Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 13^th, 2013 at 2:20pm:

Quote: The messenger of allah said- I will expel the jews and christians from the Arabian peninsula and will not leave any but muslim. www.sunnah.com/muslim/32/75

freediver wrote on Jul 13^th, 2013 at 2:52pm:

Quote: I will expel the jews and christians from the Arabian peninsula and will not leave any but muslim. www.sunnah.com/muslim/32/75 Is that true Gandalf? How would you describe this? Self defense?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 13^th, 2013 at 3:21pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 2:52pm: Is that true Gandalf? How would you describe this? Self defense? My understanding is this included only the Hijaz. Jews however continued to live in Khaybar and Yemen - amazingly enough jews live in Yemen to this day. Christians continued to hang around the region too.

freediver wrote on Jul 13^th, 2013 at 7:00pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 3:21pm: freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 2:52pm: Is that true Gandalf? How would you describe this? Self defense? My understanding is this included only the Hijaz. Jews however continued to live in Khaybar and Yemen - amazingly enough jews live in Yemen to this day. Christians continued to hang around the region too. Are you saying that Muhammed only commanded the expulsion of non-Muslims from the Hijaz area, of that he only succeeded in cleansing the Hijaz area?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 13^th, 2013 at 8:02pm:

Check the quote again - you'll find it wasn't a command. If indeed its even authentic. And besides, it wasn't something that was achieved during his lifetime. Look at the Charter of Medina - not exactly a portent to expulsion is it? If the prophet did resolve to remove all non-muslims from the Hijaz, its only because his hand was forced. Non-muslims were certainly given every opportunity to live in peace with the muslims.

True Colours wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 7:45pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 13th, 2013 at 2:52pm: Quote: I will expel the jews and christians from the Arabian peninsula and will not leave any but muslim. Have to wonder why you didn't post the whole hadeeth. Is it because you wish to deceive? [quote]Umar narrated the Messenger of God said: "I (Umar) will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim." Sounds like a prophesy. A command would be more like: "...the Messenger of God said: I (Umar) must expel the Jews and Christians..." or "...the Messenger of God said: I (Umar) should expel the Jews and Christians..."

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 8:24pm:

What exactly are you accusing me of leaving out? Are Muslims so mindlessly fatalistic that they would reject even Muhammed's ability to influence historical events?

True Colours wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 8:52pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 14th, 2013 at 8:24pm: What exactly are you accusing me of leaving out? You left out the part that Umar was speaking about a prophesy regarding himself. By leaving out who was narrating the hadeeth, how are people to know who was saying "I will"?

So let me get this straight. Muhammed "predicted" that Umar would ethnically cleanse a huge area of Arabia. He told Umar that this was going to happen. Lo and behold, all the Christians, Jews and Pagans misbehaved, forcing Umar to cleans the area of all non-Muslims. And of course Muhammed, Umar and all the other Muslims who carried out the ethnic cleansing predicted by Muhammed are blameless because it was a prediction, not an order?

freediver wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 9:35pm:

...And of course Muhammed, Umar and all the other Muslims who carried out the ethnic cleansing predicted by Muhammed are blameless because it was a prediction, not an order?

You do realise that you are talking about an event that happened many years after the prophet had passed away?


The events must be looked at in the context of Umar's Caliphate in the middle of the 7th century.


During the Caliphate of Umar the circumstances that had forced Jews to emigrate to Arabia in the first place had changed.


Umar liberated nearly all of the Middle East from the Byzantine and Persian Empires. Jews were therefore free to live in places like Jerusalem that they had been denied for 6 centuries.


Umar was far from a Jew-hater, initiating an old-age pension system for Jews in the Islamic state during his rule.


Umar expelled the Jews of Khyber to Syria only after they had broken the treaty  that had allowed them to stay there. The Jews had attacked and wounded Umar's son who had been sent to collect revenue from state-owned farms in the area. They had previously broken numerous treaties. Umar was known to be a very strict man, and did not permit treaty violations.

The expulsion of the Christians of Najran to Iraq also only occurred after the Christians violated a peace treaty. The treaty stipulated that the Christian community in Najran would refrain from dealing in usury. The Christians of Najran did not keep their end of the bargain, and Umar subsequently expelled them to Iraq. Umar gave them a two year exemption from paying taxes to make the move easier.

True Colours wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 10:09pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 14th, 2013 at 9:35pm: ...And of course Muhammed, Umar and all the other Muslims who carried out the ethnic cleansing predicted by Muhammed are blameless because it was a prediction, not an order? You do realise that you are talking about an event that happened many years after the prophet had passed away? The events must be looked at in the context of Umar's Caliphate in the middle of the 7th century. During the Caliphate of Umar the circumstances that had forced Jews to emigrate to Arabia in the first place had changed. Umar liberated nearly all of the Middle East from the Byzantine and Persian Empires. Jews were therefore free to live in places like Jerusalem that they had been denied for 6 centuries. Umar was far from a Jew-hater, initiating an old-age pension system for Jews in the Islamic state during his rule. Umar expelled the Jews of Khyber to Syria only after they had broken the treaty  that had allowed them to stay there. The Jews had attacked and wounded Umar's son who had been sent to collect revenue from state-owned farms in the area. They had previously broken numerous treaties. Umar was known to be a very strict man, and did not permit treaty violations. The expulsion of the Christians of Najran to Iraq also only occurred after the Christians violated a peace treaty. The treaty stipulated that the Christian community in Najran would refrain from dealing in usury. The Christians of Najran did not keep their end of the bargain, and Umar subsequently expelled them to Iraq. Umar gave them a two year exemption from paying taxes to make the move easier.

Q.
Where do moslems learn all of this guff ?

A.
ISLAMIC schools.



It beats engineering, physics, astronomy, logic, and ethics.         :Pi
Google;
australian taxpayers funding islamic schools in indonesia



Dumb!!!!    

Dumb!!!!     Dumb!!!!     Dumb!!!!    

Yadda wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 11:13pm:

Google; australian taxpayers funding islamic schools in indonesia Dumb!!!!     Dumb!!!!     Dumb!!!!     Dumb!!!!

Another John Howard Liberal Government initiative.
(Hey, wasn't Tony Abbott part of that?)


Liberal Party/Tony Abbott jizya!


Allahu akbar!



Quote:

Media Release 12 July 2006 Australia to fund construction of 2000 schools in Indonesia Australia and Indonesia today signed agreements totalling AUD$355 million to build and extend about 2000 schools in Eastern Indonesia over the next three years. This major initiative will also help to enhance education quality and improve education management. The Australian-funded program will include public junior secondary schools as well as Islamic junior secondary schools. Schools will be built by local tradespeople using locally-supplied construction materials. The agreements signed today comprise AUD$200 million of loans and AUD$155 million of grants from the Australia Indonesia Partnership. “The signing of these agreements reaffirms Australia’s commitment to work with the Indonesian Government and local communities to build new junior secondary schools and improve the quality of education in Indonesia,” said Australian Ambassador, Bill Farmer. “This program will support Indonesia’s education strategy to provide universal basic education. Increasing access to education through the construction of new junior secondary facilities, particularly in poor areas, is a priority,” said the Ambassador. “Australia is pleased to be working with Indonesia in providing funds for both public and Islamic schools”. The selection of sites to build and extend schools will be based on assessment of needs and community involvement. Australian assistance to Indonesian education currently includes programs aimed at strengthening school and community governance and management systems, as well as improved classroom teaching and learning, mainly in poor areas of Eastern Indonesia. In Aceh, Australian activities include rebuilding of public and Islamic schools damaged in the 2004 earthquake and tsunami. Further information: Mia Salim (AusAID Public Affairs) – 2550-5490 / 0812 1070237

True Colours wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 11:45pm:

Yadda wrote on Jul 14th, 2013 at 11:13pm: Google; australian taxpayers funding islamic schools in indonesia Dumb!!!!     Dumb!!!!     Dumb!!!!     Dumb!!!!     Another John Howard Liberal Government initiative.

True!

And the irony is, that if an ISLAMIC caliphate was brought into being in Australia tomorrow, John Howards throat would be one of the first to have a moslem knife drawn across it!
[....not for the funding of ISLAMIC schools in Indonesia, but for all of the crimes which John Howard has committed against the moslem ummah.]

damn - I always suspected Howard was a closet muslim.

Yadda wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 11:51pm:

And the irony is, that if an ISLAMIC caliphate was brought into being in Australia tomorrow...

Tomorrow! I think you're getting a bit ahead of schedule there Yadda. Doubt it could be done before next week at the earliest.


Yadda wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 11:51pm:

John Howards throat would be one of the first to have a moslem knife drawn across it! ... for all of the crimes which John Howard has committed against the moslem ummah.

Perhaps - but lest we forget the crimes that he committed against his own people. Perhaps a Mussolini-type ending would be more befitting.

True Colours wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 12:16am:

Yadda wrote on Jul 14th, 2013 at 11:51pm: And the irony is, that if an ISLAMIC caliphate was brought into being in Australia tomorrow... Tomorrow! I think you're getting a bit ahead of schedule there Yadda. Doubt it could be done before next week at the earliest. Yadda wrote on Jul 14th, 2013 at 11:51pm: John Howards throat would be one of the first to have a moslem knife drawn across it! ... for all of the crimes which John Howard has committed against the moslem ummah. Perhaps - but lest we forget the crimes that he committed against his own people. Perhaps a Mussolini-type ending would be more befitting.

[I just wanted to 'lock' that reply in.]

Yadda wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 12:20am:

True Colours wrote on Jul 15th, 2013 at 12:16am: Yadda wrote on Jul 14th, 2013 at 11:51pm: And the irony is, that if an ISLAMIC caliphate was brought into being in Australia tomorrow... Tomorrow! I think you're getting a bit ahead of schedule there Yadda. Doubt it could be done before next week at the earliest. Yadda wrote on Jul 14th, 2013 at 11:51pm: John Howards throat would be one of the first to have a moslem knife drawn across it! ... for all of the crimes which John Howard has committed against the moslem ummah. Perhaps - but lest we forget the crimes that he committed against his own people. Perhaps a Mussolini-type ending would be more befitting. [I just wanted to 'lock' that reply in.]

No need. I will reiterate for you: Howard is to Australia what  Mussolini was to Italy...maybe Abbott will try to top him and go for Hitler.

TC, what other Australian leaders do you think deserve a similar fate?

How successful was Umar's ethnic cleansing?

freediver wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 7:04pm:

TC, what other Australian leaders do you think deserve a similar fate?

Howard is the biggest traitor this country has had since Kerr. If an angry mob strung him up I wouldn't shed any tears for him.

If there was real justice in this country, Howard would be charged with war crimes.

Somebody who has killed as many innocent people and children as Howard has should be prosecuted.

Now that you mention it, Menzies was a massive traitor too sending off Australian troops to protect England when Australia faced a threat at home from Japan.





freediver wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 7:04pm:

How successful was Umar's ethnic cleansing?

Let's face it, minorities were treated much better in Umar's Caliphate than they were in Christian Europe at the time. In Christian Europe, Jews for example, faced restrictions on occupations, land ownership and travel.

Jews were fully expelled from many countries in Christian Europe; England, France, Germany, Spain and Portugal all fully expelled all Jews from their countries in medieval times .

'Umar did not expel Jews or Christians from his state. Those groups who kept their words and treaties were protected by the Islamic state.

Abiding by treaties is an Islamic principle:


Quote:

“Whoever kills a person protected by a treaty will never smell the fragrance of Paradise, and indeed its fragrance can be found a distance of forty years of travel.” -Bukhari

Quote:

“Whoever kills someone among the people with whom there is a covenant, then he will not smell the fragrance of Paradise even though it can be found after forty years of travel.” -al-Nisai

When a small tribe of Jews reneged against a treaty that they had made with the Islamic state, 'Umar was quite merciful by contemporary standards. Under any contemporary non-Muslim regimes such renegades would probably have all been enslaved or put to death. Umar spared them the vengeance that was common in those times, and only ordered them to move from the Hijaz, and it was negotiated that they be resettled in the neighbouring Levant region.

Other Jewish tribes and communities in the Islamic state such as those in Yemen were unaffected by the breaking of the treaty.

The Hijaz is an area not much bigger than Victoria. The Islamic state at the time of Umar's rule was about the same size as Australia. Jews and Christians were free to travel through all of the state except the holy sites of Mecca and Madina

Interesting!

Now please explain the differences between Taqyiia and Kitman.

I merely wish to know into which folder I need to place your non-answers.

As Islam is the only true religion, I wish to know how my children may co-exist amongst the followers of the 'Religion of Peace'.

Assuming, of course, that they follow their father into his ex-Catholic agnosticism.

Will they have a place in an Islamic Australia?

And what would that be?

So Howard, Menzies and Kerr - any others?


Quote:

'Umar did not expel Jews or Christians from his state. Those groups who kept their words and treaties were protected by the Islamic state.

So it is just a coincidence that every group of non-Muslims in the area in question ended up getting kicked out?


Quote:

Abiding by treaties is an Islamic principle

Is there any Islamic precedent for how long Muslims should keep a treaty?


Quote:

Other Jewish tribes and communities in the Islamic state such as those in Yemen were unaffected by the breaking of the treaty.

So what was the extent of the ethnic cleansing?


Quote:

The Hijaz is an area not much bigger than Victoria.

Were all non-Muslims evicted from this area?


Quote:

The Islamic state at the time of Umar's rule was about the same size as Australia. Jews and Christians were free to travel through all of the state except the holy sites of Mecca and Madina

Could they travel to the Hijaz?

Lionel Edriess wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 9:52pm:

Interesting! Now please explain the differences between Taqyiia and Kitman.

Taqiya is a principle of the minority Shi-ite sect. The majority of mainstream Muslim - e.g.. the 90% who are called sunnis - do not believe in this practice. In fact it is considered a grave sin to deny being a Muslim. The only exception is compulsion under the threat of death. A Muslim can deny Islam if a sword is placed over his neck. This is reported to have happened during the Spanish Inquisitions when some Spanish Muslims who faced death pretended to be Christians. Catholic authorities in Spain began to suspect that not all Jewish and Muslim converts were sincere and began torturing and killing people for even the smallest sign of being non-Christian such as bathing on Friday (the Muslim holy day).


The Quran and hadeeth repeatedly stress the importance of truthfulness:


Quote:

“O you who believe!  Have fear of God, and be among the truthful.” - the Quran, al-Tawbah v.119]

Quote:

“The Messenger of God  (peace and blessings of God be upon him) said: ‘You must be truthful, for truthfulness leads to righteousness and righteousness leads to Paradise. A man will keep speaking the truth and striving to speak the truth until he will be recorded with God as a  speaker of the truth. Beware of telling lies, for lying leads to immorality and immorality leads to Hellfire. A man will keep telling lies and striving to tell lies until he is recorded with God as a liar.” - Saheeh al-Muslim

Quote:

‘Leave that which makes you doubt for that which does not make you doubt, for truthfulness is certainty and tranquillity, whilst lying is doubt and confusion.” -  al-Tirmidhi

Lionel Edriess wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 9:52pm:

As Islam is the only true religion, I wish to know how my children may co-exist amongst the followers of the 'Religion of Peace'. Assuming, of course, that they follow their father into his ex-Catholic agnosticism. Will they have a place in an Islamic Australia? And what would that be?

I am amazed that you ask such a question considering that the  Muslim population in this country is only 2%. Perhaps you should ask yourself what makes Islam such a powerful force - is its commandments to do good and be honest and truthful? Is it the monotheistic nature of Islam?




Quote:

"God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers." - The Quran, al-Mumtahinah, v. 8

True Colours wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 1:03am:

No need. I will reiterate for you: Howard is to Australia what  Mussolini was to Italy...maybe Abbott will try to top him and go for Hitler.

You are insane.

freediver wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 10:39pm:

So Howard, Menzies and Kerr - any others?

Any other what? Traitors? There are probably a few more. Why has Rupert Murdoch got US citizenship? Who is Andrew Bolt working for?




freediver wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 10:39pm:

Quote: 'Umar did not expel Jews or Christians from his state. Those groups who kept their words and treaties were protected by the Islamic state. So it is just a coincidence that every group of non-Muslims in the area in question ended up getting kicked out?

Well that would depend who you ask I suppose - Muslims don't really believe in coincidence; whatever transpires must suely be part of God's great plan.



freediver wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 10:39pm:

Quote: Abiding by treaties is an Islamic principle Is there any Islamic precedent for how long Muslims should keep a treaty?

I am not of any.




freediver wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 10:39pm:

Quote: Other Jewish tribes and communities in the Islamic state such as those in Yemen were unaffected by the breaking of the treaty. So what was the extent of the ethnic cleansing?

It is a bit of a stretch to call the resettlement of a small tribe 'ethnic cleansing' - particularly as the resettlement occurred due to their actions (breaking a peace treaty) not their religion. If it were ethnic cleansing, why not remove all the Jews in Arabia? Only those who broke the treaty were resettled.


Ethnicity was not even a consideration, as those jews from the renegade tribe who had converted to Islam were allowed to stay and accepted as valuable members of the Muslim community.

Compare that to the treatment of American Indians and Australian Aborigines who even when they converted to Christianity were still rounded up and put into concentration camps/missions/stations and then forced to do unpaid work. Umar's caliphate was more just than the the American or Australian governments when they are at war.



freediver wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 10:39pm:

Quote: The Hijaz is an area not much bigger than Victoria. Were all non-Muslims evicted from this area?

By the time Umar became Caliph, the whole of Hijaz had already long converted to Islam. There was only one small Jewish tribe at Khyber. There was also a small Christian community in Najran that had been almost wiped out by in a massacre conducted by Yemeni Jews more than a century earlier. Both these communities had made treaties with the Islamic state, both broke the treaties, and Umar decided to resettle them in order to secure the Islamic capital.




freediver wrote on Jul 15^th, 2013 at 10:39pm:

Quote: The Islamic state at the time of Umar's rule was about the same size as Australia. Jews and Christians were free to travel through all of the state except the holy sites of Mecca and Madina Could they travel to the Hijaz?

Of course. They used to even visit Madina when on official business - e.g. those living in the Islamic state would come to Madina to petition Umar. Non-Muslim emissaries were also known to visit Madina itself.

There are non-Muslims including Australians working in the Hijaz today.

:(

Quote:

‘Leave that which makes you doubt for that which does not make you doubt, for truthfulness is certainty and tranquillity, whilst lying is doubt and confusion.” -  al-Tirmidhi

Can you explain what this is referring to?


Quote:

Any other what? Traitors? There are probably a few more. Why has Rupert Murdoch got US citizenship? Who is Andrew Bolt working for?

I think Andrew Bolt works for The Australian. Does that make him a traitor?


Quote:

Well that would depend who you ask I suppose - Muslims don't really believe in coincidence; whatever transpires must suely be part of God's great plan.

It seems like a large area. You have explained that two of the non-Muslim tribes transgressed somehow, so deserved to be kicked out and were lucky not to have been slaughtered by Muslims. Were there any others?

Is this the area?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Hejaz-English.jpg/275px-Hejaz-English.jpg


Quote:

It is a bit of a stretch to call the resettlement of a small tribe 'ethnic cleansing'

Is that all it took to make the entire area Muslim-only? How long after Mo's death was this?


Quote:

It is a bit of a stretch to call the resettlement of a small tribe 'ethnic cleansing' - particularly as the resettlement occurred due to their actions (breaking a peace treaty) not their religion. If it were ethnic cleansing, why not remove all the Jews in Arabia? Only those who broke the treaty were resettled. Ethnicity was not even a consideration, as those jews from the renegade tribe who had converted to Islam were allowed to stay and accepted as valuable members of the Muslim community.

So it was neither ethnicity or religion that saw the whole group forcibly evicted?


Quote:

Compare that to the treatment of American Indians and Australian Aborigines who even when they converted to Christianity were still rounded up and put into concentration camps/missions/stations and then forced to do unpaid work. Umar's caliphate was more just than the the American or Australian governments when they are at war.

So the Caliphate had no slaves?


Quote:

By the time Umar became Caliph, the whole of Hijaz had already long converted to Islam.

Voluntarily? When was this? Umar appears to say that Mo predicted it and told him in person. That seems like a short time to me.


Quote:

Of course. They used to even visit Madina when on official business - e.g. those living in the Islamic state would come to Madina to petition Umar. Non-Muslim emissaries were also known to visit Madina itself.

Were non-Muslims forbidden in Mecca at this time?

True Colours wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 1:11am:

freediver wrote on Jul 15th, 2013 at 10:39pm: Quote: Abiding by treaties is an Islamic principle Is there any Islamic precedent for how long Muslims should keep a treaty? I am not [aware] of any.

Then you are not aware TC.




Moslem 'peace' treaties with unbelievers, are mandated to be made, only because of moslem [military] weakness.

And during the period of a truce with disbelievers, as soon as moslems are again strong enough to re-engage in warfare 'struggle' against the disbelievers, the moslems are then obligated [by their religion] to 'set aside' their truce with the disbelievers.

All truces with disbelievers are made [by moslems], only, because such a truce is advantageous to the moslems, and such a truce is not being offered because moslems are willing to accept any long term peaceful co-existence, with any person who is a [independent from ISLAM] disbeliever.

Google;
hudaibiyah, period of treaty





as per being revealed by this moslem scholar......


Quote:

Live in peace till strong enough to wage jihad, says UK Deoband scholar to Muslims London, Sept.8 [2007] A Deobandi scholar believes Muslims should preach peace till they are strong enough to undertake a jihad, or a holy war. Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani was quoted by the BBC as saying that Muslims should live peacefully in countries such as Britain, where they have the freedom to practise Islam, only until they gain enough power to engage in battle. A former Sharia judge in Pakistan's Supreme Court, 64-year-old Usmani, is...a regular visitor to Britain. Polite and softly spoken.... He agreed that it was wrong to suggest that the entire non-Muslim world was intent on destroying Islam, but justifies an aggressive military jihad as a means of establishing global Islamic supremacy.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2409833.ece

True Colours wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 1:11am:

By the time Umar became Caliph, the whole of Hijaz had already long converted to Islam. There was only one small Jewish tribe at Khyber.

Do you think anyone will believe your lies?


Quote:

Umar bin Al Khattab expelled all the jews and christians from the land of Hijaz. www.sunnah.com/bukhari/57/60

There are lots of verses on muslims expelling the jews and christians.
www.sunnah.com/search/expel-jews

What did the poor little Geckos do to piss Mohammad off,why did Mohammad command Geckos be killed, did they break a treaty?

Quote:

Allah's apostle commanded the killing of Geckos, he called them little noxious creatures www.sunnah.com/urn/255620

Good lord - collective punishment of Geckos now. Was no one spared the prophet's wrath??

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 1:28pm:

Good lord - collective punishment of Geckos now. Was no one spared the prophet's wrath??

Why did Mo order geckos be killed?

He didnt like dogs either-


Quote:

During the lifetime of Allah's apostle,the dogs used to urinate and pass through the mosques,nevertheless they never used to sprinkle water on it (urine of the dog) www.sunnah.com/bukhari/4/40

Quote:

Allah's messenger ordered that the dogs should be killed. www.sunnah.com/bukhari/59/129

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 1:52pm:

Why did Mo order geckos be killed?

Clearly because he was evil incarnate.

It does make him look a bit foolish. Is this supposed to be an order from God?

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 1:52pm:

Allah's messenger ordered that the dogs should be killed.

Yes culling of stray dogs was ordered at times.

It happens here in Australia too.

Some animal pests that are culled in Australia:

dogs
kangaroos
goats
camels
foxes
rabbits
cats

attempts are also being made to eradicate certain species such as cane toads


You must be appalled at how barbaric and uncivilised Australia is in the 21st century.

Perhaps you should call the RSPCA or WSPA.

Yadda wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 10:26am:

True Colours wrote on Jul 16th, 2013 at 1:11am: freediver wrote on Jul 15th, 2013 at 10:39pm: Quote: Abiding by treaties is an Islamic principle Is there any Islamic precedent for how long Muslims should keep a treaty? I am not [aware] of any. Then you are not aware TC. Moslem 'peace' treaties with unbelievers, are mandated to be made, only because of moslem [military] weakness. And during the period of a truce with disbelievers, as soon as moslems are again strong enough to re-engage in warfare 'struggle' against the disbelievers, the moslems are then obligated [by their religion] to 'set aside' their truce with the disbelievers. All truces with disbelievers are made [by moslems], only, because such a truce is advantageous to the moslems, and such a truce is not being offered because moslems are willing to accept any long term peaceful co-existence, with any person who is a [independent from ISLAM] disbeliever. Google; hudaibiyah, period of treaty as per being revealed by this moslem scholar...... [quote] Live in peace till strong enough to wage jihad, says UK Deoband scholar to Muslims London, Sept.8 [2007] A Deobandi scholar believes Muslims should preach peace till they are strong enough to undertake a jihad, or a holy war. Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani was quoted by the BBC as saying that Muslims should live peacefully in countries such as Britain, where they have the freedom to practise Islam, only until they gain enough power to engage in battle. A former Sharia judge in Pakistan's Supreme Court, 64-year-old Usmani, is...a regular visitor to Britain. Polite and softly spoken.... He agreed that it was wrong to suggest that the entire non-Muslim world was intent on destroying Islam, but justifies an aggressive military jihad as a means of establishing global Islamic supremacy.

[/quote]

Yeah the link doesn't work. Do you just make these up or what?



Here is a an excerpt from an Israeli newspaper article about an extremist rabbi who says it OK to kill non-Jew babies. Does it worry you Yadda?


Quote:

West Bank rabbi: Jews can kill Gentiles who threaten Israel Book by Rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro of Yitzhar permits even the murder of babies and children who pose threat. Just weeks after the arrest of alleged Jewish terrorist, Yaakov Teitel, a West Bank rabbi on Monday released a book giving Jews permission to kill Gentiles who threaten Israel. Rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro, who heads the Od Yosef Chai Yeshiva in the Yitzhar settlement, wrote in his book "The King's Torah" that even babies and children can be killed if they pose a threat to the nation. Shapiro based the majority of his teachings on passages quoted from the Bible, to which he adds his opinions and beliefs. "It is permissable to kill the Righteous among Nations even if they are not responsible for the threatening situation," he wrote, adding: "If we kill a Gentile who has sinned or has violated one of the seven commandments - because we care about the commandments - there is nothing wrong with the murder." Several prominent rabbis, including Rabbi Yithak Ginzburg and Rabbi Yaakov Yosef, have recommended the book to their students and followers. - Haaretz, Nov 9, 2009

or perhaps you would like this one about how the Israeli gov funds rabbis who call for killing of babies?



Quote:

Who is funding the rabbi who endorses killing gentile babies? Right-wing spokesmen, including some elected officials, rushed to place Yaakov "Jack" Teitel in the fringe group alongside Yigal Amir, Eden Natan Zada, Eliran Golan, Asher Weisgan, Danny Tikman and a few other "political/ideological" murderers... ...government ministries regularly transfer support and funding to a yeshiva whose rabbi determined that it is permissible to kill gentile babies... ...in 2006-2007, the Ministry of Education department of Torah institutions transferred over a million shekels to the Od Yosef Hai yeshiva in Yitzhar. The Ministry of Social Affairs has allocated over 150,000 shekels to the yeshiva since 2007... ...The commandments in the book do not suffice only with gentiles; you can also find in them approval to attack leftist professors: every citizen in the kingdom opposing us who encourages the fighters or expresses satisfaction with their actions is considered a pursuer and his killing is permissible," wrote the rabbi and adds, "and also considered a pursuer is someone whose remarks weaken our kingdom or have a similar effect." - Haaretz, 17 Nov. 2009

Perhaps you would like to talk about what the Catholic Church has done when it gained power - e.g. Inquisitions, Cruades, complicity in Holocaust, etc.


I can show you articles about Christian priests who were involved in genocide in Rwanda or bombings in Ireland. There are articles about a priest who is the arguably the biggest terrorist in the world.

There are priests and rabbis currently blessing armies that are invading and occupying Muslim lands today.

I spoke to a ADF serviceman a few months ago who told me that the ADF brings in priests and rabbis to justify to the soldiers the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan. Sick right?

People in glass houses shouldn't th

True Colours wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 2:46pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 16th, 2013 at 1:52pm: Allah's messenger ordered that the dogs should be killed. Yes culling of stray dogs was ordered at times. It happens here in Australia too. Some animal pests that are culled in Australia: dogs kangaroos goats camels foxes rabbits cats attempts are also being made to eradicate certain species such as cane toads You must be appalled at how barbaric and uncivilised Australia is in the 21st century. Perhaps you should call the RSPCA or WSPA.

Ive never heard of Prophet Mohammed killing dogs.

Is there a hadith which says he did?

Muslims can have dogs, example guard dogs, you need dogs for hunting etc.

shockresist wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 3:47pm:

True Colours wrote on Jul 16th, 2013 at 2:46pm: Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 16th, 2013 at 1:52pm: Allah's messenger ordered that the dogs should be killed. Yes culling of stray dogs was ordered at times. It happens here in Australia too. Some animal pests that are culled in Australia: dogs kangaroos goats camels foxes rabbits cats attempts are also being made to eradicate certain species such as cane toads You must be appalled at how barbaric and uncivilised Australia is in the 21st century. Perhaps you should call the RSPCA or WSPA. Ive never heard of Prophet Mohammed killing dogs. Is there a hadith which says he did? Muslims can have dogs, example guard dogs, you need dogs for hunting etc.

Yes there are many hadeeth regarding this. But they are in reference to wild dogs that had become a plague in the area at the time. It is not a reference to domesticated dogs which were allowed to be kept, and were not targeted in culls.

It would be considered a matter of government administration on the grounds of public health and safety, and was not a religious ritual - e.g. Muslims are not required or even encouraged to kill dogs.

True Colours wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 4:54pm:

shockresist wrote on Jul 16th, 2013 at 3:47pm: True Colours wrote on Jul 16th, 2013 at 2:46pm: Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 16th, 2013 at 1:52pm: Allah's messenger ordered that the dogs should be killed. Yes culling of stray dogs was ordered at times. It happens here in Australia too. Some animal pests that are culled in Australia: dogs kangaroos goats camels foxes rabbits cats attempts are also being made to eradicate certain species such as cane toads You must be appalled at how barbaric and uncivilised Australia is in the 21st century. Perhaps you should call the RSPCA or WSPA. Ive never heard of Prophet Mohammed killing dogs. Is there a hadith which says he did? Muslims can have dogs, example guard dogs, you need dogs for hunting etc. Yes there are many hadeeth regarding this. But they are in reference to wild dogs that had become a plague in the area at the time. It is not a reference to domesticated dogs which were allowed to be kept, and were not targeted in culls. It would be considered a matter of government administration on the grounds of public health and safety, and was not a religious ritual - e.g. Muslims are not required or even encouraged to kill dogs.

The hadeeth show Mohammad was making it up as he went along even blind freddy can see this.

Did Mo allow guard and hunting dogs after complaints from muslims,why is there no verse allowing guide dogs for blind people?

There is nothing in the hadeeth to indicate domestic dogs are encouraged or that wild dogs were a problem.

www.sunnah.com/search/dogi

Quote:

The messenger of allah said- The black dog is a devil www.sunnah.com/muslim/4/299

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 6:08pm:

Quote: The messenger of allah said- The black dog is a devil

interesting isn't that some of the most dangerous dogs are black - like doberman and rottweilers. Pitbulls and wolves can be black as well.

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 5:45pm:

why is there no verse allowing guide dogs for blind people?

Did you know that miniature horses can be trained to do the same thing?


Quote:

Tiny horse trains as guide for blind Muslim woman Mona Ramouni, 28, lost her sight shortly after birth, and has had to rely on her family members to guide her around the Detroit suburb where they live... ...Now Mexicali Rose, a 3-year-old former show horse that stands about 2 1/2 feet tall and weighs about 125 pounds, has arrived to help Miss Ramouni... ...The horses can live into their 30s, more than twice as long as most dogs, she said. The horse, who has been trained to get in and out of vehicles, guide through crowds and stand still indoors, is expected to take up residence in a newly erected shed on the family's lawn within the next two months... - The Telegraph, 10 Apr 2009

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 5:45pm:

There is nothing in the hadeeth to indicate domestic dogs are encouraged or that wild dogs were a problem.

You seem to think that this is the only recording of the incident. It is not. There are dozens of reports which mention the culling of wild dogs in Madina.


Quote:

Ibn Mughaffal reported: The Messenger of God (peace & blessings of God upon him) ordered killing of the dogs..and then granted concession (to keep) the dog for hunting and the dog for (the security) of the herd, and and for watching the cultivated land... - Saheeh al-Muslim

Quote:

Ibn Umar reported that God's Messenger ordered the killing of dogs except the dog tamed for hunting, or watching of the herd of sheep or other domestic animals. It was said to Ibn Umar  that Abu Huraira mentioned the exception about the dog for watching the field... - Saheeh al-Muslim

Quote:

Ibn Mughaffal reported: "God's Messenger ordered the killing of dogs and then said: 'what is the trouble with them? How dogs are nuisance to them (the citizens of Medina).' He then permitted keeping of dogs for hunting and (the protection of) herds." Yahya added that he (the Prophet) permitted the keeping of dogs for (the protection of) herds, for hunting and (the protection of) cultivated land. - Saheeh al-Muslim

Quote:

Narrated Aisha: God's Messenger said, "Five kinds of animals are harmful and could be culled (even) in the  Sanctuary (of Madina or Mecca). These are: the crow, the kite, the scorpion, the mouse and the rabid dog."  (Book #29, Hadith #55)

True Colours wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 4:54pm:

shockresist wrote on Jul 16th, 2013 at 3:47pm: True Colours wrote on Jul 16th, 2013 at 2:46pm: Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 16th, 2013 at 1:52pm: Allah's messenger ordered that the dogs should be killed. Yes culling of stray dogs was ordered at times. It happens here in Australia too. Some animal pests that are culled in Australia: dogs kangaroos goats camels foxes rabbits cats attempts are also being made to eradicate certain species such as cane toads You must be appalled at how barbaric and uncivilised Australia is in the 21st century. Perhaps you should call the RSPCA or WSPA. Ive never heard of Prophet Mohammed killing dogs. Is there a hadith which says he did? Muslims can have dogs, example guard dogs, you need dogs for hunting etc. Yes there are many hadeeth regarding this. But they are in reference to wild dogs that had become a plague in the area at the time. It is not a reference to domesticated dogs which were allowed to be kept, and were not targeted in culls. It would be considered a matter of government administration on the grounds of public health and safety, and was not a religious ritual - e.g. Muslims are not required or even encouraged to kill dogs.

Animals can take people to heaven.

There was a story of the female prostitute who came across a dog who was thirsty.So the lady went into a well and filled her shoe with water and gave some water to the dog.

God forgave her for her actions and was allowed into heaven by her kind treatment.

shockresist wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 9:07pm:

Animals can take people to heaven. There was a story of the female prostitute who came across a dog who was thirsty.So the lady went into a well and filled her shoe with water and gave some water to the dog. God forgave her for her actions and was allowed into heaven by her kind treatment.

You do realise that this is a metaphor and is not to be taken literally.

shockresist wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 9:07pm:

Animals can take people to heaven. There was a story of the female prostitute who came across a dog who was thirsty.So the lady went into a well and filled her shoe with water and gave some water to the dog. God forgave her for her actions and was allowed into heaven by her kind treatment.

Yes. She was an Israelite


Quote:

Narrated Abu Huraira: "The Prophet said, "While a dog was going round a well and was about to die of thirst, a  prostitute from the Tribes of Israel saw it and took off her shoe and gave it some water (using the shoe as a vessel). So God forgave her because of that good deed." - Bukhari

Soren wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 9:14pm:

shockresist wrote on Jul 16th, 2013 at 9:07pm: Animals can take people to heaven. There was a story of the female prostitute who came across a dog who was thirsty.So the lady went into a well and filled her shoe with water and gave some water to the dog. God forgave her for her actions and was allowed into heaven by her kind treatment. You do realise that this is a metaphor and is not to be taken literally.

Never ever, old chap. They didn’t have metaphors, remember?

Completely performative, literalist, absolutist.

Always. Absolutely. On stilts.

Karnal wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 9:40pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 16th, 2013 at 9:14pm: shockresist wrote on Jul 16th, 2013 at 9:07pm: Animals can take people to heaven. There was a story of the female prostitute who came across a dog who was thirsty.So the lady went into a well and filled her shoe with water and gave some water to the dog. God forgave her for her actions and was allowed into heaven by her kind treatment. You do realise that this is a metaphor and is not to be taken literally. Never ever, old chap. They didn’t have metaphors, remember? Completely performative, literalist, absolutist. Always. Absolutely. On stilts.

Indeed. In their own words:

True Colours wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 9:33pm:

shockresist wrote on Jul 16th, 2013 at 9:07pm: Animals can take people to heaven. There was a story of the female prostitute who came across a dog who was thirsty.So the lady went into a well and filled her shoe with water and gave some water to the dog. God forgave her for her actions and was allowed into heaven by her kind treatment. Yes. She was an Israelite Quote: Narrated Abu Huraira: "The Prophet said, "While a dog was going round a well and was about to die of thirst, an  prostitute from the Tribes of Israel saw it and took off her shoe and gave it some water (using the shoe as a vessel). So God forgave her because of that good deed." - Bukhari

Bukhari -  they rest their case.


You can see how widely they read, how broad a horizon they strive for.
Bukhari or bust, innit.i

True Colours wrote on Jul 14^th, 2013 at 10:09pm:

Umar was far from a Jew-hater, initiating an old-age pension system for Jews in the Islamic state during his rule. Umar expelled the Jews of Khyber to Syria only after they had broken the treaty  that had allowed them to stay there.

;D ;D ;D
Did they lose their pension rights?  Imcrookonit should be told.

True Colours wrote on Jul 16^th, 2013 at 4:54pm:

shockresist wrote on Jul 16th, 2013 at 3:47pm: Ive never heard of Prophet Mohammed killing dogs. Is there a hadith which says he did? Muslims can have dogs, example guard dogs, you need dogs for hunting etc. Yes there are many hadeeth regarding this. But they are in reference to wild dogs that had become a plague in the area at the time. It is not a reference to domesticated dogs which were allowed to be kept, and were not targeted in culls. It would be considered a matter of government administration on the grounds of public health and safety, and was not a religious ritual - e.g. Muslims are not required or even encouraged to kill dogs.

;D ;D



Islam's intellectual horizons: wild versus domesticated dogs - do we kill them, how to kill them, why we kill them, who is targeted for culling.
And that's just the dogs!

Imagine the depth of the intellectual labour that goes into whether or how to kill the kuffar and especially the Jooooooo.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 13^th, 2013 at 2:51pm:

Since thats somehow not obvious enough for you FD, this thread is about challenging the charge that Muhammad, and therefore Islam has an anti-semitic agenda - it hates jews for being jews, and the prophet planned and organised a sinnister plot to ethnically cleanse the jews from Arabia.

Gandalf, does telling one of his successors that he "will" ethnically cleanse the entire Arabian peninsula count as a sinister plot? Or is it not a sinister plot because it is all well documented and justified?


polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 8^th, 2013 at 10:11pm:

Just about every response of yours relating to Muhammad's treatment of the jews has a reference to Hitler and Hitler-like sinister motives. My personal favourite was your statement that "Muhammed persecuted everyone who did not join his religion - Jews, Christians, Pagans etc" - seemingly completely oblivious of the covenant of Medina, as well as the Achtiname of Muhammad.

Gandalf is it a little strange that Muhammed would predict the ethnic cleansing of people he had made a covenant with?


polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 11:52am:

Everything we know about the prophet indicates that he saw the jews as natural allies.

Gandalf can you explain how Muhammed's prediction indicates that he saw the Jews as natural allies?


polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 7^th, 2013 at 10:38am:

There is no evidence that Muhammad hated the jews because they were jews. On the contrary, he had set up the first multi-faith society in Medina, where muslims, christians and jews lived as equals.

Can you clarify this in the context of the ethnic cleansing of the Hijaz please Gandalf?


polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 12^th, 2013 at 6:33pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 12th, 2013 at 12:51pm: I never said it was limited to Jews. But you certainly said it included the jews. You stated very clearly that all jews were ethnically cleansed, firstly out of Arabia, then you modified that to 'a significant area' of Arabia - or something similar. Now that bullshit claim is exposed for the lie that it is, your tactic is to respond by referring to non-jews that were allegedly ethnically cleansed. The thread is about jews, how about we stick to that?

Gandalf, would you mind clarifying what claims you think are BS?


polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 13^th, 2013 at 11:18am:

For example - the Achtiname of Muhammad, where the prophet enshrines the protection of christians into law: Quote: ... * No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. ...

Can you explain away the apparent contradiction between this and the ethnic cleansing, which involved forcibly relocating many people, including Christians?

Were pagans afforded the same standards?


polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10^th, 2013 at 10:16am:

freediver wrote on Jul 9th, 2013 at 10:06pm: I thought you were a muslim. Would you mind explaining the myth thing? The myth that Muhammad hated jews and engaged in collective punishment, and worked to ethnically cleanse the jews from Arabia.

Is it a myth or not? Is it only incorrect in that Muhammed only got rid of a few tribes of Jews, and left it to Umar to cleanse the entire Arabian peninsula - and he only partially fulfilled this "prediction"?


polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 11^th, 2013 at 11:17pm:

FD, not a single one of those posts says anything that supports the view that jews were ethnically cleansed from Arabia - or any part of Arabia. What exactly were you trying to show me FD?

Do you still think this Gandalf?

Let's be frank, it is ludicrous to call the transfer of a small community from one part of a state to another ethnic cleansing. Ethnic cleansing would be to either kill them  or force them out of the state altogether. How is it ethnic cleansing if 99.9% of Jews and Christians were unaffected? A small community was moved In Australia you may be moved if it is for the greater good. I can show you cases where people were forced by the government to move because of the greater good - for example the government wants to build a airport, railway line or freeway/motorway. Is it ethnic cleansing? The Israeli government unilaterally decided to force Israeli settlers to move from the Gaza Strip. Did the Israeli government commit ethnic cleansing? In Australia, the principle with forcibly moving someone from their home is that they are entitled to equal compensation. Umar did far better than that, for example, the people of Khaybar were given land near the Mediterranean coast in exchange for their dusty desert village Seriously which would you choose a village in the middle of the desert, 200 km from any body of water, or river or a some farmland in the Middle East's so-called Fertile Crescent just a few kilometres from the nearest rivers, lakes and the Mediterranean Coast. Since when does ethnic cleansing involve an upgrade?

The people of Khaybar were not moved based on their ethnicity but rather based on their hostile actions. They had broken a treaty with violence action. Add to this that they were  living in the nearest town to the capital of the Islamic state - a threat that necessitated their removal.

People should marvel at the mercy of Umar towards these hostile people. They had  only attacked an official working for the state but had wounded the sone of the leader of the greatest empire in the world! Imagine if it had been the son of a leader of any other empire - surely they would have been tortured, killed or at least enslaved. But in the Islamic Caliphate? No, Umar gave them an upgrade!  What would contemporary leaders do? When the nephew of the Emperor of the Austria-Hungarian Empire was attacked World War II began and 16 million people are killed. George W started a war that destroyed Iraq and had Saddam killed for an alleged assassination attempt that did not even result in injury:



Quote:

Saddam tried to kill my dad, says Bush September 27 2002 Disarming and ousting Saddam Hussein is a uniquely American concern, President George W Bush said late today, citing the Iraqi leader's ties to an assassination attempt on Bush's father. "Other countries of course, bear the same risk. But there's no doubt his hatred is mainly directed at us," Bush said at a political fundraiser in Houston, Texas. "After all this is the guy who tried to kill my dad." As Bush's father, former president George Bush, travelled to Kuwait in April 1993, officials there disrupted a car bomb plot they said they traced back to Saddam. Then US president Bill Clinton cited the plot as justification for a June 1993 US missile attack on Baghdad's intelligence headquarters. Bush had also referred to that US charge in his September 12 address to the UN General Assembly, but had deliberately referred only to "a former American president" to avoid personalising the issue, aides said. In his speech here, the US leader again said Washington would act alone if the world body fails to take strong action to strip Saddam of any nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons. "If the United Nations won't act, if he doesn't disarm, the United States will lead a coalition to make sure he does," the president said here. "It's an American issue, a uniquely American issue." Sydney Morning Herald

Did Umar wipe out the Jewish community in the desert village of Khaybar? No, he gave them a real estate upgrade! Amazing! What leader of any Empire has ever demonstrated such mercy?

freediver wrote on Jul 17^th, 2013 at 10:29am:

Gandalf, does telling one of his successors that he "will" ethnically cleanse the entire Arabian peninsula count as a sinister plot?

No, and 'ethnically cleanse' is the wrong term. They were all the same ethnicity.


freediver wrote on Jul 17^th, 2013 at 10:29am:

Gandalf is it a little strange that Muhammed would predict the ethnic cleansing of people he had made a covenant with?

It was a prophecy as I understand it - he prophesised that those remaining non-muslims (the vast majority had already converted to islam) would break the covenant, and would be expelled. The point is, nowhere can you find any instance where Muhammad broke the covenant, and expelled non-muslims simply because they were non-muslims. Also, Umar continued to honour the covenant - only expelling those who broke it.


freediver wrote on Jul 17^th, 2013 at 10:29am:

Gandalf, would you mind clarifying what claims you think are BS?

Sure, how about the fact that jews have lived in Yemen continuously until this very day. Jews lived throughout the Arabian peninsula until the 1950s.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 17^th, 2013 at 12:03pm:

Sure, how about the fact that jews have lived in Yemen continuously until this very day. Jews lived throughout the Arabian peninsula until the 1950s.

There are no jews in Yemen  Gandalf that is a fact, i see muslims disregarding anything on wiki that does not go with their fictional views on reality.


Quote:

Preparations are being made to continue transporting the last few remaining jews from Yemen to Israel within the coming months. According to a report published earlier this month in the Yemen post, 60 jews have left Yemen since 2010 complaining of harrassment and discrimination. The jews have been forced to live in a guarded compound in the capital since they were driven from their homes by muslims in 2007. www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/164406#.Ueb70qyynXR

Why did the muslims expel the jews from their homes in Yemen, did they break a treaty?

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 17^th, 2013 at 12:32pm:

There are no jews in Yemen  Gandalf that is a fact

Baron Baron. Its almost like you make a point of acting the village idiot.

Your article is dated 2013 and states "Preparations are being made [to evacuate the remaining jews]"

As far as I know - 6 months later - at least some of those jews have yet to be evacuated.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 17^th, 2013 at 12:41pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 17th, 2013 at 12:32pm: There are no jews in Yemen  Gandalf that is a fact Baron Baron. Its almost like you make a point of acting the village idiot. Your article is dated 2010 and states "Preparations are being made [to evacuate the remaining jews]" It didn't take me long to find a more recent source that illustrates jews are still there - as of January 2013: Quote: ammran, yemen  |  A tiny Jewish community in the Yemeni province of Ammran is threatened with extinction as its members step up immigration in the face of increasing harassment. Only four families remain out of hundreds of Jews who used to live in the town of Raida, 37 miles northwest of the Yemeni capital Sanaa. These four extended families comprise the country’s largest Jewish community, no more than 100 people, according to leader Rabbi Suleiman Yahya, 45. http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/67381/yemens-dwindling-jewish-community-faces-extinction/

Is that supposed to show how muslims tolerate the yahud by persecuting them?

I edited my post that you quoted - because I incorrectly dated your article from 2010.

Jews are still in Yemen today, even if plans are afoot to evacuate the last of them.

Just be man enough to admit your mistake (and maybe apologise for abusing me about it), and lets move on shall we?  :)

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 17^th, 2013 at 12:03pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 17th, 2013 at 10:29am: Gandalf, does telling one of his successors that he "will" ethnically cleanse the entire Arabian peninsula count as a sinister plot? No, and 'ethnically cleanse' is the wrong term. They were all the same ethnicity.

What is the appropriate term? Does ethnicity mean only race?


Quote:

Sure, how about the fact that jews have lived in Yemen continuously until this very day. Jews lived throughout the Arabian peninsula until the 1950s.

Right, despite Mo's prediction, Umar only cleansed them (and all the other non-Muslims) from the Hijaz area. We have gone over this already Gandalf. It took until modern times for Muslims to fullfill Mo's prophecy for all the Jews in Arabia.


Quote:

The point is, nowhere can you find any instance where Muhammad broke the covenant, and expelled non-muslims simply because they were non-muslims.

So this makes it different from every other historical example of ethnic cleansing, which occurred in some kind of causal vacuum?

freediver wrote on Jul 17^th, 2013 at 1:51pm:

Right, despite Mo's prediction, Umar only cleansed them (and all the other non-Muslims) from the Hijaz area. We have gone over this already Gandalf. It took until modern times for Muslims to fullfill Mo's prophecy for all the Jews in Arabia.

Do you understand nothing? There are still Jews in Arabia. There are Jews today in Yemen, Qatar, Iraq, Morocco, Algeria, Palestine, Syria and probably elsewhere.

The prophesy is understood to have meant the Arab heartland which is accepted as either the Hijaz region.

The only Jews in the Arab heartland lived around the settlement of Madina. This was because they were waiting for a promised prophet to arrive there.

When a prophet arrived, only half a dozen rabbis accepted him. The rest of the Jews did not want to accept a prophet who was not from their own tribe. The remaining Jews around Madina, despite making peace treaties, continuously demonstrated hostility to the Muslims and the Islamic state.

Quote:

Do you understand nothing? There are still Jews in Arabia.

How many - outside of Israel?


Quote:

The prophesy is understood to have meant the Arab heartland which is accepted as either the Hijaz region.

Understood by whom? People who don't understand what a peninsula is? People who feel the need to re-write history so it looks like Muhammed's prophesy was fulfilled and it was therefor not some kind of instruction?