Annie and Gandalf  sidestep the issue of how can Islam even reform when they chop your head off for blasphemy in some Islamic parts of the world.
Islam cannot reform while they chop heads off for blasphemy, the inablity or unwillingness of moderate muslims (allah calls them hypocrites in the quran) to confront these ass backward blasphemy laws is one reason why Islam can never reform.


Quote:

The Pakistani penal code prohibits blasphemy ,providing penalties ranging from a fine to death. Prominent figures like Salaman Taseer and Shahbaz Bhatto have been killed for their opposition to the blasphemy laws. www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law_in_Pakistan

Quote:

Taseer commented on his view about the country's blasphemy law and on filing a mercy petition for Asia Bib who was sentenced to death by a court under the blasphemy law. On 4th july 2011 one of Taseers bodyguards Qadri shot him 27 times with a MP5 sub machine gun. www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmaan_Taseer

Salman tried to defend Asia Bibi-

Quote:

Asia Bibi is a Pakistani christian woman who was convicted of blasphemy by a Pakistani court, receiving a sentence of death by hanging. www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Bibi

Indonesia is touted as being moderate, they throw you in jail instead of chopping your head off.

Quote:

He posted to an atheist facebook group stating "If god exists why do bad things happen?...There should only be good things if god is merciful" .He declared heaven,hell,angels and the devil to be myths. The posts were seen by the Indonesian council of Ulema who reported him for blasphemy On 18th january an angry mob attacked Alexander on his way to work causing police to take him into protective custody ( why didnt the police arrest the angry mob who attacked him?). On june 14 he was sentenced to 2.5 years jail and fined US$10,600 www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Aan

Islam originated in Saudi Arabia, one of the 5 pillars of Islam is Hajj which means you have to go visit Saudi Arabia if you can afford it.
The Saudi Constitution states "Gods book (quran) and the sunnah of his prophet are the country's constitution.
The Saudi royals are unislamic, there has never been any royalty in Islam before these saudi royals.
Hamza Kashgari got into a bit of strife which could see his head chopped off,I doubt moderate hypocrites like annie or gandalf will show any concern for him.
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamza_Kashgari

Islam cannot reform while it has these blasphemy laws, the moderates are called hypocrites by the allah in the quran and they have no idea or plan to remove these blasphemy laws that violate the Universal declaration of human rights.

I feel blessed that I don't live in one of those muslim crapholes. Imagine having some bunch of old cranky muslim nutjobs standing over the population just itching to get some poor woman stoned or  somebody executed for some rubbish. I'm also glad that the inbred retards that believe such rubbish are only a minute part of the australian population. Sanity prevails in the west at least.

Gandalf likes to tell us what a wonderful example of progressive Islam Indonesia is and uses it to argue that Islam is not a barrier to progress.

Yes, I heartily agree that their blasphemy laws are a blight on  Indonesia's democracy. Just like any democracy, there are challenges.

However no one can deny that the foundations of Indonesia's democracy are sound. Indonesia's rapid rejection of extremism was complete by the early 2000s, as a recent guardian article outlines:


Quote:

Against this backdrop, Indonesia's transformation into a consolidated democracy does, as Cameron suggests, offer a salutary lesson. When Indonesia's long-time military strongman-president Suharto fell in 1998, his successor was the leader of a prominent Islamic association. New Islamic parties won unprecedented influence in the new parliament elected in 1999; inter-religious violence between Christians and Muslims claimed hundreds of casualties and led to the displacement of hundreds of thousands more in 1999-2001; and the Islamist paramilitary group Laskar Jihad emerged. By 2002, a shadowy network identified as Jemaah Islamiyah had initiated a terrorist bombing campaign that went on to claim hundreds of lives in Bali and Jakarta. The alarmism turned out to be ill-founded. Islamic parties were drawn into the parliamentary process and soon abandoned calls for sharia to be inserted into the constitution, while inter-religious violence died out by the end of 2001, with the annual terrorist bombings of 2002-05 becoming increasingly infrequent and unsuccessful. Today, Indonesia, a vast, sprawling archipelago with a huge and diverse population, is a stable democracy.

"stable democracy" is as high a praise as any country could hope to get. But of course there are always problems and room for improvement. Indonesia is no exception. As the article continues:


Quote:

The shift from centralised authoritarian rule to decentralised democracy in Indonesia saw businessmen, gangsters and corrupt politicians become entrenched in parliament and regional assemblies, which scholars have described as an oligarchy represented through "money politics" and "party cartels". Centralised corruption and cronyism, therefore, were only replaced by more decentralised corruption and cronyism, as countless reports by Transparency International have shown. Religious freedom, human rights and civilian control over the military are not perfect either. Belief in a single deity is enshrined in the Indonesian constitution and all citizens are required to avow faith in one of the six recognised religions. Atheism is simply not allowed. And while Muslim-Christian violence and terrorist bombings have faded, the small Ahmadiyya minority has faced a sustained campaign of persecution.

So yes, absolutely, religious freedom is up there as one of the biggest blights and challenges for Indonesian democracy. One of problems facing a huge democracy like Indonesia is the enormous ethnic diversity - enhanced by extensive geographic fragmentation.

The problems related to religious diversity is summed up succinctly in this article:


Quote:

There are five main factors causing the decline of religious freedom in Indonesia: (1) lack of law enforcement, (2) contradictory regulations related to the protection of citizenship rights and religious minorities, (3) the spread of intolerant ideologies and hostile attitudes toward religious others, (4) the weak leadership of President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, and (5) the central government’s laissez-faire approach to local religious persecution.

Just about all these factors go to the heart of the demographic and geographic reality of Indonesian society. The central government clearly needs to take more control over regional affairs - which, according to the article, needs to start with the current president Yudhoyono being more assertive in his leadership and stamp his authority:


Quote:

The effects of Yudhoyono’s weakness are far reaching. The central and local authorities have no clear guidance from the president on the protection of religious freedom and the management of religiously based conflicts. In this vacuum, several governors, regents, and mayors have issued policies and regulations aimed ostensibly at building “religious harmony,” for instance by prohibiting Ahmadiyah and Shiite Muslim groups or closing Christian churches. Ironically, such policies are mostly based on pressure from local militant Islamists and the conservative edicts issued by the MUI (Indonesian Ulama Council). The MUI’s rulings are essentially religious legal opinions and should not be legally binding. But local administrations are increasingly committed to such edicts, regardless of how they contradict the Indonesian constitution and human rights principles. Among the five factors, Yudhoyono’s weak leadership is the most serious.

So yes, there are deep challenges for Indonesian democracy in relation to religious freedom. However given the solid foundations of the democracy, and giving credit where credit's due in terms of how far Indonesian democracy has developed in such a short period (from fully autocratic in 1999) - there is no reason to think these challenges are insurmountable.

So it is both an example of a stable Islamic democracy and also going backwards on religious freedom due to the influence of Muslim religious leaders?

On what basis do you say it is "going backwards"? I said there are challenges related to religious freedom - not that it is necessarily getting worse. Blasphemy laws predate democracy, as does the existence of intolerant and recalcitrant religious leaders.

I based it on what you quoted:


Quote:

There are five main factors causing the decline of religious freedom in Indonesia

lol - ok you make a valid point for once FD.

Though its only the opinion of the article's author - but I obviously don't know enough about the situation to dispute him.

On the other hand, a US State Department report from 2010 recognises significant improvements in religious freedom.


Quote:

There were numerous areas of improvements in religious freedom during the reporting period. Representatives of the Confucian community continued to practice their religion freely as well as obtain marriage certificates and identity cards with Confucianism listed as their religion. Local government officials in West Nusa Tenggara (NTB) recognized the marriages of Ahmadiyya followers. Officials from the NTB Department of Religion conducted weddings in the Ahmadiyya Transito Camp for Ahmadiyya couples and recorded and issued marriage certificates. Ahmadiyya followers experienced little or no difficulty registering their marriages or getting marriage certificates during the reporting period. In Maluku, despite new incidents of violence during the reporting period, leaders of both the Muslim and Christian communities and the Maluku provincial government continued to demonstrate strong commitment to easing religious tension and rebuilding the community...

read more

It must have taken you a while to pluck something positive out of that article. It makes for gloomy reading.

the state department report?

whats gloomy about it?

Pretty much the whole thing.

freediver wrote on Feb 10^th, 2013 at 12:50pm:

Pretty much the whole thing.

righto then  ::)

Though the "gloominess" or otherwise of the report is not the issue here, the issue was me coming up with some evidence that religious freedom in Indonesia is improving - which according to the report, it is.

That report was broken into many different measures of religious freedom. Although the extract itself is vague, within context it appears to be limited to only one of the measures. It does not appear to be a generalisation about all measures of religious freedom in Indonesia.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 10^th, 2013 at 10:36am:

Yes, I heartily agree that their blasphemy laws are a blight on  Indonesia's democracy. Just like any democracy, there are challenges. Quote: Religious freedom, human rights  are not perfect either. Belief in a single deity is enshrined in the Indonesian constitution and all citizens are required to avow faith in one of the six recognised religions. Atheism is simply not allowed. And while Muslim-Christian violence and terrorist bombings have faded, the small Ahmadiyya minority has faced a sustained campaign of persecution. [quote] several governors, regents, and mayors have issued policies and regulations aimed ostensibly at building “religious harmony,” for instance by prohibiting Ahmadiyah and Shiite Muslim groups or closing Christian churches. Ironically, such policies are mostly based on pressure from local militant Islamists and the conservative edicts issued by the MUI (Indonesian Ulama Council). The MUI’s rulings are essentially religious legal opinions

So yes, there are deep challenges for Indonesian democracy in relation to religious freedom..[/quote]

How many secular deomcracies have blasphemy laws and why is it that only islamic democracies like Indonesia,Iran ,etc have blasphemy laws?
Islamic ideology persecutes people worldwide for thought crimes, you should read article 18 of the universal declaration of human rights.

Indonesia is a muslim majority country with democracy and they dont allow atheism,if they outlawed and executed atheists  in the USA like they do in Islamic countries they would reduce the prison population by 2% and lose 93% of the members of the National academy of sciences.
The ahmadi muslims are persecuted by mainstream Islam for heretical reforms so anyone doing a simple google search will see what happens to those who have tried to reform Islam,if the ahamdi are persecuted for heretical reforms it proves Islam will not be reformed.

The policies for religious harmony involve closing churches and outlawing shiite and ahmadi muslims ? WTF do you call that perhaps you think that is tolerance?

Indonesia is one of the 'good' examples that gandalf uses frequently to 'prove' the benevolence of Islam.

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 10^th, 2013 at 5:20pm:

How many secular deomcracies have blasphemy laws and why is it that only islamic democracies like Indonesia,Iran ,etc have blasphemy laws? Islamic ideology persecutes people worldwide for thought crimes, you should read article 18 of the universal declaration of human rights. Indonesia is a muslim majority country with democracy and they dont allow atheism,if they outlawed and executed atheists  in the USA like they do in Islamic countries they would reduce the prison population by 2% and lose 93% of the members of the National academy of sciences. The ahmadi muslims are persecuted by mainstream Islam for heretical reforms so anyone doing a simple google search will see what happens to those who have tried to reform Islam,if the ahamdi are persecuted for heretical reforms it proves Islam will not be reformed. The policies for religious harmony involve closing churches and outlawing shiite and ahmadi muslims ? WTF do you call that perhaps you think that is tolerance?

Hence my acknowledgement that blasphemy laws are a blight on their democracy. I'm not sure what else you expect me to say. Many other muslims would be trying to justify the blasphemy laws - not me though.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 10^th, 2013 at 7:01pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 10th, 2013 at 5:20pm: How many secular deomcracies have blasphemy laws and why is it that only islamic democracies like Indonesia,Iran ,etc have blasphemy laws? Islamic ideology persecutes people worldwide for thought crimes, you should read article 18 of the universal declaration of human rights. Indonesia is a muslim majority country with democracy and they dont allow atheism,if they outlawed and executed atheists  in the USA like they do in Islamic countries they would reduce the prison population by 2% and lose 93% of the members of the National academy of sciences. The ahmadi muslims are persecuted by mainstream Islam for heretical reforms so anyone doing a simple google search will see what happens to those who have tried to reform Islam,if the ahamdi are persecuted for heretical reforms it proves Islam will not be reformed. The policies for religious harmony involve closing churches and outlawing shiite and ahmadi muslims ? WTF do you call that perhaps you think that is tolerance? Hence my acknowledgement that blasphemy laws are a blight on their democracy. I'm not sure what else you expect me to say. Many other muslims would be trying to justify the blasphemy laws - not me though.

It would be nice if you could summon up the courage and say that blasphemy laws are a blight in Islam.

But you don't have the courage for that.

Oh ok Soren, you might have missed the 15 odd page thread in which I argued exactly that.

But just so we're crystal clear here:

Blasphemy laws are a blight on islam - so says me, gandalf

Clear enough for you?

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 10^th, 2013 at 8:00pm:

But just so we're crystal clear here: Blasphemy laws are a blight on islam - so says me, gandalf

How can you get rid of these blasphemy laws when those who oppose them get killed in Islamic parts of the world?

A devout muslim will call you a munafiq (hypocrite) or even worse an apostate if you oppose gods laws.

Islam has to get rid of all punishments for blasphemy and apostasy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcvLJ3esGgc

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 10^th, 2013 at 8:00pm:

Oh ok Soren, you might have missed the 15 odd page thread in which I argued exactly that. But just so we're crystal clear here: Blasphemy laws are a blight on islam - so says me, gandalf Clear enough for you?

It would be nice to see a few hundred muslims with placards saying "Blasphemy laws are a blight on islam".
It's no use if a few hundred non-Muslims do it, they would be denounced as islamophobic.
It has to be done by Muslims. But they are too afraid of the Muslims with plackards of death threats.
If someone threatens to kill you, believe them.

Very good point, Bertram.

The distinguishing characteristic of the 'silent Muslim majority' is... er... silence.

I am looking forward to the Society of Humanist Muslims (to be established) staging a peaceful demonstration in Hyde Park, with placards like "Ostracise those who kill in the name of Mohammed' and 'Heads up, Jihadis - not in my name'.

Am I a dreamer? 

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 10^th, 2013 at 8:00pm:

Oh ok Soren, you might have missed the 15 odd page thread in which I argued exactly that. But just so we're crystal clear here: Blasphemy laws are a blight on islam - so says me, gandalf Clear enough for you?

Please go and say that in Araby, Malaysia, Egypt, Libya - anywhere where Muslim  blasphemy laws do apply. It's  blatantly cowardly and deceptive of you to say it out loud where there is absolutely no danger of any legal action against you for saying it.

All you do is confirm Muslim hypocrisy, cowardice and duplicity.

Thats quite unfair Soren. Your point was obviously directed towards those muslims in the west who you see as hypocritical for not wanting to fault muslim countries for the clear curbing of basic human rights. You assumed I was one of those muslims. I have made it clear that I am not - but rather than acknowledging that and giving credit where credit's due, you instead shift the goalposts and demand that I basically commit suicide to "prove" myself or whatever.

Very low Soren.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 7^th, 2013 at 10:25pm:

Thats quite unfair Soren. Your point was obviously directed towards those muslims in the west who you see as hypocritical for not wanting to fault muslim countries for the clear curbing of basic human rights. You assumed I was one of those muslims. I have made it clear that I am not - but rather than acknowledging that and giving credit where credit's due, Very low Soren.

g,

You are one of those moslems.

Very low gandalf.




+++


Quote:

.....you instead shift the goalposts and demand that I basically commit suicide to "prove" myself or whatever.

g,

What is your problem ???

Soren is not asking you to commit suicide.
All that you have to do [in a moslem majority country] is declare yourself a devout moslem, and no fellow moslem may lawfully harm you, and certainly not kill you.
You are a moslem, YOU KNOW THAT!

i.e.
Why are you, frightened of those people who claim to be moslems ???




Allah's law declares that moslems, must never knowingly kill another moslem.

"......If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him."
Koran 4.92, 93



Allah declares that moslems, are always 'merciful among themselves'.

"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves....."
Koran 48.29



OR, is the Koran a crock, which is openly disrespected by those claiming to be moslems ?

Yes, it is.

Yadda wrote on Mar 8^th, 2013 at 7:51am:

g, You are one of those moslems. Very low gandalf.

The indisputable and undeniable fact is that all moslems, all moslems, where they have political authority, commonly [and 'lawfully'] oppress and kill those persons who openly reveal that they do not believe what they [the moslems in authority] believe - this occurs even when those who are being 'lawfully' killed, claim to be moslems.

Yes, moslems 'lawfully' kill moslems, who do not believe what they believe.

They always have, and they always will.






Whereas, in those places where moslems have no political authority, moslems ALWAYS pretend to be inclusive, and tolerant, and supportive of the human rights of others.

But that public assertion is a lie.

It is a duplicitous moslem lie.



Because every moslem, is a moslem.

Every moslem, is a 'devout' deceiver.

Deceit in in the religious DNA of every devout moslem.

No?

Just give a moslem political power, and the real, 'honest', intolerant moslem will be revealed.

All moslems are 'low'.





Do some Googling;

Where moslems have political authority, they are tyrants, always.

"Malaysia's Prime Minister: LGBTs, liberalism, and pluralism are enemies of Islam"
"Last Malaysian Hindu temple in central Kuala Lumpur condemned, given five days to vacate"
"Malaysian temple condemned, temple staff and devotees given 15 minutes to leave"
"Malaysian government views LGBT community as a 'spreading problem' to be stopped"
"Malaysian deputy prime minister: Islam not compatible with freedom, liberal thought"
"Yet another Malaysian non-Muslim house of worship demolished"
"Malaysian state holding seminar on "threat of Christianity" "
"A message from Malaysia's king: "Muslims need to emulate Prophet Muhammad" "






+++

g,

Who would you wish to 'eliminate', if you were to ever come to political authority ?

Come on g, you can be honest with us.

Oh yes, sorry, your 'conscience' does not allow you to be honest, with the enemies of you religion.

Does it!

Yadda wrote on Mar 8^th, 2013 at 7:51am:

All that you have to do [in a moslem majority country] is declare yourself a devout moslem

I have no problem with that. Why would I?

But Soren is demanding I go and do something that will almost certainly result in my death. Why would I want to do that? Like that girl in Pakistan who insisted (correctly) that islam encourages women's education - and a got a bullet in the head for her troubles.

Blasphemy laws are a blight on islam - but I'm certainly not going to tell that to the fundies who have promised to kill anyone who says such a thing. Do you think I'm insane? Or are you going to insist that its somehow hypocritical to value your own life?

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8^th, 2013 at 8:44am:

Yadda wrote on Mar 8th, 2013 at 7:51am: All that you have to do [in a moslem majority country] is declare yourself a devout moslem I have no problem with that. Why would I? But Soren is demanding I go and do something that will almost certainly result in my death. Why would I want to do that? Like that girl in Pakistan who insisted (correctly) that islam encourages women's education - and a got a bullet in the head for her troubles. Blasphemy laws are a blight on islam - but I'm certainly not going to tell that to the fundies who have promised to kill anyone who says such a thing. Do you think I'm insane? Or are you going to insist that its somehow hypocritical to value your own life?

So you are unwilling to 'spend' your life, defending ISLAM ?

So the struggle to defend Allah's true religion, is unimportant to you ?

Surely if you are a person who is following real ISLAM, you could debate the merits of your position with those who claim to be moslems too ?




Do i think you are insane, you ask ?

Do you really claim that you are a believer in Allah's perfect religion ?
....i ask you!!!!

Ah you are a moslem who craves safety in the world, rather than obeying Allah !

Allah calls such people the 'hypocrites', rather than referring to them as moslems.

By ISLAM's own definition of a moslem, you are not a moslem.





+++


"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111





gandalf loves the cares of this world.

NOT, Allah, NOT Allah's religion.

"The Prophet said, "Nobody who dies and finds good from Allah (in the Hereafter) would wish to come back to this world even if he were given the whole world and whatever is in it, except the martyr who, on seeing the superiority of martyrdom, would like to come back to the world and get killed again (in Allah's Cause)." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.053


"The Prophet said, "By Him in Whose Hands my life is! Were it not for some men amongst the believers who dislike to be left behind me and whom I cannot provide with means of conveyance, I would certainly never remain behind any Sariya' (army-unit) setting out in Allah's Cause. By Him in Whose Hands my life is! I would love to be martyred in Allah's Cause and then get resurrected and then get martyred, and then get resurrected again and then get martyred and then get resurrected again and then get martyred."
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.054


"The Prophet said, "Nobody who enters Paradise likes to go back to the world even if he got everything on the earth, except a Mujahid who wishes to return to the world so that he may be martyred ten times because of the dignity he receives (from Allah)." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.072


"I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The example of a Mujahid [religious fighter] in Allah's Cause-- and Allah knows better who really strives in His Cause----is like a person who fasts and prays continuously. Allah guarantees that He will admit the Mujahid in His Cause into Paradise if he is killed, otherwise He will return him to his home safely with rewards and war booty." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.046

i.e. Muhammad is reported as saying that for a moslem, religious fighting, is the same as a religious devotion.
Jihad [religious fighting], is as if a muslim 'fasts and prays continuously'.
And that Allah guarantees that a Mujahid [religious fighter] will enter Paradise, if he is killed.


"A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.065
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.080i


"Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #001.002.026

Yadda wrote on Mar 8^th, 2013 at 9:51am:

Do you really claim that you are a believer in Allah's perfect religion ? ....i ask you!!!! Ah you are a moslem who craves safety in the world, rather than obeying Allah ! Allah calls such people the 'hypocrites', rather than referring to them as moslems. By ISLAM's own definition of a moslem, you are not a moslem.

gandalf,

Just to be clear......

I do NOT, challenge the fact that you are a real moslem.

I know that you are a moslem.

You are an insincere person.

You are a moslem.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 10^th, 2013 at 7:01pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 10th, 2013 at 5:20pm: How many secular deomcracies have blasphemy laws and why is it that only islamic democracies like Indonesia,Iran ,etc have blasphemy laws? Islamic ideology persecutes people worldwide for thought crimes, you should read article 18 of the universal declaration of human rights. Indonesia is a muslim majority country with democracy and they dont allow atheism,if they outlawed and executed atheists  in the USA like they do in Islamic countries they would reduce the prison population by 2% and lose 93% of the members of the National academy of sciences. The ahmadi muslims are persecuted by mainstream Islam for heretical reforms so anyone doing a simple google search will see what happens to those who have tried to reform Islam,if the ahamdi are persecuted for heretical reforms it proves Islam will not be reformed. The policies for religious harmony involve closing churches and outlawing shiite and ahmadi muslims ? WTF do you call that perhaps you think that is tolerance? Hence my acknowledgement that blasphemy laws are a blight on their democracy. I'm not sure what else you expect me to say. Many other muslims would be trying to justify the blasphemy laws - not me though.

good on you gandalf

Sprintcyclist wrote on Mar 8^th, 2013 at 10:33am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 10th, 2013 at 7:01pm: Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 10th, 2013 at 5:20pm: How many secular deomcracies have blasphemy laws and why is it that only islamic democracies like Indonesia,Iran ,etc have blasphemy laws? Islamic ideology persecutes people worldwide for thought crimes, you should read article 18 of the universal declaration of human rights. Indonesia is a muslim majority country with democracy and they dont allow atheism,if they outlawed and executed atheists  in the USA like they do in Islamic countries they would reduce the prison population by 2% and lose 93% of the members of the National academy of sciences. The ahmadi muslims are persecuted by mainstream Islam for heretical reforms so anyone doing a simple google search will see what happens to those who have tried to reform Islam,if the ahamdi are persecuted for heretical reforms it proves Islam will not be reformed. The policies for religious harmony involve closing churches and outlawing shiite and ahmadi muslims ? WTF do you call that perhaps you think that is tolerance? Hence my acknowledgement that blasphemy laws are a blight on their democracy. I'm not sure what else you expect me to say. Many other muslims would be trying to justify the blasphemy laws - not me though. good on you gandalf

You have been 'taken in' sprint.

Here, in Australia, gandalf is a, 'not me though', kind-of-moslem.





WHAT WE MUST UNDERSTAND, ABOUT MOSLEMS, IS THAT;

Every moslem, EVERY moslem, is 'a man for all seasons'.

Every moslem, EVERY moslem, is flag in the wind.

When, if the political winds change here in Australia [to favour moslems], gandalf will change, to follow the wind [gandalf will then 'become' more devout].

Moslems are not sincere people.

Moslems are 'flags in the wind'.







+++

sprint,

Q.
Who is a moslem ???

A.
Every moslem, who self declares as being a moslem, IS A MOSLEM.

Why would you doubt it ???

Google;
Shahada, confession of a muslim

"There is no god except for Allah alone; and Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah."






sprint,

ISLAM is an evil wicked philosophy.

And, moslems are people who choose to embrace ISLAM, and what ISLAM promotes in the world.

Tyranny, oppression, robbery, murder.

Moslems are people who choose to embrace ISLAM, and what ISLAM promotes in the world.

PERIOD.



+++




FROM AN ISLAMIC 'SCHOLAR' AND 'ACADEMIC', PROMOTING THE 'VIRTUE' OF ISLAM    /sarc off

"....the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood."
Sayyid Qutb


Moslems are persons who embrace ISLAM's declared criminal intent towards those who do not believe as they believe.

Being a moslem involves embracing the obligation [to Allah], that the moslem will submit himself to the tenets, the laws, and the 'ideals', which ISLAM promotes in the world.

And, by declaring [and, by continuing to declare];

"I am a moslem.";

.....every moslem, is directly associating themselves with what ISLAM promotes and encourages [as a philosophy], and they are thereby associating themselves with those acts which are purposefully being done, 'in the name of Allah'.






+++

2 Chronicles 19:2
And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat, Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD.

Be afraid Yadda... be very very afraid. We are all under the beds - *YOUR* beds. You are never safe, we are out to get you - thats *YOU* Yadda - you are in our crosshairs (or should I say our scimatar blade?)

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/98293/2410967-be_afraid_be_very_afraid_1.jpg

He's right though, Gandalf. You have to admit. Every Muslim, every Muslim, is a man for all seasons.

freediver wrote on Feb 10^th, 2013 at 9:33am:

Gandalf likes to tell us what a wonderful example of progressive Islam Indonesia is and uses it to argue that Islam is not a barrier to progress.

Looks like Gandalf's become your new Abu, FD.

You must admit though, the times have changed since the good old days of Abu's impending Caliphate.

Every Muslim, every Muslim, is a flagwaver.

Whatever that means.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8^th, 2013 at 1:08pm:

Be afraid Yadda... be very very afraid. We are all under the beds - *YOUR* beds. You are never safe, we are out to get you - thats *YOU* Yadda - you are in our crosshairs (or should I say our scimatar blade?)

You would like that.

But i do not fear or have respect for anyone declares themselves to be a moslem.

Wary of.

....because i am informed.







Allah's Apostle said,
"I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy)...."
hadith/bukhari #004.052.220

".....I have been given superiority......; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies):....."
hadithsunnah/muslim/ #004.1062


"It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land....."
Koran 8.67

Koran [8:67 above] meaning here, first moslems should beleaguer and slaughter their enemies in the land, to terrorise, to cower them.

And then later, moslems will more easily be able to defeat, and enslave a pliant, fearful enemy people.i

IMAGE
http://photo.outlookindia.com/images/gallery/20100512/madrid_blast_20100524.jpg
MADRID, 2004
Be afraid,... be very very afraid


IMAGE
http://barenakedislam.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/ogrish-dot-com-madrid-train-bombing-aftermath-3.jpg
MADRID, 2004
Be afraid,... be very very afraid


IMAGE
http://cdn.lightgalleries.net/4bd5ebf7a53f0/images/Madrid_Train_bombings_01-01-2.jpg
MADRID, 2004
Be afraid,... be very very afraid


Google images;
madrid train bombing 2004




ISLAM has the sanction from Allah, to murder all of mankind, if they reject Allah's perfect religion.

Wary of.

The death cult, called ISLAM.

And, moslems choose to associate themselves, with ISLAM.

Q.
Why do moslems choose to associate themselves, with ISLAM?

Is it because moslems are ignorant, about the tenets and laws of ISLAM ??????

I do not think so.






"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

That was you, Gandalf, man of all seasons, flagwaver, infidel.

Sorry, that was you, Moslem. kuffir, Yadda has been informed.

For thine is the Kingdom, the power and the glory, for ever and ever...

Yadda has been informed.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8^th, 2013 at 8:44am:

Yadda wrote on Mar 8th, 2013 at 7:51am: All that you have to do [in a moslem majority country] is declare yourself a devout moslem I have no problem with that. Why would I? But Soren is demanding I go and do something that will almost certainly result in my death. Why would I want to do that? Like that girl in Pakistan who insisted (correctly) that islam encourages women's education - and a got a bullet in the head for her troubles. Blasphemy laws are a blight on islam - but I'm certainly not going to tell that to the fundies who have promised to kill anyone who says such a thing. Do you think I'm insane? Or are you going to insist that its somehow hypocritical to value your own life?

What about all the Muslims who got wound up about the internet video about Muhammed, or the Danish cartoons?

Them too. The whole lot of them - informed. Seasons. Flagwavers.

Sorry, flagburners. Whatever they do with flags at any rate - they certainly aren’t boy scouts. We know that much.

You, Mr Moslem, you are the kuffir.

Google Malaysia’s Prime Minister on homosexuality.

And be afraid. That’s the main thing.

Karnal wrote on Mar 8^th, 2013 at 10:21pm:

Them too. The whole lot of them - informed. Seasons. Flagwavers. Sorry, flagburners. Whatever they do with flags at any rate - they certainly aren’t boy scouts. We know that much. You, Mr Moslem, you are the kuffir. Google Malaysia’s Prime Minister on homosexuality. And be afraid. That’s the main thing.

Be afraid, be very afraid,     of disinformation.

Disinformation, your name is Karnal.




The purpose of disinformation, is to leave people in ignorance [about any particular issue].

Why ?

Q.
Why does someone, or some group want to have people in ignorance [about any particular issue].

A.
So that the general public will be always confused and and uninformed, and therefore those who are confused and and uninformed, will be unable to make informed choices, and to act in an informed way, in their own best interests.





Karnal does not want anyone to be informed, especially about the nature and intents of ISLAM/moslems.

Karnal wants everyone to be confused and uninformed about the nature and intents of ISLAM/moslems.

People who are confused and and uninformed CAN BE MORE EASILY LIED TO, AND THEREBY BE MORE EASILY MANIPULATED BY OTHERS.

I beg to differ, Yadda. I think Karnal wants everyone to be informed about seasons, flagwaving, Malaysia’s prime minister on hommersexuality and Mr Moslem.

Shall we ask the others?

What does everyone else think?

Is disinformation’s name Karnal?

Think about it, think about what motivated the actions of 'persons', which resulted in what is displayed in those 'graphic' images in post #33.





Those acts are occurring everyday around the world, particularly in moslem majority jurisdictions [N. Nigeria, Somalia, Pakistan, Iraq, Indonesia, in Australia the 'wanna-be' Holsworthy barracks terror plot].

Those acts of mayhem and terrorism were all planned and conducted by moslems, against others who don't believe what they believe.

Why ???

Because those acts of mayhem and terrorism [planned and conducted by moslems], all have the sanction of religious ISLAM!

Those acts of mayhem and terrorism, directed against 'disbelievers', were all 'lawful' acts, to moslems.

To kill a 'disbeliever' is the same 'morality', to a moslem, as to kill cattle.

Within the moslem community, in Australia, we have people who believe that they are sanctified, by their religion, to kill those who disrespect their ISLAMIC tenets and their ISLAMIC law.



Why are we allowing moslems, who believe such things, live among us ???

If we allow moslems, who believe such things, to live among us, their influence, in living among us, WILL CHANGE OUR SOCIETY FOR THE WORSE.



Moslems who are living among us, believe that it is 'lawful' for a moslem to murder us, if we 'disrespect' their ISLAMIC tenets and their ISLAMIC law, because we CHOOSE to have a different opinion.




+++


FROM AN ISLAMIC 'SCHOLAR' AND 'ACADEMIC', PROMOTING THE 'VIRTUE' OF ISLAM    /sarc off

"....the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood."
Sayyid Qutb



To kill a 'disbeliever' is the same as to kill cattle, all 'disbelievers' who reject ISLAM, are Allah's enemies.

Moslems ARE TAUGHT BY THEIR RELIGION, AND MOSLEMS BELIEVE, that they can lawfully murder the 'disbelievers'.


Attack on London 'inevitable'
April 19, 2004
"We don't make a distinction between civilians and non-civilians, innocents and non-innocents. Only between Muslims and unbelievers. And the life of an unbeliever has no value. It has no sanctity."
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/04/19/1082326119414.html?from=storyrhs&oneclick=truei+++

"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98


"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11


"...And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of [i.e. for] those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?...Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan:.."
Koran 4.74-76


"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111


"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him;...."
Koran 3.85


"And fight with them until.....religion should be only for Allah,..."
Koran 2.193


"Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' ...."
hadithsunnah/bukhari #004.052.196

Karnal wrote on Mar 9^th, 2013 at 9:15am:

I beg to differ, Yadda. I think Karnal wants everyone to be informed about seasons, flagwaving, Malaysia’s prime minister on hommersexuality and Mr Moslem. Shall we ask the others? What does everyone else think? Is disinformation’s name Karnal?

You are a little man Karnal.

You are a low person.

In this forum
you peddle disinformation,
you try to suppress accurate information, and
you try to encourage ignorance
about what ISLAM encourages in its adherents.

And you are promoting ignorance [and thereby, our confusion] about the intent of ISLAM and moslems.

What do you think, friends? Is Karnal a sinister peddler of disinformation? A double agent? A snake in the grass?

Stay reading, friends.

For all artificial limbs and surgical suppies, come to Khan and Co, 4136 Karl Marx Avenue Kabul.

10% off if you mention ad.

Karnal wrote on Mar 9^th, 2013 at 9:39am:

What do you think, friends? Is Karnal a sinister peddler of disinformation? A double agent? A snake in the grass? Stay reading, friends. For all artificial limbs and surgical suppies, come to Khan and Co, 4136 Karl Marx Avenue Kabul. 10% off if you mention ad.

K,

With your inanity you are disrespecting the lost lives of all those persons who were murdered - those dead persons, displayed in those 'graphic' images in post #33.

And you are disrespecting the lost lives of all those persons who are being murdered every day, in markets, and mosques, and bus stations around the world,   ....by moslems.

Moslems are murdering, slaughtering, 'disbelievers'.




And as an act of conscience, to stir the conscience of others, i remind people, on this forum.

And you reply,     ....with inanity.



Again, you are a low person, Karnal.

Karnal wrote on Mar 9^th, 2013 at 9:39am:

What do you think, friends? Is Karnal a sinister peddler of disinformation? A double agent? A snake in the grass? Stay reading, friends. For all artificial limbs and surgical suppies, come to Khan and Co, 4136 Karl Marx Avenue Kabul. 10% off if you mention ad.

You do have a habit of touching on genuine issues, then doing the 'bait and switch' thing or retreating to mockery once it gets too hard.

True, FD. Yadda had me up against the ropes there for a minute, but I made it away in time for the bell.

In the next round I plan to touch on Malaysia’s PM on homosexuality, Mr Moslem being the Kuffir and if I can, the supposed health benefits of camel urine.

I may also throw in that Gandalf is responsible for the Madrid bombings - well, and myself through my evil Musel appeasement. Apparently I’m the Kuffir too.

Stay reading, friends.

Actually I think you do reasonably well against Yadda.

Yes, FD, but Yadda has superior morality. He has so much love for humankind he can’t contain it.

Look at the victims of the Madrid bombing. Yadda loves them so much he wants to reveal their dead and dismembered bodies in remembrance.

Karnal wrote on Mar 9^th, 2013 at 2:54pm:

Yes, FD, but Yadda has superior morality. He has so much love for humankind he can’t contain it. Look at the victims of the Madrid bombing. Yadda loves them so much he wants to reveal their dead and dismembered bodies in remembrance.

.....while Karnal wants to 'brush under the carpet' all remembrances of the wrong doings of moslems, so that no one can readily bring to mind the violent behaviour and outrages WHICH MOSLEMS DO EVERY DAY SOMEWHERE IN THE WORLD, and which moslems justify [among themselves] in their religion.



THE RELIGION OF PEACE
http://thereligionofpeace.com/





Why shouldn't we 'disbelievers' keep talking about the violence and outrages which moslems justify [among themselves] with their religion ?



The title of this thread....
"Blasphemy laws an impediment to Islamic reform"

How can there be reform within ISLAM, if the outrage and the evil behaviour [which moslems justify, among themselves, in their religion], cannot be laid before moslems - to be justified and explained, AND, so that moslems can explain to us where the responsibility for this behaviour lays, on the part of ISLAM ???

Is it because moslems know that they cannot rationally justify [to non-moslems] their moslem violence and outrages towards 'disbelievers' ?

So instead, while secretly justifying their violent behaviour towards 'disbelievers' among themselves, moslems deny all responsibility for the behaviour of people claiming to be moslems, and, moslems declare their own victim-hood, for having such charges of wrong doing laid at their door.




+++


Karnal,

Why can't you and your ilk, be more like pansi ?       :P


pansi wants to expose all of the wrong doers, who hide behind a religious veil ?


Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Nov 14^th, 2012 at 7:16pm:

Any church going person who has seen or heard of anything relating to child abuse should come forward now. Any suspicious activities should be reported, even if it leads to nothing, it's better to have it out in the open.

We should all follow the lead, and the example of pansi1951.

Who unashamedly declares, that we shouldn't let wrong doers hide behind their religion!!      :P

Yes, Yadda, Pansi1951 seems to be saying that mandatory reporters in the church should report child abuse like everyone else.

I agree. If a Moslem is suspected of child cannibalism or being a vampire or witchdoctor or whatever, they should not be able to use their black magick to get out of it.

I think this should be in the constitution, Y, don’t you?

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 7^th, 2013 at 10:25pm:

Thats quite unfair Soren. Your point was obviously directed towards those muslims in the west who you see as hypocritical for not wanting to fault muslim countries for the clear curbing of basic human rights. You assumed I was one of those muslims. I have made it clear that I am not - but rather than acknowledging that and giving credit where credit's due, you instead shift the goalposts and demand that I basically commit suicide to "prove" myself or whatever. Very low Soren.

Not at all. My point is well made: if you do think that these Islamic blasphemy laws are a blight on Islam - what are you doing about them? You are a Muslim, it is your problem.

I want to see you on the streets, telling the jihadi boys to get nicked and that they are not speaking for you when they are rampaging through the city with behead this and that placards.

But instead you and every other so-called moderate Muslim will expend endless time and effort on blaming everyone else for the state that Islam is in. You do nothing about the blighted blasphemy laws because you are afraid to actually do anything. You are afraid of the very guys who rampage through every city nowadays, in the name of Mohammed. You don't have to go to Riyadh any more to be intimidated by crazy bearded jihadi bastards. You are intimidated by them in your own city, be that Sydney, Melbourne, Copenhagen, Paris, London.

Blasphemy laws are a blight on your religion to the extent that you are afraid to raise your voice against them anywhere and everywhere.

And that fear and sense of intimidation is what we are importing with every Muslim who enters the West. Far from breathing free, you bring and spread your fears here because you are too bloody cowardly to stand up against what is supposed to be a minority but which is in in truth most of you. You might not be rampaging and carrying a placard in Hyde Park but you are cowering in fear. You are a useless coward like the rest of the Muslims who do not stand up against the jihadis.

Karnal wrote on Mar 9^th, 2013 at 10:43pm:

Yes, Yadda, Pansi1951 seems to be saying that mandatory reporters in the church should report child abuse like everyone else. I agree. If a Moslem is suspected of child cannibalism or being a vampire or witchdoctor or whatever, they should not be able to use their black magick to get out of it. I think this should be in the constitution, Y, don’t you?

K,

Do you believe that with a reply like the above, it will convince people who read your post(s) that you are a reasonable and rational person ?

:P





Because you do like 'to put it about', that you are one of the most rational people here on OzPol.

Don't you ?

LOL

Y,

I can assure you, I have never "put out" anything in my life. I am most grateful to have been adequately trained to "keep it in", thank you very much.

If you prefer reasonable, I suggest you direct your thoughts to the old boy above.

Good show.

Karnal wrote on Mar 9^th, 2013 at 11:33pm:

Y, I can assure you, I have never "put out" anything in my life. I am most grateful to have been adequately trained to "keep it in", thank you very much. If you prefer reasonable, I suggest you direct your thoughts to the old boy above. Good show.

Thank you, PP, good show. Keep it real, keep it edgy, keep it in. Anal retention, innit. What gets up the arse stay up the arse.  Isn't it, you silly bvgger.

You’re trying to tempt me, old boy, but I really couldn’t eat another thing.

Er, you’ve got some on your trousers, old chap. Turn around.

Oh. You’ve still got the toilet paper hanging out. You’re meant to flush that away.

No, it’s not serving paper - you’re meant to, you know, wipe up with it.

I know, I know, we learn something new each day.

i had the misfortune to hear a muslim cleric on the radio this morning talking about the latest drunk christian in pakistan who apparently insulted the prophet.

i thought his way of putting it was quite revealing

"this christian man has MADE THE PEOPLE VERY ANGRY"

this is not acceptable from a modern perspective.

if a man perpetrated domstic violence on a woman and used as his defence  "this woman made me very angry"  the judge would, quite rightly, not accept this as in any way a valid defence.

civilized people are responsible fro containing their anger.  it is not now and never will be acceptable to pin ones emotional state on another.  this is just an abrogation of personal responsibility and the muslim world does need to be teased and satirised and tormented (as the christian world has been ) until they can rise above this and show they are bigger men.

at the moment, they look weak, feeble minded and follish

aquascoot wrote on Mar 10^th, 2013 at 4:02pm:

at the moment, they look weak, feeble minded and foolish

Emotional cripples. It's either uncontrollable rage or uncontrollable insh'allah and scraping and bowing.

Yes, old boy, but you shouldn’t knock the customers, as it were. Think of all the sh!t you could dish up to them.

Delicious, nutricious, and a potential cash cow.

Bon apetite!

Soren wrote on Mar 9^th, 2013 at 10:51pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 7th, 2013 at 10:25pm: Thats quite unfair Soren. Your point was obviously directed towards those muslims in the west who you see as hypocritical for not wanting to fault muslim countries for the clear curbing of basic human rights. You assumed I was one of those muslims. I have made it clear that I am not - but rather than acknowledging that and giving credit where credit's due, you instead shift the goalposts and demand that I basically commit suicide to "prove" myself or whatever. Very low Soren. Not at all. My point is well made: if you do think that these Islamic blasphemy laws are a blight on Islam - what are you doing about them? You are a Muslim, it is your problem. I want to see you on the streets, telling the jihadi boys to get nicked and that they are not speaking for you when they are rampaging through the city with behead this and that placards. But instead you and every other so-called moderate Muslim will expend endless time and effort on blaming everyone else for the state that Islam is in. You do nothing about the blighted blasphemy laws because you are afraid to actually do anything. You are afraid of the very guys who rampage through every city nowadays, in the name of Mohammed. You don't have to go to Riyadh any more to be intimidated by crazy bearded jihadi bastards. You are intimidated by them in your own city, be that Sydney, Melbourne, Copenhagen, Paris, London. Blasphemy laws are a blight on your religion to the extent that you are afraid to raise your voice against them anywhere and everywhere. And that fear and sense of intimidation is what we are importing with every Muslim who enters the West. Far from breathing free, you bring and spread your fears here because you are too bloody cowardly to stand up against what is supposed to be a minority but which is in in truth most of you. You might not be rampaging and carrying a placard in Hyde Park but you are cowering in fear. You are a useless coward like the rest of the Muslims who do not stand up against the jihadis.

I am on gandalfs side here.
give credit where credit is due.
well done gandalf, you have spoken on soemthing you believe could be improved.
I do not expect you to 'committ suicide' to prove you disagree with anything.

Karnal wrote on Mar 10^th, 2013 at 8:11pm:

Yes, old boy, but you shouldn’t knock the customers, as it were. Think of all the sh!t you could dish up to them. Delicious, nutricious, and a potential cash cow.

Moslems in the UK; 'Been there, done that!'.

Innit!


Google;
food jihad, muslim shop-owners UK, serve feces food to infidels


Google;
Poisoning the Infidels with Feces in UK and US


Fancy a kebab ?

Its halal, honest!!!!

Karnal wrote on Mar 10^th, 2013 at 8:11pm:

Yes, old boy, but you shouldn’t knock the customers, as it were. Think of all the sh!t you could dish up to them. Delicious, nutricious, and a potential cash cow. Bon apetite!

I am dishing it up. You are gobbling it up. You are the customer base for sh!it sandwiches. I am just pointing out to you where you can have your feed, you sad old poof.

Soren wrote on Mar 10^th, 2013 at 8:30pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 10th, 2013 at 8:11pm: Yes, old boy, but you shouldn’t knock the customers, as it were. Think of all the sh!t you could dish up to them. Delicious, nutricious, and a potential cash cow. Bon apetite! I am dishing it up. You are gobbling it up. You are the customer base for sh!it sandwiches. I am just pointing out to you where you can have your feed, you sad old poof.

Come come, old chap, don’t be so modest. We’ve all seen you, squatting and straining over the
plate. You make a real effort so that all your customers can go away feeling satisfied.

And we do, dear boy. Keep it up.

Yadda wrote on Mar 9^th, 2013 at 9:24am:

Think about it, think about what motivated the actions of 'persons', which resulted in what is displayed in those 'graphic' images in post #33. Those acts are occurring everyday around the world, particularly in moslem majority jurisdictions [N. Nigeria, Somalia, Pakistan, Iraq, Indonesia, in Australia the 'wanna-be' Holsworthy barracks terror plot]. Those acts of mayhem and terrorism were all planned and conducted by moslems, against others who don't believe what they believe.....

Google;
hostage killings in Nigeria 'cold blooded murder'


But what about ISLAM's direct responsibility in inspiring this latest slaughter of 'disbelievers' in Nigeria ?

Will the media make the connection between these acts of slaughtering infidels, and the inspiration for such acts that are found within ISLAMIC texts ???




e.g.
In what sense are those Jihadists in Nigeria, fighting for ISLAM, and for Allah's cause ????

What could possibly be motivating moslems in Nigeria, to slaughter those 'disbelievers' who came into their power [i.e. non-moslem captives] ?



FROM AN ISLAMIC 'SCHOLAR' AND 'ACADEMIC', PROMOTING THE 'VIRTUE' OF ISLAM    /sarc off

Quote:

"....the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood."

Sayyid Qutb




Quote:

"......He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."

"I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The example of a Mujahid [religious fighter] in Allah's Cause-- and Allah knows better who really strives in His Cause----is like a person who fasts and prays continuously. Allah guarantees that He will admit the Mujahid in His Cause into Paradise if he is killed, otherwise He will return him to his home safely with rewards and war booty." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.046

i.e. Muhammad is reported as saying that for a moslem, religious fighting, is the same as a religious devotion.
Jihad [religious fighting], is as if a muslim 'fasts and prays continuously'.
And that Allah guarantees that a Mujahid [religious fighter] will enter Paradise, if he is killed.


"A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.065
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.080i


"Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #001.002.026

Y, maybe you could post some pictures of the dead bodies in remembrance. It would put the debate into context and help the grieving relatives come to terms with such pointless death.

Karnal wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 9:17am:

Y, maybe you could post some pictures of the dead bodies in remembrance. It would put the debate into context and help the grieving relatives come to terms with such pointless death.

#1,
OK.
But can you provide me with a link to the pic's ?, and then i will post them for you.

#2,
Then you do agree that such slaughtering of other human beings [not unlike themselves] is senseless, and unfathomable ?



p.s.
Your efforts re #2, would be better effected if such sensibilities [your own] were directed to the local followers of that death cult, ISLAM.....

"Hey! Why do you moslems persist in 'conducting' such pointless deaths [i.e. the slaughtering], of people who do not believe what you believe ?"

Good question, Y. Why are people so mean to each other?

What's the best solution? Do you think we should murder them all before they murder us?

Where shall we start? The Malaysians?

We could liberate all the GLBTs.

Yadda wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 9:46am:

Karnal wrote on Mar 11th, 2013 at 9:17am: Y, maybe you could post some pictures of the dead bodies in remembrance. It would put the debate into context and help the grieving relatives come to terms with such pointless death. #1, OK. But can you provide me with a link to the pic's ?, and then i will post them for you. #2, Then you do agree that such slaughtering of other human beings [not unlike themselves] is senseless, and unfathomable ? p.s. Your efforts re #2, would be better effected if such sensibilities [your own] were directed to the local followers of that death cult, ISLAM..... "Hey! Why do you moslems persist in 'conducting' such pointless deaths [i.e. the slaughtering], of people who do not believe what you believe ?"

Questions K,

#1,
Should we be outraged and offended that moslems will JUSTIFY the slaughter of other human beings who do not believe what they believe ?

OR,


#2,
Should we be outraged and offended because i am willing to show you the images of those human beings who were slaughtered by moslems ?

Human beings who were slaughtered by moslems, because they [those other human beings] did not believe what moslems believe ?




K,

What is the greatest evil ?

To do evil ?

OR, to point to the evil, and ask 'why' ?

Why are we tolerating people [living among us] who want to do this ?





Because i criticise an evil philosophy, which sanctions the slaughter of other human beings, i am condemned by you, K.

Aren't i ???








Whereas, ISLAM gives moslems the sanction to murder other human beings, who do not believe what they believe.

And you choose to give the moslems [who live among us] a 'pass'.

In effect, you are saying that moslems may murder and slaughter those who 'offend' then, WITHOUT ANY CRITICISM FROM PEOPLE SUCH AS YOURSELF.

Why is that, K ?

I don't know, Y. I'm still wondering how we can smuggle the suicide vests into Malaysia. Should we charter a boat? Maybe we could turn up to Malaysia, claim asylum, live in the community for a few years, and then - presto - press the ignition and take out a few.

No, that wouldn't work - Malaysia isn't a signatory to the UNHCR. They'd just leave us festering in our makeshift huts.

Could we hijack a plane and fly it into KL's World Trade Centre? Talk about symbolic. We could get the Malays back for September 11.

Nice idea, but the new security measures make it pretty hard. I can't even get a pair of nail clippers onto a plane these days.

How about assassins? We could get a few highly educated spies to apply for jobs in the Malaysian civil service, work their way up until they're in Anwar Ibrahim's office, then - when he least expects it - pull out the blade and get to work.

I like this idea. Problem is, we'd only be getting a few at a time. To be successful, we need to take out ALL the Malaysians, and there are quite a few.

What's the best way do you think?

FACT;
ISLAM, gives moslems the sanction to murder other human beings, who do not believe what they believe.


FACT;
Moslems choose to belong to, and to associate themselves with, ISLAM.





FROM ISLAMIC LAW

"Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."...."
fiqhussunnah/#3.110

n.b.
"Whoever......becomes an unbeliever.....his blood may legally be spilled."




FROM THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED

"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260







Q.
Why do moslems want to embrace a philosophy which declares that it is 'lawful' for moslems to slaughter other human beings, who do not believe what they believe ?

Q.
And consequently, why should i give any moslem a 'pass' ?


I don't.

Yadda wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 11:20am:

FACT; ISLAM, gives moslems the sanction to murder other human beings, who do not believe what they believe.

Ah yes, but SECURITY and the WAR ON TERROR gives us the sanction to murder other human beings who do not believe what we believe - particularly about hommoersexuals and the pace of Islamic reform.

Well actually, Malaysia's prime minister agrees with you on hommersexuals, but that's not the point. Anwar ibrahim agrees on the need for reform, but that's not the point either.

The point is these people are Moslems and must be killed. Anyone who disagrees with this is on their side and is considered to be the lowest of the low.

I'm not sure what the punishment for them should be - Eternity in hell?

FACT.

Karnal wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 11:45am:

Yadda wrote on Mar 11th, 2013 at 11:20am: FACT; ISLAM, gives moslems the sanction to murder other human beings, who do not believe what they believe. ....The point is these people are Moslems and must be killed.

<--------   n.b. Karnal said.

Exactly. Which means we should all be killed. The Moslems, the appeasers, the lowest of the low, along with everyone else who gets in the firing line.

I hope Jesus returns soon, Y. I'm sure He'll put a stop to all this nonsense.

about what % of muslims in a place like pakistan , do you reckon, would try to physically harm you if you said something derogatory about the prophet?

i'd just have a wild guess and say 50 %  (probably about 50,000,000 people (thats a guesstimate)

about what % of christians would try to physically harm you in a catholic place like say the phillipines, if you said something blasphemous about JC
my guesstimate would be less than 1 %.

the muslim world has got a huge credibility problem karmal , if they wish to integrate into a secular world.
if they dont wish to integrate, then we still have a huge political problem.

the moderate muslims need to come down on the radicals like a ton of bricks.  until they do, they are will have a lot of trouble being taken seriously.

i see even the old pacifist buddhists in burma have had enough and are kicking the muslims out.  the muslim brothers  need to modernise in a hurry , the world is becoming a smaller place and "good fences make good neighbours" probably doesnt apply anymore. ;)

The point is, that Karnal is ostensibly advocating the murder of people who are moslems.





OR, is Karnal 'playing' the part of an agent provocateur in this public forum ???
....because Karnal has no sincere opinions of his own which he is willing to reveal in this public forum ???

Why so ?

Because Karnal is not interested in promoting free and open debate in this public forum.

Karnal is a person who is only interested in promoting subterfuge in this public forum.

THAT, is my opinion.


Dictionary;
subterfuge = = a trick or deception used in order to achieve one’s goal.








Yadda wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 11:49am:

Karnal wrote on Mar 11th, 2013 at 11:45am: Yadda wrote on Mar 11th, 2013 at 11:20am: FACT; ISLAM, gives moslems the sanction to murder other human beings, who do not believe what they believe. ....The point is these people are Moslems and must be killed. <--------   n.b. Karnal said.

Yadda wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 12:07pm:

[size=14] OR, is Karnal 'playing' the part of an agent provocateur in this public forum ???

Ah.

Karnal wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 12:16pm:

Yadda wrote on Mar 11th, 2013 at 12:07pm: [size=14] OR, is Karnal 'playing' the part of an agent provocateur in this public forum ??? Ah.

In any case, Karnal is a weak, low, person.

THAT, is my opinion of people like Karnal.

whats the problem yadda? Isn't this the best solution? The "final solution" you might say. You of all people know only too well what the muslim hordes are scheming to do to all non-muslims - every minute of every day.

Its self defense Yadda - either kill or be killed.

Karnal is merely taking your argument to its logical conclusion no?

aquascoot wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 12:02pm:

about what % of muslims in a place like pakistan , do you reckon, would try to physically harm you if you said something derogatory about the prophet?

You're basing an entire world view on the hypothetical response you'd get in a crowded Pakistani mosque if you insulted their prophet?

Why stop at Muslims? Football hooligans, heavy-metal fans, neo-Nazi rallies, the gay Mardi Gras, the Myer Boxing Day sale, the old boy's Lutheran church picnic (if it rains), Yadda's Karmic Khristian crowd on Religionofpeace.org...

sprintcyclist wrote:

Quote:

I am on gandalfs side here. give credit where credit is due. well done gandalf, you have spoken on soemthing you believe could be improved. I do not expect you to 'committ suicide' to prove you disagree with anything.

Thanks sprint, I do appreciate that  :)

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 12:23pm:

whats the problem yadda? Isn't this the best solution? The "final solution" you might say. You of all people know only too well what the muslim hordes are scheming to do to all non-muslims - every minute of every day. Its self defense Yadda - either kill or be killed. Karnal is merely taking your argument to its logical conclusion no?

Not just the illogical conclusion, but actual calls to arms from Yadda and the old boy on a number of occasions.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 12:23pm:

whats the problem yadda? Isn't this the best solution? The "final solution" you might say. You of all people know only too well what the muslim hordes are scheming to do to all non-muslims - every minute of every day. Its self defense Yadda - either kill or be killed. Karnal is merely taking your argument to its logical conclusion no?

FACT;
ISLAM, gives moslems the sanction to murder other human beings, who do not believe what they believe.


FACT;
Moslems choose to belong to, and to associate themselves with, ISLAM.




What is the problem gandalf?

Just tell us all gandalf, why do you choose to embrace a philosophy which declares that it is 'lawful' for you to slaughter other human beings, who do not believe what you believe ?

Why do you choose to belong to, and to associate yourself with, ISLAM, gandalf ?



Do you deny that ISLAM declares that it is 'lawful' for you as a moslem, to slaughter other human beings, who do not believe what you believe ?

How low can you go, gandalf, in your support for ISLAM ?







+++



"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123


"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111


"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

Karnal wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 12:36pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 11th, 2013 at 12:23pm: whats the problem yadda? Isn't this the best solution? The "final solution" you might say. You of all people know only too well what the muslim hordes are scheming to do to all non-muslims - every minute of every day. Its self defense Yadda - either kill or be killed. Karnal is merely taking your argument to its logical conclusion no? Not just the illogical conclusion, but actual calls to arms from Yadda and the old boy on a number of occasions.

You got ref's ???

No, Y. You know them.

Why should Gandalf have to justify his choice of religion? Have you gone totally bonkers?

Karnal wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 12:41pm:

No, Y. You know them.

I know them ???

I know,   ......that the moon is made of green cheese.

And i know, that you are a person who has no sincere opinions of his own which he is willing to reveal in this public forum.

Weak, low, person.i
Quote:

Why should Gandalf have to justify his choice of religion? Have you gone totally bonkers?

Because, ISLAM is a death cult.

And so, i want to know, why does gandalf CHOOSE to associate himself, with a death cult ??????

It is a reasonable question to ask!




FROM THE SUNNA OF MOHAMMED

"...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

Yadda wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 12:50pm:

Quote: Why should Gandalf have to justify his choice of religion? Have you gone totally bonkers? Because, ISLAM is a death cult.

CORRECTION;
Because, ISLAM is a MURDEROUS death cult.

Karnal wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 12:30pm:

aquascoot wrote on Mar 11th, 2013 at 12:02pm: about what % of muslims in a place like pakistan , do you reckon, would try to physically harm you if you said something derogatory about the prophet? You're basing an entire world view on the hypothetical response you'd get in a crowded Pakistani mosque if you insulted their prophet? Why stop at Muslims? Football hooligans, heavy-metal fans, neo-Nazi rallies, the gay Mardi Gras, the Myer Boxing Day sale, the old boy's Lutheran church picnic (if it rains), Yadda's Karmic Khristian crowd on Religionofpeace.org...

well, with the exception of football hooligans, i think, whilst i mite get some abuse thrown my way for insulting the mardi gras crowd or the lutheran picnic. i would not be in fear of my life.
i think the psychological technique is called flooding. you have something which really upsets you (say a snake) so people just keep putting rubber snakes in your life until the reaction extinguishes.
so perhaps we need to practice this technique with the muslim world.

a bit like piss christ and monty pythons "life of brian"

we need to be super insulting and carpet bomb the muslim extremists with

piss mohamed and the parody film "life of mohamed"  until they either relax and learn to accept our "sense of humor' and "art"  or they self implode.

either way, it probably beats walking on egg shells.

also karmal, i think it is a capital offense to insult the prophet in pakistan. i doubt insulting man united at old trafford would see me executed  ;)

Yadda wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 12:50pm:

[quote author=Karnal link=1360382901/81#81 date=1362969674] [size=14] And i know, that you are a person who has no sincere opinions of his own which he is willing to reveal in this public forum.

I haven't seen you reveal your own beliefs on Karmic Khristianity for a while either, Y.

Still, I know you have them.

Perhaps you would like to discuss your own beliefs instead of judging and criticizing others. I'm not telling you what you should do, but you have this choice.

Just as Gandalf and everyone else here has the right to choose their own spiritual path based on their own life experience and things you don't know about - things you'll never know.

A spiritual path is not a negation of someone else's spiritual path. In fact, that path is certain to lead you nowhere. It will merely make you angry and resentful, and you'll save no souls in the process.

I can only speak for myself, but your posts are not doing any converting or saving. After all, judging people's height is hardly going to bring them around to your point of view, is it?

Anyway, I'm about average. If you want to buy me a nice T shirt, go for Small or Medium.

aquascoot wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 12:57pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 11th, 2013 at 12:30pm: aquascoot wrote on Mar 11th, 2013 at 12:02pm: about what % of muslims in a place like pakistan , do you reckon, would try to physically harm you if you said something derogatory about the prophet? You're basing an entire world view on the hypothetical response you'd get in a crowded Pakistani mosque if you insulted their prophet? Why stop at Muslims? Football hooligans, heavy-metal fans, neo-Nazi rallies, the gay Mardi Gras, the Myer Boxing Day sale, the old boy's Lutheran church picnic (if it rains), Yadda's Karmic Khristian crowd on Religionofpeace.org... well, with the exception of football hooligans, i think, whilst i mite get some abuse thrown my way for insulting the mardi gras crowd or the lutheran picnic. i would not be in fear of my life.

Believe me, a Western woman insulting the prophet in Pakistan is not very likely get stabbed or bludgeoned to death. They may well do this to a Pakistani woman, but as an outsider you're almost certain to be led away by a rescuer. This is the culture of most Central Asian countries. Outsiders are seen as guests.

Contrast this with a Pakistani spectator at one of the more white supremacist football matches in Eastern Europe. There, if the crowd are riled up, an outsider is unlikely to get away without being bashed.

I'm sure there are exceptions to this rule. You can never predict a crowd. There are definitely no-go areas in Pakistan for Westerners, particularly if a woman is not fully covered. However, this is much more likely to be because of your ransom value, not your religion.

A Westerner in most Muslim countries who rails against Islam or the Prophet is more likely to receive a blank, perplexed look than an attack. If it continues, someone would most likely - very politely - tell you to pull your head in for your own safety.

And if you ever get arrested in Pakistan - for whatever charge - give the first cop a hundred US dollars. The higher you go, the more expensive it gets.

My advice would be to respect the culture and religion of whatever country you're in - much easier.

Karnal wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 1:38pm:

aquascoot wrote on Mar 11th, 2013 at 12:57pm: Karnal wrote on Mar 11th, 2013 at 12:30pm: aquascoot wrote on Mar 11th, 2013 at 12:02pm: about what % of muslims in a place like pakistan , do you reckon, would try to physically harm you if you said something derogatory about the prophet? You're basing an entire world view on the hypothetical response you'd get in a crowded Pakistani mosque if you insulted their prophet? Why stop at Muslims? Football hooligans, heavy-metal fans, neo-Nazi rallies, the gay Mardi Gras, the Myer Boxing Day sale, the old boy's Lutheran church picnic (if it rains), Yadda's Karmic Khristian crowd on Religionofpeace.org... well, with the exception of football hooligans, i think, whilst i mite get some abuse thrown my way for insulting the mardi gras crowd or the lutheran picnic. i would not be in fear of my life. Believe me, a Western woman insulting the prophet in Pakistan is not very likely get stabbed or bludgeoned to death. They may well do this to a Pakistani woman, but as an outsider you're almost certain to be led away by a rescuer. This is the culture of most Central Asian countries. Outsiders are seen as guests. Contrast this with a Pakistani spectator at one of the more white supremacist football matches in Eastern Europe. There, if the crowd are riled up, an outsider is unlikely to get away without being bashed. I'm sure there are exceptions to this rule. You can never predict a crowd. There are definitely no-go areas in Pakistan for Westerners, particularly if a woman is not fully covered. However, this is much more likely to be because of your ransom value, not your religion. A Westerner in most Muslim countries who rails against Islam or the Prophet is more likely to receive a blank, perplexed look than an attack. If it continues, someone would most likely - very politely - tell you to pull your head in for your own safety. And if you ever get arrested in Pakistan - for whatever charge - give the first cop a hundred US dollars. The higher you go, the more expensive it gets. My advice would be to respect the culture and religion of whatever country you're in - much easier.

interesting, i never would have thought that.  so why did they get all hot under the collar when some film makers made that silly youtube clip.  surely a simple "pull your heads in" would be a more appropriate response

Karnal wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 12:30pm:

aquascoot wrote on Mar 11th, 2013 at 12:02pm: about what % of muslims in a place like pakistan , do you reckon, would try to physically harm you if you said something derogatory about the prophet? You're basing an entire world view on the hypothetical response you'd get in a crowded Pakistani mosque if you insulted their prophet? Why stop at Muslims? Football hooligans, heavy-metal fans, neo-Nazi rallies, the gay Mardi Gras, the Myer Boxing Day sale, the old boy's Lutheran church picnic (if it rains), Yadda's Karmic Khristian crowd on Religionofpeace.org...

You haven't watched the news lately have you Karnal? (BTW, nice to see you return to making sense at least)


Quote:

well, with the exception of football hooligans, i think, whilst i mite get some abuse thrown my way for insulting the mardi gras crowd or the lutheran picnic. i would not be in fear of my life.

Muslims have even taken soccer hooliganism to a whole new level.

aquascoot wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 2:12pm:

interesting, i never would have thought that.  so why did they get all hot under the collar when some film makers made that silly youtube clip.  surely a simple "pull your heads in" would be a more appropriate response

Good question. Why do people get all hot under the collar on the internet?

The old boy's an exception - he has important things to get hot about. I forget what they are, but we excuse him because he's an unassimilated cheese-head. We like to accommodate, you see.

There is no standard Muslim culture, set or laws or values. Arabs seem to be hotheads - maybe they eat a lot of cheese. South East Asians are generally polite and easy going, whatever religion they are.

Including Yadda's Malaysians.

Iranians are very welcoming and friendly to foreigners, as are Turks (so I'm told). Turkey's one of the biggest tourist destinations in Europe right now - particularly for middle-aged women who want to get laid. Former Soviet Muslims seem just like Russians to me - although I'm sure there are differences. They seem to have a similar taste in clothes, particularly tracksuits - and underpants at the beach.

Pakistanis and Indian Muslims can be quite intellectual - as distinct from Hindus, who are all colour and emotion.

And before anyone makes out I'm categorizing (I am), some of these nationalities have told me this about themselves.

But yes, why do people on the internet go on murderous tirades so easily?

My guess is that it's safe. You can say what you want and you don't have to back it up. Yadda would never carry on like he does to a group of Muslims. Like most people, he'd have grave doubts about actually implementing the sort of things he says. Like most, I think pulling the trigger or pressing the button would be a very hard step for Yadda to take.

The only reason we can be like this on the internet is we're isolated from the consequences of our words. If the consequence is right there in your face, people talk differently. We choose our words and tone depending on the response we receive from our audience.

My guess is the most extremist posters on the net are the most lonely - but this is just a hunch.

The "behead all those who insult the prophet" line is an internet thing to say. As soon as the woman who made that sign was confronted with an angry response, she backed down. She pretended she didn't know what she was saying.

Crap. She just had no idea she'd provoke such anger - she forgot that she wasn't on the internet anymore.

freediver wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 2:40pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 11th, 2013 at 12:30pm: aquascoot wrote on Mar 11th, 2013 at 12:02pm: about what % of muslims in a place like pakistan , do you reckon, would try to physically harm you if you said something derogatory about the prophet? You're basing an entire world view on the hypothetical response you'd get in a crowded Pakistani mosque if you insulted their prophet? Why stop at Muslims? Football hooligans, heavy-metal fans, neo-Nazi rallies, the gay Mardi Gras, the Myer Boxing Day sale, the old boy's Lutheran church picnic (if it rains), Yadda's Karmic Khristian crowd on Religionofpeace.org... You haven't watched the news lately have you Karnal? (BTW, nice to see you return to making sense at least) Quote: well, with the exception of football hooligans, i think, whilst i mite get some abuse thrown my way for insulting the mardi gras crowd or the lutheran picnic. i would not be in fear of my life. Muslims have even taken soccer hooliganism to a whole new level.

You're right, FD. I haven't seen the news lately. How did you know that?

Muslim soccer hooligans? Good show.

They can give the poms some of their own back.

Look at that - I just excused Moslem violence. Whoops!

Now that was an internet response.

Karnal wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 3:18pm:

aquascoot wrote on Mar 11th, 2013 at 2:12pm: interesting, i never would have thought that.  so why did they get all hot under the collar when some film makers made that silly youtube clip.  surely a simple "pull your heads in" would be a more appropriate response Good question. Why do people get all hot under the collar on the internet? The old boy's an exception - he has important things to get hot about. I forget what they are, but we excuse him because he's an unassimilated cheese-head. We like to accommodate, you see. There is no standard Muslim culture, set or laws or values. Arabs seem to be hotheads - maybe they eat a lot of cheese. South East Asians are generally polite and easy going, whatever religion they are. Including Yadda's Malaysians. Iranians are very welcoming and friendly to foreigners, as are Turks (so I'm told). Turkey's one of the biggest tourist destinations in Europe right now - particularly for middle-aged women who want to get laid. Former Soviet Muslims seem just like Russians to me - although I'm sure there are differences. They seem to have a similar taste in clothes, particularly tracksuits - and underpants at the beach. Pakistanis and Indian Muslims can be quite intellectual - as distinct from Hindus, who are all colour and emotion. And before anyone makes out I'm categorizing (I am), some of these nationalities have told me this about themselves. But yes, why do people on the internet go on murderous tirades so easily? My guess is that it's safe. You can say what you want and you don't have to back it up. Yadda would never carry on like he does to a group of Muslims. Like most people, he'd have grave doubts about actually implementing the sort of things he says. Like most, I think pulling the trigger or pressing the button would be a very hard step for Yadda to take. The only reason we can be like this on the internet is we're isolated from the consequences of our words. If the consequence is right there in your face, people talk differently. We choose our words and tone depending on the response we receive from our audience. My guess is the most extremist posters on the net are the most lonely - but this is just a hunch. The "behead all those who insult the prophet" line is an internet thing to say. As soon as the woman who made that sign was confronted with an angry response, she backed down. She pretended she didn't know what she was saying. Crap. She just had no idea she'd provoke such anger - she forgot that she wasn't on the internet anymore.

good response,  learned something, i did.
perhaps the highlighted text is why drone strikes from a computer screen in  nevada are a bad idea. ;)

Well, from a US military point of view, they're a good idea. No PTSD, no backchat from the locals, no shots being deliberately fired in the wrong direction by "virgin" soldiers who don't want to kill.

This was a huge problem in Vietnam. They had statistics on it.

It's fine for the US now because no one's got drones aimed at them or their friends. The problem is, war being what it is, the enemy is eventually going to get their hands on them. When China and Russia get serious about drones, the US will hardly be able to play the high moral ground.

Drones are dangerous because they have real consequences. I'm not sure what the consequences of internet extremism are. The standard of the current political debate, I guess, is one.

Just as video games do not, in themselves, create violent people, I doubt internet extremism does either. It is possible to walk around with ideas like Yadda and the old boy and be completely harmless.

Still, every time a war comes round, it gets more and more dehumanized. The more you dehumanize the enemy, the easier they are to kill.

Paradoxically, the US military's response to Vietnam's dud shooters was putting human silhouettes on the targets during weapons training. This desensitized recruits to the reality of battle, and raised the "kill-ratio" enough to have kept using them ever since.

Yadda's Madrid bombing photos are designed to do a similar thing - create enough anger in his audience to justify his position on Muslims. Yadda is attempting to humanize the victims in that bombing. It's an ill-judged move because it's very hard to humanize the dead. Much better to promote empathy with a humanized object like a child's teddy bear, a sandal, or a set of rosary beads.

The old boy, on the other hand, intends to caricaturize (and in the process) dehumanize Muslims with his Danish Mohammed cartoon. Cartoons of the enemy have always been used to beat the war drum - Walt Disney's sinister Tojo in WWII, or press cartoonists' fat Kaiser in WWI. It's propaganda - an old strategy. Still, the internet is all about propaganda.

It's funny how some see it as a form of free speech.

Karnal wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 3:53pm:

Just as video games do not, in themselves, create violent people, I doubt internet extremism does either. It is possible to walk around with ideas like Yadda and the old boy and be completely harmless.

I am Yadda.

Am i harmless ?

I am over 60 years old.

I am over 60 years old, and i have never been to goal.

And i have never been charged [or convicted] with a criminal offence.

Am i harmless ?

Yes, i'm like a little harmless lamb, aren't i!








Quote:

Still, every time a war comes round, it gets more and more dehumanized. The more you dehumanize the enemy, the easier they are to kill.

Oh, is that so, K ???

I wonder where you gleaned that wisdom from ?

Hmmmm?


"Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures."
Koran 98.6

THE INFERENCE ?
Those who reject ISLAM are not even human beings....YOU MAY, AND SHOULD, KILL THEM!



"...And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of [i.e. for] those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?...Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan:.."
Koran 4.74-76

THE INFERENCE ?
Those who reject ISLAM are SATANISTS and are the wicked and the oppressors of the weak....YOU MAY, AND SHOULD, KILL THEM!i
Quote:

Yadda's Madrid bombing photos are designed to......create enough anger in his audience to justify his position on Muslims. Yadda is attempting to humanize the victims in that bombing. It's an ill-judged move because it's very hard to humanize the dead. Much better to promote empathy with a humanized object like a child's teddy bear, a sandal, or a set of rosary beads.

Wrong.

Yadda's Madrid bombing photos are designed to,    ....bring people back to reality.

To remind all people of just how ruthless and murderous ALL moslems potentially are.

ALL moslems ?

AGAIN,
FACT;
ISLAM, gives moslems the sanction to murder other human beings, who do not believe what they believe.


FACT;
Moslems choose to belong to, and to associate themselves with, ISLAM.

All moslems choose to associate themselves with the evil which ISLAM is.

All moslems, who say "I am a moslem.", are choosing to associate themselves with the religious violence which ISLAM promotes in the world - a religious violence which ISLAM calls, 'religious devotion'.

LOOK HERE ----->
THE RELIGION OF PEACE
http://thereligionofpeace.com/








Quote:

It's funny how some see it as a form of free speech.

Yes, it is funny how some can see, exposing the TRUTH about ISLAM [and about moslem intents], as a expression of free speech.
/sarc off

It is a pity that people like yourself cannot, K.

Want to put people like me in goal, perhaps ???






+++

K,

Persons who choose to who follow an evil supremacist philosophy [ISLAM], a philosophy which promotes intimidation, vicious violence, rape, murder, banditry and brigandry as being 'righteous' and 'lawful' [so long as these 'affections' are inflicted upon those outside of their own 'camp'], so as to promote their own exclusive worldview, of their own supremacist fantasies,
.....THEY are the ones who get a 'pass' from you.


Whereas, those persons who expose the error [in ourselves] of toleration of such a philosophy, are those who are 'irrational', and 'crazy', and full of 'hatred' - according to you.

Sure.

You are the rational one K.          :P

Thanks, Y.

The moral equivalence being played here of internet extremism and bombings is very ordinary.

Internet extremism????

Is this the latest slogan of the trendy left to silence any opposition?

Who mentioned bombings? We were discussing the Malaysian prime minister’s views on hommersexiality.

Ordinary, eh Mistie?

What do you think of Yadda’s post above?

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 9:41pm:

The moral equivalence being played here of internet extremism and bombings is very ordinary. Internet extremism???? Is this the latest slogan of the trendy left to silence any opposition?

i can see your point mistie.

however, i'm surprised at the number of home invasions and assaults i see in my line of work which are the result of a falling out on facebook.  people seem to get more upset about comments on social media because they sit at home and stew on it before collecting a "posse" and heading off to the perpetrators address.  amazing new phenomena.  but you're right, i side tracked the issue a little discussing the internet and bombings.

still , it has been an informative discussion.

whilst karnal assures me i could insult the prophet and just be shown tolerance in a muslim country as an outsider, how would i go having a swim in saudi arabia with my missus in a thong bikini. 

actually she's probably a bit past that and locking her up may be an appropriate response :D :D

I’m sure they have hotel swimming pools in Saudi Arabia, Aquascoot.

The way they get around the strict laws there is blockout curtains and walled compounds.

We don’t need strict laws here. People are happy to live this way on their own accord.

Freewill, you see?

Karnal wrote on Mar 12^th, 2013 at 8:33am:

I’m sure they have hotel swimming pools in Saudi Arabia, Aquascoot. The way they get around the strict laws there is blockout curtains and walled compounds. We don’t need strict laws here. People are happy to live this way on their own accord. Freewill, you see?

Saudi Arabia.

Aaaaaaaaahhhhh,   .....a place in the sun!

Allah's blessed land.

If only Australians would use block-out curtains too!

How blessed Australians would be.i


Google;
saudi maid abuse

Yadda wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 12:50pm:

And so, i want to know, why does gandalf CHOOSE to associate himself, with a death cult ??????

hmmm I don't know Yadda, I've never really thought of it like that...

I guess I'm just a 'death cult' kind of a guy  :-/

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 12^th, 2013 at 9:29am:

Yadda wrote on Mar 11th, 2013 at 12:50pm: And so, i want to know, why does gandalf CHOOSE to associate himself, with a death cult ?????? hmmm I don't know Yadda, I've never really thought of it like that... I guess I'm just a 'death cult' kind of a guy  :-/

We come here to make choices gandalf.

It is our own choices, which define us, that define who, and what we are.

No ?



You, and other moslems, have made your choice gandalf.

You choose to associate yourself with what ISLAM is.

OK.

Bear it!

Yadda wrote on Mar 12^th, 2013 at 9:36am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 12th, 2013 at 9:29am: Yadda wrote on Mar 11th, 2013 at 12:50pm: And so, i want to know, why does gandalf CHOOSE to associate himself, with a death cult ?????? hmmm I don't know Yadda, I've never really thought of it like that... I guess I'm just a 'death cult' kind of a guy  :-/ We come here to make choices gandalf. It is our own choices, which define us, that define who, and what we are. No ? You, and other moslems, have made your choice gandalf. You choose to associate yourself with what ISLAM is. OK. Bear it!

"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."
Gandalf - FOTR




gandalf,

Don't you believe [i.e. have faith] ?

You know I find that quote really funny Yadda  -since it comes right after:

do not be too eager to deal out death and judgment - for even the very wise cannot see all ends

food for thought?

aquascoot wrote on Mar 12^th, 2013 at 7:18am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 11th, 2013 at 9:41pm: The moral equivalence being played here of internet extremism and bombings is very ordinary. Internet extremism???? Is this the latest slogan of the trendy left to silence any opposition? i can see your point mistie. however, i'm surprised at the number of home invasions and assaults i see in my line of work which are the result of a falling out on facebook.  people seem to get more upset about comments on social media because they sit at home and stew on it before collecting a "posse" and heading off to the perpetrators address.  amazing new phenomena.  but you're right, i side tracked the issue a little discussing the internet and bombings. still , it has been an informative discussion. whilst karnal assures me i could insult the prophet and just be shown tolerance in a muslim country as an outsider, how would i go having a swim in saudi arabia with my missus in a thong bikini.  actually she's probably a bit past that and locking her up may be an appropriate response :D :D

You're right, that is an amazing new phenomena. I've never heard of that before. I think the sociologists are a bit behind the times then.

It sounds very lowbrow. No wonder many people don't make much of themselves when such little things can turn them into raging clowns.

As a social scientist, I can assure you: we are completely behind the times.

We prefer not to stigmatize people as "lowbrow". We like to use the term "lower socio-economic" to describe the lower orders.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 12^th, 2013 at 10:59am:

You know I find that quote really funny Yadda  -since it comes right after: do not be too eager to deal out death and judgment - for even the very wise cannot see all ends food for thought?

Food for thought?


Dictionary;
hypocrisy = = the practice of claiming to have higher standards or beliefs than is the case.






gandalf,

Q.
As a moslem, do you know what it is, for ISLAM to judge, and, to condemn others, who are not moslems [......and even to judge those 'wrong kind' of moslems who are not moslems in the same mould, as your own sect] ?

A.
To a moslem, it is a righteous act.i+++


Jahiliyya = = the un-ISLAMIC lifestyle




Quote:

"THE RIGHT TO JUDGE" "It is not the function of Islam to compromise with the concepts of Jahiliyya which are current in the world or to co-exist in the same land together with a jahili system........"

SAYYID QUTB - ISLAMIC scholar
http://www.islamworld.net/justice.html

OR, Google;
"THE RIGHT TO JUDGE" SAYYID QUTB




The 'Jahiliyya' lifestyle is totally incompatible with ISLAM.

And in fact, to devout moslems, the mere *existence* of non-moslem communities is viewed as insulting to the authority of Allah.
...because you see, moslems 'deserve' to have 'authority', to rule the whole world, for Allah.



Jahiliyya is a result of the lack of Sharia...


Quote:

"....Jahiliyya is a result of the lack of Sharia law, without which Islam cannot exist;" "...true Islam is a complete system with no room for any element of Jahiliyya" "...all aspects of Jahiliyya...are "evil and corrupt" "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahiliyya#Jahiliyya_in_contemporary_society



+++


And;
'We shouldn't judge others' - right, gandalf ?????




"...A harbi has no rights, not even the right to live."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbi




Who, or what is a harbi ???


Harbi is an Arabic/ISLAMIC word, it means "one under a declaration of war".

i.e.
As per ISLAM;

"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98


A 'harbi' can be any non-moslem,
...BUT MOST DEFINITELY, A HARBI IS ANYONE WHO REJECTS ISLAM's RIGHT TO RULE, OVER ALL OF MANKIND.

Karnal wrote on Mar 12^th, 2013 at 12:23pm:

As a social scientist, I can assure you: we are completely behind the times. We prefer not to stigmatize people as "lowbrow". We like to use the term "lower socio-economic" to describe the lower orders.

i have trouble with the term social scientist karnal, even though i work in that field..  so much of it seems "not very scientific"  i'd call it a social "artist"

Yadda wrote on Mar 12^th, 2013 at 1:15pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 12th, 2013 at 10:59am: You know I find that quote really funny Yadda  -since it comes right after: do not be too eager to deal out death and judgment - for even the very wise cannot see all ends food for thought? Food for thought? Dictionary; hypocrisy = = the practice of claiming to have higher standards or beliefs than is the case. gandalf, Q. As a moslem, do you know what it is, for ISLAM to judge, and, to condemn others, who are not moslems [......and even to judge those 'wrong kind' of moslems who are not moslems in the same mould, as your own sect] ? A. To a moslem, it is a righteous act.i+++ Jahiliyya = = the un-ISLAMIC lifestyle Quote: "THE RIGHT TO JUDGE" "It is not the function of Islam to compromise with the concepts of Jahiliyya which are current in the world or to co-exist in the same land together with a jahili system........" SAYYID QUTB - ISLAMIC scholar http://www.islamworld.net/justice.html OR, Google; "THE RIGHT TO JUDGE" SAYYID QUTB The 'Jahiliyya' lifestyle is totally incompatible with ISLAM. And in fact, to devout moslems, the mere *existence* of non-moslem communities is viewed as insulting to the authority of Allah. ...because you see, moslems 'deserve' to have 'authority', to rule the whole world, for Allah. Jahiliyya is a result of the lack of Sharia... [quote] "....Jahiliyya is a result of the lack of Sharia law, without which Islam cannot exist;" "...true Islam is a complete system with no room for any element of Jahiliyya" "...all aspects of Jahiliyya...are "evil and corrupt" "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahiliyya#Jahiliyya_in_contemporary_society



+++


And;
'We shouldn't judge others' - right, gandalf ?????




"...A harbi has no rights, not even the right to live."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbi




Who, or what is a harbi ???


Harbi is an Arabic/ISLAMIC word, it means "one under a declaration of war".

i.e.
As per ISLAM;

"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98


A 'harbi' can be any non-moslem,
...BUT MOST DEFINITELY, A HARBI IS ANYONE WHO REJECTS ISLAM's RIGHT TO RULE, OVER ALL OF MANKIND.

[/quote]


How about this one, Mistie?

Ordinary enough for you?

I find Yadda's posts hard to follow because of the odd formatting he uses.

aquascoot wrote on Mar 12^th, 2013 at 1:25pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 12th, 2013 at 12:23pm: As a social scientist, I can assure you: we are completely behind the times. We prefer not to stigmatize people as "lowbrow". We like to use the term "lower socio-economic" to describe the lower orders. i have trouble with the term social scientist karnal, even though i work in that field..  so much of it seems "not very scientific"  i'd call it a social "artist"

I'm just winding Mistie up. If Mistie can "work" for the Acadame, I can be a social scientist.

You're right. I'm a social artist.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 12^th, 2013 at 1:33pm:

I find Yadda's posts hard to follow because of the odd formatting he uses.

I find them hard to follow because they're complete crap.

Karnal wrote on Mar 12^th, 2013 at 1:35pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Mar 12th, 2013 at 1:33pm: I find Yadda's posts hard to follow because of the odd formatting he uses. I find them hard to follow because they're complete crap.

That is coz i am an infidel.

If i was a moslem, my posts would make complete sense.

Y, Abu, Gandalf and Falah (completely different people with different beliefs) have never judged me or anyone else on this board for not being a Muslim - including you. In fact, they all tolerate you and are reasonably polite in response to your ludicrous posts.

But you're content to judge them solely because of their religion without knowing anything about them at all.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, Y.

Anything else and you're putting yourself above God.

I disagree on Abu and Falah; Gandalf seems a little bit more level headed those those two though.
Abu was forever denigrating Australia and the west. Not long before his departure he was cheering on the Taliban soldiers over the Australian troops.
Abu deserved all he got as far as I am concerned.

Come now, Mistie. You denigrate Australia and the West all the time.

But I've never seen you denigrate someone solely because of their religion.

Karnal wrote on Mar 12^th, 2013 at 1:56pm:

Y, Abu, Gandalf and Falah (completely different people with different beliefs) have never judged me or anyone else on this board for not being a Muslim - including you. In fact, they all tolerate you and are reasonably polite in response to your ludicrous posts. But you're content to judge them solely because of their religion without knowing anything about them at all. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, Y. Anything else and you're putting yourself above God.

Do you know that abu calls people that aren't muslims??? kafur. I suppose that's you karnal. Go through his posts on aussiemuslim. He called a bloke that was dressed as a nun a cross dressing fag the other week. It's all on aussiemuslim. Some of the stuff he wrote on here about stoning women and OBL is pretty interesting too. He's a very judgemental person. Especially if you aren't a muslim. Falah is an extremist and his posts are disgusting. Especially blaming our bushfires and floods on our military involvements. His posts on our servicemen our revolting also. You need to pull your head out of your bum karnal. Get on aussiemuslim and read their posts.

Big Dave wrote on Mar 12^th, 2013 at 2:53pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 12th, 2013 at 1:56pm: Y, Abu, Gandalf and Falah (completely different people with different beliefs) have never judged me or anyone else on this board for not being a Muslim - including you. In fact, they all tolerate you and are reasonably polite in response to your ludicrous posts. But you're content to judge them solely because of their religion without knowing anything about them at all. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, Y. Anything else and you're putting yourself above God. Do you know that abu calls people that aren't muslims??? kafur. I suppose that's you karnal. Go through his posts on aussiemuslim. He called a bloke that was dressed as a nun a cross dressing fag the other week. It's all on aussiemuslim. Some of the stuff he wrote on here about stoning women and OBL is pretty interesting too. He's a very judgemental person. Especially if you aren't a muslim. Falah is an extremist and his posts are disgusting. Especially blaming our bushfires and floods on our military involvements. His posts on our servicemen our revolting also. You need to pull your head out of your bum karnal. Get on aussiemuslim and read their posts.

I agree completely. I'm not a fan of some of Abu or Falah's more fruity ideas either. Falah can't stand me - but not because I'm a kuffir.

Falah just doesn't like smartarses - a prejudice he shares with you, I'm sure.

So unfair.

Been on Aussiemuslim, Big Dave?

Y, we've got another Muslim here. Better get onto him.

Karnal wrote on Mar 12^th, 2013 at 3:20pm:

Big Dave wrote on Mar 12th, 2013 at 2:53pm: Karnal wrote on Mar 12th, 2013 at 1:56pm: Y, Abu, Gandalf and Falah (completely different people with different beliefs) have never judged me or anyone else on this board for not being a Muslim - including you. In fact, they all tolerate you and are reasonably polite in response to your ludicrous posts. But you're content to judge them solely because of their religion without knowing anything about them at all. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, Y. Anything else and you're putting yourself above God. Do you know that abu calls people that aren't muslims??? kafur. I suppose that's you karnal. Go through his posts on aussiemuslim. He called a bloke that was dressed as a nun a cross dressing fag the other week. It's all on aussiemuslim. Some of the stuff he wrote on here about stoning women and OBL is pretty interesting too. He's a very judgemental person. Especially if you aren't a muslim. Falah is an extremist and his posts are disgusting. Especially blaming our bushfires and floods on our military involvements. His posts on our servicemen our revolting also. You need to pull your head out of your bum karnal. Get on aussiemuslim and read their posts. I agree completely. I'm not a fan of some of Abu or Falah's more fruity ideas either. Falah can't stand me - but not because I'm a kuffir. Falah just doesn't like smartarses - a prejudice he shares with you, I'm sure. So unfair. Been on Aussiemuslim, Big Dave? Y, we've got another Muslim here. Better get onto him.

I'm interested in knowing things. More fruity ideas??? That's a nice way of putting it. Most muslims are good people. But these people are highly political and on another level from your aussie political forum type people. Their whole deal is this- to turn muslims away from australian society because their think their interpretation is islam will be corrupted. The whole aussiemuslim website is - they are doing this to us and they are doing that. Falah is 90% of their posts.

Good that you’re curious, Big Dave. I’m not sure Yadda would agree - this sort of thing leads to one place alone.

Google: where will you spend Eternity?

you talking about aussiemuslims.com?

That forum seems almost dead. There seems to be only one regular poster there - falah - not sure if its the same one that was here.

Ah - sounds like a good source for FD’s wiki.

Karnal wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 12:16pm:

Yadda wrote on Mar 11th, 2013 at 12:07pm: [size=14] OR, is Karnal 'playing' the part of an agent provocateur in this public forum ??? Ah.

Ah??? ZIF.   You overestimate yourself, PB. 

Agent cretinous is more like it.

That's an 'Ah'.

I always say ah when I’m opening my mouth for a delicious treat, old boy.

It means miam miam in Greek.

Are you offering the plate around?

Please, dear boy - I’m full.

Quote:

But yes, why do people on the internet go on murderous tirades so easily? ... The "behead all those who insult the prophet" line is an internet thing to say.

Karnal, there were a lot of Australian Muslims marching through the streets of Sydney and Melbourne behind banners calling for the death penalty for the guy who made that movie.


Quote:

You're right, FD. I haven't seen the news lately. How did you know that? Muslim soccer hooligans? Good show. They can give the poms some of their own back.

Here are two relevant examples:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Said_Stadium_riot

On 1 February 2012, a massive riot occurred at Port Said Stadium in Port Said, Egypt, following an Egyptian premier league football match between Al-Masry and Al Ahly clubs. At least 79 people were killed and more than 1,000 were injured after thousands of Al-Masry spectators stormed the stadium stands and the pitch, following a 3–1 victory by Al-Masry.[2][3] Al-Masry fans violently attacked Al-Ahly fans using knives, swords, clubs, stones, bottles, and fireworks as weapons.

And this one:

http://endthelie.com/2013/03/09/blasphemy-revenge-over-100-pakistani-christians-homes-set-ablaze/#axzz2NTrTP04w

Angry mobs of Muslims burned down the homes of about 100 Christians after rumours that one of them had committed blasphemy. This was only 5 days ago in Pakistan. It was all over the news.

It makes this comment from you look a bit silly, don't you think?


freediver wrote on Mar 11^th, 2013 at 2:40pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 11th, 2013 at 12:30pm: aquascoot wrote on Mar 11th, 2013 at 12:02pm: about what % of muslims in a place like pakistan , do you reckon, would try to physically harm you if you said something derogatory about the prophet? You're basing an entire world view on the hypothetical response you'd get in a crowded Pakistani mosque if you insulted their prophet? Why stop at Muslims? Football hooligans, heavy-metal fans, neo-Nazi rallies, the gay Mardi Gras, the Myer Boxing Day sale, the old boy's Lutheran church picnic (if it rains), Yadda's Karmic Khristian crowd on Religionofpeace.org... You haven't watched the news lately have you Karnal? (BTW, nice to see you return to making sense at least) Quote: well, with the exception of football hooligans, i think, whilst i mite get some abuse thrown my way for insulting the mardi gras crowd or the lutheran picnic. i would not be in fear of my life. Muslims have even taken soccer hooliganism to a whole new level.

Quote:

Still, every time a war comes round, it gets more and more dehumanized.

Karnal I think the reality is the opposite. This is why we are going to such lengths to establish democratic governments before we pull out of Afghanistan and Iraq.

I might be a silly-billy, FD, but even I don't think anyone's going to "great lengths" to establish demokracy in Iraq and Afghanistan.

We all know which way the wind's blowing in Kabul. Going to "great lengths" to establish demokracy there would be a Sisyphean task.

Besides, we have Karzai. Why would we need demokracy?

So what do you think might happen if you went into a crowded Pakistani mosque and insulted Muhammed?

I'm not sure, but I don't think it would be pretty. Thinking of going in, FD?

A couple of questions - are you doing the insulting in Urdu or English? Have you surrounded the mosque with your troops first? Is there air support?

How loudly are you insulting the prophet? Under your breath during prayer? With a megaphone?

To be honest, you'd probably get pretty much the same response you'd get in a church - a miffed but stern exit, frogmarched out by the goons with the crescent blades on their belts.

I think it would vary from mosque to mosque, district to district. In bureaucratic Lahore, you'd probably just get short shrift. In the deep, dark mosques of Quetta, the tactical response Muselmen with the black ski masks would abseil down the walls and do their kung-fu moves on you. They'd whisk you away to an unknown location and send the cut-out letter ransom letter to the Australian consulate. You'd have to wait until the lone, ex-cop with a drinking problem and child support comes in to kill off your captors and, in the process, overcomes his cynicism and thinks about calling the wife.

You'd be the comedy sidekick - stupid enough to insult the prophet in a crowded Pakistani mosque.

Quote:

I think it would vary from mosque to mosque, district to district. In bureaucratic Lahore, you'd probably just get short shrift.

Sometimes I wonder whether you are a closet Muslim-hater sock puppet Karnal. It was in Lahore where they burned 100 homes last week after they heard rumours about a Christian committing blasphemy. The guy got arrested, partly as a protective measure, and is now facing blasphemy charges. Pretty short shrift eh?

I am all those things, my friend. How Lahore has changed...