To all of the luddites who say that coal is the future. Suck it up :D Hey longloser this is happening in your own state. Your house must be the only one without solar PV :D LOL

On lateline last night ;)

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2013/s3760242.htm


Quote:

KERRY BREWSTER: Joy Baluch's solar vision was not a dying woman's delusion. The solar thermal plant she wanted for her city is a reality in Spain, while Port Augusta's historic coal powerhouses are shutting. Playford is closed for good. Outside the larger northern plant, a coal train stands empty. Inside, remnant coal is being washed away, its pipes clean. Not a single kilowatt is generated here and aside for a short spurt in July, none will be for six months. For decades this has been the heart of South Australia's power generation, reaping massive and predictable profits for its owners. But coal is no longer king, and in just a few short years, this giant has been brought to its knees. JEFF DIMERY, CEO, ALINTA ENERGY: Last year we made a substantial loss out of operating the power station, so it's forced a lot of change through our organisation. KERRY BREWSTER: Alinta's CEO remembers it operating 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. JEFF DIMERY: Today, unfortunately due to the price of energy that we're receiving in the wholesale market, it's uneconomic to run for the full year. KERRY BREWSTER: And this is what's knocked off coal: the power of wind, which in South Australia on a really blowy day is capable of generating up to 70 per cent of the state's energy needs. Amazingly, that's how much was generated over several hours last month. Even the owner of the state's largest wind farm is surprised how quickly wind has ramped up. MILES GEORGE, MD, INFIGEN ENERGY: There was a lot of scepticism about whether or not in fact wind farms would be become a serious player. I mean, we were called a cottage industry 10 years ago. Growth has been quite phenomenal, really, much more than we expected, such that we're now at 25 per cent plus of wind energy generation in South Australia, which is pretty amazing, probably close to the highest in the world. KERRY BREWSTER: Bloomberg New Energy's chief analyst says coal generation is under enormous economic pressure in Victoria, NSW and South Australia. KOBAD BHAVNAGRI, BLOOMBERG NEW ENERGY FINANCE: When the wind blows, coal is no longer needed. So we've had coal-fired power stations getting mothballed and turning off because wind is just pushing them out of merit. KERRY BREWSTER: Coal also finds itself in a market of unprecedented falling demand. HUGH SADLER, ENERGY STRATEGIST, PITT AND SHERRY: Well it's sort of like they're being squeezed in a pair of jaws and the demand is coming down and the renewable generation is coming up and the coal-fired generators are ones that are being caught. KERRY BREWSTER: Look out over Adelaide and see one reason why demand is falling: rooftop solar. More than a million Australian homes - that's one in 10 - now have it. South Australia has double the average - not 10, but 20 per cent of homes - a direct hit to gas and coal generators. Rooftop solar is literally taking the power out of the market, and at the hottest time of the day, when coal and gas-fired generators have traditionally made their biggest profits. KOBAD BHAVNAGRI: On sunny days where a lot of people turn on the air-conditioners, solar PV is producing a lot of energy and really shaving the tops of those peaks that would otherwise cause energy prices to really spike in the wholesale market. KERRY BREWSTER: And there's a lot more to come, according to this installer. INSTALLER: What we're seeing at the moment is the very beginning of the uptake in the commercial space. This is - you know, this is one of the largest systems in South Australia at the moment. It'll be the first of many. We will reach a point at which solar becomes saturated in the marketplace and becomes the dominant source of energy for South Australia......

...actually Luddites were against technology.

Realists on the other hand will rely on efficiencies.

If coal is more efficient then it will be used.  If bird slaughtering wind turbines are more efficient then they will be used.

If nuclear energy smashes them all the we use nuke power.

Nothing is 'mothballed'

Suck that up..... :D

Yeah, come back and see us at this time NEXT year, and post the figures on cost per kilowatt, and any shortages or brown/black outs..

ALL forms of power generation have their own set of drawbacks. People's issues with renewable energy isn't actually about being 'Luddites' or 'in the pay of coal mining companies/fuel companies'...it's more to do with the cost per kilowatt and the subsidies given to renewable energy.


p.s, Oh, and reliability of supply

gizmo_2655 wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 1:50pm:

Yeah, come back and see us at this time NEXT year, and post the figures on cost per kilowatt, and any shortages or brown/black outs..

So where do human deaths feature on your spreadsheet of energy costs?


Quote:

ALL forms of power generation have their own set of drawbacks. People's issues with renewable energy isn't actually about being 'Luddites' or 'in the pay of coal mining companies/fuel companies'...it's more to do with the cost per kilowatt and the subsidies given to renewable energy.

The subsidies given to the mining industry and the coal industry far far outweigh the subsidies given to the renewables industry, and if the same amount of money that had been pumped into the fossil fuel industry was pumped into the renewables industry, then we would be so far ahead of where we are now, we wouldnt be playing catch up to the leaders.

Also, costs for renewables is steadily decreasing, and in some places, has reached parity with coal.



Quote:

p.s, Oh, and reliability of supply

Looks like someone is still using information from years ago. Reliability of supply can be addressed, and if you read the BZE2020 plan (you wont) you will see how.

If nuclear energy smashes them all the we use nuke power.

Well actually no, Swag, We don't go for nuclear because a fatwa has been put on it by the so-called progressives.

Actually rusty, I will confess that I have invested a bit in wind tower construction . . .well, there's nothing wrong with an each way bet.

donincognito wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 3:32pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on May 16th, 2013 at 1:50pm: Yeah, come back and see us at this time NEXT year, and post the figures on cost per kilowatt, and any shortages or brown/black outs.. So where do human deaths feature on your spreadsheet of energy costs? Quote: ALL forms of power generation have their own set of drawbacks. People's issues with renewable energy isn't actually about being 'Luddites' or 'in the pay of coal mining companies/fuel companies'...it's more to do with the cost per kilowatt and the subsidies given to renewable energy. The subsidies given to the mining industry and the coal industry far far outweigh the subsidies given to the renewables industry, and if the same amount of money that had been pumped into the fossil fuel industry was pumped into the renewables industry, then we would be so far ahead of where we are now, we wouldnt be playing catch up to the leaders.Also, costs for renewables is steadily decreasing, and in some places, has reached parity with coal. [quote] p.s, Oh, and reliability of supply

Looks like someone is still using information from years ago. Reliability of supply can be addressed, and if you read the BZE2020 plan (you wont) you will see how. [/quote]

And where does the money come from?  Mining and exporting fossil fuels has provided the wealth and the jobs required to raise the taxes.

Killing off these industries because of eco-socialist political agendas is ludicrous.  You are shooting the goose that laid the golden egg.

You foster the industries that make you the money so that you have the resources to put into cleaner methods of exploiting fossil fuels or alternative efficient energy sources.

:-?

Swagman wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 4:31pm:

donincognito wrote on May 16th, 2013 at 3:32pm: gizmo_2655 wrote on May 16th, 2013 at 1:50pm: Yeah, come back and see us at this time NEXT year, and post the figures on cost per kilowatt, and any shortages or brown/black outs.. So where do human deaths feature on your spreadsheet of energy costs? Quote: ALL forms of power generation have their own set of drawbacks. People's issues with renewable energy isn't actually about being 'Luddites' or 'in the pay of coal mining companies/fuel companies'...it's more to do with the cost per kilowatt and the subsidies given to renewable energy. The subsidies given to the mining industry and the coal industry far far outweigh the subsidies given to the renewables industry, and if the same amount of money that had been pumped into the fossil fuel industry was pumped into the renewables industry, then we would be so far ahead of where we are now, we wouldnt be playing catch up to the leaders.Also, costs for renewables is steadily decreasing, and in some places, has reached parity with coal. [quote] p.s, Oh, and reliability of supply Looks like someone is still using information from years ago. Reliability of supply can be addressed, and if you read the BZE2020 plan (you wont) you will see how.

And where does the money come from?  Mining and exporting fossil fuels has provided the wealth and the jobs required to raise the taxes.

Killing off these industries because of eco-socialist political agendas is ludicrous.  You are shooting the goose that laid the golden egg.

You foster the industries that make you the money so that you have the resources to put into cleaner methods of exploiting fossil fuels or alternative efficient energy sources.

:-?[/quote]

Why don't you ask the Germans how to run a progressive economy that doesn't rely on selling non value added polluting raw materials ? They are leaders in  renewable energy and probably half the solar PV installations in Australia use their grid tied PV inverters ;)

When are you stupid dumb aussies going to wake up and start investing in value added products instead of taking the lazy road and relying on digging sh.t out of the ground with a spade :(

Also ask Norway how they have managed to build up a 660 billion sovereign wealth fund by implementing a 78% super profits tax and Australia has just squandered this opportunity all because some suit and tie dude who runs BHP and RIO might get his nose out of joint :(

donincognito wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 3:32pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on May 16th, 2013 at 1:50pm: Yeah, come back and see us at this time NEXT year, and post the figures on cost per kilowatt, and any shortages or brown/black outs.. So where do human deaths feature on your spreadsheet of energy costs? Quote: ALL forms of power generation have their own set of drawbacks. People's issues with renewable energy isn't actually about being 'Luddites' or 'in the pay of coal mining companies/fuel companies'...it's more to do with the cost per kilowatt and the subsidies given to renewable energy. The subsidies given to the mining industry and the coal industry far far outweigh the subsidies given to the renewables industry, and if the same amount of money that had been pumped into the fossil fuel industry was pumped into the renewables industry, then we would be so far ahead of where we are now, we wouldnt be playing catch up to the leaders. Also, costs for renewables is steadily decreasing, and in some places, has reached parity with coal. [quote] p.s, Oh, and reliability of supply

Looks like someone is still using information from years ago. Reliability of supply can be addressed, and if you read the BZE2020 plan (you wont) you will see how. [/quote]

Human deaths don't 'feature' in my spreadsheet..

The coal and mining subsidies don't even come close to the renewable energy subsidies.

And, no I'm NOT using 'information from years ago'...the sun STILL doesn't shine 24/7 and the wind STILL doesn't blow 24/7. Regardless of any improvements in storage technology, Solar and Wind power are NOT reliable, constant, 24/7 power sources ...

gizmo_2655 wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 5:21pm:

donincognito wrote on May 16th, 2013 at 3:32pm: gizmo_2655 wrote on May 16th, 2013 at 1:50pm: Yeah, come back and see us at this time NEXT year, and post the figures on cost per kilowatt, and any shortages or brown/black outs.. So where do human deaths feature on your spreadsheet of energy costs? Quote: ALL forms of power generation have their own set of drawbacks. People's issues with renewable energy isn't actually about being 'Luddites' or 'in the pay of coal mining companies/fuel companies'...it's more to do with the cost per kilowatt and the subsidies given to renewable energy. The subsidies given to the mining industry and the coal industry far far outweigh the subsidies given to the renewables industry, and if the same amount of money that had been pumped into the fossil fuel industry was pumped into the renewables industry, then we would be so far ahead of where we are now, we wouldnt be playing catch up to the leaders. Also, costs for renewables is steadily decreasing, and in some places, has reached parity with coal. [quote] p.s, Oh, and reliability of supply Looks like someone is still using information from years ago. Reliability of supply can be addressed, and if you read the BZE2020 plan (you wont) you will see how.

Human deaths don't 'feature' in my spreadsheet..

The coal and mining subsidies don't even come close to the renewable energy subsidies.

And, no I'm NOT using 'information from years ago'...the sun STILL doesn't shine 24/7 and the wind STILL doesn't blow 24/7. Regardless of any improvements in storage technology, Solar and Wind power are NOT reliable, constant, 24/7 power sources ...[/quote]

Solar thermal plants are ;)

And do you use non base load renewable sunlight energy during the day ? Is it useful to you ? How much does it cost you compared to light energy from coal fired power stations ?

Sir lastnail wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 5:36pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on May 16th, 2013 at 5:21pm: donincognito wrote on May 16th, 2013 at 3:32pm: gizmo_2655 wrote on May 16th, 2013 at 1:50pm: Yeah, come back and see us at this time NEXT year, and post the figures on cost per kilowatt, and any shortages or brown/black outs.. So where do human deaths feature on your spreadsheet of energy costs? Quote: ALL forms of power generation have their own set of drawbacks. People's issues with renewable energy isn't actually about being 'Luddites' or 'in the pay of coal mining companies/fuel companies'...it's more to do with the cost per kilowatt and the subsidies given to renewable energy. The subsidies given to the mining industry and the coal industry far far outweigh the subsidies given to the renewables industry, and if the same amount of money that had been pumped into the fossil fuel industry was pumped into the renewables industry, then we would be so far ahead of where we are now, we wouldnt be playing catch up to the leaders. Also, costs for renewables is steadily decreasing, and in some places, has reached parity with coal. [quote] p.s, Oh, and reliability of supply Looks like someone is still using information from years ago. Reliability of supply can be addressed, and if you read the BZE2020 plan (you wont) you will see how. Human deaths don't 'feature' in my spreadsheet.. The coal and mining subsidies don't even come close to the renewable energy subsidies. And, no I'm NOT using 'information from years ago'...the sun STILL doesn't shine 24/7 and the wind STILL doesn't blow 24/7. Regardless of any improvements in storage technology, Solar and Wind power are NOT reliable, constant, 24/7 power sources ...

Solar thermal plants are ;)

And do you use non base load renewable sunlight energy during the day ? Is it useful to you ? How much does it cost you compared to light energy from coal fired power stations ?


[/quote]

Yes it DOES compare to energy from coal power stations...the cost of the battery packs for solar thermal station is fairly high, plus the 'environmental' cost of the battery packs...despite your 'love' of solar, you STILL need to factor in the environmental and cash cost of the battery packs...the same applies to wind power.

gizmo_2655 wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 5:47pm:

..the cost of the battery packs for solar thermal station is fairly high, plus the 'environmental' cost of the battery packs...despite your 'love' of solar, you STILL need to factor in the environmental and cash cost of the battery packs...the same applies to wind power.

The cost of battery packs for solar thermal is zero zip zilch nothing!

Solar thermal does not use battery packs, PV solar can use them.

Baronvonrort wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 6:14pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on May 16th, 2013 at 5:47pm: ..the cost of the battery packs for solar thermal station is fairly high, plus the 'environmental' cost of the battery packs...despite your 'love' of solar, you STILL need to factor in the environmental and cash cost of the battery packs...the same applies to wind power. The cost of battery packs for solar thermal is zero zip zilch nothing! Solar thermal does not use battery packs, PV solar can use them.

Ok whatever you reckon..

gizmo_2655 wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 6:59pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on May 16th, 2013 at 6:14pm: gizmo_2655 wrote on May 16th, 2013 at 5:47pm: ..the cost of the battery packs for solar thermal station is fairly high, plus the 'environmental' cost of the battery packs...despite your 'love' of solar, you STILL need to factor in the environmental and cash cost of the battery packs...the same applies to wind power. The cost of battery packs for solar thermal is zero zip zilch nothing! Solar thermal does not use battery packs, PV solar can use them. Ok whatever you reckon..

What he reckons is right.

You probably should learn something before posting

Solar thermal does not use battery packs.
Solar thermal can deliver dispatchable baseload power 24/7.
Rain, hail or shine.

eg:
http://www.solarreserve.com/what-we-do/csp-projects/crescent-dunes/
http://www.torresolenergy.com/TORRESOL/gemasolar-plant/en


Dispatchable power is something coal cannot do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispatchable_generation

Coal is all or nothing.  And when demand is low - all of the energy is wasted.

This is why the luddites need to wake up.

rabbitoh07 wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 7:11pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on May 16th, 2013 at 6:59pm: Baronvonrort wrote on May 16th, 2013 at 6:14pm: [quote author=gizmo_2655 link=1368671257/9#9 date=1368690442] ..the cost of the battery packs for solar thermal station is fairly high, plus the 'environmental' cost of the battery packs...despite your 'love' of solar, you STILL need to factor in the environmental and cash cost of the battery packs...the same applies to wind power. The cost of battery packs for solar thermal is zero zip zilch nothing! Solar thermal does not use battery packs, PV solar can use them. Ok whatever you reckon..

What he reckons is right.

You probably should learn something before posting



NO what 'he' reckons isn't 'right'.And no, I don't need to learn anything 'before I post..

gizmo_2655 wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 5:21pm:

Well, I place a value on human lives, and their health. A fairly high one, usually, but in your case im willing to change my stance. Quote: The coal and mining subsidies don't even come close to the renewable energy subsidies. Correct. The mining industry collected over $5 billion in the diesel fuel rebate alone a year or two ago. The funding given to renewables doesnt come close. [quote] And, no I'm NOT using 'information from years ago'...the sun STILL doesn't shine 24/7 and the wind STILL doesn't blow 24/7. Regardless of any improvements in storage technology, Solar and Wind power are NOT reliable, constant, 24/7 power sources ...

Clearly you are. You dont need the sun to shine 24/7 if you have a distributed grid, including solar thermal plants. I suggest reading that BZE2020 plan. Its interesting stuff.


gizmo_2655 wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 7:20pm:

NO what 'he' reckons isn't 'right'.And no, I don't need to learn anything 'before I post..

No, really, its starting to get a bit embarrassing for you. Look up the andersol plant in Spain, they are years ahead of where we are, and its goddamn Spain. They have 25% unemployment, and still recognise the need for this, and are going ahead. We have the best solar resources in the world, largely going unused.

God post Nail,
absolute proof that solar can beat coal.

gizmo_2655 wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 7:20pm:

rabbitoh07 wrote on May 16th, 2013 at 7:11pm: gizmo_2655 wrote on May 16th, 2013 at 6:59pm: Baronvonrort wrote on May 16th, 2013 at 6:14pm: [quote author=gizmo_2655 link=1368671257/9#9 date=1368690442] ..the cost of the battery packs for solar thermal station is fairly high, plus the 'environmental' cost of the battery packs...despite your 'love' of solar, you STILL need to factor in the environmental and cash cost of the battery packs...the same applies to wind power. The cost of battery packs for solar thermal is zero zip zilch nothing! Solar thermal does not use battery packs, PV solar can use them. Ok whatever you reckon.. What he reckons is right. You probably should learn something before posting NO what 'he' reckons isn't 'right'.And no, I don't need to learn anything 'before I post..

Repeating dumb things you have written things and putting them  in highlight doesn't make you right.

It just makes you sound like and idiot.

You are wrong idiot.

Solar thermal does not use battery packs, idiot.

Read the information I posted for you, idiot.

You probably should learn something before posting, idiot,

gizmo_2655 wrote on May 16^th, 2013 at 6:59pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on May 16th, 2013 at 6:14pm: gizmo_2655 wrote on May 16th, 2013 at 5:47pm: ..the cost of the battery packs for solar thermal station is fairly high, plus the 'environmental' cost of the battery packs...despite your 'love' of solar, you STILL need to factor in the environmental and cash cost of the battery packs...the same applies to wind power. The cost of battery packs for solar thermal is zero zip zilch nothing! Solar thermal does not use battery packs, PV solar can use them. Ok whatever you reckon..

game set and match f.ckhead  :D