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Member Run Boards >> Environment >> Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map. http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1335141007 Message started by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 23rd, 2012 at 10:30am |
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Title: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map. Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 23rd, 2012 at 10:30am
http://csg.getup.org.au/
And please sign the petition: http://www.getup.org.au/campaigns/coal-seam-gas/map/petition-module |
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Title: Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map. Post by Spot of Borg on Apr 23rd, 2012 at 11:09am bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 23rd, 2012 at 10:30am:
I cant load that site on my browser. Its prolly all flash or something and the flash is stuffed up on this puter. Thing is I have seen crap about this coal seam gas a lot lately. Mostly for it and some against it. It was just politics though - no reasoning. I dont really know what it is though. Can someone nutshell it? What is the problem? SOB |
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Title: Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map. Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 23rd, 2012 at 11:17am
Coal Seam Gas
http://www.wilderness.org.au/campaigns/coal-seam-gas The coal seam gas rush http://www.abc.net.au/news/specials/coal-seam-gas-by-the-numbers/ How is coal seam gas mined? http://www.abc.net.au/news/specials/coal-seam-gas-by-the-numbers/drilling/ Basically just too much risk for the environment and people inhabiting it. |
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Title: Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map. Post by muso on Apr 23rd, 2012 at 11:26am Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 23rd, 2012 at 11:09am:
I've seen people warning about Coal Seam Gas and its effect on Gladstone, QLD, where the LNG will be exported from. This is very strange because there is no actual production of CSG in the area. It does suggest that there are a lot of people who don't know what they're talking about. You know what you can do with your petition. The headless chook syndrome strikes again. These are the same people who would wish to dismantle our economic system. (Neo Marxists mainly.) |
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Title: Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map. Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 23rd, 2012 at 11:29am muso wrote on Apr 23rd, 2012 at 11:26am:
Muso you are getting predictable. Focus on one tiny thing to try and discredit an idea 1000000000x bigger. The closest well to Gladstone is roughly 50km away but they are completely surrounded and their drinking water is at risk among other things. There are plans to develop CSG in the area and this is what people are talking about. Please leave this issue here now that it has been resolved and do not try and derail my thread over a tiny piece of crap. |
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Title: Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map. Post by Spot of Borg on Apr 23rd, 2012 at 11:32am bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 23rd, 2012 at 11:17am:
Thanks SOB |
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Title: Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map. Post by muso on Apr 23rd, 2012 at 11:45am
So, what makes CSG exploration so different from oil and gas exploration? Are you suggesting that open cut coal mining is better, or are you suggesting that we stop all energy production except for solar henceforth?
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I'd love to know where this well is. I'd also love to know how you can develop coal seam gas production in the Gladstone area. Apart from the Oil Shale deposits, you're talking about predominantly volcanics. Exactly how does it affect the local water supplies anywhere in the region? |
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Title: Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map. Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 23rd, 2012 at 11:49am muso wrote on Apr 23rd, 2012 at 11:45am:
CSG is just as bad and worse in some areas, such as its obvious pollution of aquifers etc.. I am suggesting we phase out these primitave methods of energy production quickly and stop sitting on our hands when it comes to renewable energy. |
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Title: Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map. Post by muso on Apr 23rd, 2012 at 11:53am bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 23rd, 2012 at 11:49am:
I'd love to see more renewable energy projects, but I also prefer to deal with the facts rather than sensationalising. Sensationalising things without checking facts provides ammunition for the real Luddites who would prefer business as usual. We need to present the risks associated with all developments on an equal footing. Some of that might not fit your propaganda machine, but people deserve to know the facts. For example, the fact that rooftop solar has 3 times the fatality rate per MWhr that nuclear power does. (People fall off roofs and soalr panels have been known to set buildings on fire) Everything carries risk. It's just a question of evaluating that risk rationally. |
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Title: Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map. Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 23rd, 2012 at 11:54am muso wrote on Apr 23rd, 2012 at 11:53am:
What sensationalising? The only sensationalising I have seen is by big business who call people who expose them loonies or whatever else |
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Title: Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map. Post by muso on Apr 23rd, 2012 at 2:46pm bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 23rd, 2012 at 11:49am:
Singling out CSG as being a bigger problem than coal mining is ridiculous. You realise of course that wherever coal is produced, that has had a much greater effect on groundwater, and most CSG production tends to be in those areas, with the exception of coal fields that are yet to be produced. The main problem is a result of poor quality groundwater in coal mining areas. When that is produced, it can have a severe effect on crops if its allowed to run off. In cases where the groundwater is of good quality, it is no longer an issue. The production of CSG in the absence of other mining activities is not a significant environmental hazard. You can see evidence of that around Chinchilla, where the water is made available to farmers. Now if they actually start large scale coal mining in that area and the area around Wandoan, the ground water will be useless. You might read about BTX and fracking. No CSG company uses BTX in Queensland, although these aromatics are naturally present in oil and coal deposits. The risk of exposure to BTX is much greater when refueling your vehicle. Do you wear chemical gloves when you refuel your vehicle? |
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Title: Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map. Post by pansi1951 on Apr 29th, 2012 at 9:19am
Goodbye underground aquifers, goodbye rivers.
CSG leak hits major river system DRILLING fluid linked to a CSG project has leaked into a Queensland river that is part of the Murray-Darling Basin. The leak occurred when contractors for coal seam gas company QGC were drilling to run a pipeline underneath the Condamine River in Queensland's southwest. Environment Minister Andrew Powell released a statement this morning saying his department was investigating the spill but he did not say when the incident occurred or how much fluid polluted the river. He said a limited amount of fluid seeped from the drill hole but had since been contained within a wall of sandbags and pumped out. Drilling has stopped at the site while an investigation is underway. http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/story/2012/04/28/csg-leak-hits-major-river-system/ |
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Title: Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map. Post by muso on Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:19am
Hang on. If they were drilling for the purpose of running a pipeline under the Condamine river, then the "fluid" would be muddy water. Big Deal. This is an example of the hysteria surrounding this issue, and our environment department are hopelessly inept at reporting the facts.
They do geotechnical drilling all over the place. Just because this is associated with a CSG pipeline doesn't make it any different. No frac fluids, it's construction of a pipeline. An example of current EPA ineptitude - a lagoon of waste water was a major hassle for the EPA. They insisted on a new containment area constructed with HDPE lining. What happened next? The company brought in an environmental consultant who brought in other waste products and then classified it as an agricultural resource (fertiliser). The EPA's reponse? - Not our department. OK, eventually it will be used as fertiliser, but in the meantime, it poses probably a greater risk to the environment. Do you want to know the real problem in Gladstone harbour? I'll tell you privately if you like. |
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Title: Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map. Post by MOTR on Apr 29th, 2012 at 5:15pm
What do you see as the major dangers of coal seam gas, muso?
And are there any energy/CO2 emissions figures comparing the CO2 efficiency of coal to coal seam gas? |
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Title: Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map. Post by muso on Apr 30th, 2012 at 8:14am
The major dangers are no greater to that of conventional oil and gas exploration. Everything carries a risk. CSG is usually a purer form of methane than conventional natural gas and has a much lower carbon footprint than coal by a magnitude or so. LNG is a slightly more complicated issue.
Point 2 - You're asking the right questions. I have some figures somewhere. (edit: 68.8kg CO2-e / GJ) I currently have dealings with coal seam gas, but that's about to change in June. I'm moving back to the central coast with a new position. What I object to is the fact that environmental activists blow the wrong things way out of perspective. They single out extremely low local or regional risks as being more important than issues which have high global risk. That's one of my pet hates. Sure, we need renewable energy, but CSG is a stepping stone to that. In order to survive, we need high intensity energy sources in the short term until we have established a totally renewable infrastructure. If anybody is going to sabotage that effort, it will be the deep greens, the headless chooks. I'm a proud environmentalist, but I distance myself from these people. There is a difference between an environmentalist and a "greenie". I manage real risk and I prefer to take the lowest overall risk path. |
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Title: Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map. Post by MOTR on May 1st, 2012 at 6:46am
I'd imagine that studies of life-cycle greenhouse emissions of CSG (including extraction, pipeline transport, liquefaction, regasification, transportation and generation) would be quite problematic. I haven't been able to find one online. If you had to guess would life cycle emmissions produced be closer to 70% or 100% of the emissions produced by black coal.
Quote:
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/conservation/gas-could-be-just-as-dirty-as-coal-study-reveals-20120327-1vwns.html |
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Title: Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map. Post by muso on May 1st, 2012 at 8:48am
That analysis is flawed. It doesn't take into account methane emissions that would occur if the CSG were not to be extracted. :)
It's just a tad more complicated than that study reveals. For a start, it all stems from the fact that the 100 year Global Warming Potential of methane is about 25 times that of carbon dioxide. In areas where coal mining takes place, coal seam gas leaks to the atmosphere as a result of the extraction process. However if the CSG is extracted first, it reduces the pressure and reduces the emission rates to atmosphere. On that basis, you could argue that the extraction and use of CSG actually reduces the carbon footprint associated with open cut mines, even if they are not currently in production. Any open gash in the countryside is continuously emitting methane, and some of these gashes are 100km long or longer (see the picture). The emissions associated with coal production are grossly underestimated because these are diffuse fugitive emission. If we ceased CSG production from these areas, the methane emissions to atmosphere would increase. Any location where there is an intention to mine coal, shares the same long term benefit from CSG production. I read about that study when it first came out, and it doesn't look at the whole picture. You would have to question the motivation behind it. (Who funded it?) It begs the question - where is the life-cycle analysis for coal mining? (dangerous thoughts - just as well that I'm anonymous) There are various reasons for issuing a report like this. I deal with environmental consulting engineers all the time. You have to watch them like a hawk. Generally, reports like this are commissioned on behalf of industry for submission to the regulator. They tend to sneak in little recommendations that ensure that they will be kept in employment by way of future studies. You should see them whinge when you refuse to release payment of $500k studies until they tidy up the reports. mine.jpg (49 KB | 62
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Title: Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map. Post by muso on May 1st, 2012 at 7:41pm bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 23rd, 2012 at 11:17am:
I knew it. The ABC website is riddled with factual errors ;D Quote:
http://www.appea.com.au/images/stories/media/120410_abc%20admits%20website%20errors.pdf I wonder if it will get into the mainstream media? http://www.abc.net.au/contact/upheld/s3492127.htm |
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Title: Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map. Post by MOTR on May 2nd, 2012 at 8:41pm muso wrote on May 1st, 2012 at 8:48am:
Thanks for the reply, Muso. I'm still finding it difficult to accept that CSG is a viable transition fuel as we move to renewable energies. If we are looking at CSG in lieu of open cut coal mining, then potential emission reductions from future open cut mining should not be considered as they will never be realised. I do accept your point that these potentials should be considered if the land is likely to be mined more extensively in the future. |
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Title: Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map. Post by pansi1951 on May 8th, 2012 at 1:06pm
Stuff the consequences, we'll do it anyway lol
It's quite a comprehensive article so read more if you wish. .................................................................. Fracking: A dehydrated UK, watered only by capitalism London, United Kingdom - Fracking: environmental and human destruction at its very worst. Groundwater contamination, billions of gallons of fresh water squandered, small earthquakes, toxic air emissions, reports of radiation, and not even tap water going up in flames are enough to halt the decimation of our precious countryside, in an attempt to extract copious volumes of natural gas from the unearthed, sedimentary shale rocks below. Desperate destroyers, shielded within a self-regulating industry, think of nothing but profit as they hydraulically fracture rocks with a lethal cocktail of chemicals, sand and billions and billions of gallons of fresh water. Fracking is the latest devastating testament to how destructive capitalism has suffocated and engulfed our precious planet. In May 2010, after entering office, Prime Minister David Cameron stood up and declared: "I want this to be the greenest government ever." That spurious statement has not been honoured. This British government has chosen to do nothing except ignore all the toxic consequences associated with the dirtiest and most invasive extraction method of natural gas. Only after the first attempt at fracking in the UK resulted in two minor earthquakes, did the department of energy and climate change decide to commission a panel of (government led) experts to investigate hydraulic fracturing further. Published in April, the first official British report [PDF] advises ministers to allow fracking to be extended across Britain. Quite how this decision was reached is staggering, as the report is full of confusing contradictions that only highlights the risks and consequences. Key conclusions state: The minor earthquakes of magnitudes 2.3 and 1.5, in Blackpool, Lancashire, in April 2011 were caused by test fracks at the first British test plant. Further fracking will result in the same outcomes: "The similarity of the seismic events suggests this is a highly repeatable source." Concerns over the integrity of the wells and warnings of potential future contamination and leakage. A "traffic light" system should be adopted, with quakes measuring above 0.5 triggered by a red light and the process immediately stopped. Where exactly are the concerns and warnings over the sources, provisions and volumes of precious fresh water that will be wasted and contaminated? Why is this not a fundamental concern for the British government, which urgently needs to be held to account over their inept failure to follow through on their promise "to be the greenest government ever". http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/05/2012514505415433.html?utm_content=automate&utm_campaign=Trial6&utm_source=NewSocialFlow&utm_term=plustweets&utm_medium=MasterAccount |
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Title: Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map. Post by muso on May 8th, 2012 at 3:07pm
Compared to blasting at Open cut mines, a 2.3 magnitude Earthquake is not worthy of note.
The description for that category is : Quote:
Quote:
That kind of loaded language in an article shouts "BS" very loudly, and I immediately think "paid editorial". It's not very good journalism. |
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Title: Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map. Post by pansi1951 on May 31st, 2012 at 9:52am
Why is the river bubbling?
...................................... Coal seam gas leak causes Condamine river to bubble? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Di8cCrlyW6k This video released on Tuesday 29 May shows the Condamine river bubbling and claims this is due to nearby coal seam gas operations. Commentary from the video clip says that gas is measured as present at four different locations where bubbling is occurring along a 5 kilometre stretch of the river. Lock the Gate investigators have discovered coal seam gas bubbling to the surface along a 5 kilometre stretch of the Condamine River near Chinchilla. The gas is bubbling to the surface in at least four spots along this stretch of the river and, according to a local landowner, the coal Seam gas company operating in the area – Origin – has identified it as coal seam gas and is testing to see which of its seams it comes from. Lock the Gate Alliance president, Drew Hutton, will be calling a media conference today at 10.30 a.m. in front of the Parliamentary Annexe to describe these findings and call for certain actions to be taken. Mr Hutton, a former resident of Chinchilla, said that, while it was possible for methane to naturally bubble to the surface of waterways, none of the local farmers had ever heard of it happening in the Condamine River. Also, the fact that it is occurring along several kilometres of the river would suggest it is not an isolated occurrence but a major leak and has found its way to the surface along migration pathways opened up by the de-watering of aquifers or fracking. “I don’t think there is any doubt this extensive leak is linked to the coal seam gas drilling, and probably fracking, that is occurring in nearby wells,” Mr Hutton said. “This is just one cut in the death-by-a-thousand cuts to the environment that will occur when we have the tens of thousands of wells across rural Queensland.” Mr Hutton said the incident had been reported to the Mines and Environment departments by a local landowner but these departments reportedly did not want to know about it. http://www.kateausburn.com/2012/05/29/coal-seam-gas-leak-causes-condamine-river-to-bubble/ |
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Title: Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map. Post by muso on Jun 2nd, 2012 at 8:14pm Ex Dame Pansi wrote on May 31st, 2012 at 9:52am:
What an idiot. This is natural methane release. It happens every year. |
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