Quote:

Legislation forcing local authorities to fluoridate their drinking water has been introduced to the NSW parliament amid condemnation of the "anti-fluoridation circus".

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2013/09/12/11/43/nsw-bill-targets-anti-fluoride-circus


Apparently, NSW government doesn't quite understand the scope of the internet -- doesn't understand that Aussies can at the click of a mouse access information from the wider world

So here's the 'anti-fluoridation circus' the NSW Premier Baruch the Blessed O'Barrell refers to

------------ The CIRCUS is ISRAEL and ITS Legislation -------


Oooops, Baruch.  You just called Israel a 'circus'

and you've done so on the back of your demanding far more punitive sentences for those who 'offend'


Here we go, Baruch:


Quote:

ISRAEL BANS FLUORIDE AUGUST 2013 Taking a major step toward protecting the health of its citizens, the Supreme Court of Israel has ruled that the nation will stop fluoridating its water supplies. When the new law goes into effect, in summer of 2014, no community in Israel will be permitted to fluoridate water. On November 12, 2012, Izun Hozer Association for Dissemination of Health Education and Yaacov Gurman petitioned Israel’s highest court demanding that water fluoridation come to a halt due to not only potential health concerns, but also because fluoride provides virtually no benefit. In April 2013, the Minister of Health, Yael German, created a new regulation removing mandatory water fluoridation (NS). Interestingly, ruling not only puts an end to not just mandatory fluoridation in Israel, but all fluoridation — mandatory or voluntary. Here’s a translation of the court ruling. In the article, "Israel to Stop Adding Fluoride to Water Supplies in 2014 Due to Health Concerns," Paul Connett, PhD, (Fluoride Action Network (FAN)) writes: "Zealous fluoridation promoters try to convince the American public that 'everyone drinks fluoridated water.' But the opposite is true. An overwhelming number of countries do not fluoridate, including 97% of the European population. In fact, over half the people in the world drinking fluoridated water live in the US. We are the odd ones out. Fluoridation is an outdated, unscientific, failed public health blunder. What I find remarkable here is that Health Minister German has been able to escape the unscientific belief system on fluoridation that traps so many public health bureaucracies in fluoridated countries." Among other things, fluoride is linked with decreased thyroid and kidney function, infertility, lowered intelligence, impaired bone strength, heart disease and elevated cancer risk. Did you know? “It is apparent that fluorides have the ability to interfere with the functions of the brain.” “The possibility has been raised by studies in China that fluoride can lower intellectual abilities.” “Fluoride is an endocrine disruptor.” “Several lines of information indicate an effect of fluoride exposure on thyroid function.” “Sufficient fluoride exposure appears to . . . increase the severity of some types of diabetes.” “The relationship between fertility and fluoride requires additional study.” “Further research on a possible effect of fluoride on bladder cancer risk should be conducted.” “These changes have a bearing on the possibility that fluorides act to increase the Alzheimer's disease" Source: National Research Council. (2006). Fluoride in Drinking Water: A Scientific Review of EPA’s Standards. National Academies Press, Washington D.C.

Quote:

Israel Stopping Water Fluoridation Posted on August 18, 2013 by Yohanan http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2013/08/13/israel-outlaws-water-fluoridation/ By: Douglas Main, Staff Writer Israel’s Supreme Court has ruled that water fluoridation in the country must end by 2014, according to news reports. This landmark decision goes even further than legislation by the health minister Yael German earlier in the year that would have ended mandatory fluoridation nationwide, reports the Irish publication Hot Press. Israel is one of the few countries that widely fluoridates, besides the United States, Canada, Ireland, New Zealand and Australia. Fluoridation, the addition of fluoride to public drinking water supplies to reduce cavities, is the subject of intense controversy, especially outside of the United States. But opposition to the practice, on the grounds that fluoride has adverse effects on the thyroid, brain and bones, and is an unethical form of mass-medication, appears to be growing. Israel’s decision to ban fluoridation follows a vote to preclude the practice in Portland, Ore., and Wichita, Kan. It was also recently overturned in Hamilton, the fourth most populous city in New Zealand

Now compare Israel's decision to PROTECT its citizens from fluoride

with the CRAP in this article

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2013/09/12/11/43/nsw-bill-targets-anti-fluoride-circus


Who loves you, babies ?

Who will FORCE toxic fluoride down your neck ?


Answer:  The NSW government

Don't be silly.  Fluoridation provides good public health outcomes.

Ranting in capital letters and quoting nut bags does not change this.  It only makes you look like a dill.

rabbitoh07 wrote on Sep 12^th, 2013 at 12:58pm:

Don't be silly.  Fluoridation provides good public health outcomes. Ranting in capital letters and quoting nut bags does not change this.  It only makes you look like a dill.

Really ?

So Israeli scientists and the Israeli government are wrong, in your opinion ?

And your qualifications are .............. ?


The Israeli government has detailed the dangers to health posed by fluoride

But you know better than the Israeli government ?

Apparently you believe you do and you've said so in public

Now it's up to you to contact the Israeli government and tell them they're 'silly' --- and up to you to tell the Israeli government that in YOUR opinion, 'fluoride has health benefits'

Please do be sure to post the Israeli government's response

And let us know if you are one of those who've had reverse osmosis fitted through your house to make sure fluoride never gets into YOUR body, the way ex Labor Premier of Queensland had reverse osmosis in her home to protect HER family from the heh heh 'health benefits of fluoride'

.... the SAME fluoride which is responsible for

* brain damage

* bone and other cancers

* obesity

* endocrine damage/destruction

etc. etc.

because gee -- I'm not all that confident you know the first thing about the dangers of toxic fluoride which the Israeli government claims has NO health benefits to teeth or anything else


So you lap up fluoride, go for it

But do be sure to let us know what Israel has to say about your claims

"Israel to Stop Adding Fluoride to Water Supplies in 2014 Due to Health Concerns

Israel soon to ban "the most damaging environmental pollutant of the cold war"

Israel bans fluoridation of drinking water

Aug 26, 2013 - Taking a major step toward protecting the health of its citizens, the Supreme Court of Israel has ruled that the nation will stop fluoridating its water

Israel Joins Most of the World In Banning Water Fluoridation

Israel Outlaws Water Fluoridation

The Israeli Supreme Court ruled to ban all water fluoridation as of 2014.

Israel Bans Fluoridation: Aug 15, 2013 - Fluoridation “an outdated, unscientific, failed public health blunder”. Fluoridation is one of the greatest frauds of the 20th century

Aug 15, 2013
The Israeli supreme court has banned the use of fluoride in the drinking water for the country of Israel

Israel bans fluoridation of drinking water.  Taking a major step toward protecting the health of its citizens, the Supreme Court of Israel has ruled that the nation will stop fluoridating its water

Fluoridation of the water supply in Israel is to end by 2014, following a landmark decision by the country's highest judicial authority

Fluoride No More - Israel Bans Fluoride

Citing health concerns, the Supreme Court of Israel has ruled that the nation will ban fluoride by 2014

Fluoride is known to cause bone cancers, decrease brain activity, and reduce motivation

In a landmark decision, the Supreme Court in Israel has ruled that all public water fluoridation in the state of Israel must cease by 2014

Israel to Completely Stop Water Fluoridation By 2014

Israel Court Rules To Stop Water Fluoridation in 2014, Citing Health Concerns. It seems that almost the entire world is now realizing the health consequences of poisoning the water supply with fluoride. Most developed nations, including all of Japan and 97% of western Europe, do not fluoridate their water. Israel will now be added to that list in 2014. This begs the question as to when the west will wake up from their unscientific beliefs and embrace the irrefutable evidence that ingestion of fluoride is of no benefit and actually a detriment to human health.

Anti-fluoridation sites are based on false premises. Try to find  one single sane practising dentist who disagrees with it.

Fluoride causes serious health problems

In 2006, a study published in The Lancet identified fluoride as "an emerging neurotoxic substance" that causes severe brain damage.

The National Research Council (NRC) wrote that "it is apparent that fluorides have the ability to interfere with the functions of the brain and the body by direct and indirect means."

About a month later, another study published in Environmental Health Perspectives found a definitive link between fluoride intake and reduce IQ levels, indicating once again that fluoride intake causes cognitive damage.

At Harvard University, researchers identified a link between fluoride and bone cancer. Published 14 years after it began, the study found that the highest rates of osteosarcoma, a fatal form of bone cancer, were occurring most in populations drinking fluoridated water. The findings confirmed those of a prior government study back in 1990 that involved fluoride-treated rats.

Kidney disease is another hallmark of fluoride poisoning. Multiple animal studies have found that fluoride levels as low as 1 part per million (ppm) -- which is the amount added to most fluoridated water systems -- cause kidney damage. And a Chinese study found that children exposed to slightly higher fluoride levels had biological markers in their blood indicative of kidney damage.

The NRC has also found that fluoride impairs proper thyroid function and debilitates the endocrine system. Up until the 1970s, fluoride was used in Europe as a thyroid-suppressing medication because it lowers thyroid function. Many experts believe that widespread hypothyroidism today is a result of overexposure to fluoride.

Since fluoride is present in most municipal water supplies in North America, it is absurd to even suggest that parents avoid giving it to their young children. How are parents supposed to avoid it unless they install a whole-house reverse osmosis water filtration system? And even if families install such a system, fluoride is found in all sorts of food and beverages, not to mention that it is absorbed through the skin every time people wash their hands with or take a shower in fluoridated water. Perhaps these are some of the reasons why the ADA has said nothing about the issue despite the findings.

There simply is no legitimate reason to fluoridate water. Doing so forcibly medicates an entire population with a carcinogenic, chemical drug. There really is no effective way to avoid it entirely, and nobody really knows how much is ingested or absorbed on a daily basis because exposure is too widespread to calculate. But political pressure and bad science have continued to justify water fluoridation in most major cities, despite growing mountains of evidence showing its dangers.

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/030123_fluoride_babies.html#ixzz2ee81Wcew

muso wrote on Sep 12^th, 2013 at 1:41pm:

Anti-fluoridation sites are based on false premises. Try to find  one single sane practising dentist who disagrees with it.

You're clearly unaware/ignorant of the growing number of dentists who testify that fluoride provides NO benefit and is a serious health risk

And I think I'll put my money on Israel and its concern for its citizens rather than on your opinion.  But please, go lap up as much fluoride as you can and feed it to your kids

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation_in_Australia

NSW has had fluoridation since 1956?  :-?


Quote:

New South Wales[edit source | editbeta]Approximately 95% of the population has access to fluoridated water (Sep 2011). Fluoridation commenced in New South Wales with Yass in 1956,[16] with Sydney fluoridating in 1968.[3] The use of fluoride is regulated by the Fluoridation of Public Water Supplies Act 1957,[17] and the Fluoridation of Public Water Supplies Regulation 2007.[18]

Quote:

In fact, even the United States government has called for lower levels of water fluoridation following a study published in Environmental Health Perspectives, which found that increased fluoride consumption led to decreased IQ in children. Sodium fluoride, the voyage from rat poison to toothpaste In fact, the safety precautions regarding sodium fluoride are quite telling themselves: Fluoride Risk and Safety Phrases. R25 – Toxic if swallowed. R32 – Contact with acid liberates very toxic gas. R36/38 – Irritating to skin and eyes. S1/2 – Keep locked up and out of reach of children. S22 – Do not breathe dust. S36 – Wear suitable protective clothing. S45 – In case of accident or if you feel unwell, seek medical advice immediately (show the label whenever possible.) (even more toxic when ingested/digested) More recently, many practicing dentists have admitted that water fluoridation is a health risk, and should be stopped The United States government finally acknowledged the harmful effects that fluoride has on the body, and recommends that water fluoridation levels be decreased nationwide. Read more: http://naturalsociety.com/government-calls-for-lower-fluoride-levels-admits-it-harms-children Water fluoridation has been in effect in the United States for over 65 years. The U.S. government began putting fluoride in the public water supply claiming that it would prevent tooth decay. Over the years, thanks to various studies and public officials speaking out,  the negative effects of fluoride have finally come to light. The United States government, prior to today, denied the link between increased fluoride levels and disease. The game changer, however, was the major study out of the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences. The study, published in Environmental Health Perspectives, found that increased fluoride consumption led to decreased IQ in children. Belgium has even stopped selling fluoride supplements in 2002 due to fluoride causing physical and neurological harm while at the same time providing little to no benefit to teeth Breaking: Fluoride Linked to #1 Cause of Death in New Research Groundbreaking new research has linked sodium fluoride to cardiovascular disease, the leading cause of death worldwide. Researchers found that fluoride consumption directly stimulates the hardening of your arteries, a condition known as atherosclerosis that is highly correlated with the #1 killer. Sodium fluoride is currently added to the water supply of many cities worldwide, despite extreme opposition from health professionals and previous studies linking it to decreased IQ and infertility. In their research, scientists examined the relationship between fluoride intake and the hardening (calcification) of the arteries. Studying more than 60 patients, the researchers found a significant correlation between fluoride consumption and the calcification of your arteries. Published in the January edition of the journal Nuclear Medicine Communications, the research highlights the fact that mass fluoride exposure may be to blame for the cardiovascular disease epidemic that takes more lives each year than cancer. In 2008, cardiovascular killed 17 million people

Read more: http://naturalsociety.com/breaking-fluoride-linked-to-1-cause-of-death-in-new-research/#ixzz2eeBmXb1Z
Follow us: @naturalsociety on Twitter | NaturalSociety on Facebook

Swagman wrote on Sep 12^th, 2013 at 1:46pm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation_in_Australia NSW has had fluoridation since 1956?  :-? Quote: New South Wales[edit source | editbeta]Approximately 95% of the population has access to fluoridated water (Sep 2011). Fluoridation commenced in New South Wales with Yass in 1956,[16] with Sydney fluoridating in 1968.[3] The use of fluoride is regulated by the Fluoridation of Public Water Supplies Act 1957,[17] and the Fluoridation of Public Water Supplies Regulation 2007.[18]

It figures

The US introduced fluoride into its citizens' water supply 65 years ago, making that what .... 1948 ?

Would have taken them a few years to roll it out and sell it to the people

Then sold (imposed) it on the rest of us.  So 1956 for Australia seems about right


Israel's breaking all speed records to get fluoride OUT of its own water supply

No ifs or buts.  Israelis who for some reason want to add fluoride to their personal water supply, be it well or other, are prohibited from doing so with this new Israeli government legislation.  Israelis who bought the 'fluoride is good' lie and who continue to buy it will be breaking Israeli law if they put fluoride in their own water -- that's how seriously the Israeli health depts. and government, scientists etc. are taking this.  NO fluoride in Israeli water -- and they're only giving themselves a year at the outside to get rid of fluoride completely


It's a kick in the backside for sell-out dentists worldwide. Their lies, intentional or Paid for, are out for all to see now

Generations of people in this and other countries have already had a lifetime's fluoride poison in their bodies.  It will kill a lot of us -- most of us most probably, considering fluoride attacks virtually every organ (and the skeleton) in the body

Yet the NSW govt. (which bows daily in the direction of Israel) has raised this Bill to make fluoride mandatory within all NSW water supplies, even overriding councils who've banned it or are in the process of doing so


So you look at the health problems caused by fluoride

You look at Israel and the rest of the world who've banned it

Then you ask yourself why the NSW govt. undertook to make fluoride mandatory throughout NSW all of a sudden and fast on the heels of Israel's ban on it

get yourself one of these little beauties and make sure you don't drink your own bath water

---

rabbitoh07 wrote on Sep 12^th, 2013 at 12:58pm:

Don't be silly.  Fluoridation provides good public health outcomes. Ranting in capital letters and quoting nut bags does not change this.  It only makes you look like a dill.

Fluoride is meant to soak into the teeth to be effective.
They specifically say do not ingest toothpaste for a reason.
It's one of the most toxic things you can put into your body.
It does no good floating around your stomach.

If you have Hypothryoidism which I'm sure most of the population has by now but doesn't know it. The doctors will explicitly say cut out all fluoride. Naturapaths also say cut out all fluoride.

Damage to your Thyroid according to western medicine is irreversible, so why then would you want to risk something so important?
The studies on how it dumbs people down and effects your fertility is also alarming.

Why should we be forced to ingest a chemical against our own will? 
The only thing we truly own in this world is our bodies. If we can't decide what we put in it, then are we truly free?

PZ547 wrote on Sep 12^th, 2013 at 1:18pm:

So Israeli scientists and the Israeli government are wrong, in your opinion ?

Well as we know SCIENISTS will say anything to ensure their funding.
You don't believe 99% of the WORLDS Science fraternity why would you believe a handful of the deceivers, foreign ones at that?

PZ547 wrote on Sep 12^th, 2013 at 1:41pm:

Fluoride causes serious health problems

Yes, sites like the one you cut and pasted from.  The Lancet Study was an elaborate hoax led by antifluoridation mobs that resulted in the Doctor in question being suspended.

I could go through the others, but they are similarly false.

Chimp_Logic wrote on Sep 12^th, 2013 at 2:09pm:

get yourself one of these little beauties and make sure you don't drink your own bath water

Might have known you'd fall for that chimp. So how does the little beauty work? hmmmm ?

Vuk11 wrote on Sep 12^th, 2013 at 2:10pm:

Why should we be forced to ingest a chemical against our own will?

You mean like Chlorine? Are you against chlorination too?

muso wrote on Sep 12^th, 2013 at 2:30pm:

Vuk11 wrote on Sep 12th, 2013 at 2:10pm: Why should we be forced to ingest a chemical against our own will?  You mean like Chlorine? Are you against chlorination too?

Muso -- if you're in favour of fluoride or any one of the toxins added to public water supplies -- and if you're in favour of the entire toxic cocktail known these days as 'drinking water' ------------- then the discussion is no longer of concern to you

is it ?


Unless, of course, you for some reason wish others to continue drinking toxins

in which case, you'd want to persuade people to ignore prestigious medical bibles such as The Lancet when they warn against fluoride

and you'd pooh-pooh the Israeli and numerous other governments' decisions to protect their population against fluoride


So -- if you are happy to consume fluoride

---- if you are happy for your kids to consume fluoride

--- if you think it's great


WHY are you so insistent that people listen to you -- instead of tens of thousands of physicians, dentists, scientists, researchers, government health bodies and governments themselves ?

I'm against the chemical tampering of water in anyway.
No matter how beneficial, it should remain as pure as possible. It is the most important thing we ingest.

Though I haven't heard any arguments against water chlorination, as it actually does remove diseases. Fluoride on the other hand, people are still debating whether it has positive effects or not and also on the negative effects of ingestion.

The jury is still out on fluoride.
It is not out for chlorination, though I'm not saying I wouldn't consider it if someone were to show me evidence against it.

.

So let's take a look at Israel as a way of gauging if it's careless about its own safety and security

Vanunu was imprisoned for many years for exposing Dimona, Israel's secret nuclear facility

Israel hasn't stopped for a second since 1948 as far as increasing its territories is concerned

Israel looks after Number One, first, second, third

Israel ignores the United Nations and does just as it pleases

Isreal ejects blacks, muslims and anyone else it doesn't like or want

Israelis speak plainly against refugees, asylum seekers, migrants.  Israelis say, 'Get out !'.  And Israeli politicians state outright they don't want jews involved in any way with non-jews, because jews want to preserve their homogeneity.  No concessions to politically correct speech in Israel  (in fact, I should move there and feel at home)

Israel has the world by the nose.  All politicians in all governments, worldwide, go out of their way to brown nose Israel


So when Israel puts something on the Urgent list --- such as banning fluoride entirely within the space of less than a year from the announcement -- I listen.  Makes sense to listen.  Israel after all, looks after Israel

But for those who don't believe Israel is reliable in its decision making -- you might listen to, for example, Sir David Attenborough when he states, with one foot in the grave and nothing much to fear, that 'humans are no longer evolving.  We're going backwards'

Or, those who have no faith in Israel or Sir David, or tens of thousands of researchers, doctors, dentists, scientists, etc. when they state fluoride to be a dangerous toxin with no health advantages, might want to peruse the primary-school exams set for kids in the US (or even here in Oz) 100 or even 50 years ago

Then, remembering that most of those kids attended school a few hours a day, a couple of times a week after getting up at 3 a.m. to milk the cows, toss the hay, collect the eggs, draw water from the well AND walk five or so miles to school (and back) -- those who choose to ignore Israel and most of the world's governments who've banned fluoride ... might want to try those primary school exams of a hundred years ago

and I'll bet they will emerge from that exercise with a new appreciation of just how dumb they are compared with overworked, overtired farm kids aged from say, 8 years old to maybe 10 years old

Those kids emerge as Einsteins compared with the average university students of today

Why?  Ask yourselves why

Then refer to government and science's warnings that in amongst ALL the serious health dangers of fluoride ---- it also damages the brain and makes people stupid


Ok.  So now most adults in the Western world acknowledge that they've been rendered stupid by fluoride

What they have to decide at that point is ---- do you want your kids to be stupid too ?

If so, keep flushing fluoride through their systems.  Ignore the warnings.  Switch on Dancing with the Stars and Big Brother and forget it

After all, the NSW government already believes you're all too stupid to care that they're legislating to make fluoride -- the Stupid Supplement -- mandatory

Yes, you've definitely read all the propaganda.

Vuk11 wrote on Sep 12^th, 2013 at 2:40pm:

I'm against the chemical tampering of water in anyway. No matter how beneficial, it should remain as pure as possible. It is the most important thing we ingest. Though I haven't heard any arguments against water chlorination, as it actually does remove diseases. Fluoride on the other hand, people are still debating whether it has positive effects or not and also on the negative effects of ingestion. The jury is still out on fluoride. It is not out for chlorination, though I'm not saying I wouldn't consider it if someone were to show me evidence against it.

Fluoridation has been demonstrated time and time again to reduce caries.

Surprisingly there is slightly more risk of colon cancer from chlorination, but the flip side is that if you stopped chlorinating, people would drop in their thousands due to water borne diseases.

Nothing has zero risk, especially Chimp's water filter. They are an expensive gimmick. Some of them actually remove minerals from the water, which is a harmful thing to do. Most of them can't remove Fluoride. The ones that do, remove other useful minerals.

The latest gimmick is alkaline water.  It doesn't do any harm but has no benefit whatsoever.

If you want to know about Fluoride, ask your doctor or dentist.

Common Fluoride myths from Queensland Health:

http://www.health.qld.gov.au/fluoride/document/myth_fact_sheet.pdf

muso wrote on Sep 12^th, 2013 at 3:12pm:

Vuk11 wrote on Sep 12th, 2013 at 2:40pm: I'm against the chemical tampering of water in anyway. No matter how beneficial, it should remain as pure as possible. It is the most important thing we ingest. Though I haven't heard any arguments against water chlorination, as it actually does remove diseases. Fluoride on the other hand, people are still debating whether it has positive effects or not and also on the negative effects of ingestion. The jury is still out on fluoride. It is not out for chlorination, though I'm not saying I wouldn't consider it if someone were to show me evidence against it. Fluoridation has been demonstrated time and time again to reduce caries. Surprisingly there is slightly more risk of colon cancer from chlorination, but the flip side is that if you stopped chlorinating, people would drop in their thousands due to water borne diseases. Nothing has zero risk, especially Chimp's water filter. They are an expensive gimmick. Some of them actually remove minerals from the water, which is a harmful thing to do. Most of them can't remove Fluoride. The ones that do, remove other useful minerals. The latest gimmick is alkaline water.  It doesn't do any harm but has no benefit whatsoever. If you want to know about Fluoride, ask your doctor or dentist. Common Fluoride myths from Queensland Health:

I agree with what you said.

That website you posted doesn't included the effects on the thyroid. I'm assuming they agree with it?

Also I'll say it again, it's supposed to  soak into your teeth, not be ingested in your stomach/blood stream. Once fluoride is in your system, studies show that it is attracted to your bones and mainly to your pineal gland. Which is where the spiritualists freak out, because they worship the pineal gland.

Hyperthyroidism can be caused by very high levels of Fluorine, something like 1000 times what is added to drinking water. 

Google Hyperthyroidism to find out the causes.  One of the causes is Iodine deficiency. It's quite common in Switzerland.

Chimp's water filter, if it actually removes Fluoride, will also remove Iodide.

This is a wine goblet made of calcium fluoride. (Fluorspar)

---

muso wrote on Sep 12^th, 2013 at 3:39pm:

Hyperthyroidism can be caused by very high levels of Fluorine, something like 1000 times what is added to drinking water.  Google Hyperthyroidism to find out the causes.  One of the causes is Iodine deficiency. It's quite common in Switzerland. Chimp's water filter, if it actually removes Fluoride, will also remove Iodide.

Doesn't fluoride build up in the body over time? Instead of being flushed out?
Wouldn't that mean that over long term use it may approach that level?

Vuk11 wrote on Sep 12^th, 2013 at 3:43pm:

muso wrote on Sep 12th, 2013 at 3:39pm: Hyperthyroidism can be caused by very high levels of Fluorine, something like 1000 times what is added to drinking water.  Google Hyperthyroidism to find out the causes.  One of the causes is Iodine deficiency. It's quite common in Switzerland. Chimp's water filter, if it actually removes Fluoride, will also remove Iodide. Doesn't fluoride build up in the body over time? Instead of being flushed out? Wouldn't that mean that over long term use it may approach that level?

Some of it bioaccumulates as calcium fluoride, which is harmless. The point is that people who live in areas that are high in fluoride don't appear to suffer any ill effects, despite the fact that it's present at levels up to 100 times that in fluoridated water.

The best source of information is the World Health Organisation.
http://whqlibdoc.who.int/ehc/WHO_EHC_227.pdf

Thanks for the sources it must be annoying having to be a forum library for people.
I know the feeling.

Though do you happen to have a source on sodium fluoride ingested in the body becoming calcium fluoride?

So far all I've found is that the body can only remove half of the sodium fluoride, then the rest is accumulated in the pineal gland, bones and teeth. That seems to suggest that it would become a calcium but I can't find a source actually saying that it goes from one to the other.

The studies that were done in high fluoride areas were on the effects of natural fluoride, which is yes calcium fluoride not sodium. So of course we know that type s harmless.

The problem I see is, if sodium fluoride is absorbed, half flushed out and NOT turned into calcium fluoride, then that is a build up of sodium fluoride, which would be harmful over time.

Just having a quick look on wikipedia for numbers.

Water fluoridation:
A 1994 World Health Organization expert committee suggested a level of fluoride from 0.5 to 1.0 mg/L (milligrams per litre), depending on climate.

Effects on the Thyroid:
Thyroid effects in humans were associated with fluoride levels 0.05–0.13 mg/kg/day when iodine intake was adequate and 0.01–0.03 mg/kg/day when iodine intake was inadequate.[15]:263 Its mechanisms and effects on the endocrine system remain unclear.

Correct me if I'm wrong in the following please.
Just going with the minimums for thyroid and maximum recommended for water(worse case)

.05mg/kg/day would require in someone weighing say 70kg,  3.5mg in one day if they had adequate Iodine intake.

If their Iodine intake was inadequate the minimum rate is .01mg/kg/day which again for someone weighing 70kg would be .7mg in one day?

Going off say 1mg/L of water of water fluoridation. As recommended by these guys.
That would mean 3.5 litres if your Iodine is adequate and less than one litre if it is inadequate.

Doesn't that seem a little too close?
Also if it isn't transformed into calcium fluoride, then that means each day this stuff is accumulating in your body....

I'm impressed that you're actually thinking about the data. It's more than most people would do. Give me some time and I'll find some sources.

The trouble is that a lot of this comes from training that I've done with Emergency Services since 1992. I often have to Google to find what I already know to get the details spot on.

The trouble with Google is that you get so many advocacy blogs that it's not funny.

Iodine deficiency in itself causes hyperthyroidism, and by the way, it's not a serious condition. Many other salts, including thiocyanate can do the same. People who eat a lot of cassava can get hyperthyroidism because it contains cyanide, which is matabolised to thiocyanate.

muso wrote on Sep 12^th, 2013 at 4:45pm:

I'm impressed that you're actually thinking about the data. It's more than most people would do. Give me some time and I'll find some sources. The trouble is that a lot of this comes from training that I've done with Emergency Services since 1992. I often have to Google to find what I already know to get the details spot on. The trouble with Google is that you get so many advocacy blogs that it's not funny.

No problem, I look forward to it.

Dsmithy70 wrote on Sep 12^th, 2013 at 2:19pm:

PZ547 wrote on Sep 12th, 2013 at 1:18pm: So Israeli scientists and the Israeli government are wrong, in your opinion ? Well as we know SCIENISTS will say anything to ensure their funding. You don't believe 99% of the WORLDS Science fraternity why would you believe a handful of the deceivers, foreign ones at that?

Yes.  This whole fluoridation scam is obviously a scheme by greedy dentists.  They want fluoride in the water so that we get less cavities and have to see them less often and give them less money....errrr...no  wait....IT'S THE COMMUNISTS!!!!

Gay Communist Muslim terrorists are behind it.  It's so obvious.

PZ547 wrote on Sep 12^th, 2013 at 1:18pm:

rabbitoh07 wrote on Sep 12th, 2013 at 12:58pm: Don't be silly.  Fluoridation provides good public health outcomes. Ranting in capital letters and quoting nut bags does not change this.  It only makes you look like a dill. Really ? So Israeli scientists and the Israeli government are wrong, in your opinion ?

Yes.  In my opinion the Israeli government is wrong.
But not just my opinion - the opinion of the CDC, WHO, US Surgeon General, Australian Dental Association - and virtually every other public health and dental organisation on the planet:

The use of fluorides in dentistry is one of the most important ways of preventing dental caries and has the support of all peak public health and dental authorities. International bodies such as the US-based Centers for Disease Control and Prevention [CDC], the World Health Organisation [WHO] and the US Surgeon General actively promote water fluoridation. The CDC placed water fluoridation in the top ten public health achievements of the 20th Century. Similarly, scientific bodies in Australia, recognised public health groups and professional organisations support water fluoridation. Community water fluoridation continues to be the most cost-effective, equitable and safe means to provide protection from tooth decay and has been successfully utilised in Australia for over 50 years. The effect of water fluoridation is predominantly topical, with some systemic influence in children.
http://www.ada.org.au/app_cmslib/media/lib/0703/m51011_v1_fluorideuse2.pdf

The Israeli government however seems to have been influenced by some religous nutjobs who also want to ban polio vaccine:

Water Fluoridation and Vaccinations are contrary to Torah principles
  water fluoridation and vaccinations violate the Torah principles of kashrut, pekuach nefesh, and ushmartem es nafshoseichem (taking proper care of one's health) and therefore ought to be considered as treif and assur.....Water fluoridation was first put into use by the Nazis, ....
http://www.jewcology.com/content/view/Water-Fluoridation-and-Vaccinations-are-contrary-to-Torah-principles

I know that our new PM may disagree - but religous zealots probably should not influence public policy.

Anti Fluoride nuts are just that...NUTS  :D

adelcrow wrote on Sep 12^th, 2013 at 6:46pm:

Anti Fluoride nuts are just that...NUTS  :D

But Nazi Germany used fluoride in water.

Therefore - YOU are responsible for the deaths of 6 million Jews.

QED

rabbitoh07 wrote on Sep 12^th, 2013 at 6:29pm:

Gay Communist Muslim terrorists are behind it.  It's so obvious.

Not forgetting Al Gore.  ;)

Vuk11 wrote on Sep 12^th, 2013 at 4:15pm:

The problem I see is, if sodium fluoride is absorbed, half flushed out and NOT turned into calcium fluoride, then that is a build up of sodium fluoride, which would be harmful over time.

Well it all depends on the mobility. I Can't find a web reference, but the way it goes is that bones are by and large composed of hydroxyapatite, which is a hydrated calcium phosphate. Fluoride forms an insoluble calcium salt which is effectively a solid solution of calcium phosphate and calcium fluoride, often referred to as calcium fluorophosphate. It is immobilised in that form. A certain amount of fluoride is beneficial. It strengthens the bones. Too much fluoride has the opposite effect.

Fluoride is a naturally occurring substance, and levels of up to 4ppm can occur naturally, especially in dry climates where there is a significant evaporation factor.

Fluoridation levels in Australia vary significantly from 0.3ppm or less up to 0.7ppm.

http://www.adelaide.edu.au/oral-health-promotion/resources/prof/htm_files/fluoride_map.html

You can often tell the validity of a particular argument but the 'company' it keeps. the anti-flouride groups are also anti-vaccination, frequently anti-government and homeschoolers etc etc.

what you don't find is a PhD or a research group that makes the anti-fluoride claims.  ALL chemicals (including water, oxygen etc) are essentially toxic to humans in high enough quantities.

muso wrote on Sep 12^th, 2013 at 7:24pm:

Vuk11 wrote on Sep 12th, 2013 at 4:15pm: The problem I see is, if sodium fluoride is absorbed, half flushed out and NOT turned into calcium fluoride, then that is a build up of sodium fluoride, which would be harmful over time. Well it all depends on the mobility. I Can't find a web reference, but the way it goes is that bones are by and large composed of hydroxyapatite, which is a hydrated calcium phosphate. Fluoride forms an insoluble calcium salt which is effectively a solid solution of calcium phosphate and calcium fluoride, often referred to as calcium fluorophosphate. It is immobilised in that form. A certain amount of fluoride is beneficial. It strengthens the bones. Too much fluoride has the opposite effect. Fluoride is a naturally occurring substance, and levels of up to 4ppm can occur naturally, especially in dry climates where there is a significant evaporation factor. Fluoridation levels in Australia vary significantly from 0.3ppm or less up to 0.7ppm.

Aren't the naturally occurring fluoride levels calcium fluoride from the rocks? Which makes it harmless, compared to the sodium fluoride in water fluoridation?

muso wrote on Sep 12^th, 2013 at 1:41pm:

Anti-fluoridation sites are based on false premises. Try to find  one single sane practising dentist who disagrees with it.

if any dentist disagrees they lose their government

funding and accreditation..

further,

http://www.globalresearch.ca/obama-approves-raising-permissible-levels-of-nuclear-radiation-in-drinking-water-civilian-cancer-deaths-expected-to-skyrocket/5331224

Obama Approves Raising Permissible Levels of Nuclear Radiation in Drinking Water. Civilian Cancer Deaths Expected to Skyrocket

Rollback in Nuclear Radiation Cleanup

http://www.infowars.com/minnesota-lawmakers-ban-formaldehyde-in-childrens-products-but-allow-the-neurotoxic-chemical-in-vaccines-and-diet-soda/

Minnesota lawmakers ban formaldehyde in children’s products but allow the neurotoxic chemical in vaccines and diet soda



calcium fluoride good yes

sodium fluoride is more toxic than lead and

thats what is pumped into the water supply

fear not..all is well as darkness is now visible

namaste

- : )

Vuk11 wrote on Sep 12^th, 2013 at 8:39pm:

Aren't the naturally occurring fluoride levels calcium fluoride from the rocks? Which makes it harmless, compared to the sodium fluoride in water fluoridation?

Fluoride ions in water are Fluoride ions regardless of the source, but it's a good question. Calcium Fluoride (Fluorite) is extremely insoluble. It has a solubility product of       3.45E-11.  Fluoride is more soluble as a fluorosilicate, and some fluorosilicates occur naturally. Generally (this is from memory) the Fluoride is kept in solution at the ppm level as a result of slightly soluble silicates. Silica is actually an dehydrated weak acid, and it's more soluble in basic solutions (or hot solutions). 

Cryolite (Sodium Aluminium fluoride) is another naturally occurring mineral.

Fluoride is naturally present in seawater at around 1.5ppm.

I hope that explains things. As Paracelsus said,

All things are poison, and nothing is without poison; only the dose permits something not to be poisonous.

muso wrote on Sep 12^th, 2013 at 9:55pm:

Vuk11 wrote on Sep 12th, 2013 at 8:39pm: Aren't the naturally occurring fluoride levels calcium fluoride from the rocks? Which makes it harmless, compared to the sodium fluoride in water fluoridation? Fluoride ions in water are Fluoride ions regardless of the source, but it's a good question. Calcium Fluoride (Fluorite) is extremely insoluble. It has a solubility product of       3.45E-11, so Calcium Fluorite on its own would result in a Fluoride solution of the order of 0.003 ppm.  Fluoride is more soluble as a fluorosilicate, and some fluorosilicates occur naturally. Generally (this is from memory) the Fluoride is kept in solution at the ppm level as a result of slightly soluble silicates. Silica is actually an dehydrated weak acid, and it's more soluble in basic solutions (or hot solutions).  Cryolite (Sodium Aluminium fluoride) is another naturally occurring mineral. Fluoride is naturally present in seawater at around 1.5ppm. I hope that explains things. As Paracelsus said, All things are poison, and nothing is without poison; only the dose permits something not to be poisonous.

Sweet thanks for that.

That still just leaves the last two questions in layman terms.

Would the fluoride ions build up in the body over time, or does it in a way sort of turn harmless? (like you mentioned before)Because it still shows that only half is flushed out in urine the rest accumulates. So is it a dangerous accumulation?

Also does the 1994 recommendation of 0.5-1mg/L. contradict with the Thyroid problems at "0.05–0.13 mg/kg/day when iodine intake was adequate and 0.01–0.03 mg/kg/day when iodine intake was inadequate." Please refer to my quick calculation of a 70kg person.

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 12^th, 2013 at 7:32pm:

You can often tell the validity of a particular argument but the 'company' it keeps. the anti-flouride groups are also anti-vaccination, frequently anti-government and homeschoolers etc etc. what you don't find is a PhD or a research group that makes the anti-fluoride claims.  ALL chemicals (including water, oxygen etc) are essentially toxic to humans in high enough quantities.

Yes.  It is just like climate change deniers.

What you don't find is a PhD or a research group that makes the climate change denial claims.

The climate change deniers are usually the same as the anti-flouride groups, the anti-vaccination, frequently, anti-government and homeschoolers etc etc.

The "Oregon Petition" people are big fans of home schooling:
http://www.oism.org/s32p28.htm

Anti-science morons.

THe internet is a wonderful thing - but it really does give oxygen to these anti fluoride, AGW denier morons.

it_is_the_light wrote on Sep 12^th, 2013 at 9:43pm:

if any dentist disagrees they lose their government funding and accreditation.. - : )

What govt. funding do dentists receive?

John Smith wrote on Sep 12^th, 2013 at 11:50pm:

it_is_the_light wrote on Sep 12th, 2013 at 9:43pm: if any dentist disagrees they lose their government funding and accreditation.. - : ) What govt. funding do dentists receive?

THey get a brown paper bag marked "Fluoride Money" stuffed full of cash every week.

It is a legacy from Nazi Germany.

That is why they can't show their faces.

muso wrote on Sep 12^th, 2013 at 1:41pm:

Anti-fluoridation sites are based on false premises. Try to find  one single sane practising dentist who disagrees with it.

Even if it was good for your teeth - thats no reason to drink it! Do you eat toothpaste? In fact toothpaste used to have a warning on it NOT to eat it . . . .  dunno if the warnings are still there. . .

SOB

http://spotofborg.com/files/persecution5.jpg

John Smith wrote on Sep 12^th, 2013 at 11:50pm:

it_is_the_light wrote on Sep 12th, 2013 at 9:43pm: if any dentist disagrees they lose their government funding and accreditation.. - : ) What govt. funding do dentists receive?

http://www.medicareaustralia.gov.au/provider/incentives/pip/payment-formula/index.jsp

Practice Incentives Program (PIP) payments and calculations
On this page
Practice payments
Calculation of payments
Calculating the SWPE value
When payments are made
Appealing a Medicare Australia decision
PIP Guidelines
More information on the Practice Incentives Program Guidelines
Practice payments
The majority of payments made through the PIP are made to practices and focus on those aspects of general practice that contribute to quality care.
If a practice's PIP application is successful, the practice will receive its initial PIP payment in the first payment quarter after approval. The practice will receive subsequent quarterly payments, providing it continues to meet the eligibility criteria. Payments are made in February, May, August and November.
Medicare Australia will automatically calculate entitlements for payments based on information received from the practice. This means it is important to inform Medicare Australia of any changes in practice arrangements (more information is provided in Practice Changes).
Payments are made by Electronic Funds Transfer (EFT).
Practices can spend their payment as they want, though the usual taxation rules apply. The PIP payment is intended to support the practice in purchasing additional equipment, upgrading its facilities or offering additional remuneration to doctors working at the practice. If a practice chooses to use the payment as an additional source of income for its doctors, the Australian Government strongly encourages its equitable organisation to distribute among doctors working at the practice. However, the Australian Government cannot be responsible for the business arrangements of individual practices.
Incentives      Aspect or activity      Payment amount
Quality stream
Quality Prescribing      Practice participation in quality use of medicines programs endorsed by the National Prescribing Service. Paid annually in May.      $1 per SWPE
Diabetes Incentive      Sign-On Payment: one-off payment for notifying the Australian Government that the practice uses a diabetes register and recall/reminder system.      $1 per SWPE
Outcomes Payment: payment to practices that complete an annual cycle of care for a target proportion of their patients with diabetes.      $20 per HbA1c SWPE annually
Service Incentive Payment: payment for each annual cycle of care for a patient with diabetes, payable once per year per patient.      $40 per patient per annum
Cervical Screening
Incentive      Sign-on Payment: one-off payment to practices that engage with the state/territory cervical screening registers.      $0.25 per SWPE
Outcomes Payment: payment to practices where a specified proportion of women aged between 20 and 69 years have been screened in the last 30 months.      $3 per female WPE† aged between 20 and 69.
Service Incentive Payment: payment to practitioners for screening women between 20 and 69 years who have not had a cervical smear within the last four years.      $35 per patient per annum
Asthma Incentive
     Sign-on Payment: one-off payment to practices that implement a cycle of care for patients with moderate to severe asthma.      $0.25 per SWPE
Service Incentive Payment: payment to practitioners who complete an asthma cycle of care for patients with moderate to severe asthma, payable once per year per patient.      $100 per patient per annum
Indigenous Health Incentive
     Sign-on Payment: one-off payment to practices that agree to undertake specified activities to improve the provision of care to their Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander patients with a chronic disease.      $1000 per practice
Patient Registration Payment: A payment to practices for each Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander patient aged 15 years and over, registered with the practice for chronic disease management.      $250 per eligible patient per calendar year
Outcomes Payment Tier 1: Payment to practices for each registered patient for whom a target level of care is provided by the practice in a calendar year.      Tier 1: $100 per eligible patient per calendar year
Outcomes Payment Tier 2: Payment to practices for providing the majority of care for a registered patient in a calendar year.      Tier 2: $150 per eligible patient per calendar year
Capacity stream
eHealth Incentive
     The PIP eHealth Incentive has three components. Practices must meet the requirements of each of component to qualify for payments through this incentive.      $6.50 per SWPE capped at $12 500 per practice, per quarter
After Hours Incentive      Tier 1— The practice makes sure that all regular practice patients have access to 24 hour care from a GP, seven days a week, which may be through formalised cooperative arrangements and must include out of hours visits (at home, in residential aged care facilities and in hospitals), where safe and reasonable.      $2 per SWPE annually
Tier 2—Practice GPs must provide the minimum level of after hours cover (dependent on practice size) for all regular practice patients. At all other times, practice patients must have access to after hours care through formalised cooperative arrangements.
Practices with a SWPE* value of 2000 or less
Must provide their practice patients with ...

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 13^th, 2013 at 4:56am:

muso wrote on Sep 12th, 2013 at 1:41pm: Anti-fluoridation sites are based on false premises. Try to find  one single sane practising dentist who disagrees with it. Even if it was good for your teeth - thats no reason to drink it! Do you eat toothpaste? In fact toothpaste used to have a warning on it NOT to eat it . . . .  dunno if the warnings are still there. . . SOB http://spotofborg.com/files/persecution5.jpg

yes the warning is there on the outer cardboard

on the toothpaste on many brands

if you eat a whole tube of toothpaste

you will die   ... many children get sick after

eating the sweet poison described here...

http://tv.naturalnews.com/v.asp?v=42652e035a1b1baaae1f340b54694975


The Fluoride Deception exposes the truth about water fluoridation and the phosphate mining industry
(123836 views) Uploaded 2/28/2011 12:21:42 PM by HealthRanger 

The Fluoride Deception is the latest mini documentary from Mike Adams, executive director of the Consumer Wellness Center. Through the use of animation and motion graphics, it exposes the truth about where fluoride really comes from: The toxic byproducts of the phosphate mining industry!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEZ15m-D_n8

Here is the transcript of this documentary:

Fluoride. Dentists say that drinking it can protect your teeth against cavities. Cities and towns all across the world actually dump it into the water supply, hoping to indiscriminately medicate the population through their tap water faucets.

The official story on fluoride sounds wonderful: Drink the stuff, and you won't get cavities, we're told. It's a nice story. But there's another side to this story -- the side you're never told. And it starts with the astonishing but verifiable fact that nearly all the fluoride dripped into municipal water supplies isn't naturally occurring fluoride at all.

In fact, it's actually a combination of hexafluorosilicic acid and sodium silicofluoride.

These two chemical are considered highly toxic by the EPA. They're actually classified as hazardous waste and when packaged for transportation, they must be labeled as poison and handled by workers wearing industrial safety gear.

So what are hexafluorosilicic acid and sodium silicofluoride, and where do they come from?

That's the part of this story that you probably won't believe. That is, not until you check it out yourself. Because the more you look into the mythology of fluoride, the more bizarre this story becomes.

And this bizarre story begins at phosphate mining companies. Phosphate is an important mineral used in fertilizers. It's mined from natural rock deposits scattered across the world, and the phosphate rock is then refined to produce phosphoric acid. If that name sounds familiar, that's because it's one of the main ingredients in carbonated sodas such as Coke and Pepsi. Phosphoric acid is often compared to battery acid. It's a highly acidic liquid that is believed to be the primary reason why drinking sodas can result in kidney stones and a loss of bone mineral density.

Phosphate rock is also used to create fertilizers. The problem is, phosphate is often contaminated with high levels of fluoride -- as much as 40,000 parts per million, or up to 4% of the raw ore. To remove the fluoride, sulfuric acid is added to a wet slurry of phosphate and water. This causes the fluoride to vaporize, creating highly toxic gaseous compounds such as hydrogen fluoride and silicon tetrafluoride.

These toxic fluoride chemicals used to be released directly from the smokestacks of phosphate mining operations, but the nearby farms suffered devastating losses of cattle and food crops which withered away and died due to... guess what? Fluoride poisoning.

In order to stop this environmental destruction, the phosphate mining industry put in place a way to capture the toxic fluoride chemical vapors so that they wouldn't be released into the air and kill the surrounding livestock and vegetation. This was accomplished by installing "wet scrubbers" that captured the toxic fluoride chemicals, preventing them from being released into the environment and killing the plant and animal life living nearby.

It is from these wet scrubbers that toxic fluoride chemicals are now harvested. They're collected, re-packaged, shipped to your local city, then dumped into the municipal water supply. So instead of these toxic fluoride chemicals being released by the phosphate mining smokestacks, they are instead captured, and then released into the water supply of large cities where the chemicals then contaminate the water of millions of people at a time.

fluoride is one of the biggest con jobs in Australia second only to the carbon tax...

and even if you did believe the Fluoride bullsh1t adding it to our household water is the most uneconomic way of delivering it you could think of


99.9% of it goes straight down the drain and out to sea...

I have a 7 stage filtration reverse osmosis system that takes out all of those poisons for our drinking water...

I've never felt better...  :)

Do you put essential minerals back in, or do you take mineral supplements? 

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 13^th, 2013 at 4:56am:

muso wrote on Sep 12th, 2013 at 1:41pm: Anti-fluoridation sites are based on false premises. Try to find  one single sane practising dentist who disagrees with it. Even if it was good for your teeth - thats no reason to drink it! Do you eat toothpaste? In fact toothpaste used to have a warning on it NOT to eat it . . . .  dunno if the warnings are still there. . . SOB http://spotofborg.com/files/persecution5.jpg

Not a good idea to eat toothpaste, no.

Read the Paracelsus quote in a previous post. For a 16th Century physician, he was ahead of his time.

By the way, this substance (below) is being added to a lot of drinks you buy at the supermarket. Perhaps It is the Light will tell us more about how governments are trying to suppress the information about its dangers. It's called DHMO, or dihydrogen monoxide.

http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html


Quote:

A similar study conducted by U.S. researchers Patrick K. McCluskey and Matthew Kulick also found that nearly 90 percent of the citizens participating in their study were willing to sign a petition to support an outright ban on the use of Dihydrogen Monoxide in the United States.

it_is_the_light wrote on Sep 13^th, 2013 at 6:51am:

John Smith wrote Today at 12:50am:it_is_the_light wrote Yesterday at 10:43pm: if any dentist disagrees they lose their governmentfunding and accreditation..- : ) What govt. funding do dentists receive? http://www.medicareaustralia.gov.au/provider/incentives/pip/payment-formula/inde...

Because of the limit on the number of characters per post, I've had to cut your thread, but all you've done is provide a list of payments provided by medicare ... I don't know about your area, but in my area I know of no dentist that charges medicare, therefore that list you provided is meaningless .... 

now what incentives does the govt. provide?