Is religiosity an expression of narcissistic sensibility?

In an early scene of the move "Samsara", the monk Tashi, is extricated from a cave in which he has been meditating for years. A senior monk fears that Tashi has succumbed to a craving for enlightenment and has strayed from the middle way. This proves to be true, as his desire, once piqued, expresses itself as sexual craving and soon he leaves the monastery after falling in love with Pema - a young, beautiful local woman. His secular life starts off well, but eventually unravels leaving him unable to escape the suffering of samsara and unable to return to his monastic life.

Is Yadda an obsessive ?      ;)             ;D

I guess so.



Dictionary;
preoccupy = = dominate or engross the mind, to the exclusion of other thoughts.

Yadda wrote on May 6^th, 2012 at 2:28pm:

Is Yadda an obsessive ?      ;)             ;D I guess so. Dictionary; preoccupy = = dominate or engross the mind, to the exclusion of other thoughts.

And so the monk failed.

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 6^th, 2012 at 2:45pm:

And so the monk failed.

Meditation, is the practice of focusing our attention.

Is learning to keenly focus our attention a failure ?




The monk didn't learn how to control [his] desire,   ....that, is a failure, in many of us.

And that particular failure in us, always has a particular cost.

Yes ?

Yadda wrote on May 6^th, 2012 at 2:52pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 6th, 2012 at 2:45pm: And so the monk failed. Meditation, is the practice of focusing our attention. Is learning to keenly focus our attention a failure ? The monk didn't learn how to control [his] desire,   ....that, is a failure, in many of us. And that particular failure in us, always has a particular cost. Yes ?

The monk failed because his obsession with enlightenment drove him from detachment. His narcissism fuelled his arrogant obsession.

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 6^th, 2012 at 12:16pm:

Is religiosity an expression of narcissistic sensibility? In an early scene of the move "Samsara", the monk Tashi, is extricated from a cave in which he has been meditating for years. A senior monk fears that Tashi has succumbed to a craving for enlightenment and has strayed from the middle way. This proves to be true, as his desire, once piqued, expresses itself as sexual craving and soon he leaves the monastery after falling in love with Pema - a young, beautiful local woman. His secular life starts off well, but eventually unravels leaving him unable to escape the suffering of samsara and unable to return to his monastic life.

Surely, the attainment of enlightenment [if it can be attained].....
1/ surely, seeking enlightenment, is NOT a 'middle way'.
2/ and seeking enlightenment, is a worthy goal ???

Or, is seeking enlightenment, not a worthy path ?    [....i jest]

Isn't to be on the path to enlightenment, to be on the 'correct' path ?

Yadda wrote on May 6^th, 2012 at 3:08pm:

1/ surely, seeking enlightenment, is NOT a 'middle way'.

The middle way, is the common way, the well trodden way ?

Yes ?


Wouldn't seeking enlightenment be a 'goat path' ?    less distinct, less well trodden ?   i.e. not the 'middle way'.


e.g.
Matthew 7:13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Yadda wrote on May 6^th, 2012 at 3:08pm:

Surely, the attainment of enlightenment [if it can be attained]..... 1/ surely, seeking enlightenment, is NOT a 'middle way'. 2/ and seeking enlightenment, is a worthy goal ??? Or, is seeking enlightenment, not a worthy path ?    [....i jest] Isn't to be on the path to enlightenment, to be on the 'correct' path ?

The seeking of enlightenment, in the Buddhist tradition, can only be achieved by the cessation of craving, which includes not indulging in ascetic practises that drive the monk from detachment due to obsession.

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 6^th, 2012 at 3:17pm:

Yadda wrote on May 6th, 2012 at 3:08pm: Surely, the attainment of enlightenment [if it can be attained]..... 1/ surely, seeking enlightenment, is NOT a 'middle way'. 2/ and seeking enlightenment, is a worthy goal ??? Or, is seeking enlightenment, not a worthy path ?    [....i jest] Isn't to be on the path to enlightenment, to be on the 'correct' path ? The seeking of enlightenment, in the Buddhist tradition, can only be achieved by the cessation of craving, which includes not indulging in ascetic practises that drive the monk from detachment due to obsession.

Yadda paraphrases;

The way, the path, to enlightenment, is to not look for enlightenment.
Because to look for enlightenment, is to express a form of desire or a 'craving' [and this is an 'obsession' too].

???

:)      ;D

Yadda wrote on May 6^th, 2012 at 3:23pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 6th, 2012 at 3:17pm: Yadda wrote on May 6th, 2012 at 3:08pm: Surely, the attainment of enlightenment [if it can be attained]..... 1/ surely, seeking enlightenment, is NOT a 'middle way'. 2/ and seeking enlightenment, is a worthy goal ??? Or, is seeking enlightenment, not a worthy path ?    [....i jest] Isn't to be on the path to enlightenment, to be on the 'correct' path ? The seeking of enlightenment, in the Buddhist tradition, can only be achieved by the cessation of craving, which includes not indulging in ascetic practises that drive the monk from detachment due to obsession. Yadda paraphrases; The way, the path, to enlightenment, is not to look for enlightenment. Because to look for enlightenment, is to express a desire or a 'craving' [and this is an 'obsession' too]. ??? :)      ;D

Hence the Buddhist adage that the middle way is thinner than the edge of a blade.

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 6^th, 2012 at 3:24pm:

Yadda wrote on May 6th, 2012 at 3:23pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on May 6th, 2012 at 3:17pm: Yadda wrote on May 6th, 2012 at 3:08pm: Surely, the attainment of enlightenment [if it can be attained]..... 1/ surely, seeking enlightenment, is NOT a 'middle way'. 2/ and seeking enlightenment, is a worthy goal ??? Or, is seeking enlightenment, not a worthy path ?    [....i jest] Isn't to be on the path to enlightenment, to be on the 'correct' path ? The seeking of enlightenment, in the Buddhist tradition, can only be achieved by the cessation of craving, which includes not indulging in ascetic practises that drive the monk from detachment due to obsession. Yadda paraphrases; The way, the path, to enlightenment, is not to look for enlightenment. Because to look for enlightenment, is to express a desire or a 'craving' [and this is an 'obsession' too]. ??? :)      ;D Hence the Buddhist adage that the middle way is thinner than the edge of a blade.

Mmmm, that description conjures a sharp visual,  ....err, edge.         ;)

Yadda wrote on May 6^th, 2012 at 3:29pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 6th, 2012 at 3:24pm: Yadda wrote on May 6th, 2012 at 3:23pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on May 6th, 2012 at 3:17pm: Yadda wrote on May 6th, 2012 at 3:08pm: Surely, the attainment of enlightenment [if it can be attained]..... 1/ surely, seeking enlightenment, is NOT a 'middle way'. 2/ and seeking enlightenment, is a worthy goal ??? Or, is seeking enlightenment, not a worthy path ?    [....i jest] Isn't to be on the path to enlightenment, to be on the 'correct' path ? The seeking of enlightenment, in the Buddhist tradition, can only be achieved by the cessation of craving, which includes not indulging in ascetic practises that drive the monk from detachment due to obsession. Yadda paraphrases; The way, the path, to enlightenment, is not to look for enlightenment. Because to look for enlightenment, is to express a desire or a 'craving' [and this is an 'obsession' too]. ??? :)      ;D Hence the Buddhist adage that the middle way is thinner than the edge of a blade. Mmmm, that description conjures a sharp visual,  ....err, edge.         ;)

Matthew 19:24
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25  When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26  But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.


;D

Are you detached from religiosity?

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 6^th, 2012 at 3:51pm:

Are you detached from religiosity?

Define religiosity.

;D





What do you think NoN ?

Is Yadda detached from religiosity?




I do not see myself as religiously ceremonial, but i try to keep the Sabbath.

But i do so, imperfectly, i think.

I've always been a fly by the seat of my pants kinda person,   ....just like 'Vivian' [P.W.].

Can you believe that ?    ;D

Yadda wrote on May 6^th, 2012 at 4:32pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 6th, 2012 at 3:51pm: Are you detached from religiosity? Define religiosity.

Characterised by excessive religious expression...

Meditation is not a part of religiosity, it's a technique.

Quote:

In our private meeting, a Christian quoted to me an inscription of King Ashoka, which speaks of how intolerance towards other religions can destroy one's own religion; how the prosperity of a religion is linked to respect for other religions.

The Dalai Lama
http://hhdl.dharmakara.net/hhdlquotes2.html

Some people stand out from the crowd because of their "absence of Narcissism" aka humilitas

The Dalai Lama is one. Pope John Paul II was another.

Grey wrote on May 6^th, 2012 at 5:05pm:

Meditation is not a part of religiosity, it's a technique.

Meditation can be a 'doorway' for our perceptions.




And meditation can be a form of 'devotion'.

And so can, the way we live our lives.

e.g.
We may 'devote' ourselves, to our families, or to a sport, or to some hobby, or to a 'lifestyle'.

All of those things are all a form of meditation, in the way that we apply ourselves, to them.


Matthew 22:36
Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38  This is the first and great commandment.


Dictionary;
devotion = =
1 love, loyalty, or enthusiasm for a person or activity.
2 religious worship or observance.





+++

And 'religion' ?

What is religion ?

I once heard someone say that our life, is our 'religion'.

I accept that definition.

And if you can also accept that definition, then in a sense, we all express a 'religious' aspect, in the way that we live our lives.

muso wrote on May 7^th, 2012 at 10:33am:

Quote: In our private meeting, a Christian quoted to me an inscription of King Ashoka, ...which speaks of how intolerance towards other religions can destroy one's own religion; how the prosperity of a religion is linked to respect for other religions. The Dalai Lama http://hhdl.dharmakara.net/hhdlquotes2.html Some people stand out from the crowd because of their "absence of Narcissism" aka humilitas The Dalai Lama is one. Pope John Paul II was another.

And people stand out from the crowd because of their denial of reality, and because of their open embrace of falsehood.

We commonly call such people, LIARS.




+++



Quote:

Dalai Lama Defends Islam As Peaceful Religion July 13th 2008 Bethlehem, PA, USA, 13 July 2008 (By Michael Rubinkam, AP) - The Dalai Lama said Sunday that "it's totally wrong, unfair" to call Islam a violent religion.

http://www.dalailama.com/news/post/247-dalai-lama-defends-islam-as-peaceful-religion






Do you really, really, believe this assertion, from Buddhist, the Dalai Lama ???


Read up on the history of Buddhism in Afghanistan,

"Buddhism in Afghanistan has a long history. Many monuments, such as the famous Buddhas of Bamyan, testify to the Buddhist culture in Afghanistan. It was during Ashoka's reign that Buddhism was introduced to what later became Afghanistan.....Many of the Iranian forebearers of the Pashtuns, including the Scythians followed Buddhism UNTIL THE ARRIVAL OF ISLAM. Currently, there are a few Buddhists in Afghanistan, PROBABLY NUMBERING 0.3% OF THIS ISLAMIC COUNTRY."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_Afghanistan


Google,
Buddhism afghanistan


IMO, the Dalai Lama is a person living in, embracing denial.

Is he who embraces falsehood, lies, and deception, a person, on the path to enlightenment ??



If true religion, is the/a search for TRUTH....

And if Buddhism is a religion based in TRUTH....

And if the Dalai Lama then comes out, and asserts ISLAM is a peaceful religion, then i would suggest, that for the Dalai Lama to make such a statement [in the face of irrefutable facts to the contrary], the Dalai Lama is clearly telling an un-truth.

And this circumstance [the 'broadcasting' of this un-truth to the world], i would suggest, is probably because the Dalai Lama HAS AN AGENDA, which is not  being revealed.

Why not???

And what is that agenda???

And, are these at all improper questions, which i pose???




And i ask, that if the Dalai Lama is portrayed as a wise, truth speaker, why would such a man promote such an obvious falsehood to the world?

It seems that once again [in our PC dominated world],

BLACK IS WHITE, AND WHITE IS BLACK.
UP IS DOWN, AND DOWN IS UP.

Where will all of these lies, all end up?

Where will they take us?

For a possible answer to that Q., look at Afghanistan today.





+++

"it's totally wrong, unfair" to call Islam a violent religion.
The Dalai Lama

"....the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood."
ISLAMIC scholar, Sayyid Qutb, .......PROMOTING, JUSTIFYING, ISLAM's VIOLENT JIHAD against those who are NOT moslems.






"......the curse of Allah is on those without Faith."
Koran 2.089


"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98


"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11


"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves....."
Koran 48.29


"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123


"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:...."
Koran 9.111


"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29


"O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter.
Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things."
Koran 9.38, 39



+++



ISLAMIC VIOLENCE TOWARDS THOSE WHO ARE NOT MOSLEMS

That mainstream ISLAMIC doctrine is undeniable.

All of the sects of the moslems, proclaim it.

Being cited.....

e.g. #1
Creed of the sword
September 23, 2006
...the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh.
...Saudi Arabia's most senior cleric also explained that war was never Islam's ancient founder, the prophet Mohammed's, first choice: "He gave three options: either accept Islam, or surrender and pay tax, and they will be allowed to remain in their land, observing their religion under the protection of Muslims." Thus, according to the Grand Mufti, THE THIRD OPTION OF VIOLENCE AGAINST NON-MUSLIMS WAS ONLY A LAST RESORT, IF THEY REFUSED TO CONVERT OR SURRENDER PEACEFULLY TO THE ARMIES OF ISLAM.
...The resulting doctrine of war was described by the great medieval philosopher Ibn Khaldun: "In the Muslim community, the holy war (jihad) is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the (Muslim) mission and the (obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force." (The Muqaddimah)
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/creed-of-the-sword/story-e6frg6n6-1111112254761


e.g. #2
June 26, 2006
The roots of Islamism
".....Islamists believe in the re-ordering of society to secure total submission to a narrow, puritan and fundamentalist interpretation of Islam......
That cleansing process must be accomplished by suicidal violence, because, in the words of Islamism's most influential thinker, Sayyid Qutb, "the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood.".....
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/michael_gove/article679544.ece


e.g. #3
Pakistani cleric: 'We want Islamic law for all Pakistan and then the world. We would like to do this by preaching. But if not then we would use force.'
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/12/pakistani-cleric-we-want-islamic-law-for-all-pakistan-and-then-the-world-we-would-like-to-do-this-by.html



But.....
"it's totally wrong, unfair" to call Islam a violent religion.
The Dalai Lama


Why is the Dalai Lama portraying himself to all the world, as an idiot ???

....could it be that.......???

Some "Atheists" don't bother asking. They just assume that they can interpret Biblical quotations better than Christians.

Some Christians don't bother asking. They just assume that they can interpret verses from the Qur'an better than Muslims.


Quote:

The tree of craving has its roots in ignorance. It grows out of ignorance, and its seeds fall and flourish whenever they find ignorance.

Gautama Buddha

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 6^th, 2012 at 4:55pm:

Yadda wrote on May 6th, 2012 at 4:32pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on May 6th, 2012 at 3:51pm: Are you detached from religiosity? Define religiosity. Characterised by excessive religious expression...

Hmmm.

Perhaps i am NOT detached from religiosity !!!

;D

muso wrote on May 7^th, 2012 at 12:32pm:

Some "Atheists" don't bother asking. They just assume that they can interpret Biblical quotations better than Christians. Some Christians don't bother asking. They just assume that they can interpret verses from the Qur'an better than Muslims. Quote: The tree of craving has its roots in ignorance. It grows out of ignorance, and its seeds fall and flourish whenever they find ignorance. Gautama Buddha

Creed of the sword
September 23, 2006
...the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh.
...Saudi Arabia's most senior cleric also explained that war was never Islam's ancient founder, the prophet Mohammed's, first choice: "He gave three options: either accept Islam, or surrender and pay tax, and they will be allowed to remain in their land, observing their religion under the protection of Muslims." Thus, according to the Grand Mufti, THE THIRD OPTION OF VIOLENCE AGAINST NON-MUSLIMS WAS ONLY A LAST RESORT, IF THEY REFUSED TO CONVERT OR SURRENDER PEACEFULLY TO THE ARMIES OF ISLAM.
...The resulting doctrine of war was described by the great medieval philosopher Ibn Khaldun: "In the Muslim community, the holy war (jihad) is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the (Muslim) mission and the (obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force." (The Muqaddimah)
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/creed-of-the-sword/story-e6frg6n6-1111112254761


Pakistani cleric: 'We want Islamic law for all Pakistan and then the world. We would like to do this by preaching. But if not then we would use force.'
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/12/pakistani-cleric-we-want-islamic-law-for-all-pakistan-and-then-the-world-we-would-like-to-do-this-by.html





muso,

Is denial, of what you do not wish to accept [as true], the beginning of wisdom ???

Is living a life of denial [of what is true], the path to enlightenment ???

Is the tolerance of the criminally intolerant a 'higher' form of tolerance, or is it just another form of idiocy ???





TOLERANCE OF EVIL

"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."
Karl Popper


"Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil."
Thomas Mann

Yadda,

How many actual Muslims have you known as friends with whom you have actually held regular conversations?

Your view of the Muslim religion is a cartoon cutout. Of course there are crazy extremists, just as there are in all walks of life. Most "terrorists" are not Muslim, and very few Muslims are terrorists.

I still maintain contact with a number of my friends the world over who happen to be Muslim. They are perfectly normal people - not Jihadists.

There are equally xenophobic and exclusionist passages in the Bible. It's all a question of how they are interpreted. 

A bit of tolerance Yadda, Islam is just playing catch-up. Christianity set the bar.

Yadda wrote on May 7^th, 2012 at 12:41pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 6th, 2012 at 4:55pm: Yadda wrote on May 6th, 2012 at 4:32pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on May 6th, 2012 at 3:51pm: Are you detached from religiosity? Define religiosity. Characterised by excessive religious expression... Hmmm. Perhaps i am NOT detached from religiosity !!! ;D

Careful Yadda... Nobody trusts a zealot (sin of pride n'all)... Least not, I'd imagine, an omnibenevolent god?

Grey wrote on May 8^th, 2012 at 12:52am:

A bit of tolerance Yadda, Islam is just playing catch-up. Christianity set the bar.

grey,

That is your opinion.

And you are entitled to it.



Dictionary;
opinion = = a view or judgement not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

muso wrote on May 7^th, 2012 at 5:08pm:

Yadda, How many actual Muslims have you known as friends with whom you have actually held regular conversations?

Zero.






muso wrote on May 7^th, 2012 at 5:08pm:

Your view of the Muslim religion is a cartoon cutout.

That is your opinion muso, and you are entitled to it.

I presume then, that your opinion of me, is that i am uninformed about ISLAM, and about what real moslems believe in their heart ?








muso wrote on May 7^th, 2012 at 5:08pm:

Of course there are crazy extremists, just as there are in all walks of life. Most "terrorists" are not Muslim, and very few Muslims are terrorists.

muso,

To me, in making such an assertion, you are disconnected from reality.

Real ISLAM promotes a [murderous] philosophy, and you deny that.

In the face of mountains of evidence, which contradict your opinion of benign moslems, you choose to defend moslems, and claim they are being misrepresented.

On your own head be it.







THE ENGLISH TRANSLATION, FROM ARABIC...

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123



THE REAL MEANING OF THIS VERSE IN THE ARABIC...
/sarc

"O ye who believe! For your good health, go to the market, and buy ten zuchinnis, and two pumpkins. And have your wife prepare them for your evening meal."
Koran 9.123


Is this what you believe about ISLAM muso ?

That ISLAMIC texts [which i, and many others, say, call for a never ending warfare against unbelievers], are being misrepresented ???




MY OPINION IS THAT......

All moslems [including those who are residing in non-moslem host nations] have the nature [politically], of 'flags in the wind'.

i.e.
Publicly, many moslems will studiously try to reflect the political environment in which they 'travel'.

BUT HERE IS THE TRUTH, muso,

A moslem, is a person who chooses to embrace a philosophy [ISLAM] which tells moslems that it is 'lawful' for moslems, to kill those who do not believe, as they believe.

That is the reality muso.



Today good moslems may claim that they are 'moderate', and tolerant.

But when it suits their purpose [i.e. when Allah provides the 'opportunity'], those good moslems will always revert to type.

And they will then join their Jihad brothers, in murdering those who oppose them.

All moslems, are playing a 'long' game, a deceitful game.





muso,

You claim to have moslem friends, but if you truly knew your moslem friends, you would know that [if they are true moslems] their life, is a life of deceit, towards people such as yourself.

Google,
smile to the face "while our hearts curse them"


"A Study in Muslim Doctrine
...while sincere friendship with non-Muslims is forbidden, insincere friendship - whenever beneficial to Muslims - is not."
http://www.meforum.org/2512/nidal-hasan-fort-hood-muslim-doctrine

"Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them"
Koran 3:28

i.e.
TRUTH
ISLAMIC doctrine teaches *every moslem*, that moslems must not make friends with unbelievers except to "guard yourselves from them": i.e. pretend to be their friends so that you can strengthen yourself against them.




muso.......DO YOUR MOSLEM FRIENDS RESPECT WHAT THE KORAN COMMANDS ???

"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them."
Koran 5.51

DUH, muso, DUH!







muso wrote on May 7^th, 2012 at 5:08pm:

I still maintain contact with a number of my friends the world over who happen to be Muslim. They are perfectly normal people - not Jihadists.

And you obviously believe that your moslem friends are being very candid with you, about how Jihad is a personal spiritual struggle ?

"They are perfectly normal people...."

Wrong muso.

Your friends, are people who choose to embrace ISLAM, its tenets, and its laws.

Perhaps you should study what ISLAM promotes, ......instead of only accepting what your moslem friends tell you about ISLAM ?

Or is that too 'taxing' upon your time ?






muso wrote on May 7^th, 2012 at 5:08pm:

There are equally xenophobic and exclusionist passages in the Bible. It's all a question of how they are interpreted.

Sure muso.

Exodus 15:3
The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

And that is Jesus.
.....on his return.


Revelation 19:11
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

You can't be an expert in Islam without actually listening to Muslims.

Quote:

Psalm 35       35:1 Plead my cause, O LORD, with them that strive with me: fight against them that fight against me.       35:2 Take hold of shield and buckler, and stand up for mine help.       35:3 Draw out also the spear, and stop the way against them that persecute me: say unto my soul, I am thy salvation.

That would be the zucchini or the corn cob, I presume.


Quote:

35:4 Let them be confounded and put to shame that seek after my soul: let them be turned back and brought to confusion that devise my hurt.       35:5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase them.       35:6 Let their way be dark and slippery: and let the angel of the LORD persecute them.       35:7 For without cause have they hid for me their net in a pit, which without cause they have digged for my soul. 35:8 Let destruction come upon him at unawares; and let his net that he hath hid catch himself: into that very destruction let him fall.       35:9 And my soul shall be joyful in the LORD: it shall rejoice in his salvation.

Pretty violent, bigotted stuff, this Christianity? (Of course I won't make that judgement myself without having spoken to a single Christian, but I'm making a point here)

This is a Psalm! These Christians sing about this......They celebrate the bloody death of anybody who is not like them! 

This next one is creepy. I'm a proud Heathen, and I'm certainly not going to meet you after reading this. Your religion wants to kill and Heathens and laugh at them!  :o


Quote:

Psalm 59       59:1 Deliver me from mine enemies, O my God: defend me from them that rise up against me.       59:2 Deliver me from the workers of iniquity, and save me from bloody men. 59:3 For, lo, they lie in wait for my soul: the mighty are gathered against me; not for my transgression, nor for my sin, O LORD. 59:4 They run and prepare themselves without my fault: awake to help me, and behold.       59:5 Thou therefore, O LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel, awake to visit all the heathen: be not merciful to any wicked transgressors. Selah. 59:6 They return at evening: they make a noise like a dog, and go round about the city. 59:7 Behold, they belch out with their mouth: swords are in their lips: for who, say they, doth hear? 59:8 But thou, O LORD, shalt laugh at them; thou shalt have all the heathen in derision.

Quote:

Proverbs 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

You can be imprisoned for that kind of thing. That's child abuse. What kind of rod do Catholic Priests use?

Just look at the obsession with blood in the next passage. Apparently God will not forgive anyone unless something is killed for him in a bloody manner.

These Christians are people who choose to embrace CHRISTIANITY, its tenets, and its laws.

If there was some event that they interpreted as Armageddon, I doubt if they would be very trustworthy.  Choose your friends well. They might be all smiles and cups of tea and biscuits, but come Armageddon,  Christians would slit your throat without the slightest hesitation.


Quote:

Hebrews       9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;       9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.      (9:13-22) (9:13) "For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh." (9:14) "How much more shall the blood of Christ."

Don't bother with foreigners:


Quote:

Matthew: 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

muso wrote on May 9^th, 2012 at 3:22pm:

You can't be an expert in Islam without actually listening to Muslims. Quote: Psalm 35       35:1 Plead my cause, O LORD, with them that strive with me: fight against them that fight against me.       35:2 Take hold of shield and buckler, and stand up for mine help.       35:3 Draw out also the spear, and stop the way against them that persecute me: say unto my soul, I am thy salvation. That would be the zucchini or the corn cob, I presume. [quote]       35:4 Let them be confounded and put to shame that seek after my soul: let them be turned back and brought to confusion that devise my hurt.       35:5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase them.       35:6 Let their way be dark and slippery: and let the angel of the LORD persecute them.       35:7 For without cause have they hid for me their net in a pit, which without cause they have digged for my soul. 35:8 Let destruction come upon him at unawares; and let his net that he hath hid catch himself: into that very destruction let him fall.       35:9 And my soul shall be joyful in the LORD: it shall rejoice in his salvation.

Pretty violent, bigotted stuff, this Christianity? (Of course I won't make that judgement myself without having spoken to a single Christian, but I'm making a point here)

This is a Psalm! These Christians sing about this......They celebrate the bloody death of anybody who is not like them! 

This next one is creepy. I'm a proud Heathen, and I'm certainly not going to meet you after reading this. Your religion wants to kill and Heathens and laugh at them!  :o


Quote:

Psalm 59       59:1 Deliver me from mine enemies, O my God: defend me from them that rise up against me.       59:2 Deliver me from the workers of iniquity, and save me from bloody men. 59:3 For, lo, they lie in wait for my soul: the mighty are gathered against me; not for my transgression, nor for my sin, O LORD. 59:4 They run and prepare themselves without my fault: awake to help me, and behold.       59:5 Thou therefore, O LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel, awake to visit all the heathen: be not merciful to any wicked transgressors. Selah. 59:6 They return at evening: they make a noise like a dog, and go round about the city. 59:7 Behold, they belch out with their mouth: swords are in their lips: for who, say they, doth hear? 59:8 But thou, O LORD, shalt laugh at them; thou shalt have all the heathen in derision.

[/quote]



"Pretty violent, bigotted stuff, this Christianity?"

Oh, very good muso.     ;)



+++

"them that fight against me."
"them that persecute me:"
"them...that seek after my soul:"
"them....that devise my hurt."
"For without cause....they hid for me their net in a pit,"
"without cause they have digged for my soul."
"Deliver me from mine enemies,"
"defend me from them that rise up against me."
"Deliver me from the workers of iniquity,"
"and save me from bloody men."
"they lie in wait for my soul:"
"the mighty are gathered against me; not for my transgression, nor for my sin, O LORD."
"They....prepare themselves without my fault:"


Hey muso,

What unconscionable rascals those Jews are, eh ?

To imagine that they should call on their God, to help them, against those who are oppressing them!

How dare the Jews, ask God to protect them from 'bloody [i.e. violent] men', and their oppressors ?
/sarc off

+++




muso,

You speak of your moslem friends;


muso wrote on May 7^th, 2012 at 5:08pm:

I still maintain contact with a number of my friends the world over who happen to be Muslim. They are perfectly normal people - not Jihadists.

muso,

Is Taqi Usmani [below] also one of your moslem friends ?

Because he counsels fellow moslems to 'preach peace' to their non-moslem friends.....while preaching something else, among the moslem community!



Quote:

Live in peace till strong enough to wage jihad, says UK Deoband scholar to Muslims London, Sept.8 [2007] A Deobandi scholar believes Muslims should preach peace till they are strong enough to undertake a jihad, or a holy war. Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani was quoted by the BBC as saying that Muslims should live peacefully in countries such as Britain, where they have the freedom to practise Islam, only until they gain enough power to engage in battle.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2409833.ece



Psalms 28:2
Hear the voice of my supplications, when I cry unto thee, when I lift up my hands toward thy holy oracle.
3  Draw me not away with the wicked, and with the workers of iniquity, which speak peace to their neighbours, but mischief is in their hearts.
4  Give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavours: give them after the work of their hands; render to them their desert.

Wow!

People who ".....speak peace to their neighbours, but mischief is in their hearts."
......hmmm, now where have i heard that before ???

Not from a respected moslem scholar !!!

A moslem [and a scholar at that], who is promoting lies, and who is encouraging moslems to deceive their non-moslem neighbours and cultural hosts ???

Yadda, wash out your mouth with carbolic soap!!
/sarc off



muso,

The moslems wish to do to us also [i.e. their non-moslem neighbours and cultural hosts], exactly what moslems have been doing to the Jewish people, for centuries.

Speaking peace, .......and planning their moslem treachery, and MURDER.

Moslem treachery ???

Google;
tactical muslim hudna




Psalms 83:1
Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God.
2  For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head.
3  They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones.
4  They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
5  For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee:
6  The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes;
7  Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre;
8  Assur also is joined with them: they have holpen the children of Lot. Selah.


+++



muso,

Please can you tell me what this Koran verse means ?

Coz i'm so slow, and i need to know how many zuchinnis to buy down at the market tomorrow.....

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

Is that 2 zuchinnis, or 4 zuchinnis ???

Hmmmm ?

Coz, its so difficult to understand what ISLAMIC texts mean.
/sarc off


+++


muso,

And always remember, moslems are your friends.

You stand with the moslems, against those who are 'oppressing' moslems [...'oppressing' moslems, by exposing moslem machinations].

Coz you know that your moslem friends are sincere, in all of their communications with you [....their infidel 'friend'].


"...Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98

Yadda wrote on May 9^th, 2012 at 9:21pm:

Oh, very good muso.     ;) ............................. Hey muso, What unconscionable rascals those Jews are, eh ? To imagine that they should call on their God, to help them, against those who are oppressing them! How dare the Jews, ask God to protect them from 'bloody [i.e. violent] men', and their oppressors ? /sarc off +++

Never mind the Jews bit, I know that Christians sing Psalms. I remember Psalm 23 "The Lord is my Shepherd" from school.  Don't try to shift the blame on the Jews again like some latter day Pope.  ;D



Quote:

muso, You speak of your moslem friends; muso wrote on May 7th, 2012 at 5:08pm: I still maintain contact with a number of my friends the world over who happen to be Muslim. They are perfectly normal people - not Jihadists. [quote] muso, Is Taqi Usmani [below] also one of your moslem friends ?

No, I have never heard of him. Is Fred Phelps one of your Christian friends? The Westboro Baptist Church is the one that demonstrates at the funerals of US Marines. 

...and while we're on the subject of extremists, how about Thomas Robb. He's a pastor at the Christian Revival Center who just happens to be the US national director of the knights of the Ku Klux Klan? Another friend of yours? (Well it's just as reasonable assumption that I could be friends with a Muslim extremist)

Then there's Joseph Kony, who proclaims himself the spokesperson of God and a spirit medium. He's another fundamentalist Christian who wants to establish a state based on the Ten Commandments. If you're both spokespersons of God, you must know each other personally? 



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/WBC_20051202_sacco-topeka5.jpg/220px-WBC_20051202_sacco-topeka5.jpg

Getting back to Fred Phelop, he really follows the Bible with zeal, including the Old Testament, which is after all a part of the Christian Bible. Remember that "God hates "Fags", and "Thank God for IED's". You and Fred must share an intimate knowledge of the mind of God, because you both have this amazing capacity to judge others. 


Quote:

muso, Please can you tell me what this Koran verse means ? Coz i'm so slow, and i need to know how many zuchinnis to buy down at the market tomorrow.....

Well that's a new trend. You usually make up your own mind what Qur'an verses mean. Well I'm sorry, I'm not a Moslem, and I'm not even prepared to guess, because, as you have just demonstrated, I am prone to misinterpret verses from the Bible, so I'd do just as badly with verses from the Qur'an.

I hope that you appreciate the humility that I'm showing in believing your interpretation of your own religion. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that Christianity is not some blood-sacrifice obsessed cult with an unhealthy obsession with death.

Of course, I'm sure you have the humility and common sense to ask a follower of that religion what the context is, but even if you do, I doubt if you'll accept any such explanation, because you've set your mind on the pretext that all Muslims are evil. 

You need to work on the humility, and stop judging others. Just who do you think you are to judge others? .............Fred Phelps?

Your Scripture Study for today is Matthew 7.1 (Try to put in in practice) ... and Matthew 23:12


Quote:

And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

You've got some work to do, or else we'll continue this debate in Hell.  ;D

Geeze i get a laugh how all the insecure christians use the atheist thread to sprook their fear of truth. ;D ;D ;)

nairbe wrote on May 11^th, 2012 at 9:30pm:

Geeze i get a laugh how all the insecure christians use the atheist thread to sprook their fear of truth. ;D ;D ;)

Yeah. I also have to laugh @ how theres no xtianity forum just "spirituality".

SOB

muso wrote on May 10^th, 2012 at 11:29am:

Yadda wrote on May 9th, 2012 at 9:21pm: Oh, very good muso.     ;) ............................. Hey muso, What unconscionable rascals those Jews are, eh ? To imagine that they should call on their God, to help them, against those who are oppressing them! How dare the Jews, ask God to protect them from 'bloody [i.e. violent] men', and their oppressors ? /sarc off +++ Never mind the Jews bit, I know that Christians sing Psalms. I remember Psalm 23 "The Lord is my Shepherd" from school. Don't try to shift the blame on the Jews again like some latter day Pope.            ;D

muso,

That Psalm you quoted was from Jewish scripture [....and not exclusively a Christian scripture ].

And in no way was it my intent to denigrate the Jewish people [....in particular.       ;D    ].




My intent in this forum has always been to cast all people, being Christians, or atheists, or Jewish people as being from the same moral mould.

i.e. Corruptible.

A corruption which all of our lives bear witness to.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 12^th, 2012 at 6:11am:

nairbe wrote on May 11th, 2012 at 9:30pm: Geeze i get a laugh how all the insecure christians use the atheist thread to sprook their fear of truth. ;D ;D ;) Yeah. I also have to laugh @ how theres no xtianity forum just "spirituality". SOB

A good question, what is spirituality. Does (as the Christians would insist) it require a religious faith or is spirituality quite separate from religion and just another ideal or practice stolen by xtians when they took power and quashed all opposition?

muso wrote on May 10^th, 2012 at 11:29am:

Quote: muso, Please can you tell me what this Koran verse means ? Coz i'm so slow, and i need to know how many zuchinnis to buy down at the market tomorrow..... Well that's a new trend. You usually make up your own mind what Qur'an verses mean. Well I'm sorry, I'm not a Moslem, and I'm not even prepared to guess, because, as you have just demonstrated, I am prone to misinterpret verses from the Bible, so I'd do just as badly with verses from the Qur'an.

Yes, well, i'm not pleading ignorance in that regard......seeing that i can read and write English, and i know which way is up.

But what is your excuse muso, for ignoring what is happening in front of your nose every day ?
[i.e. i refer to the EVERYDAY persecution, oppression and slaughter, of non-moslems, in many Sharia jurisdictions.              just 1 of 1000's of examples... [url]http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/05/pakistan-hindu-girl-rinkle-kumari-kidnapped-and-forcibly-converted-to-islam.html[/url]

Oh yes, your moslem friends have convinced you of their moslem friendship towards you......even though it is Australian secular law which is protecting you from their true 'affection', and not Sharia Law which is your protection.

But what about that oppression and slaughter, of non-moslems, in many Sharia jurisdictions, doesn't such conduct outrage them, being 'moderate' moslems ???

Why is it that virtuous moslems [including your moslem friends], they will not raise their voices, against such actions, committed in the name of ISLAM ???




IMAGE
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200508/r54561_147958.jpg

Australian Islamic leader defends jihad.
".....Abu Bakr says he does not accept other religions.
"I am telling you that my religion doesn't tolerate other religion. It doesn't tolerate," he said.
"The only one law which needs to spread, it can be here or anywhere else, is Islam." "
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200508/s1430551.htmi

muso wrote on May 10^th, 2012 at 11:29am:

Of course, I'm sure you have the humility and common sense to ask a follower of that religion what the context is, but even if you do, I doubt if you'll accept any such explanation, because you've set your mind on the pretext that all Muslims are evil.  You need to work on the humility, and stop judging others. Just who do you think you are to judge others? .............Fred Phelps? Your Scripture Study for today is Matthew 7.1 (Try to put in in practice) ... and Matthew 23:12 Quote: And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.    You've got some work to do, or else we'll continue this debate in Hell.  ;D

Matthew 7:1
Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Psalms 37:27
Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore.
28  For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

Psalms 15:1
LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?
2  He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.
3  He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour.
4  In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the LORD. He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not.
5  He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved.



Hey muso,

Remember tolerance [not judging wrongdoing] always trumps, standing up for what you know is right.
/sarc off


Revelation 21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26  For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?



+++

Hey muso,

As human beings, if we are walking on the street, and we see some wickedness or violence being perpetrated should we speak out ?      [if a young woman was being assaulted on the street, would you look the other way as you passed by ?]

Should we try to intercede, and protect those who are being oppressed ?

Or, should we look the other way as we pass by [because we are taught not to 'judge' the actions and conduct of others] ?



And if we see something evil in the world, shouldn't we [as human beings] have the courage, to speak up ?

Deuteronomy 25:1
If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.


But hey, you are not a 'judge' of 'right' or 'wrong', are you muso ?

Your opinion, is that you have no right to 'judge' what others do.

Who taught that to you muso ???





Hey muso,

If today you believe that 'silence is golden',   ......when the oppressor comes to your door, who will, or should, speak up for you, or a member of your family ???




"Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil."
Thomas Mann

Yadda wrote on May 12^th, 2012 at 5:08pm:

Yes, well, i'm not pleading ignorance in that regard......seeing that i can read and write English, and i know which way is up.

What a revelation! So that's all there is to it?

Well, I can read and write English too. That makes it easy. I can interpret any part of the Bible or Qur'an by just taking it literally. So that passage from Hebrews actually means that God will not forgive anyone unless something is killed for him in a bloody manner, and Christianity is actually all about blood sacrifice? Makes sense. That would explain what these Americans with the white hoods did. It was all just blood sacrifice for the lord. They were following their religion.

So how often do you stone homosexuals these days? - or heathens? (just as blood sacrifices of course - Jehovah loves all that blood gushing)

Well this makes it much easier. You'd wonder why they actually bother with theologists when everything in religion is  just a question of reading and writing and having a sense of gravity.


Quote:

But what is your excuse muso, for ignoring what is happening in front of your nose every day ? [i.e. i refer to the EVERYDAY persecution, oppression and slaughter, of non-moslems, in many Sharia jurisdictions.              just 1 of 1000's of examples... [url]http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/05/pakistan-hindu-girl-rinkle-kumari-kidnapped-and-forcibly-converted-to-islam.html[/url]

Yes, barbarity seems to go with the territory as far as Abrahamic religion goes. I'd say that it has a lot to do with the concept of forgiveness.  As long as you're spilling blood in the name of Jehovah or Allah, then you are totally forgiven, and if you are regularly forgiven, you can do just about anything you like. I'm sure that the good old boys at the KKK and that evangelical pastor who leads them would agree with that. Just as well they're not all like that.

I don't know about Sharia law, and I don't frequent these wonderfully impartial websites that you love, but I'd hate to live in a state that only supports one religion. You like Jihad Watch? Well you'll love Christian Watch:

http://www.christianwatch.org/
Do you think it could be owned by the same franchise as Jihad Watch?


Quote:

Easter 2012 : “GOOD FRIDAY” –  The Triumph  of  the Christian Mafia  -- One  fussily "mourned" casualty in return for innumerable murders and mass-murders by the Christians

Ooer  :o Somebody is obviously doing some judging in return, and they seem to have found a few planks.


Quote:

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Yes!......  If I were a Christian, I'd pay heed to that. It's very apt.


Quote:

7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

How's that plank in your eye feel?


Quote:

But what is your excuse muso

I have no excuse. I just like to help my brother human beings who happen to be religious, especially when they have something in their eyes.

muso wrote on May 12^th, 2012 at 11:01pm:

Yadda wrote on May 12th, 2012 at 5:08pm: Yes, well, i'm not pleading ignorance in that regard......seeing that i can read and write English, and i know which way is up. What a revelation! So that's all there is to it? Well, I can read and write English too. That makes it easy. I can interpret any part of the Bible or Qur'an by just taking it literally. So that passage from Hebrews actually means that God will not forgive anyone unless something is killed for him in a bloody manner, and Christianity is actually all about blood sacrifice? Makes sense. That would explain what these Americans with the white hoods did. It was all just blood sacrifice for the lord. They were following their religion. So how often do you stone homosexuals these days? - or heathens? (just as blood sacrifices of course - Jehovah loves all that blood gushing) Well this makes it much easier. You'd wonder why they actually bother with theologists when everything in religion is  just a question of reading and writing and having a sense of gravity. Quote:   But what is your excuse muso, for ignoring what is happening in front of your nose every day ? [i.e. i refer to the EVERYDAY persecution, oppression and slaughter, of non-moslems, in many Sharia jurisdictions.              just 1 of 1000's of examples... [url]http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/05/pakistan-hindu-girl-rinkle-kumari-kidnapped-and-forcibly-converted-to-islam.html[/url] Yes, barbarity seems to go with the territory as far as Abrahamic religion goes. I'd say that it has a lot to do with the concept of forgiveness.  As long as you're spilling blood in the name of Jehovah or Allah, then you are totally forgiven, and if you are regularly forgiven, you can do just about anything you like. I'm sure that the good old boys at the KKK and that evangelical pastor who leads them would agree with that. Just as well they're not all like that. I don't know about Sharia law, and I don't frequent these wonderfully impartial websites that you love, but I'd hate to live in a state that only supports one religion. You like Jihad Watch? Well you'll love Christian Watch: http://www.christianwatch.org/ Do you think it could be owned by the same franchise as Jihad Watch? [quote]Easter 2012 : “GOOD FRIDAY” –  The Triumph  of  the Christian Mafia  -- One  fussily "mourned" casualty in return for innumerable murders and mass-murders by the Christians

Ooer  :o Somebody is obviously doing some judging in return, and they seem to have found a few planks.


Quote:

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Yes!......  If I were a Christian, I'd pay heed to that. It's very apt.


Quote:

7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

How's that plank in your eye feel?


Quote:

But what is your excuse muso

I have no excuse. I just like to help my brother human beings who happen to be religious, especially when they have something in their eyes. [/quote]

Y'know Muso, my position is that ALL religion is intolerant; that's the point. All religions are capable of going off at the deep end. The Abrahamic religions all have such a tendency to ultra violence you'd think they worshipped Reggie and Ronnie Kray.

Having said that, I think that denial of a current militant tendency in Islam, or comparing it to Phelps or Kony is a bit silly. There's a 'Jihad' underway and we have ourselves a problem.   

Grey wrote on May 13^th, 2012 at 8:05pm:

Y'know Muso, my position is that ALL religion is intolerant; that's the point. All religions are capable of going off at the deep end. The Abrahamic religions all have such a tendency to ultra violence you'd think they worshipped Reggie and Ronnie Kray. Having said that, I think that denial of a current militant tendency in Islam, or comparing it to Phelps or Kony is a bit silly. There's a 'Jihad' underway and we have ourselves a problem.

What I object to mainly is hypocrisy. Of course Islam has problems, albeit inflated by the media, but so has Christianity.

The problem is that Christianity is too well accepted in our society. It used to be the religion of the establishment of course. However if it was a totally new cult, and the papers got hold of the quotes about blood sacrifice, you can just imagine  what they'd write.

I don't have a problem with anybody following their religion, and the vast majority of Christians and Muslims alike are peaceful human beings. I actually value religions for their cultural value.

I just can't stand "my religion is better than yours" hypocrisy.

muso wrote on May 14^th, 2012 at 2:46pm:

Grey wrote on May 13th, 2012 at 8:05pm: Y'know Muso, my position is that ALL religion is intolerant; that's the point. All religions are capable of going off at the deep end. The Abrahamic religions all have such a tendency to ultra violence you'd think they worshipped Reggie and Ronnie Kray. Having said that, I think that denial of a current militant tendency in Islam, or comparing it to Phelps or Kony is a bit silly. There's a 'Jihad' underway and we have ourselves a problem.    What I object to mainly is hypocrisy. Of course Islam has problems, albeit inflated by the media, but so has Christianity. The problem is that Christianity is too well accepted in our society. It used to be the religion of the establishment of course. However if it was a totally new cult, and the papers got hold of the quotes about blood sacrifice, you can just imagine  what they'd write. I don't have a problem with anybody following their religion, and the vast majority of Christians and Muslims alike are peaceful human beings. I actually value religions for their cultural value. I just can't stand "my religion is better than yours" hypocrisy.

Yes but, I think that anybody who immigrates to Australia should sign a commitment  to uphold the secular values of Australia. Including the complete intellectual and sexual freedom available to women in this country. And the reason I'd like that commitment is almost entirely due to Muslim values. Women in our society have struggled for equality for well over a hundred years. They shouldn't have to start back at square one because of some namby pamby liberal attitudes regarding religious freedom.

What the hell is so wonderful about relgions culture anyway? It's always a wafer and cheap wine, they don't say "this is todays special given to you in remembrance of me" do they. Religious art is in stasis and anyway Michaelangelo could have done a lot better with painting roofs left to his own imaginings. And while the music in black southern baptist churches isn't too bad it's not Miles Davis is it?

Yadda wrote on May 14^th, 2012 at 11:51pm:

Quote: "A Muslim community disproportionately involved in criminal behaviour targeted at non-Islamic people but which refuses to acknowledge any communal responsibility and claims instead to be the victim of a conspiracy;" - Nicolai Sennels

Quote:

".....A Muslim community disproportionately involved in criminal behaviour targeted at non-Islamic people but which refuses to acknowledge any communal responsibility and claims instead to be the victim of a conspiracy; a society that refuses to acknowledge the religious and cultural wellspring of that behaviour and which condemns instead those who express concern about its consequences; where have we heard all this before? Whether in response to threats to life and liberty from within or without, Britain is still sleepwalking off the edge of a cliff." - MELANIE PHILLIPS

http://phillipsblog.dailymail.co.uk/2012/05/ithe-horrific-consequences-of-the-islamophobia-witch-hunt.html




Grey, muso,

You have lost contact with your conscience(s).



Luke 6:39
And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

Yadda, I apologise profusely. I accidentally overwrote your post and then  had to delete it because I lost the original text.

Quote:

Luke 6:39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

The Universe supplied you a big brain in good order Yadda. You're supposed to use it. ;D

muso wrote on May 15^th, 2012 at 8:13am:

Yadda, I apologise profusely. I accidentally overwrote your post and then  had to delete it because I lost the original text.

muso,

Your apology is accepted.

No biggy.

Grey wrote on May 14^th, 2012 at 11:17pm:

muso wrote on May 14th, 2012 at 2:46pm: Grey wrote on May 13th, 2012 at 8:05pm: Y'know Muso, my position is that ALL religion is intolerant; that's the point. All religions are capable of going off at the deep end. The Abrahamic religions all have such a tendency to ultra violence you'd think they worshipped Reggie and Ronnie Kray. Having said that, I think that denial of a current militant tendency in Islam, or comparing it to Phelps or Kony is a bit silly. There's a 'Jihad' underway and we have ourselves a problem.    What I object to mainly is hypocrisy. Of course Islam has problems, albeit inflated by the media, but so has Christianity. The problem is that Christianity is too well accepted in our society. It used to be the religion of the establishment of course. However if it was a totally new cult, and the papers got hold of the quotes about blood sacrifice, you can just imagine  what they'd write. I don't have a problem with anybody following their religion, and the vast majority of Christians and Muslims alike are peaceful human beings. I actually value religions for their cultural value. I just can't stand "my religion is better than yours" hypocrisy. Yes but, I think that anybody who immigrates to Australia should sign a commitment  to uphold the secular values of Australia. Including the complete intellectual and sexual freedom available to women in this country. And the reason I'd like that commitment is almost entirely due to Muslim values. Women in our society have struggled for equality for well over a hundred years. They shouldn't have to start back at square one because of some namby pamby liberal attitudes regarding religious freedom. What the hell is so wonderful about relgions culture anyway? It's always a wafer and cheap wine, they don't say "this is todays special given to you in remembrance of me" do they. Religious art is in stasis and anyway Michaelangelo could have done a lot better with painting roofs left to his own imaginings. And while the music in black southern baptist churches isn't too bad it's not Miles Davis is it?

Why so ?



Grey,

People like yourself [and muso], do not hold a solution to the problem [the 'moslem' problem].

It is people like you and muso [and NOT moslems!!] who are the cause of the problem.

What is coming cannot be stopped.

It cannot be stopped, because there is no 'problem'.

Not in your eyes, and not in the eyes of muso.

And if there is a 'problem', then it is those people like myself, who are the main instigators of the social 'disharmony' which we see.

You can see that, can't you ?

Yadda - the bigot.







+++


Quote:

"A Muslim community disproportionately involved in criminal behaviour targeted at non-Islamic people but which refuses to acknowledge any communal responsibility and claims instead to be the victim of a conspiracy;" - Nicolai Sennels

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/05/always-the-victim-uk-muslim-leaders-warn-of-islamophobia-in-wake-of-muslim-rapeprostitution-gang-cas.html#comment-878208





Quote:

".....Although he never used such a metaphor, that is what Paul Weston is really talking about. The police and social service leaders have been corrupted by the left and have lost their moral and ethical values to the point where they would allow their own children to be raped rather than run the risk of being seen to be politically incorrect. There isn't enough heat in their moral fibre to get out of their freezing petri dish to perform their sworn duty."

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/05/uk-more-arrests-in-new-muslim-sex-gang-probe.html#comment-878658





+++

Alternatively.....

There is no problem.

Moslems are not the problem.

Its those damned Christians and other people, like Robert Spencer, who are the true sociopaths, who are stirring up ISLAM-o-phobia and social disharmony, with their 'poisonous' lies against moslems.




Quote:

I don't have a problem with anybody following their religion, and the vast majority of Christians and Muslims alike are peaceful human beings. I actually value religions for their cultural value. I just can't stand "my religion is better than yours" hypocrisy.

Yes, that is what it is all about muso.

My God is bigger than Abu's god.

And don't you ever forget it muso.         ;)

muso,

IMO, this guy [Nicolai Sennels, below] probably knows more about moslems, and the culture of ISLAM, from the perspective of personal contact [with moslems], than probably 95 % of non-moslems in the West.

And he is an academic, a psychologist.


But hey muso,  Nicolai Sennels must be mistaken, coz he doesn't know your 'nice' moslem friends.

Right ???
/sarc off




Quote:

The Eternal Victim I reported last year  on the Danish psychologist Nicolai Sennels, who until 2008 worked at a secure youth institution Sønderbro in Copenhagen. He later wrote a book, Blandt Kriminelle Muslimer (“Amongst Criminal Muslims”), about his experiences dealing with young Muslim criminals in the Danish justice system. Nicolai Sennels - - Ten years ago we had a horrible case in Denmark. Four young Muslim boys dragged a young woman by her hair all through the biggest shopping street — Strøget — in Copenhagen and tried to rape her. Even though she was screaming and it was clear that something was terribly wrong, nobody did anything to stop it. Imagine that: a young woman being dragged through the most busy street in Denmark — with lots of bystanders — and nobody tries to stop it. .....as most other Danish, I was shocked about the rape story. Both the brutality and the fact that nobody helped that poor woman was devastating to me. Before this incident my ears were closed to those who criticized Islam and Muslim immigration but from then on I started listening with a more serious attitude. At that time I was still sure that successful integration was just a matter of time and that social injustice was the main responsible for the ethnic tensions. I was also too nervous about getting criticized to share my worries with others. Today things are different: I no longer vote for the Social Democrats. I also no longer care what people think of my opinions about Muslim culture etc. .....Inviting people from a completely different culture to live in our countries is the biggest sociological experiment in history of mankind and it is clearly turning out bad. Making deep changes in the demographics of a whole continent is very hazardous. Immigrants who do not want to assimilate — meaning taking our culture to their heart and becoming Westerners — should not be here. .....The worst thing is that the appeasers and the politically correct crowd has managed to scare a lot of people not to speak their opinion out loud. People are afraid of being called a racist or that others think bad about them. My advice is: Don’t care!

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.it/2010/01/eternal-victim.html





- - If we are only willing to help the weak when it is without any risk for ourselves, we are useless cowards. - -
Nicolai Sennels






muso,

This guy, Nicolai Sennels, is exactly correct about moslems / ISLAM imo.

He is not frightened, to confront the truth about ISLAM.




+++



muso,

You have claimed that your moslem friends are not Jihadists, and that 'They are perfectly normal people'.



No moslem is a 'perfectly normal person' muso.

EVERY SINGLE PERSON who says "I am a moslem.", has chosen to embrace ISLAM and its tenets, .....ISLAM's tenets of unprovoked violence and oppression against non-moslems.

How likely is it that a person who >> declares <<.....

"I am a moslem!"

.....is unaware of what the principle tenets and laws of ISLAM are, regarding 'unbelievers' and apostates ?

According to ISLAM itself, a good 'moslem', is defined as a person who chooses to embrace the tenets and laws of ISLAM.



Here are just 3 examples from ISLAM's foundation text, the Koran, exhorting >> every moslem << to enmity and warfare against all non-moslems....

#1,
"Those who believe in Allah and the Last Day ask thee for no exemption from fighting...And Allah knoweth well those who do their duty."
Koran 9.44

#2,
"Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).
And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"
Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan."
Koran 4.74-76
N.B. The implication which is projected by ISLAM, upon all non-moslems, that.....
"....[all] those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: [...and are ipso facto] the friends of Satan:..."

#3,
"Fighting [against unbelievers] is prescribed for you, and [if] ye dislike it.....Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Koran 2.216
N.B. Allah himself, declares that fighting against the 'unbelievers' is a 'religious' obligation for every moslem.

There are dozens more examples of Allah and Mohammed exhorting moslems to enmity and warfare against non-moslems.




Your moslem friends are lying to you muso.

They are deceiving you.

ISLAMIC doctrine teaches *every moslem*, that moslems must not make friends of unbelievers except to "guard yourselves from them": i.e. pretend to be their friends so that you can strengthen yourself against them.




muso.......

If your friend is a moslem.

DO YOUR MOSLEM FRIENDS RESPECT WHAT THE KORAN COMMANDS ???

And if not so, then in what sense are your friends 'moslems' ?

"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them."
Koran 5.51


Because ISLAM itself, says a person must respect and embrace ISLAM's tenets and laws, TO BE A MOSLEM.

Let's just take a look at violent crime rates in various countries of the world and how they correlate against religion. The top 23 countries are predominantly Christian countries in South America and Southern Africa. Number 24 is Russia, which is a bit of a mixture. Then we have more Christian countries. Number 34 is the USA.  Then we get to the first Muslim countries - Bangladesh is the highest. 

The real problem based on those statistics is Christianity (mainly Catholicism). The Gulf States are even more peaceful than Sweden.

I know what it says in the Qur'an (at least vaguely) and I have a certain familiarity with what it says in the Bible.  To be honest, both works of fiction shout to me of the the old adage about people who live in glass houses.

What is more telling in these traditional religions is what is left out of their wonderful codes of morality and ethics. Now we all know that bestiality is not mentioned in the Qur'an, much to the mirth of the general unwashed bigotry of this forum.

Tell me this - In today's society probably one of the most heinous crimes imaginable is pedophilia, but it isn't mentioned in the Bible at all, and many marriages have been performed over the ages by Christian clerics between adults and children - some as young as 7.

As a Christian, do you condone that?


Quote:

"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends.... ......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them."

So I guess you would take the view that Mohammed was a "False Prophet".

From 2 Peter:


Quote:

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them – bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping

So many people to condemn, so little time.  ::)

So......... Are you allowed to take false prophets as your friends? What do you think? (It's beginning to look a lot like Islam)

(No it's not - they're ..... DIFFERENT!)

muso wrote on May 16^th, 2012 at 3:05pm:

Let's just take a look at violent crime rates in various countries of the world and how they correlate against religion. The top 23 countries are predominantly Christian countries in South America and Southern Africa. Number 24 is Russia, which is a bit of a mixture. Then we have more Christian countries. Number 34 is the USA.  Then we get to the first Muslim countries - Bangladesh is the highest.  The real problem based on those statistics is Christianity (mainly Catholicism). The Gulf States are even more peaceful than Sweden.

Get real muso.

Oppression is 'peace' ?

Is it 1984 again ['doublespeak'] ???

The Gulf States, where if you are complain about the oppression, they will often cut your head off !

Yes, that will promote a 'peaceful' docile society.
/sarc off



muso,

If the Gulf States are examples peace [and justice ?] how are they keeping the asylum seekers [from the Western nations] out ???

Are the moslems beating them off with sticks, at their borders ???







muso wrote on May 16^th, 2012 at 3:05pm:

I know what it says in the Qur'an (at least vaguely) and I have a certain familiarity with what it says in the Bible.  To be honest, both works of fiction shout to me of the the old adage about people who live in glass houses. What is more telling in these traditional religions is what is left out of their wonderful codes of morality and ethics. Now we all know that bestiality is not mentioned in the Qur'an, much to the mirth of the general unwashed bigotry of this forum. Tell me this - In today's society probably one of the most heinous crimes imaginable is pedophilia, but it isn't mentioned in the Bible at all, .....and many marriages have been performed over the ages by Christian clerics between adults and children - some as young as 7. As a Christian, do you condone that?

No.

[I'll try to find something from OT scripture, relating to that issue.]







muso wrote on May 16^th, 2012 at 3:05pm:

Quote: "....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends.... ......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them." So I guess you would take the view that Mohammed was a "False Prophet". From 2 Peter: [quote] But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them – bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping

So many people to condemn, so little time.  ::)

So......... Are you allowed to take false prophets as your friends? What do you think? (It's beginning to look a lot like Islam)

[/quote]



muso,

I will respond with non scriptural quote for you.....


"And what is good, Phaedrus? And what is not good? Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?"
Plato
and found in, Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance     ;)





And now an OT scriptural quote, condemning people like myself.

Isaiah 56:9
All ye beasts of the field, come to devour, yea, all ye beasts in the forest.
10  His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.
11  Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.
12  Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant.

Yadda wrote on May 16^th, 2012 at 3:40pm:

No. [I'll try to find something from OT scripture, relating to that issue.]

Be careful not to take it our of context, like you did with the Qur'an quotes that you took from jihad watch.

Quote:

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)." Koran 9.123

I took the trouble to ask a Muslim what it means. As you may have noted, I did not try to interpret it myself, and I provided examples from the Bible that show how religious texts can be easily taken out of context. (I suspect that you know that I don't regard Christianity as a blood cult) Here is the explanation. (- and I will provide an acknowledgement only if prompted to do so by the source.)


Quote:

The context was in a climate where the fledgling Muslim community in Madinah was being besieged on all sides by a coalition of Pagan Arabs & Jewish tribes, and the Roman Christians to the north were starting to take notice of this new community, with a view to subduing them before they became too big, as were most of the revelations in the Qur'an. This is the climate Muslims faced for the first few decades of the existence of the Islamic movement. They were severely persecuted and routinely attacked, and finally permission was given to them to stand tall and defend themselves against it. And so they did.... The idea it's some open ended call to wage war on any non-believer you happen to come into contact with is just fanciful. Kinda like saying the Bible says to rape and pillage any non-believer of the Bible you come across, because that's what it claims God commanded Moses (pbuh) to do.

So, like the Bible and most other sacred texts, The Qur'an contains historical narrative - no great surprise. It's just a question of taking it in context.



Quote:

And now an OT scriptural quote, condemning people like myself.

Now and again, you surprise me with a glimmer of humility.  ;)



Quote:

muso, If the Gulf States are examples peace [and justice ?] how are they keeping the asylum seekers [from the Western nations] out ??? Are the moslems beating them off with sticks, at their borders ???

No, but I don't think the Christians in Bolivia, Colombia, El Salvador  and Venezuela are beating off all the immigrants at their borders either. Oppression is not the monopoly of any one religion or world view. It seems to be a trait of human nature. Unfortunately in this world,  freedom is the exception rather than the rule.   

I remember being introduced to a dealer in blood diamonds while I was in Guinea. After I had an interesting  conversation at the bar, my colleague explained to me who he was. His thick gold chain and crucifix rivalled something the Pope might have worn. I understand that Central American drug lords are equally devout.

muso wrote on May 18^th, 2012 at 8:12am:

Yadda wrote on May 16th, 2012 at 3:40pm: No. [I'll try to find something from OT scripture, relating to that issue.] Be careful not to take it our of context, like you did with the Qur'an quotes that you took from jihad watch. Quote: "O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)." Koran 9.123  I took the trouble to ask a Muslim what it means. As you may have noted, I did not try to interpret it myself, and I provided examples from the Bible that show how religious texts can be easily taken out of context. (I suspect that you know that I don't regard Christianity as a blood cult) Here is the explanation. (- and I will provide an acknowledgement only if prompted to do so by the source.) [quote] The context was in a climate where the fledgling Muslim community in Madinah was being besieged on all sides by a coalition of Pagan Arabs & Jewish tribes, and the Roman Christians to the north were starting to take notice of this new community, with a view to subduing them before they became too big, as were most of the revelations in the Qur'an. This is the climate Muslims faced for the first few decades of the existence of the Islamic movement. They were severely persecuted and routinely attacked, and finally permission was given to them to stand tall and defend themselves against it. And so they did.... The idea it's some open ended call to wage war on any non-believer you happen to come into contact with is just fanciful. Kinda like saying the Bible says to rape and pillage any non-believer of the Bible you come across, because that's what it claims God commanded Moses (pbuh) to do.

So, like the Bible and most other sacred texts, The Qur'an contains historical narrative - no great surprise. It's just a question of taking it in context.

[/quote]

muso,

You clearly accept the sincerity [of moslems] of the narrative imparted to you by your moslem friends,
....your peaceful, and moderate moslem friends, of course.

Good luck with that,  .....for as long as it lasts.

But i wouldn't like to answer for you.
[......in that you choose to side with the moslem oppressors, and murderers, who portray themselves as 'good folk', while there is ample evidence to the contrary.    .....e.g. the Koran [is a witness against moslems], and there is also the witness of the daily conduct of those moslems who have the freedom, to act freely [and to act 'righteously'], but instead, reveal themselves to be, the oppressors, and the murderers, of those who do not believe as they believe.   but hey, that is all just a malicious slander against moslems.    is that correct muso ?????    because the 'peaceful' moslems, are all being 'mis-represented', by people like Yadda.   right ??? ]




Hey muso,

Go the 'Arab spring'!!

Right ???

Standing 'firm' with your moslem friends, who are bringing their 'peace' philosophy to all of the world.
/sarc off







ISLAM says, "Dont believe on the son. Because Allah has no son."

Christianity says, "Believe on the son."

In the Koran, Allah [directly] states that he has no son [or 'children']....

"...Allah is only one Allah; far be It from His glory that He should have a son,...."
Koran 4.171

In the Koran, Allah [directly] CURSES the Jews and the Christians....

"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! "
Koran 9.30


WHAT IS THE CONSEQUENCE OF MOSLEMS [or anyone else] REJECTING JESUS TESTIMONY ???

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.





+++

[I'll try to find something from OT scripture, relating to that issue.]

p.s.
I did not find anything in the OT relating to the age of consent for marriage.

"there is enough treachery, hatred violence absurdity in the average
human being to supply any given army on any given day

and the best at murder are those who preach against it
and the best at hate are those who preach love
and the best at war finally are those who preach peace

those who preach god, need god
those who preach peace do not have peace
those who preach love do not have love"

excerpt from "The Genius of The Crowd" - Bukowski

There is no freedom [liberty], without peace.
There is no peace, without justice.
There is no justice, without truth.
There is no truth, without courage.

Peace, only comes with the courage to confront the truth.

-Yadda




What abides in the hearts of all men ?

Courage, truth ?

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?





Is truth worth dying for ?

Do i need to ask ?

Matthew 16:26
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Yadda wrote on May 20^th, 2012 at 3:45pm:

Peace, only comes with the courage to confront the truth. -Yadda

'Tolerance' of evil, is for cowards, for liars, and very wicked men.

Yadda wrote on May 20^th, 2012 at 3:51pm:

Yadda wrote on May 20th, 2012 at 3:45pm: Peace, only comes with the courage to confront the truth. -Yadda 'Tolerance' of evil, is for cowards, for liars, and very wicked men.

Is Yadda's quotation mark signifying he lacks the courage of his convictions?  ;D

Yadda wrote on May 20^th, 2012 at 3:45pm:

Peace, only comes with the courage to confront the truth.

Truth is not confronted. It is sought, discovered and accepted.

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 20^th, 2012 at 8:15pm:

Yadda wrote on May 20th, 2012 at 3:45pm: Peace, only comes with the courage to confront the truth. Truth is not confronted. It is sought, discovered and accepted.

Only by those who come to love it.

e.g.
Truth is often very elusive in a court of law.



John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


John 18:37
.......Jesus answered,.....To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.







Quote:

Truth is not confronted.

NoN,

Have you never known a small child to blatantly lie about something ?

And known that, for that child's own best interest, you must bring that child to see that he/she must confront what is true ???

Yadda wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 2:47am:

Quote: Truth is not confronted. NoN, Have you never known a small child to blatantly lie about something ? And known that, for that child's own best interest, you must bring that child to see that he/she must confront what is true ???

Truth confronts... It is never confronted. It is immutable and contingent on nothing and cannot be argued away.

To face the truth is not to confront the truth.

Lies are confronted.

A child must learn to confront his own lies and self-deception by learning to face the truth.

Yadda wrote on May 20^th, 2012 at 1:08am:

ISLAM says, "Dont believe on the son. Because Allah has no son." Christianity says, "Believe on the son." In the Koran, Allah [directly] states that he has no son [or 'children'].... "...Allah is only one Allah; far be It from His glory that He should have a son,...." Koran 4.171 In the Koran, Allah [directly] CURSES the Jews and the Christians.... "The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! " Koran 9.30 WHAT IS THE CONSEQUENCE OF MOSLEMS [or anyone else] REJECTING JESUS TESTIMONY ??? John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Translation: Your religion is better than their religion. They reject Jesus and the new covenant. Big Deal. So does everybody else apart from most Christians. Jehovah Witnesses don't accept that Christ is God either.

Mormons have some interesting ideas too. For them, everybody gets everlasting life automatically as a result of the atonement.

You'll probably find some interesting differences between Roman Catholics and your one true religion too. They believe in a state of grace, but certain defined sins will exclude you from that.

It's all a question of emphasis. Different sects draw on different portions of the Bible.

So, given my own position - that of a Religious Naturalist (fully clothed), do I get eternal life too? (Hint: My wife is Christian)  Do some digging. (1 Corinthians)  ;D


Quote:

+++ [I'll try to find something from OT scripture, relating to that issue.] p.s. I did not find anything in the OT relating to the age of consent for marriage.

I knew you wouldn't, because it was common practice to take child brides up until the end of the 19th century in some parts of the world such as the Southern States of the US. The morality and standards of the 20th and 21st century have improved in that respect.

I don't judge Christianity for that.  For what it's worth, no traditional religion speaks out against this point. Remember that point if some of your anti-Islamic buddies make such accusations against Islam.

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 9:34am:

Yadda wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 2:47am: Quote: Truth is not confronted. NoN, Have you never known a small child to blatantly lie about something ? And known that, for that child's own best interest, you must bring that child to see that he/she must confront what is true ??? Truth confronts... It is never confronted. It is immutable and contingent on nothing and cannot be argued away. To face the truth is not to confront the truth. Lies are confronted. A child must learn to confront his own lies and self-deception by learning to face the truth.

A good reply.

muso wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 10:09am:

Translation: Your religion is better than their religion.

Without doubt [.....i.e. with conviction!   ;)  ], in my estimation.

But hey, i'm just a flawed human being.      :)

Buit i have made a choice muso;

My religion is better than their religion.







muso wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 10:09am:

So, given my own position - that of a Religious Naturalist (fully clothed), do I get eternal life too? (Hint: My wife is Christian)  Do some digging. (1 Corinthians)  ;D

But muso,

Surely, you'd rather be with your friends in the after life ?

Your moslem friends.




muso,

My belief, my 'conviction', is that this life is merely a sorting process for souls.

And that we ourselves, are both the sort-ers, and, the sort-ees.    [by our choices, we sort ourselves]

What is your choice muso ?

Who do you want to spend eternity with, myself, or your wife ???

You don't have to answer that.        ;D


But don't worry your head over it though muso, because the God who created your living spirit, is a just God.

Yadda wrote on May 24^th, 2012 at 2:52pm:

muso wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 10:09am: Translation: Your religion is better than their religion. Without doubt [.....i.e. with conviction!   ;)  ], in my estimation. But hey, i'm just a flawed human being.      :) Buit i have made a choice muso; My religion is better than their religion.

I guess the point I was making is that the part about not accepting Christ is a bit more general than just Muslims. Not being a Christian myself (except on special occasions when the food is good  :P ) I am in that position too.



Quote:

But muso, Surely, you'd rather be with your friends in the after life ? Your moslem friends.

I don't believe in an afterlife, Yadda. I was being flippant, just as you were in your response.  However, see Hebrews 12:14



Quote:

muso, My belief, my 'conviction', is that this life is merely a sorting process for souls. And that we ourselves, are both the sort-ers, and, the sort-ees.    [by our choices, we sort ourselves] What is your choice muso ? Who do you want to spend eternity with, myself, or your wife ??? You don't have to answer that.        ;D But don't worry your head over it though muso, because the God who created your living spirit, is a just God.

There are many flavors of deity and ways of defining a God, and those who sense a "godliness" in Nature are sensing there the same sacredness as you do. We just interpret it differently.

muso wrote on May 24^th, 2012 at 4:04pm:

I don't believe in an afterlife, Yadda. I was being flippant, just as you were in your response.  However, see Hebrews 12:14

And we all [mankind], use to believe many things, which we now know were mistaken.



And peace.

Peace is a 'consequence' muso.



Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:


Romans 12:18
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.




.....righteousness is the primary, enabling, source of peace, imo.

And men are not righteous.

So, peace, cannot come from either the desire of men or from the efforts of men.

Witness the present state of the world.



So, where will men find peace muso,  ....if indeed a man desires peace ?

Matthew 6:33

Yadda wrote on May 24^th, 2012 at 4:40pm:

And we all [mankind], use to believe many things, which we now know were mistaken.

That works both ways. Mankind used to believe that the Sun orbited the Earth, and those who disagreed were often imprisoned or burnt alive. 

muso wrote on May 24^th, 2012 at 8:28pm:

Yadda wrote on May 24th, 2012 at 4:40pm: And we all [mankind], use to believe many things, which we now know were mistaken. That works both ways. Mankind used to believe that the Sun orbited the Earth, and those who disagreed were often imprisoned or burnt alive.

Yes.

And isn't it good muso, and righteous, that many people who belonged to that organisation which oppressed those intellectual dissidents, have since acknowledged the error of that organisation, and have repented the oppression which was perpetrated by that organisation?


But the earth is still flat muso, to some people.

To some people, today, the Sun may as well 'still' orbit the Earth......



Quote:

"All cultures are not equal. Actually the truth is some are vile and despicable. Only liars or ignoramuses say different."

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/05/msnbc-dont-expose-muslim-atrocities-it-will-make-islam-look-bad.html#comment-880551




muso,

You, and i, and most of mankind, can [now, perceive and] acknowledge that the Earth orbits the Sun.

Congratulations!!!     /sarc off

But why can't people like yourself, a rational man, acknowledge the truth about ISLAM ???

The truth that ISLAM is an evil, and vile, death cult, which clearly promotes and encourages its followers to murder those human beings who choose to reject ISLAM's authority over their lives.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/05/indonesia-dozens-of-christians-flee-as-muslims-set-fire-to-their-houses.html





+++


muso,

I already know the answer, as to why you refuse to acknowledge the truth about ISLAM.

If you did acknowledge the truth about ISLAM, your worldview would be instantly and dramatically changed, and that would force you to confront a very 'new',
.....reality.

And maybe then, your conscience, would force you to begin to speak out,
....ABOUT WHAT ISLAM REALLY IS, IN REALITY.




+++


Our perception of this reality is a scary and powerful thing muso.

It defines us, intellectually, morally.

Doesn't it ?

e.g.
Look at how moslems perceive [and then define] 'unbelievers'.


"Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan...."
Koran 4.76



With a twisted perception of reality, some of us come to believe that....

"Murder, is justice."   ???

Yadda wrote on May 25^th, 2012 at 9:44pm:

Our perception of this reality is a scary and powerful thing muso. It defines us, intellectually, morally. Doesn't it ? e.g. Look at how moslems perceive [and then define] 'unbelievers'. "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan...." Koran 4.76 With a twisted perception of reality, some of us come to believe that.... "Murder, is justice."   ???

muso,

Truly, a moslem would be 'legally' justified [in ISLAMIC law] in killing me, a person such as myself, if i fell into his power.



muso,

If a moslem killed me, if such an event happened,    would you mourn my death ?

Or, would you believe that i got what i deserved ?

That i brought that event, upon myself ?

Is that what you would think ?imuso,

In moslem majority countries, every day, moslems are murdering people just like me.



THE RELIGION OF PEACE
http://thereligionofpeace.com/

I already demonstrated how you have very little skill in interpreting the Qur'an, yet you haven't learnt from your mistake. I know people all around the world of many different faiths. Basically they all share a fundamental decency.

Do you really think that Muslims are encouraged to kill others not of their faith?


Quote:

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live

How many innocent people have been put to death over the centuries on the basis of that particular scriptural gem? How many people are still being killed in primtive societies because of that ?

You have the gall to suggest that Muslims may not be friends with anybody outside their faith based on the Qur'an, but it's not ok for Christians to be friends with people outside their religion. (But that's different because they're evil and you're good)

One man's god is another man's devil

2 Corinthians 6:14-5:17


Quote:

14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial[b]? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them     and walk among them, and I will be their God,     and they will be my people.”[c] 17 Therefore, “Come out from them     and be separate, says the Lord.

Also 1 John 2:22


Quote:

Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son.

You think I'm the antichrist? All Jews, Muslims, Buddhists are antichrists? All Religious Naturalists are antichrists too?  That speaks volumes about the intolerance and hatred of Christianity. You wonder why people like the Westboro Baptists can survive in a "religion sof love" . They survive by following the scriptures.

Once again, I am saying that there  are  problems with Islam, but there are just as many problems with Christianity. You have a mighty big plank in your eye.

Quote:

“All the demons of Hell formerly reigned as gods in previous cultures. No it's not fair, but one man's god is another man's devil. As each subsequent civilization became a dominant power, among its first acts was to depose and demonize whoever the previous culture had worshipped. The Jews attacked Belial, the god of the Babylonians. The Christians banished Pan and Loki anda Mars, the respective deities of the ancient Greeks and Celts and Romans. The Anglican British banned belief in the Australian aboriginal spirits known as the Mimi. Satan is depicted with cloven hooves because Pan had them, and he carries a pitchfork based on the trident carried by Neptune. As each deity was deposed, it was relegated to Hell. For gods so long accustomed to receiving tribute and loving attention, of course this status shift put them into a foul mood.” ― Chuck Palahniuk, Damned

Yadda wrote on May 25^th, 2012 at 9:44pm:

Yes. And isn't it good muso, and righteous, that many people who belonged to that organisation which oppressed those intellectual dissidents, have since acknowledged the error of that organisation, and have repented the oppression which was perpetrated by that organisation?

It's wonderful.  I wish all Christians could take a similar look at themselves.


Quote:

muso, You, and i, and most of mankind, can [now, perceive and] acknowledge that the Earth orbits the Sun. Congratulations!!!     /sarc off

Good approximation at least. The Earth and Sun orbit about a common centre of gravity.

muso wrote on May 26^th, 2012 at 10:05am:

I already demonstrated how you have very little skill in interpreting the Qur'an, yet you haven't learnt from your mistake. I know people all around the world of many different faiths. Basically they all share a fundamental decency.

muso,

I can see the argument that you are putting forward.


Google;
moral equivalence

muso,

Your position/argument defies reason, imo.







muso wrote on May 26^th, 2012 at 10:05am:

Do you really think that Muslims are encouraged to kill others not of their faith?

Moslems are taught from childhood, in moslem schools, that moslems are a superior group of people, a more moral group of people than others, ........because they are moslems.

Moslems are taught, that merely being a moslem, elevates a moslem to a higher moral plane.

Moslems are also taught, ISLAMIC law states, that it is 'lawful' to kill an unbeliever, to further the influence and power of Allah's law, in an area which is in dispute.


muso,

Above i said that your position defies reason......


muso,

There is ample evidence that in our own region, moslems in Indonesia are persecuting and sometimes murdering Christians - BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT MOSLEMS.

The evidence is clear and undeniable.....
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/05/indonesia-dozens-of-christians-flee-as-muslims-set-fire-to-their-houses.html


But you insist that all people, including moslems, are largely morally equivalent.


muso......
"I know people all around the world of many different faiths.

Basically they all share a fundamental decency."

Of course they do muso.



Quote:

Egypt: Muslims assault Christians, Muslims acquitted, Christians sentenced to life in prison

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/05/egypt-muslims-assault-christians-muslims-acquitted-christians-sentenced-to-life-in-prison.html


'There is largely, a moral equivalence, and no large distinction between moslem values and Christian values.'
/sarc off

And muso, please stop claiming that the Earth is a satellite of the Sun, you know very well, that the opposite is true.

Yadda wrote on May 27^th, 2012 at 12:03am:

muso wrote on May 26th, 2012 at 10:05am: I already demonstrated how you have very little skill in interpreting the Qur'an, yet you haven't learnt from your mistake. I know people all around the world of many different faiths. Basically they all share a fundamental decency. muso, I can see the argument that you are putting forward. Google; moral equivalence muso, Your position/argument defies reason, imo.

muso,

I was going to say something about how this age views the word, -discriminate-.

But i can see, that there is no point.

I say; Let the people have the world [i.e. the reality] which they want and desire.

After all, i am just a stranger in a strange land muso, after all, i have no desire to 'go native' here.

I see a different horizon.

In the begining God thought; and thought and thought and thought and the thought was 'round'.

And God thought, 'wow'

Because it's hard to think without anything to think about.

And the round thought was hard to hang onto, blinking in and out of existence. god thought some more and thought and thought and thought "I need a space to put the round thing"

And he thought "space" "wow".

And behold there WAS space and the round thing and god saw that it was good.

And god put another round thing innit. And another and another and another, (ad infinitum) and the space grew and grew and grew, (ad infinitum) and round things bumped into each other and became bigger round things.

And bigger and bigger and bigger and formed relationships.

God became quite obsessed actually, with the round that he thought ...

and here we are.

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