??  ::)

Thermodynamics is bunk?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy0UBpagsu8

Well he does work in a nuclear power plant
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALJ1ddBfoNg

http://www.ilovedesign.com/shared/assets/QRK013/230651/PerpetualGrowthforRedbubble.jpg

A rational-minded economist wouldn't believe in perpetual growth.

Solutions?

A sensible regime of Tariffs and subsidy's to provide fertile ground for sustainable manufacturing and agriculture for Australias natural native population growth - the end of unsustainable free trade and mass skills migration is the solution to the growth problem. 8-) 8-)

That might work for a while, but there's problems in predicting demand. It's not easy to predicted equal manufacturing in line with equal demand and then make sure there is the equal re-growth/renewability of resources.

The old Soviet Union had this problem of predicting demand. They couldn't predict with any certainty how much and what to produce.
The market works better in that respect.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25^th, 2012 at 4:09pm:

Solutions?

It does mean solutions will have to be found to the predicaments we have put ourselves in, yes!

But, then, that is evolution so....  ;D  ;) ;)

Prevailing wrote on Jul 25^th, 2012 at 4:15pm:

A sensible regime of Tariffs and subsidy's to provide fertile ground for sustainable manufacturing and agriculture for Australias natural native population growth - the end of unsustainable free trade and mass skills migration is the solution to the growth problem. 8-) 8-)

Care to define 'sensible'?

  ;) ;)

It all sounds good on paper until you have to try and sell it....

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25^th, 2012 at 4:21pm:

That might work for a while, but there's problems in predicting demand. It's not easy to predicted equal manufacturing in line with equal demand and then make sure there is the equal re-growth/renewability of resources. The old Soviet Union had this problem of predicting demand. They couldn't predict with any certainty how much and what to produce. The market works better in that respect.

The old soviet union worked on the same principles of the free market.  Free trade cased the last great depression and the current global financial crisis so why be addicted to failure? 8-) 8-)

Mnemonic wrote on Jul 24^th, 2012 at 7:16pm:

A rational-minded economist wouldn't believe in perpetual growth.

enter GROUPTHINK!!  ::)

Corporatism, economic rationalism, Free Trade, Globalization, Deregulation, Open Borders, Mass Skills Migration, 30 years of epic fail and destruction of a nation that was once a prospering, reforming protectionist country... ::) ::)

Prevailing wrote on Jul 25^th, 2012 at 4:33pm:

Corporatism, economic rationalism, Free Trade, Globalization, Deregulation, Open Borders, Mass Skills Migration, 30 years of epic fail and destruction of a nation that was once a prospering, reforming protectionist country... ::) ::)

I think you're off topic mate. Try putting down the crackpipe!   ;D ;D  :D

Prevailing wrote on Jul 25^th, 2012 at 4:28pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:21pm: That might work for a while, but there's problems in predicting demand. It's not easy to predicted equal manufacturing in line with equal demand and then make sure there is the equal re-growth/renewability of resources. The old Soviet Union had this problem of predicting demand. They couldn't predict with any certainty how much and what to produce. The market works better in that respect. The old soviet union worked on the same principles of the free market.  Free trade cased the last great depression and the current global financial crisis so why be addicted to failure? 8-) 8-)

To an extent they were built on the same principles but the organization of production and consumption was very different. Still, I don't follow how tariffs, subsidies, and ending excess migration solves 'perpetual growth.' People 'demand' things, therefore how do you stop demand turning into growth?

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 25^th, 2012 at 4:25pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:09pm: Solutions? It does mean solutions will have to be found to the predicaments we have put ourselves in, yes! But, then, that is evolution so....  ;D  ;) ;)

Well, it might be trendy and cool to 'rally against the system, man,' but pragmatic solutions are required when problems are identified.

Be prepared for your $$ to be worth nothing. :)

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25^th, 2012 at 4:44pm:

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:25pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:09pm: Solutions? It does mean solutions will have to be found to the predicaments we have put ourselves in, yes! But, then, that is evolution so....  ;D  ;) ;) Well, it might be trendy and cool to 'rally against the system, man,' but pragmatic solutions are required when problems are identified.

gO FOR IT THEN!  ;) ;)

Perpetual Growth or the Exponential Function IS

The Definition of IMPOSSIBLE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0G5c672Uak&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO_Z31YGjFA&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YjDmkWu92A&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfP4HBfbyWQ&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAfzEHVTHW4&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPLm5kl71v8&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqIAt59FTlE&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mb_mem_F_u0&feature=relmfu

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 25^th, 2012 at 4:49pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:44pm: BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:25pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:09pm: Solutions? It does mean solutions will have to be found to the predicaments we have put ourselves in, yes! But, then, that is evolution so....  ;D  ;) ;) Well, it might be trendy and cool to 'rally against the system, man,' but pragmatic solutions are required when problems are identified. gO FOR IT THEN!  ;) ;)

The only solution (that I can come up with at this stage) is to encourage recycling further, and hope in the future technology can help firms to manufacture products from recyclable material. Because, the way business and money operates, it cannot but 'grow.' Growth is rooted in the very fundamentals of business.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25^th, 2012 at 5:00pm:

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:49pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:44pm: BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:25pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:09pm: Solutions? It does mean solutions will have to be found to the predicaments we have put ourselves in, yes! But, then, that is evolution so....  ;D  ;) ;) Well, it might be trendy and cool to 'rally against the system, man,' but pragmatic solutions are required when problems are identified. gO FOR IT THEN!  ;) ;) The only solution (that I can come up with at this stage) is to encourage recycling further, and hope in the future technology can help firms to manufacture products from recyclable material. Because, the way business and money operates, it cannot but 'grow.' Growth is rooted in the very fundamentals of business.

That has been the way it has been presented, BUT IT IS AN IMPOSSIBILITY, IN REALITY, OVER TIME, as we are now finding out!

FriYAY wrote on Jul 25^th, 2012 at 4:45pm:

Be prepared for your $$ to be worth nothing. :)

Be ready to loose Pokies, credit and other forms of usury and exploitation.... ;D ;D

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 25^th, 2012 at 5:13pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:00pm: BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:49pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:44pm: BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:25pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:09pm: Solutions? It does mean solutions will have to be found to the predicaments we have put ourselves in, yes! But, then, that is evolution so....  ;D  ;) ;) Well, it might be trendy and cool to 'rally against the system, man,' but pragmatic solutions are required when problems are identified. gO FOR IT THEN!  ;) ;) The only solution (that I can come up with at this stage) is to encourage recycling further, and hope in the future technology can help firms to manufacture products from recyclable material. Because, the way business and money operates, it cannot but 'grow.' Growth is rooted in the very fundamentals of business. That has been the way it has been presented, BUT IT IS AN IMPOSSIBILITY, IN REALITY, OVER TIME, as we are now finding out!

How can you operate a business without having 'growth'?

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25^th, 2012 at 5:14pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:13pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:00pm: BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:49pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:44pm: BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:25pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:09pm: Solutions? It does mean solutions will have to be found to the predicaments we have put ourselves in, yes! But, then, that is evolution so....  ;D  ;) ;) Well, it might be trendy and cool to 'rally against the system, man,' but pragmatic solutions are required when problems are identified. gO FOR IT THEN!  ;) ;) The only solution (that I can come up with at this stage) is to encourage recycling further, and hope in the future technology can help firms to manufacture products from recyclable material. Because, the way business and money operates, it cannot but 'grow.' Growth is rooted in the very fundamentals of business. That has been the way it has been presented, BUT IT IS AN IMPOSSIBILITY, IN REALITY, OVER TIME, as we are now finding out! How can you operate a business without having 'growth'?

Before we get into that question, watch Albert Bartlett's Exponential Function video's 1-8, then come back and you may find the question has changed to -
How can we continue to operate business Globally AND have exponential 'growth'?

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25^th, 2012 at 5:14pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:13pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:00pm: BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:49pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:44pm: BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:25pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:09pm: Solutions? It does mean solutions will have to be found to the predicaments we have put ourselves in, yes! But, then, that is evolution so....  ;D  ;) ;) Well, it might be trendy and cool to 'rally against the system, man,' but pragmatic solutions are required when problems are identified. gO FOR IT THEN!  ;) ;) The only solution (that I can come up with at this stage) is to encourage recycling further, and hope in the future technology can help firms to manufacture products from recyclable material. Because, the way business and money operates, it cannot but 'grow.' Growth is rooted in the very fundamentals of business. That has been the way it has been presented, BUT IT IS AN IMPOSSIBILITY, IN REALITY, OVER TIME, as we are now finding out! How can you operate a business without having 'growth'?

why must you have growth? If the banks make $3 billion profit a year, why is that not enough? why must they screw everything and everyone to try and make that 3 become 6 become 16 ......

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 25^th, 2012 at 5:43pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:14pm: perceptions_now wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:13pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:00pm: BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:49pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:44pm: BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:25pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:09pm: Solutions? It does mean solutions will have to be found to the predicaments we have put ourselves in, yes! But, then, that is evolution so....  ;D  ;) ;) Well, it might be trendy and cool to 'rally against the system, man,' but pragmatic solutions are required when problems are identified. gO FOR IT THEN!  ;) ;) The only solution (that I can come up with at this stage) is to encourage recycling further, and hope in the future technology can help firms to manufacture products from recyclable material. Because, the way business and money operates, it cannot but 'grow.' Growth is rooted in the very fundamentals of business. That has been the way it has been presented, BUT IT IS AN IMPOSSIBILITY, IN REALITY, OVER TIME, as we are now finding out! How can you operate a business without having 'growth'? Before we get into that question, watch Albert Bartlett's Exponential Function video's 1-8, then come back and you may find the question has changed to - How can we continue to operate business Globally AND have exponential 'growth'?

I am not watching 80 minutes of video. Just sum it up for me in a few paragraphs.

If I am getting the context of that question right, all you're doing is putting the cart before the horse. It's not a question of 'how can we continue to have growth because of ... (insert horror story here),' it's more of 'how do you operate a business that works with no growth?' In other words, how do you change the fundamentals of business and still make sure everyone is fed, clothed, sheltered, and  have the extras they want?

John Smith wrote on Jul 25^th, 2012 at 5:46pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:14pm: perceptions_now wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:13pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:00pm: BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:49pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:44pm: BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:25pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:09pm: Solutions? It does mean solutions will have to be found to the predicaments we have put ourselves in, yes! But, then, that is evolution so....  ;D  ;) ;) Well, it might be trendy and cool to 'rally against the system, man,' but pragmatic solutions are required when problems are identified. gO FOR IT THEN!  ;) ;) The only solution (that I can come up with at this stage) is to encourage recycling further, and hope in the future technology can help firms to manufacture products from recyclable material. Because, the way business and money operates, it cannot but 'grow.' Growth is rooted in the very fundamentals of business. That has been the way it has been presented, BUT IT IS AN IMPOSSIBILITY, IN REALITY, OVER TIME, as we are now finding out! How can you operate a business without having 'growth'? why must you have growth? If the banks make $3 billion profit a year, why is that not enough? why must they screw everything and everyone to try and make that 3 become 6 become 16 ......

Regardless of the profit margins of banks or any company for that matter, businesses must make a profit from their sales. They must receive more money from their sales than they spend on their expenditures. Otherwise, they'll eventually go bankrupt and there won't be anything to sell. That means drastically reduced supplies of all necessary (and desired) commodities. Which then means death for millions.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25^th, 2012 at 6:22pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:46pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:14pm: perceptions_now wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:13pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:00pm: BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:49pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:44pm: BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:25pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:09pm: Solutions? It does mean solutions will have to be found to the predicaments we have put ourselves in, yes! But, then, that is evolution so....  ;D  ;) ;) Well, it might be trendy and cool to 'rally against the system, man,' but pragmatic solutions are required when problems are identified. gO FOR IT THEN!  ;) ;) The only solution (that I can come up with at this stage) is to encourage recycling further, and hope in the future technology can help firms to manufacture products from recyclable material. Because, the way business and money operates, it cannot but 'grow.' Growth is rooted in the very fundamentals of business. That has been the way it has been presented, BUT IT IS AN IMPOSSIBILITY, IN REALITY, OVER TIME, as we are now finding out! How can you operate a business without having 'growth'? why must you have growth? If the banks make $3 billion profit a year, why is that not enough? why must they screw everything and everyone to try and make that 3 become 6 become 16 ...... Regardless of the profit margins of banks or any company for that matter, businesses must make a profit from their sales. They must receive more money from their sales than they spend on their expenditures. Otherwise, they'll eventually go bankrupt and there won't be anything to sell. That means drastically reduced supplies of all necessary (and desired) commodities. Which then means death for millions.

Sadly you don't make profits from creaming off the top, downsizing, abolishing sensible tariffs, sending business off shore, outsourcing ect you just wreck businesses, undermine the economy and destroy nations.  People and business require stability, security and certainty to prosper that only parties like the Rise Up Australia Party can deliver.... 8-)

I had a look at that Rise Up party and they have some good ideas. I think if they tone down the religious element they'll gain more votes.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25^th, 2012 at 6:17pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:43pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:14pm: perceptions_now wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:13pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:00pm: BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:49pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:44pm: BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:25pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:09pm: Solutions? It does mean solutions will have to be found to the predicaments we have put ourselves in, yes! But, then, that is evolution so....  ;D  ;) ;) Well, it might be trendy and cool to 'rally against the system, man,' but pragmatic solutions are required when problems are identified. gO FOR IT THEN!  ;) ;) The only solution (that I can come up with at this stage) is to encourage recycling further, and hope in the future technology can help firms to manufacture products from recyclable material. Because, the way business and money operates, it cannot but 'grow.' Growth is rooted in the very fundamentals of business. That has been the way it has been presented, BUT IT IS AN IMPOSSIBILITY, IN REALITY, OVER TIME, as we are now finding out! How can you operate a business without having 'growth'? Before we get into that question, watch Albert Bartlett's Exponential Function video's 1-8, then come back and you may find the question has changed to - How can we continue to operate business Globally AND have exponential 'growth'? I am not watching 80 minutes of video. Just sum it up for me in a few paragraphs. If I am getting the context of that question right, all you're doing is putting the cart before the horse. It's not a question of 'how can we continue to have growth because of ... (insert horror story here),' it's more of 'how do you operate a business that works with no growth?' In other words, how do you change the fundamentals of business and still make sure everyone is fed, clothed, sheltered, and  have the extras they want?

Now that's funny!

Those video's were put together by a very, very smart professor and what he needed to say took about 80 minutes.
And, you think I should be able to do it in a couple of paragraphs. 

Let me put it this way, watch the first 3 & you should start to get the idea. Then, if you are starting to get the idea, you will want to look at it all, too get the full picture!

If you don't get a reasonable picture after watching the first 3, then you wasted 30 minutes of your life.
So what, all of us do that & more, much more.

Of course, if your mind is already made up, then no amount of information will convince you of anything!   

If you know it so well then a few paragraphs should be no problem. Did you do a Bachelor degree at all? If you did, one of the main skills you should have learnt is to summarize large amounts of information in a few paragraphs.

I know the dangers associated with over use of resources, I am just not convinced of any proposed solution thus far. In fact, for all the critiques of growth and capitalism out there, I've never heard of any workable solution. It might be 'cool' and 'hip' to criticize capitalism, but it's pointless if you have no alternative.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25^th, 2012 at 6:22pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:46pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:14pm: perceptions_now wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:13pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:00pm: BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:49pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:44pm: BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:25pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:09pm: Solutions? It does mean solutions will have to be found to the predicaments we have put ourselves in, yes! But, then, that is evolution so....  ;D  ;) ;) Well, it might be trendy and cool to 'rally against the system, man,' but pragmatic solutions are required when problems are identified. gO FOR IT THEN!  ;) ;) The only solution (that I can come up with at this stage) is to encourage recycling further, and hope in the future technology can help firms to manufacture products from recyclable material. Because, the way business and money operates, it cannot but 'grow.' Growth is rooted in the very fundamentals of business. That has been the way it has been presented, BUT IT IS AN IMPOSSIBILITY, IN REALITY, OVER TIME, as we are now finding out! How can you operate a business without having 'growth'? why must you have growth? If the banks make $3 billion profit a year, why is that not enough? why must they screw everything and everyone to try and make that 3 become 6 become 16 ...... Regardless of the profit margins of banks or any company for that matter, businesses must make a profit from their sales. They must receive more money from their sales than they spend on their expenditures. Otherwise, they'll eventually go bankrupt and there won't be anything to sell. That means drastically reduced supplies of all necessary (and desired) commodities. Which then means death for millions.

Let me say, there are competing interests here!

For starters, individual businesses need more income than expenditure, in order to make a Profit & therefore stay in business. However, that does not mean & nor are there any guarantees that all businesses &/or countries will continue & not go bankrupt.

If you &/or anyone else takes the time to review the information in Professor Bartlett's video's, you would conclude that many of the desired (in fact essential) commodities (particularly in Energy) are now facing drastic reductions to the Supply lines, over the next 2-3 decades. And, the more we try to retain the Population Growth Status Quo, the quicker these commodities will Deplete.

Those Supply Declines will be permanent and resulting from that & the retirement, then death of 2 Billion Baby Boomers, the Global Economy will change forever, as the Globally supportable Population Declines to around 2-3 Billion, by 2050. 

I don't care, which Political Party anyone supports, these future facts mean that Business, Economics & Politics must change & change quickly, IF our future generations are to have any chance at a reasonable life! 

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25^th, 2012 at 7:50pm:

If you know it so well then a few paragraphs should be no problem. Did you do a Bachelor degree at all? If you did, one of the main skills you should have learnt is to summarize large amounts of information in a few paragraphs. I know the dangers associated with over use of resources, I am just not convinced of any proposed solution thus far. In fact, for all the critiques of growth and capitalism out there, I've never heard of any workable solution. It might be 'cool' and 'hip' to criticize capitalism, but it's pointless if you have no alternative.

In fact Capitalism is still the best Economic model, so far generated, but it will have to be refined, some of the excesses removed & the same will have to happen with Politics & Democracy! 

The First Law of Sustainability

Population Growth &/or
Growth in the rates of Consumption of Resources
CAN NOT BE SUSTAINED!

Per Professor Albert Bartlett

Paul Ehrlich, The Limits to Growth (1972).

Still hasn't happened.

:D :D :D :D :D

Shane B wrote on Jul 25^th, 2012 at 10:00pm:

Paul Ehrlich, The Limits to Growth (1972). Still hasn't happened. :D :D :D :D :D

Try keeping up Shane & try watching the Professors video's, they would help.

To put it as simply as possible, there are limits to Growth & we are now living thru those times!

Shane B wrote on Jul 25^th, 2012 at 10:00pm:

Paul Ehrlich, The Limits to Growth (1972). Still hasn't happened. :D :D :D :D :D

Its insanity to pursue an ideology that can only end in catastrophe - especially the way we are doing by accelerating growth with mass immigration - if we do not reign the stupidity of the major parties, corporations and unions in fast the country is in deep shite. 8-) 8-)

Prevailing wrote on Jul 25^th, 2012 at 11:18pm:

Shane B wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 10:00pm: Paul Ehrlich, The Limits to Growth (1972). Still hasn't happened. :D :D :D :D :D Its insanity to pursue an ideology that can only end in catastrophe - especially the way we are doing by accelerating growth with mass immigration - if we do not reign the stupidity of the major parties, corporations and unions in fast the country is in deep shite. 8-) 8-)

What will the pursuit of your ideology end in?
What is your progressive ideology about? What are we progressing to? How and when will we know we are there?

Soren wrote on Jul 25^th, 2012 at 11:56pm:

Prevailing wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 11:18pm: Shane B wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 10:00pm: Paul Ehrlich, The Limits to Growth (1972). Still hasn't happened. :D :D :D :D :D Its insanity to pursue an ideology that can only end in catastrophe - especially the way we are doing by accelerating growth with mass immigration - if we do not reign the stupidity of the major parties, corporations and unions in fast the country is in deep shite. 8-) 8-) What will the pursuit of your ideology end in? What is your progressive ideology about? What are we progressing to? How and when will we know we are there?

If you plan on living another 10-20 years, you'll live thru it, with the rest of us!

Soren wrote on Jul 25^th, 2012 at 11:56pm:

Prevailing wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 11:18pm: Shane B wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 10:00pm: Paul Ehrlich, The Limits to Growth (1972). Still hasn't happened. :D :D :D :D :D Its insanity to pursue an ideology that can only end in catastrophe - especially the way we are doing by accelerating growth with mass immigration - if we do not reign the stupidity of the major parties, corporations and unions in fast the country is in deep shite. 8-) 8-) What will the pursuit of your ideology end in? What is your progressive ideology about? What are we progressing to? How and when will we know we are there?

The pursuit of the spirit our freedom and law is founded in by which we can never truly be slaves is our constitution and law founded in the Great magna Carta & Bill of Rights 1689.  Our prosperity, our freedom, our security. our rights are all declared there in statutes. 8-) 8-) 8-)

Bill of Rights 1689
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Rights_1689

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25^th, 2012 at 6:22pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:46pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:14pm: perceptions_now wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:13pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:00pm: BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:49pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:44pm: BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:25pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:09pm: Solutions? It does mean solutions will have to be found to the predicaments we have put ourselves in, yes! But, then, that is evolution so....  ;D  ;) ;) Well, it might be trendy and cool to 'rally against the system, man,' but pragmatic solutions are required when problems are identified. gO FOR IT THEN!  ;) ;) The only solution (that I can come up with at this stage) is to encourage recycling further, and hope in the future technology can help firms to manufacture products from recyclable material. Because, the way business and money operates, it cannot but 'grow.' Growth is rooted in the very fundamentals of business. That has been the way it has been presented, BUT IT IS AN IMPOSSIBILITY, IN REALITY, OVER TIME, as we are now finding out! How can you operate a business without having 'growth'? why must you have growth? If the banks make $3 billion profit a year, why is that not enough? why must they screw everything and everyone to try and make that 3 become 6 become 16 ...... Regardless of the profit margins of banks or any company for that matter, businesses must make a profit from their sales. They must receive more money from their sales than they spend on their expenditures. Otherwise, they'll eventually go bankrupt and there won't be anything to sell.

Sure, but why do they need growth?

Businesses existed before capitalism - back when lending money with interest (or ursury) carried a penalty, in some places, of death.

Only the financial sector needs growth - without compound interest, the incentive to loan money disappears.

This is why earlier economic thinkers placed their focus on the state as central lender/planner, but as you've pointed out, this is inefficient as well. Or just plain corrupt.

Without capital, the markets would be stuffed. But without checks and balances, capital will be stuffed. This is why the post-war institutions of the IMF, World Bank, etc, were created: to protect money. If you protect money, you protect states and their debt. If a state's interest bill goes sky-high, everyone is stuffed - even, as we've seen in Ireland and Greece, the system as a whole.

And that's when you get revolutions and wars.

The solution has to involve the global financial system. The Friedmanite Washington Consensus of the past 40 years - the focus on supply (free trade and market rule) - has been a dangerous experiment, but clearly, it's not over yet.

Prevailing's solution of protectionism can't work in the current economic setting. Protectionism worked in the post-war era because the global financial system used a gold standard for currency. This placed limits on the borrowing and spending of states. Also, for what it was, there was a General Agreement on Trade and Tariffs (GATT). As a multilateral framework, GATT was ineffective, but countries did negotiate tariffs bilaterally.

That was the point. On their own, tariffs do nothing except tax imports. With agreements in place, states produce what they're good at. They sell what they've got a surplus of and buy what they need.

This did leave the developing, cash crop economies at a loss, and that was the problem with the old model. Developing states borrowed money from developed (and oil rich) states to develop. This led to the loans crisis of the early 1980s, and the system came crashing down - again, a problem of capital.

In a global economy, only very powerful states can determine their own economies. Mind you, this always involves their satelite states and dependants. US economic policy has always relied heavily on Latin America, Europe, and now, China.

Therefore, the solution can only be transnational. The problem is, capitalism is steered by hegemonic states who will always resist - with force - anyone else grabbing their market share. The Dutch did it, Britain did it, Amerika does it, and China will do it before long. It's called gunship diplomacy, and ultimately, this is where all growth leads - to the systemic imbalances that lead to war.

This is why any attempt at a solution - even if you could get all the world's leaders sitting down at a table - is doomed to failure. If even minute taxes on transnational financial speculation are scoffed at, we're doomed.

Remember how Bob Brown was howled down for suggesting some form of international decision-making body?

We're buggered.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Thomas_Malthus.jpg

Good ol Malthus is still getting a red hot run around here.  ;D  ;D  ;D

I see professor Bartlett is a physicist, not an economist.

Yeah, we can stop growth. These guys should be content with what they have. It could worse, it could be a shoe box.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/Jakarta_slumhome_2.jpg
:D

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 25^th, 2012 at 9:40pm:

The First Law of Sustainability Population Growth &/or Growth in the rates of Consumption of Resources CAN NOT BE SUSTAINED! Per Professor Albert Bartlett

You can have growth without population growth, or more consumption of resources.

Technological growth and wealth growth can occur without comsuming more resources, and deliver higher and higher quality of life.

Doctor Jolly wrote on Jul 26^th, 2012 at 2:02pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 9:40pm: The First Law of Sustainability Population Growth &/or Growth in the rates of Consumption of Resources CAN NOT BE SUSTAINED! Per Professor Albert Bartlett You can have growth without population growth, or more consumption of resources. Technological growth and wealth growth can occur without comsuming more resources, and deliver higher and higher quality of life.

But technological advancements have seen us using resources more and more efficiently.

Shane B wrote on Jul 26^th, 2012 at 2:07pm:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 2:02pm: perceptions_now wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 9:40pm: The First Law of Sustainability Population Growth &/or Growth in the rates of Consumption of Resources CAN NOT BE SUSTAINED! Per Professor Albert Bartlett You can have growth without population growth, or more consumption of resources. Technological growth and wealth growth can occur without comsuming more resources, and deliver higher and higher quality of life. But technological advancements have seen us using resources more and more efficiently.

Do you mean like the shift from burning wood to coal? Or whale blubber to oil? Please explain.

Soren wrote on Jul 26^th, 2012 at 1:55pm:

Yeah, we can stop growth. These guys should be content with what they have. It could worse, it could be a shoe box. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/Jakarta_slumhome_2.jpg :D

That's right, old boy. These hideous tinted consumers should clean up their act.

I like the addition of terracotta tiles to the roof - a nice little aspirational touch, that.

Big Donger wrote on Jul 26^th, 2012 at 2:12pm:

Shane B wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 2:07pm: Doctor Jolly wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 2:02pm: perceptions_now wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 9:40pm: The First Law of Sustainability Population Growth &/or Growth in the rates of Consumption of Resources CAN NOT BE SUSTAINED! Per Professor Albert Bartlett You can have growth without population growth, or more consumption of resources. Technological growth and wealth growth can occur without comsuming more resources, and deliver higher and higher quality of life. But technological advancements have seen us using resources more and more efficiently. Do you mean like the shift from burning wood to coal? Or whale blubber to oil? Please explain.

I'm talking about technical efficiency. More crop yields per acre, more mileage per gallon etc.

Big Donger wrote on Jul 26^th, 2012 at 2:14pm:

Soren wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 1:55pm: Yeah, we can stop growth. These guys should be content with what they have. It could worse, it could be a shoe box. :D That's right, old boy. These hideous tinted consumers should clean up their act. I like the addition of terracotta tiles to the roof - a nice little aspirational touch, that.

Exactly. They seem to have plenty of clothes (I wonder how many pairs of shoes are inside).
Would their halos fall of if they picked up their own rubbish, rather than just tossing it under the humpy?  Do we need to send them a coupla million to teach them how to not to smacking litter?? Do we need to run a 'Do the Right Thing' campaign across the Third World, otherwise they wouldn't know?

Or I am mistaken and not living in your own filth is just some peculiar Western contruct?

Soren wrote on Jul 26^th, 2012 at 2:36pm:

Big Donger wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 2:14pm: Soren wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 1:55pm: Yeah, we can stop growth. These guys should be content with what they have. It could worse, it could be a shoe box. :D That's right, old boy. These hideous tinted consumers should clean up their act. I like the addition of terracotta tiles to the roof - a nice little aspirational touch, that. Exactly. They seem to have plenty of clothes (I wonder how many pairs of shoes are inside). Would their halos fall of if they picked up their own rubbish, rather than just tossing it under the humpy?  Do we need to send them a coupla million to teach them how to not to smacking litter?? Do we need to run a 'Do the Right Thing' campaign across the Third World, otherwise they wouldn't know? Or I am mistaken and not living in your own filth is just some peculiar Western contruct?

Let me get this straight. Your beef with the tinted races is that they are litterbugs. Do the Right Thing - Put it in the Bin.

You really are a bin-straightener, aren't you, old chap?

Shane B wrote on Jul 26^th, 2012 at 2:21pm:

Big Donger wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 2:12pm: Shane B wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 2:07pm: Doctor Jolly wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 2:02pm: perceptions_now wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 9:40pm: The First Law of Sustainability Population Growth &/or Growth in the rates of Consumption of Resources CAN NOT BE SUSTAINED! Per Professor Albert Bartlett You can have growth without population growth, or more consumption of resources. Technological growth and wealth growth can occur without comsuming more resources, and deliver higher and higher quality of life. But technological advancements have seen us using resources more and more efficiently. Do you mean like the shift from burning wood to coal? Or whale blubber to oil? Please explain. I'm talking about technical efficiency. More crop yields per acre, more mileage per gallon etc.

Maybe. What are you doing to the soil to produce more crop yields per acre? How much fuel are you using to crop dust, and what are you adding to the food chain?

Equally importantly, how much actual nutrition are you producing from high sugar crops like corn, the crops that are prioritised by agribusiness and sold to multinational giants like Nestle and Coca Cola?

Big Donger wrote on Jul 26^th, 2012 at 2:56pm:

Shane B wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 2:21pm: Big Donger wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 2:12pm: Shane B wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 2:07pm: Doctor Jolly wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 2:02pm: perceptions_now wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 9:40pm: The First Law of Sustainability Population Growth &/or Growth in the rates of Consumption of Resources CAN NOT BE SUSTAINED! Per Professor Albert Bartlett You can have growth without population growth, or more consumption of resources. Technological growth and wealth growth can occur without comsuming more resources, and deliver higher and higher quality of life. But technological advancements have seen us using resources more and more efficiently. Do you mean like the shift from burning wood to coal? Or whale blubber to oil? Please explain. I'm talking about technical efficiency. More crop yields per acre, more mileage per gallon etc. Maybe. What are you doing to the soil to produce more crop yields per acre? How much fuel are you using to crop dust, and what are you adding to the food chain? Equally importantly, how much actual nutrition are you producing from high sugar crops like corn, the crops that are prioritised by agribusiness and sold to multinational giants like Nestle and Coca Cola?

Sugar is yummy.

That's what Soren's malnourished, morbidly obese  litterbugs are saying.

Meanwhile, he goes about his business selling cheese.

Shane B wrote on Jul 26^th, 2012 at 2:07pm:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 2:02pm: perceptions_now wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 9:40pm: The First Law of Sustainability Population Growth &/or Growth in the rates of Consumption of Resources CAN NOT BE SUSTAINED! Per Professor Albert Bartlett You can have growth without population growth, or more consumption of resources. Technological growth and wealth growth can occur without comsuming more resources, and deliver higher and higher quality of life. But technological advancements have seen us using resources more and more efficiently.

shane b has never heard of jevons paradox!

Good luck with life Shane!! DO YOU FIND PEOPLE AVOIDING YOU OFTEN OR DO YOU SIMPLY NOT NOTICE BECAUSE THEY JUST MOVED FAR AWAY INEXPLICABLY!!???!!  :-*  :o  :'(

  :D :D

Shane B wrote on Jul 25^th, 2012 at 10:00pm:

Paul Ehrlich, The Limits to Growth (1972). Still hasn't happened. :D :D :D :D :D

Americans stopped growing their attitude 2 seconds after they saw 9-11 on global tv!

Lol, that was pretty funny how fast they stopped growing that shite!!

All of a sudden, "...nah, like,...that's not allowed... nah, biolgoical weapons are not fair y'all,... nah nah nah that's like against the rules man of decency and apple-pie and shite!!!  :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*  ;D

Yeh, the limits to growth haven't been reached.....................  ::)

.....................says shane the crack smokin' liberal voter!!  :-[

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 26^th, 2012 at 4:33pm:

[quote author=5C676E616A504D0F0 link=1343113505/35#35 date=1343217624]Paul Ehrlich, The Limits to Growth (1972). Still hasn't happened. :D :D :D :D :D

Americans stopped growing their attitude 2 seconds after they saw 9-11 on global tv!

Lol, that was pretty funny how fast they stopped growing that shite!!

All of a sudden, "...nah, like,...that's not allowed... nah, biolgoical weapons are not fair y'all,... nah nah nah that's like against the rules man of decency and apple-pie and shite!!!  :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*  ;D

Yeh, the limits to growth haven't been reached.....................  ::)

.....................says shane the crack smokin' liberal voter!!  :-[/quote]
Unlike you we realize that only when we stop subsidizing and protecting unsustainable economies and populations like china India and Africa and stop our insane immigration program can we start moving in a sustainable direction...ready to abandon the dark and embrace the light yet...::):D

Prevailing wrote on Jul 26^th, 2012 at 4:44pm:

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 4:33pm: [quote author=5C676E616A504D0F0 link=1343113505/35#35 date=1343217624]Paul Ehrlich, The Limits to Growth (1972). Still hasn't happened. :D :D :D :D :D Americans stopped growing their attitude 2 seconds after they saw 9-11 on global tv! Lol, that was pretty funny how fast they stopped growing that shite!! All of a sudden, "...nah, like,...that's not allowed... nah, biolgoical weapons are not fair y'all,... nah nah nah that's like against the rules man of decency and apple-pie and shite!!!  :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*  ;D Yeh, the limits to growth haven't been reached.....................  ::) .....................says shane the crack smokin' liberal voter!!  :-[/quote] Unlike you we realize that only when we stop subsidizing and protecting unsustainable economies and populations like china India and Africa and stop our insane immigration program can we start moving in a sustainable direction...ready to abandon the dark and embrace the light yet...::):D

Sure you're not a racist prevailing?  :o :o

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 26^th, 2012 at 4:59pm:

Prevailing wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 4:44pm: BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 4:33pm: [quote author=5C676E616A504D0F0 link=1343113505/35#35 date=1343217624]Paul Ehrlich, The Limits to Growth (1972). Still hasn't happened. :D :D :D :D :D Americans stopped growing their attitude 2 seconds after they saw 9-11 on global tv! Lol, that was pretty funny how fast they stopped growing that shite!! All of a sudden, "...nah, like,...that's not allowed... nah, biolgoical weapons are not fair y'all,... nah nah nah that's like against the rules man of decency and apple-pie and shite!!!  :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*  ;D Yeh, the limits to growth haven't been reached.....................  ::) .....................says shane the crack smokin' liberal voter!!  :-[/quote] Unlike you we realize that only when we stop subsidizing and protecting unsustainable economies and populations like china India and Africa and stop our insane immigration program can we start moving in a sustainable direction...ready to abandon the dark and embrace the light yet...::):D Sure you're not a racist prevailing?  :o :o

Yeh...thats why we believe in the same legal rights for All Australian citizens not just the White ones...redundant argument from an admitted racist free trade advocate and supporter of anti environment policies..,.

Prevailing wrote on Jul 26^th, 2012 at 5:09pm:

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 4:59pm: Prevailing wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 4:44pm: BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 4:33pm: [quote author=5C676E616A504D0F0 link=1343113505/35#35 date=1343217624]Paul Ehrlich, The Limits to Growth (1972). Still hasn't happened. :D :D :D :D :D Americans stopped growing their attitude 2 seconds after they saw 9-11 on global tv! Lol, that was pretty funny how fast they stopped growing that shite!! All of a sudden, "...nah, like,...that's not allowed... nah, biolgoical weapons are not fair y'all,... nah nah nah that's like against the rules man of decency and apple-pie and shite!!!  :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*  ;D Yeh, the limits to growth haven't been reached.....................  ::) .....................says shane the crack smokin' liberal voter!!  :-[/quote] Unlike you we realize that only when we stop subsidizing and protecting unsustainable economies and populations like china India and Africa and stop our insane immigration program can we start moving in a sustainable direction...ready to abandon the dark and embrace the light yet...::):D Sure you're not a racist prevailing?  :o :o Yeh...thats why we believe in the same legal rights for All Australian citizens not just the White ones...redundant argument from an admitted racist free trade advocate and supporter of anti environment policies..,.

Lol, prevailing is talking about 'redundant' arguments now!

How many members in your RISE UP PARTY nowadays dood????  ;) ;)

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 26^th, 2012 at 5:13pm:

Prevailing wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 5:09pm: BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 4:59pm: Prevailing wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 4:44pm: BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 4:33pm: [quote author=5C676E616A504D0F0 link=1343113505/35#35 date=1343217624]Paul Ehrlich, The Limits to Growth (1972). Still hasn't happened. :D :D :D :D :D Americans stopped growing their attitude 2 seconds after they saw 9-11 on global tv! Lol, that was pretty funny how fast they stopped growing that shite!! All of a sudden, "...nah, like,...that's not allowed... nah, biolgoical weapons are not fair y'all,... nah nah nah that's like against the rules man of decency and apple-pie and shite!!!  :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*  ;D Yeh, the limits to growth haven't been reached.....................  ::) .....................says shane the crack smokin' liberal voter!!  :-[/quote] Unlike you we realize that only when we stop subsidizing and protecting unsustainable economies and populations like china India and Africa and stop our insane immigration program can we start moving in a sustainable direction...ready to abandon the dark and embrace the light yet...::):D Sure you're not a racist prevailing?  :o :o Yeh...thats why we believe in the same legal rights for All Australian citizens not just the White ones...redundant argument from an admitted racist free trade advocate and supporter of anti environment policies..,. Lol, prevailing is talking about 'redundant' arguments now! How many members in your RISE UP PARTY nowadays dood????  ;) ;)

A little more than you might suspect...

When asked if he could imagine another Lehman Brothers-style event, he responded: 'It's just a matter of time. This financial system is completely unsustainable... The ability of governments to sustain the unsustainable ultimately rests on their ability to maintain faith in their creditworthiness...

http://www.moneymorning.com.au/20120726/stick-with-gold-through-the-eurozone-crisis.html

If they took over the mining industry they would have an income again (like the days when they had telstra and transport and electricity etc). These things got sold off by non-forward thinking govts that wanted a quick injection of cash and bugger the next govt.

SOB

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 26^th, 2012 at 12:06am:

Soren wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 11:56pm: Prevailing wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 11:18pm: Shane B wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 10:00pm: Paul Ehrlich, The Limits to Growth (1972). Still hasn't happened. :D :D :D :D :D Its insanity to pursue an ideology that can only end in catastrophe - especially the way we are doing by accelerating growth with mass immigration - if we do not reign the stupidity of the major parties, corporations and unions in fast the country is in deep shite. 8-) 8-) What will the pursuit of your ideology end in? What is your progressive ideology about? What are we progressing to? How and when will we know we are there? If you plan on living another 10-20 years, you'll live thru it, with the rest of us!

Ah, I see, you mean an Abbott government.
Phew. I thought for a moment that you were one of those brainless progs who just want whetever they can't have.

Prevailing wrote on Jul 26^th, 2012 at 5:15pm:

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 5:13pm: Prevailing wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 5:09pm: BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 4:59pm: Prevailing wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 4:44pm: BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 26th, 2012 at 4:33pm: [quote author=5C676E616A504D0F0 link=1343113505/35#35 date=1343217624]Paul Ehrlich, The Limits to Growth (1972). Still hasn't happened. :D :D :D :D :D Americans stopped growing their attitude 2 seconds after they saw 9-11 on global tv! Lol, that was pretty funny how fast they stopped growing that shite!! All of a sudden, "...nah, like,...that's not allowed... nah, biolgoical weapons are not fair y'all,... nah nah nah that's like against the rules man of decency and apple-pie and shite!!!  :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*  ;D Yeh, the limits to growth haven't been reached.....................  ::) .....................says shane the crack smokin' liberal voter!!  :-[/quote] Unlike you we realize that only when we stop subsidizing and protecting unsustainable economies and populations like china India and Africa and stop our insane immigration program can we start moving in a sustainable direction...ready to abandon the dark and embrace the light yet...::):D Sure you're not a racist prevailing?  :o :o Yeh...thats why we believe in the same legal rights for All Australian citizens not just the White ones...redundant argument from an admitted racist free trade advocate and supporter of anti environment policies..,. Lol, prevailing is talking about 'redundant' arguments now! How many members in your RISE UP PARTY nowadays dood????  ;) ;) A little more than you might suspect...

too afraid to tell arya??  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D  ::) ::)  :D

Big Donger wrote on Jul 26^th, 2012 at 10:41am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 6:22pm: John Smith wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:46pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:14pm: perceptions_now wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:13pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 5:00pm: BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:49pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:44pm: BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:25pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 25th, 2012 at 4:09pm: Solutions? It does mean solutions will have to be found to the predicaments we have put ourselves in, yes! But, then, that is evolution so....  ;D  ;) ;) Well, it might be trendy and cool to 'rally against the system, man,' but pragmatic solutions are required when problems are identified. gO FOR IT THEN!  ;) ;) The only solution (that I can come up with at this stage) is to encourage recycling further, and hope in the future technology can help firms to manufacture products from recyclable material. Because, the way business and money operates, it cannot but 'grow.' Growth is rooted in the very fundamentals of business. That has been the way it has been presented, BUT IT IS AN IMPOSSIBILITY, IN REALITY, OVER TIME, as we are now finding out! How can you operate a business without having 'growth'? why must you have growth? If the banks make $3 billion profit a year, why is that not enough? why must they screw everything and everyone to try and make that 3 become 6 become 16 ...... Regardless of the profit margins of banks or any company for that matter, businesses must make a profit from their sales. They must receive more money from their sales than they spend on their expenditures. Otherwise, they'll eventually go bankrupt and there won't be anything to sell. Sure, but why do they need growth? Businesses existed before capitalism - back when lending money with interest (or ursury) carried a penalty, in some places, of death. Only the financial sector needs growth - without compound interest, the incentive to loan money disappears. This is why earlier economic thinkers placed their focus on the state as central lender/planner, but as you've pointed out, this is inefficient as well. Or just plain corrupt. Without capital, the markets would be stuffed. But without checks and balances, capital will be stuffed. This is why the post-war institutions of the IMF, World Bank, etc, were created: to protect money. If you protect money, you protect states and their debt. If a state's interest bill goes sky-high, everyone is stuffed - even, as we've seen in Ireland and Greece, the system as a whole. And that's when you get revolutions and wars. The solution has to involve the global financial system. The Friedmanite Washington Consensus of the past 40 years - the focus on supply (free trade and market rule) - has been a dangerous experiment, but clearly, it's not over yet. Prevailing's solution of protectionism can't work in the current economic setting. Protectionism worked in the post-war era because the global financial system used a gold standard for currency. This placed limits on the borrowing and spending of states. Also, for what it was, there was a General Agreement on Trade and Tariffs (GATT). As a multilateral framework, GATT was ineffective, but countries did negotiate tariffs bilaterally. That was the point. On their own, tariffs do nothing except tax imports. With agreements in place, states produce what they're good at. They sell what they've got a surplus of and buy what they need. This did leave the developing, cash crop economies at a loss, and that was the problem with the old model. Developing states borrowed money from developed (and oil rich) states to develop. This led to the loans crisis of the early 1980s, and the system came crashing down - again, a problem of capital. In a global economy, only very powerful states can determine their own economies. Mind you, this always involves their satelite states and dependants. US economic policy has always relied heavily on Latin America, Europe, and now, China. Therefore, the solution can only be transnational. The problem is, capitalism is steered by hegemonic states who will always resist - with force - anyone else grabbing their market share. The Dutch did it, Britain did it, Amerika does it, and China will do it before long. It's called gunship diplomacy, and ultimately, this is where all growth leads - to the systemic imbalances that lead to war. This is why any attempt at a solution - even if you could get all the world's leaders sitting down at a table - is doomed to failure. If even minute taxes on transnational financial speculation are scoffed at, we're doomed. Remember how Bob Brown was howled down for suggesting some form of international decision-making body? We're buggered.

Critique of growth and capitalism number 50,000,000,000.

Proposed solutions to growth and capitalism 0.

Karnal, the financial sector gave us modern medicine: a continuing evolution!!

You might say this was taxpayer money but taxpayer money is invented by the concept of a tax base.... and where does that come from???

For bugger all gain why would you bother investigating the secrets of life to eventually make medicines and technolgies that allow the exploitation of such secrets??

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-RmoP143EEDI/UBkUI2UjKEI/AAAAAAABUbI/cUs4U2oc6jg/s1600/theo2.jpg

Soren wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 9:42pm:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-RmoP143EEDI/UBkUI2UjKEI/AAAAAAABUbI/cUs4U2oc6jg/s1600/theo2.jpg

Chuckle, Chuckle, Chuckle!

I'll pay that one!

How power outage affects world's image of India
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/how-power-outage-affects-world-s-image-of-india-250088