After France's first same-sex marriage, and a vote in the UK Parliament which puts England and Wales on course for gay weddings next summer, two US Supreme Court rulings expected soon could hasten the advance of same-sex marriage across the Atlantic. But some gay people remain opposed. Why?

"It's demonstrably not the same as heterosexual marriage - the religious and social significance of a gay wedding ceremony simply isn't the same."

Jonathan Soroff lives in liberal Massachusetts with his male partner, Sam. He doesn't fit the common stereotype of an opponent of gay marriage.

But like half of his friends, he does not believe that couples of the same gender should marry.

"We're not going to procreate as a couple and while the desire to demonstrate commitment might be laudable, the religious traditions that have accommodated same-sex couples have had to do some fairly major contortions," says Soroff.

Until the federal government recognises and codifies the same rights for same-sex couples as straight ones, equality is the goal so why get hung up on a word, he asks.

"I'm not going to walk down the aisle to Mendelssohn wearing white in a church and throw a bouquet and do the first dance," adds Soroff, columnist for the Improper Boston.

"I've been to some lovely gay weddings but aping the traditional heterosexual wedding is weird and I don't understand why anyone wants to do that.

"I'm not saying that people who want that shouldn't have it but for me, all that matters is the legal stuff."

The legal situation could be about to change within days, as the nine Supreme Court judges are considering whether a federal law that does not recognise same-sex marriage - and therefore denies them benefits - is unconstitutional. A second ruling will be made on the legality of California's gay marriage ban.

But while favourable rulings will spark celebrations among pro-marriage supporters across the US, some gay men and women will instead see it as a victory for a patriarchal institution that bears no historical relevance to them.

Some lesbians are opposed to marriage on feminist grounds, says Claudia Card, a professor of philosophy at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, because they see it as an institution that serves the interests of men more than women. It is also, in her view "heteronormative", embodying the view that heterosexuality is the preferred and normal sexuality.

"It's undeniable that marriage has historically also discriminated against same-sex couples," Card says.

As a result, she thinks the issue of marriage is a distraction

"Gay activists should instead put their energies into environmental issues like climate change, because there's a chance to make a morally more defensible and more urgent difference."

Others in the "No" camp oppose marriage more broadly because, they say, it denies benefits to people who are unmarried, or because they say it simply doesn't work.

Legba Carrefour, a self-styled "radical queer", calls it a "destructive way of life" that produces broken families.

"We are only one or two generations away from children coming from gay marriage that are also from broken homes," he says.

He believes a more important priority for the gay community is the rise in violence against transgendered people.

"I'm not concerned about whether I can get married but whether I will die in the street at the hands of homophobes."

Support for gay marriage among Americans in general has risen above 50% according to Gallup, but what the figure is among gay people is harder to quantify. Neither Pew Research Center nor Gallup has conducted any such polling.

A community made up of millions of people is bound to hold a range of views on any subject, but it will surprise many that some of the people who on the face of it stand to gain the most from gay marriage should oppose it. And these contrary views are not often heard.

In the UK, Daily Mail columnist Andrew Pierce says that for speaking out against gay marriage in the past, he has been attacked as a homophobe and Uncle Tom, despite a long history of championing gay rights.

He strongly believes that civil partnerships - introduced in 2005 to give same-sex couples equal legal rights - are enough.

"We've got marriage, it's called a civil partnership and I rejoice in the fact that people like me who are different from straight people can do something they can't. I relish that."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22758434

Arguments against gay marriage, used by some gay people

1. Rights are more important than a name.
2. It's a heteronormative institution that has historically marginalised homosexuality
3. Marriage is "between man and woman" and that's the best environment for children
4. It's a patriarchal, flawed institution
5. In countries that have civil partnerships, some gay people say that's enough.


All really good sensible points, I must admit.

Gay marriage legislation makes it possible, but not compulsory. If you don't want it, don't do it.

I'm opposed to gay marriage -- there I said it.
I'm also against marriage for straight people or any other type of people.
Marriage is a badly bloodied and battered institution. So it's mind-boggling when people claim that allowing gay Americans to marry will somehow tarnish the sanctity of marriage.
Tarnish the sanctity of marriage? Do the names Tiger Woods, Arnold Schwarzenegger, John Edwards, Jesse James or Anthony Weiner ring a bell?
We are way beyond "tarnishing" the institution of marriage. These people and many, many others like them have treated marriage like it's a newspaper used to housebreak a new puppy.
Certainly, gay Americans should have the same right to get married as straight people, and for two reasons: First, as various state courts have held, discrimination against Americans based simply on sexual orientation is wrong. And second, after what we straight people have done to desecrate the institution of marriage, gay marriages can only improve its image.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/06/29/obeidallah.gay.marriage/index.html

Zsa Zsa Gabor has been married 9 times
Mickey Rooney was married 8 times
Artie Shaw (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artie_Shaw) was married 8 times
Larry King has been married 8 times but only to 7 different women.
Liz Taylor was married 8 times, to 7 different men.
Celebs with 6 or more spouses:

Tony Curtis
Arlene Dahl
Jerry Lee Lewis
Norman Mailer
Martha Raye
Gloria Swanson


Among those with 5 marriages to 5 different people:

1) Judy Garland
2) Joan Crawford
3) Kenny Rogers
4) Andre Previn
5) Richard Pryor (some of them, he married multiple times)
6) Tammy Wynette (she wasn't really very good at standing by one man)
7) Martin Scorsese
8) Ginger Rogers

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So it is ok for the above people to make an absolute mockery of the institution of marriage. But if a loving couple who happen to be of the same sex want to get married then they are "tarnishing the sanctity of marriage".

Like I have always said, most if not all the gay people I know do NOT want to get married.

Good for them.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 11^th, 2013 at 8:40pm:

Arguments against gay marriage, used by some gay people 1. Rights are more important than a name. 2. It's a heteronormative institution that has historically marginalised homosexuality 3. Marriage is "between man and woman" and that's the best environment for children 4. It's a patriarchal, flawed institution 5. In countries that have civil partnerships, some gay people say that's enough. All really good sensible points, I must admit.

Bloody oath. Back in the Army, we were married to our weapons. I knew every inch of that bitch, and unlike any wife I’ve ever heard of, she loved me for it.

buggered if we needed to marry thought. That was Drill Warrant Officer Shwartz’s idea back in Kapuka.

And what a kvnt he was.

It would be interesting to know those who are passionate about Gay Marriages are actually gay

This is about gays fighting for their rights - so you'd think there would be 99% homosexuals participation

The_Barnacle wrote on Jun 11^th, 2013 at 10:16pm:

So it is ok for the above people to make an absolute mockery of the institution of marriage. But if a loving couple who happen to be of the same sex want to get married then they are "tarnishing the sanctity of marriage".

Does it then mean we allow others to participate based on the fact someone is making a mockery of the system?

Maqqa wrote on Jun 11^th, 2013 at 10:34pm:

The_Barnacle wrote on Jun 11th, 2013 at 10:16pm: So it is ok for the above people to make an absolute mockery of the institution of marriage. But if a loving couple who happen to be of the same sex want to get married then they are "tarnishing the sanctity of marriage". Does it then mean we allow others to participate based on the fact someone is making a mockery of the system?

I wouldn't have thought so.

What "others" do you have in mind?

Grendel wrote on Jun 11^th, 2013 at 10:22pm:

Like I have always said, most if not all the gay people I know do NOT want to get married. Good for them.

Most ppl, regardless of their orientation, dont want to get married when they are young. There is the odd one that does. When ppl get older and meet 'that someone' or get to where they want personally with education/ careers etc start to think about marriage. Some never do - regardless of orientation.

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 12^th, 2013 at 5:12am:

Grendel wrote on Jun 11th, 2013 at 10:22pm: Like I have always said, most if not all the gay people I know do NOT want to get married. Good for them. Most ppl, regardless of their orientation, dont want to get married when they are young. There is the odd one that does. When ppl get older and meet 'that someone' or get to where they want personally with education/ careers etc start to think about marriage. Some never do - regardless of orientation. SOB

Well that's not true.
Most women when I was younger nearly all wanted to get married.
Most gays I know are not young ie under 30.
It would seem going by the tv that most people advocating this equality crap are young <30.

Grendel wrote on Jun 12^th, 2013 at 11:33am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 12th, 2013 at 5:12am: Grendel wrote on Jun 11th, 2013 at 10:22pm: Like I have always said, most if not all the gay people I know do NOT want to get married. Good for them. Most ppl, regardless of their orientation, dont want to get married when they are young. There is the odd one that does. When ppl get older and meet 'that someone' or get to where they want personally with education/ careers etc start to think about marriage. Some never do - regardless of orientation. SOB Well that's not true. Most women when I was younger nearly all wanted to get married. Most gays I know are not young ie under 30. It would seem going by the tv that most people advocating this equality crap are young <30.

What you view on TV. Now thats a new measure.

Grendel wrote on Jun 12^th, 2013 at 11:33am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 12th, 2013 at 5:12am: Grendel wrote on Jun 11th, 2013 at 10:22pm: Like I have always said, most if not all the gay people I know do NOT want to get married. Good for them. Most ppl, regardless of their orientation, dont want to get married when they are young. There is the odd one that does. When ppl get older and meet 'that someone' or get to where they want personally with education/ careers etc start to think about marriage. Some never do - regardless of orientation. SOB Well that's not true. Most women when I was younger nearly all wanted to get married. Most gays I know are not young ie under 30. It would seem going by the tv that most people advocating this equality crap are young <30.

When were you younger? When women were supposed to want to get married? How about men?

If you are older why would you know younger gays?

30 isnt really young biologically for women (since you wanted to make it about them).

SOB

____ wrote on Jun 12^th, 2013 at 11:36am:

Grendel wrote on Jun 12th, 2013 at 11:33am: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 12th, 2013 at 5:12am: Grendel wrote on Jun 11th, 2013 at 10:22pm: Like I have always said, most if not all the gay people I know do NOT want to get married. Good for them. Most ppl, regardless of their orientation, dont want to get married when they are young. There is the odd one that does. When ppl get older and meet 'that someone' or get to where they want personally with education/ careers etc start to think about marriage. Some never do - regardless of orientation. SOB Well that's not true. Most women when I was younger nearly all wanted to get married. Most gays I know are not young ie under 30. It would seem going by the tv that most people advocating this equality crap are young <30. What you view on TV. Now thats a new measure.

The vocal minority rarely represent or echo the views of the majority.

In California, the minority were very very loud about gay marriage.
When Schwarzenegger put it to the people, the majority of Californians voted for gay marriage to be outlawed.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 12^th, 2013 at 11:41am:

____ wrote on Jun 12th, 2013 at 11:36am: Grendel wrote on Jun 12th, 2013 at 11:33am: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 12th, 2013 at 5:12am: Grendel wrote on Jun 11th, 2013 at 10:22pm: Like I have always said, most if not all the gay people I know do NOT want to get married. Good for them. Most ppl, regardless of their orientation, dont want to get married when they are young. There is the odd one that does. When ppl get older and meet 'that someone' or get to where they want personally with education/ careers etc start to think about marriage. Some never do - regardless of orientation. SOB Well that's not true. Most women when I was younger nearly all wanted to get married. Most gays I know are not young ie under 30. It would seem going by the tv that most people advocating this equality crap are young <30. What you view on TV. Now thats a new measure. The vocal minority rarely represent or echo the views of the majority. In California, the minority were very very loud about gay marriage. When Schwarzenegger put it to the people, the majority of Californians voted for gay marriage to be outlawed.

Goes without saying I thought. Minority means less than the majority.

Meanwhile minority in many cases concerning ethics, became the majority.
i.e slavery, women suffrage and human equality.

This is why marriage equality has spread from a small core support base to the majority while the those that want superiority entrenched are and will lose this ethical issue.

____ wrote on Jun 12^th, 2013 at 11:36am:

Grendel wrote on Jun 12th, 2013 at 11:33am: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 12th, 2013 at 5:12am: Grendel wrote on Jun 11th, 2013 at 10:22pm: Like I have always said, most if not all the gay people I know do NOT want to get married. Good for them. Most ppl, regardless of their orientation, dont want to get married when they are young. There is the odd one that does. When ppl get older and meet 'that someone' or get to where they want personally with education/ careers etc start to think about marriage. Some never do - regardless of orientation. SOB Well that's not true. Most women when I was younger nearly all wanted to get married. Most gays I know are not young ie under 30. It would seem going by the tv that most people advocating this equality crap are young <30. What you view on TV. Now thats a new measure.

:D :D :D

So where do you view things that don't happen around you?  ;D

ps... it is still a very small minority considering most gays don't even want it.

Have you done research on this?

How can you say that "a majority of gay poeple don't want it?"

Even if this is the case, a lot of straight people don't get married now - does this mean we should make marriage illegal?

Are heterosexuals scared that gay marriages will be more fabulous than their own?

Grendel wrote on Jun 12^th, 2013 at 5:19pm:

____ wrote on Jun 12th, 2013 at 11:36am: Grendel wrote on Jun 12th, 2013 at 11:33am: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 12th, 2013 at 5:12am: Grendel wrote on Jun 11th, 2013 at 10:22pm: Like I have always said, most if not all the gay people I know do NOT want to get married. Good for them. Most ppl, regardless of their orientation, dont want to get married when they are young. There is the odd one that does. When ppl get older and meet 'that someone' or get to where they want personally with education/ careers etc start to think about marriage. Some never do - regardless of orientation. SOB Well that's not true. Most women when I was younger nearly all wanted to get married. Most gays I know are not young ie under 30. It would seem going by the tv that most people advocating this equality crap are young <30. What you view on TV. Now thats a new measure. :D :D :D So where do you view things that don't happen around you?  ;D ps... it is still a very small minority considering most gays don't even want it.

I get my view from logic and the views around me. As a member of the gay community, your opinion sourced from your television is incorrect.

The majority of the gay community support equality, even when they individually have no interest in getting married.

Fit of Absent Mindeness wrote on Jun 14^th, 2013 at 8:55am:

Have you done research on this? How can you say that "a majority of gay poeple don't want it?" It's easy, "a majority of gay people don't want it" its easy. Even if this is the case, a lot of straight people don't get married now - does this mean we should make marriage illegal? Yep, its a huge money spinner Are heterosexuals scared that gay marriages will be more fabulous than their own?

Sounds like the Labor vs Liberals to me

____ wrote on Jun 14^th, 2013 at 9:07am:

Grendel wrote on Jun 12th, 2013 at 5:19pm: ____ wrote on Jun 12th, 2013 at 11:36am: Grendel wrote on Jun 12th, 2013 at 11:33am: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 12th, 2013 at 5:12am: Grendel wrote on Jun 11th, 2013 at 10:22pm: Like I have always said, most if not all the gay people I know do NOT want to get married. Good for them. Most ppl, regardless of their orientation, dont want to get married when they are young. There is the odd one that does. When ppl get older and meet 'that someone' or get to where they want personally with education/ careers etc start to think about marriage. Some never do - regardless of orientation. SOB Well that's not true. Most women when I was younger nearly all wanted to get married. Most gays I know are not young ie under 30. It would seem going by the tv that most people advocating this equality crap are young <30. What you view on TV. Now thats a new measure. :D :D :D So where do you view things that don't happen around you?  ;D ps... it is still a very small minority considering most gays don't even want it. I get my view from logic and the views around me. As a member of the gay community, your opinion sourced from your television is incorrect. The majority of the gay community support equality, even when they individually have no interest in getting married.

Well now you're making ass-umptions about my "community"...

I suppose you failed to read the intro post too.

I have lots of gay friends...  NONE...  I repeat...  NONE... want to get married.

I have lots of divorced friends.........none of them want to marry!
Imagine tax payers savings if marriage was banned.

Grendel wrote on Jun 14^th, 2013 at 10:55am:

____ wrote on Jun 14th, 2013 at 9:07am: Grendel wrote on Jun 12th, 2013 at 5:19pm: ____ wrote on Jun 12th, 2013 at 11:36am: Grendel wrote on Jun 12th, 2013 at 11:33am: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 12th, 2013 at 5:12am: Grendel wrote on Jun 11th, 2013 at 10:22pm: Like I have always said, most if not all the gay people I know do NOT want to get married. Good for them. Most ppl, regardless of their orientation, dont want to get married when they are young. There is the odd one that does. When ppl get older and meet 'that someone' or get to where they want personally with education/ careers etc start to think about marriage. Some never do - regardless of orientation. SOB Well that's not true. Most women when I was younger nearly all wanted to get married. Most gays I know are not young ie under 30. It would seem going by the tv that most people advocating this equality crap are young <30. What you view on TV. Now thats a new measure. :D :D :D So where do you view things that don't happen around you?  ;D ps... it is still a very small minority considering most gays don't even want it. I get my view from logic and the views around me. As a member of the gay community, your opinion sourced from your television is incorrect. The majority of the gay community support equality, even when they individually have no interest in getting married. Well now you're making ass-umptions about my "community"... I suppose you failed to read the intro post too. I have lots of gay friends...  NONE...  I repeat...  NONE... want to get married.

Sure. Did you meet or know any of them via a religious organisation?

Nope. ::)

Grendel wrote on Jun 14^th, 2013 at 10:55am:

I have lots of gay friends...  NONE...  I repeat...  NONE... want to get married.

I have no gay friends.

We had a kid who came out as gay at our school once, he was beaten to within an inch of his life and left the next day.
I had a fair idea which kids did it.

Anyway, I don't pretend to know what gays want, I don't know any (other than a previous boss in London but hes not a friend) but I do know I don't want them to marry.

It's a person view of mine, as everyone is entitled.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jun 14^th, 2013 at 9:24pm:

It's a person view of mine, as everyone is entitled.

Yeah well views on how other ppl should live their lives dont hold much weight. Especially uninformed views that were formed without even knowing any of the ppl to be effected.

SOB