When did Labor become bigger sell-outs to the US than Malcolm Fraser?

US marine 'base' is a mistake, says Fraser

THE former Liberal prime minister Malcolm Fraser says the new American marine "base" near Darwin is a mistake, and that Australia's grovelling to Washington is hampering ties with Asia.

In a strongly worded submission to the federal government's white paper on future relations with Asia, Mr Fraser has criticised Australia's subservience to the US as a product of misguided assumptions America offers a security guarantee.

"Over 20 years now we have given the impression of doing that which America wants," Mr Fraser writes.

"We seem to believe that our security can be best assured if we do what we can to win brownie points with the US. This is a mistaken assumption.

''No country can really win brownie points with great powers. Great powers follow their own national interests and we should follow ours."

Mr Fraser is highly critical of the deployment of US marines in the Northern Territory, saying it fuels Chinese concerns over a policy of containment. He also dismisses claims by Labor and the Obama administration that the presence of the marines does not amount to a "base".

"For America to say that 2500 troops do not constitute a base is nonsense, indeed a fabrication," Mr Fraser writes.

"In military terms, a base does not have to be bricks and mortar. If 2500 troops are stationed in a particular place then the language makes it quite plain that they are based in that place. It is a base.

"To say that they are just passing through and that it is not a base is deceptive and misleading. It sends the wrong message, not only to China, but to countries like Indonesia."

He told the Herald he was also concerned Australia would lose more of its independence in Asia should the US turn Cocos Island into a base for unmanned surveillance drones, as reported last month in The Washington Post.

The Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, commissioned a white paper last year guided by the former head of Treasury, Ken Henry, titled Australia in the Asian Century.

Mr Fraser said he had only decided to put his thoughts on paper after the marines' presence in Darwin was announced and reports of plans for a US military presence in the Cocos Islands emerged.

In his submission, he said he was not against the US alliance but for Australian independence.

He said in assessing what to do in the future, Australia should conscious of our history and a dependence on Britain before World War II: "We believed that Britain would be able to secure our future," he writes. "It never occurred to us that Britain would be so preoccupied, so beleaguered, that in a situation of emergency she would not be able to help."

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/us-marine-base-is-a-mistake-says-fraser-20120423-1xhf9.html

Why is it that knowledge on all matters comes to our alleged pollies when they retire?

What has Fraser got to say about poker machines? Let's hear from Mr Fraser with his views on people who are ugly; should they be drowned at birth? C'mon Mal, give us the benefit of your wisdom.

Big (old) Mal is on drugs..... :D

No, Fraser isn't on drugs.  He's saying now what he was prevented from saying as Prime Minister

He's drawing close to the end of his life and he'd be a fool if he wasn't somewhat concerned about what follows death

He figures if they kill him now, it won't matter.  But he figures they won't kill/silence him, because he's simply repeating what many have already said about the US presence in Oz.  And clearly, the US doesn't give a rat's about any opinion to emerge from little Australia where the government is cowed and owned and 'knows its place in the US scheme'

Australia is fortunate in its geographic location, but unfortunate insofar as its small population renders it permanently dependent upon greater powers.  That's the lot of Australia and its population and one we must accept

It's also the reason we have such a farce of government, regardless of which party is in power

Fraser knows we're dependent and controlled by greater powers and he knows there's bugger all we can do about it.  There's no chance we could swell our population to match that of the US.  We don't have a fertile heartland.  Instead we have the stony, infertile remains of an extensive inland sea

In any event, despite its advantages, even the US is coming apart, it's many industries in ruins now as result of profiteers choosing to outsource and Americans are looking to Australia as refuge (to their disappointment when its drawn to their attention that massive continents don't necessarily translate to lands of opportunity and personal safety, financial security, etc.)

So Fraser is simply voicing what many feel.  Yet he offers no solution.  To claim Australia has compromised/surrendered its 'independence' is absurb and Fraser cannot fail to be aware of that.  What 'independence' have we ever enjoyed ?  What 'independence' can we protect ?

We're twenty-odd million people on a massive chunk of rock without a hope of ever having the means to defend our own coastline

Add to this the fact that - according to Gillard recently - more than half or even 3/4 of our population was born overseas

To claim that migrants would defend Australia against the land of their birth should the situation arise is something our own and other governments routinely address via means of 'camps' for the duration.  Our government has no delusions about migrant loyalties during conflicts (or even in soccer games, Olympic Games, etc.)

So we must accept we will always be 'dependent' upon this or that foreign power

Our only choice (and we rank and file plebs don't make the decision in any case) lies in which foreign power we align with

Yesterday, it was Great Britain.  Today, it's the US.  Tomorrow - who knows

Sure, it would be great to declare ourselves 'neutral', but that neutrality would require to be recognised and accepted by the rest of the world for it to be respected and for our shores to be free of conflict.  A pipe dream, in other words

Be great for us to ban imports and become self-sufficient.  It could be done.  But as long as we're a vassal state of the US, the opposite will continue to be the case and we will continue to reluctantly accomodate US forces and participate in US engineered conflicts

We don't have the luxury of impending death, as does Fraser.  We have to continue to build lives and survive, for ever at the mercy of stronger powers, just a little pawn of a nation on the world's chess board

i hope malcolm frazer dies soon

i  will celebrate

they are all freemasons so whatever,

http://www.ashtarcommandcrew.net/profiles/blog/show?id=2859786%3ABlogPost%3A1511177&commentId=2859786%3AComment%3A1512193&xg_source=activity

US government preparing for an Alien Invasion- Aparently in Australia!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yldyOOJOABg#t=0s

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1705582/pg1

CHINA GIVES STERN WARNING TO USA & AUSTRALIA
UPDATE 8.55am: CHINA has issued a stern warning that housing extra US troops in Darwin may not be appropriate or in Australia's best interests.

US marines will conduct private exercises by themselves on Australian soil for the first time under a military build-up revealed just hours after President Barack Obama landed for a whirlwind Australian visit.

The historic move increases America's involvement in the booming Asia-Pacific region as a counter to the rise of China, India and Indonesia.

Reacting to the announcement, China warned the two countries may have overstepped themselves.

[link to www.heraldsun.com.au]

<<
Reacting to the announcement, China warned the two countries may have overstepped themselves.>>
....................................................................

They sure as hell have, and to what end? If we stuck with our Asian neighbours we could have a prosperous and trouble-free future, but we'd rather play war games with the yanks.

Would you vote for a government that cares so little about its people?

Quote:

US government preparing for an Alien Invasion- Aparently in Australia!

Has the Labor party made any attempt to gain an alien alliance? Why not?

and theres me thinking we grovel to the Chinese.

isnt it them thats buying up all the cheap farms??

as far as I know the yanks aint buying anything..

I love it, I bet Fraser isnt labors second best friend anymore. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


hilarious.

I agree with Fraser on this. Obama (and any other american president) are looking out for americans interests only. Not ours. Not in any shape or form. We should not be doing everything they say and should look after our own national interests.

In fact I am actually starting to think the americans deserve ron paul. He will not only pull out of the other countries and leave us all the heck alone but he will give them their theocracy they seem to want.

SOB

Capitalism? The Chinese leave yanks for dead.  Oz was clinging to the British empire as the tide went out, back from Singapore, back from Suez, back from anywhere except Falklands. Yanks aren't winning wars these days and don't have a space shuttle.

PZ547 wrote on Apr 25^th, 2012 at 4:55am:

Fraser knows we're dependent and controlled by greater powers and he knows there's bugger all we can do about it.  There's no chance we could swell our population to match that of the US.  We don't have a fertile heartland.  Instead we have the stony, infertile remains of an extensive inland sea

So why is the base a mistake?

It's simply economies of scale.  Mutual advantage.

I'm sure Fraser was abducted by commie aliens and given a brain transplant.  Ever since he lost his pants he's been a nutbag...... http://planetsmilies.net/alien-smiley-126.gif

I have the headquarters of the Pacific Fleet about 2 miles from my office window.

I don't see the problem in a few thousand marines there???

Swagman wrote on Apr 25^th, 2012 at 11:31am:

PZ547 wrote on Apr 25th, 2012 at 4:55am: Fraser knows we're dependent and controlled by greater powers and he knows there's bugger all we can do about it.  There's no chance we could swell our population to match that of the US.  We don't have a fertile heartland.  Instead we have the stony, infertile remains of an extensive inland sea So why is the base a mistake? It's simply economies of scale.  Mutual advantage. I'm sure Fraser was abducted by commie aliens and given a brain transplant.  Ever since he lost his pants he's been a nutbag...... http://planetsmilies.net/alien-smiley-126.gif

What is the mutual advantage? What do we get out of it?

SOB

I found this site. No wonder the yanks want to invade us, it sux over there. You can compare Australia to any other country.

If The United States were your home instead of Australia you would...

have 63.16% more chance of being unemployed

spend 2.2 times more money on health care

experience 47.54% more of a class divide

consume 41.8% more oil

have 31.48% more chance of dying in infancy

use 20.99% more electricity

be 3 times more likely to have HIV/AIDS

make 19.59% more money

die 3.48 years sooner

have 11.62% more babies

Thumbs Up Would you rather live in The United States? Thumbs Down

http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/compare/AU/US

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 25^th, 2012 at 11:47am:

Swagman wrote on Apr 25th, 2012 at 11:31am: PZ547 wrote on Apr 25th, 2012 at 4:55am: Fraser knows we're dependent and controlled by greater powers and he knows there's bugger all we can do about it.  There's no chance we could swell our population to match that of the US.  We don't have a fertile heartland.  Instead we have the stony, infertile remains of an extensive inland sea So why is the base a mistake? It's simply economies of scale.  Mutual advantage. I'm sure Fraser was abducted by commie aliens and given a brain transplant.  Ever since he lost his pants he's been a nutbag...... http://planetsmilies.net/alien-smiley-126.gif What is the mutual advantage? What do we get out of it? SOB

How much cash do you reckon 2500 marines would spend in Darwin, additional defence contractors means jobs for the locals.  It would have to be a massive boost to the local economy.

Secondly, the presence of 2500 US troops massively strengthens the strategic defense of the region.

Australia gets additional defence strength with a fiscal boost for the locals to boot.

LoL

Really. Do you think the yanks would come to our aid? If we were attacked they would pull out. Maybe you have a point about the economy but its small potatoes.

SOB

Quote:

I have the headquarters of the Pacific Fleet about 2 miles from my office window. I don't see the problem in a few thousand marines there??

Exactly. The yanks didn't see any problems with Iraqis being invaded because it brought democracy.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 25^th, 2012 at 12:12pm:

LoL Really. Do you think the yanks would come to our aid? If we were attacked they would pull out. Maybe you have a point about the economy but its small potatoes. SOB

What makes you seriously think that the Yanks would "pull out" if Australia was attacked?

Swagman wrote on Apr 25^th, 2012 at 12:43pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 25th, 2012 at 12:12pm: LoL Really. Do you think the yanks would come to our aid? If we were attacked they would pull out. Maybe you have a point about the economy but its small potatoes. SOB What makes you seriously think that the Yanks would "pull out" if Australia was attacked?

Why wouldn't they? They look after their interests only. Not anyone elses. We dont have an agreement with them that they would stay and defend us. Why is that?

SOB

cods wrote on Apr 25^th, 2012 at 9:14am:

and theres me thinking we grovel to the Chinese. isnt it them thats buying up all the cheap farms??

It is "us" that are SELLING  them
The Chinese are the ONLY ones with any MONEY

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Apr 25^th, 2012 at 12:01pm:

I found this site. No wonder the yanks want to invade us, it sux over there. You can compare Australia to any other country. If The United States were your home instead of Australia you would... have 63.16% more chance of being unemployed spend 2.2 times more money on health care experience 47.54% more of a class divide consume 41.8% more oil have 31.48% more chance of dying in infancy use 20.99% more electricity be 3 times more likely to have HIV/AIDS make 19.59% more money die 3.48 years sooner have 11.62% more babies Thumbs Up Would you rather live in The United States? Thumbs Down http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/compare/AU/US

It also doesn't support down and outs.
I also pay $10,000 per year less in tax than I would in Australia earning the same gross income.

Pansi - we don't fund drop outs and deadbeats in this country so you are best keeping your rabid America-hating, anti-semitic views over there.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 25^th, 2012 at 12:52pm:

Swagman wrote on Apr 25th, 2012 at 12:43pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 25th, 2012 at 12:12pm: LoL Really. Do you think the yanks would come to our aid? If we were attacked they would pull out. Maybe you have a point about the economy but its small potatoes. SOB What makes you seriously think that the Yanks would "pull out" if Australia was attacked? Why wouldn't they? They look after their interests only. Not anyone elses. We dont have an agreement with them that they would stay and defend us. Why is that? SOB

We have an agreement.....the ANZUS treaty.

And of course they look after their own interests as does Australia.

The US has a strategic interest to have troops based in Australia.  They would not abandon this interest lightly.  Look at WW2.  Australia was a key strategic staging post for the US pacific war machine.

Swagman wrote on Apr 25^th, 2012 at 1:01pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 25th, 2012 at 12:52pm: Swagman wrote on Apr 25th, 2012 at 12:43pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 25th, 2012 at 12:12pm: LoL Really. Do you think the yanks would come to our aid? If we were attacked they would pull out. Maybe you have a point about the economy but its small potatoes. SOB What makes you seriously think that the Yanks would "pull out" if Australia was attacked? Why wouldn't they? They look after their interests only. Not anyone elses. We dont have an agreement with them that they would stay and defend us. Why is that? SOB We have an agreement.....the ANZUS treaty. And of course they look after their own interests as does Australia. The US has a strategic interest to have troops based in Australia.  They would not abandon this interest lightly.  Look at WW2.  Australia was a key strategic staging post for the US pacific war machine.

HAha. I didnt say they would abandon it lightly. I said they would pull out if we got attacked. Meaning if there was nothing for them to gain from the conflict of course.

SOB

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Apr 25^th, 2012 at 12:01pm:

I found this site. No wonder the yanks want to invade us, it sux over there. You can compare Australia to any other country. If The United States were your home instead of Australia you would... have 63.16% more chance of being unemployed spend 2.2 times more money on health care experience 47.54% more of a class divide consume 41.8% more oil have 31.48% more chance of dying in infancy use 20.99% more electricity be 3 times more likely to have HIV/AIDS make 19.59% more money die 3.48 years sooner have 11.62% more babies Thumbs Up Would you rather live in The United States? Thumbs Down http://www.ifitweremyhome.com/compare/AU/US

I'd imagine MUCH is this is tied to the PROHIBITIVE cost of life-saving medications to the kitchen hand on $6 an hour, the aged, disabled - and "the poor" in general



eg:

Diabetics DIE, in the US, due to the inaffordable $100 to $300 per month for insulin treatment

This compares to around $10 to $20 per YEAR, in Australia, for OUR "dead-beats"

But Andre_Hicks is CORRECT - that if you are in the $250 - plus - per annum bracket, you WILL get a discounted income-tax rate in the US compared to Australia





http://www.net4truthusa.com/Graphics/ANG-FlagEagleGodBlessAmericaPanel.gif

This was bound to happen. With bad relations over the Naval Bases in Japan and Phillipines, increased violent crimes such as rape and assault (which is never dealt wit in civil courts of the countries concerned) by US seviceman that are full of criminals that are given choice between a stretch in prison or signing on for the military, is there any wonder Oz seems like the perfect haven?????

We have the infrastructure they want - and will never have to pay taxes for or pay for infrastructure improvements - and the all the amenities they desire including a large and well versed population of asian sex slaves who are trafficked in this country already whenever they arrive  in an oz port

Couple that with the ability for a large US military base OUTSIDE their own country so a target for their enemies is displayed and it's even more clear why the US is fanning the "we are the best of allies" smoke up our arses at the moment......

There is absolutely no reason why they need to be here. No reason at all. And there are plenty of good reasons why they shouldn't be here.

One of the reasons they are postioning themselves here is to make a beachhead for the establishing of transportation corridors. WHY? The US military has for the last decade been trying to find a place offshore to store the nuclear missle warheads somewhere "safe" - where else but in someone elses country?  Legislation was passed recently to make part of SA or NT a nuclear waste dump site. Guess who's coming to the party? Yup you guessed right. A facility like this will be a terrorists wet dream and the only way to ensure that the material is held securely is to provide US military might. Well at least there'll be an armed guard to transport it there, but you can be assured that once it is "safely"  stored they'll scamper off and leave us to our own devices.

No No No No - wait I got it all wrong the US marines are gunna come and save me from the Mexicans, Nicaraguans,Russians,Chineses,Veitanmese,Burmese,Malayian,fillapinos,Iraqis,Irainian,Syrian who will they "save us" from next I wonder........  ::) ::) ::) ::)

One thing you can be gauranteed about, once the US have got their nuke crap sitting in our back yard, it will only be a matter of time before INDIA< CHINA< RUSSIA<SOUTH AFRICA<ISRAEL<PAKISTAN<FRANCE<ENGLAND<   will come beating a path to our foreign minister wanting to be put on the list of countries wanting to DUMP THEIR NUKE poo in our backyard.

But it won't be an Aussie in charge of the NUKE DUMP in our own backyard. Because some YANK CORPORATION WILL LEASE THE NUKE DUMP LAND FOR A MILLION YEARS AND PAY THE OZ GOV> A PEPPERCORN RENT so they can make a motza off our backs.................... aren't we good allies??????????

It won't seem to be happening but all the plans are already in place and over the next five years construction will start to take place without any fanfare. Most of the planning will be classified "TOP SECRET' and "commercial in confidence" so not even parliment will be aware of it until it's too late.

We won't have to worry about the potential problems from coal seam gas fraking killing us, because the radiation leaks entering the Artesion Basin, Cooper Basin, Surat Basin aquifers will kill every thing for hundreds of thousands of square kilometers including the Hunter/Riverina/Mildura food bowls. But that isn't a worry because we can all enter the lottery for a green card annually.......


;D ;D ;D ;D

[/quote]

We have an agreement.....the ANZUS treaty.

And of course they look after their own interests as does Australia.

The US has a strategic interest to have troops based in Australia.  They would not abandon this interest lightly.  Look at WW2.  Australia was a key strategic staging post for the US pacific war machine. [/quote]

This is the most oft repeated mainstream media crap that simply whitewashes the truth. The US only needed Australian for a base because they didn't want to attract anymore military attention at the US mainland than was neccessary. As long as the US military was here the Japs were interested in coming here first.

The Japs had absolutely no interest in coming here except for the fact that idiot in charge thought it was a good idea to have them here as the weak willed idiot had let churchill bully him into keeping our troops in the middle east as well as asceding to a demand he send more than Australia could bare.

As long as we cheer on our idiot politicians into believing that we cherish the attention of the US and Britain they will continue to act like the syncophants they are now.

We don't need an alliance with the US or anyone else - we need the bomb. We need to be able to defend ourselves from those that squeeze us with their demands couched in terms of "remember what we did to save you last time" palava.

I've got one question that I bet not one person has thought about yet. How smacking much are they going to pay us to put up with their bullshit? And under what conditions can we tell them they have to bugger off home if they start to forget they are guests not citizens? Cause lets have no bullshit about this - this is just like any business arrangement or marriage - at first it's all lovee dovee and breakfast in bed - and then the reality of the situation finally hits you and if things don't work out ( and they usually don't) we want to make sure it is going to cost us alimony if we ask them to bugger off out of here. Who's in favour of having to put up with an US military base if the relationship is sour and we can't afford to "pay them out of the contract".

No. No. No. No. No buggeren No. Lets make it a five year lease into perpertuity. That way if the buggerers misbehave we only hae to endure them for one election cycle if the government we elect in doesn't turf them out once elected.


They are way to many ways to be buggered sideways on this one and I for one think it's best if we just give them CoCo (Christmas Island) with no rights to marine territory and be done with it. Besides, I hear way to much yank accent in our kids for my liking already. With a US military base here our kids will end up sounding like they come from america like teh fillapino kids that work on the bases over there.......

Oh the horror..... :o :o :o :o   

The US only just held south Korea and lost Vietnam. The supply line will always be the width of the Pacific and Darwin has very little engineering capacity. Maybe it's better to have yanks there than in a protest zone in a southern big city. But if China does a ground troop thing in Asia, what use will 2000 or 5000 be? Will they  squat on a Philippines oilrig with night goggles and machine guns?

chimera wrote on Apr 27^th, 2012 at 8:21am:

The US only just held south Korea and lost Vietnam. The supply line will always be the width of the Pacific and Darwin has very little engineering capacity. Maybe it's better to have yanks there than in a protest zone in a southern big city. But if China does a ground troop thing in Asia, what use will 2000 or 5000 be? Will they  squat on a Philippines oilrig with night goggles and machine guns?

it is easy to assume that our FELLOW ASUTRALIANS in Darwin think exactly the opposite to yyou in regard to their location...........

I'm very certain that they want them stationed in Melbourne or Sydney.......

Have you heard about the next release of Battlefield? It's called Battlefield Australia 2020 - Food and Resources; Come and Git Sum

We'll have a bit role and your kids and mine will join a support cast of the stupid willing to die for a country that won't even pay the workers enough to buy a decent house to provide shelter for it's masses...................

I wonder where those boats with the teeming masses who came here on 457visas will head off to when the drama unfolds here.

I'm glad there is a bunch of you idiots out there in gaga land who believe that the US will send their troops here into a inferno to defend something that isn't theirs. I guess if there is enough idiots who believe this trite stuff the politicians want us to believe this crock of sheet,  then we'll feel safe and go to sleep at night and worry about the price of beetroot or who will get kicked of the block next........

Wake up Australia, no-one will save us from the big bad wolf. We have to do it ourselves.

Chimera - this remark isn't esssentially pointed at you as I think you remark about the futility of having some L33t force of "heros" waiting for the bad guys and dying for "our way of life" is spot on.....   The trouble is there are way to many ppl out there who actually believe this crapolla.

Quote:

Chimera - this remark isn't esssentially pointed at you as I think you remark about the futility of having some L33t force of "heros" waiting for the bad guys and dying for "our way of life" is spot on.....   .

It was spot on, but I didn't say it. but hey I can live with that.