IT IS a simple case of 'if you can't beat them, join them'.   :-?

Retail giant Harvey Norman, which has long complained about the rise of international online shopping, last night began selling computer games via a website in Ireland that lets Australian consumers avoid GST.

Chairman Gerry Harvey said the company had launched the initiative reluctantly. ''We are not doing this with a great deal of joy. We have been able to do this for a long time, we have held off,'' he said. ''But you get to a point where you can't hold off.''


The electronics giant's ''direct import'' website sells Xbox, Nintendo and PlayStation video games at a significantly lower price than store-bought items.

Mr Harvey conceded the website would cannibalise video game sales from the company's bricks and mortar stores. ''The prices are miles cheaper than what we sell them at the moment,'' he said. ''If people want to buy the games in our stores they can. They will pay a much higher price.''

The move coincided with another day of carnage in the retail sector, with outdoor clothing and equipment company Kathmandu joining a growing list of high-profile names that have had their share prices savaged after revealing trading and profit slumps.   :'(

Kathmandu said strong sales growth reported just last month had stalled, with chief executive Peter Halkett saying weak consumer spending meant pre-Christmas trading had been below expectations.

Investors reacted savagely, slashing the company's share price from $1.65 to $1.23 - a drop of more than 25 per cent. It came days after shares in Billabong plummeted more than 30 per cent after the surf retailer forecast a decline in revenue.

At the close of trade yesterday, Billabong shares were down almost 80 per cent from their highest level this year.

The shares of several other big retailers - David Jones, Myer, Harvey Norman and JB Hi-Fi - were off more than 40 per cent from their year-high prices.

But in a glimmer of hope for retailers, a new survey has suggested the household savings binge that has hurt spending growth is starting to ease. The Melbourne Institute said about 45 per cent of households saved some of their income this month, down from 47 per cent in September.

Overall, the institute's index of household financial conditions deteriorated in December to 27.5, about 15 per cent lower than it was a year ago.

Mr Harvey, announcing Harvey Norman's move to online overseas shopping, said he had not spoken to the Australian Taxation Office about the company's new venture. ''There is no problem with the ATO, we haven't had a discussion but I don't see why we would,'' Mr Harvey said.

The company has sought legal advice to ensure the plan meets Australian requirements. All purchases on the site are GST-free as long as they don't exceed $1000.

The company's general manager for computers and communications, Ben McIntosh, said gamers had insisted on the new initiative.

''The Australian market and the consumers have been absolutely demanding global pricing and lower prices,'' Mr McIntosh said.   ;)

''We stand by this as a great new feature of the Australian market, and it's very, very exciting, we are going to absolutely rip up the Australian prices of computer games.''

The website is owned and operated by Harvey Norman Trading Ireland. ''Our Irish entity is the one that is making the offers to the customer and they will be invoicing the customer, therefore the customer is direct importing the game on their own behalf,'' Mr McIntosh said.

Mr Harvey said the Irish entity was a ''completely different'' company to Harvey Norman Australia.

He said the ''direct import'' website could soon offer customers other products. The company had been contemplating the online initiative for 12 months.

The Australian Productivity Commission announcement that it would take another six months to investigate the GST threshold of online purchases had sped up the company's decision, Mr Harvey said.

''Why should an offshore retailer be able to evade duty, evade GST, evade even more importantly all the on costs retailers have, the biggest ones are wages, advertising and rent?,'' he said. ''We will be just the same as any of those companies overseas

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/harvey-norman-joins-web-stampede-20111222-1p7cb.html#ixzz1hIHguYuP

UN-Australian Gerry  ;D ;D ;D

Can they pay for their computer games in 264 months?

if it is anything like harvey normals last attempt at a website it will be abysmal.

and funny how the items he is now selling offshore and online are still much cheaper even if GST were added. For months now Ive been making the point that the difference between offshore and onshore prices is not the 10% GST but is usully in the 30-50% range. simply adding GST to the costs of imported goods will make no difference to the number of sales. and its alreadsy been stated by customs that the cost of imposing GST on under $1000 imports is higher than the amount collected. I dont know what the answer is, but it certianly isnt adding gst!

He is only trying to force the government to act.

Problem is that the GST on these goods only explains 10% of the often 100% plus variation.

Gerry is barking up the wrong tree - this will not solve his problem - the problem is that Australian retailers have got fat and Lazy being protected from real world price structures for so long that they believe that on shelf bricks and mortar prices in Australia at over 100% greater than their international equivilant competitors is reasonable.

They have been ripping the Australian consumer off for decades and have finally been caught out.

Of course Mr Harvey and people like him can not beat them, as they don't want to cut their prices.  Fair and reasonable prices Mr Harvey.  Fair and reasonable prices.   :(    

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 7:28am:

if it is anything like harvey normals last attempt at a website it will be abysmal. and funny how the items he is now selling offshore and online are still much cheaper even if GST were added. For months now Ive been making the point that the difference between offshore and onshore prices is not the 10% GST but is usully in the 30-50% range. simply adding GST to the costs of imported goods will make no difference to the number of sales. and its alreadsy been stated by customs that the cost of imposing GST on under $1000 imports is higher than the amount collected. I dont know what the answer is, but it certianly isnt adding gst!

It's not about the GST. What these thugs are after is to tie the process up in so much red tape that it puts people off buying online :(

And this is this the same dude that you were calling a successful businessman !! As soon as he is confronted with some real competition from a backyarder on the Internet he crumbles to the ground !! Some businessman !! More like a whinging old woman !!

Dnarever wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 7:41am:

He is only trying to force the government to act. Problem is that the GST on these goods only explains 10% of the often 100% plus variation. Gerry is barking up the wrong tree - this will not solve his problem - the problem is that Australian retailers have got fat and Lazy being protected from real world price structures for so long that they believe that on shelf bricks and mortar prices in Australia at over 100% greater than their international equivilant competitors is reasonable. They have been ripping the Australian consumer off for decades and have finally been caught out.

Not to mention the shareholders greed and landlords greed which is the big elephant in the room that old Gerry doesn't want to talk about :(

wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 5:43am:

''The Australian market and the consumers have been absolutely demanding global pricing and lower prices,'' Mr McIntosh said.   ;) ''We stand by this as a great new feature of the Australian market, and it's very, very exciting, we are going to absolutely rip up the Australian prices of computer games.'' The website is owned and operated by Harvey Norman Trading Ireland. ''Our Irish entity is the one that is making the offers to the customer and they will be invoicing the customer, therefore the customer is direct importing the game on their own behalf,'' Mr McIntosh said. Mr Harvey said the Irish entity was a ''completely different'' company to Harvey Norman Australia. He said the ''direct import'' website could soon offer customers other products. The company had been contemplating the online initiative for 12 months.

It looks like he is going to undercut his bricks and mortar stores :D LOL

Welcome to to the real world Gerry ;)

Why do you have this burning hatred of Gerry Harvey Lastnail?

He seems a decent enough bloke to me.

I don't buy from his stores but I am not that bothered by him.

Sir lastnail wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 11:04am:

wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 5:43am: ''The Australian market and the consumers have been absolutely demanding global pricing and lower prices,'' Mr McIntosh said.   ;) ''We stand by this as a great new feature of the Australian market, and it's very, very exciting, we are going to absolutely rip up the Australian prices of computer games.'' The website is owned and operated by Harvey Norman Trading Ireland. ''Our Irish entity is the one that is making the offers to the customer and they will be invoicing the customer, therefore the customer is direct importing the game on their own behalf,'' Mr McIntosh said. Mr Harvey said the Irish entity was a ''completely different'' company to Harvey Norman Australia. He said the ''direct import'' website could soon offer customers other products. The company had been contemplating the online initiative for 12 months. It looks like he is going to undercut his bricks and mortar stores :D LOL Welcome to to the real world Gerry ;)

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D WOULDN'T YOU LIKE TO BE  SO SUCCESSFUL YOU LOOSER     ;D

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 11:12am:

Why do you have this burning hatred of Gerry Harvey Lastnail? He seems a decent enough bloke to me. I don't buy from his stores but I am not that bothered by him.

You just don't see the ulterior motive do you and that is to penalise and inconvenience anyone who buys online !!

Nothing decent about that :(

FRED. wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 11:14am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 11:04am: wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 5:43am: ''The Australian market and the consumers have been absolutely demanding global pricing and lower prices,'' Mr McIntosh said.   ;) ''We stand by this as a great new feature of the Australian market, and it's very, very exciting, we are going to absolutely rip up the Australian prices of computer games.'' The website is owned and operated by Harvey Norman Trading Ireland. ''Our Irish entity is the one that is making the offers to the customer and they will be invoicing the customer, therefore the customer is direct importing the game on their own behalf,'' Mr McIntosh said. Mr Harvey said the Irish entity was a ''completely different'' company to Harvey Norman Australia. He said the ''direct import'' website could soon offer customers other products. The company had been contemplating the online initiative for 12 months. It looks like he is going to undercut his bricks and mortar stores :D LOL Welcome to to the real world Gerry ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D WOULDN'T YOU LIKE TO BE  SO SUCCESSFUL YOU LOOSER     ;D

Freds back with his one liners. Maybe one day your reply will span two lines without the emoticons :D LOL

Sir lastnail wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 11:16am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 11:12am: Why do you have this burning hatred of Gerry Harvey Lastnail? He seems a decent enough bloke to me. I don't buy from his stores but I am not that bothered by him. You just don't see the ulterior motive do you and that is to penalise and inconvenience anyone who buys online !! Nothing decent about that :(

But if its not happening to you, why give a sh*t?

Look after your own houseblock and let others get ripped off if they want.

I couldn't give a monkey's toss for other people.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/harvey-norman-beats-gst-with-web-imports/story-e6frg8zx-1226228883218

Check this out !! Old Gerry is going to undercut his bricks and mortar stores :D LOL


Quote:

AUSTRALIA's biggest electrical retailer, Harvey Norman, will start shipping tax-free computer games direct to customers from Ireland, undercutting its chain of 166 Australian stores. The retailer, which controls 23 per cent of the market for electrical goods, yesterday launched an Irish-based "direct import" website selling cut-price Xbox, Nintendo and PlayStation games -- all free of GST and cheaper than products sold in-store.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 11:18am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 11:16am: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 11:12am: Why do you have this burning hatred of Gerry Harvey Lastnail? He seems a decent enough bloke to me. I don't buy from his stores but I am not that bothered by him. You just don't see the ulterior motive do you and that is to penalise and inconvenience anyone who buys online !! Nothing decent about that :( But if its not happening to you, why give a sh*t? Look after your own houseblock and let others get ripped off if they want. I couldn't give a monkey's toss for other people.

If he changes the rules and gets GST put on online goods under $1000 then I care don't you ??

Sounds like you got shares in old Harvey ;) What are they trading at now :D LOL

Do like I do mate and pick 'em up in HMV in Heathrow Duty Free.

Fifa 12 - 23.99 GBP
Melbourne - A$99

I have never bought an XBOX game in Australia.

Land of the rip-off.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 11:23am:

Do like I do mate and pick 'em up in HMV in Heathrow Duty Free. Fifa 12 - 23.99 GBP Melbourne - A$99 I have never bought an XBOX game in Australia. Land of the rip-off.

Well you just answered your own question. Old Harvey wants to impose GST on ALL online sales so that it puts people off getting a bargain online !!

And you wrecken nobody should complain about that !!

Sir lastnail wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 11:18am:

FRED. wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 11:14am: Sir lastnail wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 11:04am: wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 5:43am: ''The Australian market and the consumers have been absolutely demanding global pricing and lower prices,'' Mr McIntosh said.   ;) ''We stand by this as a great new feature of the Australian market, and it's very, very exciting, we are going to absolutely rip up the Australian prices of computer games.'' The website is owned and operated by Harvey Norman Trading Ireland. ''Our Irish entity is the one that is making the offers to the customer and they will be invoicing the customer, therefore the customer is direct importing the game on their own behalf,'' Mr McIntosh said. Mr Harvey said the Irish entity was a ''completely different'' company to Harvey Norman Australia. He said the ''direct import'' website could soon offer customers other products. The company had been contemplating the online initiative for 12 months. It looks like he is going to undercut his bricks and mortar stores :D LOL Welcome to to the real world Gerry ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D WOULDN'T YOU LIKE TO BE  SO SUCCESSFUL YOU LOOSER     ;D Freds back with his one liners. Maybe one day your reply will span two lines without the emoticons :D LOL

ONE LINE  ;D  TRY GETTING A JOB LOOSER  ;D   ;

FRED. wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 11:36am:

ONE LINE  ;D  TRY GETTING A JOB LOOSER  ;D   ;

you can't even spell loser properly :D LOL

Sir lastnail wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 11:26am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 11:23am: Do like I do mate and pick 'em up in HMV in Heathrow Duty Free. Fifa 12 - 23.99 GBP Melbourne - A$99 I have never bought an XBOX game in Australia. Land of the rip-off. Well you just answered your own question. Old Harvey wants to impose GST on ALL online sales so that it puts people off getting a bargain online !! And you wrecken nobody should complain about that !!

Gerry's not complaining, let made enough noise without any action from the government to pave the way for his own business which will not get captured under under australian taxation law or GST.

Looks like more profits shipped offshore at the expense of australians, and his offshore store for video games is very competitive.

Verge wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 11:52am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 11:26am: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 11:23am: Do like I do mate and pick 'em up in HMV in Heathrow Duty Free. Fifa 12 - 23.99 GBP Melbourne - A$99 I have never bought an XBOX game in Australia. Land of the rip-off. Well you just answered your own question. Old Harvey wants to impose GST on ALL online sales so that it puts people off getting a bargain online !! And you wrecken nobody should complain about that !! Gerry's not complaining, let made enough noise without any action from the government to pave the way for his own business which will not get captured under under australian taxation law or GST. Looks like more profits shipped offshore at the expense of australians, and his offshore store for video games is very competitive.

If you buy it cheaper who gives a rats arse whether it is from overseas or in Australia.

I would have thought you would have understood the concept of cost leadership strategy? Aussie accountancy must also cover that, we certainly did.

So who cares its from Brisbane or Bolton?
As long as you get it for a better price.

Cash is king my friend.

I'm a winner without Gerry.

This year I bought a watch which cost $725 in the local jewelers store
& on Ebay I got exactly the same genuine watch for $207  delivered.

That's a 350% markup at the local place.
No wonder people buy online & the 10% doesn't really enter into the equation.

Sir lastnail wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 11:49am:

FRED. wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 11:36am: ONE LINE  ;D  TRY GETTING A JOB LOOSER  ;D   ; you can't even spell loser properly :D LOL

LOOOOOSER     ;D ;D STILL GET A JOB  ;D ;D ;D

Bobby. wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 11:58am:

I'm a winner without Gerry. This year I bought a watch which cost $725 in the local jewelers store & on Ebay I got exactly the same genuine watch for $207  delivered. That's a 350% markup at the local place. No wonder people buy online & the 10% doesn't really enter into the equation.

Careful with ebay bobby.

Outside Macy's in Manhattan I recall a guy offering me a watch for $20 that he told me Macy was selling for $3,000.

Somehow I am not sure it was the same watch....

FRED. wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 12:02pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 11:49am: FRED. wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 11:36am: ONE LINE  ;D  TRY GETTING A JOB LOOSER  ;D   ; you can't even spell loser properly :D LOL LOOOOOSER     ;D ;D STILL GET A JOB  ;D ;D ;D

you get a job you illiterate moron. You can't even string a single sentence together :(

Verge wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 11:52am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 11:26am: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 11:23am: Do like I do mate and pick 'em up in HMV in Heathrow Duty Free. Fifa 12 - 23.99 GBP Melbourne - A$99 I have never bought an XBOX game in Australia. Land of the rip-off. Well you just answered your own question. Old Harvey wants to impose GST on ALL online sales so that it puts people off getting a bargain online !! And you wrecken nobody should complain about that !! Gerry's not complaining, let made enough noise without any action from the government to pave the way for his own business which will not get captured under under australian taxation law or GST. Looks like more profits shipped offshore at the expense of australians, and his offshore store for video games is very competitive.

But he is complaining ! He's always complaining because people have found away to bypass the ripoff merchants here and their $1000 a day rent !!

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 12:04pm:

Bobby. wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 11:58am: I'm a winner without Gerry. This year I bought a watch which cost $725 in the local jewelers store & on Ebay I got exactly the same genuine watch for $207  delivered. That's a 350% markup at the local place. No wonder people buy online & the 10% doesn't really enter into the equation. Careful with ebay bobby. Outside Macy's in Manhattan I recall a guy offering me a watch for $20 that he told me Macy was selling for $3,000. Somehow I am not sure it was the same watch....

what's that got to do with ebay ??

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 11:55am:

Verge wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 11:52am: Sir lastnail wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 11:26am: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 11:23am: Do like I do mate and pick 'em up in HMV in Heathrow Duty Free. Fifa 12 - 23.99 GBP Melbourne - A$99 I have never bought an XBOX game in Australia. Land of the rip-off. Well you just answered your own question. Old Harvey wants to impose GST on ALL online sales so that it puts people off getting a bargain online !! And you wrecken nobody should complain about that !! Gerry's not complaining, let made enough noise without any action from the government to pave the way for his own business which will not get captured under under australian taxation law or GST. Looks like more profits shipped offshore at the expense of australians, and his offshore store for video games is very competitive. If you buy it cheaper who gives a rats arse whether it is from overseas or in Australia. I would have thought you would have understood the concept of cost leadership strategy? Aussie accountancy must also cover that, we certainly did. So who cares its from Brisbane or Bolton? As long as you get it for a better price. Cash is king my friend.

You missed the point, the government has forced his business offshore.  Where do you think the profits will be taxed, not here thats for sure.

No taxation revenue for Oz as a result.

Sir lastnail wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 12:32pm:

FRED. wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 12:02pm: Sir lastnail wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 11:49am: FRED. wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 11:36am: ONE LINE  ;D  TRY GETTING A JOB LOOSER  ;D   ; you can't even spell loser properly :D LOL LOOOOOSER     ;D ;D STILL GET A JOB  ;D ;D ;D you get a job you illiterate moron. You can't even string a single sentence together :(

;D ;D ;D  I'M SORRY YOUR UNEMPLOYABLE  WING NUT

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 11:12am:

Why do you have this burning hatred of Gerry Harvey Lastnail? He seems a decent enough bloke to me. I don't buy from his stores but I am not that bothered by him.

he hates any mega-wealthy self-made men. actually he hates pretty much anyone with ANY success.

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 4:11pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 11:12am: Why do you have this burning hatred of Gerry Harvey Lastnail? He seems a decent enough bloke to me. I don't buy from his stores but I am not that bothered by him. he hates any mega-wealthy self-made men. actually he hates pretty much anyone with ANY success.

No Longweekend,
Nail hates rip off artists who overcharge for their products
& encourage people to get into debt over their heads.

Bobby. wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 4:14pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 4:11pm: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 11:12am: Why do you have this burning hatred of Gerry Harvey Lastnail? He seems a decent enough bloke to me. I don't buy from his stores but I am not that bothered by him. he hates any mega-wealthy self-made men. actually he hates pretty much anyone with ANY success. No Longweekend, Nail hates rip off artists who overcharge for their products & encourage people to get into debt over their heads.

Yep  People cant make their own decisions to stay out of debt poor weak minded souls   ;D ;D ;D ;D

FRED. wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 4:20pm:

Bobby. wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 4:14pm: longweekend58 wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 4:11pm: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 11:12am: Why do you have this burning hatred of Gerry Harvey Lastnail? He seems a decent enough bloke to me. I don't buy from his stores but I am not that bothered by him. he hates any mega-wealthy self-made men. actually he hates pretty much anyone with ANY success. No Longweekend, Nail hates rip off artists who overcharge for their products & encourage people to get into debt over their heads. Yep  People cant make their own decisions to stay out of debt poor weak minded souls   ;D ;D ;D ;D

People who really need a fridge ow whatever think - buy now
don't pay anything for years - it's tempting for someone without
a job who thinks they'll get a job in the next 2 years.
Have you seen the interest rate if they don't pay - wow!
Just a fridge can send you bankrupt.
  :o

Bobby. wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 4:27pm:

FRED. wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 4:20pm: Bobby. wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 4:14pm: longweekend58 wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 4:11pm: Andrei.Hicks wrote on Dec 23rd, 2011 at 11:12am: Why do you have this burning hatred of Gerry Harvey Lastnail? He seems a decent enough bloke to me. I don't buy from his stores but I am not that bothered by him. he hates any mega-wealthy self-made men. actually he hates pretty much anyone with ANY success. No Longweekend, Nail hates rip off artists who overcharge for their products & encourage people to get into debt over their heads. Yep  People cant make their own decisions to stay out of debt poor weak minded souls   ;D ;D ;D ;D People who really need a fridge ow whatever think - buy now don't pay anything for years - it's tempting for someone without a job who thinks they'll get a job in the next 2 years. Have you seen the interest rate if they don't pay - wow! Just a fridge can send you bankrupt.   :o

If you aint got a job you dont borrow the money
If you borrow the money you aint got a brain  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Hey Nails.

And you wrecken nobody should complain about that !!

you get a job you illiterate moron.


Last time i looked 'wrecken' wasn't spelt that way.

...and if you begin a sentence with 'and' that is how it is done.

When you begin a sentence you need to use a capitol letter as 'You get.............

LOSER.

blackadder wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 4:38pm:

Hey Nails. And you wrecken nobody should complain about that !! you get a job you illiterate moron. Last time i looked 'wrecken' wasn't spelt that way. ...and if you begin a sentence with 'and' that is how it is done. When you begin a sentence you need to use a capitol letter as 'You get............. LOSER.

capital

LOSER BLACKADDER

BUGGER. You got me there.

FRED. wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 4:35pm:

If you aint got a job you dont borrow the money If you borrow the money you aint got a brain  ;D ;D ;D ;D

A two lined response !! That must be a record for you Fredo :D  LOL