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http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl Member Run Boards >> Environment >> The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013 http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1375596717 Message started by muso on Aug 4^th, 2013 at 4:11pm

Title: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by muso on Aug 4^th, 2013 at 4:11pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px4DqMszDDY

For the sake of some of the posters on this board, this footage is from the North Pole, and to anticipate some of your questions, I have no information at hand on the fate of Santa Claus or his elves :)

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by rabbitoh07 on Aug 4^th, 2013 at 6:15pm

And while the formation of lakes at the pole has happened before - there is no denying that the Actic icecap is decreasing rapidly:

During the first two weeks of July, ice extent declined at a rate of 132,000 square kilometers (51,000 square miles) per day. This was 61% faster than the average rate of decline over the period 1981 to 2010 of 82,000 square kilometers (32,000 square miles) per day.

http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

The earth has been warming for the past 15 years. Despite what a columnist in the Daily Mail may have written.

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by muso on Aug 4^th, 2013 at 7:16pm

I'm just hanging out for the underwater volcano or sunken nuclear subs hypotheses ;D

Go on. Give me a laugh.

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 4^th, 2013 at 10:32pm

Or we could go with the actual scientific opinion:

"Though the North Pole lake’s 15 minutes of fame focused worldwide attention on global warming’s effects on Arctic sea ice, the melting is actually part of an annual summer thaw, according to researchers who run the North Pole Environmental Observatory. “The formation of these ponds and their disappearance is part of a natural cycle,” said Axel Schweiger, head of the Applied Physics Laboratory’s Polar Science Center at the University of Washington, which helps run the observatory.

The lake, about the size of an Olympic swimming pool, started forming in mid-July, LiveScience first reported on July 23. The size and timing of the lake are typical for this time of year and location, the researchers said."

oops, forgot this bit:

"When the meltwater lake appeared in mid-July, the buoys were about 375 miles (600 kilometers) south of the geographic North Pole. Their journey from April to July put the buoys on parallel to the magnetic North Pole, which is currently west of Greenland."

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 4^th, 2013 at 10:42pm

muso wrote on Aug 4^th, 2013 at 4:11pm:

And you complain that skeptics 'cherry pick' the data???????

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by muso on Aug 5^th, 2013 at 10:01am

Quote:

oops, forgot this bit:

"When the meltwater lake appeared in mid-July, the buoys were about 375 miles (600 kilometers) south of the geographic North Pole. Their journey from April to July put the buoys on parallel to the magnetic North Pole, which is currently west of Greenland."

That close? The fact remains that methane is bubbling off from melting arctic lakes and permafrost at an increasing rate of about 2% per year.

Quote:

On the basis of 22 months of almost continuous, automated, GC/FID measurements of atmospheric CH4 at Cape Meares (45°N), we show that the concentration of CH4 is increasing at about 2% per yr (±0.5% yr−1). The data also revealed stable seasonal cycles with peak concentrations in October and minimum concentrations in July. The magnitude of the seasonal variations during these months is about ±20 ppbv from the average (∼±1.2%). If the current trend continues, the increased CH4 concentration may result in a 0.2°K to 0.4°K average increase in earth's surface temperature over the next 40 years or so (based on calculations of Wang et al. (1976)). The coupling of CH4 to tropospheric and stratospheric chemical processes is discussed.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/JC086iC10p09826/abstract;jsessionid=D276903C6082EF81D69382A0BE8E5E17.d02t04?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=true

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by muso on Aug 5^th, 2013 at 10:18am

This is the path that we're headed down:

global-warming-timeline-future.jpg (150 KB | 47 )

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by bobbythebat1 on Aug 5^th, 2013 at 11:05am

We're doomed.

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 5^th, 2013 at 12:10pm

muso wrote on Aug 5^th, 2013 at 10:18am:

This is the path that we're headed down:

Which completely ignores the existence of any form of natural variation in the Earth's climate system.

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by muso on Aug 5^th, 2013 at 1:08pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 5^th, 2013 at 12:10pm:

Which completely ignores the existence of any form of natural variation in the Earth's climate system.

Well the portion up to 2013 is actual data, so it includes natural variation. However the projection does ignore natural variation.

It demonstrates just how minor the natural temperature variations are over an approximate 200 year timescale in comparison to the projected increase due to the emission of Greenhouse Gases. Obviously if there was a major stratospheric eruption such as a super volcano, that would change everything, but we haven't had one of those for about 70 000 years.

It also ignores one or two feedbacks that are a consequence of increased emission of greenhouse gases, so it's potentially understated.

I'll tell you what, I'll superimpose the natural variation of the past on the projected figures to show how much effect it would have. Here I've used 10 year running means. The graph is indicative only.

In other words, if the natural variation of the last century is indicative of the natural variation between now and 2100, it would look something like this:

snapshot2.jpg (46 KB | 51 )

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by Winston Smith on Aug 5^th, 2013 at 2:40pm

muso wrote on Aug 4^th, 2013 at 4:11pm:

For the sake of some of the posters on this board, this footage is from the North Pole, and to anticipate some of your questions, I have no information at hand on the fate of Santa Claus or his elves :)

I heard that Santa lives in a bubble under the sea now, with all his Elves and Reindeer. Santa won't be coming down the chimney anymore, but up the S-bend of the nearest toilet.

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by Rider on Aug 5^th, 2013 at 3:43pm

Winston Smith wrote on Aug 5^th, 2013 at 2:40pm:

muso wrote on Aug 4^th, 2013 at 4:11pm:

I heard that Santa lives in a bubble under the sea now, with all his Elves and Reindeer. Santa won't be coming down the chimney anymore, but up the S-bend of the nearest toilet.

that may prove difficult, I've heard its blocked with fraudulent and failed climate science papers.... ;D

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by muso on Aug 5^th, 2013 at 4:19pm

Quote:

that may prove difficult, I've heard its blocked with fraudulent and failed climate science papers.... ;D

What on earth are you doing in Joanne Nova's bathroom?

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by Deathridesahorse on Aug 5^th, 2013 at 4:24pm

muso wrote on Aug 5^th, 2013 at 4:19pm:

Quote:

that may prove difficult, I've heard its blocked with fraudulent and failed climate science papers.... ;D

What on earth are you doing in Joanne Nova's bathroom?

Gottim!

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by rabbitoh07 on Aug 5^th, 2013 at 5:40pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 4^th, 2013 at 10:42pm:

muso wrote on Aug 4^th, 2013 at 4:11pm:

And you complain that skeptics 'cherry pick' the data???????

Muso showed us an interesting video? How is that "cherry picking' the data???????

Yes - it is acknowledged that the formation of lakes at the pole has happened before - but there is still no denying that the Actic icecap is decreasing rapidly.

It reached it's least extent on record in 2012 - and is rapidly approaching the same level in 2013:

Sea ice in the Arctic has shrunk to its smallest extent ever recorded, smashing the previous record minimum and prompting warnings of accelerated climate change.

Satellite images show that the rapid summer melt has reduced the area of frozen sea to less than 3.5 million square kilometres this week – less than half the area typically occupied four decades ago.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2012/sep/14/arctic-sea-ice-smallest-extent

During the first two weeks of July, ice extent declined at a rate of 132,000 square kilometers (51,000 square miles) per day. This was 61% faster than the average rate of decline over the period 1981 to 2010 of 82,000 square kilometers (32,000 square miles) per day.
http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

That is data.

Are you going to claim that that is "cherry picked"?

It makes the Daily Mail's columnists claim of "no warming in 15 years" seem pretty silly, doesn't it.

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by gizmo_2655 on Aug 5^th, 2013 at 5:50pm

rabbitoh07 wrote on Aug 5^th, 2013 at 5:40pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 4^th, 2013 at 10:42pm:

muso wrote on Aug 4^th, 2013 at 4:11pm:

And you complain that skeptics 'cherry pick' the data???????

Because the twit (not a pregnant goldfish, btw) who posted it on youtube, didn't include the 'other' info...

Try this one for example..
http://www.news.com.au/technology/sci-tech/earths-heartbeat-caught-by-satellite-image-animations/story-fn5fsgyc-1226689589967

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by Rider on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 11:26am

More alarmist nonsense. Who would have thought aye????????

Shameful to see this unfounded fraudulent unmitigated alarmism repeated.

Arctic Sea Ice Melt Slowdown Begins More Than One Month Early – And Absolute Dead Media Silence On Antarctica!

By P Gosselin on 3. August 2013

In the second half of June, global warming catastrophe worshippers were already salivating worse than Pavlov’s dogs when Arctic sea ice melt accelerated at a dizzying rate.

See the rest of it at http://notrickszone.com/2013/08/03/arctic-sea-ice-melt-slowdown-begins-more-than-one-month-early-and-absolute-dead-media-silence-on-antarctica/

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by Winston Smith on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 12:33pm

Rider wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 11:26am:

Don't posts by morons like this make you want climate change to be upon us much sooner than expected and with far worse consequences than predicted? When vested interests lobbyists start lawyering the very validity of science, implying the entire scientific community is involved in a conspiracy, you know something is up. I hope you live to ripe old age Rider and suffer an impoverished, diseased existence in a world where climate change destroyed humanity. That would be justice.

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by Rider on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 1:00pm

Winston Smith wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 12:33pm:

Rider wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 11:26am:

Stick to the point, if you want to refute any points made in the article please do so. If not, your personal vile is nothing but water (melted effing icecaps for all I care) off a ducks back.

Alternatively back up the op with some facts that this common ice melt is anything other than a normal seasonal garden type event, seen before and will be seen again...go on I dare you ;D ;D

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by rabbitoh07 on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 1:01pm

Rider wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 11:26am:

Why didn't you post the graph that "opinion" was based on?

Showing very clearly, that arctic ice extent in 2013, like the 6 years previous - was well below the 1979-2006 average.

Makes the Daily Mail columnist's claim of "no warming in 15 years" seem pretty silly, doesn't it

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by Winston Smith on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 1:21pm

Rider wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 1:00pm:

Winston Smith wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 12:33pm:

Rider wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 11:26am:

I was pointing out how absurd it is that greed and criminality can cause people like you to exist. I have no interest in having a sematics lawyering session with you. Climate change is a proven fact, no amount of packpedalling or cherry picking of data will change that. The only people in the world who pretend not to be worried about climate change, are people deriving money or power from the current status quo. ::)

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by rabbitoh07 on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 1:23pm

Winston Smith wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 1:21pm:

No. That is not true.

THere are also the poor, ignorant sods that believe what Bolt and Jones tell them.

They are not deriving money or power from the current status quo.
THey are just a bit thick.

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by Rider on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 2:49pm

rabbitoh07 wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 1:23pm:

Winston Smith wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 1:21pm:

No. That is not true.

THere are also the poor, ignorant sods that believe what Bolt and Jones tell them.

They are not deriving money or power from the current status quo.
THey are just a bit thick.

You could say the same (with interest) about the so called science and their army of useful idiots.

I suppose you think that all the warmists do their best work gratis.....nah, thought not, not when there is tax payers funded grants available for any scare conjured and sold to foolish governments and dribbler policy makers.

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by Winston Smith on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 3:35pm

rabbitoh07 wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 1:23pm:

Winston Smith wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 1:21pm:

No. That is not true.

THere are also the poor, ignorant sods that believe what Bolt and Jones tell them.

They are not deriving money or power from the current status quo.
THey are just a bit thick.

Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity?

Rider wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 2:49pm:

rabbitoh07 wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 1:23pm:

Winston Smith wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 1:21pm:

No. That is not true.

THere are also the poor, ignorant sods that believe what Bolt and Jones tell them.

They are not deriving money or power from the current status quo.
THey are just a bit thick.

Oh I forgot to include attention seekers who will come up with any absurdity in order to get a response. Just think that if we had access to the Prism database, how it would be possible to actually go through the entire evolutionary history of climate sceptics and empirically categorize them according to their agendas.

1. Money/Power
2. Religious Fundamentalist
3. Brainwashed/Low IQ
4. Attention Seeker
5. Fear/Mass Denial

Which category does your favourite climate sceptic fall under?(Categories are not mutually exclusive). ;D

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by Rider on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 5:41pm

Winston Smith wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 3:35pm:

rabbitoh07 wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 1:23pm:

Winston Smith wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 1:21pm:

No. That is not true.

THere are also the poor, ignorant sods that believe what Bolt and Jones tell them.

They are not deriving money or power from the current status quo.
THey are just a bit thick.

Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity?

Rider wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 2:49pm:

rabbitoh07 wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 1:23pm:

Winston Smith wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 1:21pm:

No. That is not true.

THere are also the poor, ignorant sods that believe what Bolt and Jones tell them.

They are not deriving money or power from the current status quo.
THey are just a bit thick.

wow, the alarmists are lucky to have you on their side ::)

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by rabbitoh07 on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 6:27pm

Rider wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 2:49pm:

rabbitoh07 wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 1:23pm:

Winston Smith wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 1:21pm:

No. That is not true.

THere are also the poor, ignorant sods that believe what Bolt and Jones tell them.

They are not deriving money or power from the current status quo.
THey are just a bit thick.

No, you can't say the same about science at all.

The science of AGW is supported by decades of accumulated empirical data recorded in the scientific literature.

All the deniers seem to have is a column from a tabloid journalist from Daily Mail claiming that there has been "no warming for 15 years", and endless repetition of that nonsense by shock jocks.

Big difference really.

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by rabbitoh07 on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 6:29pm

Rider wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 5:41pm:

Winston Smith wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 3:35pm:

rabbitoh07 wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 1:23pm:

Winston Smith wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 1:21pm:

No. That is not true.

THere are also the poor, ignorant sods that believe what Bolt and Jones tell them.

They are not deriving money or power from the current status quo.
THey are just a bit thick.

Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity?

Rider wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 2:49pm:

rabbitoh07 wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 1:23pm:

Winston Smith wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 1:21pm:

No. That is not true.

THere are also the poor, ignorant sods that believe what Bolt and Jones tell them.

They are not deriving money or power from the current status quo.
THey are just a bit thick.

wow, the alarmists are lucky to have you on their side ::)

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by Rider on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 8:06pm

^^ to debunk the unfounded nonsense posted by the OP of course.

(I mean, the measurements came from a buoy....it would seem pretty obvious that the snow melts regularly wouldn't it ;D ;D )

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by rabbitoh07 on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 8:45pm

Rider wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 8:06pm:

^^ to debunk the unfounded nonsense posted by the OP of course.

(I mean, the measurements came from a buoy....it would seem pretty obvious that the snow melts regularly wouldn't it ;D ;D )

We are still waiting for you to explain why you posted that silly opinion piece without posting the graph it was "based" on, which showed very clearly that arctic ice extent in 2013, like the 6 years previous - was well below the 1979-2006 average.

You called the fact that the Arctic ice cap is melting rapidly:
More alarmist nonsense. Who would have thought aye

Yet it is perfectly true - just as the silly opinion piece you posted showed - when one looked at the data that opinion piece was based on.

Do you understand anything about what you post?

Or do you just want to live in complete denial of the clear and unambiguous rapid melting of teh arctic ice cap?

Are you gong to explain why you poset that silly opinion piece? Or will you now just run away?

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by Rider on Aug 7^th, 2013 at 7:35am

rabbitoh07 wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 8:45pm:

Rider wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 8:06pm:

^^ to debunk the unfounded nonsense posted by the OP of course.

(I mean, the measurements came from a buoy....it would seem pretty obvious that the snow melts regularly wouldn't it ;D ;D )

You can wait till hell freezes over mate (another fake claim by the new religion of Climate Science ;D ).

Your stupidly attempt to clutch at irrelevancies as if they are important, and then you endeavour to railroad discussions into endless pages of nonsense is a game I'll happily leave to you.

A diversionary strategy employed to simply distract. I guess that is how the alarmist industry works after all, because your 'facts' are based on models, which are the creation of people well and truly hooked on the tax payer billions - the greatest conflict of interests ever - not even an ounce of proprietary in evidence .

You really have simply joined the cause haven't you....cults always attract the weak of mind and spirit.

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by Ajax on Aug 7^th, 2013 at 8:54am

alarmist propoganda is worth nothing.

Lakes are natural at that time of the year so stop trying to scare everyone.

last year was the worst in a while and it doesn't look like we're going to get down to that level this year.

Seriously if your going to prsent something how about all the facts.

Instead its announced as though its a first and we're all going to drown!

BTW all this melt off and no rise in sea level????

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by Rider on Aug 7^th, 2013 at 8:57am

Every day it seems a new scare is rolled out, and within a week or so, debunked....if the climate science was so good, so irrefutable, why do you warmists have to resort to these sorts of tactics???

Scientist or Activist????? Sick of seeing tax payers funding this utter nonsense - billions blown - sopping up our money is the only catastrophe on this planet.

http://notrickszone.com/2013/08/06/danish-meteorological-institute-arctic-sea-ice-now-1-7-million-square-kilometers-over-last-year/

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by Rider on Aug 13^th, 2013 at 9:42am

Retracted due to inaccuracies and borderline fraud.

Perhaps the op can do the same. What do you reckon Muso? or do you need to read it in peer reviewed scientific journalese?

Seems the global fear and frustration alarmist stand is falling into desperate times. Artic is going gang busters freezing at the moment, and not a headline in sight ::)

Title : ELIMINATION North Pole Lake

Caption : EDITORS, PHOTO EDITORS, AND PHOTO LIBRARIANS – PLEASE ELIMINATE AP PHOTO NY109 THAT WAS SENT ON SATURDAY, JULY 27, 2013. THE CAPTION INACCURATELY STATED THAT ‘THE SHALLOW MELTWATER LAKE IS OCCURRING DUE TO AN UNUSUALLY WARM PERIOD.’ IN FACT, THE WATER ACCUMULATES IN THIS WAY EVERY SUMMER. IN ADDITION, THE IMAGES DO NOT NECESSARILY SHOW CONDITIONS AT THE NORTH POLE, BECAUSE THE WEATHER BUOY CARRYING THE CAMERA USED BY THE NORTH POLE ENVIRONMENTAL OBSERVATORY HAS DRIFTED HUNDREDS OF MILES FROM ITS ORIGINAL POSITION, WHICH WAS A FEW DOZEN MILES FROM THE POLE- This frame grab provided by NOAA shows images from the wide-angle camera trained on a weather buoy maintained by the North Pole Environmental Observatory at the North Pole. The top image is a June 7, 2013 frame grab. The bottom image is a July 25, 2013 frame grab. (AP Photo/NOAA)

Source: http://foto.agerpres.ro/index.php?i=7147048

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by muso on Aug 13^th, 2013 at 9:04pm

Ajax wrote on Aug 7^th, 2013 at 8:54am:

BTW all this melt off and no rise in sea level????

Ajax. Try this experiment at home. Put a large lump of ice in a glass of water and mark the level of the water. Let the ice melt and check the level again. (You can even try it with salty water and a fresh water ice cube. It won't make that much difference.)

Explain the results and stop embarrassing yourself with every post.

::)

Does melting sea ice cause sea level changes?
(What does Watts say?)

Does melting continental ice sheet cause sea level change?

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by Rider on Aug 14^th, 2013 at 8:17am

Slowest Arctic Melt On Record

Posted on August 10, 2013 by stevengoddard

The past two weeks normally produce the fastest Arctic ice loss of the year, about 750,000 km². This year, less than half that much ice melted.

http://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2013/08/10/slowest-arctic-melt-on-record/

Maybe Muso can have a look at some of these facts - or do you need to have your literature 'pal reviewed' to make it fit your warming scare mongering ::)

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by muso on Aug 14^th, 2013 at 8:28am

That's called cherry picking. A whole two weeks. Wow! We are not worthy.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story. It's still well below the 1981-2010 average.

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by Rider on Aug 14^th, 2013 at 9:03am

muso wrote on Aug 14^th, 2013 at 8:28am:

That's called cherry picking. A whole two weeks. Wow! We are not worthy.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story. It's still well below the 1981-2010 average.

and 1981-2010 isn't cherry picking ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I made no reference to any long term natural variations, so the time frame mentioned is irrelevant. Or as you like to point out, a strawman argument. Now was that a ~~peer~~ pal reviewed strawman or not???

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by FriYAY on Aug 14^th, 2013 at 10:03am

Perhaps they should stop sending ice breaking tourist ships to the Nth Pole? :-?

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by muso on Aug 14^th, 2013 at 12:10pm

Rider wrote on Aug 14^th, 2013 at 9:03am:

I made no reference to any long term natural variations, so the time frame mentioned is irrelevant.

Exactly. That's the precise problem. You should have been looking at long term trends in sea ice instead of focusing on a two week period.

I don't think I made any particular arguments in the opening post. Read it again. It was just an interesting video intended to initiate discussion. Which part of the OP did you think was alarmist propaganda? Maybe you thought the part about Santa Claus was alarmist. Is that it?

The main issue here is long term reduction in sea ice.

Quote:

The past two weeks normally produce the fastest Arctic ice loss of the year, about 750,000 km².

Have a guess which year he's referring to. Hint: There is nothing normal about it.

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by Ajax on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 1:03pm

muso wrote on Aug 13^th, 2013 at 9:04pm:

Ajax wrote on Aug 7^th, 2013 at 8:54am:

BTW all this melt off and no rise in sea level????

You really are a checky dude.

How much of an ice burg is underwater.........

What is it 1/9 or 7/8......................whatever

The fact remains that most of the ice burg is underwater and we only see a very small percentage on top of the water.

When water freezes it expands.........

The density of water is approx. 1000 litres/m3

or one litre of water is equal to one kilogram.

The density of ice is approx. 920 litres/m3

or one litre of ice is equal to 0.92 kilograms.

Therefore ice expands approximately by about 8 to 9% of the volume of water.

The rest is easy.

Like I said only glaciers on mountain rangers can really affect the level of the oceans.

Title: Re: The North Pole Lake - up to July 2013
Post by muso on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 1:15pm

Ajax wrote on Aug 20^th, 2013 at 1:03pm:

Like I said only glaciers on mountain rangers can really affect the level of the oceans.

Your conclusion is right, but to get to that conclusion you need to consider what volume of water is displaced by an iceberg of a given mass, then consider the volume of that mass of ice as liquid water.

We were talking about melting sea ice and you came up with this:

Ajax wrote on Aug 7^th, 2013 at 8:54am:

BTW all this melt off and no rise in sea level????

My reply was intended to highlight the fact that you wouldn't expect much sea level rise from melting sea ice. Melting Arctic sea ice does not contribute significantly to sea-level rise