Just to skip fast the first few pages of inevitable BS (see the previous thread), I am not asking whether Abu is on the verge of single handedly overthrowing the Australian government. The question is as simple as it seems - does Abu want Shariah law for Australia? The only reason I ask such a silly question is that both spot and Abu are reluctant to acknowledge it and did an interesting dance around the question last time.

This is the deflection we got last time spot asked the same question. Notice Abu even pretended I asked the question instead of spot to help justify his refusal to give a straight answer.


abu_rashid wrote on Jul 25^th, 2012 at 9:33pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:48am: Do you want sharia law for yourself and your family or for everyone in australia Islam is a state system, not an individual or family system, so freediver even asking if  I plan to implement it on all Australians is just ludicrous. I have no power to implement any state system, and debating it is just a fruitless waste of time (just like all of fd's questions).

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 21^st, 2012 at 1:46pm:

Abu - freediver says you want to kill me and all other non-believers. He says you do not like "freedom and democracy" (although its debatable we have either in this country). Are these statements true? Do you want to change australian way of life to your way? SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2012 at 9:51am:

There ya go freeliar. Wher did he say he wanted to enforce islam?

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2012 at 11:39am:

Okay abu under what circumstances would you feel obliged to kill me or other non-believers?

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 10:02am:

No I saw him say that but he also said he didnt care if australia has its democracy. He just wants muslim countries to be muslim. Fair enough i reckon for a religious person Do you ant to stop israel being jewish?

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 27^th, 2012 at 1:40pm:

Some muslims may want sharia law for themselves and their families and maybe even their country (that would be extreme though) but abu pretty much said to me that he isnt working towards this goal.

Spot, when you say he "pretty much said" it, are you conceding that he did not actually say it and that you are assuming?




abu_rashid wrote on Aug 3^rd, 2008 at 9:54pm:

One of my favourite ones is one that highlights the political nature of Islam. It's regarding a pious man who lived in a city that was filled with impiety. God almighty had ordained that the city was to be destroyed because it was so filled with evil and wickedness, and so he called upon his angels and commanded them to lay waste to the city. But they mentioned that there was a man who lived in that city who was one of the most pious and earnest worshippers on earth, and so their Lord commanded that they should continue the destrution and in fact begin with that man. He lived all his life amongst those people and did not try to fix the society in which he lived, believing himself to be pious and righteous because he carried out his own private rituals of worship. So no matter how good you are as an individual, you must always work for the betterment of society, and must take an active role in the political life of the society, and that is in fact part of your worship, which would not be complete without this aspect.

You have quoted my questions but not all of his answers.

SOB

I posted an example of one of his deflections.

I asked you whether you think he 'actually' said he does not want it, rather than 'pretty much' saying it. If you think he actually said that he does not want shariah for Australia, quote him. All I saw him do was allow you to continue fooling yourself.

freediver wrote on Aug 5^th, 2012 at 8:34am:

Just to skip fast the first few pages of inevitable BS (see the previous thread), I am not asking whether Abu is on the verge of single handedly overthrowing the Australian government. The question is as simple as it seems - does Abu want Shariah law for Australia? The only reason I ask such a silly question is that both spot and Abu are reluctant to acknowledge it and did an interesting dance around the question last time. This is the deflection we got last time spot asked the same question. Notice Abu even pretended I asked the question instead of spot to help justify his refusal to give a straight answer. abu_rashid wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 9:33pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:48am: Do you want sharia law for yourself and your family or for everyone in australia Islam is a state system, not an individual or family system, so freediver even asking if  I plan to implement it on all Australians is just ludicrous. I have no power to implement any state system, and debating it is just a fruitless waste of time (just like all of fd's questions). Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 21st, 2012 at 1:46pm: Abu - freediver says you want to kill me and all other non-believers. He says you do not like "freedom and democracy" (although its debatable we have either in this country). Are these statements true? Do you want to change australian way of life to your way? SOB Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 22nd, 2012 at 9:51am: There ya go freeliar. Wher did he say he wanted to enforce islam? Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 22nd, 2012 at 11:39am: Okay abu under what circumstances would you feel obliged to kill me or other non-believers? Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 27th, 2012 at 10:02am: No I saw him say that but he also said he didnt care if australia has its democracy. He just wants muslim countries to be muslim. Fair enough i reckon for a religious person Do you ant to stop israel being jewish? Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jul 27th, 2012 at 1:40pm: Some muslims may want sharia law for themselves and their families and maybe even their country (that would be extreme though) but abu pretty much said to me that he isnt working towards this goal. Spot, when you say he "pretty much said" it, are you conceding that he did not actually say it and that you are assuming? abu_rashid wrote on Aug 3rd, 2008 at 9:54pm: One of my favourite ones is one that highlights the political nature of Islam. It's regarding a pious man who lived in a city that was filled with impiety. God almighty had ordained that the city was to be destroyed because it was so filled with evil and wickedness, and so he called upon his angels and commanded them to lay waste to the city. But they mentioned that there was a man who lived in that city who was one of the most pious and earnest worshippers on earth, and so their Lord commanded that they should continue the destrution and in fact begin with that man. He lived all his life amongst those people and did not try to fix the society in which he lived, believing himself to be pious and righteous because he carried out his own private rituals of worship. So no matter how good you are as an individual, you must always work for the betterment of society, and must take an active role in the political life of the society, and that is in fact part of your worship, which would not be complete without this aspect.

Would it be ok then Spot if christians just want christian countries to be christian?

fd, you still can't see how ridiculous you are being on this issue. You are somehow blinded to the stupidity of your own questions, and seem to have no process of using feedback to determine it.

The only point worth discussing is whether you actually believe there's any remote possibility, I may single handedly decide what political system Australia will be run according to. If you believe that, then you're even dafter than I've so far imagined. If you don't believe that, then your insistence on this discussion is just a waste of everyone's time (obviously your time is pretty worthless).

I don't think anyone, least of all spot, is in any doubt that as a Muslim of course I'd love to see the entire world living according to Islam. Unlike you though, spot seems to understand that is really not a point worth discussing, and most certainly is not worthy of the hype you (and certain Today tonight producers) seem to think it is.

Anyway, carry on with your pointless discussion, if you must.

xtians and muslims and jews and mormons and krishnas and all the others all want everyone to be of their faith and run things by their religion. We are not in equal danger from them all either. Xtians seem to have a bit of an upper hand.

I expect freediver finds it amusing to try to force me to defend a religious person. i am against any religion having anything to do with politics. Xtians are the threat in australia not muslims.

SOB

Stoning to death a 13 year old girl for being raped by a gang of men.

welcome to shariah law in the Muslim world.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Aug 5^th, 2012 at 12:51pm:

Stoning to death a 13 year old girl for being raped by a gang of men. welcome to shariah law in the Muslim world.

Sucking blood off a babies penis and giving them diseases welcome to jewish world.

SOB

Abu should live in Iran not try to change our laws.

Bobby. wrote on Aug 5^th, 2012 at 2:22pm:

Abu should live in Iran not try to change our laws.

That is Muslims for you Bobby.

They want your women to dress a certain way in their countries "to observe their law and customs" (but by the way they do not even allow me in to the country because of my passport) - and then they come to a white country like australia and demand to do their own thing "to observe their law and customs".

I know Muslims, I know them too well.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Aug 5^th, 2012 at 3:11pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 5th, 2012 at 2:22pm: Abu should live in Iran not try to change our laws. That is Muslims for you Bobby. They want your women to dress a certain way in their countries "to observe their law and customs" (but by the way they do not even allow me in to the country because of my passport) - and then they come to a white country like australia and demand to do their own thing "to observe their law and customs". I know Muslims, I know them too well.

Hi Avram,
I am learning about them.
As we speak they are executing women & children in cold blood in Syria
& yelling Allah Akbar.

Bobby. wrote on Aug 5^th, 2012 at 3:15pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Aug 5th, 2012 at 3:11pm: Bobby. wrote on Aug 5th, 2012 at 2:22pm: Abu should live in Iran not try to change our laws. That is Muslims for you Bobby. They want your women to dress a certain way in their countries "to observe their law and customs" (but by the way they do not even allow me in to the country because of my passport) - and then they come to a white country like australia and demand to do their own thing "to observe their law and customs". I know Muslims, I know them too well. Hi Avram, I am learning about them. As we speak they are executing women & children in cold blood in Syria & yelling Allah Akbar.

Bobby in 2008, we were called to a disturbance outside the refugee camp on the border and 2 Muslim women saying they lost their young sons down a drainage pipe.

So we get out of the jeeps and go to look.

When we go close, there is gunfire from inside the camp at us - the aim of the Muslims is to use crying women to try to get IDF into range to shoot at them.

One of my friends is badly injured from this and retire from the army early.

They are liars and thieves.

That's terrible Avram.

Did you see my post here:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1343773277/15#15

Bobby. wrote on Aug 5^th, 2012 at 3:15pm:

Hi Avram, I am learning about them. As we speak they are executing women & children in cold blood in Syria & yelling Allah Akbar.

If you had half an iota of grey matter in that thick skull of yours, you'd know MUSLIMS are the ones being executed, by the Shi'a/Ba'athist/Secularist monsters of the Western-installed Syrian regime.

Interestingly only a few years ago Bashar was torturing the same Muslims, but at the request of the U.S, and apparently he was "showing promise".

Bobby. wrote on Aug 5^th, 2012 at 3:15pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Aug 5th, 2012 at 3:11pm: Bobby. wrote on Aug 5th, 2012 at 2:22pm: Abu should live in Iran not try to change our laws. That is Muslims for you Bobby. They want your women to dress a certain way in their countries "to observe their law and customs" (but by the way they do not even allow me in to the country because of my passport) - and then they come to a white country like australia and demand to do their own thing "to observe their law and customs". I know Muslims, I know them too well. Hi Avram, I am learning about them. As we speak they are executing women & children in cold blood in Syria & yelling Allah Akbar.

That isnt because they are muslim - its because they live in Syria and they have problems (we dont know yet who is causing them). They just happen to be muslims.

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 5^th, 2012 at 4:34pm:

That isnt because they are muslim - its because they live in Syria and they have problems (we dont know yet who is causing them). They just happen to be muslims. SOB

Spot, we know very well who's causing them, it's the Ba'athist/Secularist/Alawite regime that was foisted upon the Muslims of Syria 50 odd years ago, and who have been oppressing, torturing, murdering them ever since. Finally the people have taken the example of Libya, Tunisia, Egypt and said is enough is enough and are going to sacrifice their current generation to remove these monsters from power.

You wonder why we think you are like packs of desert dogs?

No structure or organisation and always fighting among your selfs.

How funny it is on the west bank when your people call to us the soldiers to intervene in your arguments?

Avram Horowitz wrote on Aug 5^th, 2012 at 4:56pm:

You wonder why we think you are like packs of desert dogs? No structure or organisation and always fighting among your selfs. How funny it is on the west bank when your people call to us the soldiers to intervene in your arguments?

The Alawite Ba'athists are not "ourselves" they are as foreign a body to us as you are. They worship Bashar, not God.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkiBXZCueeY&feature=related

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 5^th, 2012 at 4:26pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 5th, 2012 at 3:15pm: Hi Avram, I am learning about them. As we speak they are executing women & children in cold blood in Syria & yelling Allah Akbar. If you had half an iota of grey matter in that thick skull of yours, you'd know MUSLIMS are the ones being executed, by the Shi'a/Ba'athist/Secularist monsters of the Western-installed Syrian regime. Interestingly only a few years ago Bashar was torturing the same Muslims, but at the request of the U.S, and apparently he was "showing promise".

They are still Muslims slaughtering other Muslims.
They will burn in hell forever according to your Koran.

Quote:

The only point worth discussing is whether you actually believe there's any remote possibility, I may single handedly decide what political system Australia will be run according to.

Actually Abu, I am interested in why you refuse to admit something so obvious to Spot and why you went to such lengths in the other thread to reinforce spot's misconceptions.


Quote:

I don't think anyone, least of all spot, is in any doubt that as a Muslim of course I'd love to see the entire world living according to Islam. Unlike you though, spot seems to understand that is really not a point worth discussing

You spent a few pages in the other thread reinforcing his view that you do not want Shariah law for Australia. Are you now claiming to be unaware that spot thinks you don't want Shariah law?


Quote:

and most certainly is not worthy of the hype you (and certain Today tonight producers) seem to think it is.

This has nothing to do with today tonight. The only reason there is any discussion at all is because of your silly dancing around the issue, because you didn't want to correct any misconception of Islam that might work in your favour.


Quote:

I expect freediver finds it amusing to try to force me to defend a religious person.

I do not want you to defend him. I am just trying to get you to acknowledge the reality - that Abu wants Shariah law for Australia and that Islam differs fundamentally from other religions in the extent of the legal imposition and that the legal imposition tends to come first.


Quote:

i am against any religion having anything to do with politics.

So why are you so keen to deny that Abu wants Shariah law for Australia? Do you think pretending Muslims don't want this is an effective way to counter the movement?


Quote:

If you had half an iota of grey matter in that thick skull of yours, you'd know MUSLIMS are the ones being executed, by the Shi'a/Ba'athist/Secularist monsters of the Western-installed Syrian regime.

So tell us Abu, what is the appropriate punishment under Sunni Islam for being a Shite?


Quote:

That isnt because they are muslim - its because they live in Syria and they have problems (we dont know yet who is causing them). They just happen to be muslims.

They just happen to be two different types of Muslims who think that the death penalty should apply to the other. Ask Abu about it. This is why he is so reluctant to give a straight answer about what he wants - because it sheds so much light on why Shites and Sunnis are killing each other. Like Abu, they want to impose Shariah law. They even agree with Abu that the death penalty should apply for anyone promoting the wrong version. The only problem is, the Shites and Sunnis have different versions. The broader political issues are actually not that relevant. As soon as there is any kind of power vacuum in Muslim dominated countries across the middle east and north Africa, Shites and Sunnis start killing each other.

Quote:

Shites and Sunnis start killing each other.

Like the Catholics & Protestants in Ireland.

Religion is very dangerous - I am against it.

Quote:

Like the Catholics & Protestants in Ireland.

A long time ago it was like this all over Europe. We call it the dark ages. Abu calls it enlightenment, but only when Sunni Muslims do it.

freediver wrote on Aug 5^th, 2012 at 8:24pm:

Quote: Like the Catholics & Protestants in Ireland. A long time ago it was like this all over Europe. We call it the dark ages. Abu calls it enlightenment, but only when Sunni Muslims do it.

They will grow up one day.

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 5^th, 2012 at 4:49pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 5th, 2012 at 4:34pm: That isnt because they are muslim - its because they live in Syria and they have problems (we dont know yet who is causing them). They just happen to be muslims. SOB Spot, we know very well who's causing them, it's the Ba'athist/Secularist/Alawite regime that was foisted upon the Muslims of Syria 50 odd years ago, and who have been oppressing, torturing, murdering them ever since. Finally the people have taken the example of Libya, Tunisia, Egypt and said is enough is enough and are going to sacrifice their current generation to remove these monsters from power.

Not sure what that means So it is about religion? How is it about religion? Seems civil warrish to me. Or provoked.

SOB

Quote:

You spent a few pages in the other thread reinforcing his view that you do not want Shariah law for Australia. Are you now claiming to be unaware that spot thinks you don't want Shariah law?

Like i have said several time and Abu saw it but you are selectively blind - i know all religions want to impose their beliefs on everyone else. They all want everyone else to be just like them. Its how it works. However the threat in australia is the xtians not the muslims. The xtians are closer to imposing their crap on the rest of us than the muslims.

Abu is not personally trying to bring it about. I had thought he was a radical from all the crap you have been saying about him but he may just be a normal religious person. Unlike Yadda and avram who want to kill all palestinians.


Quote:

So why are you so keen to deny that Abu wants Shariah law for Australia? Do you think pretending Muslims don't want this is an effective way to counter the movement?

WTF? You are misrepresenting again. I sussed out if we were in immanent danger from abu and/or his group and we are not as far as i can tell. I used your questions in fact. Of course he wants his religion too be dominant in the world - all religious ppl do however the muslims in australia seem to be striving to have it for themselves first rather than everyone else.


Quote:

They just happen to be two different types of Muslims who think that the death penalty should apply to the other. Ask Abu about it. This is why he is so reluctant to give a straight answer about what he wants - because it sheds so much light on why Shites and Sunnis are killing each other. Like Abu, they want to impose Shariah law. They even agree with Abu that the death penalty should apply for anyone promoting the wrong version. The only problem is, the Shites and Sunnis have different versions. The broader political issues are actually not that relevant. As soon as there is any kind of power vacuum in Muslim dominated countries across the middle east and north Africa, Shites and Sunnis start killing each other.

Maybe but it isnt the cause of the problem. The cause is the lack of law and order and outside interference. If there was not such law and order in western countries we would have the same violence between xtian sects. As it is the majority have to justify all the violent bits in there book as "figurative" not literal.

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 6^th, 2012 at 6:10am:

Not sure what that means So it is about religion? How is it about religion? Seems civil warrish to me. Or provoked. SOB

It is not about religion, it is about secularists wanting to eradicate Muslims.

Syria is a largely [Orthodox] Muslim country, but the French left a family from a tiny minority group called the Alawites in power. In reality though they are members of the Arabic equivalent of Nazism (Ba'athism), and are staunchly secular. In the video above, you can see they mock religion by prostrating to Bashar al-Assad. They have no connection to religion at all. You can even see in some videos them forcing Muslims to denounce Islam, and to testify there is no deity except Bashar.

Also there are Alawites fighting on the side of the rebels and there are also Muslims (albeit severely deluded ones) fighting on the side of the Ba'athists. It is nothing to do with religious division, other than the family of Assad happens to be from the Alawite minority.

freediver wrote on Aug 5^th, 2012 at 7:04pm:

They just happen to be two different types of Muslims who think that the death penalty should apply to the other. Ask Abu about it. This is why he is so reluctant to give a straight answer about what he wants - because it sheds so much light on why Shites and Sunnis are killing each other. Like Abu, they want to impose Shariah law. They even agree with Abu that the death penalty should apply for anyone promoting the wrong version. The only problem is, the Shites and Sunnis have different versions. The broader political issues are actually not that relevant. As soon as there is any kind of power vacuum in Muslim dominated countries across the middle east and north Africa, Shites and Sunnis start killing each other.

Firstly the Alawites are not even considered Shi'ites.

Secondly, the regime is staunchly secular and anti-religion. They are not even basing their fight on Alawism, but on secularist atheist ideals. As the video above shows, they have no problem prostrating to Assad, something no Muslim would ever do, nor even a Shi'ite, and probably not even a practising Alawite.

Abu,
as a moderator - set a good example & answer all the questions.

The thing that gets me is how everything is the blame of the west when muslims start killing one another. It was some past colonial power that left a power vacuum 70 years ago or some western created puppet government. Syria has been one of the most closed of muslim nations for many decades. Everything thing that is happening there is their own doing. Muslims have killed one another for century upon century. Remember the Iran/Iraq War Abu.

Big Dave wrote on Aug 6^th, 2012 at 9:37am:

The thing that gets me is how everything is the blame of the west when muslims start killing one another. It was some past colonial power that left a power vacuum 70 years ago or some western created puppet government. Syria has been one of the most closed of muslim nations for many decades. Everything thing that is happening there is their own doing. Muslims have killed one another for century upon century. Remember the Iran/Iraq War Abu.

Didnt he just explain that it wasnt muslims killing each other? Are you getting "middle eastern" mixed up with "muslim"?

SOB

Syria is a muslim nation , so it is muslims killing muslims. Look it up Spot. Just the same as in Egypt, Libya and  Afghanistan

Islam would have to be the most divided religon on earth. Firstly you have the nations that hate each other. Jordon hates Syria while Iran hates Iraq etc etc. Then you have the races that hate one another. Persians dislike arabs while they all look down on the black muslims. Then you have the tribes (gangs). E.g I was watching a doco on the Australian Army in Afghanistan the other day. They passed through a village and were given fruit while a couple of kms down the road they were being shot at. Then you have the family groups that want to kill each other for whatever silly reason. The only thing they have in common is that they all hate the jews and the USA. Then you go on Aussie Muslim. com and they're calling each other brother and sister. It starts from the ground up (family to country). I can't see how muslims even have a common law (sharia). There isn't any law except the law of the gun. That's where the Taliban comes in.

Spot:


Quote:

Like i have said several time and Abu saw it but you are selectively blind - i know all religions want to impose their beliefs on everyone else.

You seem to have made an exception for Islam. Just look at your quotes in the opening post. They are all about reading the most benign possible intent into what Abu did not say.


Quote:

However the threat in australia is the xtians not the muslims. The xtians are closer to imposing their crap on the rest of us than the muslims.

I think the threat of external war and internal or external terrorism is far greater than either. Here again it would help for both you and Abu to acknowledge the reality - not about the magnitude of the threat, but of the underlying forces of what people want. If you cannot bring yourself to admit to what people want then you have no hope at all of assessing the threat they pose.


Quote:

Abu is not personally trying to bring it about. I had thought he was a radical from all the crap you have been saying about him but he may just be a normal religious person.

Again, you are reading an aweful lot into what he does not say, while flat out rejecting what he does say - eg when he openly admits to rejecting freedom and democracy and feeling a moral imperative to change Australia.


Quote:

WTF? You are misrepresenting again. I sussed out if we were in immanent danger from abu and/or his group and we are not as far as i can tell.

;D You pretty much begged him to lie to you, and when he refused to do that you made it up instead. That is why you have to put words into his mouth rather than quote him, and refuse to ask for clarification when he gives childish excuses for not offering a straight answer.


Quote:

I used your questions in fact. Of course he wants his religion too be dominant in the world - all religious ppl do however the muslims in australia seem to be striving to have it for themselves first rather than everyone else.

You used my questions and got the same non-answer I did, then proceded to pretend that you got what you wanted to hear.

What does this mean spot? How hard do you have to 'strive' to obey your own rules? Does that mean you aren't striving to impose them on others?


Quote:

Maybe but it isnt the cause of the problem.

So the fact that they want to kill each other has nothing to do with the fact that they are killing each other? Is this another example of you 'sussing out' the threat?


Quote:

The cause is the lack of law and order and outside interference.

How does this contradict what I said - that as soon as there is a power a vacuum they start killing each other? It seems a bit silly to blame the power vacuum.


Quote:

If there was not such law and order in western countries we would have the same violence between xtian sects.

We have had breakdowns of law and order before. The violence between religious sects did not emerge. They come a far distant second to purely political struggles, and have done for centuries.

Abu:


Quote:

It is not about religion, it is about secularists wanting to eradicate Muslims.

So why are you so afraid to talk about your views on Shites, other than to denounce them as not being Muslims and blame them and other sects for the violence?


Quote:

In the video above, you can see they mock religion by prostrating to Bashar al-Assad.

So tell us Abu, what is the appropriate punishment for mocking religion? If the world were to 'let muslims be muslims' what would their fate be?


Quote:

Firstly the Alawites are not even considered Shi'ites.

You mentioned Shites first Abu. But OK, seeing as you cannot bring yourself to discuss them, can you tell us what the appropriate Islamic punishment is for being an alawite?

Dave:


Quote:

The thing that gets me is how everything is the blame of the west when muslims start killing one another. It was some past colonial power that left a power vacuum 70 years ago or some western created puppet government. Syria has been one of the most closed of muslim nations for many decades. Everything thing that is happening there is their own doing. Muslims have killed one another for century upon century. Remember the Iran/Iraq War Abu.

You might find this enlightening. It is back from when Abu was not so afraid to give a straight answer:


abu_rashid wrote on Oct 14^th, 2008 at 6:29pm:

sprint, Quote: abu - you dont blieve ANYTHING untoward said about ANY muslim EVER. Generally, no, I don't. I try to always think good about Muslims, and make excuses for them. This is an Islamic etiquette, like it or lump it.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 15^th, 2008 at 9:42am:

Quote: Could you elbaborate on this 'Islamic etiquette' please Abu? The first rule is to extend to a Muslim the benefit of the doubt

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 15^th, 2008 at 8:02pm:

Quote: Every single post of yours is riddled with bias and bigotry, which you yourself recently have admitted Yes, i can admit I am biased towards Islam

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 15^th, 2008 at 4:20pm:

Also it can be further understood by supporting hadiths such as this one: "Whosoever conceals the faults of a Muslim, Allah will conceal his faults in this world and the Hereafter. Allah will aid a servant (of His) so long as the servant aids his brother."

Quote:

Didnt he just explain that it wasnt muslims killing each other?

No Spot. Again you are reading what you want to read rather than what is actually there. He denounced one side as not being Muslims. However, he even does this for Shites. He claimed it has nothing to do with religion, then went on to complain about how the 'other side' had an incorrect interpretation of Islam. Think about it. It is like a Protestant saying that the problems in Ireland have nothing at all to do with religion because the Catholics are not even religious. You go to absurd lengths to excuse Islam's role in this violence, yet happily make sweeping generalisations about other religions being th cause of violence. Why the double standard?

Big Dave wrote on Aug 6^th, 2012 at 9:37am:

The thing that gets me is how everything is the blame of the west when muslims start killing one another. It was some past colonial power that left a power vacuum 70 years ago or some western created puppet government. Syria has been one of the most closed of muslim nations for many decades. Everything thing that is happening there is their own doing. Muslims have killed one another for century upon century. Remember the Iran/Iraq War Abu.

Big Dave wrote on Aug 6^th, 2012 at 2:05pm:

Syria is a muslim nation , so it is muslims killing muslims. Look it up Spot. Just the same as in Egypt, Libya and  Afghanistan

Big Dave,

The Western colonialist powers left certain minorities in charge of certain countries for a good reason. I don't think anyone can doubt the divide and rule policies of the colonialists.

Although Syria has a largely Muslim population, the country itself has been ruled by the ideology of Ba'athism for the past 60 or so years. There's nothing "muslim" about Ba'athism, it is an anti-Islamic Nazi-like ideology, which has oppressed Muslims all over the Arab world since it was first founded as a movement.

You seem to be operating under some really ignorant delusion that if a country is Arabic, therefore it's a "muslim" country, ruling by Islam, and representing Islam and that all of its interactions and transactions stem from Islam and have some connection to Islam. This is just ludicrous.

Syria is a nation of Muslims who have been suppressed under a Ba'athist regime. The situation there is a result of Ba'athism being forced onto a people, nothing more nothing less.

But you are a pack of desert dogs with no order.

You know we could drive you into the sea if we so wish yes?

Everyday you should be grateful we showed Arabs mercy when they stupidly attack us.

Quote:

You seem to be operating under some really ignorant delusion that if a country is Arabic, therefore it's a "muslim" country, ruling by Islam, and representing Islam and that all of its interactions and transactions stem from Islam and have some connection to Islam. This is just ludicrous.

Of course. It is all George Bush's fault that Muslims slaughter each other at every opportunity.


Quote:

There's nothing "muslim" about Ba'athism, it is an anti-Islamic Nazi-like ideology

Tell us how many Jews Muhammed slaughtered Abu.

Thje French pulled out of Syria in 1946 Abu . That's almost 70 years ago!!! The bloodshed is a Syrian issue and nobody elses.  These muslims are unbelievable and dillusional man!!! They even blame some past colonial era for their inability to get along in the modern world.

freediver wrote on Aug 6^th, 2012 at 8:46pm:

Of course. It is all George Bush's fault that Muslims slaughter each other at every opportunity.

When you get the concept that Muslims are not slaughtering Muslims in Syria, then maybe we can discuss the issue. Study up on the situation there, Muslims are attempting to rid themselves of the tyrannical Ba'athist regime, as are other Syrians, Christians, Alawites & Druze.


freediver wrote on Aug 6^th, 2012 at 8:46pm:

Tell us how many Jews Muhammed slaughtered Abu.

You've yet to show he slaughtered any Jew.

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 6^th, 2012 at 10:25pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 6th, 2012 at 8:46pm: Of course. It is all George Bush's fault that Muslims slaughter each other at every opportunity. When you get the concept that Muslims are not slaughtering Muslims in Syria, then maybe we can discuss the issue. Study up on the situation there, Muslims are attempting to rid themselves of the tyrannical Ba'athist regime, as are other Syrians, Christians, Alawites & Druze. freediver wrote on Aug 6th, 2012 at 8:46pm: Tell us how many Jews Muhammed slaughtered Abu. You've yet to show he slaughtered any Jew.

Muslims are killing Muslims in Syria.
That is fact.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Aug 6^th, 2012 at 10:37pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 6th, 2012 at 10:25pm: freediver wrote on Aug 6th, 2012 at 8:46pm: Of course. It is all George Bush's fault that Muslims slaughter each other at every opportunity. When you get the concept that Muslims are not slaughtering Muslims in Syria, then maybe we can discuss the issue. Study up on the situation there, Muslims are attempting to rid themselves of the tyrannical Ba'athist regime, as are other Syrians, Christians, Alawites & Druze. freediver wrote on Aug 6th, 2012 at 8:46pm: Tell us how many Jews Muhammed slaughtered Abu. You've yet to show he slaughtered any Jew. Muslims are killing Muslims in Syria. That is fact.

Hi Avram,
they are barbaric animals still stuck in the bronze age with modern weapons.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Aug 6^th, 2012 at 10:37pm:

Muslims are killing Muslims in Syria. That is fact.

I understand _your_ confusion Avram, since your religion is all mixed in with your ethnicity. Our religion is not like that. The Ba'athists may be Arabs, but they are not Muslims. Muslims (and other Syrians, Christians, Druze & Alawites etc) are fighting against Ba'athists, not against fellow Muslims.

So if a Druze soldier in the FSA kills an atheist Ba'athist, then you label this as "Muslims killing Muslims"?? Because both are Arabs?? And you don't have the basic intellect required to distinguish between them??

That false claim is a reflection of your low intellect, not of the facts.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 5^th, 2012 at 4:34pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 5th, 2012 at 3:15pm: Hi Avram, I am learning about them. As we speak they are executing women & children in cold blood in Syria & yelling Allah Akbar. That isnt because they are muslim - its because they live in Syria and they have problems (we dont know yet who is causing them). They just happen to be muslims. SOB

When moslems murder.....


Quote:

That isnt because they are muslim............They just happen to be muslims.

Yadda makes a comment;

IMAGE...
http://lamarzulli.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/head-in-the-sand1.jpeg

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 6^th, 2012 at 6:20am:

Quote: So why are you so keen to deny that Abu wants Shariah law for Australia? Do you think pretending Muslims don't want this is an effective way to counter the movement? WTF? You are misrepresenting again. I sussed out if we were in immanent danger from abu and/or his group and we are not as far as i can tell. I used your questions in fact. Of course he wants his religion too be dominant in the world - all religious ppl do however the muslims in australia seem to be striving to have it for themselves first rather than everyone else.

Imminent danger ?




So, IN YOUR OPINION, we are NOT in danger from moslems [.....living in Australia].

But we are in 'danger' from 'xtians'.    http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1344119653/5#5


SPOT,
How do you define this 'danger', which emanates from 'xtians' ?

Are those Christians 'extremists' perhaps ???

e.g.
Have these 'xtians' burnt any witches lately ???







This below, rather, sounds dangerous, and extreme, to me.....



e.g. #1,

Quote:

"[a respected moslem community spokesman has] called on Australian Muslims to spurn secular democracy and Western notions of moderate Islam... ...[moslems in Australia were told] that democracy is "haram" (forbidden) for Muslims, whose political engagement should be be based purely on Islamic law. "We must adhere to Islam and Islam alone," Mr Hanif [said]"

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/07/australia-members-of-hizb-ut-tahrir-say-country-is-god-forsaken-and-that-muslims-must-shun-secular-a.html



e.g. #2,
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200508/r54561_147958.jpg

Australian Islamic leader defends jihad.
".....Abu Bakr says he does not accept other religions.
"I am telling you that my religion doesn't tolerate other religion. It doesn't tolerate," he said.
"The only one law which needs to spread, it can be here or anywhere else, is Islam." "
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200508/s1430551.htm




e.g. #3,
GOOD AUSTRALIAN BORN MOSLEM SPEAKS TO AN AUSTRALIAN *MOSLEM* AUDIENCE

Use children as troops, says cleric [Sheik Feiz Mohammed]
January 18, 2007
..."We want to have children and offer them as soldiers...Teach them this: There is nothing more beloved to me than wanting to die as a mujahid (holy warrior). Put in their soft, tender hearts the zeal of jihad and a love of martyrdom."
......"The peak, the pinnacle, the crest, the highest point, the pivot, the summit of Islam is jihad," he declares in the film, before denouncing "kaffirs" (non-Muslims).
"Kaffir is the worst word ever written, a sign of infidelity, disbelief, filth, a sign of dirt."
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=94224
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014863.php


Hey SPOT,
Who are the 'Kaffir' that this AUSTRALIAN BORN MOSLEM is speaking of ???

What is a 'Kaffir' SPOT ???




#3,
SAME GOOD MOSLEM SPEAKS TO NON-MOSLEM AUDIENCE - showing his blatant deceit
Fiery Australian cleric claims jihad remarks were misunderstood
"The jihad I speak of is not one of violence,"...
"I don't believe in suicide bombing. I don't believe in violence against others," he said. "We denounce that. This is not Islamic law and it is not moral."
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/01/fiery-australian-cleric-claims-jihad-remarks-were-misunderstood.html

Sheik Feiz declares;
"....violence against others,..This is not Islamic law and it is not moral.";

Sheik Feiz Mohammed's declaration is made in the face of this open declaration in the Koran.....

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 6^th, 2012 at 10:05am:

Big Dave wrote on Aug 6th, 2012 at 9:37am: The thing that gets me is how everything is the blame of the west when muslims start killing one another. It was some past colonial power that left a power vacuum 70 years ago or some western created puppet government. Syria has been one of the most closed of muslim nations for many decades. Everything thing that is happening there is their own doing. Muslims have killed one another for century upon century. Remember the Iran/Iraq War Abu. Didnt he just explain that it wasnt muslims killing each other? Are you getting "middle eastern" mixed up with "muslim"? SOB

SPOT,

And didn't Yadda just explain, that EACH SIDE IN THIS CONFLICT WITHIN SYRIA, considers the other side to be the infidel ???



Quote:

"Conviction is the art of being certain" the sig line of NorthOfNorth, helian. The Alawite moslems [i.e. the Syrian government forces] consider the Sunni moslem faction to be infidels. And the Sunni moslem faction [i.e. the insurgents] consider the Alawite moslems to be infidels.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1333935983/0#0

Big Dave wrote on Aug 6^th, 2012 at 4:49pm:

Islam would have to be the most divided religon on earth. Firstly you have the nations that hate each other. Jordon hates Syria while Iran hates Iraq etc etc. Then you have the races that hate one another. Persians dislike arabs while they all look down on the black muslims. Then you have the tribes (gangs). E.g I was watching a doco on the Australian Army in Afghanistan the other day. They passed through a village and were given fruit while a couple of kms down the road they were being shot at. Then you have the family groups that want to kill each other for whatever silly reason. The only thing they have in common is that they all hate the jews and the USA. Then you go on Aussie Muslim. com and they're calling each other brother and sister. It starts from the ground up (family to country). I can't see how muslims even have a common law (sharia). There isn't any law except the law of the gun. That's where the Taliban comes in.

Hahahaha Catholics mormons jws, scientologists, 7th day adventists, baptists, pentacostals, AOE, AOG, etc etc etc etc

SOB

Quote:

You seem to have made an exception for Islam. Just look at your quotes in the opening post. They are all about reading the most benign possible intent into what Abu did not say.

Liar. You just twist things so it looks like i do.


Quote:

I think the threat of external war and internal or external terrorism is far greater than either.

Then why did you quote my statement about internal conflict?


Quote:

Again, you are reading an aweful lot into what he does not say

you are the one reading what ppl do not say


Quote:

You pretty much begged him to lie to you, and when he refused to do that you made it up instead. That is why you have to put words into his mouth rather than quote him, and refuse to ask for clarification when he gives childish excuses for not offering a straight answer.

I used YOUR words so there would be no confusion. I see you try to confuse it anyway. Yet you never answer any questions you just accuse and distort.


Quote:

You used my questions and got the same non-answer I did

He answered the questions that were asked - they just werent the answers you wanted. He is religious just like you but your religions are different so you think he is more of a threat than you.


Quote:

We have had breakdowns of law and order before. The violence between religious sects did not emerge. They come a far distant second to purely political struggles, and have done for centuries.

No - not in australia we havent had a breakdown on par with how they live in middle eastern countries.


Quote:

No Spot. Again you are reading what you want to read rather than what is actually there. He denounced one side as not being Muslims. However, he even does this for Shites. He claimed it has nothing to do with religion, then went on to complain about how the 'other side' had an incorrect interpretation of Islam. Think about it. It is like a Protestant saying that the problems in Ireland have nothing at all to do with religion because the Catholics are not even religious. You go to absurd lengths to excuse Islam's role in this violence, yet happily make sweeping generalisations about other religions being th cause of violence. Why the double standard?

Blah blah blah blah - what has it got to do with me? Xtians do the same thing they denounce each other as not true xtians. They are biased towards themselves. They give each other "benefit of the doubt". Its all the same. Religion. You ppl always think your religion is the 1 thats different than all the others but they are all the same.

SOB

Avram Horowitz wrote on Aug 6^th, 2012 at 8:42pm:

But you are a pack of desert dogs with no order. You know we could drive you into the sea if we so wish yes? Everyday you should be grateful we showed Arabs mercy when they stupidly attack us.

When they defend themselves and you call it attack?

SOB

freediver wrote on Aug 6^th, 2012 at 8:46pm:

Quote: You seem to be operating under some really ignorant delusion that if a country is Arabic, therefore it's a "muslim" country, ruling by Islam, and representing Islam and that all of its interactions and transactions stem from Islam and have some connection to Islam. This is just ludicrous. Of course. It is all George Bush's fault that Muslims slaughter each other at every opportunity.

Haha way to not address what he said. Why am i butting in? Because you do it to me all the time.

SOB

Quote:

SPOT, How do you define this 'danger', which emanates from 'xtians' ? Are those Christians 'extremists' perhaps ??? e.g. Have these 'xtians' burnt any witches lately ???

Yadda open your friggin eyes mate.

I already defined "the danger". All religion is dangerous IMO because @ any moment they can get violent. All religion has the capacity. However in australia ATM the threat is more of control and forcing ppl to follow their religion. Xtians want religion in schools and we are the only western country that still has the crap (actually we were rid of it for a few short years but an extremist got in power and brought it back). Xtians want to prevent gays getting married Xtians want to stop abortion. That extremist party that popped up a few years ago wanted to burn lesbians @ a stake - remember them? Who were they? Family first?

There are extremists in every religion and they are usually the dangerous ones. Abbott is extremist catholic and it will not be good if he manages to grab the power he so desperately wants (though he wont because ppl see the hate).

Yeah extremist religion promotes hate. You are an extremist yadda. When you dont like something i say you accuse me of being some other religion you hate. You try to insult me. No other religions are worthy not even other sects of your own religion. How do you feel about mormons yadda? Would you like a mormon to be in charge of this country?

SOB

Abu:


Quote:

You've yet to show he slaughtered any Jew.

I don't need to to ask the question Abu. You have told us plenty of stories about Muhammed killing Jews, so it is a bit hypocritical for you to describe the others as Nazi-like. Any Nazi can give you a reason for it that sounds no less valid than the dodgy excuses Muslims give for slaughtering Jews.


Quote:

When you get the concept that Muslims are not slaughtering Muslims in Syria

I get that you decry anyone who doesn't share your version of Islam as not being a Muslim. I also get that you always blame the non 'Muslim' by default. You don't even have to think about it. Your bias does not change the reality.

You don't get to change the meaning of the word Muslim just to suit your blame shifting game.

Spot:


Quote:

Liar. You just twist things so it looks like i do.

No Spot. You twist everything because you are incredibly biased. Like when you outright reject what Abu says because it does not suit the pigeon hole you have put him in.


Quote:

Then why did you quote my statement about internal conflict?

Because that is what I was responding to.


Quote:

I used YOUR words so there would be no confusion.

And you did not get a straight answer, so you made one up on Abu's behalf. This is why you can only talk about what Abu "pretty much said" rather than what he actually said.


Quote:

He answered the questions that were asked - they just werent the answers you wanted.

No he didn't. He answered different questions and gave dodgy excuses for not answering, just like he did in this thread, and for some stupid reason you cannot tell the difference.


Quote:

No - not in australia we havent had a breakdown on par with how they live in middle eastern countries.

Spot has it ever occurred to you that the extent of the breakdown may be the result of all the Muslims wanting to kill Muslims?


Quote:

Blah blah blah blah - what has it got to do with me? Xtians do the same thing they denounce each other as not true xtians.

The Muslims kill each other. That is not the same thing as denouncing. It is fundamentally different - a difference you seem completely oblivious to. Ask Abu what he thinks the appropriate punishment is for these people, then you will have your reason for why they are killing each other.


Quote:

Its all the same. Religion.

Spot it is the killing each other bit that is different. If you weren't so blinded by your desire to put all religious people in the same pigeon hole you would see this.


Quote:

You ppl always think your religion is the 1 thats different than all the others but they are all the same.

How about you stick to what I actually say spot? Did you say "you people" because you know this is not in any way a reasonable response to what I posted?


Quote:

Yadda open your friggin eyes mate. I already defined "the danger".

Most people think that people killing each other is more dangerous than people having religion or 'denouncing' each other. If you weren't so biased this would make more sense to you.


Quote:

All religion is dangerous IMO because @ any moment they can get violent.

;D So why are you so afraid to criticise Abu for wanting to kill apostates etc? You are so afraid you can't even bring yourself to talk about it. As soon as you get close you run away, chanting 'all religions are the same'.

In australia they do not kill each other. In xtianity the penalty for worshipping other gods is death also but aussie xtians dont do that. This country has law and order and so the religions are kept under control.

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed.  (Exodus 22:19 NAB

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.  (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

and this one is a beauty!

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods.  In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully.  If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock.  Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it.  Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God.  That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt.  Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction.  Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you.  He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors.  "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."  (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

But you dont see muslims or xtians following these directives in australia. Except the occasional psycho of course.

SOB

This is how I see most australian muslims spot. They love the freedom and good life that australia offers them. Just ordinary good australians who love the place like us all. They don't want to know anybody outside their communities , families or religon at any deeper level . That's okay because most humans are like that. They'd like the place to be muslim but that aint gonna happen so they just deal with it. They mostly show manners and goodwill to people who are nice to them as Islam teaches. BUT SOME are a concern. Particularly the 2nd gen from tight-knit social groups. Some muslims in oz for personal reasons want to set their communities against the wider australian community. The love to play the victim at every opportunity. They are a danger to australia like no other group is. Several  terrorist disasters have luckily been foiled. Tell me when has a christian group in oz had a terrorist plan foiled?

Quote:

In australia they do not kill each other.

You are having a lot of trouble joining the dots here spot. In Australia they still want to kill each other. Abu wants to kill apostates. This is why he refuses to discuss what he wants and insists that the only thing 'worth discussing' is what he is able to achieve in the short term - which you of course take to mean he does not want the death penalty for apostasy.

Overseas, where they they are able to, the do punish apostasy. And of course as soon as there is a breakdown of law and order and a struggle for power, the various groups who think each other should be stoned to death for apostasy have trouble agreeing on who should get stoned to death.


Quote:

In xtianity the penalty for worshipping other gods is death also but aussie xtians dont do that.

Perhaps you should let the Christians speak for their religion. Contrary to what you say, not all religions are the same, and Islam is definitely unique in the extent to which it equates politics and religion. This is something that both Abu and his critics largely agree on, yet for some reason you refuse to acknowledge this reality. You prefer to cover your ears and chant silly little mantras about all religions being equal.


Quote:

This country has law and order and so the religions are kept under control.

Don't be so naive spot. The reason they are 'under control' is because the people control themselves. If the majority of Australia's religious people actually wanted what you attribute to them, they would have achieved it. The democracy and freedom we have today is a reflection of what Australians want. Why is it you are so willing to ascribe these things to people who don't actually believe it, but when Abu comes right out and says it you refuse to believe it?

Big Dave wrote on Aug 7^th, 2012 at 3:33pm:

This is how I see most australian muslims spot. They love the freedom and good life that australia offers them. Just ordinary good australians who love the place like us all. They don't want to know anybody outside their communities , families or religon at any deeper level . That's okay because most humans are like that. They'd like the place to be muslim but that aint gonna happen so they just deal with it. They mostly show manners and goodwill to people who are nice to them as Islam teaches. BUT SOME are a concern. Particularly the 2nd gen from tight-knit social groups. Some muslims in oz for personal reasons want to set their communities against the wider australian community. The love to play the victim at every opportunity. They are a danger to australia like no other group is. Several  terrorist disasters have luckily been foiled. Tell me when has a christian group in oz had a terrorist plan foiled?

Yup some are bad. Radical muslims are not good. We dont have as lot of those here though ebcause they dont want to be here. Eveyr now and then we get one but they dont last long.

A xtian terrorist group got busted back in the early 80s or late 70s out @ lithgow. Cant remember the name of it - was a book written about it. Bad apples are bad apples and usually they have a religion to blame it on. Thing is xtians want australia to be xtian. Ive even heard idiots say australia is a xtian country (usually ppl full of yank jargon). Hindus want everywhere to be hindu. Even buddhists want everyone to be budhists.

Jews and catholics play the martyr card every  chance they get BTW. Muslims are not alone in that respect.

Anyway we dont know what the heck goes on really. Media only tells us what they want us to know which is 1/2 truths lies and they just dont tell us things they dont feel like telling us. Who knows wth happens.

SOB

Quote:

Yup some are bad.

I see you are not afraid to put it as a vague generalisation. But when you are faced with one you turn and run.


Quote:

Thing is xtians want australia to be xtian. Ive even heard idiots say australia is a xtian country (usually ppl full of yank jargon). Hindus want everywhere to be hindu. Even buddhists want everyone to be budhists.

And Muslims like Abu want to impose Shariah law on people - not exactly the same thing is it spot? But you can't admit this because it undermines your 'all religions are equal' BS.


Quote:

Anyway we dont know what the heck goes on really.

You could start by acknowledging the things that Abu has said and not putting more convenient words in his mouth.

Quote:

Perhaps you should let the Christians speak for their religion.

Its in the book. Its what they believe. Isnt that what you say about the other religions?

The xtian book punishes apostasy with death also. Do you believe your book? Do you believe ppl should be put to death for not being xtian? Obviously you think muslims should be.


Quote:

about all religions being equal.

All religions are equally absurd.

In australia xtianity is more of a threat than islam.

SOB

Quote:

Its in the book. Its what they believe. Isnt that what you say about the other religions?

No. I have never gone to the Koran and attempted to tell Muslims what they believe. Instead I ask Abu what he believes, and hold that to be his belief. I think that makes far more sense. You should try it.


Quote:

In australia xtianity is more of a threat than islam.

Yes I know you 'sussed out' the threat in about 20 seconds. If you cannot even get your head around what Abu wants what position are you in to gauge a far more complex threat?

freediver wrote on Aug 7^th, 2012 at 6:22pm:

Abu wants to kill apostates.

You've made this lying accusation so many times fd, yet never once have you produced a single quote from me stating anything like this.

Either you're clairvoyant, or you're speaking outta yer rectum.

You seriously have no shame.

So what is the proper Islamic punishment for apostasy?


abu_rashid wrote on Oct 27^th, 2008 at 10:02pm:

Quote: Abu would you kill peope like them if the appropriate situation arose - like a Caliphate? Since I'd probably never consider state-executioner as a good career path, I highly doubt it. If however you're insinuating (as you've done enough times before, and been told to stop being so daft) that I might be a vigilante of some kind, then all I can say is get a grip on yourself.

freediver wrote on Aug 7^th, 2012 at 6:22pm:

The democracy and freedom we have today is a reflection of what Australians want. Why is it you are so willing to ascribe these things to people who don't actually believe it, but when Abu comes right out and says it you refuse to believe it?

Mother, why do you have so much trouble taking Muslims at their own word? It is a very typical 'Guardian reader' affliction.

Quote:

No Spot. You twist everything because you are incredibly biased. Like when you outright reject what Abu says because it does not suit the pigeon hole you have put him in.

abu answered my question (which i phrased exactly how you asked it) that he did not have any desire to kill anyone. He said that he wanted ppl to come to islam of their own accord.


Quote:

Because that is what I was responding to.

Do you know the difference between internal and external? You know by internal i meant in australia right?


Quote:

And you did not get a straight answer, so you made one up on Abu's behalf.

He answered the question freediver. He said he had no desire to kill anyone.


Quote:

No he didn't. He answered different questions and gave dodgy excuses for not answering, just like he did in this thread, and for some stupid reason you cannot tell the difference.

I guess if you keep reinterpreting the questions they will never be answered.


Quote:

Spot has it ever occurred to you that the extent of the breakdown may be the result of all the Muslims wanting to kill Muslims?

Is it a "breakdown"? Or has it always been that way? if it is a breakdown - when did it occur?


Quote:

The Muslims kill each other. That is not the same thing as denouncing. It is fundamentally different - a difference you seem completely oblivious to. Ask Abu what he thinks the appropriate punishment is for these people, then you will have your reason for why they are killing each other.

Only in certain  countries. Not in australia. dont you think theres a reason why it happens in certain places and not others? Perhaps it is environmental more than religious? perhaps the religion is just the justification?


Quote:

So why are you so afraid to criticise Abu for wanting to kill apostates etc?

Because he told me he didnt want to kill them and you have a history of distorting what ppl say so i dont believe you.


Quote:

And Muslims like Abu want to impose Shariah law on people

As i have said many times all religions want to impose themselves on ppl. There is no danger of sharia law in australia and abu has said that he is not try8ing to impose it here because he realises theres no way it will happen. Are jews trying to impose their OT laws on  ppl here? No? Why not?

Some muslims in australia (i dont know if abu is one) would like sharia law for themselves and their community but they arent allowed to. that is as far as it goes.


Quote:

So what is the proper Islamic punishment for apostasy?

What is the proper xtian punishment for apostasy?

What is the proper jewish punishment for apostasy?

SOB

Quote:

abu answered my question (which i phrased exactly how you asked it) that he did not have any desire to kill anyone. He said that he wanted ppl to come to islam of their own accord.

He also said that they should get the death penalty if they change their mind. Abu has some very strange ideas about what 'freely choosing' Islam means. He sees no contradiction between believing that there should be no compulsion in religion and stoning apostates to death. He thinks that freely choosing Islam should be encouraged by a system that discriminates against non-Muslims at every opportunity.


Quote:

He answered the question freediver. He said he had no desire to kill anyone.

You are confused again spot. We were actually talking about Abu wanting to impose Shariah law on people. Obviously if you forget what the question is so quickly you will have a bit of trouble noticing if Abu does not actually answer it. No wonder you haven't picked up on that yet.


Quote:

I guess if you keep reinterpreting the questions they will never be answered.

I have given you plenty of direct quotes from Abu. You simply refuse to believe them.


Quote:

There is no danger of sharia law in australia and abu has said that he is not try8ing to impose it here because he realises theres no way it will happen.

Recognising his own impotence merely means he is not completely insane. It does not men he does not want to impose Shariah on people or that he does not support it happening overseas.


Quote:

What is the proper xtian punishment for apostasy? What is the proper jewish punishment for apostasy?

Like I said spot, Islam differs in that it is a complete legal, political, social and cultural system. Abu will agree with me on this. I am not attempting to tell any religious people what they believe. You are. I asked Abu, and Abu believes that apostates should be stoned to death. I bet you that not even Yadda believes that.

freediver wrote on Aug 8^th, 2012 at 8:30am:

Quote: What is the proper xtian punishment for apostasy? What is the proper jewish punishment for apostasy? Like I said spot, Islam differs in that it is a complete legal, political, social and cultural system. Abu will agree with me on this. I am not attempting to tell any religious people what they believe. You are. I asked Abu, and Abu believes that apostates should be stoned to death. I bet you that not even Yadda believes that.

Correct FD.


In concluding my posts, addressing persons who disagreed with my views, i have often stated on OzPol.....



Quote:

"Go your won way. Walk your own path."

Quote:

"You are free to believe whatever you want to believe. And so am i."

The views that i hold about apostasy and ['religious'] belief [....i.e. that 'belief' is a personal matter, a matter of conscience], are distinctly different from what Allah and Mohammed state, as being firm doctrine.

i.e.
That unbelief [rejecting ISLAM] is a crime, against Allah.

And also, it is clear [in the light of what is revealed within ISLAMIC texts], that consequently, moslems believe that they have a lawful sanction from their god, Allah, to punish all criminals, for their 'error'.

In Australia, Australian laws, for the most part, are able to protect us [the broader Australian community] from moslem sectarian violence, directed against perceived 'unbelievers' and apostates.

And our Australian laws also prevent moslems from the violent inclination [many] Australian moslems do harbour, to try impose Sharia law in Australia.

Google;
sharia4australia



But ALL moslems living within Australia DO want to remove Australian law, and if they could, moslems living within Australia, would use force, to impose Sharia law upon all Australians.

Any moslem who would deny this, would be barefacedly lying to you.




+++

ISLAMIC texts are clear.....


"Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' ...."
hadithsunnah/bukhari #004.052.196


"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him;...."
Koran 3.85


"...And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah...Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan:.."
Koran 4.74-76


"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123


"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29





Every moslem is obligated, to engage in the Jihad, in Allah's cause.


What is 'Jihad' ???




"Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #001.002.026

"A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.065
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.080i

freediver wrote on Aug 7^th, 2012 at 9:39pm:

So what is the proper Islamic punishment for apostasy? abu_rashid wrote on Oct 27th, 2008 at 10:02pm: Quote: Abu would you kill peope like them if the appropriate situation arose - like a Caliphate? Since I'd probably never consider state-executioner as a good career path, I highly doubt it. If however you're insinuating (as you've done enough times before, and been told to stop being so daft) that I might be a vigilante of some kind, then all I can say is get a grip on yourself.

Where in that post exactly do I state I want to execute anyone? Please highlight it for me, because excuse my inability to find it, but it really doesn't appear to be there.

Again, I  implore you, if you have even a shred of decency and credibility about you, then try saving the meagre little shred of dignity you might have left and either bring forth your supposed quote from me, or admit to being a lying swine.

Yadda wrote on Aug 8^th, 2012 at 11:12am:

Correct FD. In concluding my posts, addressing persons who disagreed with my views, i have often stated on OzPol..... Quote: "Go your won way. Walk your own path." [quote]"You are free to believe whatever you want to believe. And so am i."

The views that i hold about apostasy and ['religious'] belief [....i.e. that 'belief' is a personal matter, a matter of conscience], are distinctly different from what Allah and Mohammed state, as being firm doctrine.[/quote]

Yadda, the fact is your holy book demands the death penalty for apostasy. And up until a few centuries ago (ie. for about 80% of the entire history of Christianity) Christians were still implementing it.

The only reason you don't implement it today is because the atheists and secularists ousted you from power in the various revolutions. If not for this, you'd still be implementing it as we speak. The idea that Bible believers stopped doing this when the "New Covenant" was revealed is just bollocks and you well know it (or you've never picked up a history book). They continued doing it for almost 2000 years after the so called New Covenant had arrived. You are the only one here attempting to deceive anyone.

If you think Islam is evil for punishing apostates, then you must admit that you worship an evil god, since according to your book, he clearly prescribed this.

"If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God" (Deuteronomy 13:6-11)

Clear as day there Yadda. Even your own wife or daughter, says you must be the first to stone them to death. Is that an evil command? Do you worship an evil being? Or do you think "God turned over a new leaf" and was reformed? He was previously an evil god, but he changed his wicked ways? Strange beliefs indeed.

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 8^th, 2012 at 9:34pm:

Yadda, the fact is your holy book demands the death penalty for apostasy. And up until a few centuries ago (ie. for about 80% of the entire history of Christianity) Christians were still implementing it.

But we do not live a few centuries ago. We live now, here. You live in the past in your head,. But otherwise you are also here now.

What Christianity did a few centuries ago and has now abandoned is no justification for your to maintain, now, that death for apostasy is OK.

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 8^th, 2012 at 9:23pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 7th, 2012 at 9:39pm: So what is the proper Islamic punishment for apostasy? abu_rashid wrote on Oct 27th, 2008 at 10:02pm: Quote: Abu would you kill peope like them if the appropriate situation arose - like a Caliphate? Since I'd probably never consider state-executioner as a good career path, I highly doubt it. If however you're insinuating (as you've done enough times before, and been told to stop being so daft) that I might be a vigilante of some kind, then all I can say is get a grip on yourself. Where in that post exactly do I state I want to execute anyone? Please highlight it for me, because excuse my inability to find it, but it really doesn't appear to be there. Again, I  implore you, if you have even a shred of decency and credibility about you, then try saving the meagre little shred of dignity you might have left and either bring forth your supposed quote from me, or admit to being a lying swine.

Here are some more for you Abu. Have you changed your mind about the death penalty for apostasy? Or do you now need other people to remind you what you believe?


abu_rashid wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 7:44pm:

Quote: What is that again? I think there was some abiguity last time we touched on that. Not from me, perhaps with Malik. Apostasy is a capital offense.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 9^th, 2008 at 7:12pm:

Quote: but you especially object to them talking in a gay way, having their own culture, and riding round on floats with their arse cheeks hanging out? Islamically, someone who'd taken it this far would've apostasised and the Islamic ruling for apostasy would now apply to him.

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 8^th, 2009 at 11:04pm:

Quote: not killing apostates etc As has been mentioned above, death penalty is the issue you should be discussing. Also treason (which is what apostasy is according to Islam) *IS* a capital offence in many 'modern' states.

Apparently it is propaganda to even distinguish between apostasy and treason:


abu_rashid wrote on Sep 17^th, 2011 at 9:09pm:

2) Apostasy (or treason as it's called when not trying to make propaganda) has also been dealt with on numerous occasions, please change the record.

Here is an interesting one where Abu appears to claim that Shites are not apostates. Have you changed your mind Abu?


abu_rashid wrote on Oct 10^th, 2008 at 1:38pm:

So if you have a quote from me claiming Shi'a are apostates, bring it. If you don't, cut the crap.

Soren wrote on Aug 8^th, 2012 at 10:22pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 8th, 2012 at 9:34pm: Yadda, the fact is your holy book demands the death penalty for apostasy. And up until a few centuries ago (ie. for about 80% of the entire history of Christianity) Christians were still implementing it. But we do not live a few centuries ago. We live now, here. You live in the past in your head,. But otherwise you are also here now. What Christianity did a few centuries ago and has now abandoned is no justification for your to maintain, now, that death for apostasy is OK.

Have they actually abandoned it? Or like me, do they just know that in this secular society it is not going to be implemented, and so the issue does not even register for them (just as it does not for me)??

I know you'd like to establish a difference there, but in reality there is none.

freediver wrote on Aug 8^th, 2012 at 10:37pm:

Here are some more for you Abu. Have you changed your mind about the death penalty for apostasy? Or do you now need other people to remind you what you believe? abu_rashid wrote on Oct 9th, 2008 at 7:44pm: Quote: What is that again? I think there was some abiguity last time we touched on that. Not from me, perhaps with Malik. Apostasy is a capital offense.

Still can't find it I see.

Indeed apostasy is a capital offense according to Islamic law, that's not what you've been harping on about though. You've been claiming I personally want to kill Shi'ites.

You're a liar, and I think you know it, that's why you're clutching at straws.

Abu,

Quote:

Indeed apostasy is a capital offense according to Islamic law

Abu,
You are an Islamic person therefore you must agree with killing people for religious reasons?

When will you see that this is morally wrong?

Bobby. wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 12:15am:

Abu, Quote: Indeed apostasy is a capital offense according to Islamic law Abu, You are an Islamic person therefore you must agree with killing people for religious reasons? When will you see that this is morally wrong?

Bobby,

Islamic law is not strictly religious in the sense you believe it to be. The Islamic apostasy law is akin to today's treason laws. It was a law instituted to ensure people did not betray the Islamic state.

It is an affair of state, and therefore does not really impact on my life in the least. I know you live under some delusion that Muslims sit around plotting the shari'ah takeover of Australia, and the beheading of all apostates (Protocols of the elders of Mecca anyone??), but it's pure fantasy. You're a nutcase and nothing more. Even someone like spot, who is totally anti-religious can recognise how sane my general outlook is (I'm sure we would disagree on plenty of specific issues) and how utterly nonsensical and paranoid yours is. That should say something to you.

Tell me Bobby, does Australia's treason law impact on your life? Do you want to run around locking anyone up in your basement and deprive them of their liberty if they happen to show disrespect or disloyalty to Australia? After all that's what Australian law effectively does. Do you want to take the law into your own hands and lock people up in your basement for such things?

Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? Always good to have a quick peek into the mirror before you post your tripe.

Abu,

Your treason argument is a strawman fallacy.

We haven't executed anyone for that since WW2 - I think.

On the other hand people in Iran are killed all the time for apostasy.

I have good reason to believe that you want that here judging by your posts.

Just say it's not true -
you don't believe in killing people for religious reasons.
Tell us that you are a moderate Islamist who wants
peace in the world & that you recognise our secular society
& that's what you want for Australia.

It's that simple Abu.

Quote:

He also said that they should get the death penalty if they change their mind. Abu has some very strange ideas about what 'freely choosing' Islam means. He sees no contradiction between believing that there should be no compulsion in religion and stoning apostates to death. He thinks that freely choosing Islam should be encouraged by a system that discriminates against non-Muslims at every opportunity.

Look in the mirror freediver. you accuse me of telling ppl what they believe yet you do it to him. You say he discriminates against other religions yet you discriminate against his. Just look @ the crap going on  in america (that some want to bring here) where xtians think that "freedom of religion" means freedom to be xtian.


Quote:

You are confused again spot. We were actually talking about Abu wanting to impose Shariah law on people. Obviously if you forget what the question is so quickly you will have a bit of trouble noticing if Abu does not actually answer it. No wonder you haven't picked up on that yet.

You take the friggin history out of the posts and quote a lil bit that says nothing - i dont have time to scroll back pages and pages to see what you are talking about and you know it. Part of your strategy i suppose. He said he didnt want sharia law in australia.


Quote:

I have given you plenty of direct quotes from Abu. You simply refuse to believe them.

Because i know you take things out of context and misrepresent ppl and he denies it. If he denies it he must not think it. You are @ fault here. You seem to think getting some kind of semantic victory is a "win" but its not because if its not the intent in what someone was saying then no amount of semantics will make it true.


Quote:

It does not men he does not want to impose Shariah on people or that he does not support it happening overseas.

I did not ask about overseas. I think if islamic countries want sharia law then they will have it. As he explained they dont and they dont.

SOB

Quote:

The views that i hold about apostasy and ['religious'] belief [....i.e. that 'belief' is a personal matter, a matter of conscience], are distinctly different from what Allah and Mohammed state, as being firm doctrine. i.e. That unbelief [rejecting ISLAM] is a crime, against Allah.

Why are you ignoring my quotes from your book that state the same thing about your god and ppl that worship different ones?


Quote:

In Australia, Australian laws, for the most part, are able to protect us [the broader Australian community] from moslem sectarian violence, directed against perceived 'unbelievers' and apostates.

That is what i have been saying. So now you agree with me? They also keep xtians from imposing their death penalties too but since its been going on longer than 1 generation you like to ignore that.


Quote:

And our Australian laws also prevent moslems from the violent inclination [many] Australian moslems do harbour, to try impose Sharia law in Australia.

I said this also but they are trying to impose it on themselves not everyone. They are not allowed in this country though apparently because the laws conflict with ours.


Quote:

But ALL moslems living within Australia DO want to remove Australian law, and if they could, moslems living within Australia, would use force, to impose Sharia law upon all Australians.

No. They want to impose it on themselves not all australians.


Quote:

Any moslem who would deny this, would be barefacedly lying to you.

Because you believe it so it must be true - or did god tell you?

Xtian texts are clear:


Quote:

Death to Followers of Other Religions     Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed.  (Exodus 22:19 NAB) Kill Nonbelievers     They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.  (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB) Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God     Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods.  In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully.  If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock.  Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it.  Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God.  That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt.  Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction.  Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you.  He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors.  "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."  (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT) Kill Followers of Other Religions.     1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him.  Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.  You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.  And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.  (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)     2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden.  When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death.  (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT) If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. - John 15:6

Quote:

Have they actually abandoned it? Or like me, do they just know that in this secular society it is not going to be implemented, and so the issue does not even register for them (just as it does not for me)??

I have never come across a Christian who wants to bring back death by stoning. The vast majority have genuinely abandoned it and genuinely support religious freedom, democracy, human rights etc.


Quote:

I know you'd like to establish a difference there, but in reality there is none.

You only have to look at the different examples set by Muhammed and Jesus to see how much easier it is for Christians to let the old testament stuff go.


Quote:

Indeed apostasy is a capital offense according to Islamic law, that's not what you've been harping on about though. You've been claiming I personally want to kill Shi'ites.

Well are Shites apostates? Or are you claiming that you personally do not want what Islam commands of you? You can hardly blame people for getting you wrong if you don't give a straight answer.


Quote:

The Islamic apostasy law is akin to today's treason laws. It was a law instituted to ensure people did not betray the Islamic state.

Except that it applies to thought crimes. Only Islam believes apostasy (or being gay) is a betrayal of the state.


Quote:

It is an affair of state, and therefore does not really impact on my life in the least. I know you live under some delusion that Muslims sit around plotting the shari'ah takeover of Australia, and the beheading of all apostates (Protocols of the elders of Mecca anyone??), but it's pure fantasy. You're a nutcase and nothing more. Even someone like spot, who is totally anti-religious can recognise how sane my general outlook is (I'm sure we would disagree on plenty of specific issues) and how utterly nonsensical and paranoid yours is. That should say something to you.

Abu you trot this little strawman out every time. We are asking what you think. We often acknowledge your impotence to actually achieve what you want. That bit we agree with you on.


Quote:

Tell me Bobby, does Australia's treason law impact on your life?

Our treason laws do not cover apostasy, or homosexuality.


Quote:

Look in the mirror freediver. you accuse me of telling ppl what they believe yet you do it to him.

I quote him.


Quote:

You say he discriminates against other religions yet you discriminate against his.

I say he wants to stone people to death for apostasy. So does he.


Quote:

You take the friggin history out of the posts and quote a lil bit that says nothing

I quote the bit where he says apostasy is a capital offence and that it applies even to gay people. Please demonstrate where the context has altered the meaning. All of those quote from Abu I posted above have links.


Quote:

i dont have time to scroll back pages and pages to see what you are talking about and you know it

So instead you insist that you are right, even though you cannot show it? Perhaps you should spend more time thinking and less time posting. You seem to have an aweful lot of time to repeat yourself.


Quote:

He said he didnt want sharia law in australia.

No he did not. Quote him.


Quote:

Because i know you take things out of context and misrepresent ppl and he denies it. If he denies it he must not think it.

He denied something else. It is called a strawman spot. You really should learn to recognise it, other people will be taking advantage of your naivete constantly.


Quote:

You seem to think getting some kind of semantic victory is a "win" but its not because if its not the intent in what someone was saying then no amount of semantics will make it true.

Abu's intention is to conceal the politically unpalatable aspects of his beliefs. He takes advantage of gullible people who want to believe him and will read into his posts what is not actually there.


Quote:

I did not ask about overseas. I think if islamic countries want sharia law then they will have it.

Would that be a good thing or a bad thing? What about all the non-Muslims? What about all the Muslims that Abu considers to be apostates? Contrary to the image Abu attempts to portray, there is no such thing as a homogenous Muslims country. The only thing that varies is the extent to which the people are afraid to be different.


Quote:

No. They want to impose it on themselves not all australians

They want to impose it on everyone. They just recognise their own impotence. Even Abu is telling you this spot. You should learn to tell the difference. Imagine a Nazi telling you he is not capable of slaughtering Jews because Australian law stops him - would you turn around and tell everyone he does not want to slaughter Jews? For someone who claims to oppose this BS you are incredibly blind to it.

Quote:

I quote the bit where he says apostasy is a capital offence and that it applies even to gay people. Please demonstrate where the context has altered the meaning. All of those quote from Abu I posted above have links.

You are quoting his book. I quote your book. He doesnt follow his and you dont follow yours. They both say ppl should be killed for apostasy.


Quote:

Would that be a good thing or a bad thing? What about all the non-Muslims? What about all the Muslims that Abu considers to be apostates? Contrary to the image Abu attempts to portray, there is no such thing as a homogenous Muslims country. The only thing that varies is the extent to which the people are afraid to be different.

I wasnt talking about abu i was talking about muslims in general. In australia when they ask for sharia law they are talking about for themselves not anyone else. In countries where it is allowed there are groups that choose to live by sharia law but the countries themselves reject having it for everyone.


Quote:

They want to impose it on everyone. They just recognise their own impotence.

That is not what they say so can you back that up?


Quote:

Even Abu is telling you this spot.

Abu is one person.

Not that it matters - they cant do it and arent trying so why be so afraid all the time?


Quote:

For someone who claims to oppose this BS you are incredibly blind to it.

\

Extremists from all religions are dangerous and scary. However normal muslims are peaceful and dont want to do the stuff you are saying.

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 11:12am:

I wasnt talking about abu i was talking about muslims in general. In australia when they ask for sharia law they are talking about for themselves not anyone else. SOB

Quote:

The Australian federation of Islamic councls want muslims to be able to marry,divorce,and conduct financial transactions under the principles of Sharia law. In a submission to federal parliament the federation has asked for the change. It argues that all Australians would benefit if Islamic laws were adopted as mainistream legislation

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-05-17/muslim-group-wants-sharia-law-in-australia/2717096

Are you suggesting it is ok to have parts of society living under a separarte religious legal system spot ?

Have you heard of the one law for all campaign to get rid of the sharia courts in the UK?

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 12:38pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 11:12am: I wasnt talking about abu i was talking about muslims in general. In australia when they ask for sharia law they are talking about for themselves not anyone else. SOB Quote: The Australian federation of Islamic councls want muslims to be able to marry,divorce,and conduct financial transactions under the principles of Sharia law. In a submission to federal parliament the federation has asked for the change. It argues that all Australians would benefit if Islamic laws were adopted as mainistream legislation http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-05-17/muslim-group-wants-sharia-law-in-australia/2717096 Are you suggesting it is ok to have parts of society living under a separarte religious legal system spot ? Have you heard of the one law for all campaign to get rid of the sharia courts in the UK?

Did you read the thread? Did you read what i said? Geez. I said that in australia the muslims that want sharia law want it for themselves (muslims) not everyone in australia. I also pointed out that the government turned this down and said no because it conflicts with our laws. So it isnt going to happen.

SOB

Quote:

You are quoting his book. I quote your book.

I am not quoting the Koran. I am quoting Abu. You really need to try to pay attention to what is going on spot. I have pointed this out to you before.


Quote:

He doesnt follow his and you dont follow yours.

Actually he does, quite literally. Ask him, if you aren't afraid of the truth.


Quote:

I wasnt talking about abu i was talking about muslims in general.

Yes Spot I realise you take intellectual shelter in generalisations because it allows you to make it up as you go along rather than face reality.


Quote:

That is not what they say so can you back that up?

What do you think Abu has saying in this thread? In his very first post he point blank refused to discuss what he wants and insisted the only thing we should discuss is what he is able to achieve. I would quote him bu you would accuse me of making it up then insist the meaning would be different if I quoted the entire thread.


Quote:

Abu is one person.

Falah is another. Lestat is another. Malik is another. There have been others also.


Quote:

Not that it matters - they cant do it and arent trying so why be so afraid all the time?

This is the same strawman that Abu trots out. I am just trying to get you to face reality.


Quote:

Extremists from all religions are dangerous and scary. However normal muslims are peaceful and dont want to do the stuff you are saying.

How can you tell the difference? Even when Abu says he believes in the death penalty for apostasy and destroying freedom and democracy yuou refuse to believe it. All he has to do is point out his impotence to achieve his goals and you take this to mean they are not his goals. I have never seen anyone so easy to fool.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 12:49pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 12:38pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 11:12am: I wasnt talking about abu i was talking about muslims in general. In australia when they ask for sharia law they are talking about for themselves not anyone else. SOB Quote: The Australian federation of Islamic councls want muslims to be able to marry,divorce,and conduct financial transactions under the principles of Sharia law. In a submission to federal parliament the federation has asked for the change. It argues that all Australians would benefit if Islamic laws were adopted as mainistream legislation http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-05-17/muslim-group-wants-sharia-law-in-australia/2717096 Are you suggesting it is ok to have parts of society living under a separarte religious legal system spot ? Have you heard of the one law for all campaign to get rid of the sharia courts in the UK? Did you read the thread? Did you read what i said? Geez. I said that in australia the muslims that want sharia law want it for themselves (muslims) not everyone in australia. I also pointed out that the government turned this down and said no because it conflicts with our laws. So it isnt going to happen. SOB

It is already happening with polygamy spot, i know a muslim couple the wife remarried recently yet her husband is already married and spends about half of the week with his other wife,dont worry cantrelink is supporting both families.


Quote:

Members of Sydney's Islamic community belive polygamous marriages should be legalised to protect the rights of women. Sheikh Khalil Chami of the Islamic welfare centre in Lakemba aid polygamous marriages existed in Australia and should be recognised Sheikh Chami said he was asked almost weekly to conduct polygamous religious ceremonies, while he declined he said many other sheikh's performed them

http://www.theage.com.au/national/legalise-polygamous-unions-muslim-leaders-20080624-2w68.html

Do you like how they claim it protects the rights of women,Polygamy is illegal if they made it legal then it would protect the rights of the men who would otherwise be thrown in jail for breaking our laws.

If we allow musims to marry according to sharia law would that also allow child brides that are rampant in Islamic countries?

Lots of muslims calling for sharia law in Australia are you deaf dumb and blind spot?

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 1:12pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 12:49pm: Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 12:38pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 11:12am: I wasnt talking about abu i was talking about muslims in general. In australia when they ask for sharia law they are talking about for themselves not anyone else. SOB Quote: The Australian federation of Islamic councls want muslims to be able to marry,divorce,and conduct financial transactions under the principles of Sharia law. In a submission to federal parliament the federation has asked for the change. It argues that all Australians would benefit if Islamic laws were adopted as mainistream legislation http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-05-17/muslim-group-wants-sharia-law-in-australia/2717096 Are you suggesting it is ok to have parts of society living under a separarte religious legal system spot ? Have you heard of the one law for all campaign to get rid of the sharia courts in the UK? Did you read the thread? Did you read what i said? Geez. I said that in australia the muslims that want sharia law want it for themselves (muslims) not everyone in australia. I also pointed out that the government turned this down and said no because it conflicts with our laws. So it isnt going to happen. SOB It is already happening with polygamy spot, i know a muslim couple the wife remarried recently yet her husband is already married and spends about half of the week with his other wife,dont worry cantrelink is supporting both families. [quote]Members of Sydney's Islamic community belive polygamous marriages should be legalised to protect the rights of women. Sheikh Khalil Chami of the Islamic welfare centre in Lakemba aid polygamous marriages existed in Australia and should be recognised Sheikh Chami said he was asked almost weekly to conduct polygamous religious ceremonies, while he declined he said many other sheikh's performed them

http://www.theage.com.au/national/legalise-polygamous-unions-muslim-leaders-20080624-2w68.html

Do you like how they claim it protects the rights of women,Polygamy is illegal if they made it legal then it would protect the rights of the men who would otherwise be thrown in jail for breaking our laws.

If we allow musims to marry according to sharia law would that also allow child brides that are rampant in Islamic countries?

Lots of muslims calling for sharia law in Australia are you deaf dumb and blind spot?[/quote]

sharia law is not polygamy.

Also the muslims will follow their own islamic laws within their groups and within australian law - they just cant have sharia law legally. Are you dstupid and blind baron?

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 1:31pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 1:12pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 12:49pm: Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 12:38pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 11:12am: I wasnt talking about abu i was talking about muslims in general. In australia when they ask for sharia law they are talking about for themselves not anyone else. SOB Quote: The Australian federation of Islamic councls want muslims to be able to marry,divorce,and conduct financial transactions under the principles of Sharia law. In a submission to federal parliament the federation has asked for the change. It argues that all Australians would benefit if Islamic laws were adopted as mainistream legislation http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-05-17/muslim-group-wants-sharia-law-in-australia/2717096 Are you suggesting it is ok to have parts of society living under a separarte religious legal system spot ? Have you heard of the one law for all campaign to get rid of the sharia courts in the UK? Did you read the thread? Did you read what i said? Geez. I said that in australia the muslims that want sharia law want it for themselves (muslims) not everyone in australia. I also pointed out that the government turned this down and said no because it conflicts with our laws. So it isnt going to happen. SOB It is already happening with polygamy spot, i know a muslim couple the wife remarried recently yet her husband is already married and spends about half of the week with his other wife,dont worry cantrelink is supporting both families. [quote]Members of Sydney's Islamic community belive polygamous marriages should be legalised to protect the rights of women. Sheikh Khalil Chami of the Islamic welfare centre in Lakemba aid polygamous marriages existed in Australia and should be recognised Sheikh Chami said he was asked almost weekly to conduct polygamous religious ceremonies, while he declined he said many other sheikh's performed them http://www.theage.com.au/national/legalise-polygamous-unions-muslim-leaders-20080624-2w68.html Do you like how they claim it protects the rights of women,Polygamy is illegal if they made it legal then it would protect the rights of the men who would otherwise be thrown in jail for breaking our laws. If we allow musims to marry according to sharia law would that also allow child brides that are rampant in Islamic countries? Lots of muslims calling for sharia law in Australia are you deaf dumb and blind spot?

sharia law is not polygamy.

Also the muslims will follow their own islamic laws within their groups and within australian law - they just cant have sharia law legally. Are you dstupid and blind baron?

SOB[/quote]

Islamic law allows a man to have 4 wives, sex slaves are halal for muslim men as well.

Polygamy exists with the Islamic community in Australia are they following Australian law or gods law with that?

Quote:

sharia law is not polygamy.

What does that mean spot?

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 1:40pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 1:31pm: Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 1:12pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 12:49pm: Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 12:38pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 11:12am: I wasnt talking about abu i was talking about muslims in general. In australia when they ask for sharia law they are talking about for themselves not anyone else. SOB Quote: The Australian federation of Islamic councls want muslims to be able to marry,divorce,and conduct financial transactions under the principles of Sharia law. In a submission to federal parliament the federation has asked for the change. It argues that all Australians would benefit if Islamic laws were adopted as mainistream legislation http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-05-17/muslim-group-wants-sharia-law-in-australia/2717096 Are you suggesting it is ok to have parts of society living under a separarte religious legal system spot ? Have you heard of the one law for all campaign to get rid of the sharia courts in the UK? Did you read the thread? Did you read what i said? Geez. I said that in australia the muslims that want sharia law want it for themselves (muslims) not everyone in australia. I also pointed out that the government turned this down and said no because it conflicts with our laws. So it isnt going to happen. SOB It is already happening with polygamy spot, i know a muslim couple the wife remarried recently yet her husband is already married and spends about half of the week with his other wife,dont worry cantrelink is supporting both families. [quote]Members of Sydney's Islamic community belive polygamous marriages should be legalised to protect the rights of women. Sheikh Khalil Chami of the Islamic welfare centre in Lakemba aid polygamous marriages existed in Australia and should be recognised Sheikh Chami said he was asked almost weekly to conduct polygamous religious ceremonies, while he declined he said many other sheikh's performed them http://www.theage.com.au/national/legalise-polygamous-unions-muslim-leaders-20080624-2w68.html Do you like how they claim it protects the rights of women,Polygamy is illegal if they made it legal then it would protect the rights of the men who would otherwise be thrown in jail for breaking our laws. If we allow musims to marry according to sharia law would that also allow child brides that are rampant in Islamic countries? Lots of muslims calling for sharia law in Australia are you deaf dumb and blind spot? sharia law is not polygamy. Also the muslims will follow their own islamic laws within their groups and within australian law - they just cant have sharia law legally. Are you dstupid and blind baron? SOB

Islamic law allows a man to have 4 wives, sex slaves are halal for muslim men as well.

Polygamy exists with the Islamic community in Australia are they following Australian law or gods law with that?

[/quote]

Polygamy is not the sum total of sharia law. You are trying to make out that it is. Polygamy is not confined just to islamics in australia either. Did you see that thing on TV the other night? There are lots of polygamists in australia. Thing is they arent REALLY polygamists because they are only actually married once. What they are is swingers.

SOB

freediver wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 1:46pm:

Quote: sharia law is not polygamy. What does that mean spot?

You know what it means. It means sharia law is not polygamy, Sharia law is a lot more than that. Also - guess what? Polygamy isnt just an islamic thing either - mormons are into it too and prolly other xtian sects.

SOB

Bobby. wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 12:43am:

Abu, Your treason argument is a strawman fallacy. We haven't executed anyone for that since WW2 - I think. On the other hand people in Iran are killed all the time for apostasy. I have good reason to believe that you want that here judging by your posts. Just say it's not true - you don't believe in killing people for religious reasons. Tell us that you are a moderate Islamist who wants peace in the world & that you recognise our secular society & that's what you want for Australia. It's that simple Abu.

bump to Abu

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 2:54pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 1:40pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 1:31pm: Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 1:12pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 12:49pm: Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 12:38pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 11:12am: I wasnt talking about abu i was talking about muslims in general. In australia when they ask for sharia law they are talking about for themselves not anyone else. SOB Quote: The Australian federation of Islamic councls want muslims to be able to marry,divorce,and conduct financial transactions under the principles of Sharia law. In a submission to federal parliament the federation has asked for the change. It argues that all Australians would benefit if Islamic laws were adopted as mainistream legislation http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-05-17/muslim-group-wants-sharia-law-in-australia/2717096 Are you suggesting it is ok to have parts of society living under a separarte religious legal system spot ? Have you heard of the one law for all campaign to get rid of the sharia courts in the UK? Did you read the thread? Did you read what i said? Geez. I said that in australia the muslims that want sharia law want it for themselves (muslims) not everyone in australia. I also pointed out that the government turned this down and said no because it conflicts with our laws. So it isnt going to happen. SOB It is already happening with polygamy spot, i know a muslim couple the wife remarried recently yet her husband is already married and spends about half of the week with his other wife,dont worry cantrelink is supporting both families. [quote]Members of Sydney's Islamic community belive polygamous marriages should be legalised to protect the rights of women. Sheikh Khalil Chami of the Islamic welfare centre in Lakemba aid polygamous marriages existed in Australia and should be recognised Sheikh Chami said he was asked almost weekly to conduct polygamous religious ceremonies, while he declined he said many other sheikh's performed them http://www.theage.com.au/national/legalise-polygamous-unions-muslim-leaders-20080624-2w68.html Do you like how they claim it protects the rights of women,Polygamy is illegal if they made it legal then it would protect the rights of the men who would otherwise be thrown in jail for breaking our laws. If we allow musims to marry according to sharia law would that also allow child brides that are rampant in Islamic countries? Lots of muslims calling for sharia law in Australia are you deaf dumb and blind spot? sharia law is not polygamy. Also the muslims will follow their own islamic laws within their groups and within australian law - they just cant have sharia law legally. Are you dstupid and blind baron? SOB Islamic law allows a man to have 4 wives, sex slaves are halal for muslim men as well. Polygamy exists with the Islamic community in Australia are they following Australian law or gods law with that?

Polygamy is not the sum total of sharia law. You are trying to make out that it is. Polygamy is not confined just to islamics in australia either. Did you see that thing on TV the other night? There are lots of polygamists in australia. Thing is they arent REALLY polygamists because they are only actually married once. What they are is swingers.

SOB
[/quote]

It was the Australian Federation of Islamic councils that asked the government to consider aspects of sharia law with marriage and divorce along with financial transactions, they already have halal meat which is slaughtered in accordance with gods laws.
The AFIC are a political lobby group representing Islam in Australia, muslims are around 2% of the population and they are already asking us to change our laws.

Islamic law says a muslim man can have 4 wives,Australian law says only 1.
Islamic law says it is halal to divorce by sms text message,Australian law makes you give half your stuff away.
There is a new barbie doll called divorced barbie,she comes with half of kens belongings, there is non e of this halves stuff when getting Islamic divorce.

Which  religions are asking us to violate our constitution to accomodate their religious laws?

Are you really trying to compare consenting swingers to religious polygamy where the permission of the first wife is not required to take a second-third or 4th wife?
Do you think it is somewhat retarded to compare consenting swingers to a polygamous marriage where the first wife did not want her husband to take a second wife?


Quote:

With regard to the permission and approval of the first wife for a plural marriagethis is not a condition and the husband does not have to seek the permission of his first wif to marry a second. Source-http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/13702/second%20wife

Bobby. wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 4:10pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 12:43am: Abu, Your treason argument is a strawman fallacy. We haven't executed anyone for that since WW2 - I think. On the other hand people in Iran are killed all the time for apostasy. I have good reason to believe that you want that here judging by your posts. Just say it's not true - you don't believe in killing people for religious reasons. Tell us that you are a moderate Islamist who wants peace in the world & that you recognise our secular society & that's what you want for Australia. It's that simple Abu. bump to Abu

Abu
Can you explain why Jane Fonda was not executed for helping the enemy in the Vietnam war, they called her hanoi Jane why is she still alive?

John Lindh was caught fighting with the Taliban why is he still alive should he be executed for treason?

The death penalty for apostasy is really a death penalty for thought crimes.
http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/811/apostasy

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 5:06pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 2:54pm: Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 1:40pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 1:31pm: Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 1:12pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 12:49pm: Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 12:38pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 11:12am: I wasnt talking about abu i was talking about muslims in general. In australia when they ask for sharia law they are talking about for themselves not anyone else. SOB Quote: The Australian federation of Islamic councls want muslims to be able to marry,divorce,and conduct financial transactions under the principles of Sharia law. In a submission to federal parliament the federation has asked for the change. It argues that all Australians would benefit if Islamic laws were adopted as mainistream legislation http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-05-17/muslim-group-wants-sharia-law-in-australia/2717096 Are you suggesting it is ok to have parts of society living under a separarte religious legal system spot ? Have you heard of the one law for all campaign to get rid of the sharia courts in the UK? Did you read the thread? Did you read what i said? Geez. I said that in australia the muslims that want sharia law want it for themselves (muslims) not everyone in australia. I also pointed out that the government turned this down and said no because it conflicts with our laws. So it isnt going to happen. SOB It is already happening with polygamy spot, i know a muslim couple the wife remarried recently yet her husband is already married and spends about half of the week with his other wife,dont worry cantrelink is supporting both families. [quote]Members of Sydney's Islamic community belive polygamous marriages should be legalised to protect the rights of women. Sheikh Khalil Chami of the Islamic welfare centre in Lakemba aid polygamous marriages existed in Australia and should be recognised Sheikh Chami said he was asked almost weekly to conduct polygamous religious ceremonies, while he declined he said many other sheikh's performed them http://www.theage.com.au/national/legalise-polygamous-unions-muslim-leaders-20080624-2w68.html Do you like how they claim it protects the rights of women,Polygamy is illegal if they made it legal then it would protect the rights of the men who would otherwise be thrown in jail for breaking our laws. If we allow musims to marry according to sharia law would that also allow child brides that are rampant in Islamic countries? Lots of muslims calling for sharia law in Australia are you deaf dumb and blind spot? sharia law is not polygamy. Also the muslims will follow their own islamic laws within their groups and within australian law - they just cant have sharia law legally. Are you dstupid and blind baron? SOB Islamic law allows a man to have 4 wives, sex slaves are halal for muslim men as well. Polygamy exists with the Islamic community in Australia are they following Australian law or gods law with that? Polygamy is not the sum total of sharia law. You are trying to make out that it is. Polygamy is not confined just to islamics in australia either. Did you see that thing on TV the other night? There are lots of polygamists in australia. Thing is they arent REALLY polygamists because they are only actually married once. What they are is swingers. SOB

It was the Australian Federation of Islamic councils that asked the government to consider aspects of sharia law with marriage and divorce along with financial transactions, they already have halal meat which is slaughtered in accordance with gods laws.
The AFIC are a political lobby group representing Islam in Australia, muslims are around 2% of the population and they are already asking us to change our laws.

Islamic law says a muslim man can have 4 wives,Australian law says only 1.
Islamic law says it is halal to divorce by sms text message,Australian law makes you give half your stuff away.
There is a new barbie doll called divorced barbie,she comes with half of kens belongings, there is non e of this halves stuff when getting Islamic divorce.

Which  religions are asking us to violate our constitution to accomodate their religious laws?

Are you really trying to compare consenting swingers to religious polygamy where the permission of the first wife is not required to take a second-third or 4th wife?
Do you think it is somewhat retarded to compare consenting swingers to a polygamous marriage where the first wife did not want her husband to take a second wife?


Quote:

With regard to the permission and approval of the first wife for a plural marriagethis is not a condition and the husband does not have to seek the permission of his first wif to marry a second. Source-http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/13702/second%20wife

[/quote]

Its a fairy story mate. Its not going to happen. Australian government is not going to do it. Not gunna happen. Got that? On the other hand the xtians keep blocking gays from having equal rights.

As for sharia law as i have said several times already the muslims that want it want it for themselves. Overall. Polygamy may be a small part but they arent getting that either.

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 5:13pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 5:06pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 2:54pm: Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 1:40pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 1:31pm: Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 1:12pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 12:49pm: Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 12:38pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 11:12am: I wasnt talking about abu i was talking about muslims in general. In australia when they ask for sharia law they are talking about for themselves not anyone else. SOB Quote: The Australian federation of Islamic councls want muslims to be able to marry,divorce,and conduct financial transactions under the principles of Sharia law. In a submission to federal parliament the federation has asked for the change. It argues that all Australians would benefit if Islamic laws were adopted as mainistream legislation http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-05-17/muslim-group-wants-sharia-law-in-australia/2717096 Are you suggesting it is ok to have parts of society living under a separarte religious legal system spot ? Have you heard of the one law for all campaign to get rid of the sharia courts in the UK? Did you read the thread? Did you read what i said? Geez. I said that in australia the muslims that want sharia law want it for themselves (muslims) not everyone in australia. I also pointed out that the government turned this down and said no because it conflicts with our laws. So it isnt going to happen. SOB It is already happening with polygamy spot, i know a muslim couple the wife remarried recently yet her husband is already married and spends about half of the week with his other wife,dont worry cantrelink is supporting both families. [quote]Members of Sydney's Islamic community belive polygamous marriages should be legalised to protect the rights of women. Sheikh Khalil Chami of the Islamic welfare centre in Lakemba aid polygamous marriages existed in Australia and should be recognised Sheikh Chami said he was asked almost weekly to conduct polygamous religious ceremonies, while he declined he said many other sheikh's performed them http://www.theage.com.au/national/legalise-polygamous-unions-muslim-leaders-20080624-2w68.html Do you like how they claim it protects the rights of women,Polygamy is illegal if they made it legal then it would protect the rights of the men who would otherwise be thrown in jail for breaking our laws. If we allow musims to marry according to sharia law would that also allow child brides that are rampant in Islamic countries? Lots of muslims calling for sharia law in Australia are you deaf dumb and blind spot? sharia law is not polygamy. Also the muslims will follow their own islamic laws within their groups and within australian law - they just cant have sharia law legally. Are you dstupid and blind baron? SOB Islamic law allows a man to have 4 wives, sex slaves are halal for muslim men as well. Polygamy exists with the Islamic community in Australia are they following Australian law or gods law with that? Polygamy is not the sum total of sharia law. You are trying to make out that it is. Polygamy is not confined just to islamics in australia either. Did you see that thing on TV the other night? There are lots of polygamists in australia. Thing is they arent REALLY polygamists because they are only actually married once. What they are is swingers. SOB It was the Australian Federation of Islamic councils that asked the government to consider aspects of sharia law with marriage and divorce along with financial transactions, they already have halal meat which is slaughtered in accordance with gods laws. The AFIC are a political lobby group representing Islam in Australia, muslims are around 2% of the population and they are already asking us to change our laws. Islamic law says a muslim man can have 4 wives,Australian law says only 1. Islamic law says it is halal to divorce by sms text message,Australian law makes you give half your stuff away. There is a new barbie doll called divorced barbie,she comes with half of kens belongings, there is non e of this halves stuff when getting Islamic divorce. Which  religions are asking us to violate our constitution to accomodate their religious laws? Are you really trying to compare consenting swingers to religious polygamy where the permission of the first wife is not required to take a second-third or 4th wife? Do you think it is somewhat retarded to compare consenting swingers to a polygamous marriage where the first wife did not want her husband to take a second wife? [quote]With regard to the permission and approval of the first wife for a plural marriagethis is not a condition and the husband does not have to seek the permission of his first wif to marry a second. Source-http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/13702/second%20wife

[/quote]

Its a fairy story mate. Its not going to happen. Australian government is not going to do it. Not gunna happen. Got that? On the other hand the xtians keep blocking gays from having equal rights.

As for sharia law as i have said several times already the muslims that want it want it for themselves. Overall. Polygamy may be a small part but they arent getting that either.

SOB[/quote]

We already have muslims living in polygamous marriages in Australia that is a fact,they have halal meat which is sharia law.

The AFIC which is a political lobbying group representing Islam in Australia have already asked for sharia law despite being less than 2% of our population,did the hindu ever ask us to stop eating beef?

Yes the gays have it so bad here we can see the persecution they suffer every year at the mardi gras, they chop your head off for homosexuality in Saudi Arabia and Ahmadinejad did say there are no gays in Iran, they hang them.
I wonder why gays like you stick up for a belief that kills homosexuals,apostates,adulterers,blasphemrs and witches.
http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/38622/homosexual

Bobby. wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 4:10pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 12:43am: Abu, Your treason argument is a strawman fallacy. We haven't executed anyone for that since WW2 - I think. On the other hand people in Iran are killed all the time for apostasy. I have good reason to believe that you want that here judging by your posts. Just say it's not true - you don't believe in killing people for religious reasons. Tell us that you are a moderate Islamist who wants peace in the world & that you recognise our secular society & that's what you want for Australia. It's that simple Abu. bump to Abu

bump to Abu again

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 8^th, 2012 at 9:34pm:

Yadda, the fact is your holy book demands the death penalty for apostasy. And up until a few centuries ago (ie. for about 80% of the entire history of Christianity) Christians were still implementing it. The only reason you don't implement it today is because the atheists and secularists ousted you from power in the various revolutions. If not for this, you'd still be implementing it as we speak. The idea that Bible believers stopped doing this when the "New Covenant" was revealed is just bollocks and you well know it (or you've never picked up a history book). They continued doing it for almost 2000 years after the so called New Covenant had arrived. You are the only one here attempting to deceive anyone. If you think Islam is evil for punishing apostates, then you must admit that you worship an evil god, since according to your book, he clearly prescribed this. "If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God" (Deuteronomy 13:6-11) Clear as day there Yadda. Even your own wife or daughter, says you must be the first to stone them to death. Is that an evil command? Do you worship an evil being? Or do you think "God turned over a new leaf" and was reformed? He was previously an evil god, but he changed his wicked ways? Strange beliefs indeed.

Abu,

You are very mistaken.



Abu,

You said;
"Yadda, the fact is your holy book demands the death penalty for apostasy."

And, .....YES IT DOES.

BUT, AGAINST WHOM, AND BY WHOM, DID MY GOD PRESCRIBE THIS PUNISHMENT ???

To whom did the penalty in Deuteronomy 13:6-11 apply ???

Was it for the Incas, of South America ?
Was it for the Chinese ?
Was it for the Inuit of North America ?
Was it for the ancient Greeks ?
Was it for the ancient Persians ?

No.


Abu,

Which people are recorded as saying this [below] ??? [....as witness, to embracing a covenant]

"...
And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do...."


Exodus 19:5-8




Abu,

Q.
Why do you quote the terms of an agreement between God, and an ancient people [who God redeemed from Egypt, around 1,400 BC],
BUT THEN,
why do you omit the verses which reveal and confirm the identity of the two 'parties', to whom this agreement applied ?

A.
Because you are a moslem.
And, because it suits your own moslem 'religious narrative', to try to establish that it is legitimate in the 21st century, for Christians to kill apostates, on the basis of Old Testament law, so that moslems can say to the world; "Look, yes, we moslems can kill people who leave ISLAM, but it is also religiously legitimate for Christians to kill apostates, but they have let that legitimate religious practice slip. But we moslem have not, because we moslems obey God, but the Christians do not."

And tht, is codswallop!


And why are you, falsely, trying to 'project' that this ancient covenant [confirmed between two parties, around 1,400 BC], must apply to people like myself, when clearly i could not have been a party to that ancient covenant ?


p.s.
And, there are probably 10's of thousands of moslem apostates being killed every year, around the world.
It is just that the Western mainstream media do not 'identify' these people as being killed as moslem apostates [killed by other 'rightly guided' moslems].
Those killed are typically, victims of 'honour killings', and are other individuals who may be 'lawfully' killed for their criticism of Jihadi violence, or individuals who are 'lawfully' killed for criticising other aspects of local ISLAMIC 'culture'.
I am sure that 10's of thousands of these moslem apostates that being killed every year, around the world.


e.g.
UK
'Revealed: rising toll of deaths before dishonour'
18 Jun 2007
"......A Sunday Telegraph investigation has established that honour killings are increasing rapidly in Britain."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1554764/Revealed-rising-toll-of-deaths-before-dishonour.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-462342/Honour-killing-sister-breaks-silence.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/honour-killings-father-uncle-brother-killer-453432.html


In these 'honour' killing incidents, many of the perpetrators actually claim to be motivated to kill, because this 'good deed' [of killing the 'unbeliever'], is encouraged by ISLAM / Sharia.

And yet why do we 'unbelievers', so willingly discount such candid admissions, when they are made by moslems themselves?

Why?

Because we are a 'sick' ppl, we are a people who have come to hate TRUTH.

Because today, we are a ppl who turn away from the TRUTH, when it confronts us.

'HONOR' KILLING, FOR GOD
"A Muslim father accused of murdering his daughter in a so-called "honor killing"......"
August 6, 2008
http://www.nypost.com/seven/08062008/news/nationalnews/honor_killing_for_god_123236.htm





Despite the insistent denials [from spokesmen for moslem communities], it is clear, that these [unstoppable!] 'honour' killings [of those who 'insult' ISLAM] are inspired, and motivated, by real ISLAM, and motivated, by real Sharia.

This violence against apostates, is a form of intimidation, of moslems, BY moslems.

And is designed to instil a feeling of terror, and fear of ['respect'!! for] ISLAM, within those moslem communities, that are now ensconced within our own Western communities.


Allah's Apostle said,
"I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy)...."
hadith/bukhari #004.052.220



There is no escape, for those who tolerate ISLAM.

If you allow a moslem community into a non-moslem host country, you will also get, some level of the imposition of Sharia within the moslem community, and a consequential measure of violence and intimidation of that community, which Sharia law 'legitimises'.

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 8^th, 2012 at 11:55pm:

Soren wrote on Aug 8th, 2012 at 10:22pm: abu_rashid wrote on Aug 8th, 2012 at 9:34pm: Yadda, the fact is your holy book demands the death penalty for apostasy. And up until a few centuries ago (ie. for about 80% of the entire history of Christianity) Christians were still implementing it. But we do not live a few centuries ago. We live now, here. You live in the past in your head,. But otherwise you are also here now. What Christianity did a few centuries ago and has now abandoned is no justification for your to maintain, now, that death for apostasy is OK. Have they actually abandoned it? Or like me, do they just know that in this secular society it is not going to be implemented, and so the issue does not even register for them (just as it does not for me)?? I know you'd like to establish a difference there, but in reality there is none.

Abu,

Yes there is.

There is a gaping chasm, in the difference between the morality expressed in Biblical [OT] law, and the morality expressed in ISLAMIC law.

No matter how hard you stamp your feet on the ground Abu, and insist that a moral equivalence does exist,
.....there is absolutely no moral equivalence between Christianity and ISLAM.

Clearly, you desperately wish for there to be a moral equivalence between Christianity and ISLAM, so as to underpin your own moral position, as a moslem, a moral position which is dictated to you by ISLAM, and confirmed by ISLAMIC texts.

The problem is, that there is no moral equivalence between Christianity and ISLAM.

e.g.
Exodus 23:4
If thou meet thine enemy's ox or his ass going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again.

Leviticus 19:18
.....thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 19:34
...the stranger that dwelleth with you....,thou shalt love him as thyself...[/b]

Deuteronomy 10:17-19
...the LORD your God... loveth the stranger, ...Love ye therefore the stranger.....

Abu,
Where are the Koran verses, which are comparable with those last three OT verses, which exhort the Hebrews [i.e. Gods people] to love all men ???

There are no comparable verses, within the Koran, expressing God's love, for all mankind.

Because [as you well know Abu] Allah's love is reserved EXCLUSIVELY, for moslems alone.





Judaism and Christianity says to mankind = = "Worship God, and love your fellow man, as yourself."

ISLAM  says to mankind = = "Worship Allah, or we will steal your lands and your property, and we will steal your wives and your children, and then enslave or kill you!"


cited.....



Quote:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar:     Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform all that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/002-sbt.php#001.002.025


"Or have they gods that can guard them from Us? They have no power to aid themselves, nor can they be defended from Us.
...See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"
Koran 21:43-44


"And He made you [moslems] heirs to their [non-moslem] land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things."
Koran 33:27

and;

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29




Abu,

Where is the moral equivalence between Judaism [and Christianity] and ISLAM, in the comparison of how disbelievers are to be treated by >>ANCIENT << Judaism [and Christianity], and ISLAM, as is plainly described, in the OT Bible, and then the Koran ???

THERE IS NO MORAL EQUIVALENCE BETWEEN CHRISTIANITY AND ISLAM;
THE OT BIBLE...


Exodus 22:21
Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him...

Exodus 23:9
Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger...

Leviticus 19:33
And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34  But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself...

n.b.
.....and thou shalt love him as thyself

Deuteronomy 1:16
And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

Deuteronomy 10:17-19
For the LORD your God... loveth the stranger, ...Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 24:17
Thou shalt not pervert the judgment of the stranger, nor of the fatherless; nor take a widow's raiment to pledge:
18  But thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt, and the LORD thy God redeemed thee thence: therefore I command thee to do this thing.

Deuteronomy 27:19
Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger...


How more definitive can the character of the person of the God of Israel be, than what is declared in those OT Bible verses ???


+++



THERE IS NO MORAL EQUIVALENCE BETWEEN CHRISTIANITY AND ISLAM;
THE KORAN...


"......the curse of Allah is on those without Faith."
Koran 2.089


"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98


"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11


"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves....."
Koran 48.29


"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123


"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111


+++


Abu,

Allah, and the God of Israel, are not the same god or, person.

You have been deceived, BY WHAT IS WITHIN YOUR OWN HEART!!

You have been deceived, BY THE THING WHICH >> YOU << HAVE WELCOMED, INTO YOUR OWN HEART!!

And the fact is clear, from comparing the contents of the Koran, with the contents of the Bible.

Google;
a different god allah

Google;
allah another god



Allah, proudly claims that he is a great deceiver.

I believe him.

Google;
99 names of Allah, the best deceiver



Abu,
You follow Allah.
You are in his camp.

Q.
Is it wise to follow a fellow who proudly claims to be a great, and clever deceiver ?

hmmm ?

My apologies to bobby.         ;)

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 6:46am:

Quote: The views that i hold about apostasy and ['religious'] belief [....i.e. that 'belief' is a personal matter, a matter of conscience], are distinctly different from what Allah and Mohammed state, as being firm doctrine. i.e. That unbelief [rejecting ISLAM] is a crime, against Allah. Why are you ignoring my quotes from your book that state the same thing about your god and ppl that worship different ones?

I am not ignoring anything SPOT.

I have given you evidences that those laws did sanction the killing of Hebrews, by Hebrews, for seeking to worship other Gods.iONCE AGAIN, WITH FEELING......

Those punishments were directed exclusively towards and against COVENANT BREAKERS who were exclusively Hebrews.

Those were the punishments, against HEBREW covenant breakers.



Numbers 30:2
If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.




The Hebrew people were 'in-covenant', with their God.

"...And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do...."
Exodus 19:5-8





What do you say to that SPOT ?

Are you going to acknowledge the validity of that evidence, in this argument about 'killing apostates' ???

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 6:46am:

Quote: And our Australian laws also prevent moslems from the violent inclination [many] Australian moslems do harbour, to try impose Sharia law in Australia. I said this also but they are trying to impose it on themselves not everyone. They are not allowed in this country though apparently because the laws conflict with ours. [quote]But ALL moslems living within Australia DO want to remove Australian law, and if they could, moslems living within Australia, would use force, to impose Sharia law upon all Australians.

No. They want to impose it on themselves not all australians.


[/quote]

SPOT,

Your ignorance is BOUNDLESS.

BOUNDLESS = = without limit.






SPOT, the intellectual....

Quote:

No. [moslems] want to impose it on themselves not all australians.

Quote:

Live in peace till strong enough to wage jihad, says UK Deoband scholar to Muslims London, Sept.8 [2007] A Deobandi scholar believes Muslims should preach peace till they are strong enough to undertake a jihad, or a holy war. Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani was quoted by the BBC as saying that Muslims should live peacefully in countries such as Britain, where they have the freedom to practise Islam, only until they gain enough power to engage in battle.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2409833.ece




Quote:

Pakistani cleric: 'We want Islamic law for all Pakistan and then the world. We would like to do this by preaching. But if not then we would use force.'

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/12/pakistani-cleric-we-want-islamic-law-for-all-pakistan-and-then-the-world-we-would-like-to-do-this-by.html






Quote:

July 9, 2007 Muslims declare sovereignty over U.S., UK Across town from the site of the recent attempted car-bomb attacks, several thousand Muslims gathered in front of the London Central Mosque to applaud fiery preachers prophesying the overthrow of the British government – a future vision that encompasses an Islamic takeover of the White House and the rule of the Quran over America. "One day my dear Muslims," shouted Anjem Choudary, "Islam will govern Britain!" "......Queen Elizabeth, go to hell!" ......angry Muslim leader Abu Saif, who kept his voice at a fever pitch through declarations such as: "Brothers and sisters, make no mistake. Make no mistake. The British government, the queen, the MPs in this country, they are enemies to you, enemies to Allah and enemies to the Muslims."

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/07/muslims-declare-sovereignty-over-us-uk.htmli



Quote:

[quote]Any moslem who would deny this, would be barefacedly lying to you.

Because you believe it so it must be true - or did god tell you?


[/quote]




No SPOT, i believe it, because moslems told me,
......well actually, they were telling other moslems, but i was eaves dropping!!!i
+++

Hey SPOT,

I know that you can read.

But what are your English comprehension skills like ???




Q. 1,
Who is Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani ?

Q. 2,
And what did Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani say, about moslems, preaching peace, to unbelievers ???



Your total possible score, is 2.

And i will award you two gold stars, if you answer correctly!!

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 8^th, 2012 at 9:34pm:

Do you worship an evil being? Or do you think "God turned over a new leaf" and was reformed? He was previously an evil god, but he changed his wicked ways? Strange beliefs indeed.

Abu,

My God ???





Through our mistakes, we come to suffering, through our suffering we are meant to [eventually] come to knowledge [and to come to the wisdom of always 'giving way' [surrendering] to righteousness].

Those who are both righteous and strong, must use the law [and their strength] to protect the rights of [themselves] the strong, and the rights of those who are weaker than themselves.



Whereas, those who cling to the philosophy and to the tenets of ISLAM [i.e. moslems], are too proud to submit themselves to the true God, and to submit themselves to God's righteousness.            Romans 10:3

The choice of moslems, is to seek to impose 'Allah's law' upon others, not to protect themselves, AND, the weak, but they follow 'Allah's law' only for their own selfish reasons, so as to increase their own strength [...they imagine].

Not so ?

Then where is the ISLAMIC paradise on earth, the example of righteousness, to us unbelievers Abu ?




Pride was the principle sin of SATAN.

And so it is too, with his disciples.


Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13  For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14  I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15  Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.




Those moslems who refuse to repent, and refuse to abandon ISLAM, and refuse to abandon Allah, they will suffer the wrath of the God of Israel.

What is that Arabic script Abu, which moslems wear on cloth upon their arms and on their foreheads when they engage in 'Jihad operations' ?

What does that Arabic script say, Abu ???

Google;
Shahada, confession of a muslim



Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Quote:

Those were the punishments, against HEBREW covenant breakers.

Righttttttttttt so its only okay to kill hebrews?


Quote:

What do you say to that SPOT ?

[edit]If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. - Luke 14:26

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. - Luke 19:27 (!!!)

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. - John 3:36

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. - John 15:6 [/edit]

New testament. Jesus talking.

Figurative?


Quote:

SPOT, Your ignorance is BOUNDLESS.

And you are stupid . . .. dumb also


Quote:

Live in peace till strong enough to wage jihad, says UK Deoband scholar to Muslims London, Sept.8 [2007]

Uhh that is UK . . . . .


Quote:

No SPOT, i believe it, because moslems told me, ......well actually, they were telling other moslems, but i was eaves dropping!!!

That doesnt mean all muslims are the same. Are Catholics and mormons the same? Are all xtians the same?


Quote:

But what are your English comprehension skills like ???

Looks like they are better than yours since your question is not an english/comprehension question but general knowledge.

*steals the gold stars and doesnt bother answering the stupid questions*

Who cares what he said? He is 1 person.

SOB

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 1:12pm:

It is already happening with polygamy spot, i know a muslim couple the wife remarried recently yet her husband is already married and spends about half of the week with his other wife,dont worry cantrelink is supporting both families.

They get less from centrelink when recognised as two de-facto couples, than if they aren't recognised.

You're a tool.


Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 1:12pm:

Do you like how they claim it protects the rights of women,Polygamy is illegal if they made it legal then it would protect the rights of the men who would otherwise be thrown in jail for breaking our laws.

Polygamy is not against Australian laws, remember this is the land of freedom and democracy, as long as you're not hurting anyone, then it's ok to do it. That's the Aussie mantra.

Bobby. wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 12:43am:

Your treason argument is a strawman fallacy.

No it is not. The text which deals with capital punishment for apostasy makes it clear it's about committing treason against the nation/community.


Bobby. wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 12:43am:

We haven't executed anyone for that since WW2 - I think.

Other Western countries do. And life imprisonment certainly isn't any more humane if you ask me.


Bobby. wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 12:43am:

On the other hand people in Iran are killed all the time for apostasy.

So you should be able to name hundreds for us then? Not that Iran has any legitimacy to me anyway.


Bobby. wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 12:43am:

I have good reason to believe that you want that here judging by your posts. Just say it's not true - you don't believe in killing people for religious reasons. Tell us that you are a moderate Islamist who wants peace in the world & that you recognise our secular society & that's what you want for Australia. It's that simple Abu.

I am a Muslim, not a moderate nor an extremist, I reject both of these labels. Islamic law does indeed mandate capital punishment for a treasonous apostate, but as an individual that law places no obligation whatsoever upon me. Just as America's capital punishments for certain kinds of robberies does not mandate that each individual American is responsible for implementing said punishment from their own judgement.

That's effectively what you're attempting to claim here.

I do not want a secular society, I want a society based on the true word of God. Does that mean I'm going to wage some violent campaign of enforcement of my wants upon my fellow citizens?? Definitely not!

Your views and your questions are just ludicrous.

Abu,

Quote:

I want a society based on the true word of God.

But the true word of God says you must kill apostates.
Your reply doesn't make sense.

Bobby. wrote on Aug 10^th, 2012 at 7:03am:

Abu, Quote: I want a society based on the true word of God. But the true word of God says you must kill apostates. Your reply doesn't make sense.

No it doesn't. Capital punishment is an affair of the state, not of any individual.

Does the Australian legal system say you must kidnap thieves and tie them up in your basement?

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 11^th, 2012 at 6:18am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 10th, 2012 at 7:03am: Abu, Quote: I want a society based on the true word of God. But the true word of God says you must kill apostates. Your reply doesn't make sense. No it doesn't. Capital punishment is an affair of the state, not of any individual. Does the Australian legal system say you must kidnap thieves and tie them up in your basement?

There is capital punishment in america. There is no capital punishment here. Hopefully there never will be. There is always a chance that an innocent will be murdered by the state. A lot of xtians are pro-capital punishment though. A LOT. Its not just a muslim thing.

SOB

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 11^th, 2012 at 6:18am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 10th, 2012 at 7:03am: Abu, Quote: I want a society based on the true word of God. But the true word of God says you must kill apostates. Your reply doesn't make sense. No it doesn't. Capital punishment is an affair of the state, not of any individual. Does the Australian legal system say you must kidnap thieves and tie them up in your basement?

I thought Islam made capital punishment a community affair and encouraged everyone to participate in the long, drawn out death. You joke about the Australian legal system doing it, but that is what Islam actually does, isn't it Abu?

And right on queue we have Spot trying to equate the death penalty for murder with Abu's support for the death penalty for thought crimes.

freediver wrote on Aug 11^th, 2012 at 7:36am:

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 11th, 2012 at 6:18am: Bobby. wrote on Aug 10th, 2012 at 7:03am: Abu, Quote: I want a society based on the true word of God. But the true word of God says you must kill apostates. Your reply doesn't make sense. No it doesn't. Capital punishment is an affair of the state, not of any individual. Does the Australian legal system say you must kidnap thieves and tie them up in your basement? I thought Islam made capital punishment a community affair and encouraged everyone to participate in the long, drawn out death. You joke about the Australian legal system doing it, but that is what Islam actually does, isn't it Abu?

Good point Freediver,
They all join in & stone women to death.
They are barbaric people still trapped in a bronze age time warp.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 11^th, 2012 at 6:35am:

There is capital punishment in america. There is no capital punishment here. Hopefully there never will be. There is always a chance that an innocent will be murdered by the state. A lot of xtians are pro-capital punishment though. A LOT. Its not just a muslim thing.

Obviously Australia no longer has capital punishment. The point was spot, that just as the vast majority of Australians don't want to kidnap and tie up thieves, just because their law says thieves should be imprisoned, I don't personally want to execute anyone just because the law I believe in says it is so.

freediver wrote on Aug 11^th, 2012 at 7:36am:

I thought Islam made capital punishment a community affair and encouraged everyone to participate in the long, drawn out death. You joke about the Australian legal system doing it, but that is what Islam actually does, isn't it Abu?

Sorry fd, but I'm not aware of any Islamic law that obligates me to partake in any execution.

Islamic law however does advise that executions be public, in order to make their impact on society worthwhile. When people see the punishment being enacted in front of their own eyes, then they will be a lot less likely to commit the same kinds of crimes.

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 11^th, 2012 at 6:18am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 10th, 2012 at 7:03am: Abu, Quote: I want a society based on the true word of God. But the true word of God says you must kill apostates. Your reply doesn't make sense. No it doesn't. Capital punishment is an affair of the state, not of any individual. Does the Australian legal system say you must kidnap thieves and tie them up in your basement?

Abu,

The statement you made on this issue, does not align with the command of Allah.




The Koran, gives advice on the punishment for apostates who resist the spread of  ISLAMIC authority;

Don't bring those persons before a court,   "seize them and slay them wherever ye find them....."

"They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;- "
Koran 4.89


And so, those infidels [i.e. apostates, and 'disbelievers'] who resist the authority of the REAL moslems, deserve no mercy, but should be "be seized and slain" [  <---- Allah commands this. And Allah, is never wrong! ]....

"Truly, if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who stir up sedition in the City....whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain (without mercy)."
Koran 33.60,61


Those "seize and slay" acts commanded by Allah, are 'lawful' to every moslem.
.....because they ARE commanded by Allah himself.


And Allah reveals no 'qualification',    Allah commands moslems to "seize and slay" those who resist, and oppose, the spread of his law.







And any person who reveals themselves to be an apostate, ".....his blood may legally be spilled."

There are no IF'S, BUT'S or MAYBE'S.


FROM ISLAMIC LAW

"Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."...."
fiqhussunnah/#3.110



n.b.
"Whoever......becomes an unbeliever.....his blood may legally be spilled."

freediver wrote on Aug 11^th, 2012 at 7:38am:

And right on queue we have Spot trying to equate the death penalty for murder with Abu's support for the death penalty for thought crimes.

That is because there is a clear moral equivalence between the death penalty sanctioned in ISLAMIC law, and the death penalty in the laws of [some] secular states.
/sarc off



SPOT just opposes all avoidable [imposed] instances of human death.

Coz she is Saint SPOT, of OzPol.






Hey SPOT,

How do you feel about letting proven child killers live [....and indeed other proven beyond doubt killers] ?

Should we maintain our saintly tolerance, and forgive child killers their sins ?

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 11^th, 2012 at 3:53pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 11th, 2012 at 6:35am: There is capital punishment in america. There is no capital punishment here. Hopefully there never will be. There is always a chance that an innocent will be murdered by the state. A lot of xtians are pro-capital punishment though. A LOT. Its not just a muslim thing. Obviously Australia no longer has capital punishment. The point was spot, that just as the vast majority of Australians don't want to kidnap and tie up thieves, just because their law says thieves should be imprisoned, I don't personally want to execute anyone just because the law I believe in says it is so.

LOL

More 'sainthood' on display.
/sarc off



Of course you don't Abu.

You don't want to see people die,
......you just want ISLAM and its authority [its authority to 'LAWFULLY' kill those who reject ISLAM], imposed upon this country, and indeed upon every country in the world.

Yadda wrote on Aug 11^th, 2012 at 11:45pm:

The Koran, gives advice on the punishment for apostates who resist the spread of  ISLAMIC authority; Don't bring those persons before a court,   "seize them and slay them wherever ye find them....."

This verse relates to Arab pagans who were attacking the Muslims.

As usual Yadda, you are not even close to reality.

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 12^th, 2012 at 12:53am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 11th, 2012 at 11:45pm: The Koran, gives advice on the punishment for apostates who resist the spread of  ISLAMIC authority; Don't bring those persons before a court,   "seize them and slay them wherever ye find them....." This verse relates to Arab pagans who were attacking the Muslims. As usual Yadda, you are not even close to reality.

Those naughty Arab pagans!!

How dare they!!!




Abu,

And pray tell, why were the pagans attacking the moslems ???



"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."
Koran 9.5


"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123

Quote:

SPOT just opposes all avoidable [imposed] instances of human death. Coz she is Saint SPOT, of OzPol.

Now you know what i think do you lil girl?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1338623277/45#50

SOB

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 11^th, 2012 at 3:55pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 11th, 2012 at 7:36am: I thought Islam made capital punishment a community affair and encouraged everyone to participate in the long, drawn out death. You joke about the Australian legal system doing it, but that is what Islam actually does, isn't it Abu? Sorry fd, but I'm not aware of any Islamic law that obligates me to partake in any execution. Islamic law however does advise that executions be public, in order to make their impact on society worthwhile. When people see the punishment being enacted in front of their own eyes, then they will be a lot less likely to commit the same kinds of crimes.

And they are meant to be stoned to death by a large crowd, right?

Did they ever get paid for throwing the stones?


Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 12^th, 2012 at 7:51am:

Quote: SPOT just opposes all avoidable [imposed] instances of human death. Coz she is Saint SPOT, of OzPol. Now you know what i think do you lil girl? SOB

He seems to have a better grasp of you than you do of Abu.