The Hadiths, which are considered a keystone of interpretation of the Koran are being re-examined and those which have questionable legitimacy are being marked questionable by a large project being undertaken by Ankara University in Turkey.

Many here, I note accept the Hadiths, like many Muslims, without question, despite it being long known that many of the Hadiths were created out of political expediency by Muslim rulers in order to justify whatever they wanted to do.

So, will this mean that people here will stop quoting the Hadiths as being some sort of authority within Islam as far as interpreted Mohammed's teachings?

|dev|null wrote on May 7^th, 2013 at 2:50pm:

The Hadiths, which are a keystone of interpretation of the Koran. Many here, I note accept the Hadiths, like many Muslims So, will this mean that people here will stop quoting the Hadiths as being some sort of authority within Islam as far as interpreted Mohammed's teachings?

You did state the hadith is a keystone to interpreting the Quran.

The basic law of Saudi Arabia which is where Islam originated and muslims do face Mecca when praying states the hadith is part of the constitution in chapter 1 article 1.

Quote:

Chapter 1 general principles Article 1 states that "Gods book" (Quran) and the Sunnah of his prophet are the country's constitution and Arabic is the official language. www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law_of_Saudi_Arabia

As you said the hadith is a keystone to interpreting the Quran.

Well said, Baron.

HB's interest in this has nothing to do with the pursuit of academic integrity or historical fact, but rather the search for more loop-holes, escape-hatches, rationalisations, apologist nonsense, and get-out-of-jail-free cards to excuse the Muslim behaviour that so often heads our news bulletins for all the wrong reasons.

(Once again for the slow learners) ... Australia has over 150 different immigrant ethnic nationalities living amongst us, but there's only 2 or 3 that consistently make the daily news for reasons of violence and crime.

Muslims head this list as the unchallenged winners, year in and year out.

|dev|null wrote on May 7^th, 2013 at 2:50pm:

The Hadiths, which are a keystone of interpretation of the Koran are being re-examined and those which have questionable legitimacy are being marked questionable by a large project being undertaken by Ankara University in Turkey. Many here, I note accept the Hadiths, like many Muslims, without question, despite it being long known that many of the Hadiths were created out of political expediency by Muslim rulers in order to justify whatever they wanted to do. So, will this mean that people here will stop quoting the Hadiths as being some sort of authority within Islam as far as interpreted Mohammed's teachings?

HB,

Does this also mean that worldwide, moslem 'extremists' will stop quoting the [Koran and the ] Hadith as an authority, to justify their violent atrocities, committed in the name of ISLAM and 'Allah's cause' ?





THE RELIGION OF PEACE
http://thereligionofpeace.com/







"Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #001.002.026

"A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.065
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.080i




n.b.
......"He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."







"The Prophet said, "Nobody who dies and finds good from Allah (in the Hereafter) would wish to come back to this world even if he were given the whole world and whatever is in it, except the martyr who, on seeing the superiority of martyrdom, would like to come back to the world and get killed again (in Allah's Cause)." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.053


"The Prophet said, "By Him in Whose Hands my life is! Were it not for some men amongst the believers who dislike to be left behind me and whom I cannot provide with means of conveyance, I would certainly never remain behind any Sariya' (army-unit) setting out in Allah's Cause. By Him in Whose Hands my life is! I would love to be martyred in Allah's Cause and then get resurrected and then get martyred, and then get resurrected again and then get martyred and then get resurrected again and then get martyred."
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.054


"The Prophet said, "Nobody who enters Paradise likes to go back to the world even if he got everything on the earth, except a Mujahid who wishes to return to the world so that he may be martyred ten times because of the dignity he receives (from Allah)." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.072


"I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The example of a Mujahid [religious fighter] in Allah's Cause-- and Allah knows better who really strives in His Cause----is like a person who fasts and prays continuously. Allah guarantees that He will admit the Mujahid in His Cause into Paradise if he is killed, otherwise He will return him to his home safely with rewards and war booty." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.046

i.e. Muhammad is reported as saying that for a moslem, religious fighting, is the same as a religious devotion.
Jihad [religious fighting], is as if a muslim 'fasts and prays continuously'.
And that Allah guarantees that a Mujahid [religious fighter] will enter Paradise, if he is killed.i



"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111

I think this is a positive sign of reform. Many of the most evil aspects of Islam are in hadiths but not the Koran, although they do seem to have a solid foundation in the example set by Muhammed. In fact a lot of Muhammed's rulings were also done out of political expediency, so I am not sure of the basis for "marking them questionable" (whatever that means). In any case, I do hope they don't get their heads chopped off.

[quote author=Baronvonrort link=1367902215/1#1 ]
As you said the hadith is a keystone to interpreting the Quran.[/quote]

Hadiths.  There are more than one.

They have been considered a keystone.  What though, if the interpretation of a particular issue is based on one which is proven to be false?   What does that do to the interpretation?  Render it false?

Potentially, this has considerable potential to render a great many judgements invalid, with considerable roll on effect.

This rather suggests that Islam has facilities for re-interpretation of Mohammed's teachings.

Lord Herbert wrote on May 7^th, 2013 at 4:35pm:

Well said, Baron. HB's interest in this has nothing to do with the pursuit of academic integrity or historical fact, but rather the search for more loop-holes, escape-hatches, rationalisations, apologist nonsense, and get-out-of-jail-free cards to excuse the Muslim behaviour that so often heads our news bulletins for all the wrong reasons. (Once again for the slow learners) ... Australia has over 150 different immigrant ethnic nationalities living amongst us, but there's only 2 or 3 that consistently make the daily news for reasons of violence and crime. Muslims head this list as the unchallenged winners, year in and year out.

Is it because of their religion, their upbringing or failures of the system to cope with their needs?

Considering their religion actively preaches that they should obey the laws of the nation they reside in, should not steal, rape or commit violence, etc. I think it is a bit of a long stretch to ascribe their misbehaviour to the religion they purport to be following old man.

freediver wrote on May 7^th, 2013 at 7:42pm:

I think this is a positive sign of reform. Many of the most evil aspects of Islam are in hadiths but not the Koran, although they do seem to have a solid foundation in the example set by Muhammed. In fact a lot of Muhammed's rulings were also done out of political expediency, so I am not sure of the basis for "marking them questionable" (whatever that means). In any case, I do hope they don't get their heads chopped off.

As the project is based in Ankara University in Turkey that is extremely unlikely.

|dev|null wrote on May 8^th, 2013 at 12:41pm:

[quote author=Baronvonrort link=1367902215/1#1 ] As you said the hadith is a keystone to interpreting the Quran.

Hadiths.  There are more than one.

They have been considered a keystone.  What though, if the interpretation of a particular issue is based on one which is proven to be false?   What does that do to the interpretation?  Render it false?

Potentially, this has considerable potential to render a great many judgements invalid, with considerable roll on effect.

This rather suggests that Islam has facilities for re-interpretation of Mohammed's teachings.[/quote]
[/quote]


The plural of hadith is not hadiths it is hadeeth, you are showing your ignorance with Islam yet again.

How did the 600 page Qadri fatwa which outlawed Islamic terror go,if Islamic terror is not allowed then why the need for a 600 page fatwa outlawing terror?

|dev|null wrote on May 8^th, 2013 at 12:45pm:

Considering their religion actively preaches that they should obey the laws of the nation they reside in, should not steal, rape or commit violence, etc. I think it is a bit of a long stretch to ascribe their misbehaviour to the religion they purport to be following old man.

Allah does demand 20% of all war booty, why would anyone worship a god that demands 20% of all war booty?

Quote:

And know that  anything you obtain of war booty, then indeed for allah is 1/5 of it. www.quran.com/8/41

Convert or die?
www.quran.com/9/5


Quote:

The prophet of allah attacked the Banu al Mustaliq while they were inattentive and their cattle were drinking water.So their fighters were killed and the survivors (ie women and children) were taken prisoners.On that day Juwairiya was obtained. www.sunnah.com/search/banu-mustaliq

Those hadeeth even mention how muslims had sex (raped?) with those captives.

Sex slaves are halal for muslim men,Mohammad had a coptic christian sex slave called Maria-

Quote:

Islam allows a man to have intercourse with his slave woman, whether he has a wife or wives or is not married. The wife has no right to object to her husband owning female slaves or to his having intercourse with them. And Allah knows best. Islamic source-www.islamqa.com/en/ref/10382/slave

How can you be sure that those Hadiths are genuine?

Brian Ross wrote on May 10^th, 2013 at 12:13am:

How can you be sure that those Hadiths are genuine?

What makes you think Mohammad was not a prophet pretender?

Ask a muslim about how Mohammad indulged in rape pillage and plunder of the Jewish tribes which resulted in him gaining Juwairiya and Safiyya as wives, listen to them defend Mohammad's methods of finding wives.

Mecca was once a city of religious tolerance with over 360 gods worshipped at the Kaaba before Mohammad imposed the first religious dictatorship and outlawed all other gods except for his imaginary friend in the sky called allah.

Quote:

It has been narrated by Umar al Khattib that he heard the mesenger of Allah say: I will expel the jews and christians from the arabian peninsula and will not leave any but muslim. www.sunnah.com/search/expel-the-jews

The Quran is just as absurd,once upon a time Allah sent flocks of birds armed with stones to help the muslims in battles, why does Allah no longer send flocks of birds armed with stones to defend muslims?

Quote:

Have you not considered how your lord dealt with the companions of the elephant? Did he not make their plan into misguidance? And he sent against them birds in flocks Striking them with stones of hard clay And he made them like eaten straw. www.quran.com/105/ Tick boxes on left side of page and read all english translations.

Baronvonrort wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 12:52pm:

The plural of hadith is not hadiths it is hadeeth, you are showing your ignorance with Islam yet again.

It is you who show your ignorance. The plural of hadith is ahadith.

This is an important move by the Turkish scholars and a courageous one. As FD said, much of the brutality practiced in the name of Islam stems from ahadith. Stoning is the most extreme practice supported by hadith that contradicts the Quran that I am aware of. They should probably start with that one. That being said, this won't go down very well with the extremists; I predict an outpouring of Rashdie-esque fatwas in the near future (if it hasn't started already).

Quote:

As FD said, much of the brutality practiced in the name of Islam stems from ahadith.

Which one?

Which what?

Hadith? I gave an example in my post. Stoning.

Annie Anthrax wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 12:54pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on May 9th, 2013 at 12:52pm: The plural of hadith is not hadiths it is hadeeth, you are showing your ignorance with Islam yet again. It is you who show your ignorance. The plural of hadith is ahadith.

Ahadith is another way of saying it.

Are you saying all the muslims who run these websites are ignorant about Islam and you being a revert (Christians use the word convert) to Islam know it all?

www.hadeeth.webs.com

www.haqislam.org/articles/hadeeth/

www.fatwa-online.com/classicalbooks/hadeeth/0000101.htm

www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/

www.islamtomorrow.com/hadeeth.htm

www.muslimtents.com/muslimguide/13-hadeeth.html

www.inter-islam.org/hadeeth/hadeethdex.htm

There are a lot more out there, are they all ignorant about Islam?

Did you read the 600 page Qadri fatwa outlawing Islamic terror?
If Islamic terror is haram then why is there a need for a 600 page fatwa to outlaw it?
On page 6 of the Fatwa Qadri took 5:32 out of context, why do muslims always leave out the first bit which says we decreed upon the children of Israel, is it because that verse does not apply to muslims and it applies to the filthy Yahud?
www.quran.com/5/32

Annie Anthrax wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 1:00pm:

much of the brutality practiced in the name of Islam stems from ahadith. Stoning is the most extreme practice supported by hadith that contradicts the Quran that I am aware of. They should probably start with that one. That being said, this won't go down very well with the extremists; I predict an outpouring of Rashdie-esque fatwas in the near future

I think they should start with death for apostasy, Islam and the Mafia are the only cults in 2013 that execute people for the crime of leaving.

Before political correctness changed it to extremists they were called fundamentalists.

Death to Salamn Rushdie for a book,Theo Van Gogh was killed by a muslim for a movie and we saw the riots that came from cartoons and we even had muslims rioting in Australia over a youtube video that had nothing to do with us.
Islam = ideological thuggery.

To remove all confusion, it is best to refer to them as a hadeeths, which can be shortened to hadiths.

Baronvonrort wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 2:20pm:

Annie Anthrax wrote on May 11th, 2013 at 1:00pm: much of the brutality practiced in the name of Islam stems from ahadith. Stoning is the most extreme practice supported by hadith that contradicts the Quran that I am aware of. They should probably start with that one. That being said, this won't go down very well with the extremists; I predict an outpouring of Rashdie-esque fatwas in the near future I think they should start with death for apostasy, Islam and the Mafia are the only cults in 2013 that execute people for the crime of leaving.

Really?  Some very interesting cases at the moment surrounding Scientology and other cults, including Christian ones such as "The Brotherhood".  I wouldn't BTW classify the "mafia" as a "cult".   ::)


Quote:

Before political correctness changed it to extremists they were called fundamentalists.

Once people realised the difference, the language changed.  You got a problem with calling a spade a spade?   ::)


Quote:

Death to Salamn Rushdie for a book,Theo Van Gogh was killed by a muslim for a movie and we saw the riots that came from cartoons and we even had muslims rioting in Australia over a youtube video that had nothing to do with us. Islam = ideological thuggery.

Funny, I wonder how you can confuse the worship of Kali for the worship of Islam?

You appear to believe though, in guilt by association.  One Muslim commits a crime, suddenly all Muslims are to be held responsible?   This equates to the anti-Semitic idea that all Jews today are responsible for anything one Jew may have done?   ::)

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 2:32pm:

To remove all confusion, it is best to refer to them as a hadeeths, which can be shortened to hadiths.

You can do as you like. I'll continue to refer to them how I was taught.



Baronvonrort wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 2:20pm:

Annie Anthrax wrote on May 11th, 2013 at 1:00pm: much of the brutality practiced in the name of Islam stems from ahadith. Stoning is the most extreme practice supported by hadith that contradicts the Quran that I am aware of. They should probably start with that one. That being said, this won't go down very well with the extremists; I predict an outpouring of Rashdie-esque fatwas in the near future I think they should start with death for apostasy, Islam and the Mafia are the only cults in 2013 that execute people for the crime of leaving.

Weird. I left Islam yet I'm still here to talk about it. Perhaps 'they' just haven't found me yet or maybe 'they' are just relieved that I'm gone. Regardless, a good number of my closest friends are Muslim - I've never felt judged let alone threatened.

Quote:

Weird. I left Islam yet I'm still here to talk about it. Perhaps 'they' just haven't found me yet or maybe 'they' are just relieved that I'm gone.

As Abu explained, you have to do all the appropriate paperwork first. You can't just string people up from the nearest tree. That would be unIslamic.

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 4:49pm:

Quote: Weird. I left Islam yet I'm still here to talk about it. Perhaps 'they' just haven't found me yet or maybe 'they' are just relieved that I'm gone. As Abu explained, you have to do all the appropriate paperwork first. You can't just string people up from the nearest tree. That would be unIslamic.

And of course Abu was the best authority available on what is or isn't Islamic, FD?    ::)

Thats funny, I thought you just had to criticise the prophet and off goes your head. Regardless of whether you "left islam" or not.

I recall once that Abu argued that the "acting gay" would attract the penalty, as it is sufficiently outside of what Islam tolerates for the perpetrator to know it is wrong.

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 6:35pm:

I recall once that Abu argued that the "acting gay" would attract the penalty, as it is sufficiently outside of what Islam tolerates for the perpetrator to know it is wrong.

How is this different compared to what many Christian fundamentalists say and do about people who "act Gay", FD? 

There are ignorant and ill-informed people in all religions but you turn a blind-eye continuously to any but the Muslims...   ::)

Quote:

How is this different compared to what many Christian fundamentalists say and do about people who "act Gay", FD?

Jesus didn't chop anyone's head off?

freediver wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 7:34pm:

Quote: How is this different compared to what many Christian fundamentalists say and do about people who "act Gay", FD? Jesus didn't chop anyone's head off?

Jesus may not have but plenty of his followers have.

One only has to see the current issue of Gay Marriage to see what the more fundamentalists believe WRT "acting Gay". 

And yes, many Muslims are homophobic too.   They are just as wrong about that as are the Christians and the Hindus and the Buddhists, etc., etc. homophobes.

However, not all Muslims believe that.   

Quote:

One only has to see the current issue of Gay Marriage to see what the more fundamentalists believe WRT "acting Gay".

Sorry, I must have missed the bit where Abbott called for their heads to be chopped off.

freediver wrote on May 12^th, 2013 at 9:13am:

Quote: One only has to see the current issue of Gay Marriage to see what the more fundamentalists believe WRT "acting Gay".  Sorry, I must have missed the bit where Abbott called for their heads to be chopped off.

Abbot is only one commentator, FD. 

Perhaps you should try reading Cory Bernardi or Fred Nile instead?

There are plenty of homophobes who'd be quite happy to do that sort of thing.  Obviously you've never heard of "gay bashing".  Some people get murdered because of their sexuality and the murderers are funnily enough, Christians...   ::)

Quote:

Perhaps you should try reading Cory Bernardi or Fred Nile instead?

I would be happy to read them. Would you mind directing me to where they advocate chopping peoples heads off for being gay, Muslim, blasphemous or whatever. Or this this another case of what they, in your imagination, "essentially" rather than"actually" say?

Failing that, perhaps you could show me where their supporters marched through Sydney and Melbourne calling for heads to roll.

freediver wrote on May 12^th, 2013 at 7:18pm:

Quote: Perhaps you should try reading Cory Bernardi or Fred Nile instead? I would be happy to read them. Would you mind directing me to where they advocate chopping peoples heads off for being gay, Muslim, blasphemous or whatever. Or this this another case of what they, in your imagination, "essentially" rather than"actually" say? Failing that, perhaps you could show me where their supporters marched through Sydney and Melbourne calling for heads to roll.

No, they sneak through the back alleys kicking heads in of people they believe are Gay, FD...   ::)

freediver wrote on May 12^th, 2013 at 7:18pm:

perhaps you could show me where their supporters marched through Sydney and Melbourne calling for heads to roll.

Muslims marched through Melbourne calling for heads to roll? When?

My how the truth spins - especially when talking about big bad muslims. Soon we'll be hearing about how the Sydney protest wasn't the only one of its kind in the whole history of muslim settlement in Australia.

Brian Ross wrote on May 11^th, 2013 at 7:30pm:

freediver wrote on May 11th, 2013 at 6:35pm: I recall once that Abu argued that the "acting gay" would attract the penalty, as it is sufficiently outside of what Islam tolerates for the perpetrator to know it is wrong. How is this different compared to what many Christian fundamentalists say and do about people who "act Gay"?  There are ignorant and ill-informed people in all religions but you turn a blind-eye continuously to any but the Muslims...   ::)

7 countries have the death penalty for homosexuals.
These countries are-

Iran -with the ruling Islamic regime, over 4000 homosexuals executed since the Islamic revolution in 1979

Mauritania- Islam is the state religion

Saudi Arabia- The homeland of Islam, they chop your head off to cure homosexuality

Sudan-Islam is the state religion

United Arab Emirates- Islam is the state religion

Yemen-Islam is the state religion

Nigeria- (death penalty applies in 12 northern provinces with sharia law)Nigeria is half muslim half christian,the 2002 miss world riots had the religion of peace in action.

Source-www.ilga.org/ilga/en/article/1111

Baronvonrort wrote on May 13^th, 2013 at 5:07pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 11th, 2013 at 7:30pm: freediver wrote on May 11th, 2013 at 6:35pm: I recall once that Abu argued that the "acting gay" would attract the penalty, as it is sufficiently outside of what Islam tolerates for the perpetrator to know it is wrong. How is this different compared to what many Christian fundamentalists say and do about people who "act Gay"?  There are ignorant and ill-informed people in all religions but you turn a blind-eye continuously to any but the Muslims...   ::) 7 countries have the death penalty for homosexuals. These countries are- Iran -with the ruling Islamic regime, over 4000 homosexuals executed since the Islamic revolution in 1979 Mauritania- Islam is the state religion Saudi Arabia- The homeland of Islam, they chop your head off to cure homosexuality Sudan-Islam is the state religion United Arab Emirates- Islam is the state religion Yemen-Islam is the state religion Nigeria- (death penalty applies in 12 northern provinces with sharia law)Nigeria is half muslim half christian,the 2002 miss world riots had the religion of peace in action. Source-www.ilga.org/ilga/en/article/1111

And your point is?

I've already said that homophobia is wrong, no matter which religion is the basis for it.

Were you aware that there were several nations which were at least nominally Christian where homosexuality is criminalised?

Were you also aware that there are many Christians in Australia who seek to re-criminalise it?

None of them are right to do so.   >:(