France learns to live with the 'burqa bill'

Date
    September 3, 2012


PARIS: During a recent protest in Marseille, seven people were suddenly surrounded by the police, bundled into a van and brought in for questioning. Their offence was not the demonstration itself but the balaclavas they were wearing, a violation of the French law banning full-face veils in public places, passed in April 2011.   

The demonstration was against the conviction of the feminist Russian punk band Pussy Riot, hence the balaclavas, but the law was aimed at what Nicolas Sarkozy, then the president, considered a rise in Islamic extremism in France.

From the beginning, critics warned that the law, in addition to depriving Muslim women of their rights, would inflame tensions already raised to a high pitch by the economic crisis, riots and lingering fears of terrorism, on one side, and accusations of racism on the other. A little more than a year later, defenders and critics agree the actual impact of the law has been far less dramatic than the politicised prologue, largely because of tolerance from most Muslims and the police.

France's experience with the burqa bill is in many ways a proxy for the country's - and Europe's - ability to integrate its Muslim population, the largest on the continent. The Belgian government hopes to enact a similar ban on the niqab - which covers every part of the face except the eyes, and is popularly and mistakenly called a burqa - and the Dutch government has said it hopes to pass such a law next year.


Since the law went into effect, 425 women wearing full-face veils have been fined up to €150 ($188) each and 66 others have received warnings, said Pierre-Henry Brandet, a spokesman for the Interior Ministry. But even the police concede they rarely enforce it, having no desire to increase tensions. In ''the great majority of cases'', Mr Brandet said, women lift their veils when the police ask in what he called ''a serene and respectful way on both sides''. Some women who wear the niqab say that for the most part the police know them and leave them alone.

But the issue does flare up. During the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, on the evening of July 24, a young woman outside a store-front mosque in Marseille refused to lift her veil and resisted the police. The confrontation was joined by several dozen bystanders outside the mosque, known for its Salafist preachers.

Police reinforcements were called to the outburst, the most violent since the law was passed, and four people were arrested. The incident seemed to reflect pent-up anger about the treatment of Muslims among more militant and conservative branches of Islam.

It was to avoid accusations of discrimination that the Sarkozy government originally wrote the bill as a security measure, proscribing anyone from wearing clothing ''intended to hide the face''. But it also set prison terms for anyone forcing another to wear the full-face veil, a measure clearly aimed at Muslims.

Defenders of the law, which has been popular with the public, said France needed to protect its ''republican values'' of secularism in the public space; many also said France's Muslims, immigrants and French-born, must accept French norms. Some said the law protected Muslim women from religious extremism and gave them freedom of choice, rather than taking it away.

Kenza Drider, an outspoken critic of the law, continues to wear the niqab as part of what she considers her religious duty as a married Muslim woman. A convert, she is the mother of four children and considers the law discriminatory and ''completely ridiculous''. When asked by the police to remove the veil she does so, but then immediately replaces it.



Read more: http://www.watoday.com.au/world/france-learns-to-live-with-the-burqa-bill-20120902-258i1.html#ixzz25MS9nWK0

People really need to learn how to set priorities.

Banning the veil is a security measure.

They are banned at every checkpoint i have manned - because we cannot confirm their identity to the card.

There are many signs in Arabic telling them veils are banned and if they do not comply to the soldier request they can be detained until they do confirm the identity.

Remember - security is most important than everything - keeping people safe.

Too little, too late. 

Avram Horowitz wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2012 at 11:10am:

Banning the veil is a security measure. They are banned at every checkpoint i have manned - because we cannot confirm their identity to the card. There are many signs in Arabic telling them veils are banned and if they do not comply to the soldier request they can be detained until they do confirm the identity. Remember - security is most important than everything - keeping people safe.

Destroying Israel is a security measure for the entire world.

We see women in Burqas and veils all the time at airports, banks and streets in Muslim countries.
Its quite common and yet security doesn't seem to be a problem anywhere but in warzones such as Iraq, Afghanistan and the occupied zones of Palestine.
Women in burqas and veils are easily accommodated when it comes to identification as Ive never seen any of them complain about lifting their face coverings for the appropriate people

Lifting for the appropriate people?

So what do you do when we have a checkpoint which can only be manned by male personnel because of security concerns?

Such as border near Sinai?

We can not let anyone through without a ID confirmation and that is the law.

Security is number 1 priority.

You know if you live in a country where people has disguised in a burqa and then blow up a schoolbus killing women and children as suicide - you would have a different opinion maybe.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2012 at 11:23am:

Lifting for the appropriate people? So what do you do when we have a checkpoint which can only be manned by male personnel because of security concerns? Such as border near Sinai? We can not let anyone through without a ID confirmation and that is the law. Security is number 1 priority. You know if you live in a country where people has disguised in a burqa and then blow up a schoolbus killing women and children as suicide - you would have a different opinion maybe.

Shopping centres, banks and airports in Muslim countries have security checkpoints and yet theres no problem with women showing their faces.
You are talking about war zones not about everyday life.
Ive sat on planes and in restaurants near women in full covering and not once did I think they were a threat.

adelcrow wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2012 at 11:30am:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Sep 3rd, 2012 at 11:23am: Lifting for the appropriate people? So what do you do when we have a checkpoint which can only be manned by male personnel because of security concerns? Such as border near Sinai? We can not let anyone through without a ID confirmation and that is the law. Security is number 1 priority. You know if you live in a country where people has disguised in a burqa and then blow up a schoolbus killing women and children as suicide - you would have a different opinion maybe. Shopping centres, banks and airports in Muslim countries have security checkpoints and yet theres no problem with women showing their faces. You are talking about war zones not about everyday life.Ive sat on planes and in restaurants near women in full covering and not once did I think they were a threat.

Is a schoolbus of women and children in a Jerusalem market place a war zone?

Avram Horowitz wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2012 at 11:32am:

adelcrow wrote on Sep 3rd, 2012 at 11:30am: Avram Horowitz wrote on Sep 3rd, 2012 at 11:23am: Lifting for the appropriate people? So what do you do when we have a checkpoint which can only be manned by male personnel because of security concerns? Such as border near Sinai? We can not let anyone through without a ID confirmation and that is the law. Security is number 1 priority. You know if you live in a country where people has disguised in a burqa and then blow up a schoolbus killing women and children as suicide - you would have a different opinion maybe. Shopping centres, banks and airports in Muslim countries have security checkpoints and yet theres no problem with women showing their faces. You are talking about war zones not about everyday life.Ive sat on planes and in restaurants near women in full covering and not once did I think they were a threat. Is a schoolbus of women and children in a Jerusalem market place a war zone?

Truly pathetic you disgusting terrorist.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2012 at 11:32am:

adelcrow wrote on Sep 3rd, 2012 at 11:30am: Avram Horowitz wrote on Sep 3rd, 2012 at 11:23am: Lifting for the appropriate people? So what do you do when we have a checkpoint which can only be manned by male personnel because of security concerns? Such as border near Sinai? We can not let anyone through without a ID confirmation and that is the law. Security is number 1 priority. You know if you live in a country where people has disguised in a burqa and then blow up a schoolbus killing women and children as suicide - you would have a different opinion maybe. Shopping centres, banks and airports in Muslim countries have security checkpoints and yet theres no problem with women showing their faces. You are talking about war zones not about everyday life.Ive sat on planes and in restaurants near women in full covering and not once did I think they were a threat. Is a schoolbus of women and children in a Jerusalem market place a war zone?

All of Palestine including the occupied zones are war zones.

1) There is no Palestine

2) Jerusalem is not in Palestinian land.

It was a market place. Read about it - a Hamas "martyr" disguised as a woman in a veil got to a bus and set off a bomb which killed pregnant women, 11 month old child, 3 year old child, many other women and under 18s.

This is the work of a "hero".

This is why we have these rules.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2012 at 11:44am:

1) There is no Palestine 2) Jerusalem is not in Palestinian land. It was a market place. Read about it - a Hamas "martyr" disguised as a woman in a veil got to a bus and set off a bomb which killed pregnant women, 11 month old child, 3 year old child, many other women and under 18s. This is the work of a "hero". This is why we have these rules.

All of what you said is why its a war zone and why it always be one until the colonial settlers go back to Europe.

I am Middle Eastern

Avram Horowitz wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2012 at 11:44am:

1) There is no Palestine 2) Jerusalem is not in Palestinian land. It was a market place. Read about it - a Hamas "martyr" disguised as a woman in a veil got to a bus and set off a bomb which killed pregnant women, 11 month old child, 3 year old child, many other women and under 18s. This is the work of a "hero". This is why we have these rules.

Filthy terrorist, enjoy your holocaust.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2012 at 11:46am:

I am Middle Eastern

What ever...if you fellas are happy living in a war zone of your own making until the end of time thats up to you.

adelcrow wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2012 at 11:48am:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Sep 3rd, 2012 at 11:46am: I am Middle Eastern What ever...if you fellas are happy living in a war zone of your own making until the end of time thats up to you.

Like I have said before - the new generation of people in the land of Israel can bring peace.
My generation - born in the land, brought in the land and prepared to talk to moderates.

The early Israelis fought bravely to build the land - Ben Gurion, Dayan, Meir etc - then comes the people like my younger generation who will keep it and build a more trust worthy peace.

We are not moving, we are not going.

The UN supports us, the USA supports - and look even you Australia supports us.

So it will only be a war zone if the Palestinians want it to be.

If they want peace we can bring it.

If they want war, they know too we can easily bring it too.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2012 at 11:53am:

adelcrow wrote on Sep 3rd, 2012 at 11:48am: Avram Horowitz wrote on Sep 3rd, 2012 at 11:46am: I am Middle Eastern What ever...if you fellas are happy living in a war zone of your own making until the end of time thats up to you. Like I have said before - the new generation of people in the land of Israel can bring peace. My generation - born in the land, brought in the land and prepared to talk to moderates. The early Israelis fought bravely to build the land - Ben Gurion, Dayan, Meir etc - then comes the people like my younger generation who will keep it and build a more trust worthy peace. We are not moving, we are not going. The UN supports us, the USA supports - and look even you Australia supports us. So it will only be a war zone if the Palestinians want it to be. If they want peace we can bring it. If they want war, they know too we can easily bring it too.

Like I said..enjoy living in a warzone until the end of time.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2012 at 11:10am:

Banning the veil is a security measure. They are banned at every checkpoint i have manned - because we cannot confirm their identity to the card. There are many signs in Arabic telling them veils are banned and if they do not comply to the soldier request they can be detained until they do confirm the identity. Remember - security is most important than everything - keeping people safe.

but it wasnt a checkpoint or even a bank. In fact it wasnt even burqas. That article has the purpose of stirring up with dog whistles.

SOB

Haifa is peaceful.

But warzone? If they want it to be.

It is they in camps, not us. So they can make their choice.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2012 at 11:23am:

Lifting for the appropriate people? So what do you do when we have a checkpoint which can only be manned by male personnel because of security concerns? Such as border near Sinai? We can not let anyone through without a ID confirmation and that is the law. Security is number 1 priority. You know if you live in a country where people has disguised in a burqa and then blow up a schoolbus killing women and children as suicide - you would have a different opinion maybe.

avram this thread is not about israel or you.

France. This took place in france. no "check  points".

SOB

Avram Horowitz wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2012 at 11:44am:

1) There is no Palestine 2) Jerusalem is not in Palestinian land. It was a market place. Read about it - a Hamas "martyr" disguised as a woman in a veil got to a bus and set off a bomb which killed pregnant women, 11 month old child, 3 year old child, many other women and under 18s. This is the work of a "hero". This is why we have these rules.

Who cares we are talking about france

SOB

Seriously i doubt the burqa will be banned in australia - unless they want to ban helmets and balaclavas etc in the streets. In banks you already have to take them off.

I think france has gone too far with this banning of stuff in the streets. do they have cold winters?

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2012 at 12:03pm:

Seriously i doubt the burqa will be banned in australia - unless they want to ban helmets and balaclavas etc in the streets. In banks you already have to take them off. I think france has gone too far with this banning of stuff in the streets. do they have cold winters? SOB

Its pretty stupid..try sitting in an international airport or hotel lobby these days and burqa and veil clad women are common place.
I can see the point of jumping at shadows in war zones but not in everyday life

Hah It's all about ISreal  again, (not). F. O. Horrorwit.

If the Niqab is an exercise of womens rights, I'm a mormon.   

bobbythefap1 wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2012 at 11:48am:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Sep 3rd, 2012 at 11:44am: 1) There is no Palestine 2) Jerusalem is not in Palestinian land. It was a market place. Read about it - a Hamas "martyr" disguised as a woman in a veil got to a bus and set off a bomb which killed pregnant women, 11 month old child, 3 year old child, many other women and under 18s. This is the work of a "hero". This is why we have these rules. Filthy terrorist, enjoy your holocaust.

west apo should be given a posting holiday for that response.
totally out of order

Sprintcyclist wrote on Sep 4^th, 2012 at 8:11pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Sep 3rd, 2012 at 11:48am: Avram Horowitz wrote on Sep 3rd, 2012 at 11:44am: 1) There is no Palestine 2) Jerusalem is not in Palestinian land. It was a market place. Read about it - a Hamas "martyr" disguised as a woman in a veil got to a bus and set off a bomb which killed pregnant women, 11 month old child, 3 year old child, many other women and under 18s. This is the work of a "hero". This is why we have these rules. Filthy terrorist, enjoy your holocaust. west apo should be given a posting holiday for that response. totally out of order

Sticking up for a terrorist is pathetic and you should be ashamed.

French shielas are pretty hot.

... wrote on Sep 5^th, 2012 at 1:29pm:

French shielas are pretty hot.

Your thinking of the French blokes, the anatomical girls are the ones with facial hair.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2012 at 12:03pm:

Seriously i doubt the burqa will be banned in australia - unless they want to ban helmets and balaclavas etc in the streets. In banks you already have to take them off. I think france has gone too far with this banning of stuff in the streets. do they have cold winters? SOB

You think?  You don't.

Article 1.

France shall be an indivisible, secular, democratic and social Republic. It shall ensure the equality of all citizens before the law, without distinction of origin, race or religion. It shall respect all beliefs. It shall be organised on a decentralised basis.

Statutes shall promote equal access by women and men to elective offices and posts as well as to position of professional and social responsibility.


France is a secular state - Article 1 of the constitution.
Equal access by women and men to ... and social responsibility - also Article 1.

The burqa worn in the public space violates Article 1 of the constitution. That's why it is banned.

Not because have cold winters or any some such super-lame-o nonsense, Derek.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyrbslXx7_c

france has found a method of remaining french.