1. The Labor party is the party of truth-telling.
2. We would keep our promises when elected.
3. I have full support in Kevin Rudd.
4. There is more chance of me flying to Mars than becoming PM.
5. There is more chance of me playing for the bulldogs than becoming PM.
6. There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead.
7. Denial that Labor was in a power-sharing deal with the Greens.
8. Every reputable climate scientist agrees with her carbon tax.
9. The health rebate is here to stay.
10. The reports about Bob Carr getting the Senate vacancy left by Mark Arbib were completely untrue.

Can anyone think of any more?

I will wait and see what the Polls say before the next election Kevin..

everyone knows I have always wanted a CARBON PRICE..

funny how she talked Kev out of his ETS..

matty wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2012 at 10:09am:

1. The Labor party is the party of truth-telling. 2. We would keep our promises when elected. 3. I have full support in Kevin Rudd. 4. There is more chance of me flying to Mars than becoming PM. 5. There is more chance of me playing for the bulldogs than becoming PM. 6. There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead. 7. Denial that Labor was in a power-sharing deal with the Greens. 8. Every reputable climate scientist agrees with her carbon tax. 9. The health rebate is here to stay. 10. The reports about Bob Carr getting the Senate vacancy left by Mark Arbib were completely untrue. Can anyone think of any more?

Here ya go matty did she say these things?


Quote:

my politics are  not a far right

only to be caught out writing

Quote:

I am entitled to my views, and the left wing don't like that a 21 year old has far-right beliefs and opposes the carbon tax, homosexual marriage and the whole notion of 'climate change'.

OR

Quote:

I am a member of the GREENS

only to be caught out saying


Quote:

I lied about that

Oh no ,sorry, I'm getting her mixed up,WITH YOU. lying matty. :D :D :D :D

Gillard lied when she said Matty was a member of the Greens and went to Greens meetings.


Hang on, was that Gillard, or the hypocrite that started this thread.

Truth Overboard - 35 Lies told by John Howard and counting

23 September 2004

'Truth is absolute, truth is supreme, truth is never disposable in national political life' - Prime Minister John Howard to ABC radio, 25 August 1995. The Labor Party outlines the lies here.

Health

John Howard Lie #1

"It is our policy, without qualification, to retain Medicare . . . Not only does Medicare stay but so does bulk billing . . . They are the fundamentals, the underpinnings of the policy." - John Howard, Health Policy launch of "A Healthy Future", 12 February 1996

The Truth:

"No-one can guarantee bulk billing. No-one can guarantee bulk billing without conscripting the medical profession. Medicare has never been universal bulk billing-never . . ." - Tony Abbott, Minister for Health and Ageing, Meet the Press, 23 November 2003

John Howard Lie #2

"Medicare will be retained in its entirety." - John Howard, February 1996

The Truth:

The Howard Government abolished the dental plan and bulk billing rates have declined by more than 12 percentage points since the Coalition took office in 1996.

John Howard Lie #3

During the 2001 Federal election campaign John Howard promised that his Government's policies would "lead to reduced premiums" for health insurance. - "Heading in the Right Direction", p151

The Truth:

Since the election in 2001, the Government has approved increases in premiums totalling 21 per cent.

Education

John Howard Lie #4

"I can guarantee we're not going to have $100,000 university degree courses." - John Howard, interview with Neil Mitchell on Radio 3AW, 15 October 1999

The Truth:

16 different degrees now cost at least $100,000.

John Howard Lie #5

"We have no intention of introducing a loans scheme with a real or indeed any other rate of interest." - John Howard, in Parliament, 18 October 1999

The Truth:

"Debts accrued under FEE-HELP will be indexed to the consumer price index . . . A loan fee of 20 per cent will apply to FEE-HELP loans for undergraduate courses of study only." - Higher Education Loan Programme, Department of Education, Science and Training Update, March 2004

John Howard Lie #6

"Well, it means that we'll not have deregulated fees. In other words, the Government will always maintain a control over what the level of the fee is." - John Howard, interview on Radio 3AW, 15 October 1999

The Truth:

"We do need more money in our universities . . . and some of it should come outside the budget through a managed and sensible deregulation of the system." - John Howard in Parliament, 16 September 2003

The GST, Other Taxes and Red Tape

John Howard Lie #7

John Howard: "No, there's no way that a GSTwill ever be part of our policy."

Journalist: "Never ever?"

John Howard: "Never ever. It's dead. It was killed by the voters in the last election". - John Howard, interview, Tweed Heads Civic Centre, 2 May 1995

The Truth:

"The bills before the House will enact a broad based goods and services tax that will be levied at 10 per cent and will start in July 2000." - Peter Costello, Treasurer, A New Tax System (Goods and Services Tax Bill), Second Reading Speech, 2 December 1998

John Howard Lie #8

"The GST will not increase the price of petrol for the ordinary motorist . . ." - John Howard, Address to the Nation on the Tax Plan, 13 August 1998

The Truth:

The price of automotive fuel rose 10.4 per cent in the September quarter following the introduction of the GSTon 1 July 2000, and was 23.6 per cent higher than at the same time the previous year. - Australian Bureau of Statistics, ABS, Time Series Spreadsheets, Consumer Price Index 6401.0

John Howard Lie #9

"There'll be no more than a 1.9% rise in ordinary beer." - John Howard, John Laws Program, 23 September 1998

The Truth:

The price of beer rose 4.8 per cent in the September quarter following the introduction of the GSTon 1 July 2000, and was 8.5 per cent higher than the same time the previous year. - Australian Bureau of Statistics, ABS, Time Series Spreadsheets, Consumer Price Index 6401.0

John Howard Lie #10

Journalist: "Will the number of pages in the Tax Act be reduced by the introduction of a GST?"

Prime Minister: "Yes it will" - John Howard, interview Alan Jones Radio 2UE, 14 August 1998

The Truth:

". . . the Tax Act has grown from 3,000 to over 9,000 pages and an additional 2.5 million words have been inserted into the Tax Act, since 1 July 2000. Apart from these overwhelming changes foisted onto small businesses, we now have over 2 million businesses registered under the GST, compared to less than 17,000 under the former sales tax regime." - National Tax & Accountants' Association, 15 August 2002

John Howard Lie #11

Kerry O'Brien: "Okay. the pledge of no new taxes, no increase in existing taxes for the life of the next parliament. So for the next three years, not even a one cent increase on cigarettes or beer or wine or petrol, no other indirect tax increase, no tax increase of any kind?"

John Howard: "That promise is quite explicit". - John Howard, ABC 7:30 Report, 1 February 1996

The Truth:

By 30 September 2002, John Howard's Government had introduced legislation for 130 new taxes or tax increases during its terms of office.

"Bills which imposed a new tax or increased an existing tax introduced during the 38th to 40th Parliaments" - Clerk of the Senate, 30 October 2002

Meetings with the Ethanol Industry

John Howard Lie #12

Labor MP question to the Prime Minister: "Prime Minister, was the government contacted by the major Australian producer of ethanol or by any representative of his company or the Industry Association before its decision to impose fuel excise on ethanol?"

John Howard: "Speaking for myself, I did not personally have any discussions, from recollection, with any of them." - John Howard, Question Time, 17 September 2002

The Truth:

John Howard had met on 1 August the head of Manildra Group [Dick Honan], which makes 87 per cent of our ethanol, and they discussed how to help the Australian ethanol industry. - Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet, Official Record of Meeting, 1 August 2002

Aged Care and the Pension Clawback

John Howard Lie #13

Interviewer: "Well, if the Budget's in such good shape why persist with things like the pension claw back . . ."

John Howard: "No, no . . . because Glenn there is no clawback. And what happened with those things is that they were paid in advance and we're not taking them back, we're just avoiding paying them twice . . ." - John Howard, interview with Glenn Milne, Sunday Sunrise, 4 March 2001

John Howard Lie #14

"There has been no clawback, there has been no deduction and there has been no deceit". - John Howard, Parliament, 5 March 2001

The Truth:

"The indexation adjustments to pensions and adult allowance rates for 20 March 2001 will have the additional issue of clawback . . . Two per cent of the existing rate will be deducted from the normal CPI adjustment . . ." - Department of Family and Community Services, internal briefing paper, quoted in Parliament, 5 March 2001

The Current Account Deficit

John Howard Lie #15

"I can promise you that we will follow policies which will, over a period of time, bring down the foreign debt . . . our first priority in Government economically will be to tackle the current account deficit." - John Howard, Doorstop interview, Debt Truck Launch, 20 September 1995

The Truth:

Foreign debt was $361 billion at the end of September 2003, an increase of 90 per cent on the September 1995 level. The current account deficit was $11.9 billion at the end of September 2003, an increase of 112.5 per cent on the September 1995 level. - Australian Bureau of Statistics, ABS, Time Series Spreadsheets (Balance of Payments and Investment Position, Australia 5302.0, Reserve Bank of Australia (H) Bulletin, Current Account)

Labour Market Programs

John Howard Lie #16

"Well, we're certainly going to maintain the existing level of funding for labour market programs".
John Howard, Address to Youth, Macgregor, 20 February 1996

The Truth:

Kerry O'Brien: "Okay. But on 20 February, you said very clearly 'We are certainly going to maintain the existing level of funding for labour market programs'. Now, for all the people on those labour market programs, I would suggest it to them that would have been a pretty core promise and you've broken it."

John Howard: "Well, it is true that we are not spending as much money on labour market programs". - John Howard, interview on ABC 7:30 Report, 21 August 1996

Services for the Bush

John Howard Lie #17

"I don't want to see any further services, government service levels withdrawn from or taken away from the bush . . . I gave instructions for that this morning when I spoke to my office in Canberra, that in any future Government decisions that, in effect, a red light flashes if that Government decision involves a reduction in the delivery of an existing Commonwealth service." - John Howard, Nyngan Community Luncheon, 31 January 2000

The Truth:

The Howard Government reduced the number of Job Network sites by 42 per cent, from 1710 to 986, and the number of outreach services by 65 per cent, from 404 to 140."
Department of Employment and Workplace Relations, Employment Services Contract 2003-2006, Aggregate Analysis, March 2003 - Job Network Conditional Offers, Aggregate Analysis, December 1999

Children Overboard

John Howard Lie #18

"The Government's position remains that we were advised by Defence that children were thrown overboard, we made those allegations on the basis of that advice, and until I get Defence advice to the contrary I will maintain that position". - John Howard, Sunrise, Channel 7, 9 November 2001

The Truth:

"I left him in no doubt that there was no evidence, that there were no children thrown overboard." - Mike Scrafton, ABC 7:30 Report, 16 August 2004

John Howard Lie #19

". . . the behaviour of a number of these people, [on Siev 4] particularly those involving throwing their children overboard . . ." - John Howard, ABC Radio 3LO Melbourne, 9 October 2001

The Truth:

"There is no indication that children were thrown overboard." - Defence Strategic Command chronology to Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet, noon on 10 October (quoted in Investigation into advice provided to Ministers on 'SIEV 4', 21 January 2002)

John Howard Lie #20

"Nothing can alter the fact that I have in my possession an ONA report that states baldly . . . that children were thrown in the water." - John Howard, SBS Insight program, 8 November 2001

The Truth:

". . . fundamentally there was nothing to suggest that women and children had been thrown into the water." - Account of private conversation Acting Chief of the Defence Forces, Angus Houston, had with Peter Reith, Minister for Defence, on 7 November 2001, evidence given to the Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee, 20 February 2002

The Iraq War and Weapons of Mass Destruction

John Howard Lie #21

"The Australian Government knows that Iraq still has chemical and biological weapons and that Iraq wants to develop nuclear weapons." - John Howard, Speech to Parliament before the war in Iraq, 4 February 2003

The Truth:

"I stand by the fact that before we entered the war, we had a very strong intelligence assessment that Iraq had a WMD capability." - John Howard, interview with Charles Wooly, 60 Minutes program, after the war in Iraq, 20 July 2003

John Howard Lie #22

"Iraq continues to work on developing nuclear weapons-uranium has been sought from Africa that has no civil nuclear application in Iraq; . . ." - John Howard, Ministerial Statement, before the war in Iraq, 4 February 2003

The Truth:

". . . an intelligence claim about Iraq's effort to acquire uranium from Africa proved to be erroneous." - Foreign Minister Alexander Downer, Sydney Morning Herald, after the war in Iraq, 18 June 2003

John Howard Lie #23

"The Government has decided to commit Australian forces to action to disarm Iraq because we believe it is right, it is lawful and it's in Australia's national interest. We are determined to join other countries to deprive Iraq of its weapons of mass destruction, its chemical and biological weapons, which even in minute quantities are capable of causing death and destruction on a mammoth scale." - John Howard, Address to the Nation, before the war in Iraq, 20 March 2003

The Truth:

"We entered the war in Iraq based upon the failure of the Iraqi government at the time to comply with United Nations' resolutions . . ." - John Howard, Press Conference, after the war, 22 July 2003

John Howard Lie #24

Journalist: In your talks tomorrow, especially at the Pentagon, do you expect to lock in a possible role for Australia if, further down the track we do decide to join a coalition of the willing?

Prime Minister: Look there have been contingency discussions going on between the American and the Australian military and it's always important in these situations to leave those sorts of things to the militaries of the two countries - John Howard, Press Conference, Washington, 9 February 2003

The Truth:

Journalist: "Could you tell us whether you count Australia as part of the coalition of the willing?"

President Bush: "Yes, I do". - George W Bush, President of the United States, Oval Office remarks with John Howard, Washington, the next day, 10 February 2003

Taxpayer Funded Political Advertising

John Howard Lie #25

". . . we will ask the Auditor-General to draw up new guidelines on what is an appropriate use of taxpayers' money in this area. There is clearly a massive difference between necessary Government information for the community and blatant Government electoral propaganda. Propaganda should be paid for by political parties." - John Howard, Press Release, "Auditor-General to examine Government Advertising", 5 September 1995

The Truth:

The Howard Government never asked the Auditor-general to examine Government Advertising and they completely ignored the advertising guidelines recommended by the Auditor-General in 1998.

In the lead up to the 2004 election the government plans to spend at least $120 million on government advertising.

"In relation to future government advertising, we will explain government policies where it is necessary. We make absolutely no apology for that . . . The truth of the matter is that all governments . . . from time to time have advertised and explained the features of new policies." - John Howard, Question Without Notice, Hansard, 22 June 2004

Public Service Jobs

John Howard Lie #26

"Our plans . . . will involve not replacing . . . up to 2,500 positions over the first term of a Coalition Government-a process of natural attrition with no forced redundances." - Coalition Public Administration policy document Election Campaign February 1996

The Truth:

In the first term of the Howard Government, 32,400 jobs were lost. - Budget Papers, 1997-1999
Savings Bonus

John Howard Lie #27

On a promised savings bonus:

"You get the $1,000 savings bonus if you are 60 years or over."

". . . in addition to the pension increases, there's the saving bonus for everybody at sixty years or beyond of a thousand, an additional two thousand for self-funded retirees at pensioner age." - John Howard, Prime Minister, John Howard, interviews on Radio 5AA, 14 August 1998, and Sunday program, 16 August 1998

The Truth:

"It was very clear that pensioners who had income from savings of up to $20,000 could be eligible for the $1,000 bonus and that from $20,000 to $30,000, depending on their income, the bonus would alter." - Larry Anthony, Minister for Community Services, Parliament, 28 June 2000

". . . Almost 60 per cent of Australians have received the full $1,000 and nearly 75 per cent of those older Australians have received $500 or more . . ." - Larry Anthony, Minister for Community Services, Parliament, 29 November 2000

More Lies

John Howard Lie #28

Journalist: "why won't it [private health insurance] create a two-tier health system? . . ."

John Howard: "Well, it won't create a two-tiered health system . . ." - John Howard, interview on AM program, 5 February 1996

The Truth:

"I think country voters are very strongly supportive of the two-tiered system." - John Anderson, Deputy Prime Minister, Press Conference, 23 August 2004

John Howard Lie #29

"I know the welfare sector is particularly anxious about the effect of welfare reform on the most vulnerable in our community. In response to that very natural concern, I want to re-state the assurances I have previously given . . . nobody's benefit will be cut as a result of changes to the social security system". - John Howard, address to ACOSS Congress, 25 October 2001

The Truth:

In the 2002 Federal Budget the Howard Government announced that it would cut the pensions of 200,000 people with disabilities, and last year he cut the allowances of 30,000 parents caring for children with a disability.

John Howard Lie #30

"[The cycle of family debts] won't be repeated, and with the benefit of the information we now have we're going to be able to more closely target people." - John Howard, Sunday Program, 1 July 2001

The Truth:

Data provided to Senate Estimates shows almost 2.4 million families accrued family and child care benefit overpayments over the last three years. Family Tax Benefit overpayments have hit 1.9 million families and child care overpayments have hit 500,000 families.

John Howard Lie #31

"This ministerial Guide . . . sets out in summary form the main principles, conventions and rules by which government at the Commonwealth level is conducted . . . The emphasis in the Guide is on the necessity of adherence to high standards by people occupying positions of public trust . . . " - John Howard, Press Release, 2 April 1996

"The guidelines that were laid down in this document will be complied with in full." - John Howard, Parliament, 7 May 1996

The Truth:

Seven Howard ministers resigned for breaches of the Guidelines, but nine further ministers did not comply with the Guidelines and did not resign.

John Howard Lie #32

"The Coalition will seek to invest the Speaker of the next parliament with greater independence, similar to his or her counterpart at Westminster. This will require the positive response of the Labor Party. For our part the commitment is genuine and on-going." - John Howard, Headland Speech, The Role of Government: a Liberal Approach, 6 June 1995

The Truth:

Eight and a half years later, John Howard's commitment appears to be "on-going" but not genuine. The Speaker's position remains a partisan political appointment. The Prime Minister has never sought to change the role or sought Labor's support for changes to the Speaker's position to enhance its independence.

John Howard Lie #33

". . . it would be the intention of the Coalition that Parliament sit for longer periods." - John Howard, Headland Speech, The Role of Government: a Liberal Approach, 6 June 1995

The Truth:

Between 1997 and 2003, Parliament sat for an average of 18 weeks a year under John Howard--the same as the average sitting period for the Keating Government.

John Howard Lie #34

"The Coalition in government will also establish a stronger comprehensive committee system for parliamentary scrutiny of all government legislation" - John Howard, Headland Speech, The Role of Government: a Liberal Approach, 6 June 1995

The Truth:

John Howard has introduced no reforms to establish a stronger comprehensive committee system for Parliamentary scrutiny of all government legislation.

John Howard Lie #35

"A coalition Government will provide in full the funds earmarked in the 1995/ 96 Budget to match compulsory employee contributions according to the proposed schedule; will deliver this Government contribution into superannuation or like savings . . . " - Coalition Superannuation Policy Document, January 1996

The Truth:

"The Government has decided not to pursue the co-contribution proposal, . . . Instead, it will use part of the funds set aside in the forward estimates to introduce a broadly based savings rebate through the tax system." - Budget 1997/ 98, Budget Paper No

Lying is a pre-requisit for politics.

I'm sure Matty can produce a list for Abbott as well.

1. "A Carbon tax is the best method of limiting co2 emissions".
2. "Workchoices is dead".
3. "Climate change is crap".
...

matty wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2012 at 10:09am:

1. The Labor party is the party of truth-telling. 2. We would keep our promises when elected. 3. I have full support in Kevin Rudd. 4. There is more chance of me flying to Mars than becoming PM. 5. There is more chance of me playing for the bulldogs than becoming PM. 6. There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead. 7. Denial that Labor was in a power-sharing deal with the Greens. 8. Every reputable climate scientist agrees with her carbon tax. 9. The health rebate is here to stay. 10. The reports about Bob Carr getting the Senate vacancy left by Mark Arbib were completely untrue. Can anyone think of any more?

Has the government done away with the health rebate for everyone? or is that more lies from matty

Doctor Jolly wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2012 at 11:34am:

Lying is a pre-requisit for politics. I'm sure Matty can produce a list for Abbott as well. 1. "A Carbon tax is the best method of limiting co2 emissions". 2. "Workchoices is dead". 3. "Climate change is crap". ...

a list is not required. ... under abbotts own admission, it's all a lie unless its in writing .... now he's either brutally honest about it on this occassion, and admitting that he's a liar, in which case anyone criticising gillard is a hypocrite, or he's an idot for saying such a thing, in which case we don't want him as PM ....which is it?

Despite all the garbage you people throw up there is only ONE poltiical leader here with the reputation of being a pathological liar and that is Gillard. Dont ask me, ask her own party which has repeatedly accepted that Gillard reputation in the electorate is that she is a liar.

in the meantime you lot have to harp back to ancient histiory to find even HINTS of lies.

Howard isnt standing for releection - Gillard is. and SHE is the one with the rep for being a liar.

hence the 27% vote she is getting

and dropping

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2012 at 4:29pm:

Despite all the garbage you people throw up there is only ONE poltiical leader here with the reputation of being a pathological liar and that is Gillard. Dont ask me, ask her own party which has repeatedly accepted that Gillard reputation in the electorate is that she is a liar. in the meantime you lot have to harp back to ancient histiory to find even HINTS of lies.

Notice the use of the word reputation - mainly driven by the Media and Lieberals.

In the Howard case his own mate and a senior liberal front bench member called him a lying rodent.

Nothing about reputation just a straight statement of fact disputed by nobody.

Or in the case of Mr Abbnott - his own advice is to never believe what he is saying. (good advice in his case).

Neither position is reliant on perception mostly driven by media spin.

With the Lieberals the ongoing tradition is to look at either the previous dishonest leader or the next.

Dnarever wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2012 at 5:17pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 4:29pm: Despite all the garbage you people throw up there is only ONE poltiical leader here with the reputation of being a pathological liar and that is Gillard. Dont ask me, ask her own party which has repeatedly accepted that Gillard reputation in the electorate is that she is a liar. in the meantime you lot have to harp back to ancient histiory to find even HINTS of lies. Notice the use of the word reputation - mainly driven by the Media and Lieberals. In the Howard case his own mate and a senior liberal front bench member called him a lying rodent. Nothing about reputation just a straight statement of fact disputed by nobody. Or in the case of Mr Abbnott - his own advice is to never believe what he is saying. (good advice in his case). Neither position is reliant on perception mostly driven by media spin. With the Lieberals the ongoing tradition is to look at either the previous dishonest leader or the next.

Didnt one of Kevins own call him a psychopath?? or was that media spin.. I forget!

one can only guess what is being said behind gillards back...she is a flop lets face it.. at least Howard had a spine.

shes a liar.. and most believe that.. you can say what ever you like about howard but he never had headlines calling him a liar..

no I dont expect pollies to tell the truth.[all the time[. but when they do lie and they are caught out I do expect them to own it..

at least Abbott had the balls to do that..

if this woman put her hand up just once and said yes I made a mistake i lied it was wrong..

I would give her some credit and move on..

in the mean time the dodging and dancing round awkward questions is beyond me.

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2012 at 4:29pm:

Despite all the garbage you people throw up there is only ONE poltiical leader here with the reputation of being a pathological liar.

Actually both are, and that is why their personal popularities are so poor.

To claim Abbott is not a liar is to have missed the past 20 years of politics.  He cant lie straight in bed.
The old weathervane.

cods wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2012 at 5:32pm:

at least Abbott had the balls

I suppose that is one of the major differences between them.....

Frances wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2012 at 5:40pm:

cods wrote on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 5:32pm: at least Abbott had the balls I suppose that is one of the major differences between them.....

at least Abbott had the balls

Can't argue - they seem to be on display a lot of the time.

I'm interested in why evidence that other political leaders have lied is garbage, but hearsay is admissible evidence, there's not even a direct quote from the person who said it, or the context in which it was said. Well done.

One can never hope to have a proper discussion when recorded fact is garbage, but prejudice is a golden compass.

Lol, I love how the lefties on here have deferred to lies told by myself, and lies told by John Howard, many of which, incidentally, have been totally misconstrued, and none anywhere near big as the carbon tax lie. Good to see that you really can defend these lies, guys. Nice work.

matty wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2012 at 8:55pm:

Lol, I love how the lefties on here have deferred to lies told by myself, and lies told by John Howard, many of which, incidentally, have been totally misconstrued, and none anywhere near big as the carbon tax lie. Good to see that you really can defend these lies, guys. Nice work.

I consider the whole 'children overboard 'scandal much worse than the carbon tax .... to claim parents were willing to drown their own kids just to gain some political advantage, when he knew all along that it was a lie ... at least when Gillard promised no carbon tax, she did so without considering what would happen if the election resulted in a hung parliament (no one considered that so she wasn't alone in that department) .... even you moronic liberalites have to admit that the carbon tax was an issue persued by the greens in order for Gillard to form government .... If she had her way, it wouldn't have been a hung parliament and we wouldn't be having this discussion

Johnsmith wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2012 at 9:12pm:

matty wrote on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 8:55pm: Lol, I love how the lefties on here have deferred to lies told by myself, and lies told by John Howard, many of which, incidentally, have been totally misconstrued, and none anywhere near big as the carbon tax lie. Good to see that you really can defend these lies, guys. Nice work. I consider the whole 'children overboard 'scandal much worse than the carbon tax .... to claim parents were willing to drown their own kids just to gain some political advantage, when he knew all along that it was a lie ... at least when Gillard promised no carbon tax, she did so without considering what would happen if the election resulted in a hung parliament (no one considered that so she wasn't alone in that department) .... even you moronic liberalites have to admit that the carbon tax was an issue persued by the greens in order for Gillard to form government .... If she had her way, it wouldn't have been a hung parliament and we wouldn't be having this discussion

I was born in 1990, so wasn't aware at the time, but apparently, when he said "no children overboard", he actually thought it. He has been misinformed, or misinterpreted what happened. I don't know all of the details, but that's about the gist of it. My interest in politics only really started in 2004. Before then, I was a young observer, with no real interest.

Now, Gillard's carbon tax lie is another matter altogether. No, she may not have known that there would be a Hung Parliament, but she went to the election promising that the government that she led would implement no carbon tax. Yes, the Greens forced her into it, but she didn't have to cave in, she only did so because she thought that the Greens may pull support. Was she really stupid enough to fall for their bluff? As if they were ever going to switch support to the Coalition.  ::) She could have just said, "No, I promised no carbon tax, and I have a duty to fulfill that". But no, she is a narcissistic and psychopathic lying bitch.

matty wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2012 at 9:24pm:

I was born in 1990, so wasn't aware at the time

There are things called books that you can read that will tell you about things that happened before your time....

matty wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2012 at 9:24pm:

Johnsmith wrote on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 9:12pm: matty wrote on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 8:55pm: Lol, I love how the lefties on here have deferred to lies told by myself, and lies told by John Howard, many of which, incidentally, have been totally misconstrued, and none anywhere near big as the carbon tax lie. Good to see that you really can defend these lies, guys. Nice work. I consider the whole 'children overboard 'scandal much worse than the carbon tax .... to claim parents were willing to drown their own kids just to gain some political advantage, when he knew all along that it was a lie ... at least when Gillard promised no carbon tax, she did so without considering what would happen if the election resulted in a hung parliament (no one considered that so she wasn't alone in that department) .... even you moronic liberalites have to admit that the carbon tax was an issue persued by the greens in order for Gillard to form government .... If she had her way, it wouldn't have been a hung parliament and we wouldn't be having this discussion I was born in 1990, so wasn't aware at the time, but apparently, when he said "no children overboard", he actually thought it. He has been misinformed, or misinterpreted what happened. I don't know all of the details, but that's about the gist of it. My interest in politics only really started in 2004. Before then, I was a young observer, with no real interest. Now, Gillard's carbon tax lie is another matter altogether. No, she may not have known that there would be a Hung Parliament, but she went to the election promising that the government that she led would implement no carbon tax. Yes, the Greens forced her into it, but she didn't have to cave in, she only did so because she thought that the Greens may pull support. Was she really stupid enough to fall for their bluff? As if they were ever going to switch support to the Coalition.  ::) She could have just said, "No, I promised no carbon tax, and I have a duty to fulfill that". But no, she is a narcissistic and psychopathic lying bitch.

If you believe Howard didn't know the truth you'll believe anything ... The defence force officers are not about to lie to their commander and chief when talking to him. I'll take the integrity of a defence force officer over that of a politician any day of the week. If he didn't talk to the navy personnel at the time he shouldn't have claimed to know what happened ... It was ALL A LIE FOLLOWED BY A HUGE COVERUP because the polls at the time showed he was going to loose that election.... DId abbott lie when he said carbon tax was the best way to proceed when he was a government minister, or is he lieing now when he says the exact opposite?

You may say the greens would never have sided with the coalition, but you don't know that. You say that because it gives you more ammunition against Gillard, it's what you want to believe. The truth is neither you or I know what the greens would have done. When the job of PM is on the line, the job every politician spends their whole career aspiring to, you normally only get one chance . 

A list of Gillards' lies is very close to a list of Gillards public statements. Ive never seen a PM who lies so often, even when there is no apparent need.

They all lie. Its what we pay them for. Lets go back to the monarchy @ least with them we know where we stand.

Spot

matty wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2012 at 9:24pm:

[quote author=26332420351E2E2F24410 link=1333411743/18#18 date=1333451521][quote author=4A4653535E270 link=1333411743/17#17 date=1333450551] she is a narcissistic and psychopathic lying bitch.

You see buy this very statement you discredit yourself. The problem you have is that you will happily elect someone without the competence to do the job out of prejudice. Your hero Howard was a liar, pure and simple. Actually pretty well all the governments i can remember from Whitlam to Gillard have lied and done it constantly. Gillard's misfortune is in the public mood and that she can not lie to save herself. She really would be better off sticking to the truth.

nairbe wrote on Apr 24^th, 2012 at 5:45pm:

matty wrote on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 9:24pm: [quote author=26332420351E2E2F24410 link=1333411743/18#18 date=1333451521][quote author=4A4653535E270 link=1333411743/17#17 date=1333450551] she is a narcissistic and psychopathic lying bitch. You see buy this very statement you discredit yourself. The problem you have is that you will happily elect someone without the competence to do the job out of prejudice. Your hero Howard was a liar, pure and simple. Actually pretty well all the governments i can remember from Whitlam to Gillard have lied and done it constantly. Gillard's misfortune is in the public mood and that she can not lie to save herself. She really would be better off sticking to the truth.

well its good you look at it like that... on the one hand you think all govts lie...

well some truth in that..

BUT NOT QUITE AS BLATANTLY AS THIS ONE>


yet on the other hand you claim she only lies or seems to lie due to the public mood... whatever that means..

I excuse the odd lie or two they are quite often talking on the run...

but some of the actions of gillard are well !!!beyond belief as far as I am concerned,

the fact that she has let slipper suspend himself on full pay and increments..

no balls enough to tell him to ping off until this was sorted...she went after him dont forget... no one pushed him on to her..

she stares the opposition down but stands behind the biggest creeps in parliament THOMO and now SLIPPER..

sorry but thaty might make a great PM to you..

but to me its a weak PM.. hanging by her nails.

cods wrote on Apr 24^th, 2012 at 7:29pm:

nairbe wrote on Apr 24th, 2012 at 5:45pm: matty wrote on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 9:24pm: [quote author=26332420351E2E2F24410 link=1333411743/18#18 date=1333451521][quote author=4A4653535E270 link=1333411743/17#17 date=1333450551] she is a narcissistic and psychopathic lying bitch. You see buy this very statement you discredit yourself. The problem you have is that you will happily elect someone without the competence to do the job out of prejudice. Your hero Howard was a liar, pure and simple. Actually pretty well all the governments i can remember from Whitlam to Gillard have lied and done it constantly. Gillard's misfortune is in the public mood and that she can not lie to save herself. She really would be better off sticking to the truth. well its good you look at it like that... on the one hand you think all govts lie... well some truth in that.. BUT NOT QUITE AS BLATANTLY AS THIS ONE> yet on the other hand you claim she only lies or seems to lie due to the public mood... whatever that means.. I excuse the odd lie or two they are quite often talking on the run... but some of the actions of gillard are well !!!beyond belief as far as I am concerned, the fact that she has let slipper suspend himself on full pay and increments.. no balls enough to tell him to ping off until this was sorted...she went after him dont forget... no one pushed him on to her.. she stares the opposition down but stands behind the biggest creeps in parliament THOMO and now SLIPPER.. sorry but thaty might make a great PM to you.. but to me its a weak PM.. hanging by her nails.

I consider she is strong to her convictions but whether they are good convictions or not are what we all enjoy to debate here.

My point about public mood is that they were so sick and tired of the never ending lies and deception of the Howard Government that they dumped them despite how good times were. Rudd then Gillard thought they could just continue the time practiced behaviour of saying one thing and then doing whatever you like.

As for the current government they just can not get their story straight and if you are going to make big changes from what you initially said you need an amazingly good story and stay tight with the detail. They really are hopeless at this.

The big issue i have is that the public are preparing to sacrifice not just a government but democracy in this country for 6 - 10 years when the government though not wonderful have stable economics in the global reality that they work in. Inflation is well in control, employment is stable and low, debt is minor, and vision in things such as the ETS, MRRT, disability insurance, aged care reform and NBN is excellent. The option in Abbott is to destroy everything just to prove a point despite any positives that are there. His absolute attitude leave him open to basically be the most incredible liar ever as if he really follows through we can expect very tough times in the future.

Yep.  You've compiled some comprehensive lists of lies there from all sides of the fence

Your lists must confirm what you surely must know and acknowledge, i.e., they all lie

Anyone with any experience of retail, for example, recognizes that the two-party system produces salesmen so poor, they would be unemployable in private enterprise

which is why they're earning way too much as salesmen for corrupt political parties

Anyone with any experience of real-estate recognises the same thing

Door to door salespeople and call-centre jockeys -- same thing

Gillard today, Abbott tomorrow, Howard of yesterday ....

they lie.  They all lie and make lying promises and assurances

Can you prevent it happening tomorrow, because if not, your grandkids will be here a few decades along, posting the same stuff as you're posting now

nairbe wrote on Apr 24^th, 2012 at 8:01pm:

cods wrote on Apr 24th, 2012 at 7:29pm: nairbe wrote on Apr 24th, 2012 at 5:45pm: matty wrote on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 9:24pm: [quote author=26332420351E2E2F24410 link=1333411743/18#18 date=1333451521][quote author=4A4653535E270 link=1333411743/17#17 date=1333450551] she is a narcissistic and psychopathic lying bitch. You see buy this very statement you discredit yourself. The problem you have is that you will happily elect someone without the competence to do the job out of prejudice. Your hero Howard was a liar, pure and simple. Actually pretty well all the governments i can remember from Whitlam to Gillard have lied and done it constantly. Gillard's misfortune is in the public mood and that she can not lie to save herself. She really would be better off sticking to the truth. well its good you look at it like that... on the one hand you think all govts lie... well some truth in that.. BUT NOT QUITE AS BLATANTLY AS THIS ONE> yet on the other hand you claim she only lies or seems to lie due to the public mood... whatever that means.. I excuse the odd lie or two they are quite often talking on the run... but some of the actions of gillard are well !!!beyond belief as far as I am concerned, the fact that she has let slipper suspend himself on full pay and increments.. no balls enough to tell him to ping off until this was sorted...she went after him dont forget... no one pushed him on to her.. she stares the opposition down but stands behind the biggest creeps in parliament THOMO and now SLIPPER.. sorry but thaty might make a great PM to you.. but to me its a weak PM.. hanging by her nails. I consider she is strong to her convictions but whether they are good convictions or not are what we all enjoy to debate here. My point about public mood is that they were so sick and tired of the never ending lies and deception of the Howard Government that they dumped them despite how good times were. Rudd then Gillard thought they could just continue the time practiced behaviour of saying one thing and then doing whatever you like. As for the current government they just can not get their story straight and if you are going to make big changes from what you initially said you need an amazingly good story and stay tight with the detail. They really are hopeless at this. The big issue i have is that the public are preparing to sacrifice not just a government but democracy in this country for 6 - 10 years when the government though not wonderful have stable economics in the global reality that they work in. Inflation is well in control, employment is stable and low, debt is minor, and vision in things such as the ETS, MRRT, disability insurance, aged care reform and NBN is excellent. The option in Abbott is to destroy everything just to prove a point despite any positives that are there. His absolute attitude leave him open to basically be the most incredible liar ever as if he really follows through we can expect very tough times in the future.

I used to agree with the highlighted statement regarding Gillard's convictions. I used to accept that while she had no freaking idea, at least she stayed true to what she believed in. Not so any more. Now it is all about her desperation to stay in the job - no matter what it takes. She'd sell her partner if it meant another term as PM.

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 25^th, 2012 at 6:53am:

nairbe wrote on Apr 24th, 2012 at 8:01pm: cods wrote on Apr 24th, 2012 at 7:29pm: nairbe wrote on Apr 24th, 2012 at 5:45pm: matty wrote on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 9:24pm: [quote author=26332420351E2E2F24410 link=1333411743/18#18 date=1333451521][quote author=4A4653535E270 link=1333411743/17#17 date=1333450551] she is a narcissistic and psychopathic lying bitch. You see buy this very statement you discredit yourself. The problem you have is that you will happily elect someone without the competence to do the job out of prejudice. Your hero Howard was a liar, pure and simple. Actually pretty well all the governments i can remember from Whitlam to Gillard have lied and done it constantly. Gillard's misfortune is in the public mood and that she can not lie to save herself. She really would be better off sticking to the truth. well its good you look at it like that... on the one hand you think all govts lie... well some truth in that.. BUT NOT QUITE AS BLATANTLY AS THIS ONE> yet on the other hand you claim she only lies or seems to lie due to the public mood... whatever that means.. I excuse the odd lie or two they are quite often talking on the run... but some of the actions of gillard are well !!!beyond belief as far as I am concerned, the fact that she has let slipper suspend himself on full pay and increments.. no balls enough to tell him to ping off until this was sorted...she went after him dont forget... no one pushed him on to her.. she stares the opposition down but stands behind the biggest creeps in parliament THOMO and now SLIPPER.. sorry but thaty might make a great PM to you.. but to me its a weak PM.. hanging by her nails. I consider she is strong to her convictions but whether they are good convictions or not are what we all enjoy to debate here. My point about public mood is that they were so sick and tired of the never ending lies and deception of the Howard Government that they dumped them despite how good times were. Rudd then Gillard thought they could just continue the time practiced behaviour of saying one thing and then doing whatever you like. As for the current government they just can not get their story straight and if you are going to make big changes from what you initially said you need an amazingly good story and stay tight with the detail. They really are hopeless at this. The big issue i have is that the public are preparing to sacrifice not just a government but democracy in this country for 6 - 10 years when the government though not wonderful have stable economics in the global reality that they work in. Inflation is well in control, employment is stable and low, debt is minor, and vision in things such as the ETS, MRRT, disability insurance, aged care reform and NBN is excellent. The option in Abbott is to destroy everything just to prove a point despite any positives that are there. His absolute attitude leave him open to basically be the most incredible liar ever as if he really follows through we can expect very tough times in the future. I used to agree with the highlighted statement regarding Gillard's convictions. I used to accept that while she had no freaking idea, at least she stayed true to what she believed in. Not so any more. Now it is all about her desperation to stay in the job - no matter what it takes. She'd sell her partner if it meant another term as PM.

I would agree that is getting sloppy as she tries to keep it together for the term. I doubt even she believes that there is a hope in hell of another term so the imperative is to try and complete this one to make it as hard as possible for Abbott to destroy the reforms and infrastructure building that they have undertaken.

You must realise if Abbott just stops and destroys all that he claims he will he will send this country into recession and will cause increased debt problems. He will have to have some changes of mind or he will be up the creek. I wonder if the electorate will be so hateful toward him or is that just a special event for a woman.

nairbe wrote on Apr 25^th, 2012 at 7:15am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Apr 25th, 2012 at 6:53am: nairbe wrote on Apr 24th, 2012 at 8:01pm: cods wrote on Apr 24th, 2012 at 7:29pm: nairbe wrote on Apr 24th, 2012 at 5:45pm: matty wrote on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 9:24pm: [quote author=26332420351E2E2F24410 link=1333411743/18#18 date=1333451521][quote author=4A4653535E270 link=1333411743/17#17 date=1333450551] she is a narcissistic and psychopathic lying bitch. You see buy this very statement you discredit yourself. The problem you have is that you will happily elect someone without the competence to do the job out of prejudice. Your hero Howard was a liar, pure and simple. Actually pretty well all the governments i can remember from Whitlam to Gillard have lied and done it constantly. Gillard's misfortune is in the public mood and that she can not lie to save herself. She really would be better off sticking to the truth. well its good you look at it like that... on the one hand you think all govts lie... well some truth in that.. BUT NOT QUITE AS BLATANTLY AS THIS ONE> yet on the other hand you claim she only lies or seems to lie due to the public mood... whatever that means.. I excuse the odd lie or two they are quite often talking on the run... but some of the actions of gillard are well !!!beyond belief as far as I am concerned, the fact that she has let slipper suspend himself on full pay and increments.. no balls enough to tell him to ping off until this was sorted...she went after him dont forget... no one pushed him on to her.. she stares the opposition down but stands behind the biggest creeps in parliament THOMO and now SLIPPER.. sorry but thaty might make a great PM to you.. but to me its a weak PM.. hanging by her nails. I consider she is strong to her convictions but whether they are good convictions or not are what we all enjoy to debate here. My point about public mood is that they were so sick and tired of the never ending lies and deception of the Howard Government that they dumped them despite how good times were. Rudd then Gillard thought they could just continue the time practiced behaviour of saying one thing and then doing whatever you like. As for the current government they just can not get their story straight and if you are going to make big changes from what you initially said you need an amazingly good story and stay tight with the detail. They really are hopeless at this. The big issue i have is that the public are preparing to sacrifice not just a government but democracy in this country for 6 - 10 years when the government though not wonderful have stable economics in the global reality that they work in. Inflation is well in control, employment is stable and low, debt is minor, and vision in things such as the ETS, MRRT, disability insurance, aged care reform and NBN is excellent. The option in Abbott is to destroy everything just to prove a point despite any positives that are there. His absolute attitude leave him open to basically be the most incredible liar ever as if he really follows through we can expect very tough times in the future. I used to agree with the highlighted statement regarding Gillard's convictions. I used to accept that while she had no freaking idea, at least she stayed true to what she believed in. Not so any more. Now it is all about her desperation to stay in the job - no matter what it takes. She'd sell her partner if it meant another term as PM. I would agree that is getting sloppy as she tries to keep it together for the term. I doubt even she believes that there is a hope in hell of another term so the imperative is to try and complete this one to make it as hard as possible for Abbott to destroy the reforms and infrastructure building that they have undertaken. You must realise if Abbott just stops and destroys all that he claims he will he will send this country into recession and will cause increased debt problems. He will have to have some changes of mind or he will be up the creek. I wonder if the electorate will be so hateful toward him or is that just a special event for a woman.

I think you need to give Abbott more credit than that.

Johnsmith wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2012 at 9:12pm:

matty wrote on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 8:55pm: Lol, I love how the lefties on here have deferred to lies told by myself, and lies told by John Howard, many of which, incidentally, have been totally misconstrued, and none anywhere near big as the carbon tax lie. Good to see that you really can defend these lies, guys. Nice work. I consider the whole 'children overboard 'scandal much worse than the carbon tax .... to claim parents were willing to drown their own kids just to gain some political advantage, when he knew all along that it was a lie ... at least when Gillard promised no carbon tax, she did so without considering what would happen if the election resulted in a hung parliament (no one considered that so she wasn't alone in that department) .... even you moronic liberalites have to admit that the carbon tax was an issue persued by the greens in order for Gillard to form government .... If she had her way, it wouldn't have been a hung parliament and we wouldn't be having this discussion

I thought that the Illegal invasion of Iraq also rates a mention.

We invaded a country in clear breach of international law looking for WMD's which didn't exist and justified by untrue statments. over 100,000 people died.

Dnarever wrote on Apr 25^th, 2012 at 8:56am:

Johnsmith wrote on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 9:12pm: matty wrote on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 8:55pm: Lol, I love how the lefties on here have deferred to lies told by myself, and lies told by John Howard, many of which, incidentally, have been totally misconstrued, and none anywhere near big as the carbon tax lie. Good to see that you really can defend these lies, guys. Nice work. I consider the whole 'children overboard 'scandal much worse than the carbon tax .... to claim parents were willing to drown their own kids just to gain some political advantage, when he knew all along that it was a lie ... at least when Gillard promised no carbon tax, she did so without considering what would happen if the election resulted in a hung parliament (no one considered that so she wasn't alone in that department) .... even you moronic liberalites have to admit that the carbon tax was an issue persued by the greens in order for Gillard to form government .... If she had her way, it wouldn't have been a hung parliament and we wouldn't be having this discussion I thought that the Illegal invasion of Iraq also rates a mention. We invaded a country in clear breach of international law looking for WMD's which didn't exist and justified by untrue statments. over 100,000 people died.

are you secretly in love with Howard? you mention him as often as booby mentions lastnail and they are a gay couple. how about you try and defend the current govt for a change!

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 25^th, 2012 at 4:31pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 25th, 2012 at 8:56am: Johnsmith wrote on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 9:12pm: matty wrote on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 8:55pm: Lol, I love how the lefties on here have deferred to lies told by myself, and lies told by John Howard, many of which, incidentally, have been totally misconstrued, and none anywhere near big as the carbon tax lie. Good to see that you really can defend these lies, guys. Nice work. I consider the whole 'children overboard 'scandal much worse than the carbon tax .... to claim parents were willing to drown their own kids just to gain some political advantage, when he knew all along that it was a lie ... at least when Gillard promised no carbon tax, she did so without considering what would happen if the election resulted in a hung parliament (no one considered that so she wasn't alone in that department) .... even you moronic liberalites have to admit that the carbon tax was an issue persued by the greens in order for Gillard to form government .... If she had her way, it wouldn't have been a hung parliament and we wouldn't be having this discussion I thought that the Illegal invasion of Iraq also rates a mention. We invaded a country in clear breach of international law looking for WMD's which didn't exist and justified by untrue statments. over 100,000 people died. are you secretly in love with Howard? you mention him as often as booby mentions lastnail and they are a gay couple. how about you try and defend the current govt for a change!

Is that because you are worried that when real comparisons are made, its obvious that Gillard is actually doing better than you would like us to know?

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 25^th, 2012 at 4:31pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 25th, 2012 at 8:56am: Johnsmith wrote on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 9:12pm: matty wrote on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 8:55pm: Lol, I love how the lefties on here have deferred to lies told by myself, and lies told by John Howard, many of which, incidentally, have been totally misconstrued, and none anywhere near big as the carbon tax lie. Good to see that you really can defend these lies, guys. Nice work. I consider the whole 'children overboard 'scandal much worse than the carbon tax .... to claim parents were willing to drown their own kids just to gain some political advantage, when he knew all along that it was a lie ... at least when Gillard promised no carbon tax, she did so without considering what would happen if the election resulted in a hung parliament (no one considered that so she wasn't alone in that department) .... even you moronic liberalites have to admit that the carbon tax was an issue persued by the greens in order for Gillard to form government .... If she had her way, it wouldn't have been a hung parliament and we wouldn't be having this discussion I thought that the Illegal invasion of Iraq also rates a mention. We invaded a country in clear breach of international law looking for WMD's which didn't exist and justified by untrue statments. over 100,000 people died. are you secretly in love with Howard? you mention him as often as booby mentions lastnail and they are a gay couple. how about you try and defend the current govt for a change!

I would think that direct comparison with the previous government on a question specifically asked about the government is valid.

love how the lefties on here have deferred to lies told by myself, and lies told by John Howard, many of which, incidentally, have been totally misconstrued, and [highlight]none anywhere near big as the carbon tax lie.

How would you propose a responce to this be given without mantioning JH?

Gillard & Howard have both set examples for the young people of today:

If you lie & cheat you can get a top job in Australia -
you can even be a Prime Minister.


Therefore:
if you want to get ahead in life -

learn how to be a convincing liar.

Bobby. wrote on Apr 25^th, 2012 at 4:56pm:

Gillard & Howard have both set examples for the young people of today: If you lie & cheat you can get a top job in Australia - you can even be a Prime Minister. Therefore: if you want to get ahead in life - learn how to be a convincing liar.

Yes, extremely bad role models.

Maybe we should use them as examples of what not to do if you want to have credibility and respect.

Politics though, it's always the rats that run the sewer.