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Member Run Boards >> Environment >> Pesticides tied to decline in bee population http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1333087240 Message started by PoliticalPuppet on Mar 30th, 2012 at 4:00pm |
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Title: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Mar 30th, 2012 at 4:00pm
Neonicotinoid pesticides tied to decline in bee's
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/29/10921493-neonicotinoid-pesticides-tied-to-crashing-bee-populations-2-studies-find Quote:
Something seems wrong here, there have been studies for decades linking pesticides to many dangerous problems and the media has never paid attention. Without a doubt the decline in bee populations is one of the biggest problems the human race faces, but why do they listen now? I am guess the big bio tech corporations don't need to use it anymore and have a new alternative, or that this certain type of pesticide is being used as a scapegoat to make it look like something is actually being done about the issue of dangerous pesticide in general. There have been studies done linking many types of pesticides to bee population decline. Quote:
Problem is bee's are exposed to multible pesticides, chemicals and GMO crops. Quote:
Related links: http://bayer-kills-bees.com/ http://proliberty.com/observer/20090408.htm http://www.rodaleinstitute.org/20120202_ge-honeybee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_collapse_disorder Mass honeybee deaths now occurring worldwide, says UN http://www.naturalnews.com/031694_honeybees_decline.html More Damning Evidence Points to Pesticide as Cause of Mass Bee Deaths http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/01/30-9 [url]A new study published in Naturwissenschaften - The Science of Nature by a leading bee expert provides damning evidence that a widely used pesticide, even at low levels, is responsible for the recent catastrophic decline in honey bees. Dr. Jeff Pettis of the USDA's Bee Research Laboratory in Beltsville, MD led the study.[/url] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTiQTRWbeDw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv6lCHRqsHw Quote:
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Title: Re: Neonicotinoid pesticides tied to decline in bee's Post by PoliticalPuppet on Mar 30th, 2012 at 4:04pm
Controversial Pesticide Linked to Bee Collapse
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/03/neonicotinoids-bee-collapse/ Quote:
Both Goulson and Mace Vaughn, pollinator program director at the Xerces Society, an invertebrate conservation group, said neonicotinoids won’t be the only cause of colony collapse disorder. “If it was as simple as that, the answer would have been discovered a long time ago,” said Goulson. “I’m sure it’s a combination of things. I’m sure that disease is a part of it, and maybe the two interact.” He noted a study in which honeybees exposed to neonicotinoids were especially vulnerable to a common bee parasite. Another study found that neonicotinoids dramatically increase the toxicity of fungicides. Vaughn raised the issue of industrial-scale beekeeping practices, which have also been linked to bee declines. “We’ve potentially created a situation where behavioral impacts, compounded with a lack of genetic diversity and the food they eat, results in something like colony collapse disorder,” he said. “My only caution is that farmers use neonicotinoids for a reason,” said Goulson. “If they were banned, farmers would have to use something else. The question is, what would that be? Would it be better? Would it also have harmful effects?” While it’s unlikely that neonicotinoids will be banned outright in the United States, where they’re now used on more than 100 million crop acres and an unknown area of home gardens and urban vegetation, Vaughn said they could be used differently. “I would call for a ban on their use without a demonstrated pest threat. If you have corn rootworm, and need to address that, then use neonicotinoid-coated seeds,” he said. “But if it’s a vague threat that you haven’t identified, you shouldn’t be using them. Maybe it makes you a few bucks, and certainly makes the seed companies a lot of money, but it’s potentially killing bees across the country.” Heather Pilatic of the Pesticide Action Network recommended a return to pest management strategies used widely through the 1990s, when the rise of pesticide-treated seeds and genetically modified crops allowed farmers to change their growing strategies. “When you plant the same crop, year after year, you’re creating the conditions for a pest infestation,” Pilatic said. “In the mid-1990s, we were doing a really good job of pest management with corn in particular. With the introduction of treated seeds, and in particular of genetically engineered corn, it all unraveled. But we know how to do it. We were doing it 20 years ago.” Penn State’s Frazier said that the Environmental Protection Agency, which recently received a 1.25 million-signature-strong petition to ban neonicotinoids, is slowly becoming better at risk assessment, though the agency is still heavily influenced by chemical companies and opaque in its workings. The fundamental problem isn’t neonicotinoids, but our society’s relationship to chemicals, said Frazier. “We’re making ourselves the guinea pigs,” he said. “I don’t think that’s what a rational society should be doing.” Image: Jack Wolf/Flickr Citations: “Neonicotinoid Pesticide Reduces Bumble Bee Colony Growth and Queen Production.” By Penelope R. Whitehorn, Stephanie O’Connor, Felix L. Wackers, Dave Goulson. Science, Vol. 335 No. 6076, March 30, 2012. “A Common Pesticide Decreases Foraging Success and Survival in Honey Bees.” By Mickaël Henry, Maxime Beguin, Fabrice Requier, Orianne Rollin, Jean‐François Odoux, Pierrick Aupinel, Jean Aptel, Sylvie Tchamitchian, Axel Decourtye. Science, Vol. 335 No. 6076, March 30, 2012.[/quote] |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Mar 30th, 2012 at 6:08pm
Monsanto's GMO Corn Linked To Organ Failure, Study Reveals
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/12/monsantos-gmo-corn-linked_n_420365.html Quote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY8ZAX4Cfxw |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by muso on Mar 31st, 2012 at 10:50am bobbythefap1 wrote on Mar 30th, 2012 at 6:08pm:
One thing that Australia does well is careful vetting of GM crops. Apart from canola, there is no other GM food crop grown in Australia as far as I know, and Canola is made into oil, which has practically nil genetic content. By the way, the argument about bees and GM crops is only partly true. GM crops actually avoid the need for crop dusting and spraying because they produce their own pesticide. Crop dusting and spraying (particularly aerial spraying) is a lot worse than that. Any argument that a GM crop producing pesticide or herbicide causes organ damage should be read in conjunction with the fact that the pesticides themselves do exactly the same, except that it's ten times worse. (Well, hello - this is not new news - pesticides kill), and the extent of the problem with pesticides in non GM crops is much greater. Virtually all non-GM crops are sprayed with pesticide. Organic crops are in a tiny minority. If you want to go 100% organic, you won't achieve anything like the same yields so we need to consider the effects on the human population worldwide. Just a tip: Euthanasia is much kinder than death by starvation, but it's unlikely that you'd be able to manufacture enough bullets to keep up with demand.. |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Mar 31st, 2012 at 11:13am
Muso,
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Likewise almost all processed foods on your supermarket shelve WILL contain some GMO products. Quote:
This is only one part true because while some GMO's produce their own pesticide a huge majority are designed to resist pesticide so that you can spray it and kill weeds and not your crop. You will find that Monsanto the largest GM producer actually owns and produces the largest brands of pesticieds, so it would be horrible business for them to do what you are saying. A majority of there profit comes from the sale of round up. The resisting of pesticide does not mean that the plant does not absorb the dangerous chemicals tho. Quote:
This is simply not true, and on a large timescale GMO will actually be more damaging to our food supply because it will ruin the gentic structure or natural stains which will make it impossible for people to grow their own food unless it is GMO, which is controlled by a huge monopoly. Essentially the world food supply will be controlled by one corporation which has already proven itself to be the definition of the word evil, and who clearly do not care about the wellbeing of people. Quote:
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by muso on Mar 31st, 2012 at 1:42pm bobbythefap1 wrote on Mar 31st, 2012 at 11:13am:
You mean that they contain oil. That's the only product that comes from canola. As previously noted, these oils are just long chain fatty acids. A wide range of plants produce oils. Oil doesn't contain genetic material. There is an issue regarding Erucic acid, but I'll let you research that yourself. It's a problem with wild varieties as opposed to cultivars. Quote:
Strictly speaking, that only refers to herbicide resistance, and the only one I'm aware of is glyphosate (and glufosinate - the same applies). I don't know if you know the facts about glyphosate, but it's pretty innocuous stuff, and it breaks down so quickly that you can make a planting of any crop within a couple of weeks of application. A lot of these arguments about Monsanto spring from the globalisation conspirators. Pesticides are absorbed by plants regardless of whether they are sprayed or produced biologically, with the difference that the quantities are much greater when sprayed. By the way most of the pesticides (that act against insects) are anti-cholinesterase type pesticides. Their toxicity is acute. They are in the same family as nerve gases. The less we ingest the better, so the GM crop has advantages in that respect. With regards brands, there are many brands that market the same basic ingredients. The brand is irrelevant. For example, you can buy glyphosate from a wide range of suppliers. It doesn't need to carry the brand name "Roundup". The same goes for pesticides. Quote:
This is simply not true, and on a large timescale GMO will actually be more damaging to our food supply because it will ruin the gentic structure or natural stains which will make it impossible for people to grow their own food unless it is GMO, which is controlled by a huge monopoly. Essentially the world food supply will be controlled by one corporation which has already proven itself to be the definition of the word evil, and who clearly do not care about the wellbeing of people. [/quote] Well it has been used for something like 30 years, and the best that anybody has come up with is a study that states that pesticides are harmful. The issues related to drift are minimal by the fact that these crops are sterile (including the pollen) My point regarding starvation related to crops grown without pesticide. It comes down to three possibilities : 1. You grow organically worldwide (not just in the Developed world where people can afford it) Result- Yields are diminished. The result is starvation. I can look up the yields for organic crops if you like. Extrapolate worldwide and the only possible result is catastrophe. 2. You grow conventional crops and spray with pesticides (and herbicides pre-emergence). The pesticide exposure is much greater. Greater exposure provides greater health risks. Pre-emergence herbicides reduce yields to non resistant crops. (but nobody starves) 3. You grow GM pesticide producing crops and don't need to spray. Result - Reduced exposure to pesticides. The effects of the pesticides are the only detrimental effects of any magnitude reported in GM crops to date in the 30 years they have been in use in the US. 3(b) You grow glyphosate resistant GM crops. No additional consequence. (again, nobody starves) So I've clarified the position, and I hope you can see that I was specifically not arguing that GM crops will reduce starvation. Some of the anti-GM mentality comes from a hatred of corporations. My own observation is that the economical effects of GM crops in poorer countries is probably the worst consequence of their use. |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Mar 31st, 2012 at 3:33pm Quote:
Yes, I know what oils are. There are many problems that come from the cultivation of GM canola. GM has removed the genome which let the canola created erucic acid or something, but this has put at risk the stablilty of canola as a species. Quote:
GMO strands are designed to be resistant to a wide range of chemicals. While glyphosate is the main active ingredient in round up and similar pesticides they do have many other chemicals and substances which are dangerous to plants, the environment and people. With just a quick search this is what I could find: Quote:
Not nice stuff. Breaking down doesn’t mean it becomes non dangerous, it just means it is passed into the soil and plants in this case. Sorry but the arguments against Monsanto and GMO are based on hard scientific fact. The fact they are a corporation is irrelevant, although it does add many more problems to the list of thousands non corporation related. Problem is GMO and pesticides are found to be extremely dangerous even in much lower doses then are produced biologically by plants or sprayed in pesticide. These dangers range from organ damage to genetic mutation and permanent damage of DNA. The brand is not irrelevant; Monsanto GMO crops and Round Up are the biggest thing on the market by a huge amount. Their GMO is specifically tailored for Round Up, giving them a huge monopoly. I really don’t feel I should need to explain the dangers of letting one group have a monopoly over food and agriculture as a whole. Quote:
Muso there are literally thousands of studies, thousands of scientists, and a million reasons while all this is bad. The problems are in no way minimal and if you think they are you clearly haven’t read many studies or opinions on the issue. Quote:
GM crops may produce better yields for a short amount of time but before long they will have caused much more damage and starvation then what would happen without them. There is no reduced exposure to pesticides with GM crops, I don’t know where you are getting that idea from. There is consequence. Quote:
This is just ridiculous. And even if it was true it still does not justify any of what you are saying. Monsanto create hatred of corporations. Why would you want one corporation having complete monopoly food anyway? Is that really what you want? Quote:
You really need to look more into this. Read and watch all you can. You either don’t understand the ramifications or don’t know enough. I think GM is a good technology and needs to be expanded and learnt. BUT. This does not mean that it should have been released, or something that should be allowed to be patented. This is something which requires possibly centuries of investigation, research and testing before it goes to the production scale we see it at now. |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Mar 31st, 2012 at 6:55pm
Breaking:
FDA Deletes 1 Million Signatures for GMO Labeling Campaign http://naturalsociety.com/fda-deletes-1-million-signatures-for-gmo-labeling-campaign/#ixzz1qbopIlSj Quote:
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Mar 31st, 2012 at 7:11pm
GM food toxins found in the blood of 93% of unborn babies
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1388888/GM-food-toxins-blood-93-unborn-babies.html Quote:
Read more at the link |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by muso on Apr 1st, 2012 at 12:14pm
You really need to be more discriminating about your sources. Glyphosate causes genetic damage? Good grief, It must be among the few non-radioactive substances on earth to do that.
Anyway, I was talking about Australia. Here, the only GM crop that's actually eaten is canola, and in that case it's just the oil. The oil from GM canola is not significantly different from non-GM canola. I don't have time to talk about the wetting agents right now, but basically they are only skin irritants when at high concentration. There are plenty of similar substances that cause similar levels of irritation, including most disinfectants at high concentration. There are as many hyped up reports about GM foods as there are about nuclear power. They are almost all blown out of proportion by advocates and activists. |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 1st, 2012 at 2:06pm
Muso there is enough information and scientific study around to show there is a danger with glypohsate.
Certainly not something we should be risking on the whim of what the people selling it tell us. Either way more testing is needed and it should not have been put on the market without it. http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC33138 Quote:
The problem with canola is the effect it has on the environment and the natural species itself. Likewise it helps to mutate other plants such as weeds when cross pollinated etc.. Actually the oil is different in that it is genetically inhibited to not produce a certain chemical. Please don’t tell me you believe the whole "substantially equivalent" crap. Quote:
According to what? Yes these things are in other product but not ones we eat. There are also thousands upon thousands of scientific studies that prove GM is no good. All you have posted is opinion. While I have posted a wealth of information that you clearly cannot overcome. You have yet to respond to all of the serious information I have posted about. Stating that it’s just anti corporate wack jobs, while clearly the majority of scientists not payed off disagree with you. Not good enough Muso, Let’s start hearing some facts and not just opinion. Let’s see you try and respond to all of the studies I have posted on this thread. You got nothing. |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by muso on Apr 1st, 2012 at 3:45pm
OK, it's based on 20 years experience in hazardous materials. My BS meter is going off right left and centre, especially when I read about oil being genetically inhibited and glyphosate adjuvants causing genetic harm. These statements are to me clearly nonsensical.
In toxicological studies, we need to consider the route of exposure and the concentration among other things. The US EPA, who have the most stringent limitations anywhere (except that they are often ignored in the US) puts the toxicity of Glyphosate mixtures at something like 4000mg/kg. (very low) Here is another example of nonsense: http://www.naturalnews.com/034504_glyphosate_groundwater_contamination.html That site calls Glyphosate a GMO herbicide. That in itself is another nonsense statement. It has actually been used for something like 50 years, long before GMO's. You're talking about Glyphosate as if it has some inherent connection with GMO's. No GMO's produce Glyphosate. They are resistant to glyphosate, like many weed species. There is a lot of hype about glyphosate. What you should really be worrying about is OC and OP Pesticides. By the way, you seem to be a good thinker in general. I just think you've gone off the rails on this particular issue by believing activists. OK, not everything Monsanto says is correct either, but the truth is somewhere in the middle. What I'm saying is that some of these people are cherry picking. They seize on a property of a particular substance, but fail to contextualise that in terms of actual exposure. It's also clear from some of the language used, that they don't understand the basics. |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 1st, 2012 at 6:23pm
Upon further investigation the active ingredient in round up is actually Isopropylamine salt of glyphosate.
Which if you research is very dangerous. It is not the oil that is GM it is the canola plant. I don’t get what is nonsense about it being in the groundwater. It is a substance which seeps into the ground. Plus it gets washed into every above ground water system. The site calling it a pesticide is really just clarifying that they are talking about it in regards to pesticides so someone doesn’t get confused by its other uses, they need to do this. I’m not stating they have a connection, but that they are part of a web of problems in the industry. Quote:
I have nothing against GMO in principle, which is something someone who is just following the trend would not say. I just believe that it should have been researched for a long time before it was released on such a large scale. Monsanto is buggered up and that is a fact, they have and are putting many lives at risks if not the future our species, because the food supply is obviously that important. Quote:
This is an issue that you can come at from a million different angles. There are a million different problems. And that clearly does work to the biotech corporation’s advantage. I wouldn’t say people are cherry picking but working as a society to paint a big picture from many different brush strokes. In terms of exposure the level is high and that is not really a point of argument even by Monsanto and the like. Seems silly to say they don’t know anything.. We both know there are thousands of scientists in the field against it and for good reason |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by Imperium on Apr 1st, 2012 at 6:24pm
whats the big issue with GM crops anyway people have been genetically modifying their crops through planned cultivation for thousands of years.
the bananas youre eatin now aint the same bananas that people were pickin off trees in africa (or where ever they came from) in the paleolithic era. |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 1st, 2012 at 6:27pm barnaby joe wrote on Apr 1st, 2012 at 6:24pm:
You will find there is a big difference. The genetic modification of old was a gradual and natural process. Today the methods put at risk the stability of species of plants. By destroying our natural species it is possible that biotech corporations will gain a monopoly of the food industry for the entire world. Have a look at the links I have posted. Do some of your own research. . |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 1st, 2012 at 6:28pm
Muso,
Would you not agree tho that GM and to a certain extent pesticides is something that should have been researched, tested and improved for a very long time before it was released on the large scale that it was? Is this not enough reason to have great concern and contempt for the biotech corps? |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by Imperium on Apr 1st, 2012 at 6:28pm
ok but its just that when i hear the word 'natural' to imply an unqualified good red flags go off in my head
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 1st, 2012 at 6:29pm barnaby joe wrote on Apr 1st, 2012 at 6:28pm:
Natural in the sense it doesnt happen over night and can actually correct genetic problems. |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by Imperium on Apr 1st, 2012 at 6:31pm
plant eugenics
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 1st, 2012 at 6:36pm barnaby joe wrote on Apr 1st, 2012 at 6:31pm:
Pretty much |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by muso on Apr 2nd, 2012 at 11:23am bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 1st, 2012 at 6:23pm:
One of the problems is that most of what you read about it on the web is written by non-technical people who make some terrible gaffes. I really don't want to get involved in this any more than to say - Don't believe everything you read on this. I would far rather be involved in a roadside incident that involved Glyphosate than any of the Organophosphorus, or Organochlorine based pesticides, and I've been aksed to advise on both. By the way, the word "pesticide" used to be used to describe substances that were used to control faunal and micro-faunal pests. Nowadays, it also includes herbicides, some relatively non-toxic (such as glyphosate) and some (such as paraquat or N,N′-dimethyl-4,4′-bipyridinium dichloride) extremely toxic. Lumping all these substances together is a bit misleading in itself and can lead to inappropriate generalisation. All I suggest is to tread cautiously when reading articles for public consumption. As far as GMO's are concerned, they might actually save us in the long run. Evolution can't cope with the projected changes in climate, but genetically engineered foraminifera may help us with biosedimentation of excess CO2 from the oceans. They could be a last resort solution to ocean acidification. The way things are going, we'll probably need large scale bioengineering. You may shudder at the thought, but it's a reality. We may not have an option. The world's giovernments seem intent on the lemming strategy. I often think that some environmental activists are wasting a lot of time and effort "rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic". |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 2nd, 2012 at 11:39am
Once again Muso you’re giving all opinion and no fact.
Nothing you are saying can come close to combating the information I have posted on this thread. Quote:
Muso please stop trying to discredit me and my argument by stating this over and over when I have answered this point from you many times in this thread. It is simply not true for the majority. There is more than enough accurate information and scientific study supporting my opinion. Quote:
We know they are dangerous and the fact is they should not have been forced into the entire worlds food supply. Quote:
Irrelevant really, the major brands of pesticides are linked to huge medical, environmental and genetic problems. You are trying to ignore this by focusing on one ingredient. Quote:
For your information I have reviewed thousands of articles relating to the subject evenly from the pro and against side. I have based my opinion on fact, and there is plenty enough fact around to do so. You are the one generalizing one entire side of the story based on the say of a minute few; this does not justify you ignoring the important facts like you so clearly are. Quote:
I think you will find that plants would cope quite well, see an actual plant greenhouse for examples. GM and the involved pesticides are contributing far more pollution, dangerous chemicals and sediment into our oceans and water supplies. Quote:
Have you ever heard of aquaponics? There are plenty of cheap and efficient methods we can use instead of GM. You are right; we don’t have an option because it has been forced on the entire world population. World governments excluding the US, UK and Australia are waking up to the dangers and paying attention the scientific data and research which show they should not allow it to be grown. Quote:
LET’S SEE SOME FACTS LET’S SEE YOU COME UP WITH MORE THEN I HAVE! STOP FOCUSING ON A TINY PART OF THE ISSUE TO TRY AND DISCREDIT THE ENTIRE THING. |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by muso on Apr 2nd, 2012 at 11:47am
Let me expand on that deckchair comment with some examples.
In developed countries, we have the luxury of being able to buy "organic" foods, but the reality is that it's not sustainable because it comes at lower yields. As I said before, the world would starve if forced to grow everything organically. The brutal fact is that we need chemical pesticides, fertilisers and herbicides. We can't sustain our global population without them. We also need industry, and all industry pollutes. It's always a question of balancing risks. The Greenpeaces of this world throw their arms up in horror because of chlorination of water. "Chlorination produces dioxins!" is their catchcry. Well sure it does, but again it's a question of balancing risk. If you ask anybody in a remote African village if they would prefer the risk of dioxins to the risk of pathogens (eg bacteria), the dioxin risk wins hands down. You just have to look at the Age Expectancy in developed countries. These technological solutions such as chlorination, vaccination and the risks associated with industry carry a risk, but that risk is miniscule when compared to the risks of not chlorinating, not vaccinating, and living in a backward society without technology. Whenever environmental activists come up with "serious issues", I'm not saying that you should accept those issues without question, or reject them totally. All I'm saying is that the risk should be considered in context. The way they present it sometimes, you would think that Western countries would have a life expectancy of 51 and those with more natural lifestyles should have a life expectancy of 86. In fact it's the opposite way around. Quote:
In the context of what I've just said, how is that risk balanced by the risks of not using pesticides? |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by muso on Apr 2nd, 2012 at 11:56am bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 1st, 2012 at 6:28pm:
Answer me one thing - Do you believe that you can get genetic damage from oil (cooking oil) that has been distilled from oilseed and then processed by your digestive system? |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 2nd, 2012 at 12:00pm
LINKS PLEASE
Quote:
Links please. You will find there are many cheap, effecient and sustainable organic methods to grow crops with large yields. Also it is not sensible to destroy long term food supply for short term gain like GM does. Quote:
Links please. This is the most stupid thing you have said so far. Sorry Muso but I am not responding to the rest of your post. This is redicioulous. Return with some facts and evidence. |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 2nd, 2012 at 12:01pm muso wrote on Apr 2nd, 2012 at 11:56am:
Muso I am not going to answer this question again. This entire thread you have ignored the majority of what has been said and the facts that have been given. |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by Sprintcyclist on Apr 2nd, 2012 at 12:44pm My Cucumbers have had just 2 fruits, many flowers. resorted to hand pollinating them the other week, after doing the pumpkins |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 2nd, 2012 at 12:45pm Sprintcyclist wrote on Apr 2nd, 2012 at 12:44pm:
Just another serious problem as a result of GM. |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by chimera on Apr 2nd, 2012 at 1:30pm
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 2nd, 2012 at 4:01pm
Monsanto Corn Plant Losing Bug Resistance
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904009304576532742267732046.html Quote:
Here's a living example where Monsanto Bt Corn (GE spliced with Bacillus thuringiensis DNA which provides an in-plant pesticide on rootworms and caterpillars)... has FAILED and the corn plants have lost pest resistance in the WORST way: the rootworms, earworms, and caterpillars in subsequent generations have developed a mutant strain RESISTANT to Bacillus thuringiensis which had never yet occured before Monsanto splicing the Bt into Corn genes and upon consumption passing on a Bt resistant strain in subsequent generation. EPA: Monsanto GMO Corn Failing, Resistance Evolving http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/02/1041774/-EPA-Monsanto-GMO-Corn-Failing-Resistance-Evolving Quote:
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by muso on Apr 2nd, 2012 at 6:24pm bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 2nd, 2012 at 12:45pm:
I don't believe that the drop in insect population has been linked to GM foods. The last report I read pinned it down to Neonicotinoid. What's the connection with GM food? What else are you blaming on GMO's? Acne? If GM foods are so bad, why don't we notice more illnesses and deaths in countries that have adopted GM foods? You see headlines like: "GM food can cause cancer". The problem is that it's meaningless given that green cabbage and brussel sprouts can also cause cancer. Coffee is an IARC Group 2B carcinogen. Petrol and diesel are worse. Do you wear a respirator when you top up your car? The headlines need to be put in context. |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 2nd, 2012 at 10:54pm Quote:
Do a bit of research. We have noticed rises in disease, but obviously you can’t pinpoint the cause because the rises are unilateral. That is where the scientific research comes in linking gmo to countless diseases, organ failure etc.. Quote:
Why is GM the only product where we do not care about the results, which always show a plethora of serious health problems. Once again do some research? Are you even reading the links I am posting? __________________________________________ Death of the Bees. Genetically Modified Crops and the Decline of Bee Colonies in North America http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=25950 __________________________________________ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV9CCxdkOng |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 2nd, 2012 at 10:55pm
This Supermarket "Health Food" Killed These Baby Rats in Three Weeks
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/10/04/watch-out-there-are-more-problems-with-genetically-modified-foods-than-youre-allowed-to-know.aspx This is a good link to read Quote:
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by muso on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 10:33am
The research on GM foods tends to be polarised. Either it's backed by the likes of Monsanto, in which case it's biased towards GMO foods or it's sponsored by anti-GMO advocates, in which cases it's biased against GMO foods.
The best thing you can do is to read the reports and actively look for inconsistencies. There are plenty of inconsistencies in the links you provided. Unfortunately the truth is not out there. You have to search for it. As far as the Pusztai affair is concerned, I don't have all the facts, so I can't comment. I don't doubt that there is a fair bit of skullduggery going on by both Monsanto and the anti-GMO advocates. On balance, I don't believe that Monsanto or any other corporation would knowingly produce crops that would actually harm people. It wouldn't make sense from a liability standpoint for one thing. (Think James Hardie) It's one of these emotive issues. To be honest, I'd prefer not to waste my time on this issue, although when I see obvious technical errors, I tend to speak out. I question everything. We might have to agree to disagree on this. The more pressing issue is that of Anthropogenic Climate Change. There are a heck of a lot of people out there who don't think it's a problem. People need to know exactly how serious it is. |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 10:38am
Muso I will respond briefly,
You cannot justify the continual use of GMO's by saying that the evidence is clear. There is more than enough evidence to justify the discontinuation of GMO's. In reality there should only need to be one report showing the dangers of GM for people to stop and think, hmm maybe we shouldn’t allow this to be forced on the entire planet before we know better. You continue to discredit the entire argument due to some very small points which is really arrogant. Quote:
Biotech companies have proved thousands of times that they are not to be trusted. |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by falah on Apr 4th, 2012 at 9:10am
The oil companies and their supporters that oppose banning petroleum-based pesticides cite the increased yield as reason to keep the industry going.
It would be ironic if their chemicals actually inflicted the biggest loss of crop yields in history by wiping out bees which are needed for pollination. |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 4th, 2012 at 9:27am falah wrote on Apr 4th, 2012 at 9:10am:
If the bees are to become extinct or even endangered we will see a massive drop in certain crucial food production. They are also destroying the genetic makeup of plants which destroys future chances of growing food that isn’t gm, which is already known to be highly dangerous for the environment and humans. If they gain a full monopoly then the lives of billions are in the hands of the same people who created agent orange and other things like that... Need I say more? |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by muso on Apr 4th, 2012 at 1:13pm
I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that neonicotinoids were produced from plants such as nicotiana (tobacco species) and another one whose name escapes me for the moment (Duboisia perhaps?). It's not a petroleum product. It's actually alkaloid based.
They are almost certainly to blame for the drop in insect populations gievn the catasrtophic effects reported in Eastern Europe where they were first used. . |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by falah on Apr 4th, 2012 at 2:59pm muso wrote on Apr 4th, 2012 at 1:13pm:
The natural nicotine chemical is found in plants, but howis the synthetic chemical produced? |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by muso on Apr 4th, 2012 at 3:56pm falah wrote on Apr 4th, 2012 at 2:59pm:
All kinds of alkaloids are present in plants. To be honest, and as I indicated in my previous post, I don't know this for sure, but it would make sense that nicotine would be the raw material. An intelligent guess here since I don't have any industrial espionage data on Bayer, but I'd say that they would use nucleophilic substitution to produce the various neonicotinoids. I found this Fact Sheet for one neonicotinoid: (Imidacloprid) (That's interesting. I use "Advantage flea control" on my dog. Do you? ) http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Imidacloprid Quote:
I can research this further if you're interested. I have quite a reference library on pesticides. |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 4th, 2012 at 4:00pm muso wrote on Apr 4th, 2012 at 1:13pm:
Aids is natural too but I dont go sprinkling it over your soup do I? The drop in bee population is probably due to a mixture of problems. |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by muso on Apr 5th, 2012 at 11:11am bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 4th, 2012 at 4:00pm:
What's your problem? Have I ever said that neonicotinoids were justified? I was just replying to falah's point about the evil Oil companies and doing some research in the process. I noted that they were derived from nicotiana plants. Is a plant derivative more "natural" than an "oil" derivative anyway? The real concern is its ecotoxicity, is it not? I already said that neonicotinoids are probably to blame for the drop in bee population. There may indeed be other factors. I was just taken aback at the fact that they are present in a fairly well known product like Advantage. I'd hazard a guess that these substances are very widely used. |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 5th, 2012 at 11:24am muso wrote on Apr 5th, 2012 at 11:11am:
All things are natural, that doesn’t mean that we should be using them for commercial proposes. |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 5th, 2012 at 9:31pm
MONSANTO Bill S510/HR2751 BANS Homegrown FOOD Makes Private, Backyard Fruit, Veggie Gardens ILLEGAL!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUUS-pGm5PY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-LcbK1ZqRs |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 5th, 2012 at 9:33pm
Police Begin "Guns Drawn" Raids on Organic Food Stores in California
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b27EFldZ17k |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 5th, 2012 at 9:33pm
NZ food bill to make growing food a government privilege rather than a human right
http://www.naturalnews.com/034337_New_Zealand_food_freedom_human_rights.html Quote:
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 6th, 2012 at 10:02am
Lets face it, they act like they are guilty dont they.
____________________________________________ Monsanto Threatens to Sue Vermont if Legislators Pass a Bill Requiring GMO Food to Be Labeled http://www.alternet.org/food/154855/monsanto_threatens_to_sue_vermont_if_legislators_pass_a_bill_requiring_gmo_food_to_be_labeled?page=1 Quote:
____________________________________________ Poland to ban Monsanto’s genetically modified maize Quote:
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by muso on Apr 7th, 2012 at 7:50am
Did you just take everything at face value regarding the NZ Food Bill, or did you research it yourself?
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http://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/opinion/6271131/Nothing-to-fear-from-Food-Bill The Health Food industry is well overdue for an overhaul of regulations. Here's an example. The internet was rife with sites promoting Apricot Kernels as a cancer cure. Now in moderation, they are fine, but they do contain Amygdalin and Laetrile, which are both cyanogenic glycosides. There are many other examples of this. Nutmeg is another. http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1287169442/31#31 I still believe that a lot of this anti-industry reaction comes from a kind of paranoia. Some of it may be justified, but certainly not all. If what you "know" about GM foods is based on activist sites like that, maybe it's time to do a reality check. Look at other sources and use your own judgement a bit. The internet is rife with conspiracy theories. The trick is to be able to apply a BS filter. Beware - Pet theories can very quickly turn feral. Approach all emotive subjects like this with an open mind. Don't form any conclusions until you have had a chance to examine the evidence. Usually I find that subjects with a lot of emotive content form a perfect habitat for the Lesser Crested Bvllshit Spreader. |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 7th, 2012 at 11:22am
The bill is setting the way for stricter bills in the future.
And it really just helps push a monopoly on smaller farmers. Quote:
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A lot of it comes from common sense, there is a bigger picture that most people do not see; likewise most people don’t think about the future. Industry has some fatal flaws and while it’s a good short term idea, in the long term it is horrible unless of course you live in a world of infinite resources. Quote:
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Using emotive content is a justifiable tactic, if you have an opposition who thrive simply by using this then maybe facts aren’t enough to convince a human. |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by muso on Apr 7th, 2012 at 3:15pm
Did you listen to this programme when it was on ABC Radio? I always thought it was a good reality check on the use of pesticides and inorganic fertilisers. If you didn't, I'll try to retrieve some of the material off the web. The listeners chose to grow non GMO cotton. The outcome was quite an eye opener.
http://www.abc.net.au/rural/grow/about.htm |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 7th, 2012 at 3:28pm muso wrote on Apr 7th, 2012 at 3:15pm:
What were the outcomes? |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by muso on Apr 7th, 2012 at 4:18pm
The outcome was less important than the insight into the problems faced by cotton growers. It was quite a fascinating series. At the time I was driving long distances, so it made for some interesting listening. There were many things that I learned from this series, and by the way it wasn't sponsored by Monsanto or anything like that.
The yield was considerably reduced, but the cotton was of good quality. They ended up making cotton teeshirts out of it which they sold to listeners I presume. They actually made the teeshirts in Australia, which came at a considerable premium. I see that the sound bytes are missing, which is not surprising after 10 years. What I found really interesting was just how much of a balancing act cotton growing is in Australia. It was an eye-opener. |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 7th, 2012 at 4:28pm
Seems that there would be very little difference then, with higher quantity you get more specimens of high quality which would probably even itself out to the rates produced by GM.
Cotton is not a good crop for australia. |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by muso on Apr 7th, 2012 at 4:42pm
Actually I agree that cotton is not necessarily a good crop for Australia.
By the way the reduction in yield in that case, actually made the difference between economically viable and non-viable. Also read about his experiments in which he didn't apply any pesticide to a small portion of his crop. The results were quite dramatic. I found a reasonable summary of the "Grow your Own" programme, but I'm almost reluctant to give you this link. The first article on this site is questionable. Anything with the University of Guelph and M&M should be regarded as questionable. Unfortunately Climate change is another highly emotive issue, although I agree that we shouldn't be using fiction to get the message across. Read the one titled: 5 – Genetically modified organisms. It summarises where I stand on this issue quite well. It puts a risk management perspective on it. If we want to produce large quantities of crops such as wheat, corn and rice, then we are forced into mono cultures. Monocultures are great when it comes to materials handling and harvesting, but they introduce all kinds of problems such as disease and pests. We are practically forced into using pesticides and herbicides for weed control. By the way, I am well acquainted with Aquaculture. I was thinking of trying it out myself on a small scale. Maybe one day. |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 7th, 2012 at 5:00pm muso wrote on Apr 7th, 2012 at 4:42pm:
In the short term it is more viable, but in the long term poses much greater threats to the crops viability. What is the link? Climate change has been made into a highly emotive issue, and for good reason. Since we have been arguing about that we have forgotten that there are thousands of other real reasons why we should not be using fossil fuels, something that people were starting to realise just before the global warming phenomena hit. There are organic and pesticide free methods, in a communal basis they are more then what we need. Our current system is not economic and we need to set up local bases for growing food supply rather than importing and sourcing foods from 1000s of kms away. We could easily supply food for everyone on this planet except the methods to do it right are not able to be commercialised. Takes a few years to set up but it is one of the most rewarding form of agriculture |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by muso on Apr 7th, 2012 at 5:53pm bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 7th, 2012 at 5:00pm:
I tend to think that you'd come across the same stumbling blocks as with Renewable Energy, namely commercial interests, and no matter how much you may wish for a brave new world, the reality is that we're going to have to use the economic system we already have. It's not perfect, but having seen extreme Marxism induced poverty in Africa, I assure you that you definitely don't want to go there. Apart from that, we don't have time to experiment with different economical systems. The double standards can be quite bizarre, even in those who claim to be eco friendly. I checked out a new Vegetarian supplier in Brisbane last month, with Ecologically Friendly splashed across the door. I was amazed to find the Linda McCartney range of vegetarian pies and sausage rolls. They were manufactured in the UK! I have no arguments that Climate Change should be an emotive issue. Its effects will dominate that of just about everything else during the next century and beyond. I also agree that people don't have their priorities set appropriately and are missing some important issues. For example, we are losing plant species at an incredible rate and will continue to do so into the future, but we're not giving due consideration to preserving the genetic material and we're not looking at species that will be better suited to warmer and drier climatic conditions. (or warmer and wetter depending on the region). These are factors that have enormous effects on crop yield. By the way, there have been some encouraging trends towards urban based agriculture in recent times. |
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Title: Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Post by PoliticalPuppet on Apr 23rd, 2012 at 10:21am Quote:
Blamed for Bee Collapse, Monsanto Buys Leading Bee Research Firm http://theintelhub.com/2012/04/19/blamed-for-bee-collapse-monsanto-buys-leading-bee-research-firm/ Quote:
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