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Member Run Boards >> Islam >> Abu and Les deflecting re: death for apostasy
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1316600915

Message started by freediver on Sep 21st, 2011 at 8:28pm

Title: Abu and Les deflecting re: death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Sep 21st, 2011 at 8:28pm

Lestat wrote on Sep 21st, 2011 at 9:28am:

freediver wrote on Sep 20th, 2011 at 9:20pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 9th, 2008 at 7:12pm:

Quote:
but you especially object to them talking in a gay way, having their own culture, and riding round on floats with their arse cheeks hanging out?


Islamically, someone who'd taken it this far would've apostasised and the Islamic ruling for apostasy would now apply to him. Talking is not part of this though, as some people have lisps and other speech impediments which cause them to talk like that. Whether it's hormone related or not, the speech in itself is not forbidden. However, if it's done intentionally to emulate women, then yes it's forbidden.

Hope that clears it all up. Please don't keep going on with this nonsense, it's really a distasteful topic to keep discussing. You might find it pleasant, I personally don't.



freediver wrote on Oct 9th, 2008 at 7:32pm:
and the Islamic ruling for apostasy would now apply to him

What is that again? I think there was some abiguity last time we touched on that.



abu_rashid wrote on Oct 9th, 2008 at 7:44pm:
[quote]What is that again? I think there was some abiguity last time we touched on that.


Not from me, perhaps with Malik. Apostasy is a capital offense.


Do you still think I am lying Les? I believe we have gone over this before, but as soon as it got to me posting that quote, you suddenly got all shy on me. Do you think that Abu has posted any further clarification on who he wants to stone to death for being the wrong type of Muslim?

Do you think being gay is plotting against the state and we are 'misrepresenting' what Abu posted?


Yes, you are lying..or least of all, being deliberately misleading.

No one has debated that the punishment for apostasy isn't death. I never said it wasn't.

What I, and Abu have stated time and time again, is that 'apostacy' laws have more to do with treason, then they do with leaving Islam par se.

Just as treason is punishable by death in many western countries (including the US).....treason is also punishable by death under Islamic law.


You know this, we have told you this a number of times, yet you still insist with the same lies and ignorance.

Your getting rather boring FD....[/quote]


abu_rashid wrote on Sep 21st, 2011 at 7:21pm:
I think he still needs it said a little slower... be patient with him, he's not the sharpest tool in the shed.


Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by abu_rashid on Sep 21st, 2011 at 10:30pm
fd I don't even follow what you're on about nowadays, because it's just drivel really.

From what I can guess, you seem to have had some discussion with Lestat in which you claimed I don't consider apostasy to be treason... Yet on several occasions I've stated this very fact. As follows:


abu_rashid wrote on Aug 12th, 2010 at 3:08pm:

Quote:
killing those that leave your perverse belief system, that spiritual too ??


All societies have treason laws... nothing out of the ordinary there.



abu_rashid wrote on Oct 8th, 2009 at 10:26am:

Quote:
Ibn Rushd (Averroes), The Distinguished Jurist’s Primer, “Chapter on the Hukm of the Murtadd (Apostate),” Volume II, (p. 552), Section 56.10: “An apostate, if taken captive before he declares war...


This is the real issue here, which your ignorant claims neglect to take into account. The Islamic texts which speak about capital punishment for the apostate make it quite clear that it's speaking about the traitor who commits treason. Islamically the two are intrinsically linked, which makes it difficult to seperate the issues today.



abu_rashid wrote on Mar 23rd, 2009 at 2:10pm:
Yadda,


Quote:
I would state that every example of 'honour' killing involving muslims, which i have come across, has been justified [by the muslim perp] on the basis of the victims apostasy.


Every single example? Can you show me one? or fifty??

Even if it were the case (which i sincerely doubt it is, I've never seen such a claim, and EVERY example is just outrageous), it still doesn't establish it has anything to do with Islamic doctrine. Even apostasy/treason laws in Islam MUST be decided by a court of law, not by rampaging vigilantes in extra-judicial executions.



abu_rashid wrote on Mar 12th, 2009 at 9:35am:

Quote:
AND 'SANE' MUSLIMS ALL AGREE - KILL THE APOSTATE


The Islamic texts stipulate it is the one who abandons Islam AND the community, ie. a traitor. Death penalty is quite common for treason, so again, nothing out of the ordinary.



abu_rashid wrote on Feb 15th, 2009 at 11:57pm:

Quote:
1) Death penalty for Apostasy. Interestingly, this is not actually in the Koran, but Islam has adopted it anyway.


As has been pointed out to you enough times, this is from hadith, and it clearly indicates it is for treason against the Islamic state.



abu_rashid wrote on Feb 14th, 2009 at 7:43am:

Quote:
Crap Abu. The US does not call for the death penalty of those who think freedom and democracy is a bad idea... ...does not mean that Islam's death penalty for apostasy can be equated with America's penalty for treasoin.


US citizens who reject US freedom and democracy, and embrace Communism, can and have been executed for doing so. And if Senator Joe had had his way, it would not have had to have involved a conviction for spying.

Anyway, this was a comparative analogy, I wasn't claiming the two death penalties are exactly alike, they are not. Although I do consider it to be treason, and that's what's mentioned in the hadiths about it, quite clearly.

You claimed that it's "crap" that Islam spreads by people recognising the truth of it  and embracing it, BECAUSE of the fact the death penalty exists for apostates. Now that's no more correct than the assertion that the US doesn't believe in freedom and democracy, BECAUSE of the fact it calls for the death penalty for those who reject those things, and embrace another ideology, committing treason against the state. Nowhere does that analogy maintain that the two death penalties are identical in their details.



abu_rashid wrote on Feb 8th, 2009 at 11:04pm:

Quote:
not killing apostates etc


As has been mentioned above, death penalty is the issue you should be discussing. Also treason (which is what apostasy is according to Islam) *IS* a capital offence in many 'modern' states.


Now in several of those quotes, you were the other party engaged in the discussion. And you wonder why nobody here is interested in playing "lets do research for fd".

You can try and claim it's about deflections or obfuscating the "truth" from you, but the mundane fact is it's just about people tiring of posting things for you time and time again. Either your memory is extremely poor, or you're just not very bright, either way (and I think it's a bit of both personally), it's not our position to have to keep reiterating these things for you.

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Sep 22nd, 2011 at 9:34pm

Quote:
in which you claimed I don't consider apostasy to be treason... Yet on several occasions I've stated this very fact.


No Abu. All I said was that you consider the appropriate penalty for apostasy to be death by stoning.

To be honest I am not really interested in the treason connection. I also find it hard to believe that the example given of a man being gay is treason.

Les appears to be trying to argue that because you consider apostasy to be treason that the death penalty does not apply to apostasy, or that it only applies in a situation where a rational person would also consider it treason. Is this one of those tricks where you redefine the words so you can say the death penalty applies to treason but not apostasy?

In any case, he accuses me of lying about it constantly. Is there something I have missed? Have I misunderstood you in some way here?


Quote:
but the mundane fact is it's just about people tiring of posting things for you time and time again


Abu, the only reason I seek clarification on it is because people accuse me of lying every time I say you support the death penalty for apostasy. I direct them to your posts. You hardly clarify the situation and seem to go out of your way to reinforce their confusion. I am more than happy to point out your views on killing people myself, but if you come in and validate their confusion it is your fault when it all comes back to you.

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by salad in on Sep 24th, 2011 at 7:53am

freediver wrote on Sep 22nd, 2011 at 9:34pm:
No Abu. All I said was that you consider the appropriate penalty for apostasy to be death by stoning.


And just what is wrong with stoning and beheading? HTFU will you. And just remember Islam is a religion of peace.

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Sep 24th, 2011 at 9:48am
Ask Abu and Les. They are the ones trying desperately to pretend they don't support it. The way I see it, if they really believe it is the word of God they should shout it from the rooftops, not mutter it when they hope no-one is listening.

I don't think Les has even given his opinion on it. Given his efforts to paint me as a liar it would be interesting to see whether he shares Abu's view after all.

Other than the initial admission by Abu a few years back, this thread is the closest he has come to confirming his views on the penalty for apostasy. He claims to tire of repeatedly answering the question, but it looks to me that what he tires off is continually making up convoluted excuses for not answering. I can see how that would require a lot more effort.

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by bobbythebat1 on Sep 24th, 2011 at 9:52am

freediver wrote on Sep 24th, 2011 at 9:48am:
Ask Abu and Les. They are the ones trying desperately to pretend they don't support it. The way I see it, if they really believe it is the word of God they should shout it from the rooftops, not mutter it when they hope no-one is listening.

I don't think Les has even given his opinion on it. Given his efforts to paint me as a liar it would be interesting to see whether he shares Abu's view after all.

Other than the initial admission by Abu a few years back, this thread is the closest he has come to confirming his views on the penalty for apostasy. He claims to tire of repeatedly answering the question, but it looks to me that what he tires off is continually making up convoluted excuses for not answering. I can see how that would require a lot more effort.


Muslims want Sharia law here.
Death is the only penalty for apostasy.

see my post
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1316819115/0

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Yadda on Sep 24th, 2011 at 7:31pm

freediver wrote on Sep 24th, 2011 at 9:48am:
Ask Abu and Les. They are the ones trying desperately to pretend they don't support it.

The way I see it, if they really believe it is the word of God they should shout it from the rooftops, not mutter it when they hope no-one is listening.


I don't think Les has even given his opinion on it. Given his efforts to paint me as a liar it would be interesting to see whether he shares Abu's view after all.

Other than the initial admission by Abu a few years back, this thread is the closest he has come to confirming his views on the penalty for apostasy. He claims to tire of repeatedly answering the question, but it looks to me that what he tires off is continually making up convoluted excuses for not answering. I can see how that would require a lot more effort.


That is a good point FD.



But the fact is, that moslems are only prepared to reveal what ISLAM really is, when moslems believe that they have the ability [the political power, the 'licence'] to murder their critics, for 'insulting' ISLAM.

Otherwise, moslems, and the whole moslem community, will blatantly, and intentionally, and deceitfully, misrepresent ISLAM to non-moslems and to naive and trusting non-moslem host communities.

Moslems are unwilling to lay ISLAM bare to the scrutiny of non-moslems, because moslems know that they, moslems, are guilty people.

Moslems know that they are, themselves, kuffar.



Quote:

You who embrace ISLAM, your own lies and deception, have become a witness against you, before God......

"kuffar" = = "...is an Arabic word meaning.....[an unbeliever] a person....who hides, denies, or covers the truth."

more on that, here...
"Dear muslim, YOU are the kuffar"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1229682951/0#0






"If you want to know a man's character, give him power."
Abraham Lincoln


Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Lisa on Sep 24th, 2011 at 10:25pm

salad in wrote on Sep 24th, 2011 at 7:53am:

freediver wrote on Sep 22nd, 2011 at 9:34pm:
No Abu. All I said was that you consider the appropriate penalty for apostasy to be death by stoning.


And just what is wrong with stoning and beheading? HTFU will you. And just remember Islam is a religion of peace.


Post of the year!

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Yadda on Sep 26th, 2011 at 3:35pm
Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy...


freediver wrote on Sep 24th, 2011 at 9:48am:
Ask Abu and Les.

They are the ones trying desperately to pretend they don't support it.


The way I see it, if they really believe it is the word of God they should shout it from the rooftops, not mutter it when they hope no-one is listening.

I don't think Les has even given his opinion on it. Given his efforts to paint me as a liar it would be interesting to see whether he shares Abu's view after all.

Other than the initial admission by Abu a few years back, this thread is the closest he has come to confirming his views on the penalty for apostasy. He claims to tire of repeatedly answering the question, but it looks to me that what he tires off is continually making up convoluted excuses for not answering. I can see how that would require a lot more effort.




Is it any wonder that societies in the world today, which claim to be ISLAMIC and Sharia guided, are [almost always] nests of oppression, depravity, corruption, violence, injustice, and human poverty ???

I mean, just look at the 'representative' moslems in this forum.

It is impossible to get an honest, a candid answer, a truthful admission, from a moslem in this forum regarding ISLAM, and what ISLAM promotes relating to the treatment and the status of non-moslems, within Sharia jurisdictions.

How could a society, a moslem society, whose members would so thoroughly, and wantonly, and happily, and so shamelessly, immerse themselves in the corrupt practices of denial, lying and the deception [of others], ever be a society which enjoys a semblance of justice and happiness ?

Upon close examination and scrutiny of ISLAM and its own 'religious' texts, and the scrutiny of the actions of moslems in the world, ISLAM is revealed to be a vicious supremacist political philosophy, which promotes the use of deception, blatant lying, intimidation and extreme violence to further its aims.



I have said this previously;
I regard ISLAM as a deceptive and violent philosophy, a cult, which, imo, creates a mental pathology, in those persons who choose to embrace it.



Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by abu_rashid on Sep 27th, 2011 at 7:08am

Yadda wrote on Sep 26th, 2011 at 3:35pm:
It is impossible to get an honest, a candid answer, a truthful admission, from a moslem in this forum regarding ISLAM, and what ISLAM promotes relating to the treatment and the status of non-moslems, within Sharia jurisdictions.


Really? Did you ever read the Common misconceptions thread?

Let me quote for you:

The Messenger of Allah (saw) said: “He who harms a person under covenant, or charged him more than he can, I will argue against him on the Day of Judgement.”

The Messenger of Allah (saw) said: “He who hurts a dhimmi hurts me, and he who hurts me annoys Allah.”

The classical scholars of Islam also detailed the rights of the Muslims towards the dhimmi. The famous Maliki jurist, Shaha al-Deen al-Qarafi states:

"The covenant of protection imposes upon us certain obligations toward the ahl al-dhimmah. They are our neighbours, under our shelter and protection upon the guarantee of Allah, His Messenger (saw), and the religion of Islam. Whoever violates these obligations against any one of them by so much as an abusive word, by slandering his reputation, or by doing him some injury or assisting in it, has breached the guarantee of Allah, His Messenger (saw), and the religion of Islam."

I think it's quite clear from this what Islam promotes relating to the treatment of non-Muslims within shari'ah jurisdiction. However, you're not interested in what Islam promotes, you are only interested in peddling the garbage you've read on jihadwatch and other such loon haunts.

I can lead you to the water, but I can't make you drink it, that's up to you.

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Yadda on Sep 27th, 2011 at 8:36am

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 27th, 2011 at 7:08am:

Yadda wrote on Sep 26th, 2011 at 3:35pm:
It is impossible to get an honest, a candid answer, a truthful admission, from a moslem in this forum regarding ISLAM, and what ISLAM promotes relating to the treatment and the status of non-moslems, within Sharia jurisdictions.


Really? Did you ever read the Common misconceptions thread?

Let me quote for you:

The Messenger of Allah (saw) said: “He who harms a person under covenant, or charged him more than he can, I will argue against him on the Day of Judgement.”

The Messenger of Allah (saw) said: “He who hurts a dhimmi hurts me, and he who hurts me annoys Allah.”

The classical scholars of Islam also detailed the rights of the Muslims towards the dhimmi. The famous Maliki jurist, Shaha al-Deen al-Qarafi states:

"The covenant of protection imposes upon us certain obligations toward the ahl al-dhimmah. They are our neighbours, under our shelter and protection upon the guarantee of Allah, His Messenger (saw), and the religion of Islam. Whoever violates these obligations against any one of them by so much as an abusive word, by slandering his reputation, or by doing him some injury or assisting in it, has breached the guarantee of Allah, His Messenger (saw), and the religion of Islam."

I think it's quite clear from this what Islam promotes relating to the treatment of non-Muslims within shari'ah jurisdiction. However, you're not interested in what Islam promotes, you are only interested in peddling the garbage you've read on jihadwatch and other such loon haunts.

I can lead you to the water, but I can't make you drink it, that's up to you.






Abu,

Thank you for your considered reply.

Highlighting the supposed "covenant of protection" is all very well, but the practise is, that even the smallest, imagined slight against a moslem or his religion is used as an excuse [by moslems] to discard that 'protection'.

And you know that that is true.

There are many many cases, where [within a Sharia jurisdiction] a non-moslem businessman, in competition with a moslem counterpart, has been falsely accused of some slight against ISLAM, and thereby been the victim of 'lawful' whipped-up moslem community violence against him.


Google;
muslim violence perceived +slight


And thereby, the supposed "covenant of protection", is 'lawfully' circumvented by moslems, and dhimmis are 'lawfully' intimidated and persecuted [and sometimes even 'lawfully' murdered], by moslems.


EXAMPLES;

"Pakistan: Christian girl beaten by teacher and expelled from school over "blasphemous" spelling error on paper
This kind of abuse is not a crisis for Islamabad. Pakistani authorities have demonstrated that they do not care for Christian victims, or Ahmadis, Shi'ites, Afghans, or Indians, but the same Islamic supremacists who commit violence against those groups will ultimately come calling at Islamabad's gates as well. "Girl accused of blasphemy for a spelling error," by Muhammad Sadaqat for the Express Tribune, September 25:"

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/09/pakistan-christian-girl-beaten-by-teacher-and-expelled-from-school-over-blasphemous-spelling-error-o.html


"Pakistan: Priest in Diocese of Lahore says "the police help the guilty" when Muslim men rape non-Muslim women
   The woman began to scream, then asked the trio to leave her free to think their children who were waiting at home. Instead, the men took Arifa by force to a house and, one by one, they raped her. The family is in shock and even their attempt to report the rape has added insult to injury: the Muslims have threatened her husband, warning him to withdraw the lawsuit. Otherwise, his children will have to go through what his wife has gone through. The police has also protected the perpetrators, putting pressure on Muashtaq Masih.
   Fr. Jill John confirms that "the police helps the guilty, with omissions and gaps in the compilation of complaints to favor their freedom." The family of the raped woman, added the priest, are now living in fear while criminals are free to roam the streets of the town."

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/09/pakistan-priest-in-diocese-of-lahore-says-the-police-help-the-guilty-when-muslim-men-rape-non-muslim.html


Is that moslem protection, for 'a person under covenant' ?

Or, as you are often want to 'explain' Abu, that these examples are yet another case, where these moslems are not REAL moslems ?






Abu,

Q.
When will moslems, themselves, take responsibility for what ISLAM and Sharia enable and empower [i.e. the persecution and abuse of the weak and those without political power], within Sharia jurisdictions ???

A.
Never.
Never will a moslem acknowledge, that it is the form and doctrines of ISLAM itself, which is facilitating wholesale injustices and abuses [of the weak and those without political power] within Sharia jurisdictions.




Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by abu_rashid on Sep 27th, 2011 at 8:17pm

Quote:
Or, as you are often want to 'explain' Abu, that these examples are yet another case, where these moslems are not REAL moslems ?


I think this is another case of you wanting to project Christianity's own failings onto Islam. We all know Christianity sets up lofty standards of peace loving and turning the other cheek etc. yet in reality this never existed all throughout the 2000 year history of Christianity. It is a fantasy. So I can see why you'd want to then try and superimpose your own religion's failings onto others.


Quote:
And thereby, the supposed "covenant of protection", is 'lawfully' circumvented by moslems, and dhimmis are 'lawfully' intimidated and persecuted [and sometimes even 'lawfully' murdered], by moslems.


EXAMPLES...


As you know, I do not consider Pakistan an Islamic state, nor could any sane person. It is quite clearly so far removed from Islamic Shari'ah, and always has been since its inception. The last Shari'ah state ceased implementation in the early 1900's, this is a simple fact. For 1350~ years prior to that though, Shari'ah was implemented, and Ahl al-Dhimma were protected, this is the reality you cannot deny, hence your pathetic scramble to put Pakistan up as an example. Personally I'd like to see Pakistan, and the evil it implements, gone more than you would, so you're only preaching to the converted on that issue.

Again, I state that Islam protects the rights of Ahl al-Dhimma, and that the Prophet (pbuh) made it quite clear what the obligations of Muslims were towards them.

Also for the record your example of business men in post-Shari'ah states can be just as easily used to show how those people do the same things to fellow Muslims, it's got nothing to do with Muslim/Kafir at all. I know of many cases of non-Saudi Muslims for instance being completely ruined by their Saudi "sponsors" who are their mandatory business partners when doing business there. Then on the other hand, there's hundreds of Western corporations doing business there getting mighty fine treatment, so your examples are nonsense, and are proved to be such.

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Sep 27th, 2011 at 9:50pm

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 27th, 2011 at 7:08am:

Yadda wrote on Sep 26th, 2011 at 3:35pm:
It is impossible to get an honest, a candid answer, a truthful admission, from a moslem in this forum regarding ISLAM, and what ISLAM promotes relating to the treatment and the status of non-moslems, within Sharia jurisdictions.


Really? Did you ever read the Common misconceptions thread?

Let me quote for you:

The Messenger of Allah (saw) said: “He who harms a person under covenant, or charged him more than he can, I will argue against him on the Day of Judgement.”

The Messenger of Allah (saw) said: “He who hurts a dhimmi hurts me, and he who hurts me annoys Allah.”

The classical scholars of Islam also detailed the rights of the Muslims towards the dhimmi. The famous Maliki jurist, Shaha al-Deen al-Qarafi states:

"The covenant of protection imposes upon us certain obligations toward the ahl al-dhimmah. They are our neighbours, under our shelter and protection upon the guarantee of Allah, His Messenger (saw), and the religion of Islam. Whoever violates these obligations against any one of them by so much as an abusive word, by slandering his reputation, or by doing him some injury or assisting in it, has breached the guarantee of Allah, His Messenger (saw), and the religion of Islam."

I think it's quite clear from this what Islam promotes relating to the treatment of non-Muslims within shari'ah jurisdiction. However, you're not interested in what Islam promotes, you are only interested in peddling the garbage you've read on jihadwatch and other such loon haunts.

I can lead you to the water, but I can't make you drink it, that's up to you.


Abu, can you explain to us how Islam instructs Muslims to approach testimony given in court by non-Muslims?

What if the non-Muslim used to be a Muslim? You can hardly claim that Islam protects non-Muslims while at the same time calling for them to be stoned to death.

What 'protection' does Islam offer those who are not from an Abrahamic religion? Every time I ask this you seem to post examples of where Muslims strayed from Islam and allowed them to live but avoid explaining what Islam actually calls for.

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Yadda on Sep 28th, 2011 at 8:50am
Yadda....

Quote:
Or, as you are often want to 'explain' Abu, that these examples are yet another case, where these moslems are not REAL moslems ?


Abu responds....

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 27th, 2011 at 8:17pm:
As you know, I do not consider Pakistan an Islamic state, nor could any sane person. It is quite clearly so far removed from Islamic Shari'ah, and always has been since its inception....Personally I'd like to see Pakistan, and the evil it implements, gone more than you would, so you're only preaching to the converted on that issue.


As per usual, we see....

A good, virtuous moslem [or community of moslems] in the world = = A MYTHICAL, NON EXISTENT CREATURE

A moslem in the world who is a corrupt, violent oppressor of his fellow man = = NOT A REAL MOSLEM







abu_rashid wrote on Sep 27th, 2011 at 8:17pm:

Again, I state that Islam protects the rights of Ahl al-Dhimma, and that the Prophet (pbuh) made it quite clear what the obligations of Muslims were towards them.


Abu,

It is absolutely impossible for ISLAM to produce a harmonious, just, and stable society.

Any rational person who was to examine what ISLAM promotes, would have to come to that conclusion.

And it is also true that, much of recorded ISLAMIC history [recording that moslems were the most benevolent masters of other peoples, and that those periods of ISLAMIC dominance of other peoples were always virtuous and benevolent], was manufactured, and 'confected'.

An 'ISLAMIC' history, which is 'confected' by moslems themselves, to be a veil of ISLAMIC lies about ISLAM's own self professed virtue, so as to conceal the history of depraved tyranny, which always underlines ISLAMIC authority.

In today's world, only a liar would deny, that ISLAM's 'example', is one of a clear history of always seeking to erase every thought, every honest expression of man, which attempts to critically and truthfully scrutinise the real 'form' of ISLAM.

A wicked, corrupt beast.



And when anyone asks a moslem, today, to give an example of a good, and just, benevolent Sharia society, a virtuous society based in ISLAMIC law, today, no moslem can point to such an example.

Not in all of the ISLAMIC world, is there even one example, of such a virtuous society.

And that is not surprising, because [almost always] examples of ISLAMIC and Sharia guided societies in the world today, are nests of oppression, depravity, corruption, violence, injustice, and human poverty.

Just as any rational person, would expect them to be.





+++

e.g.

Pakistan: Muslim businessman falsely accuses Christian rival of blasphemy, forces him to flee, mob sets fire to his shop
....how Pakistan's blasphemy laws are so easily abused and used to victimize non-Muslims. "Pakistan: Sialkot: Muslim businessman uses blasphemy law against Christian rival," from SperoNews, May 12:
.....Ten years ago, Gulzar Masih opened a bookstore in Druman Wala Chowk, a Sialkot neighbourhood, along with a Muslim associate Abdul Rauf. As business increased, they bought a bigger store.
   “As soon as the business started growing, Abdul Rauf wanted to take over the business. Some issues started between the partners, and ultimately in 2009 the Delight Book Shop was divided into two shops, Delight Books and New Delight Books,” said Fr Anwar Feroze, who knows the victim. “However, because Gulzar Masih had good contacts with suppliers, his business grew. Rauf was not happy with that and quarrelled with his old partner.”

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/05/pakistan-muslim-businessman-falsely-accuses-christian-rival-of-blasphemy-force-him-to-flee-set-fire.html#comment-787584



No professed 'virtue' within ISLAM, is ever a virtue.

e.g.
The "covenant of protection" for non-moslems.

More examples of how the "covenant of protection" for non-moslems is universally and systematically abused and circumvented [by moslems], so as to always keep non-moslem minorities in a state of constant fear of the moslem majority...

http://www.jihadwatch.org/blasphemy/


Google;
falsely accused of blasphemy


Google;
abuse of blasphemy laws


Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by abu_rashid on Sep 28th, 2011 at 3:12pm

freediver wrote on Sep 27th, 2011 at 9:50pm:
Abu, can you explain to us how Islam instructs Muslims to approach testimony given in court by non-Muslims?


Also covered in the Common Misconceptions thread. And I've told you that before. Why you continually ask for it to be repeated for you is beyond me.


freediver wrote on Sep 27th, 2011 at 9:50pm:
What if the non-Muslim used to be a Muslim? You can hardly claim that Islam protects non-Muslims while at the same time calling for them to be stoned to death.


What if a traitor used to be a patriot in a Western country? You could hardly claim secular democracy protects people, whilst at the same time electrocuting them to death or injecting them with toxic poisons.


freediver wrote on Sep 27th, 2011 at 9:50pm:
What 'protection' does Islam offer those who are not from an Abrahamic religion? Every time I ask this you seem to post examples of where Muslims strayed from Islam and allowed them to live but avoid explaining what Islam actually calls for.


You've lost me with this one. Where have I ever stated anything about Muslims straying from Islam? Islam, since its earliest days, ruled over an entire sub-continent of adherents to non-Abrahamic religions, there is your example.

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by abu_rashid on Sep 28th, 2011 at 4:43pm

Yadda wrote on Sep 28th, 2011 at 8:50am:
As per usual, we see....

A good, virtuous moslem [or community of moslems] in the world = = A MYTHICAL, NON EXISTENT CREATURE

A moslem in the world who is a corrupt, violent oppressor of his fellow man = = NOT A REAL MOSLEM


Since the states in question have no allegiance to Islam, why would I as a Muslim take them as an example of Islam? If Muslims setup puppet Western states in the near future, and we make them oppressive dictatorships, will you take up the position as their defender and promoter? I highly doubt it.

Here is a clear example of the West's intent when it came to moulding the current states in the Muslim world:

“[We need an] Arab facade ruled and administered under British guidance and controlled by a native Mohammedan and, as far as possible, by an Arab staff…. There should be no actual incorporation of the conquered territory in the dominions of the conqueror, but the absorption may be veiled by such constitutional fictions as a protectorate, a sphere of influence, a buffer state and so on.”— Lord Curzon [British Foreign Secretary, 1919-1924]

If anything, these "statelets" should be used as an example of what is wrong with the Western system, not the Islamic system.

But I guess it's easier to just use these strawmen you yourselves have set up.


Yadda wrote on Sep 28th, 2011 at 8:50am:
It is absolutely impossible for ISLAM to produce a harmonious, just, and stable society.


Well it did so for many centuries, certainly far more than Christianity ever achieved. I think you know deep down that when you attack Islam for some Muslims not being true to their principles, you're really having your own personal dig at Christianity, because you know full well Christians do not practice at all what they preach.

So your argument so far seems to be something like this:

"I'm not willing to consider the 1350 years of Islamic rule as a valid example of Islam, only the past 100 years of colonialist puppets states we setup in your lands and use to oppress you"....

And sadly you believe your argument is actually valid. I feel sorry for you Yadda, because you're clearly not too cluey.

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Sep 28th, 2011 at 7:24pm

Quote:
Also covered in the Common Misconceptions thread.


Actually the common misconceptions thread appears to go out of the way to avoid that particular issue.


Quote:
And I've told you that before.


And every time I bring up something you have told me before, Les accuses me of lying about what you said and you step in and encourage him and the deception he is creating.


Quote:
Why you continually ask for it to be repeated for you is beyond me.


Could it be because I get accused of lying about what you say all the time by other Muslims, and you encourage these accusations?


Quote:
What if a traitor used to be a patriot in a Western country?


I am not talking about treason Abu. I am talking about changing your religion. They are not the same thing. You however did try to pretend that Islam protects non-Muslims, while failing to mention all the options it gives Muslims to kill and harass non-Muslims.


Quote:
Where have I ever stated anything about Muslims straying from Islam?


So your response to my questions is either that you have told me before or you have not told me before - basically everything but an actual answer.


Quote:
Islam, since its earliest days, ruled over an entire sub-continent of adherents to non-Abrahamic religions, there is your example.


Abu I specifically pointed out that I wanted to know what Islam actually says on the matter, rather than an example of where Muslims may have been less strict than Islam requires. After all you yourself happily point out that the Muslims on that sub continent do not follow Islam properly. Again, you give anything but an answer.

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by abu_rashid on Sep 28th, 2011 at 9:28pm
Listen fd, I'm really not interested in engaging you in your neverending folly. Open the misconceptions thread, search the page for "witness", or better yet actually read the thread, and then get back to me. Until you've read it, I'm really not interested in re-answering this nonsense for you.


Quote:
Abu I specifically pointed out that I wanted to know what Islam actually says on the matter, rather than an example of where Muslims may have been less strict than Islam requires.


The Muslims who opened the India sub-continent were quite strict. They were from the Umayyad Khilafah, and implemented nothing but Shari'ah law.


Quote:
After all you yourself happily point out that the Muslims on that sub continent do not follow Islam properly.


I don't believe I've said anything of the kind. Besides, it was Arabs who opened the land, and implemented Shari'ah over it. So the whole claim here is moot anyway

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Sep 28th, 2011 at 9:55pm

Quote:
I don't believe I've said anything of the kind.


You criticised the Pakistanis for rejecting polygamy.


Quote:
Besides, it was Arabs who opened the land,


WTF does that mean? You are the one who introduced the subcontinent as an example. Was it 'closed' at some point in time?

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by abu_rashid on Sep 28th, 2011 at 10:42pm

freediver wrote on Sep 28th, 2011 at 9:55pm:
You criticised the Pakistanis for rejecting polygamy.


Again, I'm completely dumbfounded where you come up with this nonsense from. It's like a lucky dip with you, just never know what you're going to get.


freediver wrote on Sep 28th, 2011 at 9:55pm:

Quote:
Besides, it was Arabs who opened the land,


WTF does that mean? You are the one who introduced the subcontinent as an example. Was it 'closed' at some point in time?


Ok, I'll try this one again slowly for you...

The Arabs (the Umayyad Khilafah) brought Islam to the Indian sub-continent, and they ruled over it with Shari'ah law. You then stated this is irrelevant, because supposedly Farouk in Lahore today does things that contradict Islam, therefore all the history of Islam in the sub-Continent is inadmissable to the discussion... I then pointed out that what Farouk in Lahore does today, has nothing to do with what the Arab Umayyads did in the sub-Continent when it was ruled by Shari'ah, and then you got lost....

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by falah on Sep 29th, 2011 at 10:50am

Yadda wrote on Sep 24th, 2011 at 7:31pm:
But the fact is, that moslems are only prepared to reveal what ISLAM really is, when moslems believe that they have the ability [the political power, the 'licence'] to murder their critics, for 'insulting' ISLAM.

Otherwise, moslems, and the whole moslem community, will blatantly, and intentionally, and deceitfully, misrepresent ISLAM to non-moslems and to naive and trusting non-moslem host communities.

Moslems are unwilling to lay ISLAM bare to the scrutiny of non-moslems, because moslems know that they, moslems, are guilty people.



Scrutiny is good Yadda. So let us scrutinise what the Bible says to do with apostates:



Let us look at Deuteronomy 13:6-9:

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods, do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."



How about Deuteronomy 17:3-5:

"And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."



Those who engage in fortune telling should be executed:

"And as for a man or woman in whom there proves to be a mediumistic spirit or spirit of prediction, they should be put to death without fail.  They should pelt them to death with stones.  Their own blood is upon them." (Leviticus 20:27)



2 Chronicles 15:13:

"All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether young(children) or old, man or woman."




Maybe Jesus takes a softer approach?


"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the way of the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.  I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished.  (Matthew 5:17-18)




Matthew 15:1-9

1 Then some Pharisees and rabbis came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,
2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"
3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'
5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,'
6 he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 " 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"




Let us look at the founder of the trinitarian church, Paul, what does he have to say in the Bible:

He says every disbeliever deserves death!

Romans 1:20-32

"20.   For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21.  For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22.  Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23.  and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24.  Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
25.  They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
26.  Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
27.  In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.  Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28.  Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
29.  They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,
30.  slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;
31.  they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
32.  Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death...

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Yadda on Sep 29th, 2011 at 11:48am
falah,

So your argument is, that just like ISLAM, 'real' Christianity ALSO promotes the idea that it is lawful to righteously kill people who don't believe what Christianity believes [teaches] ???

That is your argument ?



falah,

The punishments in those OT laws that you quote, apply ONLY to believers who are breaking their covenant with God.

And the law of God DOES make a distinction between covenant keepers, and covenant breakers.

But, many of those laws do not apply to 'unbelievers'.

The only OT laws which applied to both Hebrews and 'unbelievers', were laws relating to common criminals and oppressors.

God's law [OT law] DOES NOT, and never did, 'criminalise' the unbelief of unbelievers.




+++


Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Exodus 22:21
Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him...

Exodus 23:9
Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger...

Leviticus 19:33
And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34  But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself...


Leviticus 25:47-49
[these verses clearly speak of [and reveal that it was entirely 'lawful'] for Hebrews [themselves] to become bond servants [slaves], to prosperous strangers living among the Hebrews.]

Deuteronomy 1:16
And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

Deuteronomy 10:17-19
For the LORD your God... loveth the stranger, ...Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 24:17
Thou shalt not pervert the judgment of the stranger, nor of the fatherless; nor take a widow's raiment to pledge:
18  But thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt, and the LORD thy God redeemed thee thence: therefore I command thee to do this thing.

Deuteronomy 27:19
Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger...


Micah 6:8
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?


Romans 12:9
Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.


Romans 12:18
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.


Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

In those last two verses, there is no qualification, that such entreaties applying only to 'believers'.
....like there is in the Koran.


It is ISLAM alone, which criminalises the unbelief of unbelievers.

"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves....."
Koran 48.29








Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Yadda on Sep 29th, 2011 at 11:59am

Yadda wrote on Sep 29th, 2011 at 11:48am:

The only OT laws which applied to both Hebrews and 'unbelievers', were laws relating to common criminals and oppressors.



Of course also, there were laws, that prohibited unbelievers [who were living in the camp of the Hebrews] from approaching holy objects, or from participating in religious ceremonies.





But there were also laws relating to, if 'a soul shall sin through ignorance'....
...a 'monetary' penalty [i.e. the cost of a sin offering] would be exacted from an offender.

But his/her death is NOT required, .....for a 'sin through ignorance' against God's commandment, normally requiring death, as punishment.

The God of Israel is a just and righteous God.

He will not slay a person who, 'sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD'.



Leviticus 4:1
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2  Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:
3  If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.
4  And he shall bring the bullock unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD; and shall lay his hand upon the bullock's head, and kill the bullock before the LORD.

Leviticus 4:22
When a ruler hath sinned, and done somewhat through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD his God concerning things which should not be done, and is guilty;
23  Or if his sin, wherein he hath sinned, come to his knowledge; he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a male without blemish:
24  And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the goat, and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before the LORD: it is a sin offering.

Leviticus 4:27
And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;
28  Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.
29  And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.






Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by falah on Sep 29th, 2011 at 5:47pm
you deny Jesus?

"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the way of the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.  I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished.  (Matthew 5:17-18)

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Belgarion on Sep 29th, 2011 at 5:52pm
I wonder how this bloke feels about this subject.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/christian-pastor-in-iran-faces-execution-for-apostasy/story-e6frf7jx-1226151114178

The religion of peace is showing its true colours yet again. ::)

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Sep 29th, 2011 at 7:31pm
Falah, do you also support the death penalty for apostasy under islamic law?

Abu, was Les wrong in accusing me of lying about your stance on apostasy? This is a fair question given your encouragement of him.

Full article:

Christian pastor in Iran faces execution for apostasy

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/christian-pastor-in-iran-faces-execution-for-apostasy/story-fn3dxity-1226151114178
 
THE UK's Foreign Secretary and the Archbishop of Canterbury intervened today to try to save a Christian pastor in Iran who has refused to renounce his faith to escape a death sentence.

An Iranian court gave Youcef Nadarkhani, 34, a third and final chance to avoid hanging, but he replied, "I am resolute in my faith and Christianity and have no wish to recant."

The panel of five judges will decide within a week whether to confirm his execution for apostasy, Mohammed Ali Dadkhah, his lawyer, told The (London) Times.

William Hague said he "deplored" Pastor Nadarkhani's plight, and a senior Foreign and Commonwealth Office diplomat telephoned the Iranian charge d'affaires in London to protest.

"This demonstrates the Iranian regime's continued unwillingness to abide by its constitutional and international obligations to respect religious freedom," Mr Hague said. "I pay tribute to the courage shown by Pastor Nadarkhani, who has no case to answer, and call on the Iranian authorities to overturn his sentence."

The Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, broke his silence to express "deep concern" at the sentence faced by Nadarkhani, and at the persecution of religious minorities in Iran generally.

A member of the Protestant evangelical Church of Iran and the father of two young boys, Nadarkhani held services in underground "home churches" in Rasht, a provincial town about 240km north-west of Tehran.

In 2009, he challenged the regime's insistence that all schools should teach Islam. He was arrested in October that year and has been imprisoned in Rasht ever since. He was sentenced to death for apostasy by a court in Rasht last year.

Sources said Christian clerics and advisers had been working hard behind the scenes to save the pastor's life, but had sought to avoid "megaphone diplomacy" in case it did more harm than good.

The US Department of State has also condemned the Iranian judiciary for demanding that Nadarkhani renounce his faith or face execution.

"While Iran's leaders hypocritically claim to promote tolerance, they continue to detain, imprison, harass and abuse those who simply wish to worship the faith of their choosing," it said.

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by falah on Sep 29th, 2011 at 9:47pm

freediver wrote on Sep 29th, 2011 at 7:31pm:
Falah, do you also support the death penalty for apostasy under islamic law?

Abu, was Les wrong in accusing me of lying about your stance on apostasy? This is a fair question given your encouragement of him.

Full article:

Christian pastor in Iran faces execution for apostasy

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/christian-pastor-in-iran-faces-execution-for-apostasy/story-fn3dxity-1226151114178
 
THE UK's Foreign Secretary and the Archbishop of Canterbury intervened today to try to save a Christian pastor in Iran who has refused to renounce his faith to escape a death sentence.

An Iranian court gave Youcef Nadarkhani, 34, a third and final chance to avoid hanging, but he replied, "I am resolute in my faith and Christianity and have no wish to recant."

The panel of five judges will decide within a week whether to confirm his execution for apostasy, Mohammed Ali Dadkhah, his lawyer, told The (London) Times.

William Hague said he "deplored" Pastor Nadarkhani's plight, and a senior Foreign and Commonwealth Office diplomat telephoned the Iranian charge d'affaires in London to protest.

"This demonstrates the Iranian regime's continued unwillingness to abide by its constitutional and international obligations to respect religious freedom," Mr Hague said. "I pay tribute to the courage shown by Pastor Nadarkhani, who has no case to answer, and call on the Iranian authorities to overturn his sentence."

The Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, broke his silence to express "deep concern" at the sentence faced by Nadarkhani, and at the persecution of religious minorities in Iran generally.

A member of the Protestant evangelical Church of Iran and the father of two young boys, Nadarkhani held services in underground "home churches" in Rasht, a provincial town about 240km north-west of Tehran.

In 2009, he challenged the regime's insistence that all schools should teach Islam. He was arrested in October that year and has been imprisoned in Rasht ever since. He was sentenced to death for apostasy by a court in Rasht last year.

Sources said Christian clerics and advisers had been working hard behind the scenes to save the pastor's life, but had sought to avoid "megaphone diplomacy" in case it did more harm than good.

The US Department of State has also condemned the Iranian judiciary for demanding that Nadarkhani renounce his faith or face execution.

"While Iran's leaders hypocritically claim to promote tolerance, they continue to detain, imprison, harass and abuse those who simply wish to worship the faith of their choosing," it said.


If people want to claim to be true worshippers of God Almighty, they should follow what they believe God commands them to do.


Would you prefer to refer to the Bible for guidance?

Let us look at Deuteronomy 13:6-9:

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods, do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."



How about Deuteronomy 17:3-5:

"And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."


Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Sep 29th, 2011 at 10:03pm
Falah, do you also support the death penalty for apostasy under Islamic law?

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Yadda on Sep 30th, 2011 at 9:49am

falah wrote on Sep 29th, 2011 at 9:47pm:

If people want to claim to be true worshippers of God Almighty, they should follow what they believe God commands them to do.



YES, 'they' should.



e.g.
"Thou shalt do no murder,
Thou shalt not commit adultery,
Thou shalt not steal,
Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Honour thy father and thy mother."

Matthew 19:16-19

Moslems should note the underlined verses.
[According to God's law, Mohammed was an adulterer AND a fornicator.]

All of those commandments, above, were quoted by Jesus, directly from the book(s) of the law, the Torah,
Exodus 20:12-16
Deuteronomy 5:16-20


And what was Jesus 'message' ?
#1, Love God.            Matthew 22:36-37
#2, Obey God's laws, study the scriptures.            Matthew 19:16-19, John 14:15-21, Luke 24:45
#3, Love your fellow man.            Matthew 22:39, Leviticus 19:18

Matthew 22:36
Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38  This is the first and great commandment.
39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.i
falah wrote on Sep 29th, 2011 at 9:47pm:

Would you prefer to refer to the Bible for guidance?


Let us look at Deuteronomy 13:6-9:

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods, do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."



How about Deuteronomy 17:3-5:

"And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."



falah,

You are a great one for quoting the OT.

But do you yourself, understand what those verses mean, and to whom those laws apply  ???




Those verses apply ONLY to those people who had entered into a solemn covenant with their God.





+++


Numbers 30:2
If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.



falah,

The Hebrew people, were chosen by God, to be a separate, and holy people;

Leviticus 20:24
...I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people.

Leviticus 20:26
And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.



And, it is recorded [in the books of Moses] that after being redeemed from bondage in Egypt, the Hebrew people entered into a covenant with their holy God.

Dictionary;
covenant = =
1 a solemn agreement.
2 [theology] an agreement held to be the basis of a relationship of commitment with God.


And, the agreement [consent] of the people, was recorded;

"...And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do...."
Exodus 19:5-8





As part of their covenant with God, God demanded that those children of Jacob [Israel], who were in-covenant with him, and who wilfully broke their covenant, should be executed, as covenant breakers.

Harsh?

Yes.

But any Hebrew could simply separate himself from his people [and, separate himself from his God], and go into the world, and join himself, to the world.

But he could not remain among a holy people [the children of Israel] as a covenant breaker, because the covenant with God demanded that those who wilfully broke their covenant, with God, must be killed.




BUT, God gave no person, not even his 'special' Hebrew people [Jews today], a sanction, to murder people, or to persecute anyone, because they were not Hebrews [or, Jews today].


It is clear [in studying the books of Moses] that the violent judgements in the OT [the books of Moses], were directed exclusively against;
1/ only Hebrew covenant breakers, and,
2/ those people who are wicked, oppressors, and common criminals  [i.e. anyone, everyone, could be caught in this category, dependant upon their conduct].




+++

And i have already explained ALL of this, here;

"more muslim daily madness"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1238715411/458#458




falah,

Will you express any contrition now, for having misrepresented God's law ???
/sarc off



Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Yadda on Sep 30th, 2011 at 11:32am

Yadda wrote on Sep 30th, 2011 at 9:49am:

BUT, God gave no person,
not even his 'special' Hebrew people [Jews today], a sanction, to murder people, or to persecute anyone, because they were not Hebrews [or, Jews today].



falah,

If what i have said is correct, then moslems [who kill moslem apostates] ....are murderers.

Because moslems, first compel people [through persecution] to become moslems, and then murder them when/if they renounce ISLAM.


ISLAM has always claimed to be an Abrahamic faith....

But not even God's covenant people, the Hebrew's, ever had a sanction, to murder people, or to persecute anyone, because they were not Hebrews [or, Jews today].




+++


Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Exodus 22:21
Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him...

Exodus 23:9
Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger...

Leviticus 19:33
And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34  But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself...


Leviticus 25:47-49
[these verses clearly speak of [and reveal that it was entirely 'lawful'] for Hebrews [themselves] to become bond servants [slaves], to prosperous strangers living among the Hebrews.]

Deuteronomy 1:16
And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

Deuteronomy 10:17-19
For the LORD your God... loveth the stranger, ...Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 24:17
Thou shalt not pervert the judgment of the stranger, nor of the fatherless; nor take a widow's raiment to pledge:
18  But thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt, and the LORD thy God redeemed thee thence: therefore I command thee to do this thing.

Deuteronomy 27:19
Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger...


Micah 6:8
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?


Romans 12:9
Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.


Romans 12:18
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.


Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:



+++


It was ISLAM alone, which criminalised the unbelief of 'unbelievers', and 'legitimised' their persecution....

"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves....."
Koran 48.29




Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by falah on Sep 30th, 2011 at 12:57pm

Yadda wrote on Sep 27th, 2011 at 8:36am:
Q.
When will moslems, themselves, take responsibility for what ISLAM and Sharia enable and empower [i.e. the persecution and abuse of the weak and those without political power], within Sharia jurisdictions ???

A.
Never.
Never will a moslem acknowledge, that it is the form and doctrines of ISLAM itself, which is facilitating wholesale injustices and abuses [of the weak and those without political power] within Sharia jurisdictions.



How Should Muslim of a Sharia-led Country Treat A Dhimmi (non-Muslim citizen)?

Fatwa Given by famous Saudi scholar Muhammed Salih al-Munajjid:

The duty of the Muslim towards a non-Muslim includes a number of things:

Firstly:

Missionary work, or calling him to God, may He be glorified and exalted. He should call him to God and explain to him the reality of Islam when possible, with regard to whatever issues he has knowledge about, because this is the greatest kindness that he can give to his fellow-citizens and to those whom he meets of Jews, Christians and others who may be polytheists, because the Prophet (blessings and peace of God be upon him) said: “The one who guides others to goodness will have a reward like that of the one who does it.”...

So calling him (the non-Muslim) to Islam, conveying Islam to him and being sincere towards him in that are among the best means of drawing close to God.

Secondly:  

He should not wrong him, with regard to his physical wellbeing, his wealth or his honour. If he is a dhimmi (non-Muslim living under Muslim rule), musta’man (one who is granted security in a Muslim land) or mu‘aahid (one with whose country the Muslims have a peace treaty), then he should give him his due rights, and not transgress against his wealth by stealing, betraying or deceiving, and he should not harm him physically by striking or killing him, because the fact that he is a mu‘aahid or dhimmi, or musta’man, means that he is protected by sharee‘ah.

Thirdly:

There is no reason why we should not interact with him, buying, selling, renting, hiring and so on. It is narrated in saheeh reports that the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of God be upon him) bought from disbelievers who were idol worshippers, and he bought from the Jews, and these are interactions. When he (blessings and peace of God be upon him) died, his shield was being held in collateral by a Jew for some food he had bought for his family (blessings and peace of God be upon him). [the debt to the Jew was repayed by the prophet's relatives]


These are some of the general rights between a Muslim and a disbeliever.

Another right is being a good neighbour. So if he is a neighbour, be kind to him and do not annoy him; give charity to him if he is poor, give him gifts, give him beneficial advice, because these are things that will attract him to Islam and to become Muslim; and because the neighbour has rights. The Messenger (blessings and peace of God be upon him) said: “Gabriel kept urging me to be kind to my neighbour until I thought that he would make him my heir.” [hadith found in the two most pre-eminent books of haderth; Bukhari & Muslim]. If the neighbour is a disbeliever, he still has the rights of a neighbour; if he is both a relative and a disbeliever, then he has two rights: the rights of a neighbour and the rights of a relative.

One of the rights of the neighbour is that you should give him charity...if he is poor, because God says (interpretation of the meaning): “God does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, God loves those who deal with equity” [al-Mumtahanah 60:8]. According to the authentic hadeeth narrated from Asma’ bint Abi Bakr...her mother, who was a polytheist, visited upon her during the truce between the Prophet (blessings and peace of God be upon him) and the people of Makkah, seeking help. Asma’ asked the Prophet (blessings and peace of God be upon him) for permission - should she uphold ties of kinship with her? The Prophet (blessings and peace of God be upon him) said: “Uphold ties of kinship with her.”


Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Yadda on Sep 30th, 2011 at 1:22pm

falah wrote on Sep 30th, 2011 at 12:57pm:

Yadda wrote on Sep 27th, 2011 at 8:36am:
Q.
When will moslems, themselves, take responsibility for what ISLAM and Sharia enable and empower [i.e. the persecution and abuse of the weak and those without political power], within Sharia jurisdictions ???

A.
Never.
Never will a moslem acknowledge, that it is the form and doctrines of ISLAM itself, which is facilitating wholesale injustices and abuses [of the weak and those without political power] within Sharia jurisdictions.



How Should Muslim of a Sharia-led Country Treat A Dhimmi (non-Muslim citizen)?

Fatwa Given by famous Saudi scholar Muhammed Salih al-Munajjid:

The duty of the Muslim towards a non-Muslim includes a number of things:

Firstly:

Missionary work, or calling him to God, may He be glorified and exalted. He should call him to God and explain to him the reality of Islam when possible, with regard to whatever issues he has knowledge about, because this is the greatest kindness that he can give to his fellow-citizens and to those whom he meets of Jews, Christians and others who may be polytheists, because the Prophet (blessings and peace of God be upon him) said: “The one who guides others to goodness will have a reward like that of the one who does it.”...

So calling him (the non-Muslim) to Islam, conveying Islam to him and being sincere towards him in that are among the best means of drawing close to God.

Secondly:  

He should not wrong him, with regard to his physical wellbeing, his wealth or his honour. If he is a dhimmi (non-Muslim living under Muslim rule), musta’man (one who is granted security in a Muslim land) or mu‘aahid (one with whose country the Muslims have a peace treaty), then he should give him his due rights, and not transgress against his wealth by stealing, betraying or deceiving, and he should not harm him physically by striking or killing him, because the fact that he is a mu‘aahid or dhimmi, or musta’man, means that he is protected by sharee‘ah.

Thirdly:

There is no reason why we should not interact with him, buying, selling, renting, hiring and so on. It is narrated in saheeh reports that the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of God be upon him) bought from disbelievers who were idol worshippers, and he bought from the Jews, and these are interactions. When he (blessings and peace of God be upon him) died, his shield was being held in collateral by a Jew for some food he had bought for his family (blessings and peace of God be upon him). [the debt to the Jew was repayed by the prophet's relatives]


These are some of the general rights between a Muslim and a disbeliever.

Another right is being a good neighbour. So if he is a neighbour, be kind to him and do not annoy him; give charity to him if he is poor, give him gifts, give him beneficial advice, because these are things that will attract him to Islam and to become Muslim; and because the neighbour has rights. The Messenger (blessings and peace of God be upon him) said: “Gabriel kept urging me to be kind to my neighbour until I thought that he would make him my heir.” [hadith found in the two most pre-eminent books of haderth; Bukhari & Muslim]. If the neighbour is a disbeliever, he still has the rights of a neighbour; if he is both a relative and a disbeliever, then he has two rights: the rights of a neighbour and the rights of a relative.

One of the rights of the neighbour is that you should give him charity...if he is poor, because God says (interpretation of the meaning): “God does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, God loves those who deal with equity” [al-Mumtahanah 60:8]. According to the authentic hadeeth narrated from Asma’ bint Abi Bakr...her mother, who was a polytheist, visited upon her during the truce between the Prophet (blessings and peace of God be upon him) and the people of Makkah, seeking help. Asma’ asked the Prophet (blessings and peace of God be upon him) for permission - should she uphold ties of kinship with her? The Prophet (blessings and peace of God be upon him) said: “Uphold ties of kinship with her.”




LIARS, murderers,    ....moslems.


Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Yadda on Sep 30th, 2011 at 1:50pm

Yadda wrote on Sep 30th, 2011 at 1:22pm:

falah wrote on Sep 30th, 2011 at 12:57pm:

How Should Muslim of a Sharia-led Country Treat A Dhimmi (non-Muslim citizen)?


Fatwa Given by famous Saudi scholar Muhammed Salih al-Munajjid:

The duty of the Muslim towards a non-Muslim includes a number of things:

Firstly:




LIARS, murderers,    ....moslems.




Google;
saudi arabia beheading christian


Google;
saudi arabia persecutes christians


Google;
saudi arabia display of bible christians







LIARS, murderers,    ....moslems.





Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by falah on Sep 30th, 2011 at 2:44pm
One of the greatest experts on Islamic law, Shihab al-Din al-Qarafi, wrote 700 years ago in Egypt:

“It is the responsibility of the Muslims to the People of the Dhimma to care for their weak, fulfil the needs of the poor, feed the hungry, provide clothes, address them politely, and even tolerate their harm even if it was from a neighbour, even though the Muslim would have an upper hand. The Muslims must also advise them sincerely on their affairs and protect them against anyone who tries to hurt them or their family, steal their wealth, or violates their rights.”


Prophet Muhammed صلى الله عليه وسلم is reported to have said: "The one who kills a Mu'ahid (people with whom the State has treaties) without right he will not smell the fragrance of heaven even if its smell was forty years travelling distance." [Ahmed]


Let us look at how the Jews in Islamic Spain flourished in a jewish golden age.

When the Christians expelled the Jews from Spain in the the 15th century, they were welcomed to the Ottoman Caliphate and contributed much to the state as they will do in the future. Jewish physicians from the school of Salanca were employed in the service of the Caliph, and in many places glass making and metalworking were Jewish monopolies. With their knowledge of foreign languages they were the greatest competitors of the Venetian traders.

All this led the Ottoman Caliph Sultan Bajazet II, to say with reference to the expulsion of the Jews by Ferdinand, the Catholic King of Spain, “How can you call this Ferdinand ‘wise' - he who has impoverished his dominions in order to enrich mine?”

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by falah on Sep 30th, 2011 at 2:46pm
Scholarly perspective of life in Islamic Spain

The Muslim invasion, and subsequent administration of Iberia, freed the major Spanish population of Jews from Visigothic [Christian] oppression.  It was said that immediately after the invasion, the Jewish population of Toledo "opened the gates" of the city, welcoming the North African Muslims (Wexler 218).  Though ruthless fighters, the Moors were very just. They gave the Goth Spaniards an opportunity to surrender each of their provinces, to which most capitulated.

"It is a common misapprehension that the holy war meant that the Muslims gave their opponents a choice 'between Islam and the sword'. This was sometimes the case, but only when the opponents were polytheist and idol-worshippers. For Jews, Christians, and other 'People of the Book'.there was a third possibility, they might become a 'protected group', paying a tax or tribute to the Muslims but enjoying internal autonomy" (Watt 144).

Even in those early days, the Moors knew and practiced the principles of chivalry.  They had already won the title to Knightliness which many centuries later compelled the victorious Spaniards to addressed them as "Knights of Granada, Gentleman, albeit Moors"  (Lane-Poole 26)...

...Within a century of their activity, the Moors, with assistance of the Jews, had developed a civilization based in Cordoba that surpassed that of any in Europe; it was known as Al-Andalus.  At the end of the eighth century, Al-Andalus was the most populous, cultured, and industrious land of all Europe, remaining so for centuries.  During this prosperous period, trade with the outside world was unrivaled.  It was during this time of economic expansion, the Jews, who had been virtually eliminated from the peninsula in the seventh century by the Christians, grew once more in numbers and flourished.  Hume wrote in his book "Spanish People": "Side by side with the new rulers lived the Christians and Jews in peace. The latter rich with commerce and industry were content to let the memory of their oppression by the priest-ridden Goths sleep" (Hume 23).

...The occupation of Iberia by the Moors was a welcome occurrence for a well pummeled and remaining Jewish population.  Of course the Muslims were not completely tolerant, but they were more tolerant than the rulers of the previous administration. Under the ruling Caliph, the Jews were able to preserve their rites and traditions.  Peaceful coexistence led to their economic and social expansion.  Their status was that of Dhimmis, non-Muslims living in a land governed by Muslims.  The Jews had limited autonomy, but full rights to practice their religion, as well as full protection by their Muslim rulers...

...From the second half of the eighth century to the end of the eleventh century Jewish life flourished while contributing greatly to scholarship.  A translating program was established in Toledo, using Jews as interpreters. There they translated the Arabic books into romance languages, as well as Greek and Hebrew texts into Arabic.  This included many major works of Greek science and philosophy.  Jews studied and contributed to mathematics, medicine, botany, geography, poetry, and philosophy.  It was at this time that the study of Medicine expanded to produce a large number of exceptional Jewish physicians.  Islam had its sway over Jewish cultural life too.  In literature, and the arts, the Muslim influence on the Jews is enormous.  Though written in non-Islamic language and script, medieval Hebrew poetry, and much of the prose literature, belong to the same cultural world as Arabic and other literatures of Islam (Lewis 81).  In the Caliphate of Cordoba [the geographical zenith of Islamic life in Al-Andalus], the Jewish element became increasingly important, reaching its peak in the tenth century  (Diaz-Mas 3).  Jews lived among themselves in a walled area known as the aljama (Jewish quarter). There they lived among their own administration, and managed their own communal affairs (Epstein 1).  There the Jewish community had their own legal court known as the Beit Din.  This court, with Rabbis as Judges, would render both religious and civil legal opinions pertaining to Jewish affairs inside the aljama.  In the Beit Din the Jews were allowed to settle their own disputes.  This of course was positive for the them;  but it was also positive for the Muslims to, as it decreased the work load of the Islamic courts.

The influence Islamic culture injected into Jewish life was significant.  Jews accepted many customs and traditions of the Moors and interweaved them into their daily life.  The Arabic language, instead of Spanish and Hebrew, was used for prayers.  Ceremoniously washing of the hands and feet, which is an Islamic custom, became adopted by Jews before entering Synagogues.  Moreover, Jewish music was sung to the tune of old Arabic melodies.  Jews adopted the clothing style of their Moorish neighbors...

Diaz-Mas, Paloma. Sephardim: The Jews from Spain. Chicago.

Epstein, Isidore. Studies in the Communal Life of the Jews of Spain.

Hume, Martin A. S. The Spanish People: Their Origin, Growth and Influence. New York

Lane-Poole, Stanley. The Story of the Moors in Spain. Baltimore, MD:

Watt, Montgomery. A History of Islamic Spain.

http://www.sephardicstudies.org/islam.html

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by falah on Sep 30th, 2011 at 3:07pm
The ornament of the world:
how Muslims, Jews, and Christians created a culture of tolerance in medieval Spain


María Rosa Menocal

http://bks3.books.google.com/books?id=4dxbqEmU-OkC&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1

Undoing the familiar notion of the Middle Ages as a period of religious persecution and intellectual stagnation, Maria Menocal now brings us a portrait of a medieval culture where literature, science, and tolerance flourished for 500 years.

The story begins as a young prince in exile -- the last heir to an Islamic dynasty -- founds a new kingdom on the Iberian peninsula: al-Andalus. Combining the best of what Muslim, Jewish, and Christian cultures had to offer, al-Andalus and its successors influenced the rest of Europe in dramatic ways, from the death of liturgical Latin and the spread of secular poetry, to remarkable feats in architecture, science, and technology. The glory of the Andalusian kingdoms endured until the Renaissance, when Christian monarchs forcibly converted, executed, or expelled non-Catholics from Spain. In this wonderful book, we can finally explore the lost history whose legacy is still with us in countless ways.


Menocal (R. Selden Rose Professor of Spanish and Portuguese and director of Special Programs in the Humanities, Yale Univ.) has previously published The Arabic Role in Medieval Literary History: A Forgotten Heritage, as well as other books on the role of the vernacular in medieval cultures. This book certainly reflects her deep scholarship. Menocal offers persuasive evidence that the Renaissance was strongly foreshadowed by the intellectual climate of Spain in the preceding centuries, starting in 783 with the founding of Andalusia by Abd al-Rahman, an Umayyad from Syria. The culture created was receptive to intellectual pursuits not allowed in the rest of Europe for several centuries, including the creation of impressive libraries and the study and translation of Classical authors. Menocal claims that this environment was largely a result of the tolerance shown by this ruler and his successors toward Christians and Jews and their cultures...  




Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Yadda on Sep 30th, 2011 at 3:14pm

falah wrote on Sep 30th, 2011 at 2:44pm:

......Let us look at how the Jews in Islamic Spain flourished in a jewish golden age.




ISLAM is a lie, and the truth is killing it.



Google;
taqiyya muslim lying for islam


Google;
taqiyya - the muslim doctrine of deceit


Google;
we smile to the face "while our hearts curse them"


Google;
How Taqiyya Alters Islam's Rules of War




Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by falah on Sep 30th, 2011 at 3:20pm

Yadda wrote on Sep 30th, 2011 at 3:14pm:

falah wrote on Sep 30th, 2011 at 2:44pm:

......Let us look at how the Jews in Islamic Spain flourished in a jewish golden age.




ISLAM is a lie, and the truth is killing it.



Google;
taqiyya muslim lying for islam



Paloma Diaz-Mas, Isidore Epstein, Martin Hume, Stanley Lane-Poole, Montgomery Watt...they are all lying Muslims are they Yadda?

What about the Jewish website http://www.sephardicstudies.org/islam.html  set up by lying Muslims too was it Yadda?

You live in a dark delusionary world Yadda. I urge you to seek psychiatric help to cure your delusional paranoia. I hope you get the treatment you need.

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Yadda on Sep 30th, 2011 at 3:34pm

falah wrote on Sep 30th, 2011 at 3:20pm:

Yadda wrote on Sep 30th, 2011 at 3:14pm:

falah wrote on Sep 30th, 2011 at 2:44pm:

......Let us look at how the Jews in Islamic Spain flourished in a jewish golden age.




ISLAM is a lie, and the truth is killing it.



Google;
taqiyya muslim lying for islam



Paloma Diaz-Mas, Isidore Epstein, Martin Hume, Stanley Lane-Poole, Montgomery Watt...they are all lying Muslims are they Yadda?

What about the Jewish website http://www.sephardicstudies.org/islam.html  set up by lying Muslims too was it Yadda?

You live in a dark delusionary world Yadda. I urge you to seek psychiatric help to cure your delusional paranoia. I hope you get the treatment you need.



Dhimmis being 'taken in' by ISLAMIST lies, doesn't make it true.

And today, many, many, dhimmi 'intellectuals' in Western academia, have sold their souls, to the Arab petro-dollar.





"He that serves God for money, will serve the Devil for better wages."
Sir Roger L’Estrange



Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by falah on Sep 30th, 2011 at 6:15pm

Yadda wrote on Sep 30th, 2011 at 3:34pm:
Dhimmis being 'taken in' by ISLAMIST lies, doesn't make it true.

And today, many, many, dhimmi 'intellectuals' in Western academia, have sold their souls, to the Arab petro-dollar.


One of the books referenced was written in 1901 - about 30 years before oil was even discovered in Arabia!

Anyway, I suspect that any scholar who does not support your delusional paranoid view will be described as a "dhimmi".

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Sep 30th, 2011 at 6:33pm
Falah, do you also support the death penalty for apostasy under Islamic law?

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by falah on Oct 1st, 2011 at 3:30am

freediver wrote on Sep 30th, 2011 at 6:33pm:
Falah, do you also support the death penalty for apostasy under Islamic law?


That is a bit hypothetical is it not? I do not live in a country run according to Islamic law, so my opinion of certain elements seem to be hardly relevant.

I suggest examining the issue of the apostate. Is there anything wrong with him?

Clearly the answer is yes. An apostate has rejected pure Islamic monotheism.

We are presented with two possibilities. Either the apostate is mentally inadequate, which makes him innocent in Islamic law, or he is a committed polytheist.

The polytheist disrespects God, and therefore earns the reward of the Hellfire. What could be worse for a human than going to the Hellfire?

The apostate is cursed by God for choosing polytheism.

The apostate is particularly harmful to the monotheistic society because he propagates a message of polytheism - if a disbeliever was not interested in propagation of polytheism, then he would either flee the Islamic state or remain quiet.

So the apostate is one who would call people to the Hellfire, and there is nothing worse that can happen to people than going to Hell. Therefore the apostate is a dangerous individual who harms his commuinity.

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Oct 1st, 2011 at 7:56am

Quote:
so my opinion of certain elements seem to be hardly relevant


It matters to me. I am basically asking you what Islamic law is on the matter - according to you. Not whether you find it palatable.


Quote:
We are presented with two possibilities. Either the apostate is mentally inadequate, which makes him innocent in Islamic law, or he is a committed polytheist.


Are they really the only two you can think of?


Quote:
Therefore the apostate is a dangerous individual who harms his commuinity.


Should he be stoned to death?

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by falah on Oct 1st, 2011 at 12:49pm

freediver wrote on Oct 1st, 2011 at 7:56am:
Are they really the only two you can think of?

Well, actually there is also the ignorant person for whom it is easy for the devil to put doubt in his heart. Scholars of Islam have said that such a person should have people learned in the religion dispel his doubts for him through reasoning, and using Islamic evidence.

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Oct 1st, 2011 at 12:55pm
And if he still rejects Islam? Death by stoning?

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Jan 26th, 2012 at 9:46pm
An old thread on this topic:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1222521579

Here is an interesting argument made by Abu - rather than simply giving the same punishment (death by stoning) for apostasy and treason, Abu actually thinks that apostasy and treason are the same thing. That is, if you change your mind about religion, that is treason, despite the fact that Islam supposedly tolerates non-Muslims within that nation.


abu_rashid wrote on Jan 26th, 2012 at 8:28pm:
fd, as you've been informed on more than one occasion, Islam is a nation (ummah), and abandoning it is indeed treason.


This leads to the obvious question, does believing something make it true? For example, if I believed that rejecting my religion is the same as having sex with dogs, does that mean that people are actually comitting bestiality by rejecting my religion? Or does it just mean that I am confused?

Why is Abu's argument about treason any different?

Another interesting argument:


abu_rashid wrote on Jan 26th, 2012 at 2:07pm:
Unlike your flippant faith, Islam is a rock solid belief system, those who enter it usually do so with very firm conviction in its truthfulness. That's why it does not bother us what the penalty is for committing treason against it, since we have no intention to do so.


If it is so rock solid, why the need for the death penalty? Surely the death penalty is the exact opposite - proof that the religion is on shaky ground and cannot survive without some kind of coercion. If it really was so rock solid, Islam would be genuine about 'no compulsion in religion' rather than the hypocritical lip service it gives the concept.

It effectively creates a faith ratchet. People can convert to Islam, but then they are stuck forever. Apparently their offspring are too, though Abu has been pretty shy about clarifying this. This obviously played a big part in the spread of the empire as it is a pretty good way of gluing a society together - killing anyone who does not adopt the nation with religious devotion. It is why the nation could not adapt in the same way other empires (eg the British and its offspring) have. The only way out was complete collapse. The modern middle east is the waste that was left behind, and no-one can figure out what to do with it.

If you don't believe me, ask Abu whether Shites are apostates, and you will get an idea of the mess that Islam left behind.

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Soren on Jan 26th, 2012 at 10:00pm
Islam is super-rational, as long as you accept its premises. The premises are not to be questioned, on penalty of death.
This is why it is impossible to have a rational argument with muslims - we have fundamentally different, irreconcilable premises.


Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Feb 17th, 2012 at 10:18pm

falah wrote on Feb 17th, 2012 at 5:37pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 17th, 2012 at 8:15am:

falah wrote on Feb 6th, 2012 at 1:09pm:
Who made up the Universal Declaration of human rights? God or imperfect humans? Who has the right to make laws the Creator or the Created?

Does the Bible conform to the Universal Declaration of human rights?

What is the punishment for apostasy in the Bible?


Falah, do you reject the notion of 'no compulsion in religion'?

Nobody should be forced to join any religion. Of course, atheist leaders have shown that they believe nobody should be allowed to have any religion.


If a Muslim rejects Islam and other Muslims threaten to stone him to death if he does not revert back to Islam, does that count as forcing, or would you consider that 'gentle encouragement'?

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by falah on Feb 18th, 2012 at 12:36pm

freediver wrote on Feb 17th, 2012 at 10:18pm:

falah wrote on Feb 17th, 2012 at 5:37pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 17th, 2012 at 8:15am:

falah wrote on Feb 6th, 2012 at 1:09pm:
Who made up the Universal Declaration of human rights? God or imperfect humans? Who has the right to make laws the Creator or the Created?

Does the Bible conform to the Universal Declaration of human rights?

What is the punishment for apostasy in the Bible?


Falah, do you reject the notion of 'no compulsion in religion'?

Nobody should be forced to join any religion. Of course, atheist leaders have shown that they believe nobody should be allowed to have any religion.


If a Muslim rejects Islam and other Muslims threaten to stone him to death if he does not revert back to Islam, does that count as forcing, or would you consider that 'gentle encouragement'?

If a person wants to leave Islam, they are free to so as long as they leave the Islamic state beforehand.

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Feb 18th, 2012 at 12:42pm
And if they don't?

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on May 2nd, 2012 at 9:05pm
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1335791303/18#18

Falah can you please clarify why only some Shites are considered apostates? Is it being a Shite that makes them an apostate, or something else?

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Soren on May 2nd, 2012 at 10:04pm

freediver wrote on Feb 18th, 2012 at 12:42pm:
And if they don't?

Then its treason and death.


Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Soren on May 2nd, 2012 at 10:09pm
Falah
Quote:
Nobody should be forced to join any religion.


Under the caliphate, nobody will be forced to join but those who don't submit to Mohamed will need to pay extra tax and will be treated as second class citizens. They will have their rights. Just not the same rights as Muslims.




Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Soren on May 3rd, 2012 at 11:44pm

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by bludger on May 4th, 2012 at 11:45am
See how religion stuffs everything up?

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on May 12th, 2012 at 10:16am
Abu do you think Shites are apostates?

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Aug 7th, 2012 at 10:05pm
Abu has been at it again:


abu_rashid wrote on Aug 7th, 2012 at 9:04pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 7th, 2012 at 6:22pm:
Abu wants to kill apostates.


You've made this lying accusation so many times fd, yet never once have you produced a single quote from me stating anything like this.

Either you're clairvoyant, or you're speaking outta yer rectum.

You seriously have no shame.



abu_rashid wrote on Oct 9th, 2008 at 7:44pm:

Quote:
What is that again? I think there was some abiguity last time we touched on that.


Not from me, perhaps with Malik. Apostasy is a capital offense.



abu_rashid wrote on Oct 9th, 2008 at 7:12pm:

Quote:
but you especially object to them talking in a gay way, having their own culture, and riding round on floats with their arse cheeks hanging out?


Islamically, someone who'd taken it this far would've apostasised and the Islamic ruling for apostasy would now apply to him.



abu_rashid wrote on Feb 8th, 2009 at 11:04pm:

Quote:
not killing apostates etc


As has been mentioned above, death penalty is the issue you should be discussing. Also treason (which is what apostasy is according to Islam) *IS* a capital offence in many 'modern' states.



abu_rashid wrote on Oct 27th, 2008 at 10:02pm:

Quote:
Abu would you kill peope like them if the appropriate situation arose - like a Caliphate?


Since I'd probably never consider state-executioner as a good career path, I highly doubt it.


Apparently it is propaganda to even distinguish between apostasy and treason:


abu_rashid wrote on Sep 17th, 2011 at 9:09pm:
2) Apostasy (or treason as it's called when not trying to make propaganda) has also been dealt with on numerous occasions, please change the record.


Here is an interesting one where Abu appears to claim that Shites are not apostates. Have you changed your mind Abu?


abu_rashid wrote on Oct 10th, 2008 at 1:38pm:
So if you have a quote from me claiming Shi'a are apostates, bring it. If you don't, cut the crap.



Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by bobbythebat1 on Aug 7th, 2012 at 10:44pm

Quote:
What if a traitor used to be a patriot in a Western country? You could hardly claim secular democracy protects people, whilst at the same time electrocuting them to death or injecting them with toxic poisons.


So Abu would like to kill people who were brought up/brainwashed into Islam
& then reject it when they realise it's nonsense.


Abu - all religion is nonsense.
Religion is dangerous & will destroy the whole world - if we let it.
There is no heaven or hell.
It's a dogma taught to  kids when they are young.

Remember the Inquisition?
600 years of unspeakable torture.

We have grown up in the west but you haven't.


Inquisition_9_Anal_Torture_004.jpg (90 KB | 122 )

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by bobbythebat1 on Aug 7th, 2012 at 11:03pm
More religious results:

Inquisition_13_Burning_007.jpg (30 KB | 117 )

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by thelastnail on Aug 7th, 2012 at 11:23pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 7th, 2012 at 10:44pm:

Quote:
What if a traitor used to be a patriot in a Western country? You could hardly claim secular democracy protects people, whilst at the same time electrocuting them to death or injecting them with toxic poisons.


So Abu would like to kill people who were brought up/brainwashed into Islam
& then reject it when they realise it's nonsense.


Abu - all religion is nonsense.
Religion is dangerous & will destroy the whole world - if we let it.
There is no heaven or hell.
It's a dogma taught to  kids when they are young.

Remember the Inquisition?
600 years of unspeakable torture.

We have grown up in the west but you haven't.


The Muslims are going through what the christians did 600 years ago. Maybe in 600 years time they will finally realise that they had been hoodwinked by professional scammers :(

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Aug 8th, 2012 at 8:37am
It seems to work on some people:


Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 8th, 2012 at 6:19am:

Quote:
Abu wants the death penalty for apostasy.


He says he doesnt. Why cant you accept what he says?

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Baronvonrort on Aug 9th, 2012 at 5:17pm

freediver wrote on Aug 8th, 2012 at 8:37am:
It seems to work on some people:


Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 8th, 2012 at 6:19am:

Quote:
Abu wants the death penalty for apostasy.


He says he doesnt. Why cant you accept what he says?


They chop your head off for apostasy in Saudi Arabia,they hang you in Iran

http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/811/apostasy


Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Spot of Borg on Aug 10th, 2012 at 5:36am
Well not in australia. humans are arseholes. They will use violence anytime they can. In some countries theres no control and psychos can do whatever they like in the name of thier religion or anything else. You know there are other countries with problems.

Top 6 The Most Severe Human Rights Violations Around the World

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Top-6-The-Most-Severe-Human-Right-Violations-Around-the-World-63112.shtml

Those are not all muslim countries. Also i bet every one of them uses their religion as an excuse. What can we do? Should we invade all these countries and kill ppl for their own good? We (the west) are just as bad but we kill others rather than ourselves.

SOB
freedom.jpg (17 KB | 75 )

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Aug 10th, 2012 at 8:29am

Quote:
Those are not all muslim countries. Also i bet every one of them uses their religion as an excuse. What can we do?


Apparently you think we should delude ourselves into thinking those religious extremists are actually mainstream people who want freedom and democracy, so that you can continue with your meaningless generalisations about all religions being equal.

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Aug 10th, 2012 at 8:30am

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 10th, 2012 at 6:12am:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 12:43am:
Your treason argument is a strawman fallacy.


No it is not. The text which deals with capital punishment for apostasy makes it clear it's about committing treason against the nation/community.



abu_rashid wrote on Aug 10th, 2012 at 6:12am:
I am a Muslim, not a moderate nor an extremist, I reject both of these labels. Islamic law does indeed mandate capital punishment for a treasonous apostate


Abu that is a bit misleading (at best) don't you think? You also appear to think that apostasy is treason. For example the gay people you said would be stoned to death for apostasy in the quotes above are obviously not committing treason by the common meaning of the word - only by the alternate reality of Islam in which apostasy is treason by definition.


abu_rashid wrote on Aug 10th, 2012 at 6:12am:
but as an individual that law places no obligation whatsoever upon me. Just as America's capital punishments for certain kinds of robberies does not mandate that each individual American is responsible for implementing said punishment from their own judgement.


Again, that is a bit misleading (at best) don't you think? It is a bit like your claim that Islam proscribes jobs as state executioner rather than making it a family outing where everyone is encouraged to join in. Can you explain how Islam proscribes the execution of the death penalty? Would you actually participate, or would you run and hide when faced with the reality of how brutal your beliefs are?

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Spot of Borg on Aug 10th, 2012 at 9:32am

freediver wrote on Aug 10th, 2012 at 8:29am:

Quote:
Those are not all muslim countries. Also i bet every one of them uses their religion as an excuse. What can we do?


Apparently you think we should delude ourselves into thinking those religious extremists are actually mainstream people who want freedom and democracy, so that you can continue with your meaningless generalisations about all religions being equal.


What? Geez

equally absurd. . . .

SOB

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Spot of Borg on Aug 10th, 2012 at 9:32am

freediver wrote on Aug 10th, 2012 at 8:29am:

Quote:
Those are not all muslim countries. Also i bet every one of them uses their religion as an excuse. What can we do?


Apparently you think we should delude ourselves into thinking those religious extremists are actually mainstream people who want freedom and democracy, so that you can continue with your meaningless generalisations about all religions being equal.


What? Geez

equally absurd. . . .

SOB

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Aug 10th, 2012 at 12:27pm
You have certainly deluded yourself when it comes to Abu. You refused to believe it when he said outright that he wants these things. Then when you saw him post his silly deflections where he refused to even discuss what he wants on the grounds that he is impotent to achieve it, you took this to mean that he does not actually want it.

Who is to say that all the generalisations you like to make are not merely an accumulation of many of these convenient little self delusions?

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Spot of Borg on Aug 10th, 2012 at 2:13pm

freediver wrote on Aug 10th, 2012 at 12:27pm:
You have certainly deluded yourself when it comes to Abu. You refused to believe it when he said outright that he wants these things. Then when you saw him post his silly deflections where he refused to even discuss what he wants on the grounds that he is impotent to achieve it, you took this to mean that he does not actually want it.

Who is to say that all the generalisations you like to make are not merely an accumulation of many of these convenient little self delusions?


Go back and look @ the posts. He said he did not want to kill anyone.

SOB

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Aug 10th, 2012 at 6:17pm
Think about it spot. He openly admits to supporting the death penalty for apostasy. He claims this is irrelevant unless he gets a job as the executioner. But tell me, if it was your head on the chopping block, would it matter to you whether Abu was wielding the axe or merely cheering from the sidelines? Even that is being generous to Abu, as he also believes that stoning someone to death is a community event that everyone should be encouraged to participate in, to make it as slow and painful as possible for the victim.

Why are you parroting his idiotic deflections? Can you really not tell the difference between supporting the death penalty for apostasy and personally wielding the axe? Or do you simply not care, despite your claims to oppose this crap?

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Spot of Borg on Aug 10th, 2012 at 6:34pm

freediver wrote on Aug 10th, 2012 at 6:17pm:
Think about it spot. He openly admits to supporting the death penalty for apostasy. He claims this is irrelevant unless he gets a job as the executioner. But tell me, if it was your head on the chopping block, would it matter to you whether Abu was wielding the axe or merely cheering from the sidelines? Even that is being generous to Abu, as he also believes that stoning someone to death is a community event that everyone should be encouraged to participate in, to make it as slow and painful as possible for the victim.

Why are you parroting his idiotic deflections? Can you really not tell the difference between supporting the death penalty for apostasy and personally wielding the axe? Or do you simply not care, despite your claims to oppose this crap?


Quit being such a dick freediver. Its not my job to friggin defend abu. You have problems with him you have it out with him and ill correct you every time you say mainstream muslims are terrorists.

SOB

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Saul Goodman on Aug 10th, 2012 at 6:42pm

freediver wrote on Aug 10th, 2012 at 6:17pm:
Think about it spot. He openly admits to supporting the death penalty for apostasy. He claims this is irrelevant unless he gets a job as the executioner. But tell me, if it was your head on the chopping block, would it matter to you whether Abu was wielding the axe or merely cheering from the sidelines? Even that is being generous to Abu, as he also believes that stoning someone to death is a community event that everyone should be encouraged to participate in, to make it as slow and painful as possible for the victim.

Why are you parroting his idiotic deflections? Can you really not tell the difference between supporting the death penalty for apostasy and personally wielding the axe? Or do you simply not care, despite your claims to oppose this crap?

I could understand you if you were just as outraged by similar things done or supported by your own people.. untill that its hard to take your criticisms seriously even if they are right.. stop thinking who and start thinking what

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Aug 10th, 2012 at 6:45pm

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 10th, 2012 at 6:34pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 10th, 2012 at 6:17pm:
Think about it spot. He openly admits to supporting the death penalty for apostasy. He claims this is irrelevant unless he gets a job as the executioner. But tell me, if it was your head on the chopping block, would it matter to you whether Abu was wielding the axe or merely cheering from the sidelines? Even that is being generous to Abu, as he also believes that stoning someone to death is a community event that everyone should be encouraged to participate in, to make it as slow and painful as possible for the victim.

Why are you parroting his idiotic deflections? Can you really not tell the difference between supporting the death penalty for apostasy and personally wielding the axe? Or do you simply not care, despite your claims to oppose this crap?


Quit being such a dick freediver. Its not my job to friggin defend abu. You have problems with him you have it out with him and ill correct you every time you say mainstream muslims are terrorists.

SOB


I have never actually said that Spot. That hasn't stopped you butting in at every opportunity. I am not asking you to defend him. I am asking you to be honest about what he wants rather than constantly lying about it.

I think we will have to start with something very simple for you: do you concede that Abu wants the death penalty for apostasy? I can quote him for you if you are unsure.


Quote:
I could understand you if you were just as outraged by similar things done or supported by your own people..


Who exactly are 'my people' and when did they stone someone to death? Abu supports the death penalty for apostasy. I don't. Let Abu answer for his beliefs and let me answer for mine.

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Aug 10th, 2012 at 6:59pm
I am not 'being a dick' spot. I am trying to explain some incredibly simple concepts to you. For some reason, despite explaining them 100 times, you are still oblivious to them. The most obvious one is the difference between what someone wants and what they are capable of achieving. Either you are incapable of understanding the difference, or for some reason you are deliberately lying about what Abu wants. He wants the death penalty for apostasy. He wants Shariah law for Australia. He wants to destroy democracy. He wants to deny people basic freedom and human rights. But for some reason all he has to do is point out that he is incapable of achieving these changes and you jump up and down like a lapdog telling everyone that he does not even want it. Why is it so hard for you to understand? Or do you not want to understand?

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Saul Goodman on Aug 10th, 2012 at 7:08pm

Quote:
Who exactly are 'my people' and when did they stone someone to death? Abu supports the death penalty for apostasy. I don't. Let Abu answer for his beliefs and let me answer for mine
If thats the best response you have then dont expect free thinking people to take you seriously
Quote:
He wants to destroy democracy.
You are the one destroying democracy by attacking for expressing his beliefs
Quote:
human rights.
when did you start giving a crap about them???

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Aug 10th, 2012 at 7:34pm

Quote:
If thats the best response you have then dont expect free thinking people to take you seriously


It was not a response so much as a 'WTF are you on about'?


Quote:
You are the one destroying democracy by attacking for expressing his beliefs


So democracy is all about people not being criticised for wanting the death penalty for apostasy?


Quote:
when did you start giving a crap about them?


I had previously taken it for granted that most people support them, so they barely entered discussion. Abu and a succession of other Muslims changed all that. Then we had spot follow this up by pretending it's fine to oppose human rights so long as you are not going to overthrow the government tomorrow.

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Saul Goodman on Aug 10th, 2012 at 8:00pm

freediver wrote on Aug 10th, 2012 at 7:34pm:

Quote:
If thats the best response you have then dont expect free thinking people to take you seriously


It was not a response so much as a 'WTF are you on about'?

[quote]You are the one destroying democracy by attacking for expressing his beliefs


So democracy is all about people not being criticised for wanting the death penalty for apostasy?


Quote:
when did you start giving a crap about them?


I had previously taken it for granted that most people support them, so they barely entered discussion. Abu and a succession of other Muslims changed all that. Then we had spot follow this up by pretending it's fine to oppose human rights so long as you are not going to overthrow the government tomorrow.[/quote]
You know what I am on about and I dont care how long you pretend you dont hypocrite cause it only shows im right.
Democracy is about people being able to have their own opinions
Except human rights are not interchangable like the ones you pretend to believe in fd

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Aug 10th, 2012 at 8:13pm

Quote:
You know what I am on about and I dont care how long you pretend you dont hypocrite cause it only shows im right.


You are not making anywhere near as much sense as you think you are. Who are these 'my people' that you think I have to answer for?


Quote:
Democracy is about people being able to have their own opinions


I would say that is what freedom is about - something Abu would have you stoned to death for.

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Spot of Borg on Aug 11th, 2012 at 6:27am

freediver wrote on Aug 10th, 2012 at 6:59pm:
I am not 'being a dick' spot. I am trying to explain some incredibly simple concepts to you. For some reason, despite explaining them 100 times, you are still oblivious to them. The most obvious one is the difference between what someone wants and what they are capable of achieving. Either you are incapable of understanding the difference, or for some reason you are deliberately lying about what Abu wants. He wants the death penalty for apostasy. He wants Shariah law for Australia. He wants to destroy democracy. He wants to deny people basic freedom and human rights. But for some reason all he has to do is point out that he is incapable of achieving these changes and you jump up and down like a lapdog telling everyone that he does not even want it. Why is it so hard for you to understand? Or do you not want to understand?


You are explaining that I should hate abu because you do.

Who cares what he wants? Lots of ppl want lots of things. Yadda wants all palestinians to be killed "pushed into the sea" yet this is acceptable to you? Lots of ppl want lots of things. If they cant do it and they know they cant do it how is it a problem? That is *if* its even true. Because of your track record I dont take your word for anything.

Also - the sum total of "democracy" in australia is voting. Thats it. Just so you realise you are using yank propaganda slogans.

SOB

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Aug 11th, 2012 at 7:47am

Quote:
You are explaining that I should hate abu because you do.


It is entirely up to you what sort of emotional response you have to this Spot. I am just trying to get you to be honest about it. Cognitive dissonance is the obvious response you should be having right now.


Quote:
Who cares what he wants?


Obviously you do. You have gone to a lot of effort to misrepresent it. People don't usually lie about something over and over again in the face of the evidence unless they have some kind of vested interest.


Quote:
Lots of ppl want lots of things.


Very few people want to destroy human rights and democracy and kill people for thought crimes, though it seems to be common among the Muslims I have spoken to.


Quote:
If they cant do it and they know they cant do it how is it a problem?


Now this is getting to the heart of the matter spot. I think I will start a new thread on it.

edit: here you go: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1344636735/0#0


Quote:
Also - the sum total of "democracy" in australia is voting. Thats it. Just so you realise you are using yank propaganda slogans.


I agree with you on this spot. That's all democracy is, with a few qualifications of course that are required to make it functioning and fair. For some reason Abu likes to pretend it is an entire belief system, but his argument disappears once you try to ask him about it. He certainly leapt on your 'American sloganism' angle, but only because he wanted to fool you into thinkig he was not opposed to actual democracy and did not want to impose his views on others.

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Spot of Borg on Aug 11th, 2012 at 8:35am

Quote:
Obviously you do. You have gone to a lot of effort to misrepresent it. People don't usually lie about something over and over again in the face of the evidence unless they have some kind of vested interest.


This is a lie. You keep bringing him into everything as if he is the spokesman for islam and all i keep saying is that he answered my question.


Quote:
Very few people want to destroy human rights and democracy and kill people for thought crimes, though it seems to be common among the Muslims I have spoken to.


You dont know. Maybe most ppl do. I dont know - you dont either. Gillard and abbott sure do.

Voting is useless. It does nothing. The pollies cheat and it makes no difference. As for human rights how about all those ppl locked in those detention centres for years? Is that humane? Im not surprised if ppl dont like the current system. It has a bit to be desired. See my new thread about "freedom" of speech in Oz.


Quote:
Now this is getting to the heart of the matter spot. I think I will start a new thread on it.


Be afraid. Be very afraid. FEAR! TERROR! Here is a pair of black glasses.



Just change "alien" to asian chinese vietnamese commie muslim

SOB

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Aug 11th, 2012 at 8:48am

Quote:
This is a lie. You keep bringing him into everything as if he is the spokesman for islam and all i keep saying is that he answered my question.


Again, not true. You have claimed many times to know what he wants, when he clearly fooled you into getting it completely backwards. You said it spot, own it or retract it. Don't pretend you did not say it. I can quote you if you want.


Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 11th, 2012 at 8:35am:

Quote:
Very few people want to destroy human rights and democracy and kill people for thought crimes, though it seems to be common among the Muslims I have spoken to.


You dont know. Maybe most ppl do. I dont know - you dont either. Gillard and abbott sure do.



No spot. Most people support freedom and democracy. This is a pretty eloborate length to go to to make excuses for Abu and his Muslim friends.

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Spot of Borg on Aug 11th, 2012 at 9:19am

freediver wrote on Aug 11th, 2012 at 8:48am:

Quote:
This is a lie. You keep bringing him into everything as if he is the spokesman for islam and all i keep saying is that he answered my question.


Again, not true. You have claimed many times to know what he wants, when he clearly fooled you into getting it completely backwards. You said it spot, own it or retract it. Don't pretend you did not say it. I can quote you if you want.


Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 11th, 2012 at 8:35am:
[quote]
Very few people want to destroy human rights and democracy and kill people for thought crimes, though it seems to be common among the Muslims I have spoken to.


You dont know. Maybe most ppl do. I dont know - you dont either. Gillard and abbott sure do.



No spot. Most people support freedom and democracy. This is a pretty eloborate length to go to to make excuses for Abu and his Muslim friends.[/quote]

See? Again you twist things and pretend i am defending abu when i was making a comment about australia and "democracy and human rights". Are you telling me gillard and abbott dont want to destroy human rights?

SOB


Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Aug 11th, 2012 at 9:35am
You have claimed many times to know what Abu wants, when he clearly fooled you into getting it completely backwards. You said it spot, own it or retract it. Don't pretend you did not say it. I can quote you if you want.

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by bobbythebat1 on Aug 11th, 2012 at 10:13am
Hi Freediver,
Let's sum this up with a simple question -

The hypothetical question is -

if sharia law came to Australia & a woman was sentenced to death by
stoning for e.g. adultery or apostasy -
would Abu join in with the crowd & throw stones at her?

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Spot of Borg on Aug 11th, 2012 at 10:16am

freediver wrote on Aug 11th, 2012 at 9:35am:
You have claimed many times to know what Abu wants, when he clearly fooled you into getting it completely backwards. You said it spot, own it or retract it. Don't pretend you did not say it. I can quote you if you want.


No i did not. I only know what he said when he answered my question. What is your problem.

SOB

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Aug 11th, 2012 at 12:13pm

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 11th, 2012 at 10:16am:

freediver wrote on Aug 11th, 2012 at 9:35am:
You have claimed many times to know what Abu wants, when he clearly fooled you into getting it completely backwards. You said it spot, own it or retract it. Don't pretend you did not say it. I can quote you if you want.


No i did not. I only know what he said when he answered my question. What is your problem.

SOB


You have no idea what he said. You are easily confused and easily fooled. Here are some examples of you claiming to know what Abu wants. You will not be able to back up any of them, because he did not actually say these things. He merely tricked you into thinking that is what he wants.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1344636735/6#6

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Spot of Borg on Aug 11th, 2012 at 12:53pm
None of that was what you claim it is. In fact didnt you use that post as an example of something else a few hours ago?

SOB

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Aug 11th, 2012 at 1:02pm
No Spot. You are confused. It is exactly what I said it is - examples of you claiming to know what Abu wants. In each case what he actually wants is the opposite.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1344636735/6#6

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Spot of Borg on Aug 11th, 2012 at 1:34pm

freediver wrote on Aug 11th, 2012 at 1:02pm:
No Spot. You are confused. It is exactly what I said it is - examples of you claiming to know what Abu wants. In each case what he actually wants is the opposite.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1344636735/6#6


Nope its all quoted out of context etc. I didnt read it all cause i know i didnt say it but the ones i did read i was talking about muslims generally where you got the quote form and you are quoting out of context saying it was about abu.

Why do you do this? Do you know that ppl can see right through it?

SOB

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Aug 11th, 2012 at 1:43pm

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 11th, 2012 at 1:34pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 11th, 2012 at 1:02pm:
No Spot. You are confused. It is exactly what I said it is - examples of you claiming to know what Abu wants. In each case what he actually wants is the opposite.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1344636735/6#6


Nope its all quoted out of context etc. I didnt read it all cause i know i didnt say it but the ones i did read i was talking about muslims generally where you got the quote form and you are quoting out of context saying it was about abu.

Why do you do this? Do you know that ppl can see right through it?

SOB



Ah yes, the "it's all too complicated for me" defence. OK Spot, let's start with something really simple for you. Please quote where Abu said this:


Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 6:36am:
He said he didnt want sharia law in australia.


Do you have anything other than wishfull thinking to justify this claim that Abu does not follow the Koran? Can you link to where I was quoting his book? Or were you just making it up as you go along?


Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 11:12am:
You are quoting his book. I quote your book. He doesnt follow his and you dont follow yours. They both say ppl should be killed for apostasy.

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Spot of Borg on Aug 11th, 2012 at 3:30pm

Quote:
Ah yes, the "it's all too complicated for me" defence. OK Spot, let's start with something really simple for you. Please quote where Abu said this:


Where did i say anything whatsoever about complication? more lies?

I dunno about the quote - where is it from? What did he say? Who did he say it to? Was it even Abu saying it? We dont know . . .

SOB

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by bobbythebat1 on Aug 11th, 2012 at 3:36pm
hypothetical question to Abu is -


Quote:
If Sharia law came to Australia & a woman was sentenced to death by stoning for e.g. adultery or apostasy - would you - Abu -

join in with the crowd & throw stones at her?

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by abu_rashid on Aug 11th, 2012 at 4:07pm
No.

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by bobbythebat1 on Aug 11th, 2012 at 4:21pm

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 11th, 2012 at 4:07pm:
No.



Thanks Abu,
That's it - end of discussion.

Abu is not a bronze age barbaric ape -
he's a normal person.  :o

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Aug 11th, 2012 at 6:43pm
Abu isn't it your duty as a Muslim to help throw the stones? Is it a paid position as you suggested elsewhere?


Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 11th, 2012 at 3:30pm:

Quote:
Ah yes, the "it's all too complicated for me" defence. OK Spot, let's start with something really simple for you. Please quote where Abu said this:


Where did i say anything whatsoever about complication? more lies?

I dunno about the quote - where is it from? What did he say? Who did he say it to? Was it even Abu saying it? We dont know . . .

SOB


It is your quote Spot. You said it. There is even a link to where you said it. Surely that is not too complicated for you? How am I supposed to know what you were referring to?


Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 6:36am:
He said he didnt want sharia law in australia.


Do you have anything other than wishfull thinking to justify this claim that Abu does not follow the Koran? Can you link to where I was quoting his book? Or were you just making it up as you go along?


Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 11:12am:
You are quoting his book. I quote your book. He doesnt follow his and you dont follow yours. They both say ppl should be killed for apostasy.

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Karnal on Aug 11th, 2012 at 9:10pm

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 27th, 2011 at 8:17pm:
Personally I'd like to see Pakistan, and the evil it implements, gone more than you would, so you're only preaching to the converted on that issue.


Yes, but certainly not the Pakistani state of mind. This, insh'allah, shall be preserved.

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Spot of Borg on Aug 12th, 2012 at 8:10am

Quote:
It is your quote Spot. You said it. There is even a link to where you said it. Surely that is not too complicated for you? How am I supposed to know what you were referring to?


Perhaps by reading the discussion wherever you quote-mined the quote from?

None of those quotes have context so you are just dishonest.

SOB

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Aug 12th, 2012 at 8:15am

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 12th, 2012 at 8:10am:
Perhaps by reading the discussion wherever you quote-mined the quote from?


Yes Spot I read that. As far as I can tell Abu fooled you into thinking the opposite of the truth. He never actually said the things you claim he said. If you try to point it out, perhaps it will be a bit clearer how he fooled you.

You said it spot. You back it up. It is not up to me to figure out why you are so deluded.


Quote:
None of those quotes have context so you are just dishonest.


I see, so using a link to the actual context instead of trying to incorporate the whole discussion into a single quote is automatically dishonest? Have you figured out hwo to follow those links yet spot? Is this why you keep accusing me and others of lying all the time, but you can never actual demonstrate a lie?

Here you go spot, just so you don't get all confused about what we are discussing again:

It is your quote Spot. You said it. There is even a link to where you said it. Surely that is not too complicated for you? How am I supposed to know what you were referring to?


Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 6:36am:
He said he didnt want sharia law in australia.


Do you have anything other than wishfull thinking to justify this claim that Abu does not follow the Koran? Can you link to where I was quoting his book? Or were you just making it up as you go along?


Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 11:12am:
You are quoting his book. I quote your book. He doesnt follow his and you dont follow yours. They both say ppl should be killed for apostasy.

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Spot of Borg on Aug 12th, 2012 at 8:36am
Nope. the supposed link to where i said it was a link to another post where you were saying i said it.

Quote the discussion. It was only 2 small posts. the question and the answer. You want to go on and on and on about it you post it.

SOB

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Aug 12th, 2012 at 8:44am

Quote:
Nope. the supposed link to where i said it was a link to another post where you were saying i said it.


Which one? The two in my previous post work fine. Perhaps your browser is not putting on the right post. After you follow the link, check the last number in the URL. This should be the same as the post number.

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Spot of Borg on Aug 13th, 2012 at 6:41am
You make the claims you back them up. You could do a longy and quote me in context thereby proving you are lying.

SOB

Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by freediver on Aug 13th, 2012 at 12:34pm
It is your quote Spot. You said it. There is even a link to where you said it in case you are still confused about what you said. Surely that is not too complicated for you?


Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 6:36am:
He said he didnt want sharia law in australia.


Do you have anything other than wishfull thinking to justify this claim that Abu does not follow the Koran? Can you link to where I was quoting his book? Or were you just making it up as you go along?


Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 11:12am:
You are quoting his book. I quote your book. He doesnt follow his and you dont follow yours. They both say ppl should be killed for apostasy.


Title: Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Post by Spot of Borg on Aug 13th, 2012 at 12:47pm

freediver wrote on Aug 13th, 2012 at 12:34pm:
It is your quote Spot. You said it. There is even a link to where you said it in case you are still confused about what you said. Surely that is not too complicated for you?


Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 6:36am:
He said he didnt want sharia law in australia.


Do you have anything other than wishfull thinking to justify this claim that Abu does not follow the Koran? Can you link to where I was quoting his book? Or were you just making it up as you go along?


Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 9th, 2012 at 11:12am:
You are quoting his book. I quote your book. He doesnt follow his and you dont follow yours. They both say ppl should be killed for apostasy.


Do you follow your bible?

SOB

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