Two types of envy.

Bad envy: The coveting and hatred that others possess something they desire. It is perceived as an injustice that others possess more or better possessions, skills, or money than they. There are appeals to some kind of higher moral principle that there ought to be an equal sharing of possessions, skills, and money, and in some cases, the successful man be stripped of his possessions and then punished. This type of envy is often found amongst the Leftist political classes and is more than willing to use the executive branch of government to get their way.


Good envy: The admiration and reverence for the possessions, skills, or money of others. It is perceived as a sign of personal growth and excellence that the skillful man has achieved what he has. The good envious man wishes that he too possess what the skillful man has, but with one major difference: Honest competition that is based on reverence not hate. This type of envy is often found amongst sportsmen, musicians and sometimes writers; they will engage in harsh self-discipline to enhance their own skills to achieve what others have.

There is  no 'good envy'. It is called inspiration. It takes nothing away.

Bad envy - the only envy there is - is all about confiscation. There is none of that in inspiration.

Soren wrote on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 8:43pm:

There is  no 'good envy'. It is called inspiration. It takes nothing away. Bad envy - the only envy there is - is all about confiscation. There is none of that in inspiration.

Correct

Soren wrote on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 8:43pm:

There is  no 'good envy'.

Bourgeouse thinking, as usual. The faculty aims to propagate a healthy envy in the tinted classes - healthy because it will facilitate our historically ordained task of siezing the means of production (stage one).

As the vangard of the Pakistani proletariat, we will then channel these emotions after the revolution into more productive ends (stage two).

When the tinted races are deemed ready, and when the white imperialist classes are erased from history, our beneign stewardship will ease, and the tinted classes wll be completely emancipated (stage three).

See Karnal et al. The conditions of tinted class struggle and the stages of history in Journal of Pakistani Studies, Autumn ed., August 2009 [P. 22-48].

Soren wrote on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 8:43pm:

There is  no 'good envy'. It is called inspiration. It takes nothing away. Bad envy - the only envy there is - is all about confiscation. There is none of that in inspiration.

Inspiration doesn't encapsulate the notion of competition.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 30^th, 2012 at 8:50am:

Soren wrote on Jan 27th, 2012 at 8:43pm: There is  no 'good envy'. It is called inspiration. It takes nothing away. Bad envy - the only envy there is - is all about confiscation. There is none of that in inspiration. Inspiration doesn't encapsulate the notion of competition.

Sure it does. You are not inspired by your father, for instance, to be in his shadow all your life, to be second to him but to surpass him.  Which is, not coincidentally, why he would want to inspire you. Same with you and your children.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 30^th, 2012 at 8:50am:

Soren wrote on Jan 27th, 2012 at 8:43pm: There is  no 'good envy'. It is called inspiration. It takes nothing away. Bad envy - the only envy there is - is all about confiscation. There is none of that in inspiration. Inspiration doesn't encapsulate the notion of competition.

I'd add the word "necessarily" and you'd be right. There is a good envy. You hear it at barbecues, said with a smile.

"Good on you. You've got it all, mate. I wish I had your ...talent, patience (or whatever)"

muso wrote on Jan 30^th, 2012 at 4:04pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 30th, 2012 at 8:50am: Soren wrote on Jan 27th, 2012 at 8:43pm: There is  no 'good envy'. It is called inspiration. It takes nothing away. Bad envy - the only envy there is - is all about confiscation. There is none of that in inspiration. Inspiration doesn't encapsulate the notion of competition. I'd add the word "necessarily" and you'd be right. There is a good envy. You hear it at barbecues, said with a smile. "Good on you. You've got it all, mate. I wish I had your ...talent, patience (or whatever)"

Yeah, that's close to what I was trying to articulate.

Trying anything - cooking a bbq, even - already includes a sense of where excellence is, where failure is, where competence is.
Not wanting to fail is already a competition.
You want to be better than the people who had failed before you.

Soren wrote on Jan 30^th, 2012 at 9:08pm:

Not wanting to fail is already a competition. You want to be better than the people who had failed before you.

What about better than those who have succeeded?

Well, most of us recognise our limitations. But the question was whether it is possible to be inspired and not have a sense of competition.
I say no, inspiration, being a spur, is a form of competition - but not an envy, as envy wants, apart from anything else, take away, dimish what it envies. Inspiration doesn't want to take away, yet it want to excel.
That's where we are at. What do you think?

I'm scared to say, but I will anyway. Just remember before you shoot me down that although I am interested in discussions like this, I am new to them and I haven't given them a lot of consideration. Yet. I need to read more.

Ok.

I don't think envy is ever good - not just because it diminishes what it envies as you say, but because it diminishes the envious person in their own mind - it makes the envious person feel that they are lacking. It's self harming to be envious, is what I mean.


I haven't answered your question properly but I'm still struggling with envy. I'll deal with inspiration next.

Less of the self-flagellation sauce, my chit, you are on the money.


I mean to say, you are right. Envy diminishes the envious in a way that inspiration doesn't diminish the one who inspires, even when he is surpassed by the ones he has inspired (his whole purpose all along, of course. What would be the point of inspiring if on expected all to fall short? That would be forward envy, so to speak).

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jan 30^th, 2012 at 9:55pm:

I haven't answered your question properly but I'm still struggling with envy. I'll deal with inspiration next.

Careful. He might think you mean you're envious of him.  ;D


Annie Anthrax wrote on Jan 30^th, 2012 at 9:24pm:

What about better than those who have succeeded?

What about half as good as those who have succeeded?  I play keyboard, but I went to a David Helfgott concert a long time ago, and I remember wishing I could play half as well as he could. I was envious of his playing skills, but I wasn't envious of him as a person. In fact I was a bit embarrassed for him when he came out into the foyer and started kissing everybody in sight (both male and female).  At the same time, I felt that he could get away with his eccentricities because of his brilliance as a performer.

I think that was a mixture of envy and inspiration. I don't think you can always separate the two. There was certainly no jealousy.

Envy can be a positive thing the way I've heard it being used. Now jealousy is a different matter, (that green eyed monster which doth mock the meat it feeds on) but it may come down to the way that I've heard  words being used in common parlance. 

Jealousy usually relates to personal possession and competition with a rival. With envy, those attributes are not present. 

As a devout Pakistani, I often feel jealous of the Kazaks, Turkmens, even the Tajkiks. Some of them have the latest Russian jeeps, rocket launchers and many more sheep than we have.

Still, we will always have the Amerikans.

muso wrote on Jan 31^st, 2012 at 3:48pm:

I think that was a mixture of envy and inspiration. I don't think you can always separate the two.

Maybe it was a mix of admiration and inspiration?

Even if there is no good envy, I'm sure most people must feel it at some stage. I have. Jealousy too when I was younger. Hatred even. Rage. Grief. I don't regret them - I feel they were normal reactions to certain situations

Perhaps these are in a separate category to envy. Are they?

I woke up this morning wondering if inspiration was born out envy. Must have been some heavy dreaming done last night :)

envy is coveteus and begrudging, it wants to take away from the other in order to have for oneself. It operates with a zero-sum ledger.

Inspiration wants to be filled with the same motivation, spirit and striving for excellence, without wishing to diminish anyone else's achievement.

Envy is the source of hate, anger and deception.

Inspiration is the motivator of success and inovation.

Be content with your own abilities and use them to succeed, don't want what other have and do for these are the tools of discontent and failure.

Soren wrote on Jan 31^st, 2012 at 6:53pm:

envy is coveteus and begrudging, it wants to take away from the other in order to have for oneself. It operates with a zero-sum ledger. Inspiration wants to be filled with the same motivation, spirit and striving for excellence, without wishing to diminish anyone else's achievement.

Quote:

God defend our Free Land. From dissension, envy, hate, And corruption guard our State, Make our country good and great, God defend New Zealand.

- but then if the Kiwi's were envious of our beer, does that mean they want to take it away from us? (Bastards.)

muso wrote on Feb 1^st, 2012 at 8:48am:

Soren wrote on Jan 31st, 2012 at 6:53pm: envy is coveteus and begrudging, it wants to take away from the other in order to have for oneself. It operates with a zero-sum ledger. Inspiration wants to be filled with the same motivation, spirit and striving for excellence, without wishing to diminish anyone else's achievement. Quote: God defend our Free Land. From dissension, envy, hate, And corruption guard our State, Make our country good and great, God defend New Zealand. - but then if the Kiwi's were envious of our beer, does that mean they want to take it away from us? (Bastards.)

Sure they do, the covetous bastards.

Although why they would want a VB when they have all the Steinlager is a puzzle.

Kiwi beer is better than ours. Maybe they weren't envious after all - just competitive?

Jasin wrote on Jan 28^th, 2023 at 6:37am:

Kiwi beer is better than ours. Maybe they weren't envious after all - just competitive?

The Kiwis say:

In Australia -
you can't get a beer,
the sheilas look like blokes and the blokes are all queer and
if you really want a good time you might as well stay here.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBu88qzNNl4

NZ is the Lucky Country
I've found 5 leaf Clovers there.
Been told you can get 6 leaf clovers.

Jasin wrote on Jan 28^th, 2023 at 6:53am:

NZ is the Lucky Country I've found 5 leaf Clovers there. Been told you can get 6 leaf clovers.

Don't forget that Clover honey - oh and the Manuka honey.

Dirty Paki Khunt wrote on Jan 29^th, 2012 at 4:04pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 27th, 2012 at 8:43pm: There is  no 'good envy'. Bourgeouse thinking, as usual. The faculty aims to propagate a healthy envy in the tinted classes - healthy because it will facilitate our historically ordained task of siezing the means of production (stage one). As the vangard of the Pakistani proletariat, we will then channel these emotions after the revolution into more productive ends (stage two). When the tinted races are deemed ready, and when the white imperialist classes are erased from history, our beneign stewardship will ease, and the tinted classes wll be completely emancipated (stage three). See Karnal et al. The conditions of tinted class struggle and the stages of history in Journal of Pakistani Studies, Autumn ed., August 2009 [P. 22-48].

That is a good example of envy dressed up as ideology. Don't own anything, don't want to, because the government will take care of me.

I wonder Issuevoter if the Government's desire for total control forces people to rely so much upon them?