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http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl Member Run Boards >> Spirituality >> How Atheist Are You? http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1319412276 Message started by Sappho on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 9:24am

Title: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Sappho on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 9:24am

In this thread, I will contend that there is indeed a God and that its nature is to create the existence of physical things. The evidence for this God is existence itself which would not exist without the God that created it.

This God does not have religious text or doctrines to support it. No one worships this God. It is not necessarily anthropocentric.

Now... I have given you a God. I have advised you of its Nature. I have provided some very powerful evidence which is either direct evidence or highly persuasive circumstantial evidence.

Why as Atheists or Theists would you not believe that this God exists?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Sappho on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 9:44am

Creating the Logical Possibility for such a God as described above....

Everything that Humans understand about the universe is causal. Everything we use to explain the universe is causal. Every quest to learn more about the universe is causal. Humanity act causally in the universe treating it as a partner in causality. We are yet to find anything in the universe that does not have a causal relationship entailed.

It light of all this causality and the lack of first causes, current logic cannot allow for a non causal act of existence as it would contradict that which we know about the universe.

Therefore, based on current knowledge and logic, the Universe was caused.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Time on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 4:14pm

What caused the god that caused the universe?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Belgarion on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 4:20pm

Questions like these are why I am an agnostic. :)

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Amadd on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 4:23pm

Quote:

Why as Atheists or Theists would you not believe that this God exists?

Is this God a "conscious" entity which has the ability to intervene in occurrences such as: the weather, people's actions, earthquakes, etc?

Does this God relay instructions to "chosen" humans (men) so that these instructions may be written down for the whole world to follow?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Sappho on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 4:36pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 4:14pm:

What caused the god that caused the universe?

That is actually an irrelevance because it is beyond our ability to know... in the same way that an answer to the question What caused the big bang is beyond our ability to know. Now if a lack of knowledge on the cause of the big bang does not negate their having once existed a big bang, then equally, a lack of knowledge on the cause of God does not negate the existence of that God.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Sappho on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 4:42pm

Amadd wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 4:23pm:

Quote:

Why as Atheists or Theists would you not believe that this God exists?

This God does not have religious text or doctrines to support it. No one worships this God. It is not necessarily anthropocentric.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Amadd on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 7:33pm

Yes you did mention that there were no religious texts involved - my bad.

So in that case, I'll take one :)
Where's the shopping cart?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by helian on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 7:50pm

Sappho wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 4:42pm:

Amadd wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 4:23pm:

Quote:

Why as Atheists or Theists would you not believe that this God exists?

You looking for some add on tit bits so you can bring it into doubt? Sorry... no can do. I have told you all that can be known logically of this god.

I don't know if it is conscious... but I would assume it.

Otherwise, as I have already stated....

[quote]This God does not have religious text or doctrines to support it. No one worships this God. It is not necessarily anthropocentric.

[/quote]
A deist's 'god'. 'god' not God.

The true impetus to belief in God (in thought and act) requires that its existence must have a direct and tangible effect on the believer -beyond what can be imagined psychologically (i.e. it can intervene) ... Without interventionism, there is no need for belief in God... It is then only a synonym for 'first cause', or 'god'.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Sappho on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 7:58pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 7:50pm:

A deist's 'god'. A 'god' not God.

The true impetus to belief in God (in thought and act) requires that its existence must have a direct and tangible effect on the believer -beyond what can be imagined psychologically (i.e. it can intervene) ... Without interventionism, there is no need for belief in God... It is then only a synonym for 'first cause', or 'god'.

Hi there Helian... was waiting for the Deist god to be rattled around this thread.

I have a couple of issues with the Deism... first is the idea that god created the universe and then left it to its own devises... says who? god? How do the deists know that god did not tinker with his new toy?... second is this idea of perfection... the universe was created once and was so perfect it was left as it is.

I make no claims nor assumptions about God being capable of perfection... or lacking the curiosity to tinker with its created universe.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by helian on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 8:01pm

Sappho wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 7:58pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 7:50pm:

Hi Sappho... You've been gone awhile... Thought you must have left the building!

If you make no claims or assumptions then you are saying nothing.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Sappho on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 8:27pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 8:01pm:

If you make no claims or assumptions then you are saying nothing.

Not exactly what I meant. I make no claims about this God that cannot be known logically whereas the Deists do make claims and assumptions about their god which go beyond what can be known logically.

For example... Deists claim that their god created the universe but does not intervene within it. How can they know that? They can't logically know that! Now this claim comes with an assumption... that the universe was created so perfectly, it did not require intervention. Again, they can't logically know that!

I on the other hand am open to the idea that God is an interventionist but since it cannot be proven one way or another... I make no claim upon it... but it still remains a possibility and a perfectly logical possibility at that.

I can also claim quite logically that this God of which I speak is timeless... by our understanding of time anyway.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by helian on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 9:16pm

Sappho wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 8:27pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 8:01pm:

If you make no claims or assumptions then you are saying nothing.

Yes, I can see your point. I am not a deist.

So far all I can take from your position is that 'god' is a synonym for 'first cause' and nothing more.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Sappho on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 10:06pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 9:16pm:

So far all I can take from your position is that 'god' is a synonym for 'first cause' and nothing more.

No... God is not the first cause. To be the first cause would require some kind of material existence and existence within the universe... which is most easy to discount for Atheists.

Sorry Helian, what I am saying is that God created the first cause of our universe... The Big Bang. Logically, that would require of God that it exist outside of the first cause.

How can I explain this more easily? What about this analogy... A Baker does not exist within the cake, but exists outside the cake in order to create it.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by helian on Oct 25^th, 2011 at 5:32am

Sappho wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 10:06pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 9:16pm:

So far all I can take from your position is that 'god' is a synonym for 'first cause' and nothing more.

OK, let me rephrase...

As you can't (and don't) make any claims or assumptions about 'god' nor do you suggest that any claims or assumptions ever could be made about 'god', I can only take from your position is that your 'god' is synonymous with 'first cause' and nothing more.

Need we (or can we) say any more about this... 'god'?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Sappho on Oct 25^th, 2011 at 8:36am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 25^th, 2011 at 5:32am:

Well, that's not quite true. I have said that it is more probable that this God does intervene in its creation than not.

I think, the reason why people can say no more about this God has more to do with its lack of anthropomorphism.

Nonetheless, Helian, as a fully fledged Atheist, would you choose to not believe in this God and if so why so?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Oct 25^th, 2011 at 10:17am

In this thread, I will contend that there is indeed a Dog and that its nature is to create the existence of physical things (mostly in the garden). The evidence for this Dog is the existence of the sh1t itself which would not exist without the Dog that created it.

This Dog does not have religious text or doctrines to support it. No one worships this Dog. It is not necessarily anthropocentric.

Now... I have given you a Dog. I have advised you of its Nature. I have provided some very powerful evidence which is either direct evidence or highly persuasive circumstantial evidence.

Why as Atheists or Theists would you not believe that this Dog exists?

OK, I'll behave. Most Atheists are there for the protest value. I don't think of myself as an atheist or a theist because both are really just individual ideas, albeit collectively held.

It reminds me of the when I was a small child at the beach. I was very proud of my sand castle. I didn't know what a sand castle was supposed to look like, but I knew what I liked. There was this annoying little girl claiming that there were actual building standards for sandcastles. She had the nerve to kick down my sandcastle. She probably works for a planning department somewhere now. She was imposing her idea of what a sandcastle should be on me.

Gods are like sandcastles.

404.jpg (47 KB | 73 )

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by helian on Oct 25^th, 2011 at 11:52pm

Sappho wrote on Oct 25^th, 2011 at 8:36am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 25^th, 2011 at 5:32am:

Well, that's not quite true. I have said that it is more probable that this God does intervene in its creation than not.

So now you are making assumptions about 'god'...

Sappho wrote on Oct 25^th, 2011 at 8:36am:

I think, the reason why people can say no more about this God has more to do with its lack of anthropomorphism.

Nonetheless, Helian, as a fully fledged Atheist, would you choose to not believe in this God and if so why so?

How does it go...

"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent".

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Time on Oct 26^th, 2011 at 9:24am

Sappho wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 4:36pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 4:14pm:

What caused the god that caused the universe?

Fair enough, but it still begs the question.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Sappho on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 12:53am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 25^th, 2011 at 11:52pm:

How does it go...

"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent".

Exactly Helian... which brings me to my point. Atheism can only express a lack of belief in Theism. Yet on many an Atheist forum on matters whereof one cannot speak, thereof they speak to a lack of belief in same?

The word 'Atheism' is being watered down to include such people as them who would speak to a lack of belief in things of which we know nothing beyond its logical possibility.

Atheism, when it allows such absurdities, becomes a point of ridicule.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by helian on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 7:07am

Sappho wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 12:53am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 25^th, 2011 at 11:52pm:

How does it go...

"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent".

Exactly Helian... which brings me to my point. Atheism can only express a lack of belief in Theism.

True.

Atheism is disbelieving the proposition that God exists. Nothing more.

Where 'Disbelieving' is not attributively the same as believing or the believing-in or the having-faith-in.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Sappho on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 10:04am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 7:07am:

Atheism is disbelieving the proposition that God exists. Nothing more.

Where 'Disbelieving' is not attributively the same as believing or the believing-in or the having-faith-in.

With the exception of those who would speak to a lack of belief in things of which we know nothing beyond its logical possibility.

Logical possibility does not speak to belief or a lack thereof. Therefore, when a person dares to express a lack of belief in the logical possibility of a non theist god, they are speaking from faith.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Sappho on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 10:11am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 25^th, 2011 at 11:52pm:

Sappho wrote on Oct 25^th, 2011 at 8:36am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 25^th, 2011 at 5:32am:

Well, that's not quite true. I have said that it is more probable that this God does intervene in its creation than not.

So now you are making assumptions about 'god'...

I can see how you would think that was an assumption, but it wasn't.

If there is a creator that created the world then it is more probable that this creator tinkers with that creation than not, because the act of creation is to tinker in the first place.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by bobbythebat1 on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 10:54am

I don't believe in any bronze age myths anymore than I believe
in fairys at the bottom of the garden.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by helian on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 11:49am

Sappho wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 10:11am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 25^th, 2011 at 11:52pm:

Sappho wrote on Oct 25^th, 2011 at 8:36am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 25^th, 2011 at 5:32am:

Well, that's not quite true. I have said that it is more probable that this God does intervene in its creation than not.

So now you are making assumptions about 'god'...

If you equate creation with experimentation, then you are imagining a creator that tinkers (or must tinker because 'creating presupposes the need to tinker')... Which, on the face of it, is an anthropomorphic assumption...

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Grey on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 12:32pm

Sappho wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 4:36pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 4:14pm:

What caused the god that caused the universe?

We know there is a universe, we know that a big bang happened, we can SEE the big bang happening.

You can't compare that with any of the archaic creation myths. 'God' is no more valid than 'rainbow serpent' and not nearly as attractive.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 2:48pm

Lord Ganesha is better.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by helian on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 3:26pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 11:49am:

Sappho wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 10:11am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 25^th, 2011 at 11:52pm:

Sappho wrote on Oct 25^th, 2011 at 8:36am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 25^th, 2011 at 5:32am:

Well, that's not quite true. I have said that it is more probable that this God does intervene in its creation than not.

So now you are making assumptions about 'god'...

Sappho... You originally went out of your way to de-anthropomorphise 'god' (or the god factor)... But progressively you have attributed anthropomorphic characteristics... Why, for example, does your notion of creation (as you ascribe to 'god') necessarily require experimentation (or tinkering)?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Amadd on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 1:06am

Quote:

Sorry Helian, what I am saying is that God created the first cause of our universe... The Big Bang. Logically, that would require of God that it exist outside of the first cause.

We live and we die, it is you that supposes that this is the way of all things.
Some theories summize that we are in an "expanding phase" of our universe. When all energy is expended, the universe will then contract towards a single focal point over trillions of years, and the big bang will happen all over again.
These are just theories, and have no real impact upon me nor anybody else within my lifetime. So I take it as just an interesting theory and nothing else.

There is no logical conclusion that there must be a God who presides over all things living and dead.
There is no logical conclusion that there must be a beginning and an end.
All that we ever see seems to go on forever. Is that such a problem?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Sappho on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 1:36am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 3:26pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 11:49am:

Sappho wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 10:11am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 25^th, 2011 at 11:52pm:

Sappho wrote on Oct 25^th, 2011 at 8:36am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 25^th, 2011 at 5:32am:

Well, that's not quite true. I have said that it is more probable that this God does intervene in its creation than not.

So now you are making assumptions about 'god'...

I am not assigning anthropomorphic characteristics to 'god'. I am applying probability theory to god. I am saying that creation is tinkering in and of itself so therefore it is more probable that god tinkers with the universe than not. We have evidence of it having occurred previously at least once and we have no evidence that it does not occur.

All this is based on logical possibility and not actual reality mind you. But even within logical possibility there is scope, given the circumstances, to assess probability.

With regard to tinkering, other primates have been witnessed tinkering with their surrounds, using objects therein in ways that are unique and functional. Tinkering therefore is not an anthropomorphic quality.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by jalane33 on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 3:56am

seems to me Sappho that you purport of a reality where there IS GOD.
Playing Devil's advocate?

What a sad thing it is - you are stuck in the loop - you seem to profoundly believe that .'not being able to prove the existence of God does not disprove that God exists. because, of course, there is NO PROOF that God does, did, or may have ever existed, except in folklore.

I see no proof of 'God' , not that I am looking. I realised in my childhood that God was a human invention..and that human's will believe what they choose, wrong-headed or not.

I have a question for you

How can the concept of 'God' be anything BUT a human invention.? Existing only in susceptible minds.

EH??

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by helian on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 5:59am

Sappho wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 1:36am:

. I am saying that creation is tinkering in and of itself

Creation is necessarily tinkering is it?

Tinkering with what?

What is the thing with which your 'god' tinkered to create?

Sappho wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 1:36am:

With regard to tinkering, other primates have been witnessed tinkering with their surrounds, using objects therein in ways that are unique and functional.

But you'd agree that tinkering requires mind... An imperfect and contingent mind.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Sappho on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 10:22am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 5:59am:

What is the thing with which your 'god' tinkered to create?

Existence.

Quote:

But you'd agree that tinkering requires mind... An imperfect and contingent mind.

I'd agree that mind is contingent with a god creation. I have no idea whether that mind is perfect or not.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Sappho on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 10:57am

Emma wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 3:56am:

seems to me Sappho that you purport of a reality where there IS GOD.
Playing Devil's advocate?

I guess you've never had the opportunity to engage in philosophical thought experiments, which would explain why you cannot see one when it is staring you in the face!

Quote:

What a sad thing it is - you are stuck in the loop - you seem to profoundly believe that .'not being able to prove the existence of God does not disprove that God exists. because, of course, there is NO PROOF that God does, did, or may have ever existed, except in folklore.

This is not about proving definitively the existence of a god or not. This is about the absurdity of claiming a lack of belief in that which is merely logically possible.

For example, the square is a logical possibility defined as that which has four straight lines of equal length at 90 degree right angles to each other. In reality however there are no squares which satisfy that definition. Are we to say because of this that we lack a belief in squares?

Quote:

I see no proof of 'God' , not that I am looking. I realised in my childhood that God was a human invention..and that human's will believe what they choose, wrong-headed or not.

The theory of atoms (atomos), which is about the nature of matter, is a human invention born of the Ancient Greeks. The theory argues from logical possibility that matter is not infinitely dividable.

There is no evidence for this logical possibility. But as you say, 'human's will believe what they choose, wrong-headed or not.' No surprise then that some scientists have claimed that finally... after more than two thousand years... that we have found the that indivisible matter and it is called a quark. But have we found the smallest constituent of matter, or have we reached the limits of our ability to detect matter given the current instrumentation in use?

More interestingly, iff the universe was born of a Big Bang, then it is more probable that matter is infinitely dividable. How else can you get to that singularity?

All of this is to show that it is absurd to assign truth values/ belief values to that which is merely logically possible.

Quote:

I have a question for you

How can the concept of 'God' be anything BUT a human invention.? Existing only in susceptible minds.

EH??

It is logically possible that other intelligent life exists in the universe and that they have a concept of a god.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by helian on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 11:38am

Sappho wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 10:22am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 5:59am:

What is the thing with which your 'god' tinkered to create?

Existence.

Existence is the result of creation... It comes after the fact. You are claiming that creation is in itself tinkering.

Sappho wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 10:22am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 5:59am:

But you'd agree that tinkering requires mind... An imperfect and contingent mind.

I'd agree that mind is contingent with a god creation. I have no idea whether that mind is perfect or not.

Mind is ultimately necessarily contingent upon existence which is contingent upon creation.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Sappho on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 11:51am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 11:38am:

Sappho wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 10:22am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 5:59am:

What is the thing with which your 'god' tinkered to create?

Existence.

Existence is the result of creation... It comes after the fact. You are claiming that creation is in itself tinkering.

Now that Helian is an anthropomorphic response to a non anthropomorphic answer to your question. LOLz...

It must be remembered that the logical possibility being explored here is that god existed prior to our universe existing... therefore, god has tinkered with existence and in so doing, created our universe.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by helian on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 11:56am

Sappho wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 11:51am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 11:38am:

Sappho wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 10:22am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 5:59am:

What is the thing with which your 'god' tinkered to create?

Existence.

Existence is the result of creation... It comes after the fact. You are claiming that creation is in itself tinkering.

I see... You mean existence as in 'existence'.

So this 'existence' possibly preceded creation and that 'existence' was evolving (due to tinkering by 'god') prior to creation.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by helian on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 12:14pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 11:56am:

Sappho wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 11:51am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 11:38am:

Sappho wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 10:22am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 5:59am:

What is the thing with which your 'god' tinkered to create?

Existence.

Existence is the result of creation... It comes after the fact. You are claiming that creation is in itself tinkering.

I see... You mean existence as in 'existence'.

So this 'existence' possibly preceded creation and that 'existence' was evolving (due to tinkering by 'god') prior to creation.

Is there anything else we can load on?

What about an 'anti-god' who attempts to negate all that 'god' did and does, both prior to and after creation? Could that explain 'tinkering'?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Sappho on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 1:03pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 11:56am:

Sappho wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 11:51am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 11:38am:

Sappho wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 10:22am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 5:59am:

What is the thing with which your 'god' tinkered to create?

Existence.

Existence is the result of creation... It comes after the fact. You are claiming that creation is in itself tinkering.

I see... You mean existence as in 'existence'.

So this 'existence' possibly preceded creation and that 'existence' was evolving (due to tinkering by 'god') prior to creation.

Iff god created the universe, then god existed before the creation of the universe. It's a logical necessity. Draw a Venn diagram if you need to see the necessity of that condition Helian.

As to existence evolving... I make no such claims. I can't even conceive of what that means.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by helian on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 1:06pm

Sappho wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 1:03pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 11:56am:

Sappho wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 11:51am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 11:38am:

Sappho wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 10:22am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 5:59am:

What is the thing with which your 'god' tinkered to create?

Existence.

Existence is the result of creation... It comes after the fact. You are claiming that creation is in itself tinkering.

I see... You mean existence as in 'existence'.

So this 'existence' possibly preceded creation and that 'existence' was evolving (due to tinkering by 'god') prior to creation.

OK... Strike 'evolving'... Replace with 'being tinkered with'.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by jalane33 on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 3:20pm

Quite so Sappho, never have -

All of this is to show that it is absurd to assign truth values/ belief values to that which is merely logically possible.

OK - thanks. Only IS the God concept logically possible? Its always seemed perfectly illogical to me.
I think that'll be my final post.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Sappho on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 9:05pm

Helian... I've already made my point and you agree with me... so why are we still playing with logical possibility?

Quote:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 1:06pm:

So this 'existence' possibly preceded creation and that 'existence' was being tinkered with prior to creation.

OK... Strike 'evolving'... Replace with 'being tinkered with'.

I've done that now. Now what did you want to know?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by helian on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 11:49pm

Sappho wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 9:05pm:

Helian... I've already made my point and you agree with me... so why are we still playing with logical possibility?

Quote:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 1:06pm:

So this 'existence' possibly preceded creation and that 'existence' was being tinkered with prior to creation.

OK... Strike 'evolving'... Replace with 'being tinkered with'.

I've done that now. Now what did you want to know?

What is 'existence' (i.e. that which existed prior to creation), that 'god' tinkered with)?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Sappho on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:13am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 11:49pm:

Sappho wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 9:05pm:

Helian... I've already made my point and you agree with me... so why are we still playing with logical possibility?

Quote:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 1:06pm:

So this 'existence' possibly preceded creation and that 'existence' was being tinkered with prior to creation.

OK... Strike 'evolving'... Replace with 'being tinkered with'.

I've done that now. Now what did you want to know?

What is 'existence' (i.e. that which existed prior to creation), that 'god' tinkered with)?

LOL... surely you can see that deductive reasoning can address this without ever 'actually' addressing this? On that score we have a lot to thank Descartes.

But since you insist... Iff there is a god that created the universe, then that god existed before the universe. Iff there is a god that created the universe, then that god has a mind, at the least. Iff the mind of god, shifts from not creating a universe, to creating a universe, then the Will of that god has shifted in kind. The Will of god is of gods existence. Therefore, gods existence changes when its Will has changed.

;)

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by helian on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:19am

Sappho wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:13am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 11:49pm:

Sappho wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 9:05pm:

Helian... I've already made my point and you agree with me... so why are we still playing with logical possibility?

Quote:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 1:06pm:

So this 'existence' possibly preceded creation and that 'existence' was being tinkered with prior to creation.

OK... Strike 'evolving'... Replace with 'being tinkered with'.

I've done that now. Now what did you want to know?

What is 'existence' (i.e. that which existed prior to creation), that 'god' tinkered with)?

So 'existence' (prior to existence) is synonymous with 'god'... To speak of 'existence' is to speak of 'god'.

What of tinkering with 'existence'?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Sappho on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:38am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:19am:

Sappho wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:13am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 11:49pm:

Sappho wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 9:05pm:

Helian... I've already made my point and you agree with me... so why are we still playing with logical possibility?

Quote:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 1:06pm:

So this 'existence' possibly preceded creation and that 'existence' was being tinkered with prior to creation.

OK... Strike 'evolving'... Replace with 'being tinkered with'.

I've done that now. Now what did you want to know?

What is 'existence' (i.e. that which existed prior to creation), that 'god' tinkered with)?

So 'existence' (prior to existence) is synonymous with 'god'... To speak of 'existence' is to speak of 'god'.

What of tinkering with 'existence'?

No Helian. That's not what it says. I wouldn't even presume to say such a thing. Deductive reasoning can only go so far as the Will of god which when changed, is equally a change in existence. There may be other factors changing existence from gods perspective of which we know naught.

And before you try and push that envelope again... of this god's Will we know nothing beyond its will to create.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 2:24pm

Sappho wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:13am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 11:49pm:

Sappho wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 9:05pm:

Helian... I've already made my point and you agree with me... so why are we still playing with logical possibility?

Quote:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 1:06pm:

So this 'existence' possibly preceded creation and that 'existence' was being tinkered with prior to creation.

OK... Strike 'evolving'... Replace with 'being tinkered with'.

I've done that now. Now what did you want to know?

What is 'existence' (i.e. that which existed prior to creation), that 'god' tinkered with)?

Or to give my elephant example, the will of the elephant must have shifted when "He" created the microcosm of the frogs.

He didn't know that his will had changed, but all the philosophers in this world say it did, so it must have.

Deism is the bastard child of Reason and Christianity, who had a wild drunken fling together and lived to regret it. Now they both reject their offspring.

To assert "will" or even "sentience" is drawing a very long bow.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by helian on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:17pm

Sappho wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:38am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:19am:

Sappho wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:13am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 11:49pm:

Sappho wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 9:05pm:

Helian... I've already made my point and you agree with me... so why are we still playing with logical possibility?

Quote:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 1:06pm:

So this 'existence' possibly preceded creation and that 'existence' was being tinkered with prior to creation.

OK... Strike 'evolving'... Replace with 'being tinkered with'.

I've done that now. Now what did you want to know?

What is 'existence' (i.e. that which existed prior to creation), that 'god' tinkered with)?

So 'existence' (prior to existence) is synonymous with 'god'... To speak of 'existence' is to speak of 'god'.

What of tinkering with 'existence'?

It's not what it said, but I was interested in what you said...

You introduced 'existence' (prior to existence) and tinkering... I was hoping you'd amplify your reasons for introducing them into your argument.

And now you've introduced will...

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by jalane33 on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:43pm

Sorry - my last post was the penultimate.

YAWN! ::)

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by helian on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:59pm

Emma wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:43pm:

Sorry - my last post was the penultimate.

YAWN! ::)

Last post then?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Amadd on Nov 1^st, 2011 at 5:28am

Nearly

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by helian on Nov 1^st, 2011 at 6:18am

Amadd wrote on Nov 1^st, 2011 at 5:28am:

Nearly

Nah... She didn't bite...

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by helian on Nov 1^st, 2011 at 7:16am

So far we've got :

'god'

'existence' before existence

Tinkering

And now... Will

How much can we pack load onto this wagon?

I was hoping we'd be only a post away from introducing an 'anti-god' inextricably bound to 'god' in some form of celestial adversarial dualism, to explain tinkering... Like, 'god' creates and 'anti-god' destroys or subverts...

Who knows? We may need a 'GOD' to explain 'god' and 'anti-god' and 'EXISTENCE' to explain 'existence' before existence ...

Stay tuned... It may still happen...

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Nov 1^st, 2011 at 9:15am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 1^st, 2011 at 7:16am:

Who knows? We may need a 'GOD' to explain 'god' and 'anti-god' and 'EXISTENCE' to explain 'existence' before existence ...

Stay tuned... It may still happen...

- and for that matter, to explain "before" before we had before.

Prior to existence, there was no "prior to". Space and Time became inextricably linked at that time.

Talking about "prior to" the Big Bang is a bit like talking about falling off the edge of the world (think Christopher Columbus' crew) - but that's ok. I like reading the ramblings of philosophers.

The term "without" is better than "prior to" in that context.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Nov 1^st, 2011 at 9:20am

Explain 'explain'.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by helian on Nov 3^rd, 2011 at 7:24am

Seems any time someone sets out to prove the existence of 'god' (or even suggest the logical possibility of "god's" existence... It doesn't take long before the argument looks as overloaded as Jed Clampett's car.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Nov 3^rd, 2011 at 1:35pm

My general observation is that if something that is false is assumed to be true, then the consequences (the baggage that overloads Jed Clampett's car) start to become more and more patently absurd, until it gets to the stage where everybody but the very devout starts to recognise that the emperor has no clothes.

That seems to be the case here.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by jalane33 on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 12:55am

hear hear

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by jalane33 on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 12:56am

oh no - blew it!!!!!
BYE

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 6:29am

Emma wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 12:56am:

oh no - blew it!!!!!
BYE

:o
Well at least blowing it is better than inhaling it......?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Amadd on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 6:36am

That might provide a slight reason as to why devout capitalists seem to align wholly with the reasoning of Christ, who would appear to be, on face value, their natural enemy in moral terms.

Don't really care to work them out myself. All that I know is that they are greedy fuskc looking to rationalise themselves in some stupid and ridiculous manner.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 10:49am

Amadd wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 6:36am:

That might provide a slight reason as to why devout capitalists seem to align ~~wholly~~ superficially with the reasoning of Christ, who would appear to be, on face value, their natural enemy in moral terms.

Don't really care to work them out myself. All that I know is that they are greedy fuskc looking to rationalise themselves in some stupid and ridiculous manner.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by jalane33 on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 11:45pm

'Well at least blowing it is better than inhaling it......?' - MMMM.?

:-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Nov 7^th, 2011 at 8:59pm

Emma wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 11:45pm:

'Well at least blowing it is better than inhaling it......?' - MMMM.?

:-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X

At least you have a sense of humour. ;)

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Kytro on Nov 18^th, 2011 at 1:30pm

Sappho wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 9:44am:

Therefore, based on current knowledge and logic, the Universe was caused.

Causality exists because of time, which is a property of the universe. Without the universe there can be no causality

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by jalane33 on Nov 19^th, 2011 at 2:29am

I swear (shockingly at times,!! :)) ... BUT!!!!!!!
Enough already- ...........Sorry this is it .....
The Final Post.

Look at the Topic again. How Atheist Are You??
;D ;D ;D ;D Oh you Wicked Jester. ;) :) :)Please - - if you are an Atheist- you don't get into discussions about the whole GOD thing. NOT INTERESTED.!! Get it?

Time Schmime- Causality- Universe - Existence - Will,....... what a load of Pooee.
Atheism isn't held incrementally.

You ARE or You are NOT.
If you get into this senseless discussion with any sincerity YOU are NOT an ATHEIST.
YOU ARE AGNOSTIC.

The topic doesn't equate to "HOW RELIGIOUS ARE YOU?"
Look at the question again.

" Oh I sort of think maybe that there could be ...."
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
NOPE NO WAY JOSE
:-X :-X :-X :-X

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Amadd on Nov 20^th, 2011 at 12:28am

Correct me if you like Muso, but I am the master of my own destination, and you are not the master of my words.

I said wholly, and I meant wholly.

They are wholly superficial, and that's what I meant.
You are just a pathetic suck Muso..not more.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Nov 20^th, 2011 at 9:16am

Amadd wrote on Nov 20^th, 2011 at 12:28am:

Relax - I didn't change your actual post (check back). I changed the quote in my post to reflect my personal view. I agreed with most of your post. I wasn't wearing my moderator hat. I was actually wearing my very casual faded baseball cap with paint smears on it in that post.

Don't be so touchy. We agree (I think). The conservative Religious Right in the US in particular are very superficial. I agree that they are Wholly superficial, even if they do claim to be wholier than thou. :P - and I meant no disrespect to your destination either.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Amadd on Nov 20^th, 2011 at 4:59pm

Ok ;)

;D

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by GoddyofOz on Dec 10^th, 2011 at 6:53pm

I am as Atheist as Atheist gets.

Religion in general, whether it be Christianity, Islam, Judaism or whatever, it is just one massive, primitive joke.

It's like Steam Engines being the primary mode of power in the 21st century, it is just not compatible or relevant anymore, and the younger generations are waking up to it. In another 3 or 4 generations, I would argue that the Religious will be a minority.

Religion was a tool used during the earliest civilizations to enforce authority, the will of the elitist and a caste system onto a populous that didn't know any better. Fat cats like the Pope and any King or Queen you can name got rich and powerful off of peoples hopes, passions and above all, their ignorance. Jerusalum was a symbol of power over other races and creeds that every faction wanted to control, and they used the will of God as a smoke screen to hide their bigotry and war mongering.

The same could be applied today, but albeit in a declining state. The Vatican is the picture perfect example of pomp and circumstance cloaked in spiritual self importance, and liberties, respect and dignity suffer as a result.

It must end, and it will end. It's only a matter of time, and humanity as a whole will be all the better for it.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by left_handed on Dec 10^th, 2011 at 7:08pm

Why does it not surpeise me that you would be for restricting personal liberties

Typical leftard

Do not post insults on my board. It is not appreciated or welcome. If you want to insult someone, go try out one of the many other boards on this forum that allow that kind of crap. If there is a next time, it will be removed.

Thanks.
Sappho

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by GoddyofOz on Dec 11^th, 2011 at 12:55am

left_handed wrote on Dec 10^th, 2011 at 7:08pm:

Looks like I touched a nerve. The truth hurts, so don't blame me for that fact.

I don't tolerate baiting other members either. Just keep to the topic please and play nicely.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Lisa on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 1:40pm

GoddyofOz wrote on Dec 10^th, 2011 at 6:53pm:

And what if it doesn't?? What then??

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by GoddyofOz on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 4:01pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 1:40pm:

GoddyofOz wrote on Dec 10^th, 2011 at 6:53pm:

And what if it doesn't?? What then??

What if it does? What then? See I can ask loaded questions as well.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Lisa on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 4:18pm

You're merely avoiding questions initially asked of you ( because you have no answer ).

It's not very helpful when trying to discuss a topic (as you can see).

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by GoddyofOz on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 4:31pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 4:18pm:

You're merely avoiding questions initially asked of you ( because you have no answer ).

It's not very helpful when trying to discuss a topic (as you can see).

You're implying the question was answerable, when it isn't. Sadly, I do not own a crystal ball, and neither do you, because the Christians would execute you for witchcraft if you did.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Lisa on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 7:23pm

GoddyofOz wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 4:01pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 1:40pm:

GoddyofOz wrote on Dec 10^th, 2011 at 6:53pm:

And what if it doesn't?? What then??

What if it does? What then? See I can ask loaded questions as well.

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 4:18pm:

You're merely avoiding questions initially asked of you ( because you have no answer ).

It's not very helpful when trying to discuss a topic (as you can see).

GoddyofOz wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 4:31pm:

You're implying the question was answerable, when it isn't. Sadly, I do not own a crystal ball, and neither do you, because the Christians would execute you for witchcraft if you did.

Stop fibbing! Of course you have a crystal ball.

That's why YOU stated these words :

"It must end, and it will end." a few posts up.

Do you also have a convenient memory?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by GoddyofOz on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 7:53pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 7:23pm:

GoddyofOz wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 4:01pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 1:40pm:

GoddyofOz wrote on Dec 10^th, 2011 at 6:53pm:

And what if it doesn't?? What then??

What if it does? What then? See I can ask loaded questions as well.

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 4:18pm:

You're merely avoiding questions initially asked of you ( because you have no answer ).

It's not very helpful when trying to discuss a topic (as you can see).

GoddyofOz wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 4:31pm:

You're implying the question was answerable, when it isn't. Sadly, I do not own a crystal ball, and neither do you, because the Christians would execute you for witchcraft if you did.

Stop fibbing! Of course you have a crystal ball.

That's why YOU stated these words :

"It must end, and it will end." a few posts up.

Do you also have a convenient memory?

If I think it must end then if it must it eventually will. Learn some sophisticated English.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Lisa on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 8:27pm

GoddyofOz wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 7:53pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 7:23pm:

GoddyofOz wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 4:01pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 1:40pm:

GoddyofOz wrote on Dec 10^th, 2011 at 6:53pm:

And what if it doesn't?? What then??

What if it does? What then? See I can ask loaded questions as well.

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 4:18pm:

You're merely avoiding questions initially asked of you ( because you have no answer ).

It's not very helpful when trying to discuss a topic (as you can see).

GoddyofOz wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 4:31pm:

You're implying the question was answerable, when it isn't. Sadly, I do not own a crystal ball, and neither do you, because the Christians would execute you for witchcraft if you did.

Stop fibbing! Of course you have a crystal ball.

That's why YOU stated these words :

"It must end, and it will end." a few posts up.

Do you also have a convenient memory?

If I think it must end then if it must it eventually will. Learn some sophisticated English.

I trust the irony in your last post did not pass you by lol :)

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Sappho on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 9:28pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzgzim5m7oU

It's good see debate... but please remember the power of your words on others.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Dec 13^th, 2011 at 8:31am

Hang on, I missed something. Who has crystal balls?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Lisa on Dec 13^th, 2011 at 3:03pm

muso wrote on Dec 13^th, 2011 at 8:31am:

Hang on, I missed something. Who has crystal balls?

LMAO!

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Lisa on Dec 13^th, 2011 at 3:04pm

Sappho wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 9:28pm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzgzim5m7oU

It's good to see debate... but please remember the power of your words on others.

Interesting clip. I might bookmark that one actually.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by nairbe on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 1:14pm

I wonder what it is you actually ask. As an Atheist i don't actually recognise the word 'GOD'. It is over used, abused and in the end brings the automatic association of an entity to the great majority. Even worse to most it would be an all powerful male entity. If you are inferring that god 'IS' rather than GOD exists i will happily discuss the possibilities. Other than this the concept, idea or inference of GOD and creation are deeply embedded in fear and ignorance. Some things don't have an answer yet, others have answers but require you to do some heavy reading and listening. The are many books available on Quantum Physics that are readable for the simple folk like me, but just because you don't understand does not mean you have to run to a GOD to find meaning in existence. Many may even be frightened to discover that their life has no great meaning other than that which is relevant to themselves.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Amadd on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 5:20pm

Quote:

The are many books available on Quantum Physics that are readable for the simple folk like me, but just because you don't understand does not mean you have to run to a GOD to find meaning in existence. Many may even be frightened to discover that their life has no great meaning other than that which is relevant to themselves.

It may even be possible that your thoughts and actions have some bearing on what happens elsewhere, or in some other time.
In this case quantum physics, karma, belief in God, would all be relevent to each other and you would be more than just relevent to yourself.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 5:21pm

nairbe wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 1:14pm:

Turn it around make it sensible:

"The are many books available on God that are readable for the simple folk like me, but just because you don't understand does not mean you have to run toQuantum Physics to find meaning in existence. Many may even be frightened to discover that their life has great meaning other than that which is relevant to themselves."

Now it makes a great deal of sense since god is about relationhips between humans, which is numero uno on the list of what's important while subatomic structures are a poor 578 millionth.
Relationships are not simple. Running away from the difficulty is no solution.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by nairbe on Dec 25^th, 2011 at 5:30pm

Soren wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 5:21pm:

nairbe wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 1:14pm:

Quite fascinating the desperation to justify one’s self that we will invent God’s to give greater meaning and relevance to our existence. The simple pleasure in this expression of conscience is not hard to accept and enjoy. Why the need to expand its simplicity with God’s and self importance that have throughout history shown themselves to be nothing more than mechanisms to manipulate and control the conscience and behavior of the society that we live in.

We have built our god’s through time from humble beginnings of fear of the sun and weather to the pagan’s and the myriad of idols they had to justify and give meaning to their existence. Christianity is a relatively new idea and for the most part a contradiction of the Old Testament that it is born from. The all powerful god, the angry god that punished us with the great flood and the exodus of the Hebrew’s from Egypt and it’s many fascinating self serving stories such as the pesach that was nothing more than the manipulation of events ending in murder and assassination.

As science has developed and we have gained understanding as a species we remain resistant to the logic before us and all to often prefer to reject the logic in favor of fabulous fables and parables we fail to consistently interpret never mind don’t understand.

Why would the God’s of ancient Greece or Rome not be the true God’s, or the Egyptian God’s? How about the current Hindu faith and it’s range of God’s. The rejection of the God’s of others in justification of your own is ridiculous. The existence of your God is no more provable or deniable than theirs.

So Amadd you indulge in the hypotheses of possibilities that are offered for self-justification in your reference to physics. Your interpretations are of Science fiction. And Soren if feel sorry for one that has nothing more than the manipulation of another’s words to justify their own insecurity.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Dec 26^th, 2011 at 9:59am

Religion is not the only means of social control. Conversely, suggesting that social control is religion's only purpose is too silly to contemplete 9nevertheless, you seem to contemplate only that when the topic comes up.)

You seem to have a very self-contradictory way of thinking: "As an Atheist I don't actually recognise the word 'GOD'. " As an atheist you should be quite clear what god means because your stance of being 'a-godist' wouldn't make any sense if you didn't know what you are doing without.

You seem to think that historicims ('religion is just social contol which we now finally see) and solipsism (it's all about what you think, simple pleasures of coinsicence ) are enough. No so. You need to come up with something that engages with the meaning of religion and god.

Meaning. God's meaning is in the expression of human relations. To each other, to nature, to ancestors, to descendants. There is no doing away with the compulsion we all have to look for the memaning of these relations. The religious recognise certain shared frameworks of such meaning. Thre is variety of meanings, to be sure, but th ssential point is in the need to make sense an find meaning.

This maning has to be outside yourself (ie not solipsistic). As with art, meaning is nt a privte affair. It has to be shared. Once shard, it is a bond, a binding (the meaning of religio)

Atheism removes certain kind of meaning-making. Very well. But you must put something else in its place. To say that 'this is not the meaning of these relationhips' is not enough. You need to say what the maning then is. This is why my turning around your ords makes sense.

PS.
Apostrophy = it is a marker of absence. Do not use it when nothing is omitted.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by nairbe on Dec 26^th, 2011 at 1:13pm

Soren wrote on Dec 26^th, 2011 at 9:59am:

Religion is not the only means of social control. Conversely, suggesting that social control is religion's only purpose is too silly to contemplete 9nevertheless, you seem to contemplate only that when the topic comes up.)

You seem to have a very self-contradictory way of thinking: "As an Atheist I don't actually recognise the word 'GOD'. " As an atheist you should be quite clear what god means because your stance of being 'a-godist' wouldn't make any sense if you didn't know what you are doing without.

You seem to think that historicims ('religion is just social contol which we now finally see) and solipsism (it's all about what you think, simple pleasures of coinsicence ) are enough. No so. You need to come up with something that engages with the meaning of religion and god.

Meaning. God's meaning is in the expression of human relations. To each other, to nature, to ancestors, to descendants. There is no doing away with the compulsion we all have to look for the memaning of these relations. The religious recognise certain shared frameworks of such meaning. Thre is variety of meanings, to be sure, but th ssential point is in the need to make sense an find meaning.

This maning has to be outside yourself (ie not solipsistic). As with art, meaning is nt a privte affair. It has to be shared. Once shard, it is a bond, a binding (the meaning of religio)

Atheism removes certain kind of meaning-making. Very well. But you must put something else in its place. To say that 'this is not the meaning of these relationhips' is not enough. You need to say what the maning then is. This is why my turning around your ords makes sense.

PS.
Apotrophy = it is a marker of absence. Do not use it when nothing is omitted.

Funny you talk of contradictions. What ever would i want or need some odd ideals of a god that does not and has never existed, i cannot miss what is not and has never been. To me that is like pinning all my hopes that Santa clause will bring me a bright red Ferrari. Simply it ain't going to happen and it is really just a tool to get children to behave. That is the point of Atheism you don't have gods, believe in gods, need gods to give meaning to life or family. These things and many you have raise are answerable, do have meaning without a god and particularly religion. I have heard and considered all these ideas in life particularly from my minister parents when i was a child. Reason and some very sordid events caused me to loose faith in the church then over time simple logic resolved the stupidity of the god complex. I would pity those who are dependant on faith but in the end it is their own choice and it would be unforgivably patronising.

I am afraid that i don't see any other cause use or history of organised religion other than social and political control. The track record is there in all it's infamy and when you are not addicted and dependant on the god complex as your crutch in life the organised religion monster is exactly that. I am not pointing to christianity here, rather all religions and cult political ideals such as communism and fanatic rightism that was the Fascist. I applaud the secular democratic political system we have, it may not be perfect but on the whole it is ok. We have crappy times like what we have at the moment but it is not run by religious dogma or personality cults. You may well indicate that we have strong christian influence in our society and we do, but for me that is often out of place and holds the society back from its potential. There are other non christian democracies that have succeeded such as Israel and India. Each have their issues but so do we.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Dec 26^th, 2011 at 4:48pm

I do not think that the idea of god is exhausted by imagining an old man in the sky.
Not even those most antropomorphic gods, of the Greeks and Romans, were thought of as looking like humans. Depicting and representing and fabulation -these need a personification, allegorisation. But only children think these to be literally correct.

People look for meaning and find meaning. We cannot but interpret and that means finding meaning (even in ink blots). We cannot possible imagine a completly meaningless world and everything in that world, therefor, also being completely meaningless. We cannot conceive of all exitence being meaningless. But the meaning of anything is in elationhip to other beings. God is the collective verb (not a noun) for the an overarching meaning of all being.

As for social control, every kind of human relationship can be exploited and used for control, as every kind of meaning can be distorted. Distortion, self-promotion, taking advantage - selfish behaviour - is not unique to religion. But at least the best religions set a high standard.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by nairbe on Dec 26^th, 2011 at 5:14pm

AH, Yes here we are. You are using the Word GOD and then manipulating it through the language to mean and be whatever it is you want. This has become a most predictable habit and you wonder why i don't recognise the word. What you speak of when you say:

Soren wrote on Dec 26^th, 2011 at 4:48pm:

We cannot possible imagine a completely meaningless world and everything in that world, therefor, also being completely meaningless. We cannot conceive of all existence being meaningless. But the meaning of anything is in relationship to other beings."

I do not necessarily disagree with your words just feel great disappointment when you have to make a correlation to some non existant god to give what you have said meaning. You have said great things without needing the insecurity of a god to try and give it gravity.

Careful with the idea that only children interprete literally, remember they are the children of god and my experience is that most do interprete literally and quite fanatically though few have the fortitude to follow those feelings through to the end. Not for the sake of logic but the lack of courage. Never forget god does not belong just to christians and in particular the very moderate christianity that we know in this country.

Thank you this is the most objective and progressive discussion i have had on this site for a long time.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Dec 29^th, 2011 at 10:38am

A lot of religious people say that they 'experience' god. All of us have experienced moments of transcendence, where we have experienced the world selflessly. These experiences are real.

Love is a very similar experience (and Christians often go as far as declaring God to be love). Nobody is experiencing love constantly. But only very few people would say that it is a completely superfluous human experience. Lots of people manipulate others through charades of love, lots of cruelty an even murder is occasioned by love.

Christianity has unfolded to equate god with love, rather than with a horny thunderer (Zeus) or an oriental despot (Allah), or an oriental eternal recurrence of the same (Dalia lama), or assortments of cows, rainbow serpents, divine elephants and so forth.

In my view, this kind of Christian a metaphysics and understanding of the transcendental is the most sympathetic and fruitful kind of religion: it is universally open to all, it is positive, and certainly a great improvement not only a vengeful thunderer but also much better than its absence.

Dante could end his Commedia by saying that indeed Love (god) was so powerful an attrction and so desirable that this force of attraction was able to move even the stars.

Like a geometer, who sets himself to measure, in radii, the exact circumference of the circle, and who cannot find, by thought, the principle he lacks, so was I, at this new sight: I wished to see how the image fitted the circle, and how it was set in place, but my true wings had not been made for this, if it were not that my mind was struck by lightning, from which its will emerged.

Power, here, failed the deep imagining: but already my desire and will were rolled, like a wheel that is turned, equally, by the Love that moves the Sun and the other stars.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by perceptions_now on Dec 29^th, 2011 at 11:13am

Is that like asking, "HOW PREGNANT ARE YOU"?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Dec 29^th, 2011 at 11:20am

What is?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by perceptions_now on Dec 29^th, 2011 at 11:33am

perceptions_now wrote on Dec 29^th, 2011 at 11:13am:

Is that like asking, "HOW PREGNANT ARE YOU"?

Soren wrote on Dec 29^th, 2011 at 11:20am:

What is?

How Atheist Are You?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by nairbe on Dec 29^th, 2011 at 4:54pm

Soren wrote on Dec 29^th, 2011 at 10:38am:

A lot of religious people say that they 'experience' god. All of us have experienced moments of transcendence, where we have experienced the world selflessly. These experiences are real.

I remember clearly going to youth festivals when i was a child and feeling the spirit of the lord move among us, I can now look back on this and recognise that a group of highly over emotional and confused kids in one place where whipped up into a frenzy then told that this was the spirit of god. I now see this a manipulation and not by mistake. It was meant to entrap us into confessing our sins and repenting to the tune of what we had on us in cash.

Love is personal and seen differently by us all. To me it is not an emotion it is an achievement that is built up over time through trust, commitment and honesty. I love my children but i also love my step daughter just as much, there is no difference in my commitment or feelings in our relationship. So what is love other than yet another over used and abused term to justify ones behaviour.

Soren wrote on Dec 29^th, 2011 at 10:38am:

unfolded to equate god with love, rather than with a horny thunderer (Zeus) or an oriental despot (Allah), or an oriental eternal recurrence of the same (Dalia lama), or assortments of cows, rainbow serpents, divine elephants and so forth.

my view, this kind of Christian a metaphysics and understanding of the transcendental is the most sympathetic and fruitful kind of religion: it is universally open to all, it is positive, and certainly a great improvement not only a vengeful thunderer but also much better than its absence.

So how is it that this god can change so much without question or consistency unless god is just a convenient figment of the imagination.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Dec 29^th, 2011 at 6:12pm

If even love is just another overused term of self-justification then everything is pointless. Why bother with anything if it is all just self-justification? Absolute self-regard is sayable but not thinkable and certainly not livable.

The concept of god can change because it is a human concept. But as with love, also a human concept, it isn't 'just' a human concept that comes and goes, like measurements of lngth, volume or time. They both occupy centre stage when people make sense of their own lives, the life of others and the meaning of all things around them. Insofar as humans are able to conciv of concepts, space, time, causality, love and god are constant concepts, even if the way they re measured or reckoned changes.

They cannot be not measured and not reckoned.

Even atheism is a human concept about god, each type and interpretation of atheism dancing with its corresponding meaning and concept of god. Atheism makes sense only if -for some people -there is a god.
So even you, as an atheist, make sense of who you are and what the meaning of everything around you is by first conceiving of a god in some quite detailed way and then denying its existence. You could not deny god if you haven't, first, conceived of it in your on way. God and love are constant human concept. You depend on them for your atheism.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by nairbe on Dec 29^th, 2011 at 8:18pm

I understand your sense that without love as some kind of all powerful emotion then what is life. I have put the horse before the cart in so much that while you hold on to the need for there to be some over riding force or entity or whatever you like, that is guiding and giving goodness to the world you will not be able to progress in your understanding of human behaviour. It will always depend on some mystical power that justifies the outcome or we would all go mad and turn on each other.

Why do i love my children? is it the responsibility or the community expectation, is it the personal attachment and emotional investment that has been made? or are there more selfish motivations. Is it the reason for living they give ME, the sense of self importance, the control over another's life. You may say these are some cynical comments to make but why then do people behave as they do when a marriage breaks down or they loose a custody battle.

One of the base tenants of sociology is that we do what we do for selfish reasons. This does not have to be so horrible as it sounds. Why did mother Teresa give her life to the slums of Calcutta. Any chance that it made her feel good about herself and give her a sense of self worth. The payback is there in what we do.

So how is it you make some amazing connection between being an Atheist and that having to have some kind of organised ideal or recognition of the god complex. You seem to mis the meaning and the gravity of what that is. I do not conceive of god, know a god, recognise a god and consider the belief of a god to be the most ignorant and ridiculous idea i have ever heard. When you talk of love and the like as being of god i hear a very confuse and lost concept floating in a world of self justification. In my few years of existence i have seen the church sell out on it's core values to improve it's audience. This is the sort of thing that shows me how little value is in what they claim to represent. You say "The concept of God can change because it is a human concept" Well yes i agree it is a human concept and atheism is not a concept but just a word that is used to cover those who do not require the god delusion to justify their existence.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Dec 29^th, 2011 at 8:32pm

I am curious about how you justify your existence and what value you see in it.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Grey on Dec 29^th, 2011 at 10:47pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 25^th, 2011 at 5:32am:

Sappho wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 10:06pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 9:16pm:

So far all I can take from your position is that 'god' is a synonym for 'first cause' and nothing more.

If I agree with that I've got to shut up don't I? ;D

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by perceptions_now on Dec 29^th, 2011 at 11:10pm

Soren wrote on Dec 29^th, 2011 at 8:32pm:

I am curious about how you justify your existence and what value you see in it.

Surely, you do not suggest that the value of any human being & the justification of the existence of that human being being &/or the value & existence of humanity as a whole, is dependent on their or our recognition of any God or Gods?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Grey on Dec 29^th, 2011 at 11:52pm

I am curious about how you justify your existence and what value you see in it.

Do you have difficulty placing a value on things Soren?

What is the value of:
the unfurling frond?
a new born baby?
a forest waterfall?
a shooting star?

We live in the Universe, the one poem. Do you need a value for that? Do you need to fill the don't knows with false answers?

You poor bugger. :)

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Dec 30^th, 2011 at 8:40am

Grey wrote on Dec 29^th, 2011 at 11:52pm:

Unsurprisingly, you didn't ask me about the values of

betrayal
rejection
flees
lice
hostility
arson
rape
degradation

You just blurted out some sentimental crap and a couple of inane questions. As if these were an answer to anything. And a stupid smiley.

Same for the above post perceptions, about 'surely you don't suggest...?" A very inelegant sidestep.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Doctor Jolly on Dec 30^th, 2011 at 9:14am

Amadd wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 4:23pm:

Quote:

Why as Atheists or Theists would you not believe that this God exists?

Is this God a "conscious" entity which has the ability to intervene in occurrences such as: the weather, people's actions, earthquakes, etc?

If the god does not intervene, then there is no need to believe in him, pray, or any other worship. He aint going to do didly squat, as "his work is done". So the god proposed in the OP is really just a theory on how the world was built, much like any other scientific theory, and therefore nothing to do with religon.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by nairbe on Dec 30^th, 2011 at 10:47am

Soren wrote on Dec 30^th, 2011 at 8:40am:

Grey wrote on Dec 29^th, 2011 at 11:52pm:

The said question is complex Soren. I will take it that you suggest that all your values, standards and emotional feelings and reactions are divined "by the god"

So where does my sense of value in these things come from. Simply i have respect for life and what it is. When you are not betting on eternal life and the kingdom of heven you then have to question yourself as to the value of life. Is it just some cheap thing that does not matter? For me it is extremely precious as it is all i have in this manifestation of consciousness. Over many years as a youth i traveled and experienced and i now feel a deep respect for all thing living. Life is everywhere in all things at all times and i place the same value on the life of all forna and flora. I see the planet as a living organism that must be loves and nurtured.

So value is in the precious life i have to experience and for my children in the privilege of being able to facilitate the best opportunity for them to experience this consciousness. I respect all life for its right to exist and be free of the interference of others. I kill my own meat and understand the sacrifice of life that has been made for my continued existence. Nothing is for granted and nothing is so cheap as to be at the whim of some benevolent god.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Dec 30^th, 2011 at 4:31pm

You express strong religious sentiments. You may not believe in an ecclesia (church) but you most certinly seem to believe in a congregatio (a coming together), if only in service and worship of nature.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Amadd on Dec 30^th, 2011 at 5:28pm

Soren wrote on Dec 30^th, 2011 at 4:31pm:

That club is called the "Club of Humanity". It is open to all humans; religious and non-religious alike.
The difference seems to be within the way in which we pay tribute.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Dec 30^th, 2011 at 9:51pm

Amadd wrote on Dec 30^th, 2011 at 5:28pm:

Soren wrote on Dec 30^th, 2011 at 4:31pm:

That club is called the "Club of Humanity". It is open to all humans; religious and non-religious alike.
The difference seems to be within the way in which we pay tribute.

Deifying nature is not atheism or club of humanity. Investing nature with meaning that subsumes all humans and binds them together in something common, something shared, something meaningful beyond them individually and only in community with each other and nature is - religion.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Grey on Dec 30^th, 2011 at 11:02pm

Soren wrote on Dec 30^th, 2011 at 8:40am:

Grey wrote on Dec 29^th, 2011 at 11:52pm:

I would rather be the purveyor of sentimental crap Soren, than see value in rape.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Amadd on Dec 30^th, 2011 at 11:27pm

Frikin' Greeks ::)

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Jan 1^st, 2012 at 10:12pm

Amadd wrote on Dec 30^th, 2011 at 11:27pm:

Frikin' Greeks ::)

There is no need to bother about such men as these, whose name is legion, or to take notice of their fooleries. Neither need we try to convert men who define by generalizing and cannot make room for distinctions, just in order to have such fellows for our company in very subtle and delicate doctrines. Besides, with all the proofs in the world what would you expect to accomplish in the minds of people who are too stupid to recognize their own limitations?

Galileo (Italian), Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems (third day)

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Grey on Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 3:39am

Soren wrote on Jan 1^st, 2012 at 10:12pm:

Amadd wrote on Dec 30^th, 2011 at 11:27pm:

Frikin' Greeks ::)

Proof and irony are the two subjects you get a fail in Soren.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 5:19pm

Grey wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 3:39am:

Soren wrote on Jan 1^st, 2012 at 10:12pm:

Amadd wrote on Dec 30^th, 2011 at 11:27pm:

Frikin' Greeks ::)

Proof and irony are the two subjects you get a fail in Soren.

As Richard Dawkins said, there are no jokes in atheism.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Grey on Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 5:26pm

If I could supply a 100% proof that god did not exist, then he wouldn't exist.

If you could supply a 100% proof that god did exist, then he wouldn't exist.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 5:40pm

Grey wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 5:26pm:

If I could supply a 100% proof that god did not exist, then he wouldn't exist.

If you could supply a 100% proof that god did exist, then he wouldn't exist.

That's very self-revelatory of you. Brave, for somone with your limitation.

A+

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Dnarever on Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 6:08pm

I see no need to trash other people’s beliefs - either way.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by nairbe on Jan 3^rd, 2012 at 8:33pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 6:08pm:

I see no need to trash other people’s beliefs - either way.

That is a cowards statement. It may well be wise not to be harsh and judgemental about an others beliefs but the whole point in this thread is to chalenge and debate atheism and belief at the core. If you can not take some hard words you are maybe only showing how shallow your belief is.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Grey on Jan 3^rd, 2012 at 10:56pm

Soren wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 5:40pm:

Grey wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 5:26pm:

If I could supply a 100% proof that god did not exist, then he wouldn't exist.

If you could supply a 100% proof that god did exist, then he wouldn't exist.

That's very self-revelatory of you. Brave, for somone with your limitation.

A+

it is of course revelatory of god not me. God is built of faith. The moment god becomes a fact he dies.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Jan 3^rd, 2012 at 11:03pm

Grey wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2012 at 10:56pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 5:40pm:

Grey wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 5:26pm:

If I could supply a 100% proof that god did not exist, then he wouldn't exist.

If you could supply a 100% proof that god did exist, then he wouldn't exist.

That's very self-revelatory of you. Brave, for somone with your limitation.

A+

it is of course revelatory of god not me. God is built of faith. The moment god becomes a fact he dies.

Of course, uh-huh, of course...

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 11:30am

Soren wrote on Dec 30^th, 2011 at 9:51pm:

I always think that in the name of monotheism, Ashtoreth, the wife of Jehovah got a raw deal from the Judeo Christian religions. She represented the mother goddess, and had strong associations with nature and the Earth. She was frequently represented as a tree and worshipped by the Jews right up to the 6th Century BCE.

These religions deny the natural world, the flesh and any earthly matters, and cast her out as being the "Great Harlot" of Revelations along with any nurturing motherly aspects of religion .

From that time onwards any reference to the feminine divinity or traditional ceremonies in sacred groves celebrating nature have been denounced as witchcraft.

The worship of nature in itself is not necessarily atheistic, but it has long been anathema to the Abrahamists .

The God of nature is also the Deist God. (male by convention)

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 11:49am

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 11:30am:

Soren wrote on Dec 30^th, 2011 at 9:51pm:

I always think that in the name of monotheism, Ashtoreth, the wife of Jehovah got a raw deal from the Judeo Christian religions. She represented the mother goddess, and had strong associations with nature and the Earth. She was frequently represented as a tree and worshipped by the Jews right up to the 6th Century BCE.

These religions deny the natural world, the flesh and any earthly matters, and cast her out as being the "Great Harlot" of Revelations.

From that time onwards any reference to the feminine divinity or traditional ceremonies in sacred groves celebrating nature have been denounced as witchcraft.

The worship of nature in itself is not necessarily atheistic, but it has long been anathema to the Abrahamists .

The God of nature is also the Deist God. (male by convention)

I think this is so because nature, the fertility of land are recurrent, cyclical.

Monotheism is redemption-directed, eternal, unchanging teleological, linear.

The latter can and does subsume the former: the goal, redemption is the focus. Dante's final vision depicts it as the love towards which everything is drawn and around which all the stars move.
As the geometrician, who endeavours
To square the circle, and discovers not,
By taking thought, the principle he wants,
Even such was I at that new apparition;
I wished to see how the image to the circle
Conformed itself, and how it there finds place;
But my own wings were not enough for this,
Had it not been that then my mind there smote
A flash of lightning, wherein came its wish.
Here vigour failed the lofty fantasy:
But now was turning my desire and will,
Even as a wheel that equally is moved,
The Love which moves the sun and the other stars.

The curve is straightened, in some way, the circle is squared. This cycle is not a recurrent cycle of birth and death but of redemption and eternal (timeless, ie non-recurrent) bliss.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 2:35pm

Soren wrote on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 11:49am:

Monotheism is redemption-directed, eternal, unchanging teleological, linear.

If you added "A subset of" to that statement, then I might agree. The monotheism (monolatry) of the Old Testament was very far from being redemption-directed.

I think the real clash of ideologies is between 'cosmotheism' and monotheism, and that was behind the Christian backlash against Deism in the 17th and 18th centuries (or the beginning of the Age of Reason).

Deism is by definition a cosmotheism. The worship of the female divinity is cosmotheism by implication.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 3:08pm

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 2:35pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 11:49am:

Monotheism is redemption-directed, eternal, unchanging teleological, linear.

If you added "A subset of" to that statement, then I might agree. The monotheism (monolatry) of the Old Testament was very far from being redemption-directed.

An interesting novelty. Your own?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Grey on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 5:44pm

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 11:30am:

Soren wrote on Dec 30^th, 2011 at 9:51pm:

Interesting Muso. Not being familiar with Ashtoreth, I always thought it telling that monotheism came from the desert. When the environment is against you and survival a constant struggle, where to look but up? Up into the cool of the night, lit by a golden scimitar and where a 'heavenly host' guide the way. A night that waits to bring relief when the violence and struggle of mortal life is over.

The icons of the desert, the scimitar, the cross flames and incense.

Against the icons of more clement environments. The (pregnant) Earth mother, the sheaf of corn and above all the sacred grove, (the spirit is strong here, is it not obvious?). And of course it was inevitable, but not desirable, that the masculine religion would prevail against the feminine.

Now of course I'm not suggesting that European culture was all joyful hippies going off to Glastonbury. There were, I'm sure, always dominance games going on. Yet there are indications that the feminine side was always more in evidence. Women who were leaders not only happened but can be seen to be fairly common, and the major incursions came from the perimetre. The levant, the steppes and the ice.

Now you refer me back to a time when the mother was a part of Jewish theology. Could it be that the change in the theology coincided with the growth of the desert?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Jan 6^th, 2012 at 12:10am

Grey wrote on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 5:44pm:

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 11:30am:

Soren wrote on Dec 30^th, 2011 at 9:51pm:

Interesting only insofar as it demonstrates that you understand nothing, except silly preconceived, pre-packaged ideas. You should read and think for yourself more, you are supposed to be an anarchist. But truth be told, I have never come across an independent thought from you. It's all '70 righht-on nonsense.

Abraham was from Ur, a city on the Euphrates, near the Arabian Sea. In Mesopotamia/Babylon. You know...er... Fertile Crescent. He was called OUTA Ur to look for Canaan. He wandered through desert. But, alas, he was already a monotheist by then.
So monotheism didn't come from the desert. It came from the capital city of an empire.

Gilgamesh. Read it. Or at least read about it. Tells ya where Abraham and the Jews and monotheism came from. The cities of Babylon. The Cities of the Plain.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Grey on Jan 6^th, 2012 at 1:34am

Quote:

you understand nothing, except silly preconceived, pre-packaged ideas. You should read and think for yourself more, you are supposed to be an anarchist. But truth be told, I have never come across an independent thought from you. It's all '70 righht-on nonsense.

From the master of unintentional irony. The ease with which you pronounce cuniform mythology with add ons as absolute fact is a wonder in itself.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Amadd on Jan 6^th, 2012 at 4:21am

Insofar as athiests go, they are as relative to religion as haircolour is to baldness.

Can you comprehend it?
Do you really need any further explanation?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Jan 6^th, 2012 at 12:30pm

Grey wrote on Jan 6^th, 2012 at 1:34am:

Quote:

From the master of unintentional irony. The ease with which you pronounce cuniform mythology with add ons as absolute fact is a wonder in itself.

On the other hand, it's no wonder that you pronounce on things you know nothing about.

Anarchism, innit.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Grey on Jan 7^th, 2012 at 6:53pm

Ponce.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 8^th, 2012 at 2:40pm

Soren wrote on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 3:08pm:

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 2:35pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 11:49am:

Monotheism is redemption-directed, eternal, unchanging teleological, linear.

If you added "A subset of" to that statement, then I might agree. The monotheism (monolatry) of the Old Testament was very far from being redemption-directed.

An interesting novelty. Your own?

Redemption is mainly associated with Christianity, not monotheism.

Isn't that what the new "contract " was all about?

It's about the JC guy. Redeemer is his name, redemption is his game.

That what I meant by redemption. I don't know what you meant.

I mean back then you got struck down by lightning. There's no -"Oh sh1t I'm a heap of carbon now. How the heck am I going to be redeemed now?"

"Redemption? We don't do any of that stuff here. That's next door in the New Testament department"

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Jan 8^th, 2012 at 3:24pm

muso wrote on Jan 8^th, 2012 at 2:40pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 3:08pm:

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 2:35pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 11:49am:

Monotheism is redemption-directed, eternal, unchanging teleological, linear.

If you added "A subset of" to that statement, then I might agree. The monotheism (monolatry) of the Old Testament was very far from being redemption-directed.

An interesting novelty. Your own?

Not so. Redemption is heaven, paradise, nirvana, etc, achieved or granted because that's the kind of moral world the one god created. The jews don't go with the JC guy, but they do believe in redemption - just not by the JC guy.

In Ancient Greece, everyone went to Hades. Because tht's the ind of world that came to be whn the gods were doing their business. In polytheist eligions, humanity is not central to creation. In monotheism, it is. Why? because because a single god gets to hav a moral character as judge and sorts the sheep from the goats at the exit sign. The idea is that not all shall have prizes. That's a monotheistic idea. Polytheists can't have such an idea because their gods are many and conflicted, just like the people. They are in flux just like the mortals. They ay have honour, at best, but no redemption.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 9^th, 2012 at 12:08pm

Soren wrote on Jan 8^th, 2012 at 3:24pm:

In Ancient Greece, everyone went to Hades. Because tht's the ind of world that came to be whn the gods were doing their business. In polytheist eligions, humanity is not central to creation. In monotheism, it is. Why? because because a single god gets to hav a moral character as judge and sorts the sheep from the goats at the exit sign. The idea is that not all shall have prizes. That's a monotheistic idea. Polytheists can't have such an idea because their gods are many and conflicted, just like the people. They are in flux just like the mortals. They ay have honour, at best, but no redemption.

Haven't you heard of the Elysium Fields (Ἠλύσιον πεδίον)? It's that place located by the gentle stream, Okeanos. Didn't you watch Gladiator? The heroes and the virtuous went there. The rest went to Hades.

Polytheism can have that kind of redemption too. It's not an exclusive deal with monotheism.

You mentioned Nirvana or Nibbana. That comes from Buddhism which has no gods. A similar concept is found in some kinds of Hinduism.

Most religions have some kind of afterlife. That in itself is a form of redemption.

The Ancient Egyptian afterlife was a paradise too.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Jan 9^th, 2012 at 8:46pm

No matter how worthy they were, Greeks heroes didn't go to Olympos after death, ie into the presence of Zeus. SO elysium is more like the gentler circles of Hell in Dante rather than Heaven, or perhaps like Purgatory but without any hope of progressing to the Presence as that was unthinkable.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 10^th, 2012 at 11:03am

Soren wrote on Jan 9^th, 2012 at 8:46pm:

Aha - so you're moving the target. You're redefining "redemption" to signify cohabitation with the big G.

Well from what I read about him in the OT, I'd prefer my eschatology to be a bit less confronting, far from the divine gaze and divine halitosis as it were. Not sure if I'd really like to be reviewing the Sunday papers at breakfast time with that particular deity. The continual obsequious praising and harping would also be too much like Tartaros for my preference.

On the other hand, Elysium was a pretty decent place to be sent after casting off the old mortal coil and giving the old metal container a big wallop with your right foot.

This is what Hesiod had to say:

Quote:

And they live untouched by sorrow in the islands of the blessed along the shore of deep-swirling Ocean, happy heroes for whom the grain-giving earth bears honey-sweet fruit flourishing thrice a year, far from the deathless gods, and Cronos rules over them

Sounds like a fairly normal definition of redemption to me. You've been reading too much Christian propaganda.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 10^th, 2012 at 11:06am

Post deleted

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Jan 17^th, 2012 at 2:59pm

In 2009, the editor and the Washington correspondent of the Economist, John Micklethwait and Adrian Wooldridge, published a book, God is Back — an extraordinary title to come from the staff of that magazine. In 2000 the Harvard sociologist Robert Putnam published a book called Bowling Alone, in which he developed his famous thesis that more Americans than ever are going ten-pin bowling but fewer than ever are joining ten-pin bowling clubs or leagues. In other words, they're bowling alone. Putnam used this as his symbol for the loss of community in America, the loss of what American economists and sociologists call "social capital". So in 2000 he was arguing that there's no social capital left in America.

Ten years later, he published a book called American Grace, in which he documents his discovery that social capital is alive and well in America, in one place more than any other: in houses of worship. From four years of research, Putnam discovered that if you are a regular church or synagogue attendee, you are more likely to give money to charity than if you're not a regular, regardless of whether the charity is religious or secular. You are also more likely to do voluntary work for a charity, give money to a homeless person, give excess change back to a shop assistant, donate blood, help a neighbour with their shopping, help someone with their housework, spend time with someone who is depressed, allow another driver to cut in front of you, offer a seat to a stranger or help someone find a job. There is no good deed among all of those on the survey that is more practised by secular Americans than by their religious counterparts.

It goes further than this: frequent worshippers are also more active citizens — they are more likely to belong to community organisations, especially those concerned with young people, or health or arts or leisure. They are more likely to join neighbourhood or civic groups, professional and fraternal associations. Within these groups they are more likely to be officers or committee members. They take a more active part in local civic life, from local elections to town meetings to demonstrations. They are disproportionately represented among local activists for social and political reform. They turn up, they get involved, they lead. And the margin of difference between them and secular Americans is large.

Religiosity turns out to be the best indicator of civic involvement: it's more accurate than education, age, income, gender or race. Incidentally, religious regular synagogue or church goers are more likely to report themselves as being happier and they also live longer. Putnam's book demonstrates that not only has religion not died, but that it is a fundamental and primary source of community and altruism. Furthermore, Putnam says that research in Britain — which is not yet published — confirms the same thing.
http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/print/4264

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Grey on Jan 17^th, 2012 at 3:33pm

Soren wrote on Jan 17^th, 2012 at 2:59pm:

Putnam discovered that if you are a regular church or synagogue attendee, you are more likely to give money to charity than if you're not a regular, regardless of whether the charity is religious or secular. You are also more likely to do voluntary work for a charity, give money to a homeless person, give excess change back to a shop assistant, donate blood, help a neighbour with their shopping, help someone with their housework, spend time with someone who is depressed, allow another driver to cut in front of you, offer a seat to a stranger or help someone find a job. There is no good deed among all of those on the survey that is more practised by secular Americans than by their religious counterparts.

That's as may be, but if you do those things without being religious, you do them because you recognise in yourself that it is right, not out of fear of god or as an investment in an afterlife. Further than that the survey is flawed in that it focuses on two minoritiies, (fervent Christians and Jews) and compares results on a per capita basis with the general population. I wonder what result you would get if you isolated other minority groups from the general population applying the same evaluation technique, (whatever that is)?

For instance how would Sikhs do, or Muslims, English, Anarchists? What was the evaluation technique? Obviously not objective observation of unknowing subjects; so probably a questionaire. How were the questions framed and in what order? I mean to say, if you've established a claim to fervent Christianity, the subject has a vested interest in answering according to what they know they should do. An imperative missing from those who make no such claim.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Jan 17^th, 2012 at 5:27pm

More recently, the Scottish historian Niall Ferguson says something remarkable towards the end of his book Civilisation: The West and the Rest. He recounts how the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences was tasked with the question of finding out how the West overtook China. Until about 1500, China was in advance of the West in virtually every aspect of technology: printing, ceramics, weaving, water-mills, and so on. But in the 1500s the West overtook China and stayed in advance of China until recently. So the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences was told to find out what it was about the West that gave it its unique advantage, and the Chinese scholars undertaking this investigation reported as follows:

At first we thought it was your guns, you had better and bigger guns than we had. Then we did some more study and we discovered no, it was your political system, it was democracy that gave you the better guns. Then we did a bit more research and we realised that it was your market, your economic system that gave you democracy that gave you the better guns. Except for the last 20 years we have realised it was your religion.

That was the discovery of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences.
http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/print/4264

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by NorthOfNorth on Jan 17^th, 2012 at 8:49pm

While no one agrees on a specific cause for Chinese stagnation since the 17th century, the great Joseph Needham (the Needham question - Why was China overtaken by the west?) suggested this :

"Needham's Grand Question", also known as "The Needham Question", is why China had been overtaken by the West in science and technology, despite its earlier successes. His works attribute significant weight to the impact of Confucianism and Taoism on the pace of Chinese scientific discovery, and emphasizes what it describes as the "diffusionist" approach of Chinese science as opposed to a perceived independent inventiveness in the western world. Needham held that the notion that the Chinese script had inhibited scientific thought was "grossly overrated".

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Grey on Jan 17^th, 2012 at 10:54pm

Soren wrote on Jan 17^th, 2012 at 5:27pm:

More recently, the Scottish historian says something remarkable towards the end of his book Civilisation: The West and the Rest. He recounts how the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences was tasked with the question of finding out how the West overtook China. Until about 1500, China was in advance of the West in virtually every aspect of technology: printing, ceramics, weaving, water-mills, and so on. But in the 1500s the West overtook China and stayed in advance of China until recently. So the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences was told to find out what it was about the West that gave it its unique advantage, and the Chinese scholars undertaking this investigation reported as follows:

At first we thought it was your guns, you had better and bigger guns than we had. Then we did some more study and we discovered no, it was your political system, it was democracy that gave you the better guns. Then we did a bit more research and we realised that it was your market, your economic system that gave you democracy that gave you the better guns. Except for the last 20 years we have realised it was your religion.

That was the discovery of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences.
http://www.standpointmag.co.uk/print/4264

You think Niall Ferguson was being serious there do you?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Jan 18^th, 2012 at 8:19am

Grey wrote on Jan 17^th, 2012 at 10:54pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 17^th, 2012 at 5:27pm:

You think Niall Ferguson was being serious there do you?

I do. I have read his book.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Grey on Jan 18^th, 2012 at 7:53pm

Soren wrote on Jan 18^th, 2012 at 8:19am:

Grey wrote on Jan 17^th, 2012 at 10:54pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 17^th, 2012 at 5:27pm:

You think Niall Ferguson was being serious there do you?

I do. I have read his book.

They have plenty of religion in Italy, yet still Rome fell and is having a lot of difficulty standing up again. I haven't read that book but have read 'The ascent of money'. That's enough to know Fergie has his tounge in his cheek from time to time. Any suggestion that the Wests religion brought down China or that religion has turned it back into a powerhouse is utterly absurd.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Jan 18^th, 2012 at 8:30pm

Grey wrote on Jan 18^th, 2012 at 7:53pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 18^th, 2012 at 8:19am:

Grey wrote on Jan 17^th, 2012 at 10:54pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 17^th, 2012 at 5:27pm:

You think Niall Ferguson was being serious there do you?

I do. I have read his book.

Mebbe in your mind 'overtake' means 'bring down', but let me assure you, it is the case only in your mind.

I know, I know, anarchists, no authority, we don't need no fascist governments and all that baloney - but language is not a goddam government plot to subjugate upstanding anarchists seniors. Ask anybody.
So don't make up the meaning of thing as you go along, even if you are an anarchist (*snigger*).

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 18^th, 2012 at 8:59pm

I think it's just a small "a" anarchist. They just want less government. I doubt if he actually blows stuff up.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Grey on Jan 18^th, 2012 at 11:11pm

muso wrote on Jan 18^th, 2012 at 8:59pm:

I think it's just a small "a" anarchist. They just want less government. I doubt if he actually blows stuff up.

For crying out loud. Does this letter sound like it's been written by somebody who wants to 'blow stuff up'.

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archives/proudhon/letters/proudhontomarx.html

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 22^nd, 2012 at 10:33am

Grey wrote on Jan 18^th, 2012 at 11:11pm:

muso wrote on Jan 18^th, 2012 at 8:59pm:

I think it's just a small "a" anarchist. They just want less government. I doubt if he actually blows stuff up.

For crying out loud. Does this letter sound like it's been written by somebody who wants to 'blow stuff up'.

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archives/proudhon/letters/proudhontomarx.html

My remark was intended to be tongue in cheek. :P

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Jan 22^nd, 2012 at 10:40am

muso wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2012 at 10:33am:

Grey wrote on Jan 18^th, 2012 at 11:11pm:

muso wrote on Jan 18^th, 2012 at 8:59pm:

I think it's just a small "a" anarchist. They just want less government. I doubt if he actually blows stuff up.

For crying out loud. Does this letter sound like it's been written by somebody who wants to 'blow stuff up'.

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archives/proudhon/letters/proudhontomarx.html

My remark was intended to be tongue in cheek. :P

tongue in cheek is the only way to speak about anarchists

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Grey on Jan 22^nd, 2012 at 3:57pm

Urrrgh, stepped in some Soren again.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 23^rd, 2012 at 1:24pm

Anyway, I was just going by commonly held dictionary definitions. How about if you describe how your brand of anarchism differs from that:

an·ar·chist
[an-er-kist] Show IPA
noun
1. a person who advocates or believes in anarchy or anarchism.

2. a person who seeks to overturn by violence all constituted forms and institutions of society and government, with no purpose of establishing any other system of order in the place of that destroyed.

3. a person who promotes disorder or excites revolt against any established rule, law, or custom.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by BETEARS on Jan 25^th, 2012 at 3:45pm

What a smacking stupid question. "How atheist are you"? You are either atheist or you are not.

I am atheist and there is no God. End of fantasy.

The fact you ask such a stuoid question says blatantly "I don't know what atheism is" You see, there is NO belief or belief system required. An atheist simply KNOWS there is no God.

Usually through a personal quest. Mine was looking positively for a God I needed many moons ago. I ended up turning to the Bible as humans could not give an answer other than "You just have to believe".

Well, no, I don't. I believe things which are true and of which there is evidence.

Now given there has never been even a shred of evidence of a God since the dawn of time I am not waiting. I have decided, it's a fiction and, having read the Bible and researched it, I also know where and when and who created religion.

I know too who wrote the Bible, the first time. Do you?

You want to debate this, stand on up and I'll shred you in a few posts as you will NOT have answers tio my questions. I will also prove you have NOT read the Bible nor understood it.

How atheist are you? buggered in the head question. How pregnant are you? Oh, just a little bit.

The challenge is there, won't take long.

In fact I'll give you a head start. Is the Beast, the devil, whatever you call it real. Did it ever exist and what was it or is it. You don't know this do you. It prov4es there is no hell, just the mind of man putting ourselves through hell. I've done that too. It's called depression, deep depression. That's hell.

You want another head start. Tell me what you make of Jesus's time alone in the desert, fighting demons. What happened there etc?

I look forward to no response from you moron.

There never was and never will be a God. Someone once said it in a roundabout way. They said "If God didn't exist then man would create him". Well, he didn't so man did create him. When, where and why? Surely you have these answers.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by BETEARS on Jan 26^th, 2012 at 1:10pm

SIlence reigns. What a shock, NOT. Damned God freaks, no belief in themselves or their fictitious "God".

WHat did we expect? A serious challenge and they go to water.

Anyone got the guts or belief to take up my challenge.

Answer - NO WAY, WE MIGHT LOSE.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 26^th, 2012 at 4:43pm

BETEARS wrote on Jan 25^th, 2012 at 3:45pm:

An atheist simply KNOWS there is no God.

I've got one. I bought it from a stall in Africa. I therefore know there is a god.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Jan 26^th, 2012 at 5:01pm

BETEARS wrote on Jan 25^th, 2012 at 3:45pm:

Why knock this creation of man? A bit arrogant and stupid. You are frothing too much and people are not responding because they are polite.

Hamlet and Lear are not 'real' just as your great-great-great-great grandfather isn't, yet they are meaningful. The Law is not real, except in the way it is enacted. Same with love and hate and sorrow and the rest of it.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by BETEARS on Jan 26^th, 2012 at 8:47pm

Muse, you've been breathing too much sulphur dioxode mate. You confuse Gods with gits.

Oh, I get it. I'm dealing with a complete idiot. Someone who has NO convictions. Don't mistake facts for frothing, dick.

Just say you have no idea at all and make it all up as you go along. For that's what you do isn't it?

Add coward to the list of titles you enjoy.

"How atheist are you?" That tells me your IQ is not above double figures else you'd know it's a yes or no thing.

The reference to my great,..... grandfather is sheer crap. Of he was was ansd still is real. I know where he's buried.

Hamlet et al are not real as you say. They are stories, just like the Bible. They are not "meaningful", it is just some guys idea of morals conveyed in a poetic story line.

Meaningful. Are you the damned black spot by any chance. Then OUT.

SHow some guts, try and answer. Was there a Beast, devil etc. Is God the perfect Creator. Surely you have SOME answers.

Why "knock" this creation of man"? Who mentioned the creation of man, I didn't so it must be you. Do expand and tell us how mankind was created. Oh please enlighten us.

And don't dare mention evolution or any time before 6000 years ago will you.

You are a bloody Creationist. Correct?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by BETEARS on Jan 26^th, 2012 at 8:49pm

Or just tell us all ONE thing. Have you read the Bible. Yes or no.?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Jan 26^th, 2012 at 8:54pm

BETEARS wrote on Jan 26^th, 2012 at 8:49pm:

Or just tell us all ONE thing. Have you read the Bible. Yes or no.?

Yes.

Are you an angry, incoherent frother? Yes or no?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by BETEARS on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 7:35am

So you have read the Bible have you? Then tell me what the time Jesus spent alone in the desert was all about?

Tell me if you believe God was the perfect Creator. SImple, easy questions. Try them.

I'll ignore your tripe as it has nothing to do with anything, I am never incoherent.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Grey on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 9:57am

Quote:

Hamlet and Lear are not 'real' just as your great-great-great-great grandfather isn't, yet they are meaningful. The Law is not real, except in the way it is enacted. Same with love and hate and sorrow and the rest of it.

Interesting perspective but devoid of reason. Love, hate and sorrow are not abstracts, they're real human emotions. Law is abstract, often an ass, but arguably useful on balance; the same can said for Father Christmas. The only use gods have is for those wishing to divide and conquer.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by BETEARS on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 10:28am

Well said Grey,

This person has no faith in his professed beliefs and avoids every issue that will prove him a liar.

Says he has read the Bible. Hmm, I've yet to meet anyone who really has read the entire Bible so questions I pose him will send him looking for answers which he won't find as it needs to be read in it's entirety.

Correct stsatement re the use of the God concept. It's just a political tool, as is the author of this thread, without the political. Just a tool.

Still your turn Richard, the Third of course. But all was
silent. Seemsd this person denies Jesus more than thrice.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 1:43pm

Betears - tell me, are you an ex-Evangelical or something? They make the craziest atheists. Ex-Mormons are stir-crazy too.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 1:48pm

Put em up- put em up. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4trn2lJxl00

You assume way too much, but you are amusing enough, so far.

So what you are saying is that regardless of definition, you know for a fact that no Gods exist. Atheist is not a word I use to describe myself, because I don't think it's very useful.

I sometimes refer to myself as an atheistic theist. I believe that if a bunch of people believe in something enough, the effect will be something similar to tangible existence.

An example of this is money. If you live in a cave, don't spend money and if somebody gives you some plastic/ paper currency, you might think that it would be useful as tinder. (You want me to give you my goat for a handful of leaves? What kind of idiot are you?) Something to get the wood burning perhaps? However, if you are like most of us, you believe in money and participate in the financial scene to some extent. You are a religious person. Do you disagree? What is your definition of religious? Maybe it's different from mine. What is your definition of god? How does it differ from other people's definition. What makes my definition of god (social phenomenon) worse than yours? Who gets to choose?

What I'm getting at is that without a universal definition of god, you'll find it difficult to come up with a universal definition of atheist.

A god is an imaginary thing that some people worship. My wooden god is called a god by some people, and they worship it.

Look, you seem to be going on about the Bible a hell of a lot. Are you a fundamentalist or something? - or just an anti-Christian?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 1:53pm

Soren wrote on Jan 26^th, 2012 at 8:54pm:

BETEARS wrote on Jan 26^th, 2012 at 8:49pm:

Or just tell us all ONE thing. Have you read the Bible. Yes or no.?

Yes.

Are you an angry, incoherent frother? Yes or no?

That would be a yes. ;D

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Yadda on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 3:24pm

BETEARS wrote on Jan 25^th, 2012 at 3:45pm:

Oh BETEARS,

Oh omniscient one,

Mankind does not know [even] the extent of our universe.

But you have effectively said that you, yourself, are omniscient.
....because you looked for God, and you did not find him.

ERGO, you know that God does not exist.

Dictionary;
omniscient = = in possession of all knowledge.

BETEARS,
So you are claiming to be omniscient ? ["I am atheist and there is no God."]

I don't believe you,
....because i don't have any evidence that you are omniscient.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by BETEARS on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 4:25pm

Avoided again. Loser, fake and false claims. Cannot back up his own little story.

The Om word is not one I claimed at all. You bestowed it on me, falsely as usual. You do notice the Om reference and it's importance don't you?

Your logic is non existant. You take one statement and extrapolate it into something completely irrelevant. Something twisted away in your pointy little head. If you think knowing there is no God gives one that power then be very afraid as there are a lot of us.

I know there is no God and so do millions and millions of atheists. You know how? There is and has never been even a shred of proof of such a being. Prayers are never answered except by coincidence.

Get some proof and then return, else, go forth and multiply, preferably with yourself.

Challenge : Write a prayer here, meaningful and let's see if it's answered.

Can't do, can you as it will not be answered.

If I do become all knowing I'll let you know. Until then I'm not. I just know the fact. No God, now, past or future. No proof, no God.

Your continued evasion and derision is typical of people with low IQ's. Make claims, avoid it when they are challenged and attack the person challenging them. No guts, just cowards.

Frankly you belong in a home for those without sufficient ways of supporting themselves, believing in that crap.

Still afraid to test your Bible knowledge little man? Obviously you are.

Let's make it even easier then. How far into the Bible does it become obvious it's a fraud, a story book for minds of 2000 years ago and not minds of today.

Cain't get simpler than that but let's help you. There are at least two such statements in the first couple of pages of Genesis. So you only have to read 2 pages to answer. Reading them for the first time too aren't you? Find the flaws. Where is Wally?

A round of laughter for this dickhead. Can't live without the crutch of thinking someone else will look after you. Poor baby, still looking for Mummy. For that's what a belief in God truly is "I want my Mommy!!!" Sniff, sniff.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 5:13pm

Betears, Technically, you could call me an atheist, but you certainly don't speak for me. It's your logic that's out the window here.

I'd suggest that you're in a very small minority among Atheists when you say that you know God does not exist. That's why I'm suspicious.

Yadda - you're wasting your time. This guy has more faith than you. ;D

- and if he keeps up the personal insults, I think he'll be getting a holiday soon.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 5:15pm

Grey wrote on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 9:57am:

Quote:

God is a verb, love, hate, hope, forgivness, sorrow are verbs - they exist only in a relation between beings = they are transitive verbs.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 5:21pm

BETEARS wrote on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 10:28am:

Well, if it's all political, then your frothing is also political. What is your control agenda?

Jesus's 40 days in the desert - he was looking for a plumber.
God the perfect creator - I wouldn't call you if I wanted a platypus. God has a sense of humour. You don't.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 6:59pm

Soren wrote on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 5:15pm:

Grey wrote on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 9:57am:

Quote:

God is a verb, love, hate, hope, forgivness, sorrow are verbs - they exist only in a relation between beings = they are transitive verbs.

- and you know that for sure?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 7:05pm

muso wrote on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 6:59pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 5:15pm:

Grey wrote on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 9:57am:

Quote:

God is a verb, love, hate, hope, forgivness, sorrow are verbs - they exist only in a relation between beings = they are transitive verbs.

- and you know that for sure?

Yeah. Don't you?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 8:50pm

So you preclude the existence of God outside that context?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 10:06pm

muso wrote on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 8:50pm:

So you preclude the existence of God outside that context?

I didn't realise there was another context.
You are privy to it? Tell all.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by BETEARS on Jan 28^th, 2012 at 8:19am

Pathetic Soren, absolutely irrelevant and pathetic. Unable to even read 2 pages of your Bible. Must be illiterate.

Too afraid to test his so called faith. Just a gutless coward.

As Bill Hicks said often "You're proving my point."? There is NO God.

Try and tell me how many siblings Jesus had, and their ages. Bible avoids mentioning them for obvious reasons. ACtually he did have at least one older sibling so Joseph must have been very understand to go for the Virgin crap.

Why is Jesus called Jesus of Nazareth when he was supposedly born in Bethlehem?

Why were his parents in Bethlehem at all. There supposedly was a census requiring they be there but there is no record in history of such a census. All bullshit.

Where was Jesus between age zero and 32? What did he do all that time? Not mentioned at all. A fiction.

How did a star in the sky guide "wise men" to this child". To be accurate the star must have been attached to the barn roof else it could have been indicating anywhere.

You'd swallow anything Soren, and I bet you do.

Muso,

You? Technically an atheist? On what basis do you make that claim. If you do not know there is no God you cannot be atheist. At best you would be agnostic, room for God or no God. In other words you don't know so atheism is beyond you.

There are many who claim to be atheist who cannot rule God out. You seem to be one such, therefore just posing as an atheist. You either are or yu aren't. Tell me, what evidence is there of a God. Only go back as far as the dawn of time and highlight anything that shows a shred of proof of this being.

Don't you see how simple this actually is? No evidence, no proof, no God. If someone produces such I'll change my views. Until then..... there is no God. What on earth are you "suspicious" about? Have I personally been hiding any such evidence since the dawn of time. Yes, got a room full of it. And I'm 40 million years old too.

Your comment is not logical and brands yourself as agnostic, not atheist as you do not KNOW. That's the bvery definition of atheism. KNOWING there is no God.

I speak for no one but me. I made that very clear early on. You have just spoken for yourself and make it clear you are NOT atheist at all. Just another fake.

I am here to ask Soren to back up his bullshit and he can't. Failed every single challenge and is too scared to even try.

Soren wrote "I didn't realise there was another context."

An admission of fact. He sees only one thing, from one perspective. No thought required.

Let's make it even simpler Soren et all.

The very first line of Genesis gives it away. "In the beginning". Beginning of what? And if it was the beginning how is it God was already there? Presuppposes he came from elsewhere to be "At the beginning". Therefore it could not be the beginning of anything. The photo of the Big Bang, Google it) tells you where Earth came from.

Just bullshit but fine words for Moody Blues songs.

Soren. Put up or shut up,. You are a complete idiot with no convictions at all. You are just another noisy little troll with nothing to say. TROLL.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 28^th, 2012 at 9:01am

Soren wrote on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 10:06pm:

muso wrote on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 8:50pm:

So you preclude the existence of God outside that context?

I didn't realise there was another context.
You are privy to it? Tell all.

I mean the cosmological context. Creation of the universe and all that. The "relationship between beings" is too narrow, except for my "sociological" god.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 28^th, 2012 at 9:16am

BETEARS wrote on Jan 28^th, 2012 at 8:19am:

Muso,

You? Technically an atheist? On what basis do you make that claim. If you do not know there is no God you cannot be atheist. At best you would be agnostic, room for God or no God. In other words you don't know so atheism is beyond you.

There are many who claim to be atheist who cannot rule God out. You seem to be one such, therefore just posing as an atheist. You either are or yu aren't. Tell me, what evidence is there of a God. Only go back as far as the dawn of time and highlight anything that shows a shred of proof of this being.

Don't you see how simple this actually is? No evidence, no proof, no God. If someone produces such I'll change my views.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Jan 28^th, 2012 at 9:33am

muso wrote on Jan 28^th, 2012 at 9:01am:

Soren wrote on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 10:06pm:

muso wrote on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 8:50pm:

So you preclude the existence of God outside that context?

I didn't realise there was another context.
You are privy to it? Tell all.

I mean the cosmological context. Creation of the universe and all that. The "relationship between beings" is too narrow, except for my "sociological" god.

What do you kow about the universe outside the human context?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 28^th, 2012 at 5:25pm

Soren wrote on Jan 28^th, 2012 at 9:33am:

muso wrote on Jan 28^th, 2012 at 9:01am:

Soren wrote on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 10:06pm:

muso wrote on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 8:50pm:

So you preclude the existence of God outside that context?

I didn't realise there was another context.
You are privy to it? Tell all.

I mean the cosmological context. Creation of the universe and all that. The "relationship between beings" is too narrow, except for my "sociological" god.

What do you kow about the universe outside the human context?

First principle stuff? Come on - you were going on about it ad nauseum last year and I didn't necessarily disagree with you.

You could very well ask, what do you know about God?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 28^th, 2012 at 5:34pm

BETEARS wrote on Jan 28^th, 2012 at 8:19am:

Your comment is not logical and brands yourself as agnostic, not atheist as you do not KNOW. That's the very definition of atheism. KNOWING there is no God.

No it isn't. Here is the Australian Atheist Foundation's definition:

Quote:

ATHEISM

is the acceptance that there is no credible scientific or factually reliable evidence for the existence of a god, gods or the supernatural.

Actually that's crap too. It's too narrow. A person could have lived in a primitive society where they have no science, philosophy or concept of gods. They are still atheists regardless of the fact that the don't make the above acceptance.
Here is the American Atheist's definition:

Quote:

Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity...

http://www.atheists.org/

Quote:

you don't believe in gods

There are many others, but basically you are full of sh!t. You are really an evangelist trying to make a point aren't you? You're not a real atheist - go on - admit it.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Jan 28^th, 2012 at 9:18pm

muso wrote on Jan 28^th, 2012 at 5:25pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 28^th, 2012 at 9:33am:

muso wrote on Jan 28^th, 2012 at 9:01am:

Soren wrote on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 10:06pm:

muso wrote on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 8:50pm:

So you preclude the existence of God outside that context?

I didn't realise there was another context.
You are privy to it? Tell all.

I mean the cosmological context. Creation of the universe and all that. The "relationship between beings" is too narrow, except for my "sociological" god.

What do you kow about the universe outside the human context?

First principle stuff? Come on - you were going on about it ad nauseum last year and I didn't necessarily disagree with you.

You could very well ask, what do you know about God?

Not first principle stuff.

(I don't remember going on about first principles last year or the year before.)

I know about God what has been articulated in the words and actions of generations of people before me. I don't dismiss them, just because they are dead. I will not dismiss 4000 years of life, literature, art, theology, comedy and tragedy for the hubris of the last 50 or so.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 28^th, 2012 at 9:52pm

First cause then? The philosophical case for "god"

Soren wrote on Jan 28^th, 2012 at 9:18pm:

I know about God what has been articulated in the words and actions of generations of people before me. I don't dismiss them, just because they are dead. I will not dismiss 4000 years of life, literature, art, theology, comedy and tragedy for the hubris of the last 50 or so.

ok. Dis Manibus - I understand.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Yadda on Jan 28^th, 2012 at 11:27pm

BETEARS wrote on Jan 27^th, 2012 at 4:25pm:

BETEARS,

Oh majestic and wise one.

You have searched, and searched, and found no ['worldly'] evidence of God,
ergo, God does not exist. [.....you say.]

BETEARS,

As a wise man on the OzPol forum once said....

Quote:

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

Yes muso, yes muso, it was you. ;)

BETEARS,

500 years ago, we didn't have machines that could detect radio waves.

But, radio waves still existed, even 500 years ago.

n.b.
Naturally occurring radio waves have always existed, ....well as long as the universe has, anyway.

Today, we humans still cannot see 'invisible' radio waves.

But today, a human being of average intelligence, would never dream of claiming that radio waves do not exist.

Yadda om's, and om's, in the lounge room and yes, Yadda can follow the logic of the blind man, who declares;

"I can not see the stars in the night sky. Therefore for me, the stars in the night sky do not exist."

OR,

"I can not see the colours in a flower. Therefore for me, the beauty in the colour of flowers do not exist."

Of course, stars in the night sky, and the beauty of colours in flowers, do NOT exist, for a blind man.

+++

Hey BETEARS,

I have evidence of God's existence,
ergo, i know that God exists.

Two different people, searching, searching.

CONCLUSION;
Different experience = = a different perception.

Hey BETEARS,

I, and people like myself, have a different perception from people like yourself.

Why is that ?

Matthew 13:10
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Yadda said,
'people like myself';
search for the name >> Yasmin << [in this article].
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article510589.ece

+++

You want to know what proof i have, that God exists ???

None.

>> I << have proof that God exists.

But i have no proof to present to you.

But do you want to know why you can't see God ???

It is coz you [like all carnal men] are 'looking' for God in all of the wrong places.

John 4:24
God is a Spirit....

Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

"All we have to decide, is what to do with the time that is given to us."
Gandalf - FOTR

Matthew 6:33
.....seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness;...

"For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence."

Indifference to injustice is the gateway to hell.

+++

BETEARS,

If you [an atheist] were to step outside on a sunny cloudless day, though you cannot see them [but because you have the 'comprehension' that stars surround the earth], you would never dream of suggesting that there are no stars in the sky above your head.

Yet you [an atheist], do not have the humility to imagine that reality, is NOT bounded by the limits of your own senses and comprehension.

And in my experience, atheists are people who hate truth.

They have an absolute aversion to it!

Q.
What reasoning, do i apply in that statement?

A.
The possibility of (a) truth which does not comply with, and is not bounded within, their own comprehension, is offensive and unthinkable to atheists. [...mostly because the have a 'gaining' in mind, in rejecting truth.]i
But hey BETEARS, go your own way.

Walk your path, oh wise man #2.

Have a nice life.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 29^th, 2012 at 8:46am

Yadda wrote on Jan 28^th, 2012 at 11:27pm:

But hey BETEARS, go your own way.

Walk your path, oh wise man #2.

Have a nice life.

You are allowed to enjoy the view from your personal mountain top without being shouted down and ridiculed by militant atheists. I don't have the same view, but hey, I might have a few trees in the way..... and so might you. ;D

So, do you think God is just a transitive verb?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Yadda on Jan 29^th, 2012 at 11:02am

BETEARS wrote on Jan 28^th, 2012 at 8:19am:

......There are many who claim to be atheist who cannot rule God out. You seem to be one such, therefore just posing as an atheist. You either are or yu aren't. Tell me, what evidence is there of a God. Only go back as far as the dawn of time and highlight anything that shows a shred of proof of this being.

Don't you see how simple this actually is? No evidence, no proof, no God.

If someone produces such I'll change my views. Until then..... there is no God. What on earth are you "suspicious" about? Have I personally been hiding any such evidence since the dawn of time. Yes, got a room full of it. And I'm 40 million years old too.

".....Only go back as far as the dawn of time and highlight anything that shows a shred of proof of this being.....Don't you see how simple this actually is? No evidence, no proof, no God."

BETEARS,
Your logic is still flawed.

example #1,

Scenario;
If we both now live in a country where there were no houses [e.g. because everybody in this country lives in caves], i could tell you that i am a 'builder' of houses, and that i am entitled to claim that i am a builder of houses, ......because i have built houses.

i.e.
THAT IS 'KNOWLEDGE', WHICH I HAVE, THROUGH EXPERIENCE.

Not my 'wisdom'.

My experience.

And you could maybe say;

"Oh yeah, well if you are a builder of houses, where are the houses which you have built? Because this is a 'country' without houses, and i can't see any of your 'houses' here. Not anywhere."

The fact of logic is that even though you can't see the houses which i have built, is not proof that i cannot be, or that i am not, a builder of houses.

Your position/perspective is that you have never seen a house.

My position/perspective is that the houses which i have built exist in another country.

i.e.
THAT IS 'KNOWLEDGE', WHICH I HAVE, THROUGH EXPERIENCE.

Not my 'wisdom'.

My experience.

The fact that you cannot, or have not been to that other country, and have not seen the houses which i built, is of absolutely no consequence.

If i have built houses, i can claim that i am a builder of houses.

Even if you cannot see any of those houses.

example #2,

Exploring belief and personal conviction....

Prior to Columbus discovering the Americas [well, discovering central America anyway] the American continents did not exist.
....well, not within the mental consciousness of Europeans.

n.b.
Effectively, THE AMERICAS DID NOT 'EXIST', in the consciousness of Europeans, prior to Columbus discovery of the Americas.

And i am sure that when Columbus returned to Spain, that initially many of his interlocutors were unable to 'conceive' of his 'new world', beyond the horizon.

And indeed, when they first heard the 'tale', many Europeans refused to believe, that Columbus had discovered a 'new world'.

I suppose that some of them may have 'reasoned'.....

"A new world???
Beyond the horizon!!!
That is absurd.
I have not experienced it, and i can not conceive of it, therefore, it is not, it can not, be real."

+++

And it is the same concept when trying to convince a 'natural' man of the existence of a spiritual realm.

Trying to convince a 'natural' man of the existence of a spiritual realm, must be, i am sure, similar to the initial experience of Columbus when he returned from the new world.

e.g.
"I cannot believe in the spiritual experience of others, because >> i << have not experienced it."

i.e.
It is precisely the 'wisdom' of the carnal man, which prevents him from being willing to search, for something, which he already 'knows', 'cannot' exist.

LOL

+++

Romans 1:21
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Yadda on Jan 29^th, 2012 at 11:17am

muso wrote on Jan 29^th, 2012 at 8:46am:

Yadda wrote on Jan 28^th, 2012 at 11:27pm:

But hey BETEARS, go your own way.

Walk your path, oh wise man #2.

Have a nice life.

Hey muso,

That is so true. ;)

I am not claiming to have an 'unobstructed view' of reality, or of anything else.

I can only see, what i can see, from where i stand.

muso wrote on Jan 29^th, 2012 at 8:46am:

So, do you think God is just a transitive verb?

Grammar wasn't [was never] my strong suit.

I don't even understand the question.

That is, i don't comprehend what is being asked.

If you are asking; Do you think that 'God' is a construct of man's collective intellect ?

My answer is no.

Not from my experience, and 'perspective'.

But hey, there may a few trees 'blocking my view'. ::)

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by BETEARS on Jan 29^th, 2012 at 11:20am

[quote

Muso,

You? Technically an atheist? On what basis do you make that claim. If you do not know there is no God you cannot be atheist. At best you would be agnostic, room for God or no God. In other words you don't know so atheism is beyond you.

There are many who claim to be atheist who cannot rule God out. You seem to be one such, therefore just posing as an atheist. You either are or yu aren't. Tell me, what evidence is there of a God. Only go back as far as the dawn of time and highlight anything that shows a shred of proof of this being.

Don't you see how simple this actually is? No evidence, no proof, no God. If someone produces such I'll change my views.
[/quote]

Aha! You contradict yourself all over the place. That highlighted statement shows that you would change your mind if the evidence changed. That's not "know". Pull the other one.

It's like saying there is no Pluto in the 18th Century. That's fine, but nobody is saying that there can't be another planet beyond Neptune (or Uranus depending on which part of the 18th Century you're in.

By your definition, you're an agnostic. By my definition, you're an atheist.

My definition is "An Atheist is somebody who doesn't believe in God". It's quite simple. No mention of existence and no mention of certainty. So you can have agnostic atheists. You're obviously new to this, so have a read:

An agnostic is a person who doesn't know if God exists. An Agnostic atheist is a person who doesn't know for sure that God exists (for all he knows there could be a God) but he doesn't believe in God (ie god or gods have no relevance in his life).

From what I see, you haven't considered any other Gods outside Christianity because all you do is harp on about the Bible like some Richard Dawkins clone. [/quote]

Moronic response. Quoting Wikipedia as his source of truth. He clearly does not know who are the biggest contributors to WP. They are the Catholic Church and the CIA. Look it up before you sneer. In other words you get your info direct from the Pope.

Agnostic atheists. Oxymorons, same as him, no oxy required though.

Contradicting myself all over the place? You quote one line. Why exaggerate when a wildly sweeping statement is better?

Besides which there is no contradiction at all.

You see life actually changes and as we discover things we all have to change our views or start to sound like you and the starter of this thread. Who has no guts, hasn't read the Bible and cannot even attempt a few simple questions.

He's just a bloody TROLL. Don't you know even that? Faux atheists are worse than any serious Christian. You see those Christians are secure in their faith. You are not. You do not know a thing about atheism, reading Wikipedia!! What next?

Go away and do some real research and don't ever quote Wikipedia on anything, it's worse than the Bible as at least the Bible attempts a good message. Just the facts in it are not facts at all.

Go away little man, troll away.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 29^th, 2012 at 11:45am

BETEARS wrote on Jan 29^th, 2012 at 11:20am:

He's just a bloody TROLL. Don't you know even that? Faux atheists are worse than any serious Christian. You see those Christians are secure in their faith. You are not. You do not know a thing about atheism, reading Wikipedia!! What next?

Go away and do some real research and don't ever quote Wikipedia on anything, it's worse than the Bible as at least the Bible attempts a good message. Just the facts in it are not facts at all.

Go away little man, troll away.

You are hilarious. You've run out of theists so now you're taking on non-theists and Brights. I quoted the definition of Atheism from two leading Atheist organisations and you still continue to push your weird ideas about atheism. An atheist has a very simple point of view. He doesn't believe in gods.

Look, I'll even quote your hero Richard Dawkins:

Quote:

A person who does not believe that deities exist; one who lacks belief in gods.

2006, Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion, page 51:

You're barking up the wrong tree with your "knows that no Gods exist" angle.

A person who knows that no god exists is certainly an atheist, but only describes a tiny proportion of atheists.

"Don't believe in gods" . Nothing else. Simple to most of us..

Reading between the lines, you have a real obsession with this. I'm sure that you must have been a pretty devout Christian at one stage, and you continually feel a need to justify your current position.

Let me give you a clue - nobody cares.... Oh maybe Yadda will help the desperate calls of a pained soul. He's a caring type.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by BETEARS on Jan 29^th, 2012 at 11:48am

Oh dear Yada,

What a rant. And what do you say? Nothing at all actually.

You have no proof so go away and find some. You see invisible evidence is not real. It's part of the same delusion you suffer.

You say I don't know where to look. But do you tell me where to look? Ahhh, no, you don't. DO that and I'll try it, if I haven't already.

You use the same circular argument the TROLL does. We didn't know about x or y etc therefore God must be real.

No connection at all. Things are proven one by one and proving one does not make all fantasies real. Sorry, try another door, that one's locked. And not seeing radio waves is irrelevant. We hear them Richard the Third. We hear them, thus evidence.

You're quite right about different perceptions. You suffer a delusion, widely shared. I do not. Well spotted. No one ever noticed that before. Idiot.

And you raise the issue of not seeing stars in the daytime sky.. Yet part of the time we can see the moon, supposedly created by your God to signify dark and night time.

So you have just admitted the Bible is a fraud. And you didn't even know you were doing such.

And your example is just kindergarten drivel. If a tree falls..... It would fall on you for you wouldn't hear it.

No Yada, we have an aversion to lies actually and we are at peace within ourselves.

All those who follow your beliefs have doubts, therefore the word "faith". Tell me what of all those priests are having sex with little boys if they believe the Bible? I didn't see a passage that allowed that. Do they just confess and get forgiven? No, usually moved to another parish.

That's faith, broken any time.

And you quote the Bible at me. Fool.

Here's one line that destroys the whole religious delusion:

It's in Revelations and written by the same guy who ranted on about Armageddon (a real place at that time ) and doom.

Read it through and you will find this one line that gives the truth :

"The number of the Beast is the number of a MAN, and that number is 666".

Many pontificate on what the 666 represents but the most common theory is it means NERO, the vicious Roman emperor of the time.

But that is irrelevant, who it is does not matter. He states clearly the Beast is a MAN. Therefore dead, therefore no hell, no heaven, no God.

Read it and weep dick.

You've never read the Bible either have you?

In case you didn't know every Roman Emperor took the title "God", thus they were worshipped as a God. This is exactly why the story says Jesus was killed. Because he claimed to be the son of God.

And what of Soren. Silent Soren. Run away Soren, Trolls get nailed and exposed and their life expires on a site. You are a dead troll. Go bury yourself.

You could try accepting my challenges but you'd lose wouldn't you so you won't go there. Coward TROLL.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Yadda on Jan 29^th, 2012 at 12:18pm

BETEARS,

Yes, you are way, way, too clever for me.

Yes, your 'logic' demolishes my puny arguments.

Hey BETEARS, go your own way.

Walk your path, oh wise man #2.

Have a nice life, oh magnificent one. ;D

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by BETEARS on Jan 29^th, 2012 at 5:25pm

Thank you,

An admission, if intended cynically (Pathetic attempt). If this is the best you can do then I am indeed way too strong for you and that TROLL who is stil running, away.

There is no GOD and has never been.

No belief, no knowledge, no guts. What do you morons have any of?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Jan 29^th, 2012 at 8:26pm

BETEARS wrote on Jan 29^th, 2012 at 11:20am:

Aha! You contradict yourself all over the place. That highlighted statement shows that you would change your mind if the evidence changed. That's not "know". Pull the other one.

It's like saying there is no Pluto in the 18th Century. That's fine, but nobody is saying that there can't be another planet beyond Neptune (or Uranus depending on which part of the 18th Century you're in.

By your definition, you're an agnostic. By my definition, you're an atheist.

My definition is "An Atheist is somebody who doesn't believe in God". It's quite simple. No mention of existence and no mention of certainty. So you can have agnostic atheists. You're obviously new to this, so have a read:

An agnostic is a person who doesn't know if God exists. An Agnostic atheist is a person who doesn't know for sure that God exists (for all he knows there could be a God) but he doesn't believe in God (ie god or gods have no relevance in his life).

From what I see, you haven't considered any other Gods outside Christianity because all you do is harp on about the Bible like some Richard Dawkins clone. [/quote]

Moronic response. Quoting Wikipedia as his source of truth. He clearly does not know who are the biggest contributors to WP. They are the Catholic Church and the CIA. Look it up before you sneer. In other words you get your info direct from the Pope.

Agnostic atheists. Oxymorons, same as him, no oxy required though.

Contradicting myself all over the place? You quote one line. Why exaggerate when a wildly sweeping statement is better?

Besides which there is no contradiction at all.

You see life actually changes and as we discover things we all have to change our views or start to sound like you and the starter of this thread. Who has no guts, hasn't read the Bible and cannot even attempt a few simple questions.

He's just a bloody TROLL. Don't you know even that? Faux atheists are worse than any serious Christian. You see those Christians are secure in their faith. You are not. You do not know a thing about atheism, reading Wikipedia!! What next?

Go away and do some real research and don't ever quote Wikipedia on anything, it's worse than the Bible as at least the Bible attempts a good message. Just the facts in it are not facts at all.

Go away little man, troll away.[/quote]

You are talking toooo fvcken FAST for a sane person, Dances-With-Dawkins. Collect yourself, wipe the spittle off the screen, take the pills and breath normally. Unless you have bipolar disorder, of which talking very fast, jumping from one idea to another, having racing thoughts is a classic symptom. In which case, definitely take the pills, there's a good girl.

Being fixated on the Bible is for morons, moron. Any religion that has a saced text is not based just on that sacred text, you ignorant, damaged fool. It's the text PLUS exegesis (look it up in dictionary.com, numptie).

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by BETEARS on Jan 30^th, 2012 at 7:56am

muso wrote on Jan 29^th, 2012 at 11:45am:

BETEARS wrote on Jan 29^th, 2012 at 11:20am:

A person who does not believe that deities exist; one who lacks belief in gods.

Dawkins is noi hero of mine. I don't have any heroes. Dawkins is an idiot for engaging as he does. His subject is evolution, not religion.

Can't you read?

You admit some atheists know there is no God. Well, you are writing to one right now. God is a delusion for weak minds.

I do know there is no God. Even people of this thread tell me I haven't looked in the right place. But do they say where that is? No, they don't. Why? Because it's a lie.

Then you bang on about me being obseesed or some such crap. Sorry, I didn't write this thread or start it. That's the person obsessed.

I was never a Christian, never had any religion at all. Didn't care, wasn't interested. Had a need to find God as so many said he was there. He wan't, and iasn't. I searched for him with hope and found nothing.

You say nobody cares. Then why are you all writing here, claiming this and that and denying my syance when you know nothing of it?

I have no need of reassurance at all. I kbow God is a fiction. I jusr refute what you morons write for something to do for a short while. It's amusing to see the contortions you put your minds through.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by BETEARS on Jan 30^th, 2012 at 8:06am

[quote ......There are many who claim to be atheist who cannot rule God out.
[/quote]

Bull dung. If you can't rule God out then you are agnostic or Christian or any other religion who claims a God.

Your drivel is not worth replying to as you use ridiculous examples. America was always there, white man just hadn't learnt to travel. But do note man was actually already there so it was found way before the white man sailed in.

White man maybe didn't know but those who lived there certainly did. Or were they oblivious to land or something. Idiotic statements.

Columbus did NOT discover them at all. He was just an ignorant white man who made that claim despite the obvious fact people had been living there for longer than he could discover.

Dumb, dumb, dumb. Run away Yada, you moron. Try real thought, not just repeating the same insane point with examples that do not apply at all. America didn't exist!!!! What an idiot!!

Your rants are hysterical to read. Get a good laugfh from you every time. Well done.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by BETEARS on Jan 30^th, 2012 at 8:15am

muso wrote on Jan 29^th, 2012 at 11:45am:

BETEARS wrote on Jan 29^th, 2012 at 11:20am:

A person who does not believe that deities exist; one who lacks belief in gods.

Muso, I just pass the time waiting for the writer of this thread to engage on a civil evel and discuss his claims.

Look up the word belief. It implies there may be something else. A fact though leaves no doubt. I care not what others write or say. Atheists do not gather to cinstruct rules or agree upon any given line. It's a personal thing ONLY. But being atheist means knowing there is NO God. Else atheism is not present.

Your own words :

"A person who knows that no god exists is certainly an atheist, but only describes a tiny proportion of atheists."

You clearly admit people DO KNOW there is no God. I am one such. And when did you pill every atheist to find out what proportion believes what.

I abhor fake atheists and will expose them at every opportuniy as they are liars.

Same with Christians who claim things they don't know either.

Now you've admitted I am right, run away.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by BETEARS on Jan 30^th, 2012 at 8:29am

[quote You are talking toooo fvcken FAST for a sane person, Dances-With-Dawkins. Collect yourself, wipe the spittle off the screen, take the pills and breath normally. Unless you have bipolar disorder, of which talking very fast, jumping from one idea to another, having racing thoughts is a classic symptom. In which case, definitely take the pills, there's a good girl.

Being fixated on the Bible is for morons, moron. Any religion that has a saced text is not based just on that sacred text, you ignorant, damaged fool. It's the text PLUS exegesis (look it up in dictionary.com, numptie).

[/quote]

No spittle on this side of the screen Dick. Looks like it's just on your side.

Not a word from you about your claims, as usual.

But you choose to belittle people with depression. How dare you, you are the lowest of the low and disgust me. But you do make it obvious you suffer both depression and bipolar Disorder don't you? No big deal, just illnesses but you hide from it and accuse others of suffering the worst side effects. Most BP's when stable you could not pick from anyone. And, by the way, they are also highly intelligent. So you can't have it after all, can you?

You are obsessed with spittle I see. Hard reading your screen is it? I've never seen anyone with spittle. I don't go to old folks homes, just yet.

Again, for those hard of reading. I don't follow, like or laud Dawkins. He's on about evolution or didn't you know that. Which he is right about, by the way or do you deny evolution too? He's a sucker for trying to reason with any Chruistian, particularly Creationists.

I'm talking too fast? Funny, I thought I was writing. Maybe you are hearing voices old man?

Fixated on the Bible? You idiot. I KNOW the Bible and read it to try and find God. It is that book that showed me God does not exist.

It is your basic reference and you are fixated on it's contents, not I. I have finished with it but I still challenge you to any debate on that book, simply to prove you are a liar. You dare not, just call names and try diversions. Like any half wit.

What is in that pipe? It's not tobacco judging by your words.

As to "exegesis", why limit it to one web site? There are actually many variations of what that word means. Some as simple as "an explanation". Which definition do you favour, and why. Don't avoid that, dick. You brought it up, let's see how much you actually know when you accuse others of not knowing something.

Too gutless? Of course you are. Never to be mentioned again. By the way this isn't a grammar test, it's a test of your stupid claims and you ran away from them ages ago. Excrement, look up and see it. It's falling all over you.

Anyone else noticed this idiot does not even attempt to write anything on religion now. He's done. Crawl away little troll, find another home. Listen to Peer Gynt, the Hall of the mountan kings. Might give you some ideas where trolls live.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Jan 30^th, 2012 at 9:39am

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Yadda on Jan 30^th, 2012 at 10:50am

as they say....

warning_dont_feed_the_animals.jpg (33 KB | 73 )

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 30^th, 2012 at 11:08am

Yadda wrote on Jan 30^th, 2012 at 10:50am:

as they say....

OK. I won't . Can I poke them with a stick then?

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 30^th, 2012 at 11:12am

double up.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 30^th, 2012 at 11:56am

BETEARS wrote on Jan 30^th, 2012 at 8:15am:

I am one such.

Yes you are, Mr Google ;D and I'm an atheistic theist. I just choose to define god as being immanent without any mystical or supernatural elements. That doesn't mean "totally explainable". Human beings are not totally explainable, and the effect of the mass of humanity interacting and networking together certainly leads to a collective intelligence that transcends each individual in a society. Is that God? Well some people call it that.

If people get nervous about aspects of finance, it has a tangible effect. It's the same with the "God within". That's not totally at odds with Abrahamic belief either.

Did God create the universe? Er just a minute, I'll just check Wikipedia (Catholics and CIA eh? Whoa!) ... That would be a yes.... and no. Put it this way - I'll probably do just great in life without having an absolute answer to that question, and so will everybody else - except you (the one who knows) . Maybe the Deists are right. That just requires a minimalist non-interventionist god, as opposed to the whole package complete with gold frankinsense, and that other stuff that's good for rheumatism.

Does God exist? I'll leave that to Soren. He's a ratbag philosopher. He could rattle off reams on epistemology. I mean ontology.

Does Harry Potter exist? I'll test you for it.

Does Harry Potter

A. Have round Specs
B. Have a friend called Hermione Granger
C. Practice the dark arts
D. All of the above
E. Dumb, dumb, run away little moronic man. He doesn't exist. (and J K Rowling is penniless)

Am I therefore an agnostic? No, I'm an ignostic if anything, but I prefer not to have labels attached to me. I think you and Yadda might define God totally differently, so what's the point about arguing until you're blue in the face about the existence or otherwise of two separate things? One is a personal experience and the other is some cartoon cutout of a grey haired Charlton Heston look-alike on a cloud.

Do you like sugar in your coffee? What's your favourite colour? (let me guess - it's red). You see, to me these questions have about the same level of importance as whether you call something god or nature, or human nature. It's a question of individual taste or judgement.

The question of deities is not important for me. If you're an atheist, it shouldn't really be important for you either. In fact, go on like that and you'll end up with high blood pressure.

It's just a craving, and cravings cause suffering.

namaste

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Grey on Jan 30^th, 2012 at 3:50pm

In science, nothing can be proved to be true. But you can prove things to be useful to believe in, (or not).

'I don't believe in god', is Atheist shorthand for 'there's a 99.999 recurring chance of god not existing. ;D

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 30^th, 2012 at 3:57pm

Grey wrote on Jan 30^th, 2012 at 3:50pm:

Don't you believe in my sociological god? It's quite convincing ;D

Fair comment though, albeit (a)monotheistically phrased ;)

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Jasignature on Jan 31^st, 2012 at 3:04am

Although I'm not a practicing Religious person besides writing on Forums and doing other paperwork in life.
I can definately say that I'm not ANTI-Religious like an Atheist is and I don't wear black skivvies and have a musical/scientific (Occidental) background ...which seems the norm for Atheists if you suss out the Australian Atheist Forum (AFA) which I got banned from for saying how "Religious they 'read & write' upon their Forum" ;D

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Jasignature on Jan 31^st, 2012 at 3:06am

A true Atheist should never read or write (an expression born from Religion - hence Holy 'Books' ::)).

...like a Republican should always work the Queen's Birthday Holiday and not collect Penalty Rates for doing so.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 31^st, 2012 at 8:04am

It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Jan 31^st, 2012 at 3:06am:

LOL. A "true atheist" should have a sense of humour. By the way, I asked God for a sign about Betears, and when I was looking through my telescope the other night, I got this reply.

carina_hst.jpg (38 KB | 48 )

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Jan 31^st, 2012 at 9:25am

muso wrote on Jan 30^th, 2012 at 11:56am:

Does God exist? I'll leave that to Soren. He's a ratbag philosopher. He could rattle off reams on epistemology. I mean ontology.

And teleology, Mr Forgetful.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by BETEARS on Jan 31^st, 2012 at 9:25am

More irrelavant ranting from Muso, not to be read at all. An in depth reply from Soren stating all he knows about this topic. Yes, it's blank, just a stupid smile indicating lack of IQ.

Then this was Jas :

"A true Atheist should never read or write ". What? This is a nonsense. ATheists have the freedom to write and say what they want. The religious do not and should not. You got it backwards buddy. And this :

"I don't wear black skivvies and have a musical/scientific (Occidental) background". Well good for you Jas. I don't either. Skivvies are for bogans. and the 60's. You see a couple of photos of some fools and apply it to all. Usual Christian logic, being none.

Correct Grey. Except a true atheist says "I know there is no God".

You see Dear Grey. If one uses the word "belief" it implies room for doubt and it is on that basis I agree with you.

But true atheists KNOW there is no God. No beliefs or belief system required. Do try to be more precise with your use of the language.

There is no God.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 31^st, 2012 at 9:55am

BETEARS wrote on Jan 31^st, 2012 at 9:25am:

There is no God.

.......Probably. Nice picture of the agnos.. er the atheist bus:

http://www.atheistbus.org.uk/

Now stop worrying and enjoy your life. (I've never met such a religious atheist before.)

BETEARS wrote on Jan 31^st, 2012 at 9:25am:

You see a couple of photos of some fools and apply it to all. Usual Christian logic, being none.

Mate, only one actual Christian has replied to you so far, and he has given you up as a bad joke.

Quote:

Betears: I see Christians.
In your dreams?
[Betears shakes his head ]
While you're awake? [nods]
Christian people like, in churches, in prayer?
Betears: Walking around like regular people. They don't see each other. They only see what they want to see. They don't know they're Christian.
-How often do you see them?
Betears: All the time. They're everywhere.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Jan 31^st, 2012 at 10:14am

muso wrote on Jan 31^st, 2012 at 9:55am:

Mate, only one actual Christian has replied to you so far, and he has given you up as a bad joke.

Which goes to show that some Christians are far smarter than some atheists.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Jan 31^st, 2012 at 2:08pm

Soren wrote on Jan 31^st, 2012 at 10:14am:

muso wrote on Jan 31^st, 2012 at 9:55am:

Mate, only one actual Christian has replied to you so far, and he has given you up as a bad joke.

Which goes to show that some Christians are far smarter than some atheists.

Which just goes to show that atheists have more fun.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Feb 1^st, 2012 at 6:35am

Soren wrote on Jan 31^st, 2012 at 9:25am:

muso wrote on Jan 30^th, 2012 at 11:56am:

Does God exist? I'll leave that to Soren. He's a ratbag philosopher. He could rattle off reams on epistemology. I mean ontology.

And teleology, Mr Forgetful.

Gee, that would come in handy if your computer gets a virus.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by BETEARS on Feb 2^nd, 2012 at 2:35pm

There aren't any Christians on this site. Just buggerwits and trolls.

Keep banging on at each other .

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Yadda on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 7:55pm

On the ISLAM board, muso presented this post, with a neat chart/graphic.....

muso wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 11:00am:

Lestat wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 9:38am:

To now claim that agnostics and athiests are the same, which they are not, is laughable. To claim that 'Tom Huxley' came up with the term is even more laughable.

I'm not getting into the argument about Einstein. The way that God existed for Einstein is different from the way God exists for you and the way God exists for me. If we're talking about Gods with three different sets of attributes, the terms atheist and Theist don't convey much intelligence. I'd stick to Muslim in your case. "Muslim" and "Christian" are at least well defined whereas "Theist" is a bit wooly because God (Allah) outside the major religions is not adequately defined.

Here is a chart that I find useful. Agnostic is centred on knowledge and atheist is centred on belief - not that I use such terms much myself.

White = yes, Black = no and grey = grey. ;D

muso,

Nice chart/graphic.

But really, 'Agnosticism' does not sit well with the attribute which it is given; Knowledge

Dictionary;
agnostic = = a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God.

Dictionary;
theism = = belief in the existence of a god, a creator who intervenes in the universe.

Dictionary;
atheism = = the belief that God does not exist.

Hey muso,

I like this graphic [below] better. ;)

And i come back to my own little list;

1. There are people who believe that there is no God.
2. There are people who believe that there may be a God. But hey, they don't know.
3. There are people who believe that there is a God, and they pray to him.
4. There are people who know there is a God.

p.s.
re my #4; In my experience people do not find God, no matter how hard they 'search' for him.
God reveals himself to some people. Period.
If you do want to search for God, you must search for God with your heart.

agnost-2-know.gif (11 KB | 49 )

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Soren on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 8:30pm

Those charts - too boxy.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Yadda on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 8:46pm

Soren wrote on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 8:30pm:

Those charts - too boxy.

Yes, they sure are.

:)

Someone once described humans to me, as 'visual' creatures who can best interpret data, or comprehend 'incoming' data more easily, when data is presented to us visually, rather that linguistically, or conceptually.

For example;
For most persons, looking at a stock chart, we can clearly see the direction and movement of a price line, .......much more clearly, than, for example, looking at a set of figures on a piece of paper, or on a spreadsheet.

Similarly, we could verbally describe a beautiful sunset to someone, to another person.
But most of us would much rather experience the visual reality of a beautiful sunset- because that experience is more pleasing, and its beauty is so much easier to 'grasp', visually.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Feb 20^th, 2012 at 9:50am

Soren wrote on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 8:30pm:

Those charts - too boxy.

Agreed. You can put definitions of words in boxes, but I have never claimed to do the same with personal beliefs.

I've always maintained that Atheist and Agnostic are concepts that are too vague to make any real sense.

OK, I can buy Christian and Non-Christian, and I can buy Muslim and Non-Muslim, but a general definition of a person who believes in any definition of a god (pick a god - any god) and the corresponding negative "belief" is not very useful.

I don't have the same problem with Deism.

Yadda - I don't understand your chart because I think you've broken the convention of white = yes, black= no. What I think you're saying is that from where you sit, atheists and agnostics (Let's just call them non-Christians, because I think you'd probably lump Muslims and Animists in that category too), are not aware of the spirit of God. OK, I can understand your viewpoint.

I think it could also be a question of interpretation, in other words those day to day experiences that you interpret as evidence of God, I interpret as evidence of the human condition. We are not machines and we are certainly not totally logical, and we have a number of what I'd term "mental appendixes" (think body organ).

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Yadda on Feb 21^st, 2012 at 4:17pm

muso wrote on Feb 20^th, 2012 at 9:50am:

Soren wrote on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 8:30pm:

Those charts - too boxy.

".....those day to day experiences that you interpret as evidence of God, I interpret as evidence of the human condition."

Yes muso, the human condition.

That is what i am experiencing too.       ;)       ;D

And more.

muso,
if you look at your little graphic, Sisyphus, that is me.

That is Yadda.    ;)

Luke 18:1
And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;
2 Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:
3 And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.
4 And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;
5 Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.

Yadda is like the widow, and God is like that unjust judge.    ;)

No ?       ;D

Deuteronomy 10:12
And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Yadda on Feb 21^st, 2012 at 8:51pm

Yadda wrote on Feb 21^st, 2012 at 4:17pm:

muso wrote on Feb 20^th, 2012 at 9:50am:

Soren wrote on Feb 19^th, 2012 at 8:30pm:

Those charts - too boxy.

".....those day to day experiences that you interpret as evidence of God, I interpret as evidence of the human condition."

Yes muso, the human condition.

That is what i am experiencing too. ;) ;D

And more.

muso,

Something is changing, within me [it seems].

Just in the last 6 months....

When i go to bed, i will lay down on my bed, and turn off my bedroom light.
And then, my bedroom should be [and usually is] almost pitch black, esp. if there is no moon outside.
But in the last 6 months, on a several occasions, i have noticed a soft light [perhaps as bright as one lighted candle], it is just bright enough so that i can make out the position of the walls and furniture in my bedroom.
This isn't a dream, i am fully conscious, having just seconds ago, got into bed.

And, i can see this soft light in my bedroom, whether my eyes are open or, shut.
How weird is that?
LOL

On one occasion i could see the bright source of the light, which seemed quite a distance off [perhaps 100-200 meters].

I don't know what it [my 'seeing' this light] signifies.

And i don't know why this 'presence' has been 'apparent' to me, in just that last few months

But i have a strong sense that my 'God', is the source of this light.

On those several occasions when i have noticed the presence of this light, i just accept the 'light' being there, and i will just drift off to sleep normally.

[In my daily prayers, i normally ask God to protect me from the prayers [i.e. the curses] of demons, and i ask God to always surround me with his light.]

n.b.
I am not on any medication, and i do not take 'recreational' drugs.

Who needs 'recreational' drugs!!? ;D

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by muso on Feb 22^nd, 2012 at 10:12am

Yadda, You go on believing what you want to. Many Christians who deconvert suffer a very miserable existence. I'm not even going to go there.

I see your faith as a very positive thing. It benefits you and motivates you.

This is probably not the best forum to relate personal experiences of that kind. I'm concerned that people will dissect them, or make cheap remarks about your sanity.

I regard personal experiences of that kind as "sacred" in a sense, but my interpretation is different from yours. You do realise that we all have our "epiphanies?" (Myself included) It's not specific to Christians by any means. I feel that I know myself a lot better as a result of such events. So if you're insane, I'm proudly insane too.

Dark starry nights, especially in wilderness settings, the moon coming from behind a cloud, beautiful natural vistas all bring on such moments for me.

The human condition is a pretty special thing, and your "God" is obviously pretty special too. I respect your view and will continue to defend your right to that view against idiots.

If only we could have a forum where we could discuss such things openly. I find such discussions very illuminating. (I think you know me well enough to realise that I'm not being patronising.)

Go in peace, my friend.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Yadda on Feb 22^nd, 2012 at 11:35am

muso wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2012 at 10:12am:

Yes, i realise that possibility, of opening myself to disparagement, ridicule, pity,    muso.

Yadda, the NOT normal one.          :D             ;D

muso,

I look at mankind in this world, and i'm just glad, and i am happy, to be NOT 'normal'.          ;)       :P

I feel sorry, for much of mankind.

muso wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2012 at 10:12am:

I regard personal experiences of that kind as "sacred" in a sense, but my interpretation is different from yours. You do realise that we all have our "epiphanies?" (Myself included) It's not specific to Christians by any means. I feel that I know myself a lot better as a result of such events. So if you're insane, I'm proudly insane too.

OK, thanks for that, ......i think! ;D ;D ;D

muso wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2012 at 10:12am:

Dark starry nights, especially in wilderness settings, the moon coming from behind a cloud, beautiful natural vistas all bring on such moments for me.

The human condition is a pretty special thing, and your "God" is obviously pretty special too. I respect your view and will continue to defend your right to that view against idiots.

If only we could have a forum where we could discuss such things openly. I find such discussions very illuminating. (I think you know me well enough to realise that I'm not being patronising.)

Go in peace, my friend.

You too, muso.

Thank you, for your tolerance, of this foolish person, that i am.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by wilrichards on Feb 28^th, 2012 at 1:58am

I personally don't believe in one religion, at least none of them I know seems to be the right for me, but I do believe in a god, or something like that. Sometimes I believe more and sometimes I believe less.. and sometimes I even think that I believe in Christianity. I'm twisted.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Yadda on Feb 28^th, 2012 at 2:18am

wilrichards wrote on Feb 28^th, 2012 at 1:58am:

wilrichards,

A suggestion.

If you care to.

Try reading the Psalms. [ <-----my fav book of the Bible.]

If anything can 'un-twist' you, the Psalms can, imo.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by nairbe on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 7:27pm

Yadda wrote on Feb 28^th, 2012 at 2:18am:

wilrichards wrote on Feb 28^th, 2012 at 1:58am:

wilrichards,

A suggestion.

If you care to.

Try reading the Psalms. [ <-----my fav book of the Bible.]

If anything can 'un-twist' you, the Psalms can, imo.

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D to many times at youth group and bible study. do simpletons like you really think kids don't realise they are being lied too.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Yadda on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 6:11am

nairbe wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 7:27pm:

Yadda wrote on Feb 28^th, 2012 at 2:18am:

wilrichards wrote on Feb 28^th, 2012 at 1:58am:

wilrichards,

A suggestion.

If you care to.

Try reading the Psalms. [ <-----my fav book of the Bible.]

If anything can 'un-twist' you, the Psalms can, imo.

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D to many times at youth group and bible study.

do simpletons like you really think kids don't realise they are being lied too.

nairbe,

So, only what is 'apparent' [i.e. what can be seen, or what we can 'poke'] is true/real ?    ;D

e.g.
Do you believe everything you are told by the mainstream media, so long as it offers you a 'promise' of 'certainty' ?

LOL

In this world, in this society, promises are made, to be broken.

Of that, you can be certain.       ;D

Of course we are being lied to.

But what is the 'truth' ?

If you want to find truth, then look for it inside yourself, not in the world.

Because truth is not a 'rock' which can be held in our hand.

Truth is a concept [e.g. like morality].

Dictionary;
morality = =
1 principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour.       a system of values and moral principles.
2 the extent to which an action is right or wrong.

When i was a child, the word discrimination had a different meaning to what it has today.

The word discrimination once had the meaning of #2, below.

Today the word discrimination predominantly, has the meaning of #1, below.

Dictionary;
discrimination = =
1 the action of discriminating against people.
2 recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another.    good judgement or taste.

Today, our modern God-less culture would like us to believe [and is teaching our children] that there is no 'right' or 'wrong'.

Today, everything [i.e. 'right' or 'wrong'] is defined around perceived 'harm'.

Everything, anything, is permissible so long as no 'harm' is done.

Our societal 'morality leaders' now teach us that discernment of 'right' or 'wrong' or, 'good' or 'evil' is a [social] crime.

Today, the act of 'discrimination' is portrayed as a [social] crime.

nairbe,

Q.
Do simpletons like you really think kids don't realise they are being lied too.

They do, we all have a 'sense' of it.

But we [the children of this generation] are confused, and lost.

Confused, and lost, is what happens to people who have no moral anchor.

And those people who are confused, and lost, can be easily led, by other evil men.

So, for wanting 'something' [which is missing, within us], we become the servants of evil.

+++

Matthew 13:10
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

nairbe,

How can a person learn 'the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven' ?

Psalms 25:12
What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.
13 His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.
14 The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.

+++

nairbe,

Go your way.

Walk your own path.

Have a nice life.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by nairbe on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 2:18pm

Yadda wrote on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 6:11am:

nairbe wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 7:27pm:

Yadda wrote on Feb 28^th, 2012 at 2:18am:

wilrichards wrote on Feb 28^th, 2012 at 1:58am:

wilrichards,

A suggestion.

If you care to.

Try reading the Psalms. [ <-----my fav book of the Bible.]

If anything can 'un-twist' you, the Psalms can, imo.

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D to many times at youth group and bible study.

do simpletons like you really think kids don't realise they are being lied too.

Very sweet Yadda but not a shread of sense in any of it.

Do you believe what the media tells you? I certainly believe very little of what the media says, i use my years of life the experiences i have had the events i have seen, these are the tools that will not lie to you. The church lied to me for years and then lied to cover the lies when chalenged so please.

Yadda,

If you require a god to give you a morale anchor then you have very shallow morale values and are clearly struggling with yourself as to what those values are. I am very comfortable in my skin and my morale compass is spot on thanks. I know how i wish to be treated and treat other the same, HONESTLY.

Yadda,

So yes go your way in life as shall I, I never suggested otherwise nor do i push my views anywhere except on atheist sites where i like to challenge this silly idea that atheism is a religion.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by Yadda on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 3:06pm

nairbe wrote on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 2:18pm:

Do you believe what the media tells you? I certainly believe very little of what the media says, i use my years of life the experiences i have had the events i have seen, these are the tools that will not lie to you.

The church lied to me for years and then lied to cover the lies when chalenged so please.

Well i'm sorry that that happened to you.

So if the spirit of God exists, it is OK [it is just], to blame the spirit of God, for what men did to you.

???

nairbe wrote on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 2:18pm:

Yadda,

If you require a god to give you a morale anchor then you have very shallow morale values and are clearly struggling with yourself as to what those values are.

That is true.

I do struggle, with 'interfacing' with this world, every single day.

And i am weak, and it is the spirit of God that sustains me, in this evil world of men.

I am not strong, .....God is strong, and his spirit helps me.

1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Jeremiah 17:14
Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be saved: for thou art my praise.i
nairbe wrote on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 2:18pm:

I am very comfortable in my skin and my morale compass is spot on thanks. I know how i wish to be treated and treat other the same, HONESTLY.

I don't think so [I don't believe you].

Personally, i think that you are being willful, and rebellious.

And you are using the excuse of past betrayals, by people 'representing' God, to you, as an excuse to now pursue your own rebellious path.

And that is your choice.

God's spirit does not compel us.

God spirit only calls to us.

But don't blame God.

Instead, accept the responsibility, for the consequences, of your own choices.

And inevitably, we all must.

Revelation 3:19
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by nairbe on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 7:25pm

Yadda wrote on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 3:06pm:

nairbe wrote on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 2:18pm:

Yadda,

If you require a god to give you a morale anchor then you have very shallow morale values and are clearly struggling with yourself as to what those values are.

I am very comfortable in my skin and my morale compass is spot on thanks. I know how i wish to be treated and treat other the same, HONESTLY.

OH please, you are weak and it is the spirit that helps you, what a weak cop out. Stop using a fairytale as a crutch and an excuse when you can not control your behaviour. You are the one incontrol so be clear with yourself and stop taking the weak way out.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by tyciol on Mar 14^th, 2012 at 12:32pm

Sappho wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 9:24am:

As an atheist bro, I don't believe in this because your argument is inadequate. It falls short. It doesn't convince me.

Where is this very powerful circumstantial/direct evidence? What is it? I need to know its nature before I can interpret it.

Title: Re: How Atheist Are You?
Post by freediver on Dec 10^th, 2023 at 4:55pm

This Topic was moved here from Atheism by freediver.