote]

If they came from Italy before 1945, they were for children of 12.  If they came from some states in the USA, yes they were.  Today, if they come from the Vatican State, they believe it's perfectly OK for children of 12 to marry.  Where is you condemnation of that, FD?  Mmmm...   ::)


Quote:

[quote]The same ridiculous claims, the same idiotic views.  Australian society recognised how foolish that was and got over that sectarian divide, I hope you'll get over yours.

And yet here you are, demanding that I criticise catholics in order to be fair to Islam.[/quote]

Are you arguing that Catholics should be given a free ride, FD?  Are you arguing about the problems of "institutionalisation" or just one religion?  Or will you duck those two questions...    ::)

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It isn't.  Religions aren't secular, ideologies are, FD.

I see English is not your strong point.


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Nope.  I wouldn't piss on Herr Hitler if he was on fire, FD.

I'm not talking about Hitler. If Nazis decided Hitler was God's messenger, would you suddenly be obligued to defend them from "unfair" criticism?


Quote:

Again, comparing apples and oranges, FD.  Tsk, tsk.

Why are they so different?

Why can't we have a section on Judaisam?
Or are you too politically correct for that Freediver?

There is no reason why we can't have a section on Judaism. I have even started a few threads about Jews myself. Did you know that they are always to blame for conflict? I wonder which way Brian would bend...

freediver wrote on Sep 15^th, 2013 at 12:43pm:

There is no reason why we can't have a section on Judaism. I have even started a few threads about Jews myself. Did you know that they are always to blame for conflict? I wonder which way Brian would bend...

I would "bend" exactly the same way I have always "bent", FD.  I would suggest that if you believe that "Jews...are always to blame for conflict," that you were being anti-Semitic, which is exactly the same as being Islamophobic, FD - based upon prejudice and bigotry.   Which way do you, "bend"?  Are, "Jews...are always to blame for conflict?" 

Unlike many Australians who pay lip-service at best to the concept of the "fair go", I actually try and apply it.  What about you, FD?  I haven't seen much evidence of that in your attitudes towards Muslims...   ::)

Quote:

I would "bend" exactly the same way I have always "bent", FD.  I would suggest that if you believe that "Jews...are always to blame for conflict," that you were being anti-Semitic, which is exactly the same as being Islamophobic, FD - based upon prejudice and bigotry.

But if a Muslim said it you would pretend it never happened, right? Because Muslims are above the Jews on your list of people to apologise for?

freediver wrote on Sep 15^th, 2013 at 12:31pm:

Quote: It isn't.  Religions aren't secular, ideologies are, FD. I see English is not your strong point.

Ho, ho.  Keep trying, FD.   ;D


Quote:

[quote]Nope.  I wouldn't piss on Herr Hitler if he was on fire, FD.

I'm not talking about Hitler. If Nazis decided Hitler was God's messenger, would you suddenly be obligued to defend them from "unfair" criticism?
[/quote]

Nope.  I am obliged to defend no one, FD.  I defend those who I feel an injustice is being done.  You, OTOH, appear to enjoy inflicting injustices on others for some reason.   ::)


Quote:

[quote]Again, comparing apples and oranges, FD.  Tsk, tsk.

Why are they so different?[/quote]


As far as I can tell, Mohammed did nothing out of the ordinary compared to the standards of the day, FD.  You however want to compare his actions of modern morality.  Not very intelligent that, now is it?   ::)

freediver wrote on Sep 15^th, 2013 at 1:24pm:

Quote: I would "bend" exactly the same way I have always "bent", FD.  I would suggest that if you believe that "Jews...are always to blame for conflict," that you were being anti-Semitic, which is exactly the same as being Islamophobic, FD - based upon prejudice and bigotry. But if a Muslim said it you would pretend it never happened, right? Because Muslims are above the Jews on your list of people to apologise for?

Got it wrong, all deserve to be treated fairly, FD.   Do you think some to be treated unfairly merely through guilt by association?

Quote:

You however want to compare his actions of modern morality.  Not very intelligent that, now is it?

It's what Muslims do all the time. Apparently Muhammed still has the moral high ground.


Quote:

You, OTOH, appear to enjoy inflicting injustices on others for some reason.

By injustice, you mean saying mean things?

freediver wrote on Sep 15^th, 2013 at 1:43pm:

Quote: You however want to compare his actions of modern morality.  Not very intelligent that, now is it? It's what Muslims do all the time. Apparently Muhammed still has the moral high ground.

Some or all Muslims, FD?  See what I mean about stereotyping?   ::)


Quote:

[quote]You, OTOH, appear to enjoy inflicting injustices on others for some reason.

By injustice, you mean saying mean things?[/quote]

I mean by condemning them all because of the actions of a few.   ::)

Do you think all Muslims do these things?  YES/NO

Your language indicates you do IMO.

freediver wrote on Sep 15^th, 2013 at 12:43pm:

...Did you know that they are always to blame for conflict?...

So you've studied at the Mel Gibson School of International Politics then?


So when can we see our Judaism forum up and running?

True Colours wrote on Sep 15^th, 2013 at 12:40pm:

Why can't we have a section on Judaisam? Or are you too politically correct for that Freediver?

wtf!?
Islam today is equivalent to fascism.

Judaism is merely philosophy at most, theology, not IDEOLOGY - where women are repressed, people are killed in the name of some pedophile.

Seriously, I don't know of many Jewish who would follow religion so blindly these days, most Jews (that I know) are interested in science, innovation, technology, and at most theology: but not on a extremist level. they do not stone to death anymore, there is nothing radical about the majority of Jewish, which you can not say about majority of muslims.
Something like comparing dingo's vs Labradors: most dingoes are vicious and dangerous animals, where only tiny minority happens to be friendly 'by lack', and it is the other way around with Labradors: intelligent and kind, and only a tiny odd minority.
Most muslim believers are falling backwards pre-ancient egypt, it's scary and should not be avoided in Australia. We don't want it here, we don't need it here!
Fascism is not tolerated.

True Colours wrote on Sep 15^th, 2013 at 2:03pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 15th, 2013 at 12:43pm: ...Did you know that they are always to blame for conflict?... So you've studied at the Mel Gibson School of International Politics then? So when can we see our Judaism forum up and running?

As you correctly pointed out, we shouldn't really be seeing any islamic forums or islamic teachings. True.

Torpedo wrote on Sep 15^th, 2013 at 2:13pm:

True Colours wrote on Sep 15th, 2013 at 12:40pm: Why can't we have a section on Judaisam? Or are you too politically correct for that Freediver? wtf!? Islam today is equivalent to fascism.

According to whom?  You?  And your expertise on the issue is?


Quote:

Judaism is merely philosophy at most, theology, not IDEOLOGY - where women are repressed, people are killed in the name of some pedophile.

You obviously know very little about Judaism, particularly WRT to it's extreme, orthodox groups or it's political ideology of Zionism.  You also seem to have missed the long running history of Israeli oppression of the Palestinians or even the Israeli use of terrorism to further it's political ideals...


Quote:

Seriously, I don't know of many Jewish who would follow religion so blindly these days, most Jews (that I know) are interested in science, innovation, technology, and at most theology: but not on a extremist level. they do not stone to death anymore, there is nothing radical about the majority of Jewish, which you can not say about majority of muslims.

I take it that you assume the reverse about the majority of Muslims.   I wonder why do you believe that?  Do you have any evidence to back your claims or is it merely blind prejudice (again)?  ::)

my own observations is enough for me!
I don't need to listen to bullshit from your lying mouth.
Why don't you get back to your 2 wonderful kids  ;)

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 14^th, 2013 at 11:46pm:

I bend over in no direction, FD.  What I want to see is a fair deal for Muslims and their religion

You want a special deal for Islam where it cannot be criticised, you are a hypocrite who will bag all religions except Islam.

Is this the Islam you are so keen to defend with your "fair deal" nonsense, what about those who no longer believe in that bullshit barfed up by a 7th century desert bandit do they deserve a fair deal like article 18 of the Universal declaration of human rights?

Quote:

7 nations where atheism is punishable by death. All 7 establish Islam as the state religion. Pakistan,Saudi Arabia,Iran,Afghanistan,Sudan,Mauritania and the Maldives www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/10/the-seven-countries-where-the-state-can-execute-you-for-being-atheist/

Since you are so keen to defend Islam what is a fair deal for a religion that kills-imprisons people for Apostasy,blasphemy,adultery and homsexuality in 2013, do you expect people to remain silent about a religion that kills people for thought crimes?

But Baron, you are missing the point. King Leer killed someone 13 generations ago. Therefor we are not allowed to criticise Islam, or we are bigots.


Quote:

Some or all Muslims, FD?  See what I mean about stereotyping?

Show me a Muslim who does not think Muhammed is an eternal example to all mankind.

Then I will take you seriously.

freediver wrote on Sep 15^th, 2013 at 3:51pm:

Show me a Muslim who does not think Muhammed is an eternal example to all mankind.

That is not the issue. The issue is what muslims consider the 'take-home' message about Muhammad. Your conclusion is that because (in your view) Muhammad was a warmongering misogynistic rapist pedophile, that all muslims therefore condone warmongering, misogyny, rape and pedophile - and even more than that, consider those things virtues.

Your problem is that you assume muslims accept that portrayal of Muhammad. Its what we call a logical fallacy. 

Quote:

That is not the issue.

Gandalf, not every thread is about you, OK? But thanks for proving Brian wrong.


Quote:

The issue is what muslims consider the 'take-home' message about Muhammad.

That he is an eternal example for all mankind?


Quote:

Your conclusion is that because (in your view) Muhammad was a warmongering misogynistic rapist pedophile, that all muslims therefore condone warmongering, misogyny, rape and pedophile - and even more than that, consider those things virtues.

You mean like your little backflip in the child brides thread?


Quote:

Your problem is that you assume muslims accept that portrayal of Muhammad. Its what we call a logical fallacy.

Portrayal? There is only so much of the story of Muhammed you can discard before you discard Islam. How's that working out for you?

freediver wrote on Sep 15^th, 2013 at 4:01pm:

Portrayal? There is only so much of the story of Muhammed you can discard before you discard Islam. How's that working out for you?

I don't discard any of the known facts about Muhammad. I just don't draw the same conclusions that you do about them.

You attempted to discard the fact that he married a 6 year old girl (at the same time as attempting to defend it).

Firstly, I never discarded it - I merely keep an open mind to the possibility that it is wrong.

Secondly, are all hadeeth's "known facts"? No.

There has been evidence presented by scholars that the hadith that states her age as 6 and 9. Other hadeeth have been discredited by similar means. It is not blasphemy to question the historical accuracy of a given hadith - in fact muslims have been doing just that for centuries.

Ultimately though, does it matter? Even if it is true, I find no reason to suspect that Aisha didn't reach puberty at age 9 - which is not unheard of, and possibly more common then than it is today. And I don't have much time for the argument that age 9 must equal to "child" no matter what. That seems to me a pretty narrow-minded way of looking at things. Girls matured much earlier in those times, and there's no reason to think of a pubescent girl in those times as anything other than a bona fide adult that was ready for marriage.

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 15^th, 2013 at 3:44pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 14th, 2013 at 11:46pm: I bend over in no direction, FD.  What I want to see is a fair deal for Muslims and their religion You want a special deal for Islam where it cannot be criticised, you are a hypocrite who will bag all religions except Islam.

No, as usual your bigotry and prejudice colours your attitudes, BV.

I am not interested in preventing fair criticism of Islam and Muslims.  Note the key word which is missing from your lexicon, BV as it is from so many here - "fair".   If something is shown to be wrong then you should stop harping on it but you don't, you just keep repeating lies and believing the absolute worse about Muslims, automatically.  That is bigotry, BV.  Something you should be ashamed of but you aren't for some strange reason.  Perhaps you need to reorientate your moral compass - assuming you have one.   ::)


Quote:

Is this the Islam you are so keen to defend with your "fair deal" nonsense, what about those who no longer believe in that bullshit barfed up by a 7th century desert bandit do they deserve a fair deal like article 18 of the Universal declaration of human rights? [quote]7 nations where atheism is punishable by death. All 7 establish Islam as the state religion. Pakistan,Saudi Arabia,Iran,Afghanistan,Sudan,Mauritania and the Maldives www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/10/the-seven-countries-where-the-state-can-execute-you-for-being-atheist/

[/quote]

I make no excuses for those nations and their laws, BV.  I merely recognise that it is their right to create and unfortunately impose those punishments.   It is terrible but I also recognise I have no right or ability to criticise them.  I am neither a member of their religion or a citizen of any of those nations.

So, what are you doing about it except trying tar all Muslims with the same brush, even if they aren't citizens of those countries nor may well not even agree with those laws.  For you, mere guilt by association is OK.   ::)


Quote:

Since you are so keen to defend Islam what is a fair deal for a religion that kills-imprisons people for Apostasy,blasphemy,adultery and homsexuality in 2013, do you expect people to remain silent about a religion that kills people for thought crimes?

Where have I suggested that?  Please don't erect strawman arguments, BV.  Don't try and put words into my mouth that I've never uttered or typed.

Fairness is about allowing the benefit of the doubt.  Accepting that not all horror stories about Islam and Muslims are automatically true or apply to everybody.

freediver wrote on Sep 15^th, 2013 at 3:51pm:

But Baron, you are missing the point. King Leer killed someone 13 generations ago. Therefor we are not allowed to criticise Islam, or we are bigots.

I am unsure who "King Leer" is or what his relationship to Islam is, FD.  Another red herring or is this the code you use to communicate with your fellow bigots with?   ::)

You are bigots if you fit this definition:


Quote:

bigot noun a person who has very strong, unreasonable beliefs or opinions about race, religion or politics and who will not listen to or accept the opinions of anyone who disagrees

[url=http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/bigot]Source[/url]

Do you, FD?


Quote:

[quote]Some or all Muslims, FD?  See what I mean about stereotyping?

Show me a Muslim who does not think Muhammed is an eternal example to all mankind.
[/quote]

Show me a Muslim who doesn't continually question themselves and their beliefs, FD.  As has been indicated many times, Muslims do not worship Mohammed.  You seem unable to understand this for some reason or could it be that you simply refuse to accept any alternative viewpoint?   ::)


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Then I will take you seriously.

You should always take me seriously, FD.  I am the one who is standing up you and rubbing your nose in your irrational hatred of all things Islam and all Muslims.    ::)

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Ultimately though, does it matter?

If it means that even progressive Muslims such as yourself attempt to justify child brides, then yes it does.


Quote:

I am not interested in preventing fair criticism of Islam and Muslims.

As soon as you decide it is unfair, you attempt to dictate to everyone what they can and cannot debate with your ad hominems, deflections and various spineless apologetics. The only thing you won;t do is discuss the topic at hand.


Quote:

Note the key word which is missing from your lexicon, BV as it is from so many here - "fair".

You still haven't actually explained how you apply this concept to an ideology, other to insert your head into your rectum and insist that a religion is not an ideology.


Quote:

If something is shown to be wrong then you should stop harping on it but you don't, you just keep repeating lies and believing the absolute worse about Muslims, automatically.  That is bigotry, BV.

You constantly make up stories about me to avoid addressing the issue. Apparently creating elaborate fantasies to explain why I say the things I say is much easier than actually addressing what I say. Your errors have been pointed out to you countless times, but you just keep regurgitating it. I wouldn;t call it bigotry though. It is more about spineless, mindless apologetics.


Quote:

I am unsure who "King Leer" is or what his relationship to Islam is, FD.  Another red herring or is this the code you use to communicate with your fellow bigots with?

;D ;D ;D


Quote:

Show me a Muslim who doesn't continually question themselves and their beliefs, FD.

You first Brian. Show me a Muslim who does not think Muhammed is an eternal example to all mankind.


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As has been indicated many times, Muslims do not worship Mohammed.

Red herring.

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2013 at 5:39pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 15th, 2013 at 3:44pm: Brian Ross wrote on Sep 14th, 2013 at 11:46pm: I bend over in no direction, FD.  What I want to see is a fair deal for Muslims and their religion You want a special deal for Islam where it cannot be criticised, you are a hypocrite who will bag all religions except Islam. No, as usual your bigotry and prejudice colours your attitudes, BV. Your Islam tinted glasses blind you to the truth,your usual slurs against those who dont share your ignorance I am not interested in preventing fair criticism of Islam and Muslims.  Note the key word which is missing from your lexicon, BV as it is from so many here - "fair".   If something is shown to be wrong then you should stop harping on it but you don't, you just keep repeating lies and believing the absolute worse about Muslims, automatically.  That is bigotry, BV.  Something you should be ashamed of but you aren't for some strange reason.  Perhaps you need to reorientate your moral compass - assuming you have one.   ::) Please cite the lies you claim i am repeating, i posted the journalist stands by his story when your sock puppet HB claimed it had been debunked. I dont put respect for delusional ancient beliefs before respect for humanity, perhaps you should check your moral compass with what you defend. Quote: Is this the Islam you are so keen to defend with your "fair deal" nonsense, what about those who no longer believe in that bullshit barfed up by a 7th century desert bandit do they deserve a fair deal like article 18 of the Universal declaration of human rights? [quote]7 nations where atheism is punishable by death. All 7 establish Islam as the state religion. Pakistan,Saudi Arabia,Iran,Afghanistan,Sudan,Mauritania and the Maldives www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/10/the-seven-countries-where-the-state-can-execute-you-for-being-atheist/

I make no excuses for those nations and their laws, BV.  I merely recognise that it is their right to create and unfortunately impose those punishments.   It is terrible but I also recognise I have no right or ability to criticise them.  I am neither a member of their religion or a citizen of any of those nations.
Those laws are based on Islamic sharia law, of course being critical of those laws requires you to be critical of Islamic ideology which is where they originate, Islamic apologists like you never criticise Islam yet are happy to call critics bigots and Islamophobes. 8-) :)

So, what are you doing about it except trying tar all Muslims with the same brush, even if they aren't citizens of those countries nor may well not even agree with those laws.  For you, mere guilt by association is OK.   ::)
I dont tar all muslims with the same brush bit of a strawman there brian.
How do they get rid of those barbaric laws without getting accused of blasphemy Brian, did Salman Taseer get shot by his own bodyguard for opposing the blasphemy laws in Pakistan?


Quote:

Since you are so keen to defend Islam what is a fair deal for a religion that kills-imprisons people for Apostasy,blasphemy,adultery and homsexuality in 2013, do you expect people to remain silent about a religion that kills people for thought crimes?

Where have I suggested that?  Please don't erect strawman arguments, BV.  Don't try and put words into my mouth that I've never uttered or typed.
So what is fairness towards a religion that you mentioned, it it ignoring the various outdated death penalties that violate human rights as outlined in the UDHR, please enlighten us by what you meant by fairness towards a religion.

Fairness is about allowing the benefit of the doubt.  Accepting that not all horror stories about Islam and Muslims are automatically true or apply to everybody.
Are you prepared to give the church the benefit of the doubt with pedophilia claims or does your double standards only give muslims the benefit of the doubt?

[/quote]

Allah mentions hypocrites in the Quran, who are the hypocrites Brian?
www.quran.com/9/73

C'mon Freediver, if you are fair, then where is the Judaism section?

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2013 at 5:39pm:

I make no excuses for those nations and their laws, BV.  I merely recognise that it is their right to create and unfortunately impose those punishments.   It is terrible but I also recognise I have no right or ability to criticise them.  I am neither a member of their religion or a citizen of any of those nations.

Well apart from the fact that you are continually making excuses, that statement is good to know and very informative.

Tells me a lot about where you are coming from. 

Oh. and PS Brian you don't stop at not condemning nations you will also excuse on cultural grounds as well.  Tis all good in your eyes so long as it is culture. 

True Colours wrote on Sep 15^th, 2013 at 8:40pm:

C'mon Freediver, if you are fair, then where is the Judaism section?

I am discussing the matter with the Elders.

freediver wrote on Sep 15^th, 2013 at 6:26pm:

Quote: Ultimately though, does it matter? If it means that even progressive Muslims such as yourself attempt to justify child brides, then yes it does. [quote]I am not interested in preventing fair criticism of Islam and Muslims.

As soon as you decide it is unfair, you attempt to dictate to everyone what they can and cannot debate with your ad hominems, deflections and various spineless apologetics. The only thing you won;t do is discuss the topic at hand.
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Unlike you, I recognise both my limitations and my ignorance.  However, I do recognise that people and institutions deserve respect and a fair chance, FD.  When you are told you're wrong by those whom are more knowledgeable, you refuse to accept alternative viewpoints and explanations and continue on with your bigotry and Islamophobia.

If you don't like your arguments being correctly identified as such, prove to us you're not a bigot or an Islamophobe - widen your focus.  You either can't or won't from what I've observed.  That you take me to task for saying that you should give people are fair shake merely shows how prejudiced you are.   Your characterisation of anybody who says, "fair go!" as a "limp-wristed apologist" merely shows how deep your hatred of all things Islam and Muslim goes.   ::)


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[quote]Note the key word which is missing from your lexicon, BV as it is from so many here - "fair".

You still haven't actually explained how you apply this concept to an ideology, other to insert your head into your rectum and insist that a religion is not an ideology.
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I must be really annoying you with my obstinate defence of giving people and institutions a fair go, FD 'cause you're attacking me personally.   ;D

You do realise that resorting to ad hominem indicates you've lost the debate?


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[quote]If something is shown to be wrong then you should stop harping on it but you don't, you just keep repeating lies and believing the absolute worse about Muslims, automatically.  That is bigotry, BV.

You constantly make up stories about me to avoid addressing the issue.
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You're BV?  How interesting, FD. 

I don't "make up stories", I point out where your views lead.  If you don't like it, change your views, FD.  Stop writing stuff that makes me think you're a bigot and an Islamophobe.


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Apparently creating elaborate fantasies to explain why I say the things I say is much easier than actually addressing what I say.

I am addressing it, FD.  It appears you don't like the result of what you're typing.   ::)


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Your errors have been pointed out to you countless times, but you just keep regurgitating it. I wouldn;t call it bigotry though. It is more about spineless, mindless apologetics.

Yeah, sure, FD, sure, I suppose you lying to yourself helps you sleep at night.  ::)


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[quote]I am unsure who "King Leer" is or what his relationship to Islam is, FD.  Another red herring or is this the code you use to communicate with your fellow bigots with?

;D ;D ;D


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[quote]Show me a Muslim who doesn't continually question themselves and their beliefs, FD.

You first Brian. Show me a Muslim who does not think Muhammed is an eternal example to all mankind.
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I could introduce you to my best mate, Abdul.  We served together for about 6 years in the Army.  He is Turkish Cypriot by birth.  Would you like to meet him?


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[quote]As has been indicated many times, Muslims do not worship Mohammed.

Red herring.[/quote]

Nope, fact.  You appear unable to accept that for some reason, FD.  Now, what was that definition of "bigot" again?   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2013 at 9:46pm:

I could introduce you to my best mate, Abdul.  We served together for about 6 years in the Army.  He is Turkish Cypriot by birth.  Would you like to meet him?

;D ;D LOL, debate by anecdote is it?  Is this what passes for intelligent debate on this forum?   

I have two muslim mates who are absolute arseholes and who bash their wives.

Therefore, in debate by anecdote I win. 

Idiot.   ::) ::)

freediver wrote on Sep 15^th, 2013 at 8:27am:

Brian, would you mind elaborating on this concept of fairness towards an ideology? Brian Ross wrote on Sep 14th, 2013 at 11:46pm: I bend over in no direction, FD.  What I want to see is a fair deal for Muslims and their religion Would you also demand the same fairness towards Nazism, communism, fascism etc?

So, where is your criticism of those political movements, hey?  Where is your criticism of Judiasm, Hinduism and Christianity?

Looks to me like you're the hypocrite mate!   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

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Unlike you, I recognise both my limitations and my ignorance.

;D ;D ;D


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However, I do recognise that people and institutions deserve respect and a fair chance, FD.

Are you saying that Shariah law deserves respect?


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If you don't like your arguments being correctly identified as such, prove to us you're not a bigot or an Islamophobe - widen your focus.  You either can't or won't from what I've observed.

That's because your focus is too narrow. The only time I see you is here on the Islam board whinging that I only post here on the Islam board. You seem oblivious to this rather obvious limitation. You even build entire arguments around your blinkered ignorance - that your complete lack of awareness of other discussions I participate in proves that they don't exist.


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Your characterisation of anybody who says, "fair go!" as a "limp-wristed apologist" merely shows how deep your hatred of all things Islam and Muslim goes.

No Brian. Not anyone. Just the limp-wristed apologists.


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You do realise that resorting to ad hominem indicates you've lost the debate?

So explain why you think religion is not ideology then. Why does a religion about slaughtering Jews deserve our respect while an ideology about slaughtering Jews does not?


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I don't "make up stories", I point out where your views lead.

Do you have any concept of how idiotic this sounds? Or are you completely oblivious to your own limitations?

In your imagination. In other words, you do not address anything I actually say. You only address the crap you make up.


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I could introduce you to my best mate, Abdul.  We served together for about 6 years in the Army.  He is Turkish Cypriot by birth.  Would you like to meet him?

No thanks. Please ask him the following questions:

1) Are you a Muslim?
2) Do you think Muhammed is an example to follow?

Given your absurd insistence on dreaming up "where my views lead" and substituting that for what I actually think, I can only guess how much of your imagination you have projected onto Abdul.

freediver wrote on Sep 15^th, 2013 at 12:43pm:

There is no reason why we can't have a section on Judaism.

OK. So where is it?

The Judaism section is still missing in action it appears.

I'd suggest we either have a general section on religion - to cover all religions or we have a section for each major religion.

We won't though, 'cause FD thinks only Muslims deserve special consideration for criticism.  He is a bigot.   ;D ;D ;D