I guess we shouldn't be surprised that the only panelist on Q & A last night to try to justify torture was the foreign editor of The Australian, Greg Sheridan. Even the ex-CIA man said torture was morally wrong and indefensible.

Rupert would be proud of you, Greg.

Torture gets results.  Morals don't.

... wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 10:12am:

Torture gets results.  Morals don't.

As the actual CIA guy who has had actual experience with torture said "torture doesnt work". Ppl will say anything to get it to stop.

SOB

Its an interesting issue.

Human nature always thinks torture or the threat of torture will bring out the truth.

It certainly gets them to talk, but the talk is untruthful for 2 reasons.
a) They'll say whatever the torturer wants to hear to make him stop.
b) For terrorists, no torture would be worse than what would happen to him and family if he did blab.

Sheridan was certainly put in his place, but I doubt he'll change his opinion.

... wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 10:12am:

Torture gets results.  Morals don't.

What results has torture got ?

... wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 10:12am:

Torture gets results.  Morals don't.

What a wonderful insight into the reactionary mind. Anything that "gets results" (whatever that means) is acceptable, apparently. Morality is dispensible.

The philosophy of tyrants and mass murderers down the ages.

Doctor Jolly wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 10:19am:

... wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 10:12am: Torture gets results.  Morals don't. What results has torture got ?

You think the findings of all military/intelligence interrogations are printed in the local paper for your reading pleasure?  ::)

Peter Freedman wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 10:23am:

... wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 10:12am: Torture gets results.  Morals don't. What a wonderful insight into the reactionary mind. Anything that "gets results" (whatever that means) is acceptable, apparently. Morality is dispensible. The philosophy of tyrants and mass murderers down the ages.

When the stakes are high, you do what it takes.

Unless of course being "a nice guy" is more important to you than the lives of everyone you hold dear?

Peter Freedman wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 10:09am:

I guess we shouldn't be surprised that the only panelist on Q & A last night to try to justify torture was the foreign editor of The Australian, Greg Sheridan. Even the ex-CIA man said torture was morally wrong and indefensible. Rupert would be proud of you, Greg.

You'd expect him to be a total jerk, and he was. He tried to justify torture, but up against the CIA man who's been in the thick of it, he failed miserably, but as you said Rupert would be proud of him, as would George W, little Johnny and Barry.

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 10:37am:

Peter Freedman wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 10:09am: I guess we shouldn't be surprised that the only panelist on Q & A last night to try to justify torture was the foreign editor of The Australian, Greg Sheridan. Even the ex-CIA man said torture was morally wrong and indefensible. Rupert would be proud of you, Greg. You'd expect him to be a total jerk, and he was. He tried to justify torture, but up against the CIA man who's been in the thick of it, he failed miserably, but as you said Rupert would be proud of him, as would George W, little Johnny and Barry.

and tony

SOB

... wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 10:27am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 10:19am: ... wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 10:12am: Torture gets results.  Morals don't. What results has torture got ? You think the findings of all military/intelligence interrogations are printed in the local paper for your reading pleasure?  ::)

If that posting was a horse you'd have to shoot it....

So you have no idea why you think the way you do, but you still think it. That makes sense.

... wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 10:27am:

Doctor Jolly wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 10:19am: ... wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 10:12am: Torture gets results.  Morals don't. What results has torture got ? You think the findings of all military/intelligence interrogations are printed in the local paper for your reading pleasure?  ::)

translation: You dont know ?

Peter Freedman wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 11:10am:

... wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 10:27am: Doctor Jolly wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 10:19am: ... wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 10:12am: Torture gets results.  Morals don't. What results has torture got ? You think the findings of all military/intelligence interrogations are printed in the local paper for your reading pleasure?  ::) If that posting was a horse you'd have to shoot it.... So you have no idea why you think the way you do, but you still think it. That makes sense.

Uhuh.  Good one.

I really hate to play the ol' rubber/glue gambit, but you think torture "doesn't work"..........why? 

Can I take a guess at the answer?

Because you think it sounds "nice".

... wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 10:12am:

Torture gets results.  Morals don't.

So you would be willing to preform in testing experiments to prove this?

Doctor Jolly wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 11:34am:

... wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 10:27am: Doctor Jolly wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 10:19am: ... wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 10:12am: Torture gets results.  Morals don't. What results has torture got ? You think the findings of all military/intelligence interrogations are printed in the local paper for your reading pleasure?  ::) translation: You dont know ?

Translation: I am no fool, so won't be sent on a fools errand.

Peter Freedman wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 11:10am:

... wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 10:27am: Doctor Jolly wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 10:19am: ... wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 10:12am: Torture gets results.  Morals don't. What results has torture got ? You think the findings of all military/intelligence interrogations are printed in the local paper for your reading pleasure?  ::) If that posting was a horse you'd have to shoot it.... So you have no idea why you think the way you do, but you still think it. That makes sense.

Tolerator is a brain washed sheeple. I think he listens to Alan Jones too much.

The reason that the US continue with torture is that they can't lose face. Under Obama more detainees have been killed than under George W Bush, better dead than make him look like a fool.

Watch this from people who know about torture.

http://assange.rt.com/begg-qureshi-episode-five/

What are the ratios of innocent/guilty in torture cases?

The CIA agent said he believes the person he was ordered to torture was actually innocent.

A lot of military people have said that torture does not work and just encourages the enemy to employ similar methods.

Evil islamic extremist christian racist has a dastradly scheme - a small nuclear device planted at the AFL grand final battered women and puppy dog refuge.  The only thing that can stop detonation is the disarmament code, that only he knows.

You've tried saying "please" and even "pretty please" but he still won't give up the code and the clock is counting down.

Whadda you do?

What DO you DO?

... wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 11:58am:

Evil islamic extremist christian racist has a dastradly scheme - a small nuclear device planted at the AFL grand final battered women and puppy dog refuge.  The only thing that can stop detonation is the disarmament code, that only he knows. You've tried saying "please" and even "pretty please" but he still won't give up the code and the clock is counting down. Whadda you do? What DO you DO?

If you actually believed that, you would evacuate the stadium, not try to play die hard.

freediver wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 12:02pm:

... wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 11:58am: Evil islamic extremist christian racist has a dastardly scheme - a small nuclear device planted at the AFL grand final an unknown location in the heart of the city. The only thing that can stop detonation is the disarmament code, that only he knows. You've tried saying "please" and even "pretty please" but he still won't give up the code and the clock is counting down.  There's just minutes left - no time to evacuate. Whadda you do? What DO you DO? If you actually believed that, you would evacuate the stadium, not try to play die hard.

Edited the story slightly.

Whadda you do?

What DO you DO?

... wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 11:58am:

Evil islamic extremist christian racist has a dastradly scheme - a small nuclear device planted at the AFL grand final battered women and puppy dog refuge.  The only thing that can stop detonation is the disarmament code, that only he knows. You've tried saying "please" and even "pretty please" but he still won't give up the code and the clock is counting down. Whadda you do? What DO you DO?

Take him to the refuge and sit there with him. Talking.

SOB

... wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 11:58am:

Evil islamic extremist christian racist has a dastradly scheme - a small nuclear device planted at the AFL grand final battered women and puppy dog refuge.  The only thing that can stop detonation is the disarmament code, that only he knows. You've tried saying "please" and even "pretty please" but he still won't give up the code and the clock is counting down. Whadda you do? What DO you DO?

Seems like you watch too much television/Hollywood movies.

What do you think the likelihod of such a scenario is?

Would you base a torture policy on a scenario that is very unlikely to ever happen?

That's the situation.

Whadda you do?

What DO you DO?

... wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 12:32pm:

That's the situation. Whadda you do? What DO you DO?

already answered:

Take him to the refuge and sit there with him. Talking.

Heh how do you know you have the right guy? What if its the wrong guy and he makes something up to get you to stop torturing him?

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 12:42pm:

... wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 12:32pm: That's the situation. Whadda you do? What DO you DO? already answered: Take him to the refuge and sit there with him. Talking. Heh how do you know you have the right guy? What if its the wrong guy and he makes something up to get you to stop torturing him? SOB

You just know.

the clock is ticking - hundreds of thousands are going to die in a few minutes if you can't make him talk.  You've already tried asking nicely.

Whadda you do?

What DO you DO?

... wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 12:45pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 12:42pm: ... wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 12:32pm: That's the situation. Whadda you do? What DO you DO? already answered: Take him to the refuge and sit there with him. Talking. Heh how do you know you have the right guy? What if its the wrong guy and he makes something up to get you to stop torturing him? SOB You just know. the clock is ticking - hundreds of thousands are going to die in a few minutes if you can't make him talk.  You've already tried asking nicely. Whadda you do? What DO you DO?

torturing is no more likely to get you a correct code, than asking nicely.

Picture this...
You torture him. He says "ok, ok Ill tell you the code, its 1234".  You phone through to the G and they type in 1234. Boom.  Its the early detonation code.

End of torture.

No terrorist bomb Ive ever heard of has a code to disarm it anyway.

Doctor Jolly wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 12:48pm:

... wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 12:45pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 12:42pm: ... wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 12:32pm: That's the situation. Whadda you do? What DO you DO? already answered: Take him to the refuge and sit there with him. Talking. Heh how do you know you have the right guy? What if its the wrong guy and he makes something up to get you to stop torturing him? SOB You just know. the clock is ticking - hundreds of thousands are going to die in a few minutes if you can't make him talk.  You've already tried asking nicely. Whadda you do? What DO you DO? torturing is no more likely to get you a correct code, than asking nicely. Picture this... You torture him. He says "ok, ok Ill tell you the code, its 1234".  You phone through to the G and they type in 1234. Boom.  Its the early detonation code. End of torture. No terrorist bomb Ive ever heard of has a code to disarm it anyway.

And you are the worlds foremost authority on terrorist bombs are you?  I've you haven't heard of it, it obviously doesn't exist!

Anyway, i can see I'll only ever get flipping and flopping, searching for lopholes from you rubes.  So rather than waiting for a straight answre that will enable me to segue into my point, so I'll just cut to the chase:

DESPERATE TIMES CALL FOR DESPERATE MEASURES. 

Taking options off the table only limits your own ability to get things done. 

... wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 1:03pm:

Doctor Jolly wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 12:48pm: ... wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 12:45pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 12:42pm: ... wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 12:32pm: That's the situation. Whadda you do? What DO you DO? already answered: Take him to the refuge and sit there with him. Talking. Heh how do you know you have the right guy? What if its the wrong guy and he makes something up to get you to stop torturing him? SOB You just know. the clock is ticking - hundreds of thousands are going to die in a few minutes if you can't make him talk.  You've already tried asking nicely. Whadda you do? What DO you DO? torturing is no more likely to get you a correct code, than asking nicely. Picture this... You torture him. He says "ok, ok Ill tell you the code, its 1234".  You phone through to the G and they type in 1234. Boom.  Its the early detonation code. End of torture. No terrorist bomb Ive ever heard of has a code to disarm it anyway. And you are the worlds foremost authority on terrorist bombs are you?  I've you haven't heard of it, it obviously doesn't exist! Anyway, i can see I'll only ever get flipping and flopping, searching for lopholes from you rubes.  So rather than waiting for a straight answre that will enable me to segue into my point, so I'll just cut to the chase: DESPERATE TIMES CALL FOR DESPERATE MEASURES.  Taking options off the table only limits your own ability to get things done.

If you'd care to listen a senior CIA man has told you that torture does not result in the revealing of the truth.  It just doesnt, and you can provide no examples of where it has.

So as  a "Desperate measure", its about as useful as giving the man tea and biscuits.

The other problem is who decides what are "desperate times" and what are not.  You, may find yourself, through no fault of your own, on the receiving end of torture.  Anyone can if its institutionalised.

Doctor Jolly wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 1:09pm:

... wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 1:03pm: Doctor Jolly wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 12:48pm: ... wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 12:45pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 12:42pm: ... wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 12:32pm: That's the situation. Whadda you do? What DO you DO? already answered: Take him to the refuge and sit there with him. Talking. Heh how do you know you have the right guy? What if its the wrong guy and he makes something up to get you to stop torturing him? SOB You just know. the clock is ticking - hundreds of thousands are going to die in a few minutes if you can't make him talk.  You've already tried asking nicely. Whadda you do? What DO you DO? torturing is no more likely to get you a correct code, than asking nicely. Picture this... You torture him. He says "ok, ok Ill tell you the code, its 1234".  You phone through to the G and they type in 1234. Boom.  Its the early detonation code. End of torture. No terrorist bomb Ive ever heard of has a code to disarm it anyway. And you are the worlds foremost authority on terrorist bombs are you?  I've you haven't heard of it, it obviously doesn't exist! Anyway, i can see I'll only ever get flipping and flopping, searching for lopholes from you rubes.  So rather than waiting for a straight answre that will enable me to segue into my point, so I'll just cut to the chase: DESPERATE TIMES CALL FOR DESPERATE MEASURES.  Taking options off the table only limits your own ability to get things done.  If you'd care to listen a senior CIA man has told you that torture does not result in the revealing of the truth.  It just doesnt, and you can provide no examples of where it has. So as  a "Desperate measure", its about as useful as giving the man tea and biscuits. The other problem is who decides what are "desperate times" and what are not.  You, may find yourself, through no fault of your own, on the receiving end of torture.  Anyone can if its institutionalised.

Now we're adding conditions where previously there were none. 

From the opening post we hear that torture is "indefensible" implying it has no use, anywhere, ever. 

I disagree with that.  It'll take more than 1 born-again ex-cia man to change my mind.  It just sounds like more softcockery from the wads who brought you such bullshit as "violence never solves anything" and "real men walk away". 

Of course if it helps you "win" you could always slippery-slope that into me supporting torture for jay walking, littering and getting the missus to tell me what she got me for christmas. 

*shrugs*

What is it with right-wingers that they think they know better than experts in the field.

Doctor Jolly wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 1:35pm:

What is it with right-wingers that they think they know better than experts in the field.

Would you have trusted this man on say...WMD's in Iraq?

But suddenly he is the gospel, and no dissenting voices will be heard.  The fact he agrees with your pre-conceived opinion wouldn't have anything to do with that, would it?

Torture is just a pleasant way to while away the time for those in authority.

They used to use it to get you to confess fantasizing about one imaginary god so as to be saved by another.

Frankly that actually makes a hell of a lot more sense than this ticking time bomb sh!t.

People & Governments torture for,
A) Fun
B) To instill fear

The rest is just bullsh!t.

... wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 1:40pm:

Doctor Jolly wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 1:35pm: What is it with right-wingers that they think they know better than experts in the field. Would you have trusted this man on say...WMD's in Iraq? But suddenly he is the gospel, and no dissenting voices will be heard.  The fact he agrees with your pre-conceived opinion wouldn't have anything to do with that, would it?

As you'll notice from my OP in this topic, I was on the fence on this issue.  And still am to some degree, but leaning towards the CIA-mans view until other evidence is produced (which you arent providing)

Quote:

Guantánamo Bay files: Torture gets results, US military insists Camp X-ray authorities defiant in face of official criticism, arguing 'harsh interrogation' yielded valuable leads from 9/11 suspects

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/25/guantanamo-files-qahtani-salahi-torture


Well whadda ya know - now it's one "appeal to authority" fallacy a piece.

Stalemate.

At times torture is justified and has my support.

The safety of the people overrides civil liberties of the individual.

... wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 10:12am:

Torture gets results.  Morals don't.

Once you resolve to engage in torture what is left worth defending?

Once you resolve to engage in torture what is left worth defending?

Once you resolve to engage in torture what is left worth defending?

Andrei.Hicks wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 1:50pm:

At times torture is justified and has my support. The safety of the people overrides civil liberties of the individual.

The short path to totalitarianism and dictatorship. The argument of people who would rather be "safe" than free. Once you start down that road there is no stopping.

Apart from the issue of morality and civilised behaviour, torture fails because it seldom, if ever, produces reliable intelligence, for obvious reasons.

Under torture a prisoner will say whatever he thinks his interrogators want to hear. If he doesn't have the information, he'll make it up.

And if he is a trained terrorist he will be able to resist torture, or figure out how to drip feed just enough information to keep his torturers happy.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 1:50pm:

At times torture is justified and has my support. The safety of the people overrides civil liberties of the individual.

So what process do you use to justify certain times?

... wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 1:44pm:

Quote: Guantánamo Bay files: Torture gets results, US military insists Camp X-ray authorities defiant in face of official criticism, arguing 'harsh interrogation' yielded valuable leads from 9/11 suspects http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/25/guantanamo-files-qahtani-salahi-torture Well whadda ya know - now it's one "appeal to authority" fallacy a piece. Stalemate.

This is what the cia guy on Q&A said. The only people supporting torture are the people who originally authorised it, so as not to tarnish their legacy.

Doctor Jolly wrote on May 23^rd, 2012 at 11:16am:

... wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 1:44pm: Quote: Guantánamo Bay files: Torture gets results, US military insists Camp X-ray authorities defiant in face of official criticism, arguing 'harsh interrogation' yielded valuable leads from 9/11 suspects http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/25/guantanamo-files-qahtani-salahi-torture Well whadda ya know - now it's one "appeal to authority" fallacy a piece. Stalemate. This is what the cia guy on Q&A said. The only people supporting torture are the people who originally authorised it, so as not to tarnish their legacy.

I think it's above his capacity to speak in such absolutes. 

Doctor Jolly wrote on May 23^rd, 2012 at 11:16am:

... wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 1:44pm: Quote: Guantánamo Bay files: Torture gets results, US military insists Camp X-ray authorities defiant in face of official criticism, arguing 'harsh interrogation' yielded valuable leads from 9/11 suspects http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/25/guantanamo-files-qahtani-salahi-torture Well whadda ya know - now it's one "appeal to authority" fallacy a piece. Stalemate. This is what the cia guy on Q&A said. The only people supporting torture are the people who originally authorised it, so as not to tarnish their legacy.

Those and a few other nut jobs. Well, you'd have to be to nutty, wouldn't you?

Doctor Jolly wrote on May 23^rd, 2012 at 11:16am:

... wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 1:44pm: Quote: Guantánamo Bay files: Torture gets results, US military insists Camp X-ray authorities defiant in face of official criticism, arguing 'harsh interrogation' yielded valuable leads from 9/11 suspects http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/25/guantanamo-files-qahtani-salahi-torture Well whadda ya know - now it's one "appeal to authority" fallacy a piece. Stalemate. This is what the cia guy on Q&A said. The only people supporting torture are the people who originally authorised it, so as not to tarnish their legacy.

And another group - did he say "and their patsys" or something like that?

SOB

As an aside, wasnt Q&A great without any politicians on!