Interesting that the Islamic council of Victoria is backing the police on this one.

http://www.news.com.au/national/afp-raid-melbourne-properties/story-fndo4cq1-1226472897480

Neighbours speak of shock as guns, computers, violent extremist materials seized in terror raids

Vic man arrested in terror raids

Eleven properties have been raided across Melbourne reportedly linked to homegrown terrorism.

Islamic centre 'suspected ASIO probe'

UPDATE: NEIGHBOURS affected by the series of terror raids across Melbourne yesterday have spoken about their shock and fear about living so close to police targets.

Anti-terror police seized guns and a computer memory stick allegedly containing extremist material in a series of co-ordinated raids on 11 properties across the suburbs.

AFP officers continued their operations today at a property in Narre Warren South.

A man, 23, from Officer in Melbourne's southeast, is expected to be charged with collecting or making documents likely to facilitate terrorist acts.

Australian Federal Police have confirmed the man has been taken to hospital with abdominal pain.

The maximum penalty for the offence is 15 years' jail.

A woman who lives in the same street as the arrested man said she believed he lived there with wife, his brother and his sister-in-law.

Trish Bourke said undercover police cars were at the property in Officer when she left for work at 7.30am yesterday.
Raided home in Officer

A home raided by police in Arena parade, Officer, in Melbourne's southest. Picture: Pinder Trevor

"The family have lived there about one-and-a-half to two years," she said.

"The women wore the full hijab and both men had beards.

"I said hello to them if I saw them and they would say hello back but that's about it. We didn't have conversations. They were not that friendly."

Another neighbour believed the younger brother was arrested.

"The older one, and possibly both, were working in insulation," he said.

Another neighbour, who did not want to be named, said the double-storey modern brick property had been up for sale for a few weeks.

“They were pretty quiet and were always covered up when I saw the women," she said.

"They didn't have any children.
Trish Bourke

Neighbour Trish Bourke said the man arrested and his family were "not that friendly". Picture: Trevor Pinder

“They were not unpleasant but I'm just shocked."

Another said police were at the home "from dawn to about 3pm".

“I have a 15-year-old who is scared and asking me if he is safe," she said.

"This is a quiet street and we don't want anything to do with it.

“When it's a couple of doors down you just want to keep your head down and keep well away.

“It's so unnerving all this going on so close to our family home."

No-one was answering the door to the property this morning, but someone was seen pulling aside the blinds to look outside when media knocked at the door.

A woman was seen driving out of the garage shortly before 7am.

Terror raids

Imitation firearms and computer equipment also were uncovered in the joint swoop by Victoria Police and Australian Federal Police.

Search warrants were executed on properties in Narre Warren South, Craigieburn, Hallam, Officer, Springvale South and Noble Park.

Victoria Police Assistant Commissioner for Crime Steve Fontana last night said the investigation was ongoing.

"We have not identified any immediate threats that pose immediate concerns to the safety of the community. We will continue to work to ensure all steps are taken to protect the community," he said.

Islamic centre among properties raided

Among properties raided was the Al-Furqan Centre, an Islamic information centre in Springvale South.

The centre also engages in religious instruction and conducts lectures on Islam.

Its website carries videos of Islamist militia fighting in the Arab world, such as the uprising in Syria, separatists in Mali and reports of the Taliban infiltrating the Afghan army.

Al-Furqan Centre in Springvale South

In a series of lectures posted on the marginal group’s Facebook page, leader Abu Talha claimed to have records of phone conversations showing Al-Furqan was the subject of an ASIO probe.

A Muslim Australian who occasionally prayed at the Al-Furqan Centre said they were a splinter group.

"The organisation itself has been around for a while, they have been on the fringes," the man said.

"They are a splinter group that decided to go their own way, they had their own ideologies and interpretations and the other stuff that goes with it."

The self-funded Al-Furqan centre broke away from the Dandenong mosque several years ago but the so-called Sheikh Harun is not recognised as a Sheikh or Imam by the wider Islamic community and is not believed to have completed formal religious scholarship, the man said.

"He's not a sheikh," the man said, adding Muslims from Dandenong, Preston and Brunswick mosques also attend the centre for prayers.

A man who lives near the Al-Furqan centre said police swooped at 6am.

"It moved swiftly, it was obviously a covert operation," he said.

Narree Warren South

A street view of one of the raided homes in Ormond Road Narre Warren South. Picture: Norm Oorloff

"There use to be a lot more people at the centre than there are now.

"99 per cent of the time they are men and they keep to themselves."

Another neighbour of the centre, who did not want to be named, said members showed up and prayed on his front lawn behind police lines.

"They have never done that before, I think it was a statement against police more than anything," he said.

A third neighbour, Leanne Rhodes, who lives opposite the centre on Wardale Rd, said at least 50 police surrounded the area from 9am and stayed until after 5pm.

"I opened up my bedroom window and heard loud voices. I saw police everywhere and I thought 'my God what's going on?"' she said.

"They (police) were in and out of the shop all day."

Ms Rhodes said three Islamic men were taken outside and were praying in front of the police.

"They just all sat there in a circle, the police were just watching them."
Narree Warren South

Police raid the Ormond Road, Narre Warren South home. Picture: Norm Oorloff

She said some nights dozens of people packed into the Wardale Rd store.

"There would have to be 50-plus. But there is nothing threatening about them. We don't think 'Oh god they are meeting again'.

"They leave everyone alone."

Another home raided in Narre Warren South

A neighbour said that a Muslim family lived in the home on Ormond Rd, Narre Warren South, that police raided.

"There was a lot of police, they have been there all day," the neighbour said.

"I have never had any trouble from them."

Victoria Police Assistant Commissioner for Crime Steve Fontana said the investigation was ongoing.

AFP acting national manager counter terrorism Justine Saunders said the operation was "an example of proactive law enforcement action to prevent terrorist activity in Australia".

"The AFP is committed to working with state and territory police and the community in order to counter the ongoing and enduring threat of terrorism and ensure the safety and security of the community," Ms Saunders said.

The Islamic Council of Victoria was briefed by Victoria Police within hours of the raids.

Council secretary Sherene Hassan said the organisation was concerned at any terrorism allegations.

"It's reassuring that the authorities are being absolutely vigilant in trying to keep our community safe," she said.

Ms Hassan described Al Furqan as a "marginalised" group.

She said Victoria Police had offered assurances the raids were conducted in a manner which was sensitive to family members of those under scrutiny.

Quote:

She said Victoria Police had offered assurances the raids were conducted in a manner which was sensitive to family members of those under scrutiny.

A sad indictment that such assurances need to be made.

Heaven forbid that nice people planning mass murder wouldn't be treated with 'sensitivity'. 

That weakness is the reason why we will continue to be targetted - muselmen (and everyone else I guess) don't respect pussies.  They rightly sneer and laugh at the collective impotence of the west.  Striking fear into the hearts of our enemies is the only way to win. 

More thought crimes....

Great to see that freedom of speech in action..

What did he do? Possess a forbidden document? How evil.. Do all you brainless tools feel safer now? One less "document peddler" on the street?

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 13^th, 2012 at 8:52pm:

More thought crimes.... Great to see that freedom of speech in action.. What did he do? Possess a forbidden document? How evil.. Do all you brainless tools feel safer now? One less "document peddler" on the street?

They didn't arrest you?

I am a bit surprised.

An intelligence agency has to justify its grossly swollen budgets somehow, doesn't? Those many billions of dollars have to result in the odd arrest  ::)

Upton Sinclair wrote on Sep 13^th, 2012 at 9:36pm:

An intelligence agency has to justify its grossly swollen budgets somehow, doesn't? Those many billions of dollars have to result in the odd arrest  ::)

Ooohhh, it's all a conspiracy against the peaceful citizenry, innit.  Nudge, nudge, innit.
Say no more.

Soren, do you think it's a crime to possess a document?

Do you feel threatened living in the same society with people who possess documents? (apart from your obvious aversion to paper cuts that is).

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 13^th, 2012 at 9:59pm:

Soren, do you think it's a crime to possess a document? Do you feel threatened living in the same society with people who possess documents? (apart from your obvious aversion to paper cuts that is).

When they are jihadis and they possess (and disseminate) jihadi document?
Yes and yes.

I feel quite threatened by jihadis. Mostly because I take them at their word and see what they do to others.

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 13^th, 2012 at 8:52pm:

More thought crimes.... Great to see that freedom of speech in action.. What did he do? Possess a forbidden document? How evil.. Do all you brainless tools feel safer now? One less "document peddler" on the street?

Going by past results i would say these people have been monitored for quite some time before they were arrested,

Its quite likely the Police bugged their homes,phones,internet they would have all sorts of info.

Abu and his mates have already made up their minds. In their eyes it's the big bad government picking on the poor muslims. We have only been told a little piece of what's actually gone down. We''ll soon hear about their overseas travelling. Good bless our security agencies for their vigilance. It's one more reason why I love this country.

They're coming to get you abu. Boogy Woogy Woogy!!!!!

Muslim leader fears backlash after terror raids
:D

That's all these Muslim 'leaders' can ever think of. Arsecovering.
Strangling the jihadis among them, figuratively speaking, would never occur to them. For them to harbour murderous misfits is OK. The rest of us noticing that they are doing so - oh, that'll cause a backlash!

I'd take them all to the barber and give 'em a good shave.

Upton what do you think is a reasonable amount to spend in order to prevent a terrorist attack? Do you think it is a waste of money?

Soren, for all we know it could have been the Muslim community that alerted the authorities. They were very quick to distance themselves from this particular group and seem supportive of the action taken.

Seems the "great crime" the one single arrestee committed was that he supposedly possessed a magazine.

Nevermind the 10 other premises that were raided and no arrests made. The 10 families traumatised, at least they found one fellow in possession of that dangerous magazine. We all feel so much safer now don't we?

How about when the kids of those 10 other families grow up, hating those who supported the intrusion upon their childhood with these trumped up raids? How do yo think they'll feel towards a system that violates them like this? and towards the mindless cheerleaders on the sidelines? These raids are about nothing more than whipping up public opinion into a xenophobic frenzy and justifying intelligence budgets, meanwhile they probably create more possibility of future hostility than they would ever prevent.

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 15^th, 2012 at 12:36am:

Seems the "great crime" the one single arrestee committed was that he supposedly possessed a magazine. Nevermind the 10 other premises that were raided and no arrests made. The 10 families traumatised, at least they found one fellow in possession of that dangerous magazine. We all feel so much safer now don't we? How about when the kids of those 10 other families grow up, hating those who supported the intrusion upon their childhood with these trumped up raids? How do yo think they'll feel towards a system that violates them like this? and towards the mindless cheerleaders on the sidelines? These raids are about nothing more than whipping up public opinion into a xenophobic frenzy and justifying intelligence budgets, meanwhile they probably create more possibility of future hostility than they would ever prevent.

Well they can always migrate back to the islamic paradise they so stupidly left behind to come to this bastard of a country.

BigOl64 wrote on Sep 15^th, 2012 at 7:28am:

Well they can always migrate back to the islamic paradise they so stupidly left behind to come to this bastard of a country.

BigOl64,

How insensitive of you.
/sarc off

Don't you know, that moslems hate and dread to live in majority moslem countries ???

Given a choice, moslems would much rather live among the kuffar.





GOOD AUSTRALIAN BORN MOSLEM SPEAKS TO AN AUSTRALIAN *MOSLEM* AUDIENCE

Use children as troops, says cleric [Sheik Feiz Mohammed]
January 18, 2007
..."We want to have children and offer them as soldiers...Teach them this: There is nothing more beloved to me than wanting to die as a mujahid (holy warrior). Put in their soft, tender hearts the zeal of jihad and a love of martyrdom."
......"The peak, the pinnacle, the crest, the highest point, the pivot, the summit of Islam is jihad," he declares in the film, before denouncing "kaffirs" (non-Muslims).

"Kaffir is the worst word ever written, a sign of infidelity, disbelief, filth, a sign of dirt."
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=94224
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014863.php

BigOl64 wrote on Sep 15^th, 2012 at 7:28am:

Well they can always migrate back to the islamic paradise they so stupidly left behind to come to this bastard of a country.

Muslims usually came to Australia fleeing secular dictatorships, mostly setup directly by the West, either through coup or direct war/invasion/occupation.

This is a known fact. It's got nothing to do with Islam that most refugees are currently Afghans & Iraqis.

Quote:

It's got nothing to do with Islam that most refugees are currently Afghans & Iraqis.

Secular dictatorships eh? Are you suggesting that it has nothing to do with Islam when Iraqi and Afghan Sunnis and Shites start slaughtering each other? Nothing to do with the death penalty for apostasy, blasphemy etc?

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 15^th, 2012 at 8:52am:

BigOl64 wrote on Sep 15th, 2012 at 7:28am: Well they can always migrate back to the islamic paradise they so stupidly left behind to come to this bastard of a country. Muslims usually came to Australia fleeing secular dictatorships, mostly setup directly by the West, either through coup or direct war/invasion/occupation. This is a known fact. It's got nothing to do with Islam that most refugees are currently Afghans & Iraqis.

So how did Anwar Sadat's rule come to an end Abu, was it mossad and the CIA?

What is this well known fact you are on about?

2052 - Afghani people in Immigration detention, mostly Hazara shia fleeing Sunni Taliban
209- Iraqi people in Immigration detention.

2052+209= 2261 Iraqis and Afghans in Immigration detention

We have 6809 people in Immigration detention and only 2261 of them are Iraqi or Afghan which means only 33% of the refugees in detention are from Iraq or Afghanistan.

How does 33% become most of the refugees Abu, is that the Islamic way of doing mathematics?

Source for stats-
http://www.immi.gov.au/managing-australias-borders/detention/_pdf/immigration-detention-statistics-20120731.pdf

Muslims were responsible for murdering a bus of women and children, including 11 month old and pregnant woman in Jerusalem.

They are disgusting group of people.

Quote:

How does 33% become most of the refugees Abu, is that the Islamic way of doing mathematics?

I'm guessing he changes the definition of what is a refugee to suit his argument.

Here we go again - their biggest concern is 'backlash'.



5.10pm:Journalist Jamila Rizvi was shopping at the scene earlier today. She has told ABC News 24 it was much calmer earlier on.She says the women and children who were present earlier have now gone, and believes a small minority has taken over the protest. She says it would be a shame if there was a backlash against the Muslim community in the wake of today's protest.

What is a shame, sweetie, is that the 'religion of peace' i anything but peaceful. That's the shame.



It's always a 'small minority', of course. Hundreds of Lebs chased by the police = small minority.

The supposed 'peaceful majority' can't keep the 'small minority' in its trousers.

SO there will be a backlash, naturally. They cause dam mayhem and then immediately shout 'we're the victims'.

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 15^th, 2012 at 8:52am:

BigOl64 wrote on Sep 15th, 2012 at 7:28am: Well they can always migrate back to the islamic paradise they so stupidly left behind to come to this bastard of a country. Muslims usually came to Australia fleeing secular dictatorships, mostly setup directly by the West, either through coup or direct war/invasion/occupation. This is a known fact. It's got nothing to do with Islam that most refugees are currently Afghans & Iraqis.

Brilliant.

Muslims are fleeing secular dictatorships set up by the West -and where do they flee? To  said West. And then they dam riot against the places they fled to because they are too secular.

These Muslims are  either completely stupid or utterly dishonest. I think both.

This is the way they raise their children to hate. From today's violent protests in Sydney
https://twitter.com/jttozer/status/246847127924375552/photo/1

---

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 15^th, 2012 at 11:42am:

So how did Anwar Sadat's rule come to an end Abu, was it mossad and the CIA?

He was replaced by Hosni Mubarak, perhaps the most Western-oriented ruler in all the Middle East.


Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 15^th, 2012 at 11:42am:

What is this well known fact you are on about? 2052 - Afghani people in Immigration detention, mostly Hazara shia fleeing Sunni Taliban 209- Iraqi people in Immigration detention. 2052+209= 2261 Iraqis and Afghans in Immigration detention

Yes the largest country of origin is indeed Afghanistan. I meant the country which we get the largest number of arrivals from. Obviously not that they make up over 50% of all arrivals. I was wrong on Iraq, but I suspect a few years ago, I would've been right.

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 15^th, 2012 at 9:14pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Sep 15th, 2012 at 11:42am: So how did Anwar Sadat's rule come to an end Abu, was it mossad and the CIA? He was replaced by Hosni Mubarak, perhaps the most Western-oriented ruler in all the Middle East.

You are in a Western country. Willingly, I presume. They haven't confiscated your passport, have they? Your freedoms have not been curtailed? Your opportunities have not been limited? Your welfare is still protected, isn't it? Laws protect your dignity, don't they, regardless of your creed or age or sex or ethnicity, don't they? They do - and you are very happy about all that and enjoy and appreciate all that, don't you? So you must be a very, very Western-oriented man.

So why knock Pa Hosni for trying to be half as Western oriented as you are?

What sort of people have their holding up signs like that. Those protesters are ugly animals. Ugly in every way.

Soren wrote on Sep 15^th, 2012 at 9:41pm:

You are in a Western country. Willingly, I presume. They haven't confiscated your passport, have they? Your freedoms have not been curtailed? Your opportunities have not been limited? Your welfare is still protected, isn't it? Laws protect your dignity, don't they, regardless of your creed or age or sex or ethnicity, don't they? They do - and you are very happy about all that and enjoy and appreciate all that, don't you? So you must be a very, very Western-oriented man. So why knock Pa Hosni for trying to be half as Western oriented as you are?

If I need to point out to you the difference between a Western citizen and a supposedly independent head of state of another country, then I'm not going to bother with you.

freediver wrote on Sep 14^th, 2012 at 12:09pm:

Soren, for all we know it could have been the Muslim community that alerted the authorities. They were very quick to distance themselves from this particular group and seem supportive of the action taken.

Hundreds of noisy Lebs, Somalis and Pakis on Pitt Street - I don't think the authorities needed a phone call from Imam Insh'allah.

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 16^th, 2012 at 7:42am:

Soren wrote on Sep 15th, 2012 at 9:41pm: You are in a Western country. Willingly, I presume. They haven't confiscated your passport, have they? Your freedoms have not been curtailed? Your opportunities have not been limited? Your welfare is still protected, isn't it? Laws protect your dignity, don't they, regardless of your creed or age or sex or ethnicity, don't they? They do - and you are very happy about all that and enjoy and appreciate all that, don't you? So you must be a very, very Western-oriented man. So why knock Pa Hosni for trying to be half as Western oriented as you are? If I need to point out to you the difference between a Western citizen and a supposedly independent head of state of another country, then I'm not going to bother with you.

You mean you you have no answer to your hypocrisy.

You are Western oriented because you are here, willingly, enjoying all that is good about the West.

But you mouth off against it at every opportunity you get, denouncing all the good things that you personally benefit from and which I have listed for you.

I'm merely practising your beloved "free speech", so you should be proud of me, not upset.

Or do you not really believe in the crap you espouse?

Is it all just for show in the end, empty speech that carries no actual meaning in real life situations?

Free speech for thee but no free speech for Anglo-Indian novelists, Danish cartoonists, and now Californian amateur video artistes?

You are not discriminating on religious grounds, by any chance, are you? Exploiting what is given to you but withholding it from others?

Is that typical of Muslims or is it just you? Is this one of those 1% - 99 % things, vast majority of upright versus small minority of extremists kinda hooey?

Are all other Muslims impeccably tolerant of other people's religion, it's only you who want special treatment for Muslims? or is it all Muslims, really?


Can you sort this dilemma for us, please?i

You are the proponents of free speech not us.

You are the ones who claim to implement it (clearly it's a load of bollocks though, free speech so long as you say what we want you to say).

We did not claim to implement it, nor are we obligated to implement it.

So do you really believe in it or not?

Those kids and their parents  carrying around those  beheading signs believed in australian free speech.

Clearly you are not aware of what free speech means Big Dave. It's about allowing speech you don't like. Everyone allows speech they like... that's not free speech though. I'm sure the Soviets didn't mind if you spoke highly of Lenin & Stalin and so on, it's when you spoke against it that you had no free speech. And the West really seems to be no different when it comes down to it.

Them carrying those signs has nothing to do with their belief of free speech, it has to do with Australia's belief in free speech.

And it seems obvious that most do not actually believe in free speech. They talk about free speech, but when it comes to actually having it, they do not accept others to speak freely.

Quote:

Clearly you are not aware of what free speech means Big Dave. It's about allowing speech you don't like. Everyone allows speech they like... that's not free speech though.

Abu haven't you previously tried to claim that Islam does allow freedom, but merely has a slightly different 'take' on it? Why are you sometimes capable of understanding what it means and sometimes totally oblivious to it?


Quote:

And the West really seems to be no different when it comes down to it.

How so?

This is the thing you have to understander brother and sister aussies. There isn't any muslim people siding with us. There's just factions amongst their OWN people. They consider themselves a different people. They ALL side with their own. You are wasting your breathe arguing with Abu. They are his people. he's not on our side. The australian people know this anyway.

Adam if you don't like how Abu runs this board, stop posting here.

Adamant wrote on Sep 19^th, 2012 at 4:16pm:

If I walked through Brisbane with a placard stating all Muslims are devil worshipers and must all be beheaded. I would be arrested for hate speech, but Muslims seem to get away practicing this debauchery with impunity! All, no matter who, should be deported (if possible) to their original country of birth for such disgusting acts, 10 years in jail if not. We have to stamp out the Muslim bigots so that they may enter mainstream Australian society and be welcomed by it. To this end I recommend that at least 50% or all the ranting’s by the original mad Mo be classed as hate speech and be deleted from the Quran. P/S Abu, I have started to write my postings in word so that if you delete them it will only take a Mo to restore them.

Actually thats not true. All those ppl with the hateful signs have been targeted by the police since then. They were on the news announcing that they even had cameras in helicopters to help them identify them. They are not getting away with it.

SOB

Quote:

All those ppl with the hateful signs have been targeted by the police since then. They were on the news announcing that they even had cameras in helicopters to help them identify them. They are not getting away with it.

Spot has made this claim dozens of times already. He is blissfully unaware of people asking him to back them up or telling him he is full of poo.

freediver wrote on Sep 20^th, 2012 at 8:24am:

Quote: All those ppl with the hateful signs have been targeted by the police since then. They were on the news announcing that they even had cameras in helicopters to help them identify them. They are not getting away with it. Spot has made this claim dozens of times already. He is blissfully unaware of people asking him to back them up or telling him he is full of poo.

Turn on the news or google it. They interviewed the police spokesmen in NSW over it. If you dont follow the news then why do you run a political forum?

SOB

All I got to say is we never had these problems under the White Australia Policy, we never voted to get rid of it, we should not have to vote to return to it. The Muslim burden on Australia is an imported problem. The Founders of this country could see the problems of non white immigration. We would never of had Federation if they didn't.

BlOoDy RiPpEr wrote on Sep 20^th, 2012 at 9:40am:

All I got to say is we never had these problems under the White Australia Policy, we never voted to get rid of it, we should not have to vote to return to it. The Muslim burden on Australia is an imported problem. The Founders of this country could see the problems of non white immigration. We would never of had Federation if they didn't.

There are no white muslims? Well well i didnt know that. Are all ppl of a non-white tint muslim?

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 20^th, 2012 at 10:02am:

BlOoDy RiPpEr wrote on Sep 20th, 2012 at 9:40am: All I got to say is we never had these problems under the White Australia Policy, we never voted to get rid of it, we should not have to vote to return to it. The Muslim burden on Australia is an imported problem. The Founders of this country could see the problems of non white immigration. We would never of had Federation if they didn't. There are no white muslims? Well well i didnt know that. Are all ppl of a non-white tint muslim? SOB

Sure there are white Muslims but he would have none of his dark brother muslims to lead him down the terrorist path. besides being white under the White Australia Policy did not mean Automatic entry. Most of the White ones would of got knocked back as well. It was about who could be assimilated into our society and passed off as an Aussie. If it was a case of being to hard of a challenge well they set the odds against them so they didnt get in.

Quote:

It was about who could be assimilated into our society and passed off as an Aussie.

Since when is skin colour indicative of an ability to assimilate into society?

Annie Anthrax wrote on Sep 20^th, 2012 at 10:17am:

Quote: It was about who could be assimilated into our society and passed off as an Aussie. Since when is skin colour indicative of an ability to assimilate into society?

1901 Federation.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 20^th, 2012 at 9:30am:

freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2012 at 8:24am: Quote: All those ppl with the hateful signs have been targeted by the police since then. They were on the news announcing that they even had cameras in helicopters to help them identify them. They are not getting away with it. Spot has made this claim dozens of times already. He is blissfully unaware of people asking him to back them up or telling him he is full of poo. Turn on the news or google it. They interviewed the police spokesmen in NSW over it. If you dont follow the news then why do you run a political forum? SOB

Earth to spot - the police said that the people carrying the signs did nothing wrong. One of them even turned themselves in voluntarily, and the police told her to go away. Do you have any idea what people were actually arrested for?

freediver wrote on Sep 20^th, 2012 at 12:29pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 20th, 2012 at 9:30am: freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2012 at 8:24am: Quote: All those ppl with the hateful signs have been targeted by the police since then. They were on the news announcing that they even had cameras in helicopters to help them identify them. They are not getting away with it. Spot has made this claim dozens of times already. He is blissfully unaware of people asking him to back them up or telling him he is full of poo. Turn on the news or google it. They interviewed the police spokesmen in NSW over it. If you dont follow the news then why do you run a political forum? SOB Earth to spot - the police said that the people carrying the signs did nothing wrong. One of them even turned themselves in voluntarily, and the police told her to go away. Do you have any idea what people were actually arrested for?

Well they must have changed their story since the first day after then. However that makes sense since nobody was prosecuted for saying gillard should be drowned in a chaff back or hanged . . .

SOV

it IS GOOD to keep up-to-date with news. otherwise you never really know what is going on. most of our problems can be attributed to ignorance
Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 20^th, 2012 at 1:47pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2012 at 12:29pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 20th, 2012 at 9:30am: freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2012 at 8:24am: Quote: All those ppl with the hateful signs have been targeted by the police since then. They were on the news announcing that they even had cameras in helicopters to help them identify them. They are not getting away with it. Spot has made this claim dozens of times already. He is blissfully unaware of people asking him to back them up or telling him he is full of poo. Turn on the news or google it. They interviewed the police spokesmen in NSW over it. If you dont follow the news then why do you run a political forum? SOB Earth to spot - the police said that the people carrying the signs did nothing wrong. One of them even turned themselves in voluntarily, and the police told her to go away. Do you have any idea what people were actually arrested for? Well they must have changed their story since the first day after then. However that makes sense since nobody was prosecuted for saying gillard should be drowned in a chaff back or hanged . . . SOV

sanofi wrote on Sep 20^th, 2012 at 2:10pm:

it IS GOOD to keep up-to-date with news. otherwise you never really know what is going on. most of our problems can be attributed to ignorance Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 20th, 2012 at 1:47pm: freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2012 at 12:29pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 20th, 2012 at 9:30am: freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2012 at 8:24am: Quote: All those ppl with the hateful signs have been targeted by the police since then. They were on the news announcing that they even had cameras in helicopters to help them identify them. They are not getting away with it. Spot has made this claim dozens of times already. He is blissfully unaware of people asking him to back them up or telling him he is full of poo. Turn on the news or google it. They interviewed the police spokesmen in NSW over it. If you dont follow the news then why do you run a political forum? SOB Earth to spot - the police said that the people carrying the signs did nothing wrong. One of them even turned themselves in voluntarily, and the police told her to go away. Do you have any idea what people were actually arrested for? Well they must have changed their story since the first day after then. However that makes sense since nobody was prosecuted for saying gillard should be drowned in a chaff back or hanged . . . SOV

Yeah well - the media does whatever they like. They leave important things out and add stuff. They twist things around for whatever agenda they have. I watch QT though because its live apparently though its not and its just 1 big publicity stunt really.

SOB

Big Dave wrote on Sep 20^th, 2012 at 5:05pm:

The woman who's kid was holding up one of the beheading signs reckons she found the sign  in a park. HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! And get this- she reckons she didn't know what beheading meant. (rolling on the ground laughing).

She may not have known - it would explain why she got the kid to pose with it. She was acting like a tourist.

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 20^th, 2012 at 6:05pm:

She may not have known - it would explain why she got the kid to pose with it. She was acting like a tourist.

Thats the lamest, most far-fetched "explanation" I've ever heard.

What would explain it better is that she thought it was funny - like the people who post photos of their babies 'smoking' bongs on facebook. 

"hohoho look at little Iqbal - he's going to grow up to a fearsome jihadi, just like his daddy".

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 20^th, 2012 at 1:47pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2012 at 12:29pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 20th, 2012 at 9:30am: freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2012 at 8:24am: Quote: All those ppl with the hateful signs have been targeted by the police since then. They were on the news announcing that they even had cameras in helicopters to help them identify them. They are not getting away with it. Spot has made this claim dozens of times already. He is blissfully unaware of people asking him to back them up or telling him he is full of poo. Turn on the news or google it. They interviewed the police spokesmen in NSW over it. If you dont follow the news then why do you run a political forum? SOB Earth to spot - the police said that the people carrying the signs did nothing wrong. One of them even turned themselves in voluntarily, and the police told her to go away. Do you have any idea what people were actually arrested for? Well they must have changed their story since the first day after then. SOV

No Spot. It has merely taken that long to get through to you, and believe me, it wasn't for lack of trying.

It is kind of disturbing how you will repeat something so obviously wrong over and over again, completely oblivious to people pointing it out to you. Did you even notice all the comments about this particular claim?

... wrote on Sep 20^th, 2012 at 6:12pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 20th, 2012 at 6:05pm: She may not have known - it would explain why she got the kid to pose with it. She was acting like a tourist. Thats the lamest, most far-fetched "explanation" I've ever heard. What would explain it better is that she thought it was funny - like the people who post photos of their babies 'smoking' bongs on facebook.  "hohoho look at little Iqbal - he's going to grow up to a fearsome jihadi, just like his daddy".

It wasnt an "explanation" it was a "possibility". Yours is unlikely though. Anything is possible though - the fact that she turned herself in tells us something.

SOB

freediver wrote on Sep 20^th, 2012 at 6:41pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 20th, 2012 at 1:47pm: freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2012 at 12:29pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 20th, 2012 at 9:30am: freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2012 at 8:24am: Quote: All those ppl with the hateful signs have been targeted by the police since then. They were on the news announcing that they even had cameras in helicopters to help them identify them. They are not getting away with it. Spot has made this claim dozens of times already. He is blissfully unaware of people asking him to back them up or telling him he is full of poo. Turn on the news or google it. They interviewed the police spokesmen in NSW over it. If you dont follow the news then why do you run a political forum? SOB Earth to spot - the police said that the people carrying the signs did nothing wrong. One of them even turned themselves in voluntarily, and the police told her to go away. Do you have any idea what people were actually arrested for? Well they must have changed their story since the first day after then. SOV No Spot. It has merely taken that long to get through to you, and believe me, it wasn't for lack of trying. It is kind of disturbing how you will repeat something so obviously wrong over and over again, completely oblivious to people pointing it out to you. Did you even notice all the comments about this particular claim?

No freediver you just cant comprehend anything different to your own thoughts. If you didnt hear it it must not have happened.

SOB

Quote:

It wasnt an "explanation" it was a "possibility".

I guess you could use this as justification for everything you post.


Quote:

No freediver you just cant comprehend anything different to your own thoughts. If you didnt hear it it must not have happened.

It didn't happen spot. It was all in your imagination. You have repeated it dozens of times on this forum, and have only just realised you were even getting a response.

freediver wrote on Sep 20^th, 2012 at 6:41pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 20th, 2012 at 1:47pm: freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2012 at 12:29pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 20th, 2012 at 9:30am: freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2012 at 8:24am: Quote: All those ppl with the hateful signs have been targeted by the police since then. They were on the news announcing that they even had cameras in helicopters to help them identify them. They are not getting away with it. Spot has made this claim dozens of times already. He is blissfully unaware of people asking him to back them up or telling him he is full of poo. Turn on the news or google it. They interviewed the police spokesmen in NSW over it. If you dont follow the news then why do you run a political forum? SOB Earth to spot - the police said that the people carrying the signs did nothing wrong. One of them even turned themselves in voluntarily, and the police told her to go away. Do you have any idea what people were actually arrested for? Well they must have changed their story since the first day after then. SOV No Spot. It has merely taken that long to get through to you, and believe me, it wasn't for lack of trying. It is kind of disturbing how you will repeat something so obviously wrong over and over again, completely oblivious to people pointing it out to you. Did you even notice all the comments about this particular claim?

You arent making any sense. This crap only happened last week. Possibly while i was suspended for reasons unknown.

SOB

Have you forgotten already why you were suspended? Or did you never even realise that you got a response?

You have posted absurd claims about the people holding the placards 'disappearing,' getting arrested etc, over and over again, completely oblivious to the reality. That is what I am talking about. Have you forgotten making these claims?

freediver wrote on Sep 21^st, 2012 at 8:28am:

Have you forgotten already why you were suspended? Or did you never even realise that you got a response? You have posted absurd claims about the people holding the placards 'disappearing,' getting arrested etc, over and over again, completely oblivious to the reality. That is what I am talking about. Have you forgotten making these claims?

you never told me why I was suspended. You said something about "being insulting" but as far as i remember i didnt say anything worse than anyone else and was mainly mimicking ppl back @ themselves anyway.

Disappearing? What? I dont think i said anything ab out ppl with placards disappearing. Unless you are misrepresenting where i said they could disappear if the ASIO or cops or whoever were to find them plotting?

SOB

I have asked you several times what you meant by this. As usual, you were completely oblivious.


Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 16^th, 2012 at 8:13am:

red baron wrote on Sep 16th, 2012 at 8:05am: 'WE' didn't do anything to them We brought them here from the always upheaval of their own countries. Then THEY sh.t all over us by repaying our kindness with the disgusting display of yesterday. Wake up to yourself and get real about this and just how bloody serious this configures for our future. Dont forget our "disgusting displays" of protesting in QLD ATM and the occupy stuff recently. . . . . The ones with the "beheading" signs are prolly now on watchlists. They wont last long. SOB

freediver wrote on Sep 21^st, 2012 at 1:57pm:

I have asked you several times what you meant by this. As usual, you were completely oblivious. Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 16th, 2012 at 8:13am: red baron wrote on Sep 16th, 2012 at 8:05am: 'WE' didn't do anything to them We brought them here from the always upheaval of their own countries. Then THEY sh.t all over us by repaying our kindness with the disgusting display of yesterday. Wake up to yourself and get real about this and just how bloody serious this configures for our future. Dont forget our "disgusting displays" of protesting in QLD ATM and the occupy stuff recently. . . . . The ones with the "beheading" signs are prolly now on watchlists. They wont last long. SOB

If you did ask me "several times" i didnt see it. I was prolly saying that the muslim protest wasnt the only protest in recent times and that the police and ASIO etc know who the radicals are now because they had signs so if they are doing anything like plotting they will get caught because now they are being watched.

SOB

Imagine how much you pathetic hypocrites would cry if they invaded and bombed us for decades, starved us economically killing millions and raped our culture and society.
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( 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Izzat U deathridesahorse?

Would you fight like a man if you knew you could?

bobbythefap1 wrote on Sep 21^st, 2012 at 5:08pm:

Imagine how much you pathetic hypocrites would cry if they invaded and bombed us for decades, starved us economically killing millions and raped our culture and society. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( etc

So are these people Australian or not? The apologetics seem to want it both ways.

1) These people are Australian. Don't say "send them back to where they came from". These are born here Australian people who have a right to complain.

2) How would you like if you were bombed like these people. Look at the pain we have caused them.

These two points are in opposition to each other. So simple question; Are these people Australian or not?

1) If they are Australian; then they are just as responsible as any other Australian of "bombing" Arab countries and "killing millions" of people so can't point the finger.

2) If they are not Australian; then they can go back to where they came from if they don't like our way of life.

What one is it?

Would you fight like a man if you knew you could?

How very cryptic...

Muslims are just muslims. Nothing else. There is no such thing as an australian muslim. The difference is amongst their own. Some are progressive and peaceful, while others are ratbags.

Big Dave wrote on Sep 21^st, 2012 at 5:44pm:

Muslims are just muslims. Nothing else. There is no such thing as an australian muslim. The difference is amongst their own. Some are progressive and peaceful, while others are ratbags.

There are australian muslims. Sorry to rain on your parade. There are also australian buddhists and catholics and atheists but no australian jews because apparently jews are all israeli no matter where they were born.

SOB

Quote:

If you did ask me "several times" i didnt see it.

Of course not. Like I said, you were too busy spewing the same tripe over and over again to notice anyone attempting to correct you.


Quote:

I was prolly saying that the muslim protest wasnt the only protest in recent times and that the police and ASIO etc know who the radicals are now because they had signs so if they are doing anything like plotting they will get caught because now they are being watched.

No Spot, you did not link it to any other crime, real or potential. You kept sprouting this crap about holding the sign. Here you are again, in the same thread, after I pulled you up on it the first time:


Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 16^th, 2012 at 10:44am:

This whole thing seems contrived to me. The ones with the beheading signs will pay - their faces are known now. SOB

This is classic spot - repeating yourself, completely wrong, completely oblivious to what is going on in the thread around you, impossible to get through to. Do you ever stop and think before you post?

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 21^st, 2012 at 6:10pm:

Big Dave wrote on Sep 21st, 2012 at 5:44pm: Muslims are just muslims. Nothing else. There is no such thing as an australian muslim. The difference is amongst their own. Some are progressive and peaceful, while others are ratbags. There are australian muslims. Sorry to rain on your parade. There are also australian buddhists and catholics and atheists but no australian jews because apparently jews are all israeli no matter where they were born. SOB

I'm sorry to burst your balloon Spot but australian to muslims is purely geographical. It's not the same as I or maybe you see yourself. How can they be australian when everybody that is not a muslim is a kafur. Go on aussie muslim and ask them. They are muslim end of story.

Jews are given Israeli citizenship if they ask for it. Islam in comparison compels Muslims to travel to Mecca and to move to and fight for any Caliphate that may arise. You don't see many Jews saying that Judaism compels the world's Jews to come and fight for Israel. There are plenty of Jews who want nothing to do with Israel, or even oppose its existence.

freediver wrote on Sep 21^st, 2012 at 6:21pm:

Quote: If you did ask me "several times" i didnt see it. Of course not. Like I said, you were too busy spewing the same tripe over and over again to notice anyone attempting to correct you. [quote]I was prolly saying that the muslim protest wasnt the only protest in recent times and that the police and ASIO etc know who the radicals are now because they had signs so if they are doing anything like plotting they will get caught because now they are being watched.

No Spot, you did not link it to any other crime, real or potential. You kept sprouting this crap about holding the sign. Here you are again, in the same thread, after I pulled you up on it the first time:


Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 16^th, 2012 at 10:44am:

This whole thing seems contrived to me. The ones with the beheading signs will pay - their faces are known now. SOB

This is classic spot - repeating yourself, completely wrong, completely oblivious to what is going on in the thread around you, impossible to get through to. Do you ever stop and think before you post?[/quote]

What are you talking about? What am i "wrong" about? Are you saying the aussie security forces are not aware of the radicals with the beheading signs?

SOB

Big Dave wrote on Sep 21^st, 2012 at 6:31pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 21st, 2012 at 6:10pm: Big Dave wrote on Sep 21st, 2012 at 5:44pm: Muslims are just muslims. Nothing else. There is no such thing as an australian muslim. The difference is amongst their own. Some are progressive and peaceful, while others are ratbags. There are australian muslims. Sorry to rain on your parade. There are also australian buddhists and catholics and atheists but no australian jews because apparently jews are all israeli no matter where they were born. SOB I'm sorry to burst your balloon Spot but australian to muslims is purely geographical. It's not the same as I or maybe you see yourself. How can they be australian when everybody that is not a muslim is a kafur. Go on aussie muslim and ask them. They are muslim end of story.

No just the radicals are like that.

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 21^st, 2012 at 6:10pm:

Big Dave wrote on Sep 21st, 2012 at 5:44pm: Muslims are just muslims. Nothing else. There is no such thing as an australian muslim. The difference is amongst their own. Some are progressive and peaceful, while others are ratbags. There are australian muslims. Sorry to rain on your parade. There are also australian buddhists and catholics and atheists but no australian jews because apparently jews are all israeli no matter where they were born. SOB

It is a gross abuse of the unsuspecting Ozpolitic community to leave such loads of crap lying around. Dog walkers are obliged to clean up their turds. Why not this SOB?

I protest.


Look at the Australian soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. How many are Jews? How many are Muslims? You sclerotic bloody moron.

Quote:

Are you saying the aussie security forces are not aware of the radicals with the beheading signs?

I am saying that that they will not 'pay'. They will not 'disappear'. They will not go to jail. Nothing will happen to them. They did not break any laws. Anyone who was planning serious mischief would not advertise it that way, so it is not like ASIO now knows who all the potential terrorists are either. All it shows is that there are a significant number of people who completely reject fundamental human rights like freedom of speech, and an equally significant number of idiots gagging to make excuses for them.

freediver wrote on Sep 21^st, 2012 at 8:08pm:

Quote: Are you saying the aussie security forces are not aware of the radicals with the beheading signs? I am saying that that they will not 'pay'. They will not 'disappear'. They will not go to jail. Nothing will happen to them. They did not break any laws. Anyone who was planning serious mischief would not advertise it that way, so it is not like ASIO now knows who all the potential terrorists are either. All it shows is that there are a significant number of people who completely reject fundamental human rights like freedom of speech, and an equally significant number of idiots gagging to make excuses for them.

HEY!!!!

Are you calling SOB a gagging idiot??? I'll get the Mods onto you!!!

Soren wrote on Sep 21^st, 2012 at 7:32pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 21st, 2012 at 6:10pm: Big Dave wrote on Sep 21st, 2012 at 5:44pm: Muslims are just muslims. Nothing else. There is no such thing as an australian muslim. The difference is amongst their own. Some are progressive and peaceful, while others are ratbags. There are australian muslims. Sorry to rain on your parade. There are also australian buddhists and catholics and atheists but no australian jews because apparently jews are all israeli no matter where they were born. SOB It is a gross abuse of the unsuspecting Ozpolitic community to leave such loads of crap lying around. Dog walkers are obliged to clean up their turds. Why not this SOB? I protest. Look at the Australian soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. How many are Jews? How many are Muslims? You sclerotic bloody moron.

Reported

SOB

freediver wrote on Sep 21^st, 2012 at 8:08pm:

Quote: Are you saying the aussie security forces are not aware of the radicals with the beheading signs? I am saying that that they will not 'pay'. They will not 'disappear'. They will not go to jail. Nothing will happen to them. They did not break any laws. Anyone who was planning serious mischief would not advertise it that way, so it is not like ASIO now knows who all the potential terrorists are either. All it shows is that there are a significant number of people who completely reject fundamental human rights like freedom of speech, and an equally significant number of idiots gagging to make excuses for them.

You left out the main part of my post so you could argue with a non-existent point.

ASIO now has them in their sights. They now know who the psychopaths are. They are watching them. If they do anything they will be caught. I think you will find that ppl that do those kinds of things are so sure they are right that they are not smart. If they were they wouldn't have the signs. They are radicals. Radicals think they will never get caught because god is on their side.

SOB

Do you think that ASIO also has Abu in their sights? How many Muslims do you think they are watching?

freediver wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2012 at 10:14am:

Do you think that ASIO also has Abu in their sights? How many Muslims do you think they are watching?

Hahahahaha! HAHAHAAHAHA! How the heck would i know? They apparently "foil" terrorist attack attempts all the time so they are watching the radicals presumably . . .

SOB

You seemed pretty sure of yourself before. Why are you so certain that ASIO is now watching everyone who held up a sign at a protest, but you have no idea if they are watching a Muslim who goes online and promotes a far broader ideology that includes the death penalty for blasphemy?

freediver wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2012 at 10:54am:

You seemed pretty sure of yourself before. Why are you so certain that ASIO is now watching everyone who held up a sign at a protest, but you have no idea if they are watching a Muslim who goes online and promotes a far broader ideology that includes the death penalty for blasphemy?

Fine freediver you dont think the police or ASIO are watching out for terrorists. I guess you will just have to live in fear then.

SOB

This is what I am saying Spot:


Quote:

I am saying that that they will not 'pay'. They will not 'disappear'. They will not go to jail. Nothing will happen to them. They did not break any laws. Anyone who was planning serious mischief would not advertise it that way, so it is not like ASIO now knows who all the potential terrorists are either. All it shows is that there are a significant number of people who completely reject fundamental human rights like freedom of speech, and an equally significant number of idiots gagging to make excuses for them.

freediver wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2012 at 1:00pm:

This is what I am saying Spot: Quote: I am saying that that they will not 'pay'. They will not 'disappear'. They will not go to jail. Nothing will happen to them. They did not break any laws. Anyone who was planning serious mischief would not advertise it that way, so it is not like ASIO now knows who all the potential terrorists are either. All it shows is that there are a significant number of people who completely reject fundamental human rights like freedom of speech, and an equally significant number of idiots gagging to make excuses for them.

And you know what im saying. They are known now because they labelled themselves with signs. They are now in the watchlist and they WILL pay if they do try to break the law.

If they were to be "punished" now just for having sings there would be a lot more ppl than just them being punished. What will they do with them all? All the ppl that threaten gillard with death . . .  Rudd . . . . etc . . .. Nevermind i already know what you think of free speech dont i.

SOB

bobbythefap1 wrote on Sep 21^st, 2012 at 5:08pm:

Imagine how much you pathetic hypocrites would cry if they invaded and bombed us for decades, starved us economically killing millions and raped our culture and society. :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( etc

You poor, poor, things.

#1,
Moslems are always innocent.

Moslems are always oppressed by non-moslems.

Moslems never deserve hardships [....see #1].

Moslems never, ever, do anything to deserve retaliation against them.








Its those damned nasty kufar,    .....they are always hurting us moslems [without reason] !!


IMAGE...
http://www.zionism-israel.com/ezine/Isllam2.jpg
London, moslem street protests.
'Demonstrating' just how 'peaceful' ISLAM and moslem really are.



THOSE PLACARDS, AT A MOSLEM STREET PROTEST IN LONDON READ.....

"Slay those who insult Islam"
"Behead those who insult Islam"
"Massacre those who insult Islam"
"Butcher those who mock Islam"
"Europe you will pay, demolition is on its way"
"Europe you will pay, extermination is on its way"
"Exterminate those who slander Islam"
"Europe is the cancer, Islam is the answer"
"Islam will dominate the world"
"Freedom go to hell"
"Europe take some lessons from 9/11"
"Be prepared for the real Holocaust"
"BBC = British Blasphemic Crusaders"







"......the curse of Allah is on those without Faith."
Koran 2.089


"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98


"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11


"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves....."
Koran 48.29


"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123


"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111


"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29


"O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter.
Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things."
Koran 9.38, 39


And on, and on, and on it goes.......

Quote:

And you know what im saying.

Actually Spot, most of the time I don't have a clue and neither does anyone else, which is why I asked you dozens of times WTF you were on about. I am still not sure. After apparently acknowledging they would not 'disappear', you seemed pretty confident about ASIO keeping a close eye on these people because of their views, but when I brought it home to the more familiar example of Abu, you went back to a state of confusion. Now of course you are back to being confident about what you think. No doubt you will start insisting again that they will all disappear and we can relive this conversation again.

freediver wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2012 at 7:37pm:

Quote: And you know what im saying. Actually Spot, most of the time I don't have a clue and neither does anyone else, which is why I asked you dozens of times WTF you were on about. I am still not sure. After apparently acknowledging they would not 'disappear', you seemed pretty confident about ASIO keeping a close eye on these people because of their views, but when I brought it home to the more familiar example of Abu, you went back to a state of confusion. Now of course you are back to being confident about what you think. No doubt you will start insisting again that they will all disappear and we can relive this conversation again.

What has abu got to do with it? Was he there carrying a sign? More strawmen . . .

SOB

I am coming  down there for a holiday before the new year. Brit citizen. maybe work with my cuz. if I like it I will stay. my christian friends like me. we must get on together. tolerate all faiths except one

Cobra wrote on Sep 24^th, 2012 at 12:05pm:

I am coming  down there for a holiday before the new year. Brit citizen. maybe work with my cuz. if I like it I will stay. my christian friends like me. we must get on together. tolerate all faiths except one

What you dont like scientologists?

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2012 at 6:15am:

Soren wrote on Sep 21st, 2012 at 7:32pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 21st, 2012 at 6:10pm: Big Dave wrote on Sep 21st, 2012 at 5:44pm: Muslims are just muslims. Nothing else. There is no such thing as an australian muslim. The difference is amongst their own. Some are progressive and peaceful, while others are ratbags. There are australian muslims. Sorry to rain on your parade. There are also australian buddhists and catholics and atheists but no australian jews because apparently jews are all israeli no matter where they were born. SOB It is a gross abuse of the unsuspecting Ozpolitic community to leave such loads of crap lying around. Dog walkers are obliged to clean up their turds. Why not this SOB? I protest. Look at the Australian soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. How many are Jews? How many are Muslims? You sclerotic bloody moron. Reported SOB

generally statements couched in such basic, gross imagery are symptomatic of 'phage'. an early sign is responding to a well reasoned, thoughtful observation with rubbish and insults. the subject of muslims and their nationality deserves better. please leave this thread.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 25^th, 2012 at 6:07am:

Cobra wrote on Sep 24th, 2012 at 12:05pm: I am coming  down there for a holiday before the new year. Brit citizen. maybe work with my cuz. if I like it I will stay. my christian friends like me. we must get on together. tolerate all faiths except one no, I quite like Tom Cruise. I do not like Jews. What you dont like scientologists? SOB

Cobra wrote on Sep 25^th, 2012 at 9:30am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 25th, 2012 at 6:07am: Cobra wrote on Sep 24th, 2012 at 12:05pm: I am coming  down there for a holiday before the new year. Brit citizen. maybe work with my cuz. if I like it I will stay. my christian friends like me. we must get on together. tolerate all faiths except one no, I quite like Tom Cruise. I do not like Jews. What you dont like scientologists? SOB

Are you talkin to me? Are you talkin to me?

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMjAwNDU3MzcyOV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMjc0MTIxMw@@._V1._SY314_CR12,0,214,314_.jpg

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 24^th, 2012 at 4:42am:

freediver wrote on Sep 23rd, 2012 at 7:37pm: Quote: And you know what im saying. Actually Spot, most of the time I don't have a clue and neither does anyone else, which is why I asked you dozens of times WTF you were on about. I am still not sure. After apparently acknowledging they would not 'disappear', you seemed pretty confident about ASIO keeping a close eye on these people because of their views, but when I brought it home to the more familiar example of Abu, you went back to a state of confusion. Now of course you are back to being confident about what you think. No doubt you will start insisting again that they will all disappear and we can relive this conversation again. What has abu got to do with it? Was he there carrying a sign? More strawmen . . . SOB

Ah spot, how quickly you forget what you were talking about 5 minutes earlier. I brought up Abu as an example because he has similar views about apostasy. At this point you suddenly lost your conviction about ASIO keeping track of every Muslim they can find with objectionable views.

freediver wrote on Sep 25^th, 2012 at 8:07pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 24th, 2012 at 4:42am: freediver wrote on Sep 23rd, 2012 at 7:37pm: Quote: And you know what im saying. Actually Spot, most of the time I don't have a clue and neither does anyone else, which is why I asked you dozens of times WTF you were on about. I am still not sure. After apparently acknowledging they would not 'disappear', you seemed pretty confident about ASIO keeping a close eye on these people because of their views, but when I brought it home to the more familiar example of Abu, you went back to a state of confusion. Now of course you are back to being confident about what you think. No doubt you will start insisting again that they will all disappear and we can relive this conversation again. What has abu got to do with it? Was he there carrying a sign? More strawmen . . . SOB Ah spot, how quickly you forget what you were talking about 5 minutes earlier. I brought up Abu as an example because he has similar views about apostasy. At this point you suddenly lost your conviction about ASIO keeping track of every Muslim they can find with objectionable views.

No - I stated my opinion (several times because you always need it repeated over and over). Here it is again: I have no idea about abu. I have not seen him say that ppl should be beheaded. You seem to have an obsession with him. The topic was the ppl with the signs in the protest. Not on the forum. I have no idea if ASIO (or whoever) are watching anyone here. My point was that those ppl with the signs have come out of the closet so to speak and are now known.

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 26^th, 2012 at 5:46am:

No - I stated my opinion (several times because you always need it repeated over and over). Here it is again: I have no idea about abu. I have not seen him say that ppl should be beheaded. You seem to have an obsession with him.

freediver seems to believe in the concept of guilt by association. If you belong to the same religion or social club or maybe even live in the same municipality as someone else, then you must therefore hold the exact same ideals and sentiments as them, and you must be accountable for each and every action they do, or word they utter. Of course it only applies to Muslims, not the wider population.

Because of course Muslims are the monolithic "other" that contain no variance or individuality.

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 26^th, 2012 at 6:40am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 26th, 2012 at 5:46am: No - I stated my opinion (several times because you always need it repeated over and over). Here it is again: I have no idea about abu. I have not seen him say that ppl should be beheaded. You seem to have an obsession with him. freediver seems to believe in the concept of guilt by association. If you belong to the same religion or social club or maybe even live in the same municipality as someone else, then you must therefore hold the exact same ideals and sentiments as them, and you must be accountable for each and every action they do, or word they utter. Of course it only applies to Muslims, not the wider population. Because of course Muslims are the monolithic "other" that contain no variance or individuality.

There might be bikies with hearts of gold - but membership to the gang brings it's reputation with it.  Anyway, who can you blame - you weren't born into Islam, you willingly signed up for it. 

Quote:

I have no idea about abu. I have not seen him say that ppl should be beheaded.

I think his preferred method is stoning them to death.


Quote:

The topic was the ppl with the signs in the protest.

You are confused about what thread you are in again Spot. Am I not allowed to ask whether your views are consistent in slightly different circumstances?

... wrote on Sep 26^th, 2012 at 10:26am:

There might be bikies with hearts of gold - but membership to the gang brings it's reputation with it.

I think the two are a little different, don't you?


... wrote on Sep 26^th, 2012 at 10:26am:

Anyway, who can you blame - you weren't born into Islam, you willingly signed up for it.

So what? How on earth is this relevant?

Quote:

I think the two are a little different, don't you?

Sure. Muhammed rode a horse, not a bike. Would you like to explain how they are different Abu? Compared to Muhammed, I think the bikie gangs are pretty tame. Muhammed killed more people than every bikie gang ever, combined. Then there is all the rapes.

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 26^th, 2012 at 8:27pm:

... wrote on Sep 26th, 2012 at 10:26am: There might be bikies with hearts of gold - but membership to the gang brings it's reputation with it. I think the two are a little different, don't you? ... wrote on Sep 26th, 2012 at 10:26am: Anyway, who can you blame - you weren't born into Islam, you willingly signed up for it.  So what? How on earth is this relevant?

troll elvis is not making sense, surely. he posts sometimes like he's under the influence.. sometime he posts intelligent material, but that is plagiarised..he likes to have 'fun' with his troll gang members spoiling threads with tripe..

freediver wrote on Sep 26^th, 2012 at 12:36pm:

Quote: I have no idea about abu. I have not seen him say that ppl should be beheaded. I think his preferred method is stoning them to death. [quote]The topic was the ppl with the signs in the protest.

You are confused about what thread you are in again Spot. Am I not allowed to ask whether your views are consistent in slightly different circumstances?[/quote]

But it was a specific circumstance. It has nothing to do with others. The protest was covered on TV and by police helicopters. That isnt translatable to a forum.

SOB

Of course it is 'translatable' Spot. Everything Abu has ever posted on this forum is still available for anyone to see.

Are you suggesting that ASIO is only interested in the potential terrorists that advertise their hostility on TV? Why would they apply a different standard to the internet?

freediver wrote on Sep 27^th, 2012 at 8:20am:

Of course it is 'translatable' Spot. Everything Abu has ever posted on this forum is still available for anyone to see. Are you suggesting that ASIO is only interested in the potential terrorists that advertise their hostility on TV? Why would they apply a different standard to the internet?

What is your problem? My comment was about the protesters. Why do you have to drag it all over the place and change the meaning?

SOB

I am not changing the meaning. I am asking whether your views are consistent and meaningful. I am pointing out how absurd they are when taken out of the very narrow context you are attempting to confine them to. ASIO does not have one policy for the Sydney protestors and a different set of policies for the rest of reality.

The fact that you recognise the absurdity as soon as the context changes is a good sign. Now you just have to think about the source of your cognitive dissonance.

freediver wrote on Sep 27^th, 2012 at 12:29pm:

I am not changing the meaning. I am asking whether your views are consistent and meaningful. I am pointing out how absurd they are when taken out of the very narrow context you are attempting to confine them to. ASIO does not have one policy for the Sydney protestors and a different set of policies for the rest of reality. The fact that you recognise the absurdity as soon as the context changes is a good sign. Now you just have to think about the source of your cognitive dissonance.

I said ASIO or WHOEVER. Gawd do you really not understand english? The ppl with the signs are known now.

Are you saying they arent? Are you saying they arent going to watch them now?

How do they make these pre-emtive arrests then? How do they find ppl building bombs before they use them?

Or is it all made up?

YOU answer some questions.

SOB

Spot there are plenty of ways to track down people who are actually plotting terrorism. I cannot act as a substitute for using your own imagination. Anyone who is serious about it is going to try to keep a low profile, not advertise their hostility on national TV. In any case the relevance to the protests is fairly marginal. Being at the bottom of a very long terrorist watch list does not somehow nullify the attack on freedom of speech or stop people forming violent mobs.

freediver wrote on Sep 27^th, 2012 at 5:54pm:

Spot there are plenty of ways to track down people who are actually plotting terrorism. I cannot act as a substitute for using your own imagination. Anyone who is serious about it is going to try to keep a low profile, not advertise their hostility on national TV. In any case the relevance to the protests is fairly marginal. Being at the bottom of a very long terrorist watch list does not somehow nullify the attack on freedom of speech or stop people forming violent mobs.

Anyone advertising it with signs though is obviously psychotic and in need of being watched. They prolly didnt even realise they would be all over the TV. How do you know they would be @ the bottom of a watch list?

SOB

The same way you know that ASIO is onto them.

Enough is enough, Get these people out of this country.

Which people? The white trash who took over someone else's country and now think they can dictate who can and can't come here?

Here here!

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 18^th, 2012 at 9:19pm:

Which people? The white trash who took over someone else's country and now think they can dictate who can and can't come here? Here here!

didn't muslims take over a lot of other people's countries? and weren't they very upset when the crusaders tried to take a bit of it back?

Bertram wrote on Oct 18^th, 2012 at 9:41pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 18th, 2012 at 9:19pm: Which people? The white trash who took over someone else's country and now think they can dictate who can and can't come here? Here here! didn't muslims take over a lot of other people's countries? and weren't they very upset when the crusaders tried to take a bit of it back?

Those darned, warmongering crusaders !!!





"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98


"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11


"..Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess:..."
Koran 4.22-24

"those whom your right hands possess" = = female captives, of war.




ISLAM has always been at war with Christians, because Christians are "....those who reject Faith."

Seizing the property and persons of non-moslems, and taking captive [enslaving] non-moslem women has always been 'lawful' to moslems.

Christian European states were 'upset' [too], coz Christian pilgrims going to Jerusalem were frequently being abducted, raped, and murdered, by the righteous moslem overlords of the Levant.

it is in their violent book to be the aggressors

Bertram wrote on Oct 18^th, 2012 at 9:41pm:

didn't muslims take over a lot of other people's countries? and weren't they very upset when the crusaders tried to take a bit of it back?

Who told you this fairytale? Muslims opened lands up to the honour of Islam. There's a reason the Islamic Caliphate was the only civilisation ever to take hold in Afghanistan (the devourer of empires), because the people themselves adopted Islam fully into their lives.

The Crusaders were northern Europeans... they weren't taking anything back, as they never had it to begin with. Hence the reason their little escapade in the Middle East didn't even last significantly beyond a century.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 18^th, 2012 at 10:17pm:

it is in their violent book to be the aggressors

Right...

Qur'an: "Allah loveth not aggressors"
Bible: "Jehovah is a man of war"

Ever consider seeing a therapist about these delusions of yours?

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 18^th, 2012 at 9:19pm:

Which people? The white trash who took over someone else's country and now think they can dictate who can and can't come here? Here here!

It's funny how you call them white trash but take advantage of every modern advancement they gave us.
So, help me here understand, why would you use and take advantage of something from people you hate? What's the thought processes behind this?

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 18^th, 2012 at 10:44pm:

Bertram wrote on Oct 18th, 2012 at 9:41pm: didn't muslims take over a lot of other people's countries? and weren't they very upset when the crusaders tried to take a bit of it back? Who told you this fairytale? Muslims opened lands up to the honour of Islam. There's a reason the Islamic Caliphate was the only civilisation ever to take hold in Afghanistan (the devourer of empires), because the people themselves adopted Islam fully into their lives. The Crusaders were northern Europeans... they weren't taking anything back, as they never had it to begin with. Hence the reason their little escapade in the Middle East didn't even last significantly beyond a century.

The 'honour' of ISLAM, Abu ???

LOL


"Say to the desert Arabs who lagged behind: "Ye shall be summoned (to fight) against a people given to vehement war: then shall ye fight, or they shall submit. Then if ye show obedience, Allah will grant you a goodly reward, but if ye turn back as ye did before, He will punish you with a grievous Penalty." "
Koran 48.16



Hmmmm, a goodly reward, eh ?



Jihad [fighting in Allah's cause], is obligatory for every devout [i.e. 'real'] moslem.

Abu, how are you fulfilling YOUR obligation to Allah ?

Got any Jihad 'operations' planned for here in Australia ?





p.s.

If Jihad is principally a 'spiritual' struggle, of spiritual self improvement,
.....then how come the blind and the lame are exempt from the spiritual struggle of self improvement ???



"No blame is there on the blind, nor is there blame on the lame, nor on one ill: But he that obeys Allah and his Messenger,- (Allah) will admit him to Gardens beneath which rivers flow; and he who turns back, (Allah) will punish him with a grievous Penalty. "
Koran 48.17

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 18^th, 2012 at 10:47pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 18th, 2012 at 10:17pm: it is in their violent book to be the aggressors Right... Qur'an: "Allah loveth not aggressors" Bible: "Jehovah is a man of war" Ever consider seeing a therapist about these delusions of yours?

"Allah loveth not aggressors" ?

Abu, are you quoting one of those abrogated [Meccan] Koran verses ???

abrogated = = superseded

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Oct 18^th, 2012 at 10:53pm:

It's funny how you call them white trash but take advantage of every modern advancement they gave us. So, help me here understand, why would you use and take advantage of something from people you hate? What's the thought processes behind this?

Since when did one have to like the inventor of something to use it?

Muslims invented plenty of things you use, does that mean you must like them?

Nazis & Soviets invented plenty of stuff too, does that mean you love Nazis & Soviets because you use those things?

Honestly, I can't believe a sane rational human would put their name to this kind of idiocy.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 19^th, 2012 at 6:05am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Oct 18th, 2012 at 10:53pm: It's funny how you call them white trash but take advantage of every modern advancement they gave us. So, help me here understand, why would you use and take advantage of something from people you hate? What's the thought processes behind this? Since when did one have to like the inventor of something to use it? Muslims invented plenty of things you use, does that mean you must like them? Nazis & Soviets invented plenty of stuff too, does that mean you love Nazis & Soviets because you use those things? Honestly, I can't believe a sane rational human would put their name to this kind of idiocy.

It's called being thankful rather than full of rancour.
You must go through an awful lot of cognitive dissonance.

On another note, how come you don't abide by the rules of the forum that you set up? You've been doing a lot of abuse lately.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 18^th, 2012 at 10:44pm:

Bertram wrote on Oct 18th, 2012 at 9:41pm: didn't muslims take over a lot of other people's countries? and weren't they very upset when the crusaders tried to take a bit of it back? Muslims opened lands up to the honour of Islam.

with the persuasive force of the sword. still, everywhere otside arabia it took muslims hundreds of years to become the majority, as distict from the rulers, showing that people didn't take to islam as rapidly as you would like us to believe.  as non-muslim subjects were paying extra tax, conversion to islam was actively discouraged at times in places like egypt.

Hi Abu,

How do you reconcile these two quotes of yours?


Quote:

I'm a Muslim man and have no problem speaking English nor a poor education nor a bad attitude towards Australian society.

Quote:

The white trash who took over someone else's country and now think they can dictate who can and can't come here?

There's that cognitive dissonance I mentioned.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 18^th, 2012 at 10:47pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Oct 18th, 2012 at 10:17pm: it is in their violent book to be the aggressors Right... Bible: "Jehovah is a man of war"

Absolutely !


Deuteronomy 32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
40  For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
41  If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.
42  I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.
43  Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.


I know that you believe the first part Abu.

Its just the identity of "his people", that you have gone askew in your thinking/reasoning, and are mistaken, imo.



We both believe that Judgement day is coming, Abu.

We just differ, on who the wicked will be, on that day.





AND, Allah, and the God of the OT, are not the same person, entity - - no matter how much moslems may want them to be the same entity.



Allah, and the God of Israel, are not the same god or, person.

Google;
a different god allah

Google;
allah another god

Yadda wrote on Oct 18^th, 2012 at 11:07pm:

"Allah loveth not aggressors" ? Abu, are you quoting one of those abrogated [Meccan] Koran verses ??? abrogated = = superseded

Abrogation is for rules/laws, this is not a rule nor a law, it is a statement by the almighty Creator about what he dislikes. Compared to your book where your deity (I agree your polytheistic man-god is not the same as the one true God we believe in) claims to be a "man of war".

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Oct 19^th, 2012 at 9:32am:

It's called being thankful rather than full of rancour. You must go through an awful lot of cognitive dissonance.

So you're thankful to all the Babylonians, Egyptians, Indians, Chinese, Persians, Mayans, Muslims, Nazis, Soviets etc. who've contributed so much to our modern world? And it's on this basis you permit yourself to use the inventions they've gifted us with? You agree with every single aspect of their cultures and civilisations?

Does anyone really give a damn where an invention comes from when they use it? Do you honestly believe this is a cognitive process people engage in before they decide whether or not to employ a certain technology?

Do you think people actually refrain from using certain technologies, based purely on their dislike for certain aspects of the cultures of those who invented them?

Ancient South Americans who invented the number 0 (the basis of the binary system, a pre-requisite for all computing technology), and they used to sacrifice children on stone altars. So if we follow your 'logic' (and I use the term extremely loosely), then you must agree with sacrificing children on stone altars, and that's why you permit yourself to use a computer... right?

Is your hatred of Islam so entrenched, that it's pressing against a nerve and impeding your basic reasoning abilities?


Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Oct 19^th, 2012 at 9:41am:

Hi Abu, How do you reconcile these two quotes of yours?

No contradiction at all. Unless you believe Australian society consists purely of white trash? My experience tells me otherwise. White trash are a small, but sadly, vocal portion of Australian society. Most Aussies are people like me (prior to embracing Islam), just easy going, keep-to-yourself, hurt nobody, give everyone a fair go people.

This can be witnessed by the so called "white Aussie" demonstration against Islam in Melbourne recently, where all of 12 people turned up.  ;D

Bertram wrote on Oct 19^th, 2012 at 9:41am:

with the persuasive force of the sword. still, everywhere otside arabia it took muslims hundreds of years to become the majority

This is a contradiction. The fact people slowly embraced Islam over hundreds of years, shows Islam did not spread by the sword. People embraced when they saw its practical implementation over many generations.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 20^th, 2012 at 9:11am:

Bertram wrote on Oct 19th, 2012 at 9:41am: with the persuasive force of the sword. still, everywhere otside arabia it took muslims hundreds of years to become the majority This is a contradiction. The fact people slowly embraced Islam over hundreds of years, shows Islam did not spread by the sword. People embraced when they saw its practical implementation over many generations.

Hi Abu,
You are so ignorant - you've never heard of the Ottoman empire.
Islam was spread by the sword -
believe in Allah or be slain.

Quote:

abu wrote So you're thankful to all the Babylonians, Egyptians, Indians, Chinese, Persians, Mayans, Muslims, Nazis, Soviets etc. who've contributed so much to our modern world? And it's on this basis you permit yourself to use the inventions they've gifted us with? You agree with every single aspect of their cultures and civilisations? Does anyone really give a damn where an invention comes from when they use it? Do you honestly believe this is a cognitive process people engage in before they decide whether or not to employ a certain technology? Do you think people actually refrain from using certain technologies, based purely on their dislike for certain aspects of the cultures of those who invented them? Ancient South Americans who invented the number 0 (the basis of the binary system, a pre-requisite for all computing technology), and they used to sacrifice children on stone altars. So if we follow your 'logic' (and I use the term extremely loosely), then you must agree with sacrificing children on stone altars, and that's why you permit yourself to use a computer... right? Is your hatred of Islam so entrenched, that it's pressing against a nerve and impeding your basic reasoning abilities?

Actually, I am fascinated by other civilizations that have contributed to knowledge and technology. My "hatred of Islam" stems from their idiotic devotion to a single book, which retards the mind and allows for no advancements in the arts and sciences. Additionally, Islam's current hatred of Jews and the West is so dominant in their thought, that it stifles their ability to enter the modern world. Hatred and submission is more important to them than any advancement at all.

Most people "don't give a sh*t" where their comforts and gadgets come from, I'll admit that, yet most people don't hate the civilization where they came from either. But you're the exception here in regards to Western inventions.
I think it's quite telling that you had to go back thousands of years to try and dodge the central point I was trying to make. We live a life of comfort and ease in the West, thanks to many of their inventions of the past 300 years or so. Yet to totally reject this culture that has given us this life, as you have, and still take full advantage of it, reveals, what I would call, a strange confliction within the mind.
Take away all the comforts you take for granted, and I'll bet you would be screaming for them back within a few weeks. "I want my internet back, I want my microwave back, I want my car back."





Quote:

abu wrote No contradiction at all. Unless you believe Australian society consists purely of white trash? My experience tells me otherwise. White trash are a small, but sadly, vocal portion of Australian society. Most Aussies are people like me (prior to embracing Islam), just easy going, keep-to-yourself, hurt nobody, give everyone a fair go people. This can be witnessed by the so called "white Aussie" demonstration against Islam in Melbourne recently, where all of 12 people turned up.  ;D

But it was the initial British settlers that you called "white trash." And this "white trash" has given you almost every comfort and gadget you take for granted.

To be honest, I don't think you really hate the West and all it's done for you, I think your rebellion is just a "cool" and "trendy" act. Something that gives you an "identity" or "meaning" that sticks out from the ordinary.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 20^th, 2012 at 9:11am:

Bertram wrote on Oct 19th, 2012 at 9:41am: with the persuasive force of the sword. still, everywhere otside arabia it took muslims hundreds of years to become the majority This is a contradiction. The fact people slowly embraced Islam over hundreds of years, shows Islam did not spread by the sword. People embraced when they saw its practical implementation over many generations.

it wasn't a contradiction to the umayyads. they discouraged conversion to protect the privileged position of arabs and to maintain revenue - the majority subject population had to pay extra tax.

people converted after generations of arab rule undermining their religious practices and to avoid the dhimmi tax and other economic disadvantages and due to intermarriage.

Bertram wrote on Oct 20^th, 2012 at 5:20pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 20th, 2012 at 9:11am: Bertram wrote on Oct 19th, 2012 at 9:41am: with the persuasive force of the sword. still, everywhere otside arabia it took muslims hundreds of years to become the majority This is a contradiction. The fact people slowly embraced Islam over hundreds of years, shows Islam did not spread by the sword. People embraced when they saw its practical implementation over many generations. it wasn't a contradiction to the umayyads. they discouraged conversion to protect the privileged position of arabs and to maintain revenue - the majority subject population had to pay extra tax. people converted after generations of arab rule undermining their religious practices and to avoid the dhimmi tax and other economic disadvantages and due to intermarriage.

That's right - if you said you were a Muslim & yelled out Allah Akbar a few times
you paid less tax - a good inducement. ;D

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 20^th, 2012 at 9:11am:

Islam did not spread by the sword. People embraced when they saw its practical implementation over many generations.

http://quran.com/9/5

How dare these terrorists not kill millions of innocent people like we do.

Yeh their only crime seems to be they don't have enough money to buy real extermination devices like the West does.

Qassam rockets & comandeered jetliners are barbaric, unlike drones and phosphorus.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 21^st, 2012 at 11:28am:

Yeh their only crime seems to be they don't have enough money to buy real extermination devices like the West does. Qassam rockets & comandeered jetliners are barbaric, unlike drones and phosphorus.

It then becomes obvious that its not the ACTS they commit that people care about.
Its the acts THEY commit.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 21^st, 2012 at 11:28am:

Yeh their only crime seems to be they don't have enough money to buy real extermination devices like the West does. Qassam rockets & comandeered jetliners are barbaric, unlike drones and phosphorus.

So why dont they have enough money Abu, could Islamic ideology be holding them back, if the women dont work does that mean half your workforce is idle?


Quote:

The combined annual GDP of 57 muslim majority countries remains under 2 trillion,The USA by herself produces goods and services worth 10.4 trillion,China 5.7 trillion,Japan 3.7 trillion,and Germany 2.1 trillion,Even India's GDP is estimated over 3 trillion. Oil rich Saudi Arabia,UAE ,Kuwait and Qatar collectively produce goods and services (mostly oil) worth 430 billion,The Netherlands alone has a higher annual GDP while Buddhist Thailand produces goods and services worth 429 billion. Muslims are 22% of the worlds population and produce less than 5% of global GDP. 57 muslim majority countries have an average of 10 universities each for a total of less than 600 universities for 1.4 billion people. India has 8,407 universities and the USA has 5,758. Fact: Of the 1.4 billion muslims ,800 million are illiterate , 6 out of 10 muslims cannot read. Source-http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2012/10/20/islamabad-freelance-columnist-800-million-muslims-out-of-1-4-billion-are-illiterate

So why is the GDP of 57 muslim majority countries combined less than the GDP of say Germany?

Muslim majority countries are poor because Islamic ideology holds them back.

The muslim world sure is white man's burden. We even feed them. Many muslim countries would  be in trouble if it wasn't for our and other countries livestock exports. They are even too lazy to properly feed themselves. They are always motivated enough to get in the streets a smash things up. I just want to know why the our past and present idiot governments brought these destroyers here.

Big Dave wrote on Oct 21^st, 2012 at 2:32pm:

The muslim world sure is white man's burden. We even feed them. Many muslim countries would  be in trouble if it wasn't for our and other countries livestock exports. They are even too lazy to properly feed themselves. They are always motivated enough to get in the streets a smash things up. I just want to know why the our past and present idiot governments brought these destroyers here.

You lack proper knowledge on the subject, which explains your ignorant opinions.

Yes we do give aid but we take much more in resources from them, giving aid is just an expense to make the pillaging look justified.

You forget that we are enforcing a financial system in their countries, you can stop this but then our economy will collapse because it depends on exploiting them.

You do realise that Australia imports a lot of its food don't you?

They simply are not to lazy to feed themselves, their economic situation has nothing to do with laziness, if it did Australia would be 3rd world.

Quite confusing, your talking about less the 1% of the Muslim population in Australia and using it to label the other 99.whatever percent. Using your logic because some Australians riot we are all motivated to go and smash things up..

Learn to learn before you start making ignorant comments.

The muslim world should say thank you . The clothes are from other places, the medicine is from other places, the food is from other places. Does it make anything? Do people work. If it wasn't for the rest of the world the middle east would probably starve.

Big Dave wrote on Oct 21^st, 2012 at 2:47pm:

The muslim world should say thank you . The clothes are from other places, the medicine is from other places, the food is from other places. Does it make anything? Do people work. If it wasn't for the rest of the world the middle east would probably starve.

And how are we able to provide those things?
Learn that and your ignorance will cease.

The west doesn't rip everything out of the muslim world. Most natural resourses come from other places. They only produce 20% of the worlds oil. You don't know what you are talking about.

Big Dave wrote on Oct 21^st, 2012 at 2:49pm:

The west doesn't rip everything out of the muslim world. Most natural resourses come from other places. They only produce 20% of the worlds oil. You don't know what you are talking about.

20% of the worlds oil is enough to fix most economic issues in the middle east if we allowed them to control it.
That is still a very small part of it all tho.

And how are we able to provide those things?

Because we trade with and have manufacturing industries.

bobbythefap1 wrote on Oct 21^st, 2012 at 2:51pm:

Big Dave wrote on Oct 21st, 2012 at 2:49pm: The west doesn't rip everything out of the muslim world. Most natural resourses come from other places. They only produce 20% of the worlds oil. You don't know what you are talking about. 20% of the worlds oil is enough to fix most economic issues in the middle east if we allowed them to control it. That is still a very small part of it all tho.

Ask the countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran why their oil isn't helping the middle east. They control their oil. Nobody is stealing their oil.

Big Dave wrote on Oct 21^st, 2012 at 2:53pm:

And how are we able to provide those things? Because we trade with and have manufacturing industries.

If every country on earth had equal economic freedom and opportunity then the west would probably be 3rd world.

Our current economic situation is only possible because the financial system forces countries into poverty and takes advantage of them, the result of this is billions living in poverty and some of the things you listed earlier.

Their suffering is instrumental in our success.

Big Dave wrote on Oct 21^st, 2012 at 2:56pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Oct 21st, 2012 at 2:51pm: Big Dave wrote on Oct 21st, 2012 at 2:49pm: The west doesn't rip everything out of the muslim world. Most natural resourses come from other places. They only produce 20% of the worlds oil. You don't know what you are talking about. 20% of the worlds oil is enough to fix most economic issues in the middle east if we allowed them to control it. That is still a very small part of it all tho. Ask the countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran why their oil isn't helping the middle east. They control their oil. Nobody is stealing their oil.

Saudi Arabia is a US puppet.
Iran was doing very well for itself and improving quality of life for its people hugely, now we have imposed sanctions (an act of war) and the result is poverty again and children starving to death.
The same thing happened in Libya, Gaddaffi used oil wealth to make Libya better then some western countries and then we phuked him because he was trying to help the rest of Africa.
Once again, the things you complain about are not a matter of choice for these people or us. If we let them support themselves they can become competition and we don't like that because our success is only due to their suffering.

That's wrong. The west and eastern asia are rich because they build things. They believe in education and technological advancement. Religion is something for sunday and it doesn't get in the way of our working week. That's it. They work harder.

Big Dave wrote on Oct 21^st, 2012 at 3:01pm:

That's wrong. The west and eastern asia are rich because they build things. They believe in education and technological advancement. Religion is something for sunday and it doesn't get in the way of our working week. That's it. They work harder.

Eastern Asia is allowed some economic freedoms because they are a formidable military force.

Education and technology have nothing to do with it - see libya.

They do not work harder, they have the freedom to work.

bobbythefap1 wrote on Oct 21^st, 2012 at 2:59pm:

Big Dave wrote on Oct 21st, 2012 at 2:56pm: bobbythefap1 wrote on Oct 21st, 2012 at 2:51pm: Big Dave wrote on Oct 21st, 2012 at 2:49pm: The west doesn't rip everything out of the muslim world. Most natural resourses come from other places. They only produce 20% of the worlds oil. You don't know what you are talking about. 20% of the worlds oil is enough to fix most economic issues in the middle east if we allowed them to control it. That is still a very small part of it all tho. Ask the countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran why their oil isn't helping the middle east. They control their oil. Nobody is stealing their oil. Saudi Arabia is a US puppet. Iran was doing very well for itself and improving quality of life for its people hugely, now we have imposed sanctions (an act of war) and the result is poverty again and children starving to death. The same thing happened in Libya, Gaddaffi used oil wealth to make Libya better then some western countries and then we phuked him because he was trying to help the rest of Africa. Once again, the things you complain about are not a matter of choice for these people or us. If we let them support themselves they can become competition and we don't like that because our success is only due to their suffering.

Iran and Iraq hold all the oil and all they manage was war with one another, their neighbours and other countries. The squandered . Iran is a poo hole with big problems. If America doesn't want to deal with them then they don't have to. I wouldn't deal with my enemy.

Big Dave wrote on Oct 21^st, 2012 at 3:05pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Oct 21st, 2012 at 2:59pm: Big Dave wrote on Oct 21st, 2012 at 2:56pm: bobbythefap1 wrote on Oct 21st, 2012 at 2:51pm: Big Dave wrote on Oct 21st, 2012 at 2:49pm: The west doesn't rip everything out of the muslim world. Most natural resourses come from other places. They only produce 20% of the worlds oil. You don't know what you are talking about. 20% of the worlds oil is enough to fix most economic issues in the middle east if we allowed them to control it. That is still a very small part of it all tho. Ask the countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran why their oil isn't helping the middle east. They control their oil. Nobody is stealing their oil. Saudi Arabia is a US puppet. Iran was doing very well for itself and improving quality of life for its people hugely, now we have imposed sanctions (an act of war) and the result is poverty again and children starving to death. The same thing happened in Libya, Gaddaffi used oil wealth to make Libya better then some western countries and then we phuked him because he was trying to help the rest of Africa. Once again, the things you complain about are not a matter of choice for these people or us. If we let them support themselves they can become competition and we don't like that because our success is only due to their suffering. Iran and Iraq hold all the oil and all they manage was war with one another, their neighbours and other countries. The squandered . Iran is a poo hole with big problems. If America doesn't want to deal with them then they don't have to. I wouldn't deal with my enemy.

Right but they didn't have the freedom to control that oil.
Their war was also ignited by the US, this is well documented and accepted.

I bet you don't know the first thing about Iran. The US is dealing with them tho because they enforce their financial system on them. Iran has done nothing to suggest it is an enemy and you will not be able to prove otherwise.

The US is the blame for everything in your eyes. Why don't you go and move over there and help thm if you feel so strongly. You are not helping them here in your lovely western house, eatiing lovely western food, living off your western education, tapping away on your lovely western computer. etc etc etc etc.

Big Dave wrote on Oct 21^st, 2012 at 3:11pm:

The US is the blame for everything in your eyes. Why don't you go and move over there and help thm if you feel so strongly. You are not helping them here in your lovely western house, eatiing lovely western food, living off your western education, tapping away on your lovely western computer. etc etc etc etc.

Name something in this world that doesn't come back to economics.
The US is the country that enforces these countries economic systems.
You can't avoid that fact.

I see you are already resorting to the typical no legitimate argument responses.. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

Go to your lovely western fridge and grab a beer and calm down. Sit on your couch and flick on the teli and have a rest and think about have you are a part of the system that you don't like.

Big Dave wrote on Oct 21^st, 2012 at 3:15pm:

Go to your lovely western fridge and grab a beer and calm down. Sit on your couch and flick on the teli and have a rest and think about have you are a part of the system that you don't like.

Thanks for joining the ranks of another person who can't comprehend reality.

Go and take a drive in your good old western gas guzzler that sucks on good old middle eastern petroleum then.

Big Dave wrote on Oct 21^st, 2012 at 3:20pm:

Go and take a drive in your good old western gas guzzler that sucks on good old middle eastern petroleum then.

Isn't that just proving what I am saying?

Baronvonrort wrote on Oct 21^st, 2012 at 1:50pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 21st, 2012 at 11:28am: Yeh their only crime seems to be they don't have enough money to buy real extermination devices like the West does. Qassam rockets & comandeered jetliners are barbaric, unlike drones and phosphorus. So why dont they have enough money Abu, could Islamic ideology be holding them back, if the women dont work does that mean half your workforce is idle? Quote: The combined annual GDP of 57 muslim majority countries remains under 2 trillion,The USA by herself produces goods and services worth 10.4 trillion,China 5.7 trillion,Japan 3.7 trillion,and Germany 2.1 trillion,Even India's GDP is estimated over 3 trillion. Oil rich Saudi Arabia,UAE ,Kuwait and Qatar collectively produce goods and services (mostly oil) worth 430 billion,The Netherlands alone has a higher annual GDP while Buddhist Thailand produces goods and services worth 429 billion. Muslims are 22% of the worlds population and produce less than 5% of global GDP. 57 muslim majority countries have an average of 10 universities each for a total of less than 600 universities for 1.4 billion people. India has 8,407 universities and the USA has 5,758. Fact: Of the 1.4 billion muslims ,800 million are illiterate , 6 out of 10 muslims cannot read. Source-http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2012/10/20/islamabad-freelance-columnist-800-million-muslims-out-of-1-4-billion-are-illiterate So why is the GDP of 57 muslim majority countries combined less than the GDP of say Germany? Muslim majority countries are poor because Islamic ideology holds them back.

Bump for Abu

baron,

What precisely is there for me to respond to?

None of the countries you list implement Islamic ideology, they are all Western client states that were formed from Sykes-Picot, and which operate according to Western-style politicial institutions. None of them implements the Khilafah model of Islamic governance, which is the system based on Islamic ideology, so what has their economic malaise got to do with Islamic ideology? I didn't bother answering your post, because it's based on extremely faulty premises.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2012 at 6:49pm:

baron, What precisely is there for me to respond to? None of the countries you list implement Islamic ideology, they are all Western client states that were formed from Sykes-Picot, and which operate according to Western-style politicial institutions. None of them implements the Khilafah model of Islamic governance, which is the system based on Islamic ideology, so what has their economic malaise got to do with Islamic ideology? I didn't bother answering your post, because it's based on extremely faulty premises.

Do you really think implementing Islamic ideology into the political system will change how poor these muslim majority countries are?

What happened to the last Caliphate, did Ataturk dismatle the Islamic empire?

What about Somalia, do Al Shaabab and Boko Haram implement Islam properly there?

Quote:

Does anyone really give a damn where an invention comes from when they use it? Do you honestly believe this is a cognitive process people engage in before they decide whether or not to employ a certain technology?

Some people do Abu.


Quote:

No contradiction at all. Unless you believe Australian society consists purely of white trash? My experience tells me otherwise. White trash are a small, but sadly, vocal portion of Australian society. Most Aussies are people like me (prior to embracing Islam), just easy going, keep-to-yourself, hurt nobody, give everyone a fair go people.

So how would you describe yourself now?


Quote:

This is a contradiction. The fact people slowly embraced Islam over hundreds of years, shows Islam did not spread by the sword.

No it doesn't Abu.


Quote:

people converted after generations of arab rule undermining their religious practices and to avoid the dhimmi tax and other economic disadvantages and due to intermarriage.

And of course they were then faced with the death penalty for apostasy.


Quote:

You do realise that Australia imports a lot of its food don't you?

WA, we are a net food exporter.


Quote:

Quite confusing, your talking about less the 1% of the Muslim population in Australia and using it to label the other 99.whatever percent. Using your logic because some Australians riot we are all motivated to go and smash things up..

Muslims riot everywhere, not just in Australia. Haven't you noticed yet?


Quote:

If every country on earth had equal economic freedom and opportunity then the west would probably be 3rd world.

WA, do you realise that what Muslims like Abu want most of all is to deny freedom and opportunity to all? This is not our fault. It is theirs. That is why the middle east is such a hole.


Quote:

Name something in this world that doesn't come back to economics.

You have no idea about economics WA. It's like you learnt economics from a socialist alliance brochure, or Abu's Islamic propaganda.


Quote:

None of the countries you list implement Islamic ideology, they are all Western client states that were formed from Sykes-Picot, and which operate according to Western-style politicial institutions. None of them implements the Khilafah model of Islamic governance, which is the system based on Islamic ideology, so what has their economic malaise got to do with Islamic ideology? I didn't bother answering your post, because it's based on extremely faulty premises.

So that's why they bomb each other's mosques and crap on their own plate all the time? Because America won't let them form another opressive empire?

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 22^nd, 2012 at 6:49pm:

baron, What precisely is there for me to respond to? None of the countries you list implement Islamic ideology, they are all Western client states that were formed from Sykes-Picot, and which operate according to Western-style politicial institutions. None of them implements the Khilafah model of Islamic governance, which is the system based on Islamic ideology, so what has their economic malaise got to do with Islamic ideology? I didn't bother answering your post, because it's based on extremely faulty premises.

But Abu, isn't the Jihad supposed to be a PERSONAL, an individual struggle, for self improvement ???

And in all of those places, do you mean to say, that the moslem Jihad is failing ???
/sarc off

......because moslems are not trying hard enough, and are failing in their 'quest', to be virtuous, and good 'moslems' ???

freediver wrote on Oct 28^th, 2012 at 9:45pm:

Quote: Quite confusing, your talking about less the 1% of the Muslim population in Australia and using it to label the other 99.whatever percent. Using your logic because some Australians riot we are all motivated to go and smash things up.. Muslims riot everywhere, not just in Australia. Haven't you noticed yet?

Yadda has noticed.

Let me tell the world,   .........WAKE UP WORLD.               :D

You are living in la la land.


Dictionary;
la-la land = =
1 Los Angeles or Hollywood, especially with regard to the film and television industry.
2 a dreamworld.






+++



CLOSER TO REALITY, THAN YOU MIGHT IMAGINE [imo    ;)   ].........       ;D       ;D       ;D


Quote:

RIVER I know you have questions. MAL That would be why I just asked them. RIVER But there isn't a lot of time, captain. I need you to trust me. MAL Am I dreaming? RIVER We all are.

Firefly - Objects in Space
Joss Whedon

Yadda wrote on Oct 28^th, 2012 at 11:00pm:

But Abu, isn't the Jihad supposed to be a PERSONAL, an individual struggle, for self improvement ??? And in all of those places, do you mean to say, that the moslem Jihad is failing ??? /sarc off

Whoever said Jihad is purely restricted to personal struggle? Jihad as a concept is a struggle on any level. Nothing in Islam restricts it to personal struggle, although of course it does encompass that.

The muslims say it's personal when they choose as not to alarm people. I thought jihad means the activity of making everything and everybody on earth a muslim.

So 9/11 was Jihad?

Jihad? Maybe. They did try to cripple America by hitting their  economic hub and leadership ( Pentagon). When you want to be number one you have to take out the big guy. Revenge? Maybe. It's funny because muslims have killed more muslims than anybody. Look at the Iran/Iraq War.

I believe the 9/11 terrorists were a bunch of losers in life who wanted to take their personal failings out on something.

Makes me wonder about the sydney street protests though. How much of that was political and not anthing to do do with that movie at all. What do you reckon about that Freediver?

Big Dave wrote on Oct 29^th, 2012 at 2:07pm:

Makes me wonder about the sydney street protests though. How much of that was political and not anthing to do do with that movie at all. What do you reckon about that Freediver?

Of course it was political, that doesn't make them hypocrites because it was the mainstream media that was saying it was all about the movie.
Wouldn't you want to do something if millions of your people were being killed, starved and abused?

Sydney protests-They do the same things in the middle east. They get the biggest crowd they can get. Then they make as much noise as they can and then smash a few things. What that does is this- some weak do-gooder  like western apologist says "oh poor things we better give them more power" OR "we better give them more power so they don't smash more things up". It's a bullying tactic. Then before you know it they are blocking the middle of Lakemba for their religious activities because they own Lakemba and it aint australia anymore. When their population  get higher the crowds will be bigger, the do-gooders weaker and before you know it they have their own state. ETC ETC ETC. That's why our leaders should be bringing the right type of people out here, but it's too late now. Welcome to our future.

Big Dave wrote on Oct 29^th, 2012 at 4:23pm:

Sydney protests-They do the same things in the middle east. They get the biggest crowd they can get. Then they make as much noise as they can and then smash a few things. What that does is this- some weak do-gooder  like western apologist says "oh poor things we better give them more power" OR "we better give them more power so they don't smash more things up". It's a bullying tactic. Then before you know it they are blocking the middle of Lakemba for their religious activities because they own Lakemba and it aint australia anymore. When their population  get higher the crowds will be bigger, the do-gooders weaker and before you know it they have their own state. ETC ETC ETC. That's why our leaders should be bringing the right type of people out here, but it's too late now. Welcome to our future.

When have I ever said we should give them more power?
You do realise that westerns do the same thing, except we riot over things like sport  ::)

Reacting to a bully is not bullying.

Your view of reality is very skewed, I suggest you get off the mainstream media cause its clearly making you very paranoid.

bobbythefap1 wrote on Oct 29^th, 2012 at 5:23pm:

Big Dave wrote on Oct 29th, 2012 at 4:23pm: Sydney protests-They do the same things in the middle east. They get the biggest crowd they can get. Then they make as much noise as they can and then smash a few things. What that does is this- some weak do-gooder  like western apologist says "oh poor things we better give them more power" OR "we better give them more power so they don't smash more things up". It's a bullying tactic. Then before you know it they are blocking the middle of Lakemba for their religious activities because they own Lakemba and it aint australia anymore. When their population  get higher the crowds will be bigger, the do-gooders weaker and before you know it they have their own state. ETC ETC ETC. That's why our leaders should be bringing the right type of people out here, but it's too late now. Welcome to our future. When have I ever said we should give them more power? You do realise that westerns do the same thing, except we riot over things like sport  ::) Reacting to a bully is not bullying. Your view of reality is very skewed, I suggest you get off the mainstream media cause its clearly making you very paranoid.

I suggerst you grow a brain.

Big Dave wrote on Oct 29^th, 2012 at 5:25pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Oct 29th, 2012 at 5:23pm: Big Dave wrote on Oct 29th, 2012 at 4:23pm: Sydney protests-They do the same things in the middle east. They get the biggest crowd they can get. Then they make as much noise as they can and then smash a few things. What that does is this- some weak do-gooder  like western apologist says "oh poor things we better give them more power" OR "we better give them more power so they don't smash more things up". It's a bullying tactic. Then before you know it they are blocking the middle of Lakemba for their religious activities because they own Lakemba and it aint australia anymore. When their population  get higher the crowds will be bigger, the do-gooders weaker and before you know it they have their own state. ETC ETC ETC. That's why our leaders should be bringing the right type of people out here, but it's too late now. Welcome to our future. When have I ever said we should give them more power? You do realise that westerns do the same thing, except we riot over things like sport  ::) Reacting to a bully is not bullying. Your view of reality is very skewed, I suggest you get off the mainstream media cause its clearly making you very paranoid. I suggerst you grow a brain.

I doubt you could be a fair judge of that considering your misquoting me.

Offer to a thirsty Muslim a glass of water and he will try and kill you for the whole jug.

They have always been this way.
They leave their country come to your Christian one and then they demand it should be more Islamic.

They demand your women come to the Arab world and dress like Muslim women.
Then they come to your country and demand their women dress just as if they never left.

The difference between Australia and Israel?

I say this with respect to Aussies who I do like - but we do not buy their crap and they get it back from us with interest. We have more experience of them.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Oct 29^th, 2012 at 5:44pm:

Offer to a thirsty Muslim a glass of water and he will try and kill you for the whole jug. They have always been this way. They leave their country come to your Christian one and then they demand it should be more Islamic. They demand your women come to the Arab world and dress like Muslim women. Then they come to your country and demand their women dress just as if they never left. The difference between Australia and Israel? I say this with respect to Aussies who I do like - but we do not buy their crap and they get it back from us with interest. We have more experience of them.

Offer asylum to millions of Jews and they will kill thousands of your people, steal your land and lock you up in Nazi Ghettos for generations.

They have always been this way.
They get themselves kicked out of their countries and invade others, not demanding but killing for it to be Jewish.

They demand your women not be able to leave their ghettos.

The difference between Israel and Nazi Germany?

Rhetorical questions are better.

Coward.

Hey coward I have fought in the army, what have you done?

Avram Horowitz wrote on Oct 29^th, 2012 at 6:11pm:

Coward. Hey coward I have fought in the army, what have you done?

Posted something you cant legitimately respond to?

You know nothing about my country and region.
I fight for 3 years in the army, you have never even come there.

How do you know? Websites? Television?

So your questions can never be legitimate.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Oct 29^th, 2012 at 6:39pm:

You know nothing about my country and region. I fight for 3 years in the army, you have never even come there. How do you know? Websites? Television? So your questions can never be legitimate.

What exactly is it that I do not know? Having a different opinion to you does not make me wrong, especially considering there are many of your fellow countrymen who agree with me.

You are a hypocritical terrorist, not exactly the shinning star of legitimacy.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Oct 29^th, 2012 at 5:44pm:

Offer to a thirsty Muslim a glass of water and he will try and kill you for the whole jug. They have always been this way. They leave their country come to your Christian one and then they demand it should be more Islamic. They demand your women come to the Arab world and dress like Muslim women. Then they come to your country and demand their women dress just as if they never left. The difference between Australia and Israel? I say this with respect to Aussies who I do like - but we do not buy their crap and they get it back from us with interest. We have more experience of them.

We are learning not to buy their crap Avram. The australian police force smashed them in sydney when they had their rampage. The people who live around their communities don't like them. We are learning.

bobbythefap1 wrote on Oct 29^th, 2012 at 6:41pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Oct 29th, 2012 at 6:39pm: You know nothing about my country and region. I fight for 3 years in the army, you have never even come there. How do you know? Websites? Television? So your questions can never be legitimate. What exactly is it that I do not know? Having a different opinion to you does not make me wrong, especially considering there are many of your fellow countrymen who agree with me. You are a hypocritical terrorist, not exactly the shinning star of legitimacy.

Support your claim.

Name to me one act of terror I have committed.

I have stopped acts of terror.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Oct 29^th, 2012 at 6:51pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Oct 29th, 2012 at 6:41pm: Avram Horowitz wrote on Oct 29th, 2012 at 6:39pm: You know nothing about my country and region. I fight for 3 years in the army, you have never even come there. How do you know? Websites? Television? So your questions can never be legitimate. What exactly is it that I do not know? Having a different opinion to you does not make me wrong, especially considering there are many of your fellow countrymen who agree with me. You are a hypocritical terrorist, not exactly the shinning star of legitimacy. Support your claim. Name to me one act of terror I have committed. I have stopped acts of terror.

How is it that if I am so wrong you can only ever manage to respond to roughly 10% of what I say?

You have admitted fighting for a terrorist army that occupies another country and uses Nazi tactics, less broadly you have admitted to blowing up apartment buildings.

"I have stopped acts of terror"..I wonder if Nazi soldiers said the same thing when they stopped Jews defending themselves in the ghettos?

Big Dave wrote on Oct 29^th, 2012 at 2:07pm:

Makes me wonder about the sydney street protests though. How much of that was political and not anthing to do do with that movie at all. What do you reckon about that Freediver?

It was entirely political. Of course they weren't protesting just about the movie, it was merely a trigger, but for the countless attacks the West has committed against the Muslims.

What has banners about cutting heads off got to do with that?

Big Dave wrote on Oct 29^th, 2012 at 8:40pm:

What has banners about cutting heads off got to do with that?

No idea.

As has been pointed out time and again, the vast majority of protesters did NOT carry such banners, and probably did not agree with such banners either.

bobbythefap1 wrote on Oct 29^th, 2012 at 2:18pm:

Big Dave wrote on Oct 29th, 2012 at 2:07pm: Makes me wonder about the sydney street protests though. How much of that was political and not anthing to do do with that movie at all. What do you reckon about that Freediver? Of course it was political, that doesn't make them hypocrites because it was the mainstream media that was saying it was all about the movie. Wouldn't you want to do something if millions of your people were being killed, starved and abused?

If the protestors say they were protesting about the movie, I am happy to take their word for it. I am not one to put words into their mouths, even if it would make me feel all warm and fuzzy to believe they support freedom of speech.


Quote:

When have I ever said we should give them more power?

Every time you apologise for them and make excuses and lie about their intent you give them more power. They don't exactly have much to begin with, so I am sure they are grateful for your efforts.


Quote:

Offer asylum to millions of Jews and they will

Is that what it was? Funny how the history books report it as killing them. I guess that's more western propaganda.


Quote:

They get themselves kicked out of their countries and invade others, not demanding but killing for it to be Jewish.

Actually I think you will find that Jewish people integrate quite well, despite the religious differences. They are pretty much the opposite of Muslims.


Quote:

What exactly is it that I do not know? Having a different opinion to you does not make me wrong

Being wrong makes you wrong, over and over again.

Abu:


Quote:

It was entirely political. Of course they weren't protesting just about the movie, it was merely a trigger, but for the countless attacks the West has committed against the Muslims.

So that's why they carried signs calling for people who insult Muhammed to be beheaded? To protest about middle eastern geopolitics?


Quote:

As has been pointed out time and again, the vast majority of protesters did NOT carry such banners, and probably did not agree with such banners either.

Abu you are right that this claim has been made many times, but so far neither you nor the Muslim apologists have ever managed to justify the claim that the protestors disagreed with the banners they were marching behind. Does being a Muslim make people particularly stupid or something?

Quote:

If the protestors say they were protesting about the movie, I am happy to take their word for it. I am not one to put words into their mouths, even if it would make me feel all warm and fuzzy to believe they support freedom of speech.

Like all people in the world including anglos the majority of protesters were probably just following the crowd, the movie was a spark for protest but it was not the fuel that the spark lit.

Quote:

Every time you apologise for them and make excuses and lie about their intent you give them more power. They don't exactly have much to begin with, so I am sure they are grateful for your efforts.

I have never made excuses or lied, you are the one lying about the majority of Muslims because you paint them all with the same brush.
All I do is put myself, my country and my people in their position.
I find it hard to believe you have properly done that, I find it hard to believe that you would place the same restrictions and abuse on yourself or your fellow countrymen if we were in the same position as people in the Middle East.

Quote:

Is that what it was? Funny how the history books report it as killing them. I guess that's more western propaganda.

Link?
Palestine accepted millions of Jewish asylum seekers during and after ww2.
But its quite funny you make issue of that considering how you are happy for Australia to kill and ruin the lives of asylum seekers today.

Quote:

Actually I think you will find that Jewish people integrate quite well, despite the religious differences. They are pretty much the opposite of Muslims.

You are saying because a minority of Muslims do not integrate well the majority do not either. The reality is that a Jewish population is going to have that same minority just like any other peoples.

Terrorists??

LOL i dont think so.

We are protectors of families.
People who attack our homes and threaten our women and children.

---

Avram Horowitz wrote on Oct 30^th, 2012 at 8:32pm:

Terrorists?? LOL i dont think so. We are protectors of families. People who attack our homes and threaten our women and children.

Nazi

Avram Horowitz wrote on Oct 30^th, 2012 at 8:32pm:

Terrorists?? LOL i dont think so. We are protectors of families. People who attack our homes and threaten our women and children.

I like this photograph and is wonderful to post it here.
I am very proud.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Oct 31^st, 2012 at 5:33pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Oct 30th, 2012 at 8:32pm: Terrorists?? LOL i dont think so. We are protectors of families. People who attack our homes and threaten our women and children. I like this photograph and is wonderful to post it here. I am very proud.

I know I take my moral que of things to be proud of from terrorists.

You still can not support this comment.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Oct 31^st, 2012 at 6:36pm:

You still can not support this comment.

I can support it with 3 letters: IDF

D = Defense

Avram Horowitz wrote on Oct 31^st, 2012 at 7:13pm:

D = Defense

How can you defend occupied land?

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 29^th, 2012 at 9:38pm:

Big Dave wrote on Oct 29th, 2012 at 8:40pm: What has banners about cutting heads off got to do with that? No idea. As has been pointed out time and again, the vast majority of protesters did NOT carry such banners, and probably did not agree with such banners either.

What a load of rubbish.

Sharia law requires that anyone who insults the prophet dies, and the way Islam says to kill such people is beheading. So it is fair to say that the majority of people there who were muslims would have agreed with it. What they would not agree with is tipping the infidels off by having a stupid banner in English.

Yeah right no idea, you know exactly what idea. Any who insults the Prophet - kill him. Remember?

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 29^th, 2012 at 9:38pm:

Big Dave wrote on Oct 29th, 2012 at 8:40pm: What has banners about cutting heads off got to do with that? No idea. As has been pointed out time and again, the vast majority of protesters did NOT carry such banners, and probably did not agree with such banners either.

1/ The banners at moslems protests always agree with the tenets of ISLAM.

2/ Moslems, also agree with ALL of the tenets of ISLAM.

3/ That why moslems ARE moslems,
.....because they embrace and agree with ALL of the tenets of ISLAM.






"I'm a moslem. And you are not."



"Allah is my god, and Mohammed is his prophet."



THIS FOLLOWING, IS AN EXPLANATION OF THE 'LOGIC', THE 'MORALITY', WHICH ISLAM INCULCATES, INTO EVERY MOSLEM.....


Its simple, I'm a moslem. I am a righteous human being [because I'm a moslem, Koran 3.110], and you are not.

Its simple, I'm a moslem, and my god, Allah, says that if you don't want to be a moslem [if you reject our kind invitation to become a moslem], then i am at war with you,
....and, i can 'lawfully' kill you.

My hatred for you is a very moral, and it is a legitimate hatred, because you [wittingly, or unwittingly] are serving SATAN.

Allah, my god, directly says so.    Koran 4.74-76

You have actively aligned yourself with SATAN's cause, because you have rejected Allah's perfect religion.

Allah, my god, says so.

If you have rejected Allah's perfect religion, it is because you are one of the oppressors of mankind.

Allah, my god, says so.



"...And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of [i.e. for] those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?...Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan:.."
Koran 4.74-76

Calanen wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 6:55am:

What a load of rubbish. Sharia law requires that anyone who insults the prophet dies, and the way Islam says to kill such people is beheading. So it is fair to say that the majority of people there who were muslims would have agreed with it. What they would not agree with is tipping the infidels off by having a stupid banner in English. Yeah right no idea, you know exactly what idea. Any who insults the Prophet - kill him. Remember?

I didn't say anything about it not being shari'ah law. But Australia is not a domain that implements shari'ah law, therefore carrying such banners is pointless, and as Muslims we do not agree with calling for things that contradict the laws of the land.

Therefore most Muslims do not agree with these banners, simple.

You can call it rubbish all you like.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 5^th, 2012 at 10:13pm:

Calanen wrote on Nov 5th, 2012 at 6:55am: What a load of rubbish. Sharia law requires that anyone who insults the prophet dies, and the way Islam says to kill such people is beheading. So it is fair to say that the majority of people there who were muslims would have agreed with it. What they would not agree with is tipping the infidels off by having a stupid banner in English. Yeah right no idea, you know exactly what idea. Any who insults the Prophet - kill him. Remember? I didn't say anything about it not being shari'ah law. But Australia is not a domain that implements shari'ah law, therefore carrying such banners is pointless, and as Muslims we do not agree with calling for things that contradict the laws of the land. Therefore most Muslims do not agree with these banners, simple. You can call it rubbish all you like.

Blowing up people on schoolbuses full of women and children is obeying the laws?

You don't honestly believe occupied Palestine is your land and your laws??? You are a temporary nuisance to that land only, it's not your land, nor your laws. You are in THEIR land, YOU should be obeying THEIR laws.

You've got it all Abu. You hate America and the Jews, you believe in death by stoning, you call the people around you in daily life kafur, you want Sharia Law and you idolise Osama Bin Laden etc etc etc. I'M CALLING ASIO!!!!!! I'm just trying to work why you are on a public forum making Islam look worse. I don't even have to do anything because you do it for me.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 6^th, 2012 at 8:50am:

You don't honestly believe occupied Palestine is your land and your laws??? You are a temporary nuisance to that land only, it's not your land, nor your laws. You are in THEIR land, YOU should be obeying THEIR laws.

No you are the nuisance why won't you accept that they have took back what was taken from them. They have been there for three thousand years.. You banned them from the Temple Mount for a Thousand of them just because a doped out of his head human being claimed he flew there on a winged horse with the face of a human and tied the beast up to the wailing wall.

Give it up A_R one day Israel will be as big as it was in Herod's time Inshallah

Big Dave wrote on Nov 6^th, 2012 at 9:38am:

You've got it all Abu. You hate America and the Jews, you believe in death by stoning, you call the people around you in daily life kafur, you want Sharia Law and you idolise Osama Bin Laden etc etc etc. I'M CALLING ASIO!!!!!! I'm just trying to work why you are on a public forum making Islam look worse. I don't even have to do anything because you do it for me.

You'd be pretty brave calling ASIO, as all they'd see is you calling for the bombing of mosques. You'd wanna be keeping right out of their hair I'd say.

Adamant wrote on Nov 6^th, 2012 at 9:56am:

why won't you accept that they have took back what was taken from them.

In 1800 years time, do you think it'd be right for Aboriginals to boot Aussies out of their homes and into refugee camps?


Adamant wrote on Nov 6^th, 2012 at 9:56am:

They have been there for three thousand years..

Please read some history. They were there for about 1000 years, 2000 years ago. Not for 3000 years. Arabs are the ones who've been there for about 2500 years.


Adamant wrote on Nov 6^th, 2012 at 9:56am:

You banned them from the Temple Mount for a Thousand of them just because a doped out of his head human being claimed he flew there on a winged horse with the face of a human and tied the beast up to the wailing wall.

Actually it was Christians who did that. Muslims did agree with Christians to continue implementing it, as a condition of us taking over. But we ended up softening and letting them come back... real stupid move that was.

1. It is our country. We built it, we fought for it and we will never leave, ever.

2. It is we who offer peace and solution. We left Gaza alone because we became tired waiting for the Arabs to stop fighting each other to take it back. What happened? Look at Hamas and Fatah, fighting each other, kicking each other out - imagine how they would be if we allowed them East Jerusalem?

3. It is our land, our laws. You follow them or we will arrest you.

4. These terror scum deliberately slaughter women and children in suicide bombs.
There can be no defense for them.

So we do not leave. I do not leave. Czech Republic has nothing to do with me. I am born in Israel and Israel is my country.
Remember the Arabs can have peace or they can have war.

Because we can bring them both.
And remember too, with our military force we can show them hell on earth as you say.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 6^th, 2012 at 2:53pm:

Adamant wrote on Nov 6th, 2012 at 9:56am: They have been there for three thousand years.. Please read some history. They were there for about 1000 years, 2000 years ago. Not for 3000 years. Arabs are the ones who've been there for about 2500 years.

Andy Williams, a great, great, song!!!!               ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEYmomUuveU

squatter.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 6^th, 2012 at 2:50pm:

Big Dave wrote on Nov 6th, 2012 at 9:38am: You've got it all Abu. You hate America and the Jews, you believe in death by stoning, you call the people around you in daily life kafur, you want Sharia Law and you idolise Osama Bin Laden etc etc etc. I'M CALLING ASIO!!!!!! I'm just trying to work why you are on a public forum making Islam look worse. I don't even have to do anything because you do it for me. You'd be pretty brave calling ASIO, as all they'd see is you calling for the bombing of mosques. You'd wanna be keeping right out of their hair I'd say.

I don't have to ring ASIO because they already know who you are.

Big Dave wrote on Nov 6^th, 2012 at 4:22pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 6th, 2012 at 2:50pm: Big Dave wrote on Nov 6th, 2012 at 9:38am: You've got it all Abu. You hate America and the Jews, you believe in death by stoning, you call the people around you in daily life kafur, you want Sharia Law and you idolise Osama Bin Laden etc etc etc. I'M CALLING ASIO!!!!!! I'm just trying to work why you are on a public forum making Islam look worse. I don't even have to do anything because you do it for me. You'd be pretty brave calling ASIO, as all they'd see is you calling for the bombing of mosques. You'd wanna be keeping right out of their hair I'd say. I don't have to ring ASIO because they already know who you are.

Guaranteed.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 6^th, 2012 at 2:53pm:

Adamant wrote on Nov 6th, 2012 at 9:56am: why won't you accept that they have took back what was taken from them. In 1800 years time, do you think it'd be right for Aboriginals to boot Aussies out of their homes and into refugee camps? Adamant wrote on Nov 6th, 2012 at 9:56am: They have been there for three thousand years.. Please read some history. They were there for about 1000 years, 2000 years ago. Not for 3000 years. Arabs are the ones who've been there for about 2500 years. Adamant wrote on Nov 6th, 2012 at 9:56am: You banned them from the Temple Mount for a Thousand of them just because a doped out of his head human being claimed he flew there on a winged horse with the face of a human and tied the beast up to the wailing wall. Actually it was Christians who did that. Muslims did agree with Christians to continue implementing it, as a condition of us taking over. But we ended up softening and letting them come back... real stupid move that was.

Aboriginals have invented nothing more than a bent stick after 40,000 years of living here. We house feed, cloth, give them money, educate and house them and we don't charge them the jizya. They love us. Why would they want us out?

Jews were in the area 3700 years ago to be more accurate so you go and learn history.

Yes the Romans banned them but they were allowed to visit once a year.Your mob banned them from the temple mount totally.

Did you know that you lot buried the foundation stone a holy stone of the Jews. And here I was thinking your happy band of heathens like stones.

Adamant wrote on Nov 7^th, 2012 at 5:02pm:

Jews were in the area 3700 years ago to be more accurate so you go and learn history.

The first mention of Hebrews/Israelites is not until about 1200 B.C, not sure how good you are at counting, but that's about half a millennium short of your claim. And even then, they are not mentioned as inhabiting Palestine, perhaps just one small portion. The bulk of it being inhabited by Canaanites, Phillistines and others.

The oldest Hebrew inscription is from around the same time, or a little later.

And they were gone by about 100 C.E, so all up no more than about 1300 years. Arabs on the other hand have their first definitive recorded historical mention there in about 500 B.C and are still present till this day. All up almost twice the length of time as the Jews.


Adamant wrote on Nov 7^th, 2012 at 5:02pm:

Yes the Romans banned them but they were allowed to visit once a year.Your mob banned them from the temple mount totally.

Muslims only eased the restrictions, not tightened them. You're full of it.


Adamant wrote on Nov 7^th, 2012 at 5:02pm:

Did you know that you lot buried the foundation stone a holy stone of the Jews. And here I was thinking your happy band of heathens like stones.

I can't make heads nor tails of this...  :-?

Muslims have the entire Arab world to live but yet they want to drive us from our homeland?

Avram Horowitz wrote on Nov 7^th, 2012 at 6:49pm:

Muslims have the entire Arab world to live but yet they want to drive us from our homeland?

It is not about the land, for the moslems.

For moslems, it is about their unhealthy desire to master [to be the masters of,] everyone around them.

IMAGE
http://inlinethumb12.webshots.com/35403/2492327210103726530S425x425Q85.jpg






If it was about land, there is plenty of moslem lands, deserts, around Israel,
WHERE NATION BUILDING NEEDS TO BE UNDERTAKEN.

IMAGE
http://www.protestwarrior.com/nimages/signs/large/pw_sign_22.gifi


"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123


"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 6^th, 2012 at 3:52pm:

squatter.

Abu,

You claim that you are a servant/slave of the God of creation.

The piece of land that is known as 'the land of Israel', belongs to the God of creation [not to men].

Correct ?




Abu,

Don't you believe that the God of creation will give the land to whom he [the God of creation] pleases ?

The prize that God is offering to man, is possession of the land.

And God, is going to give 'the land' to whom he will.


Abu,

Can't you agree, with that argument ?








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Matthew 6:10
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.