What is the Good Life? And once we know it, or think we know it, or have a compelling opinion upon it, how to we seek it?

Sappho wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 2:53pm:

What is the Good Life? And once we know it, or think we know it, or have a compelling opinion upon it, how to we seek it?

IMO what constitutes the good life is the same no matter what your faith.

... wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 3:10pm:

IMO what constitutes the good life is the same no matter what your faith.

And that is :question

Sappho wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 3:14pm:

... wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 3:10pm: IMO what constitutes the good life is the same no matter what your faith. And that is :question

Well we've all got rules or principles we beleive we should follow, whether they be of our own making or relayed from 'god'.  
Living 'the good life' doesn't take too much conscious thought - I dunno bout you, but if I live according to my principles, everything just falls into place.  The trick is having the ability and the courage to carry on the way you know you should.

... wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 3:22pm:

Well we've all got rules or principles we beleive we should follow, whether they be of our own making or relayed from 'god'.   Living 'the good life' doesn't take too much conscious thought - I dunno bout you, but if I live according to my principles, everything just falls into place.  The trick is having the ability and the courage to carry on the way you know you should.

Yes but what is the Good Life to which your principles are formed. I don't think it is the same for the Religious and Atheists. The good life for Religious entails god and obedience to that entity. Atheists have no such concerns.

For me for example, The Good Life, is about reducing harm, increasing pleasure and developing meaningful relationships/friendships with others and my principles and morals are drawn from that belief.

Sappho wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 3:39pm:

... wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 3:22pm: Well we've all got rules or principles we beleive we should follow, whether they be of our own making or relayed from 'god'.   Living 'the good life' doesn't take too much conscious thought - I dunno bout you, but if I live according to my principles, everything just falls into place.  The trick is having the ability and the courage to carry on the way you know you should. Yes but what is the Good Life to which your principles are formed. I don't think it is the same for the Religious and Atheists. The good life for Religious entails god and obedience to that entity. Atheists have no such concerns. For me for example, The Good Life, is about reducing harm and increasing pleasure and my principles and morals are drawn from that belief.

Regardless of what your principles are, living according to them is what constitutes 'the good life'.  To put it as simply as I can, my principles are based around a belief that man is simply another part of the natural world, not over and above it.  So all our wants and dreams can be reduced to manifestations of the same animal instincts and impulses that any other beast lives by.  
In nature, generally the role of the male is to a) reproduce and b) provide security for their group.  So I've fulfilled part a, now my one and only true calling is to ensure they survive and thrive.  Everything else is window dressing.

... wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 3:51pm:

Regardless of what your principles are, living according to them is what constitutes 'the good life'.  To put it as simply as I can, my principles are based around a belief that man is simply another part of the natural world, not over and above it.  So all our wants and dreams can be reduced to manifestations of the same animal instincts and impulses that any other beast lives by.   In nature, generally the role of the male is to a) reproduce and b) provide security for their group.  So I've fulfilled part a, now my one and only true calling is to ensure they survive and thrive.  Everything else is window dressing.

I think you are confusing The Meaning of Life, with, The Good Life. Absolutely, it is the case that the meaning of life for humans and other animals is survival, but for humans we can go further than that to explore Goodness, not in the shallow sense, but in a mindful sense which the religious would call a soulful sense. Other animals can't contemplate such things. This is one of the things that separates our species from all the rest.

So, when I ask, What is the Good Life, I am asking what is the Goodness to which we should strive in our principles and morals. It is not about survival to which procreation is a part thereof.

Then I will have to ask - goodness according to whom?  Surely our own impressions of what is 'good' is all that matters?  I mean, don't supposedly evil people think that what they do or believe is 'right'? I don't belive in absolute good or evil.  They are all relative to ones own standpoint.

... wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 4:03pm:

Then I will have to ask - goodness according to whom?  Surely our own impressions of what is 'good' is all that matters?  I mean, don't supposedly evil people think that what they do or believe is 'right'? I don't belive in absolute good or evil.  They are all relative to ones own standpoint.

Well, we could same the same of nearly every word in existence. What is existence and existence according to whom? What is 'same' and 'same' according to whom? What is 'love' and 'love' according to whom? What is 'living' and 'living' according to whom? Ad infinitum... almost.

However, when we start discussing such things, commonalities present between people and their concepts. We take those commonalities and use them as the defining characteristics, being mindful that others may add further to that meaning that what the 'common' meaning dictates.

Sappho wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 4:36pm:

... wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 4:03pm: Then I will have to ask - goodness according to whom?  Surely our own impressions of what is 'good' is all that matters?  I mean, don't supposedly evil people think that what they do or believe is 'right'? I don't belive in absolute good or evil.  They are all relative to ones own standpoint. Well, we could same the same of nearly every word in existence. What is existence and existence according to whom? What is 'same' and 'same' according to whom? What is 'love' and 'love' according to whom? What is 'living' and 'living' according to whom? Ad infinitum... almost. However, when we start discussing such things, commonalities present between people and their concepts. We take those commonalities and use them as the defining characteristics, being mindful that others may add further to that meaning that what the 'common' meaning dictates.

But go back in time even as little as 20 years - what is the epitome of evil now was all rather 'meh' then.  Conversely, communism was regarded as the ultimate evil then, but nowadays in some circles it's the answer to all our problems.  

... wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 4:43pm:

Sappho wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 4:36pm: ... wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 4:03pm: Then I will have to ask - goodness according to whom?  Surely our own impressions of what is 'good' is all that matters?  I mean, don't supposedly evil people think that what they do or believe is 'right'? I don't belive in absolute good or evil.  They are all relative to ones own standpoint. Well, we could same the same of nearly every word in existence. What is existence and existence according to whom? What is 'same' and 'same' according to whom? What is 'love' and 'love' according to whom? What is 'living' and 'living' according to whom? Ad infinitum... almost. However, when we start discussing such things, commonalities present between people and their concepts. We take those commonalities and use them as the defining characteristics, being mindful that others may add further to that meaning that what the 'common' meaning dictates. But go back in time even as little as 20 years - what is the epitome of evil now was all rather 'meh' then.  Conversely, communism was regarded as the ultimate evil then, but nowadays in some circles it's the answer to all our problems.

But we are not talking about evil. Evil has no bearing on the discussion at hand. And what you say of the word evil, cannot be said of the word good. So again, your digress into semantics doesn't actually address the topic.  

Sappho wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 4:56pm:

... wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 4:43pm: Sappho wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 4:36pm: ... wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 4:03pm: Then I will have to ask - goodness according to whom?  Surely our own impressions of what is 'good' is all that matters?  I mean, don't supposedly evil people think that what they do or believe is 'right'? I don't belive in absolute good or evil.  They are all relative to ones own standpoint. Well, we could same the same of nearly every word in existence. What is existence and existence according to whom? What is 'same' and 'same' according to whom? What is 'love' and 'love' according to whom? What is 'living' and 'living' according to whom? Ad infinitum... almost. However, when we start discussing such things, commonalities present between people and their concepts. We take those commonalities and use them as the defining characteristics, being mindful that others may add further to that meaning that what the 'common' meaning dictates. But go back in time even as little as 20 years - what is the epitome of evil now was all rather 'meh' then.  Conversely, communism was regarded as the ultimate evil then, but nowadays in some circles it's the answer to all our problems.   But we are not talking about evil. Evil has no bearing on the discussion at hand. And what you say of the word evil, cannot be said of the word good. So again, your digress into semantics doesn't actually address the topic.

Really?  You can't find any relevance of evil to good?  It's simply the other side of the same coin.

Well how about go back 200 years - 'civilizing the savages' was seen as good.  But I bet you'd strongly disagree with that nowadays wouldn't you?  But that doesn't mean everyone sees it as such.  

... wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 5:04pm:

Sappho wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 4:56pm: ... wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 4:43pm: Sappho wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 4:36pm: ... wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 4:03pm: Then I will have to ask - goodness according to whom?  Surely our own impressions of what is 'good' is all that matters?  I mean, don't supposedly evil people think that what they do or believe is 'right'? I don't belive in absolute good or evil.  They are all relative to ones own standpoint. Well, we could same the same of nearly every word in existence. What is existence and existence according to whom? What is 'same' and 'same' according to whom? What is 'love' and 'love' according to whom? What is 'living' and 'living' according to whom? Ad infinitum... almost. However, when we start discussing such things, commonalities present between people and their concepts. We take those commonalities and use them as the defining characteristics, being mindful that others may add further to that meaning that what the 'common' meaning dictates. But go back in time even as little as 20 years - what is the epitome of evil now was all rather 'meh' then.  Conversely, communism was regarded as the ultimate evil then, but nowadays in some circles it's the answer to all our problems.   But we are not talking about evil. Evil has no bearing on the discussion at hand. And what you say of the word evil, cannot be said of the word good. So again, your digress into semantics doesn't actually address the topic.   Really?  You can't find any relevance of evil to good?  It's simply the other side of the same coin. Well how about go back 200 years - 'civilizing the savages' was seen as good.  But I bet you'd strongly disagree with that nowadays wouldn't you?  But that doesn't mean everyone sees it as such.

Evil pertains to religion. Civilizing the savages pertains to religion. This thread pertains to Atheists and what is a Good Life.

Sappho wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 5:12pm:

... wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 5:04pm: Sappho wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 4:56pm: ... wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 4:43pm: Sappho wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 4:36pm: ... wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 4:03pm: Then I will have to ask - goodness according to whom?  Surely our own impressions of what is 'good' is all that matters?  I mean, don't supposedly evil people think that what they do or believe is 'right'? I don't belive in absolute good or evil.  They are all relative to ones own standpoint. Well, we could same the same of nearly every word in existence. What is existence and existence according to whom? What is 'same' and 'same' according to whom? What is 'love' and 'love' according to whom? What is 'living' and 'living' according to whom? Ad infinitum... almost. However, when we start discussing such things, commonalities present between people and their concepts. We take those commonalities and use them as the defining characteristics, being mindful that others may add further to that meaning that what the 'common' meaning dictates. But go back in time even as little as 20 years - what is the epitome of evil now was all rather 'meh' then.  Conversely, communism was regarded as the ultimate evil then, but nowadays in some circles it's the answer to all our problems.   But we are not talking about evil. Evil has no bearing on the discussion at hand. And what you say of the word evil, cannot be said of the word good. So again, your digress into semantics doesn't actually address the topic.   Really?  You can't find any relevance of evil to good?  It's simply the other side of the same coin. Well how about go back 200 years - 'civilizing the savages' was seen as good.  But I bet you'd strongly disagree with that nowadays wouldn't you?  But that doesn't mean everyone sees it as such.   Evil pertains to religion. Civilizing the savages pertains to religion. This thread pertains to Atheists and what is a Good Life.

What? You can't be serious....evil is simply the opposite of good, and everyone, religious or not, has a 'compass' with which to gauge where something sits long this spectrum.   Blaming everything you dislike on the 'religion' boogieman doesn't really make for objective commentary.

... wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 5:23pm:

What? You can't be serious....evil is simply the opposite of good, and everyone, religious or not, has a 'compass' with which to gauge where something sits long this spectrum.   Blaming everything you dislike on the 'religion' boogieman doesn't really make for objective commentary.

You are talking to Sappho, not Boogieman and whilst you prefer evil to be the antonym of good, I prefer bad to be the antonym of good.

Nonetheless, to move this discussion further, lets explore this idea of yours that knowing the Bad Life will show us what the good life is. Would you like to expand on that?

I'm not sure I grasp what you mean by the 'good life'. I might just take a back seat until i can get a handle on it.

... wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 5:39pm:

I'm not sure I grasp what you mean by the 'good life'. I might just take a back seat until i can get a handle on it.

Previously, and very early in the piece I wrote...


Quote:

For me for example, The Good Life, is about reducing harm, increasing pleasure and developing meaningful relationships/friendships with others and my principles and morals are drawn from that belief.

Does this help your understanding a little? Do you see any flaws in this concept of the good life?

Sappho wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 5:42pm:

... wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 5:39pm: I'm not sure I grasp what you mean by the 'good life'. I might just take a back seat until i can get a handle on it. Previously, and very early in the piece I wrote... Quote: For me for example, The Good Life, is about reducing harm, increasing pleasure and developing meaningful relationships/friendships with others and my principles and morals are drawn from that belief. Does this help your understanding a little? Do you see any flaws in this concept of the good life?

Yep, saw that and thought how it all revolved around yourself.  Is there no greater good?

... wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 5:44pm:

Sappho wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 5:42pm: ... wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 5:39pm: I'm not sure I grasp what you mean by the 'good life'. I might just take a back seat until i can get a handle on it. Previously, and very early in the piece I wrote... Quote: For me for example, The Good Life, is about reducing harm, increasing pleasure and developing meaningful relationships/friendships with others and my principles and morals are drawn from that belief. Does this help your understanding a little? Do you see any flaws in this concept of the good life? Yep, saw that and thought how it all revolved around yourself.  Is there no greater good?

I'm curious, how is it that reducing harm and increasing pleasure as well as fostering meaningful relationships become a self centred activity? Also, I'm not sure if there is a greater good, but that you ask the question seems to suggest that you have a concept of a greater good? Do you? Would you give me an example of what you mean?

Sappho wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 5:42pm:

Previously, and very early in the piece I wrote... [quote]For me for example, The Good Life, is about reducing harm, increasing pleasure and developing meaningful relationships/friendships with others and my principles and morals are drawn from that belief.

That seems an almost Christian philosophy Sappho, do unto others etc. Although the church, as an institiution, was seriously opposed to most sorts of pleasure the basic philosophy is there.

Sappho wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 5:48pm:

... wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 5:44pm: Sappho wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 5:42pm: ... wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 5:39pm: I'm not sure I grasp what you mean by the 'good life'. I might just take a back seat until i can get a handle on it. Previously, and very early in the piece I wrote... Quote: For me for example, The Good Life, is about reducing harm, increasing pleasure and developing meaningful relationships/friendships with others and my principles and morals are drawn from that belief. Does this help your understanding a little? Do you see any flaws in this concept of the good life? Yep, saw that and thought how it all revolved around yourself.  Is there no greater good? I'm curious, how is it that reducing harm and increasing pleasure as well as fostering meaningful relationships become a self centred activity? Also, I'm not sure if there is a greater good, but that you ask the question seems to suggest that you have a concept of a greater good? Do you? Would you give me an example of what you mean?

I assumed that 'increasing pleasure' meant pleasure for yourself.

I don't really place any importance on a greater good.  Some actions we take might have more far-reaching benefits, but they don't factor into my calculations, and I won't disadvantage myself or 'my own' for a bigger casue.

... wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 5:53pm:

I assumed that 'increasing pleasure' meant pleasure for yourself.

I understand. And in some senses that is true. If I act in a way that increases the pleasure experienced by another, then my levels of pleasure will increase also. It feels good to be good you see. Equally, if I can reduce the suffering of another, then again, my sense of pleasure has increased because I'm feeling good about making another feel better.

But as you can see, the acts of reducing harm and increasing pleasure are more about our impact on others than it is about self gratification.

Sappho wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 5:59pm:

... wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 5:53pm: I assumed that 'increasing pleasure' meant pleasure for yourself. I understand. And in some senses that is true. If I act in a way that increases the pleasure experienced by another, then my levels of pleasure will increase also. It feels good to be good you see. Equally, if I can reduce the suffering of another, then again, my sense of pleasure has increased because I'm feeling good about making another feel better. But as you can see, the acts of reducing harm and increasing pleasure are more about our impact on others than it is about self gratification.

Ahhhh but anthropologists have found that helping others is a viable survival strategy.  By helping others, you increase the odds that they in turn will help you when you need it.  What makes you so sure that THAT'S not what it's all about?  

See how I tied that in with what i said before:


Quote:

So all our wants and dreams can be reduced to manifestations of the same animal instincts and impulses that any other beast lives by.

What is the antonym of evil? This reminds me of the problem of evil debate. In the absence of evil, it is hard to figure out what good is.


Quote:

and I won't disadvantage myself or 'my own' for a bigger casue.

You do it all the time.


Quote:

So all our wants and dreams can be reduced to manifestations of the same animal instincts and impulses that any other beast lives by.

Yet you deny those things in yourself. The example you gave of yourself is not a reflection of your animal instincts and impulses, but a supression of them. Humans practice extraordinary self control in sexual activity. This is not in the interests of the individual from a Darwinian perspective. Rather, individual drives are sacrificed for the benfit of the many.

freediver wrote on Jul 9^th, 2011 at 9:50am:

What is the antonym of evil? This reminds me of the problem of evil debate. In the absence of evil, it is hard to figure out what good is. Quote: and I won't disadvantage myself or 'my own' for a bigger casue. You do it all the time. [quote]So all our wants and dreams can be reduced to manifestations of the same animal instincts and impulses that any other beast lives by.

Yet you deny those things in yourself. The example you gave of yourself is not a reflection of your animal instincts and impulses, but a supression of them. Humans practice extraordinary self control in sexual activity. This is not in the interests of the individual from a Darwinian perspective. Rather, individual drives are sacrificed for the benfit of the many. [/quote]


No, I wouldn't say 'deny' but of course the imulses need to be tempered - otherwise life would be very short and violent indeed.  But whether we indulge our every whim or not, is not the same thing as recognising what is at the root of them.

I'd be interested in hearing you expand on how I disadvantage my own 'all the time' though.

For example, you take the time to go to the toilet, rather than crapping on the footpath, even in situations where you would not get caught.

... wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 6:11pm:

Ahhhh but anthropologists have found that helping others is a viable survival strategy.  By helping others, you increase the odds that they in turn will help you when you need it.  What makes you so sure that THAT'S not what it's all about?

Yeah, and some have suggested that religion gave an evolutionary benefit for the same reason.  Hmmm so "God"  evolved to improve our survival strategy... makes sense.

The Good Life - Atheist Style


Let me, as an 'outside' observer, try to define this atheist utopian 'ideal'.     ;D




It is a life where we have a freedom to behave as we wish, without restraint.

But where nothing bad ever happens to anyone.

And nothing bad ever happens to anyone, because we [all of us atheists] all know how to 'behave', without doing anything wrong.




How'd i do ????     hehe

Yadda wrote on Jul 17^th, 2011 at 2:15am:

The Good Life - Atheist Style Let me, as an 'outside' observer, try to define this atheist utopian 'ideal'.     ;D It is a life where we have a freedom to behave as we wish, without restraint. But where nothing bad ever happens to anyone. And nothing bad ever happens to anyone, because we [all of us atheists] all know how to 'behave', without doing anything wrong. How'd i do ????     hehe

About as dimwitted a response as could be expected...

George W Bush is a Christian isn't he? Seems his Christian values didn't stop him advancing a lie to make war when it was not necessary... Killing untold thousands of innocents... A crime for which his Christian-centric compatriots seem unwilling to make him accountable for.

Funny how they're so resolute when a President is caught up in a sex cover-up... But no worries when it comes to a President lying and causing the death of innocents.

Quote:

About as dimwitted a response as could be expected... George W Bush is a Christian isn't he? Seems his Christian values didn't stop him advancing a lie to make war when it was not necessary... Killing untold thousands of innocents... A crime for which his Christian-centric compatriots seem unwilling to make him accountable for. Funny how they're so resolute when a President is caught up in a sex cover-up... But no worries when it comes to a President lying and causing the death of innocents.

Here here!

Yadda wrote on Jul 17^th, 2011 at 2:15am:

The Good Life - Atheist Style Let me, as an 'outside' observer, try to define this atheist utopian 'ideal'.     ;D It is a life where we have a freedom to behave as we wish, without restraint. But where nothing bad ever happens to anyone. And nothing bad ever happens to anyone, because we [all of us atheists] all know how to 'behave', without doing anything wrong. How'd i do ????     hehe

I don't think there is such a thing as an all-encompassing "atheistic" way of life. It's like saying that there is an all-encompassing religious way of life, where religion = Christianity or Islam or Buddhism or take your pick.

Some people might classify me as atheistic in that I don't have a personal God who watches over me and to whom I report and say "please God make my life good" and "please God, deal with those people whom I think are bad" and "please God, let the tax man overlook my slight indiscretions" every day.

In fact your erroneous argument might just as easily be applied to Deists or just about any other religion which doesn't have an interventionist god.

- and by the way, my life is anything but unrestrained. In some respects it is just as restrained as that of the most devout Christian, and judging from some of the pants-down evangelicals, probably a lot more so.  

Well Muso .. some may argue that you are not a practising Atheist .. but a nominal one :)

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 17^th, 2011 at 2:45am:

Yadda wrote on Jul 17th, 2011 at 2:15am: The Good Life - Atheist Style Let me, as an 'outside' observer, try to define this atheist utopian 'ideal'.     ;D It is a life where we have a freedom to behave as we wish, without restraint. But where nothing bad ever happens to anyone. And nothing bad ever happens to anyone, because we [all of us atheists] all know how to 'behave', without doing anything wrong. How'd i do ????     hehe About as dimwitted a response as could be expected... George W Bush is a Christian isn't he? Seems his Christian values didn't stop him advancing a lie to make war when it was not necessary... Killing untold thousands of innocents... A crime for which his Christian-centric compatriots seem unwilling to make him accountable for. Funny how they're so resolute when a President is caught up in a sex cover-up... But no worries when it comes to a President lying and causing the death of innocents.

helian,

It seems to me that you have a conveniently bad memory, when having a bad memory suits your purpose....

In this forum, on many occasions, i have condemned the duplicity of world leaders like the 'Christian' G'Dubya, and leaders like Blair, and Howard.


"muslims significantly increase terrorist risks"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1249728748/31#31

Quote:

G'Dubya, and Tony Blair, were never my men. People, 'leaders', like G'Dubya disgust me. They have their own agenda. They have betrayed the principles stated within the USA constitution, on which the USA was founded.

"All Terrorists are Muslims"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1297976706/71#71

Quote:

IMO, your assessment is essentially correct. IMO, people like G'Dubya, Blair, and Howard, all chose to justify what were essentially criminal acts. IMO, the invasion of Iraq [mkII], was an unjustified criminal act.

My response, to your accusations, and condemnation of Christianity...

Is the Pope a Catholic, AND, is G'Dubya a Christian ???


Is the evil which has been committed by people like Howard, Tony Blair, and G'Dubya [by collectively, intentionally, deceiving their own peoples], condoned by the right principles, of loving liberty and of loving justice and truth [which helped in guiding the formation of their respective nations] ???

No.

People like Howard, Tony Blair, and G'Dubya [and successive recent US administrations], have always done 'what is right in their own eyes'.



Our 'leaders', our 'examples', are self-serving corrupted men, one and all.

And imo, they are all true representatives of the majority of the people who raised them to their positions of leadership over us.

It is we who are the whore(s), THEY, just represent us, what we are.

Google,
"Saudi money" president Carter Center

Google,
"Saudi money" Bush Presidential Library

Google,
"Saudi money" president Clinton Foundation

Google,
"Tony Blair" "United Nations" peace job




Psalms 14:2
The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3  They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.





"Is Homophobia A Mental Illness"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1298920921/16#16

Quote:

PROPOSITION... If there is no God, then good and evil are meaningless concepts, except as they are defined by society, and/or by ourselves. Logically, if we can ignore, evade, the rules of our society, then we ourselves [within our own 'sphere of influence'] can become the absolute arbiters of what is good and evil. [i.e. we become like God, we make ourselves God.  2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 "...shewing himself that he is God."] ......On another forum, someone suggested that [because of my expressed belief's] i must be a crazy person. Are you a 'normal' person? Today, many [supposedly] 'normal', sane people, demonstrate that they have a personal ethos, which does not include any concept of GOOD and EVIL. Today, many [supposedly] 'normal', sane people have personal 'values' which not include any concept of self-restraint. Look all over the world, at the type of leaders 'normal' people have chosen, and have elected to power, in recent years. Tony Blair, GW Bush, Obama, Silvio Berlusconi, Vladimir Putin, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Hamid Karzai, etc. It is wonderful, isn't it! Being 'normal'. /sarc off I'm so glad that many people consider that i am not 'normal'.

And yet Dubya claims guidance from the Bible.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 18^th, 2011 at 8:26am:

And yet Dubya claims guidance from the Bible.

http://www.freethinker.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/mubible.jpg
Mugabe the 'Christian' holding up a Bible.





helian,

Sure Mugabe is a Christian too.
/sarc off

He's holding up a Bible, which shows his reverence for it.

Doesn't it ???



+++


Psalms 15:1
LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?
2  He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.
3  He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour.
4  In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the LORD. He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 18^th, 2011 at 8:26am:

And yet Dubya claims guidance from the Bible.

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8  He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


John 8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.


Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45  And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46  Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47  He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
48  Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
49  Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.

Yadda wrote on Jul 18^th, 2011 at 9:06am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 18th, 2011 at 8:26am: And yet Dubya claims guidance from the Bible. http://www.freethinker.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/mubible.jpg Mugabe the 'Christian' holding up a Bible. helian, Sure Mugabe is a Christian too. /sarc off He's holding up a Bible, which shows his reverence for it. Doesn't it ???

Maybe it does, Yadda. What makes you think his take on the Bible is the wrong one?

Yadda wrote on Jul 18^th, 2011 at 9:20am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 18th, 2011 at 8:26am: And yet Dubya claims guidance from the Bible. 1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8  He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

He's Dubya, Yadda... He'd have an army of theologians available to him to confirm his interpretation of Christian theology... He'd even have access to a few Catholic theological storm troopers, the Jesuits, to prop him up... What if they've got the mortgage on the theological righteousness of lying to justify the means? Wouldn't be hard for a Christian storm trooper.

freediver wrote on Jul 15^th, 2011 at 8:25pm:

For example, you take the time to go to the toilet, rather than crapping on the footpath, even in situations where you would not get caught.

But how does using a toilet disadvantage 'my own'?  It'd be more of a disavnatge if I should be arrested and/or fined for having a dump in public don't you think?

Another example please.

Sappho wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 2:53pm:

What is the Good Life? And once we know it, or think we know it, or have a compelling opinion upon it, how to we seek it?

A good life is a life that is 'stress' free.

...oh and a bed with naked wonder woman in it.  ;)

Yadda wrote on Jul 18^th, 2011 at 9:20am:

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8  He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45  And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46  Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47  He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. 48  Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? 49  Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.

Mate... can I ask you why you repeatedly post this sort of drivel
as some sort of bizarre response to a meaningful debate?

Citing a dark ages book of fantasy fiction is pointless in a scientifically
enlightened 21st century, and surely you must be aware of this?  And
it doesn't have any relevance to the topic of atheistic lifestyle.  I know
that religious zealots will never understand that atheists don't for a
moment believe in the existence of supernatural entities ('gods') and/or
paranormal phenomenon ('miracles'), but both concepts are truly ludicrous.

I think you need to take your god-bothering elsewhere.      ::)

The Religions of the Middle-East gave poor people something to believe in, like - life after death.
Especially when the Military gave them death quite a lot.
Religion kinda softened the blow for the poor at the back of the head, where that special gland excretes its 'calming effect' upon that moment of dying.  ;)

AusGeoff wrote on Jan 7^th, 2023 at 7:55pm:

Mate... can I ask you why you repeatedly post this sort of drivel as some sort of bizarre response to a meaningful debate? Citing a dark ages book of fantasy fiction is pointless in a scientifically enlightened 21st century, and surely you must be aware of this?  And it doesn't have any relevance to the topic of atheistic lifestyle.  I know that religious zealots will never understand that atheists don't for a moment believe in the existence of supernatural entities ('gods') and/or paranormal phenomenon ('miracles'), but both concepts are truly ludicrous. I think you need to take your god-bothering elsewhere.      ::)

Underneath all that selfless evangelical fervour is the belief the more 'souls you save' the closer to the celestial throne you'll be seated on the great day you attain your reward.
On the other side there's the seldom discussed discipline of modern biblical studies, a great deal of which is undertaken by agnostics . Or to put it another way 'The things that you're lible to read in the bible it aint necessarily so.Bishop John Shelby Spong is worth reading on this.

Every Christian in Australia is 'Down Under' in Hell.  ;D ;D ;D

The perceived Good Life changes at different stages. Towards the end, it has no meaning at all.

issuevoter wrote on Jan 7^th, 2023 at 10:06pm:

The perceived Good Life changes at different stages. Towards the end, it has no meaning at all.

What about through your grand-kids and your achievements?

Sappho wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 2:53pm:

What is the Good Life? And once we know it, or think we know it, or have a compelling opinion upon it, how to we seek it?

Part of my successful escape from indoctrination was finding a solid new value path that is not dictated by Medieval mythology but is in theme with the modern scientific knowledge and superior to the domination dynamics between human and animal, human and human and creator and human in the hebrew bible and similar to many gods people have invented before and after Xtianity.

I have always been drawn to nature, and as such as well as given that the way of things being is through nature and its laws, it's not surprising that a big part of my detanglement and rebirth has taken place more easily after a focus on nature.

Besides nature, humans have each other, and unironically, joint efforts have a greater payoff than prayers. Social homo sapiens evolved rules to make sure for greater success of survival and benefits for everyone, so helping others would be intuitive. 

LucyFur wrote on Jan 15^th, 2023 at 8:29pm:

Sappho wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 2:53pm: What is the Good Life? And once we know it, or think we know it, or have a compelling opinion upon it, how to we seek it? Part of my successful escape from indoctrination was finding a solid new value path that is not dictated by Medieval mythology but is in theme with the modern scientific knowledge and superior to the domination dynamics between human and animal, human and human and creator and human in the hebrew bible and similar to many gods people have invented before and after Xtianity. I have always been drawn to nature, and as such as well as given that the way of things being is through nature and its laws, it's not surprising that a big part of my detanglement and rebirth has taken place more easily after a focus on nature. Besides nature, humans have each other, and unironically, joint efforts have a greater payoff than prayers. Social homo sapiens evolved rules to make sure for greater success of survival and benefits for everyone, so helping others would be intuitive.

Thanks Lucy

The good life is aiming to be true to what you believe and seeking to believe the most accurate version, as well as acknowledging your faults, to be as logical as possible and as skeptical as possible, for a sustainable conclusion, but also to be enjoying life and yourself without unnecessary rules that tested against all kinds of results and information can be discarded as people's talk.

But to avoid the irritation with the flow of the masses, the mass brainwash of religion indoctrination and the horrible things that happen within that and within the brain while they are under its influence, acceptance is sometimes required, tolerance, anger with the correct things that request for anger, and practically discussion, learning and a counter of fake claims, such things aren't taught in schools and such things many people don't use on their beliefs. Beliefs aren't supposed to just be expressed, or endeared for their fascinating power, but tested. The human brain gets very creative, it is better for it to not be allowed to endlessly go on on certain theories.

double post

LucyFur wrote on Jan 15^th, 2023 at 8:46pm:

The good life is aiming to be true to what you believe and seeking to believe the most accurate version, as well as acknowledging your faults, to be as logical as possible and as skeptical as possible, for a sustainable conclusion, but also to be enjoying life and yourself without unnecessary rules that tested against all kinds of results and information can be discarded as people's talk. But to avoid the irritation with the flow of the masses, the mass brainwash of religion indoctrination and the horrible things that happen within that and within the brain while they are under its influence, acceptance is sometimes required, tolerance, anger with the correct things that request for anger, and practically discussion, learning and a counter of fake claims, such things aren't taught in schools and such things many people don't use on their beliefs. Beliefs aren't supposed to just be expressed, or endeared for their fascinating power, but tested. The human brain gets very creative, it is better for it to not be allowed to endlessly go on on certain theories.

The problem is most ppl aren't rational.
Most are ruled by their emotions.

Unfortunately, it seems the inmates are ruling the asylum.

AusGeoff wrote on Jan 7^th, 2023 at 7:55pm:

Yadda wrote on Jul 18th, 2011 at 9:20am: 1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8  He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45  And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46  Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47  He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. 48  Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? 49  Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. Mate... can I ask you why you repeatedly post this sort of drivel as some sort of bizarre response to a meaningful debate? Citing a dark ages book of fantasy fiction is pointless in a scientifically enlightened 21st century, and surely you must be aware of this?  And it doesn't have any relevance to the topic of atheistic lifestyle.  I know that religious zealots will never understand that atheists don't for a moment believe in the existence of supernatural entities ('gods') and/or paranormal phenomenon ('miracles'), but both concepts are truly ludicrous. I think you need to take your god-bothering elsewhere.      ::)

You are invited to say this at the next NIDOC gathering, Aboriginal smoking ceremony, when secret men's/women's business is invoked or any reference is made to Aboriginal beliefs. Stres the dark ages. See how you go.

You two (Lucy & Steve) are good.

I wonder what Sappho would think of...

The Bad Life - Atheist Style?

Night-Clubbing with a length of wood any Christian on a dance floor?

iSteveSteve wrote on Jan 15^th, 2023 at 9:08pm:

LucyFur wrote on Jan 15th, 2023 at 8:46pm: The good life is aiming to be true to what you believe and seeking to believe the most accurate version, as well as acknowledging your faults, to be as logical as possible and as skeptical as possible, for a sustainable conclusion, but also to be enjoying life and yourself without unnecessary rules that tested against all kinds of results and information can be discarded as people's talk. But to avoid the irritation with the flow of the masses, the mass brainwash of religion indoctrination and the horrible things that happen within that and within the brain while they are under its influence, acceptance is sometimes required, tolerance, anger with the correct things that request for anger, and practically discussion, learning and a counter of fake claims, such things aren't taught in schools and such things many people don't use on their beliefs. Beliefs aren't supposed to just be expressed, or endeared for their fascinating power, but tested. The human brain gets very creative, it is better for it to not be allowed to endlessly go on on certain theories. The problem is most ppl aren't rational. Most are ruled by their emotions. Unfortunately, it seems the inmates are ruling the asylum.

There is a tension here between 'what you believe' and rationality.  Rationality is obviously not enough. Interpersonal relationships are not merely rational.

Atheists abhor the clergy and the use of religion to badger and browbeat, not without some justification, but go too far and become fetishist of a arrow, rationalistic dogma that they use, in turn, to badger and browbeat.

Tales, myths, parables, literature, poetry have great and powerful illumination power that mere rationality doesn't. Atheism goes to far in its revolt, like all revolts.

iSteveSteve wrote on Jan 15^th, 2023 at 9:08pm:

LucyFur wrote on Jan 15th, 2023 at 8:46pm: The good life is aiming to be true to what you believe and seeking to believe the most accurate version, as well as acknowledging your faults, to be as logical as possible and as skeptical as possible, for a sustainable conclusion, but also to be enjoying life and yourself without unnecessary rules that tested against all kinds of results and information can be discarded as people's talk. But to avoid the irritation with the flow of the masses, the mass brainwash of religion indoctrination and the horrible things that happen within that and within the brain while they are under its influence, acceptance is sometimes required, tolerance, anger with the correct things that request for anger, and practically discussion, learning and a counter of fake claims, such things aren't taught in schools and such things many people don't use on their beliefs. Beliefs aren't supposed to just be expressed, or endeared for their fascinating power, but tested. The human brain gets very creative, it is better for it to not be allowed to endlessly go on on certain theories. The problem is most ppl aren't rational. Most are ruled by their emotions. Unfortunately, it seems the inmates are ruling the asylum.

Emotions, instincts, peer pressure, false agendas about the meaning of life and purpose, false feelings of purpose, and depersonalized purpose copied and learned from the others.

We live in a world where there is an illusion of evolution, as technology advances, the brain naturally does not, the beast is within. That's why there is a duty to control the beast and not to breed like animals without logically giving it considerations about the meaning of life.

Life is an unfair suffering farm, bringing children into it is a most inconsiderate, selfish and misguided act for which people cannot be held responsible to the full extent of the situation or taken seriously for. It's unfortunate but humanity is enslaved by its own downsides and blindness. But besides that, it produces quantity and lack of quality and it seems like it'll go on for a long time. But, that ends with us, my darling.

Jasin wrote on Jan 15^th, 2023 at 9:26pm:

You two (Lucy & Steve) are good. I wonder what Sappho would think of... The Bad Life - Atheist Style? Night-Clubbing with a length of wood any Christian on a dance floor?

Exclusive. Every Sunday at Atheistic church. Spare the intelligent ones to take care of the poor unicorn that has been undermined with human superiority.

"Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib? Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee? Wilt thou trust him, because his strength is great? or wilt thou leave thy labour to him? Wilt thou believe him, that he will bring home thy seed, and gather it into thy barn?"
- Job 39:9-12

iSteveSteve wrote on Jan 15^th, 2023 at 9:08pm:

LucyFur wrote on Jan 15th, 2023 at 8:46pm: The good life is aiming to be true to what you believe and seeking to believe the most accurate version, as well as acknowledging your faults, to be as logical as possible and as skeptical as possible, for a sustainable conclusion, but also to be enjoying life and yourself without unnecessary rules that tested against all kinds of results and information can be discarded as people's talk. But to avoid the irritation with the flow of the masses, the mass brainwash of religion indoctrination and the horrible things that happen within that and within the brain while they are under its influence, acceptance is sometimes required, tolerance, anger with the correct things that request for anger, and practically discussion, learning and a counter of fake claims, such things aren't taught in schools and such things many people don't use on their beliefs. Beliefs aren't supposed to just be expressed, or endeared for their fascinating power, but tested. The human brain gets very creative, it is better for it to not be allowed to endlessly go on on certain theories. The problem is most ppl aren't rational. Most are ruled by their emotions. Unfortunately, it seems the inmates are ruling the asylum.

When System 2 has been overtaken by System 1 thinking.

Frank wrote on Jan 15^th, 2023 at 9:54pm:

iSteveSteve wrote on Jan 15th, 2023 at 9:08pm: LucyFur wrote on Jan 15th, 2023 at 8:46pm: The good life is aiming to be true to what you believe and seeking to believe the most accurate version, as well as acknowledging your faults, to be as logical as possible and as skeptical as possible, for a sustainable conclusion, but also to be enjoying life and yourself without unnecessary rules that tested against all kinds of results and information can be discarded as people's talk. But to avoid the irritation with the flow of the masses, the mass brainwash of religion indoctrination and the horrible things that happen within that and within the brain while they are under its influence, acceptance is sometimes required, tolerance, anger with the correct things that request for anger, and practically discussion, learning and a counter of fake claims, such things aren't taught in schools and such things many people don't use on their beliefs. Beliefs aren't supposed to just be expressed, or endeared for their fascinating power, but tested. The human brain gets very creative, it is better for it to not be allowed to endlessly go on on certain theories. The problem is most ppl aren't rational. Most are ruled by their emotions. Unfortunately, it seems the inmates are ruling the asylum. There is a tension here between 'what you believe' and rationality.  Rationality is obviously not enough. Interpersonal relationships are not merely rational. Atheists abhor the clergy and the use of religion to badger and browbeat, not without some justification, but go too far and become fetishist of a arrow, rationalistic dogma that they use, in turn, to badger and browbeat. Tales, myths, parables, literature, poetry have great and powerful illumination power that mere rationality doesn't. Atheism goes to far in its revolt, like all revolts.

I think that the existence of scientific based atheism is proof enough to point that logic is deeply satisfying and enough. I won't expect some people to be able to believe it, but that's another story.

Atheism doesn't necessitate to equal or replace interpersonal relationships, much like religious beliefs don't.

Myths are in part based on rational truth. That is how they can even come close to the truth and illumination. otherwise, how could they?

I enjoy witchcraft spells and magic, but I don't have to believe in Witchcraft to be able to enjoy it, or for it to be true or believed. I can believe from noticing that some of it that is giving me components of usefulness while discrediting the general supernatural idea that is highly unlikely to be true based on what proof there is.

At the same time, I can be disgusted with Witchcraft as a religious belief because it brings people away from the truth and takes from them once it is taken seriously.

LucyFur wrote on Jan 15^th, 2023 at 11:52pm:

Jasin wrote on Jan 15th, 2023 at 9:26pm: You two (Lucy & Steve) are good. I wonder what Sappho would think of... The Bad Life - Atheist Style? Night-Clubbing with a length of wood any Christian on a dance floor? Exclusive. Every Sunday at Atheistic church. Spare the intelligent ones to take care of the poor unicorn that has been undermined with human superiority. "Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib? Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee? Wilt thou trust him, because his strength is great? or wilt thou leave thy labour to him? Wilt thou believe him, that he will bring home thy seed, and gather it into thy barn?" - Job 39:9-12

God Questions Job About Several Animals

The Wild Goats and Deer (Job 39:1-4)

The Wild Donkey (Job 39:5-8)

The Wild Ox (Unicorn) (Job 39:9-12

The Ostrich (Job 39:13-18)

The Horse (Job 39:19-25)

The Hawk (Job 39:26)

The Eagle (Job 39:27-30)

LucyFur wrote on Jan 16^th, 2023 at 12:55am:

Frank wrote on Jan 15th, 2023 at 9:54pm: iSteveSteve wrote on Jan 15th, 2023 at 9:08pm: LucyFur wrote on Jan 15th, 2023 at 8:46pm: The good life is aiming to be true to what you believe and seeking to believe the most accurate version, as well as acknowledging your faults, to be as logical as possible and as skeptical as possible, for a sustainable conclusion, but also to be enjoying life and yourself without unnecessary rules that tested against all kinds of results and information can be discarded as people's talk. But to avoid the irritation with the flow of the masses, the mass brainwash of religion indoctrination and the horrible things that happen within that and within the brain while they are under its influence, acceptance is sometimes required, tolerance, anger with the correct things that request for anger, and practically discussion, learning and a counter of fake claims, such things aren't taught in schools and such things many people don't use on their beliefs. Beliefs aren't supposed to just be expressed, or endeared for their fascinating power, but tested. The human brain gets very creative, it is better for it to not be allowed to endlessly go on on certain theories. The problem is most ppl aren't rational. Most are ruled by their emotions. Unfortunately, it seems the inmates are ruling the asylum. There is a tension here between 'what you believe' and rationality.  Rationality is obviously not enough. Interpersonal relationships are not merely rational. Atheists abhor the clergy and the use of religion to badger and browbeat, not without some justification, but go too far and become fetishist of a arrow, rationalistic dogma that they use, in turn, to badger and browbeat. Tales, myths, parables, literature, poetry have great and powerful illumination power that mere rationality doesn't. Atheism goes to far in its revolt, like all revolts. I think that the existence of scientific based atheism is proof enough to point that logic is deeply satisfying and enough. I won't expect some people to be able to believe it, but that's another story. Atheism doesn't necessitate to equal or replace interpersonal relationships, much like religious beliefs don't. Myths are in part based on rational truth. That is how they can even come close to the truth and illumination. otherwise, how could they? I enjoy witchcraft spells and magic, but I don't have to believe in Witchcraft to be able to enjoy it, or for it to be true or believed. I can believe from noticing that some of it that is giving me components of usefulness while discrediting the general supernatural idea that is highly unlikely to be true based on what proof there is. At the same time, I can be disgusted with Witchcraft as a religious belief because it brings people away from the truth and takes from them once it is taken seriously.

I won't attempt to untangle the contradictions in the above but allow to compliment you on your forum name LUCY FURR. Now that's seriously clever.

Aha. I didn't pick that up. Lou Cifre (to quote a movie character as well).

I once watched a nice little experiment to show the Religious and the Atheist aspects in the innocence of untainted children.
>> The first group of children were told they must hit the fuzzy target-bullseye with the velcro balls from behind a line while throwing them blindly back facing board. Hidden camera's showed that the kids forgo the line and failure to hit the fuzzy target board by looking, picking up the missed velcro balls and placing them on the Board. No-one told them they couldn't and they did everything to succeed.
>> The second group were told the same. But a chair was put in a room and told an invisible person sat there to keep an eye on them and watch them do it. Of course, none of the kids could get the velcro balls onto the fuzzy target and none crossed the line or turned around, etc.

I leave these two aspects up to you all to interpret.

This experiment was done often with the rare exceptions that some kids in the first phase would not turn around, cross the line, pick up the velcro balls and place them on the target. That some kids in the second phase would not 'believe' there was an invisible person on the chair watching over them and turn around, cross the line and pick up the missed velcro balls to succeed in putting them on the target.

Was there a reward system or punishment threat involved?
No upon both experiments.

Frank wrote on Jan 15^th, 2023 at 9:54pm:

...Atheists abhor the clergy and the use of religion to badger and browbeat, not without some justification, but go too far and become fetishist of a narrow, rationalistic dogma that they use, in turn, to badger and browbeat. Tales, myths, parables, literature, poetry have great and powerful illumination power that mere rationality doesn't. Atheism goes to far in its revolt, like all revolts.

As a lifelong atheist, I do not "abhor" religion and the clergy who
enforce it.    That's too strong a word.   I think religion—which is
simply a coordinated belief by many ignorant people that supernatural
entities (gods) and paranormal phenomenon (miracles) actually exist
in the real world—is an archaic, long out of date, nonsensical, and
an even dangerous practice that has absolutely zero relevance in an
educated, scientifically enlightened 21st century society.

I'm certainly not a "fetishist"—I don't have any irrational devotion,
or commitment to atheism as do theists.

I am a rationalist;  I regard reason and logic, intelligent thinking, and
a lack of emotion as critical to forming a world view and as supporting
moral and ethical codes.  And atheists have no dogma.

Religion on the other hand eschews reason and logic and science.  Its
entire raison d'être is based on legend, superstition, fantasy, delusion,
and credulity.   And it's all wrapped up in a single book—1,200 pages
of religious dogma that define the very day-to-day existence of its
adherents, all enforced at the risk of suffering some eternal damnation
should they err from the "true path" of their fairy-story god.

And last but not least, I've never ever badgered or browbeaten someone
in the name of atheism.  Unlike the offensive bible-bashers that turn up
on my doorstep with their pathetic pamphlets and their syrupy smiles.

LucyFur wrote on Jan 16^th, 2023 at 12:55am:

Frank wrote on Jan 15th, 2023 at 9:54pm: iSteveSteve wrote on Jan 15th, 2023 at 9:08pm: LucyFur wrote on Jan 15th, 2023 at 8:46pm: The good life is aiming to be true to what you believe and seeking to believe the most accurate version, as well as acknowledging your faults, to be as logical as possible and as skeptical as possible, for a sustainable conclusion, but also to be enjoying life and yourself without unnecessary rules that tested against all kinds of results and information can be discarded as people's talk. But to avoid the irritation with the flow of the masses, the mass brainwash of religion indoctrination and the horrible things that happen within that and within the brain while they are under its influence, acceptance is sometimes required, tolerance, anger with the correct things that request for anger, and practically discussion, learning and a counter of fake claims, such things aren't taught in schools and such things many people don't use on their beliefs. Beliefs aren't supposed to just be expressed, or endeared for their fascinating power, but tested. The human brain gets very creative, it is better for it to not be allowed to endlessly go on on certain theories. The problem is most ppl aren't rational. Most are ruled by their emotions. Unfortunately, it seems the inmates are ruling the asylum. There is a tension here between 'what you believe' and rationality.  Rationality is obviously not enough. Interpersonal relationships are not merely rational. Atheists abhor the clergy and the use of religion to badger and browbeat, not without some justification, but go too far and become fetishist of a arrow, rationalistic dogma that they use, in turn, to badger and browbeat. Tales, myths, parables, literature, poetry have great and powerful illumination power that mere rationality doesn't. Atheism goes to far in its revolt, like all revolts. I think that the existence of scientific based atheism is proof enough to point that logic is deeply satisfying and enough. I won't expect some people to be able to believe it, but that's another story. Atheism doesn't necessitate to equal or replace interpersonal relationships, much like religious beliefs don't. Myths are in part based on rational truth. That is how they can even come close to the truth and illumination. otherwise, how could they? I enjoy witchcraft spells and magic, but I don't have to believe in Witchcraft to be able to enjoy it, or for it to be true or believed. I can believe from noticing that some of it that is giving me components of usefulness while discrediting the general supernatural idea that is highly unlikely to be true based on what proof there is. At the same time, I can be disgusted with Witchcraft as a religious belief because it brings people away from the truth and takes from them once it is taken seriously.

Tales, myths, parables, literature, essays, poetry have great and powerful illumination power neither rationality nor witchcraft/magic/superstitions have.

Tales, myths, parables (see Greek mythology as well as Biblical stories) illuminate psychological dimensions of human life more interestingly than mere statistics-based scientific psychology or modern political 'science'.

Psychoanalysis, at bottom, is an imaginative, literary enterprise first and foremost - that is to say, imaginative, creative - with two authors, the analyst and the analysant, than a rational/scientific process.
Atheism is a revolt, I think, against clericalism and the cleric-created idea of God. 

AusGeoff wrote on Jan 17^th, 2023 at 3:53am:

Frank wrote on Jan 15th, 2023 at 9:54pm: ...Atheists abhor the clergy and the use of religion to badger and browbeat, not without some justification, but go too far and become fetishist of a narrow, rationalistic dogma that they use, in turn, to badger and browbeat. Tales, myths, parables, literature, poetry have great and powerful illumination power that mere rationality doesn't. Atheism goes to far in its revolt, like all revolts. As a lifelong atheist, I do not "abhor" religion and the clergy who enforce it.    That's too strong a word.   I think religion—which is simply ( :D) a coordinated belief by many ignorant people that supernatural entities (gods) and paranormal phenomenon (miracles) actually exist in the real world—is an archaic, long out of date, nonsensical, and an even dangerous practice that has absolutely zero relevance in an educated, scientifically enlightened 21st century society. I'm certainly not a "fetishist"—I don't have any irrational devotion, or commitment to atheism as do theists. I am a rationalist;  I regard reason and logic, intelligent thinking, and a lack of emotion as critical to forming a world view and as supporting moral and ethical codes.  And atheists have no dogma. Religion on the other hand eschews reason and logic and science.  Its entire raison d'être is based on legend, superstition, fantasy, delusion, and credulity.   And it's all wrapped up in a single book—1,200 pages of religious dogma that define the very day-to-day existence of its adherents, all enforced at the risk of suffering some eternal damnation should they err from the "true path" of their fairy-story god. And last but not least, I've never ever badgered or browbeaten someone in the name of atheism.  Unlike the offensive bible-bashers that turn up on my doorstep with their pathetic pamphlets and their syrupy smiles.

"A rather virulent kind of atheism stalked the land. An atheist is someone who not only believes that God doesn't  exist but also someone who thinks that those who do believe in a God are simpletons or idiots".

https://youtu.be/Br8m2S98HU4

AusGeoff wrote on Jan 17^th, 2023 at 3:53am:

Frank wrote on Jan 15th, 2023 at 9:54pm: ...Atheists abhor the clergy and the use of religion to badger and browbeat, not without some justification, but go too far and become fetishist of a narrow, rationalistic dogma that they use, in turn, to badger and browbeat. Tales, myths, parables, literature, poetry have great and powerful illumination power that mere rationality doesn't. Atheism goes to far in its revolt, like all revolts. As a lifelong atheist, I do not "abhor" religion and the clergy who enforce it.    That's too strong a word.   I think religion—which is simply a coordinated belief by many ignorant people that supernatural entities (gods) and paranormal phenomenon (miracles) actually exist in the real world—is an archaic, long out of date, nonsensical, and an even dangerous practice that has absolutely zero relevance in an educated, scientifically enlightened 21st century society. I'm certainly not a "fetishist"—I don't have any irrational devotion, or commitment to atheism as do theists. I am a rationalist;  I regard reason and logic, intelligent thinking, and a lack of emotion as critical to forming a world view and as supporting moral and ethical codes.  And atheists have no dogma. Religion on the other hand eschews reason and logic and science.  Its entire raison d'être is based on legend, superstition, fantasy, delusion, and credulity.   And it's all wrapped up in a single book—1,200 pages of religious dogma that define the very day-to-day existence of its adherents, all enforced at the risk of suffering some eternal damnation should they err from the "true path" of their fairy-story god. And last but not least, I've never ever badgered or browbeaten someone in the name of atheism.  Unlike the offensive bible-bashers that turn up on my doorstep with their pathetic pamphlets and their syrupy smiles.

Are you contemptuous of all religions, from Aboriginal Dreaming and religion to Taoism, Buddhism, or only of Christianity of white Europeans?
Would you be so strident with Christian Africans, Christian gays, Christian Asians? Animistic Africans?
Atheists like you seem to be bogged down in Biblical religion, ignoring all others.

Watch out Lucy. I'm into Sign Craft... it's the opposite of Witch Craft. :D

Frank wrote on Jan 17^th, 2023 at 10:40am:

AusGeoff wrote on Jan 17th, 2023 at 3:53am: Frank wrote on Jan 15th, 2023 at 9:54pm: ...Atheists abhor the clergy and the use of religion to badger and browbeat, not without some justification, but go too far and become fetishist of a narrow, rationalistic dogma that they use, in turn, to badger and browbeat. Tales, myths, parables, literature, poetry have great and powerful illumination power that mere rationality doesn't. Atheism goes to far in its revolt, like all revolts. As a lifelong atheist, I do not "abhor" religion and the clergy who enforce it.    That's too strong a word.   I think religion—which is simply ( :D) a coordinated belief by many ignorant people that supernatural entities (gods) and paranormal phenomenon (miracles) actually exist in the real world—is an archaic, long out of date, nonsensical, and an even dangerous practice that has absolutely zero relevance in an educated, scientifically enlightened 21st century society. I'm certainly not a "fetishist"—I don't have any irrational devotion, or commitment to atheism as do theists. I am a rationalist;  I regard reason and logic, intelligent thinking, and a lack of emotion as critical to forming a world view and as supporting moral and ethical codes.  And atheists have no dogma. Religion on the other hand eschews reason and logic and science.  Its entire raison d'être is based on legend, superstition, fantasy, delusion, and credulity.   And it's all wrapped up in a single book—1,200 pages of religious dogma that define the very day-to-day existence of its adherents, all enforced at the risk of suffering some eternal damnation should they err from the "true path" of their fairy-story god. And last but not least, I've never ever badgered or browbeaten someone in the name of atheism.  Unlike the offensive bible-bashers that turn up on my doorstep with their pathetic pamphlets and their syrupy smiles. "A rather virulent kind of atheism stalked the land. An atheist is someone who not only believes that God doesn't  exist but also someone who thinks that those who do believe in a God are simpletons or idiots". Media

Actually my belief is that we are all idiots on a daily basis. No exceptions and no fake humbleness.

My belief is that all people have the capacity [unless incapacitated] to use reason and logic but most won't and need to learn and exercise how to. To quote myself, schools don't teach us this essential aspect and used to indoctrinate people. What is known as 'Going through the work, Digging through the manuscripts and combing through the words' and 'Id argue that you're no closer than ever, path costs life, Total mastery is extra' - The Master Paradox as a Master, song by Greydon Square; this is just a fragment of my beliefs.

I would of expected to be thought highly of when I was illogical and didn't want to admit or couldn't believe better yet, not by the peer pressure who go with the flow [and I think most people do] but by the important people in my life, but that doesn't mean that my belief was logical or that the people who agreed were helping me question the premise besides satisfying my ego and encouraging living in a web of lies. There are many ways to satisfy my type of ego, and it is not limited to being illogically groomed. If I had issues with not being groomed all the time that would interfere with the ability to think. Half brained [the children] don't have the same capacities to logically think [there are some prodigy exceptions with better abilities but still children in many aspects]. The balance of information, genuinity and feeling.

When we read stories we get feelings. By believing these stories, these feelings stick with us throughout the life as we believe we are living the fairytale. It is an illusion. Just like schizophrenia delusions give powerful feelings to the host and movies transfer us into the scene giving us feelings. The stories we tell ourselves and that we believe will have powerful effects on the way we feel and our path of life. 

This belief is very common in the atheistic world, but so many people don't know anything about us and claim we are thinking the Christian brain is inferior and it cannot do more. No, it can. It's just not being used. Still there are times when the brain is not being used even when the path points to illumination. It's just humanity. Humanity is a disease.

Like in Matrix the movie, humans are better compared to a Virus, it breeds unalike any other mammal.

Jasin wrote on Jan 17^th, 2023 at 3:12am:

Aha. I didn't pick that up. Lou Cifre (to quote a movie character as well). I once watched a nice little experiment to show the Religious and the Atheist aspects in the innocence of untainted children. >> The first group of children were told they must hit the fuzzy target-bullseye with the velcro balls from behind a line while throwing them blindly back facing board. Hidden camera's showed that the kids forgo the line and failure to hit the fuzzy target board by looking, picking up the missed velcro balls and placing them on the Board. No-one told them they couldn't and they did everything to succeed. >> The second group were told the same. But a chair was put in a room and told an invisible person sat there to keep an eye on them and watch them do it. Of course, none of the kids could get the velcro balls onto the fuzzy target and none crossed the line or turned around, etc. I leave these two aspects up to you all to interpret. This experiment was done often with the rare exceptions that some kids in the first phase would not turn around, cross the line, pick up the velcro balls and place them on the target. That some kids in the second phase would not 'believe' there was an invisible person on the chair watching over them and turn around, cross the line and pick up the missed velcro balls to succeed in putting them on the target. Was there a reward system or punishment threat involved? No upon both experiments.

Interesting name, I can't find it on Google. Do you remember the name of the movie?

And people still want children in their homes.  :o it works just as well if Santa Claus [Daddy] isn't gonna give gifts. Santa is not as much a tyrant to burn them for eternity.

Jasin wrote on Jan 17^th, 2023 at 2:41pm:

Watch out Lucy. I'm into Sign Craft... it's the opposite of Witch Craft. :D

Very useful talent seeing how many times it takes us to sign up for this site. I'll be watching you, dare not make your signs any grander.

LucyFur wrote on Jan 25^th, 2023 at 7:11pm:

Jasin wrote on Jan 17th, 2023 at 3:12am: Aha. I didn't pick that up. Lou Cifre (to quote a movie character as well). I once watched a nice little experiment to show the Religious and the Atheist aspects in the innocence of untainted children. >> The first group of children were told they must hit the fuzzy target-bullseye with the velcro balls from behind a line while throwing them blindly back facing board. Hidden camera's showed that the kids forgo the line and failure to hit the fuzzy target board by looking, picking up the missed velcro balls and placing them on the Board. No-one told them they couldn't and they did everything to succeed. >> The second group were told the same. But a chair was put in a room and told an invisible person sat there to keep an eye on them and watch them do it. Of course, none of the kids could get the velcro balls onto the fuzzy target and none crossed the line or turned around, etc. I leave these two aspects up to you all to interpret. This experiment was done often with the rare exceptions that some kids in the first phase would not turn around, cross the line, pick up the velcro balls and place them on the target. That some kids in the second phase would not 'believe' there was an invisible person on the chair watching over them and turn around, cross the line and pick up the missed velcro balls to succeed in putting them on the target. Was there a reward system or punishment threat involved? No upon both experiments. Interesting name, I can't find it on Google. Do you remember the name of the movie? And people still want children in their homes.  :o it works just as well if Santa Claus [Daddy] isn't gonna give gifts. Santa is not as much a tyrant to burn them for eternity.

The movie is Angel Heart where Robert De Niro plays Louis Cyphre (Lou-cy-phre).

As for Santa. Well he was just some Finnish dude who used to nibble on the same forest mushrooms the reindeer ate. He would get high on his magic sleigh while the reindeer bumped into trees to get red noses. The rest is history like a fish tale told again and again to suit the teller.

LucyFur wrote on Jan 25^th, 2023 at 8:32pm:

Jasin wrote on Jan 17th, 2023 at 2:41pm: Watch out Lucy. I'm into Sign Craft... it's the opposite of Witch Craft. :D Very useful talent seeing how many times it takes us to sign up for this site. I'll be watching you, dare not make your signs any grander.

The Forum is all good. As I predicted, it was a BOT invasion and overload. FD has apologised and rectified the problem - which was not his fault.

Ha. Well the first 'sign' you're looking at a Sign Crafter is that they aren't your typical 'Down Under' (America) aussie. More like they're a 'Day Ahead' (of America).  ;)

<TIME>

Hi Steve(stutter)Steve & Lucifer.

What do you guys think of Crop Circles? No, I don't think Aliens from another world made them, etc. What do you think of them as a form of Art?

Jasin wrote on Jan 27^th, 2023 at 5:38pm:

Hi Steve(stutter)Steve & Lucifer. What do you guys think of Crop Circles? No, I don't think Aliens from another world made them, etc. What do you think of them as a form of Art?

He did say I made him sound like he stutters when I made that name up.  ;D I used up all the Steve names on the site until an email was received. We made plenty mistakes. At least now it's clear we're not bots. No bot, cat or dog can make it through those questions.

It takes a lot of work, crop art. I really like gardening and I prefer the green art. Like the Kamala Harris piece.

Jasin wrote on Jan 27^th, 2023 at 5:38pm:

Hi Steve(stutter)Steve & Lucifer. What do you guys think of Crop Circles? No, I don't think Aliens from another world made them, etc. What do you think of them as a form of Art?

I don't know anything about them.
I constantly watch the news, btw.

BTW, I was going to give this site a miss because of all the trouble trying to log in. Thankfully it has been sorted out.

LucyFur wrote on Jan 25^th, 2023 at 6:40pm:

[quote author=Frank link=1310014407/63#63 date=1673916009] Actually my belief is that we are all idiots on a daily basis. No exceptions and no fake humbleness.

Most ppl seem to be poor in critical thinking skills.

iSteveSteve wrote on Feb 10^th, 2023 at 6:34pm:

Jasin wrote on Jan 27th, 2023 at 5:38pm: Hi Steve(stutter)Steve & Lucifer. What do you guys think of Crop Circles? No, I don't think Aliens from another world made them, etc. What do you think of them as a form of Art? I don't know anything about them. I constantly watch the news, btw.

I definitely know all which crop circles entail. *sarcasm*

Within my religion we can dance around them and chant, lol. That oughta scare the aliens.

Interesting you two.
You have a Religion?
...is it in Writing?

Spirituality - it's a 'fashionable' thing. True or False??

AusGeoff wrote on Jan 17^th, 2023 at 3:53am:

As a lifelong atheist, I do not "abhor" religion and the clergy who enforce it.    That's too strong a word.   I think religion—which is simply a coordinated belief by many ignorant people that supernatural entities (gods) and paranormal phenomenon (miracles) actually exist in the real world

I was brought up as a religious person.
I came to my senses at around 20.

I see religion as a tool to instil a sense of morality in children.
It is a temporary thing and I would expect most ppl grow out of it when their cognitive brain fully develops.

Jasin wrote on Feb 10^th, 2023 at 6:52pm:

Interesting you two. You have a Religion? ...is it in Writing? Spirituality - it's a 'fashionable' thing. True or False??

My "religion" is pure hardcore atheism.

Jasin wrote on Feb 10^th, 2023 at 6:52pm:

Interesting you two. You have a Religion? ...is it in Writing? Spirituality - it's a 'fashionable' thing. True or False??

I like some of what Wicca is about but it's not a religion I believe in. It's just closer to my heart but I'm an atheist, a non-believer and do not follow customs religiously from any religion per se. I also like how some of its modus vivandi compare to LaVeyan satanism and I would quote the following:

'LaVey's teachings promoted "indulgence", "vital existence", "undefiled wisdom", "kindness to those who deserve it", "responsibility to the responsible", and an "eye for an eye" code of ethics, while shunning "abstinence" based on guilt, "spirituality", "unconditional love", "pacifism", "equality", "herd mentality", and "scapegoating". LaVey envisioned a Satanist as a carnal, physical, and pragmatic being. The core values of LaVey Satanism are the enjoyment of physical existence, and undiluted naturalism that sees mankind as animals that exist in an amoral universe'

which is pretty accurate to a good flow of human life within the world.

Religion has/had many purposes besides literacy.
For Orphans - God the Father was their saving grace to follow.
Just like Ulysses was told "Go find your Father".

For others, it was a Moral Code to follow in the face of the ever growing 'Military' and the bloodshed that it spilled as Farming forced many to raid other people's harvests, if theirs failed.

One could say that Judaism (the Oldest Book) is about Youth and the Fall from the Garden.
Christianity is like Adulthood and the double-helix of both man and woman.
Mohommedism is like Old Age (the youngest book) and the Rise back into the Garden.
...hence why many fail to mature properly and go through each ritual as 'conversion' is seen as blasphemy, etc with much violence.

Very few, are able to see the true value of going through the full ritual of all three monotheisms.
This is why some people in religion - just can't grow up.

I see. So both being Atheists. Would you consider Atheism as 'Anti' Religion for want of being 'Pro' something else?

LucyFur wrote on Feb 10^th, 2023 at 6:54pm:

Jasin wrote on Feb 10th, 2023 at 6:52pm: Interesting you two. You have a Religion? ...is it in Writing? Spirituality - it's a 'fashionable' thing. True or False?? Well I like some of what Wicca is about but it's not a religion I believe in. It's just closer to my heart but I'm an atheist, a non-believer.

Wicca is cool.

LucyFur wrote on Feb 10^th, 2023 at 6:54pm:

Jasin wrote on Feb 10th, 2023 at 6:52pm: Interesting you two. You have a Religion? ...is it in Writing? Spirituality - it's a 'fashionable' thing. True or False?? I like some of what Wicca is about but it's not a religion I believe in. It's just closer to my heart but I'm an atheist, a non-believer and do not follow customs religiously from any religion per se. I also like how some of its modus vivandi compare to LaVeyan satanism and I would quote the following: 'LaVey's teachings promoted "indulgence", "vital existence", "undefiled wisdom", "kindness to those who deserve it", "responsibility to the responsible", and an "eye for an eye" code of ethics, while shunning "abstinence" based on guilt, "spirituality", "unconditional love", "pacifism", "equality", "herd mentality", and "scapegoating". LaVey envisioned a Satanist as a carnal, physical, and pragmatic being. The core values of LaVey Satanism are the enjoyment of physical existence, and undiluted naturalism that sees mankind as animals that exist in an amoral universe' which is pretty accurate to a good flow of human life within the world.

I have to add that Xtians stole their holidays from the pagans and took credit for them meanwhile bashing Paganism, what a disgrace.

Jesus was so strong a savior in human eyes that it was also able to abolish fear of some mythical creatures like the almost immortal vampires, werewolves and invisible ghosts\evil spirits.

Then again the Buddhist practice of meditation has shown blood pressure and respiratory frequency decrease, as well as being the most peaceful religion in the world, however the downside of the Wheel of Becoming they believe in can be detrimental to the plans they make especially with scientific proof not pointing it's even true. Making plans based on no evidence.

Jasin wrote on Feb 10^th, 2023 at 7:02pm:

I see. So both being Atheists. Would you consider Atheism as 'Anti' Religion for want of being 'Pro' something else?

Hmm? I feel like I asked the question "What is a Woman?"  :-/

LucyFur wrote on Feb 10^th, 2023 at 8:09pm:

LucyFur wrote on Feb 10th, 2023 at 6:54pm: Jasin wrote on Feb 10th, 2023 at 6:52pm: Interesting you two. You have a Religion? ...is it in Writing? Spirituality - it's a 'fashionable' thing. True or False?? I like some of what Wicca is about but it's not a religion I believe in. It's just closer to my heart but I'm an atheist, a non-believer and do not follow customs religiously from any religion per se. I also like how some of its modus vivandi compare to LaVeyan satanism and I would quote the following: 'LaVey's teachings promoted "indulgence", "vital existence", "undefiled wisdom", "kindness to those who deserve it", "responsibility to the responsible", and an "eye for an eye" code of ethics, while shunning "abstinence" based on guilt, "spirituality", "unconditional love", "pacifism", "equality", "herd mentality", and "scapegoating". LaVey envisioned a Satanist as a carnal, physical, and pragmatic being. The core values of LaVey Satanism are the enjoyment of physical existence, and undiluted naturalism that sees mankind as animals that exist in an amoral universe' which is pretty accurate to a good flow of human life within the world. I have to add that Xtians stole their holidays from the pagans and took credit for them meanwhile bashing Paganism, what a disgrace. Jesus was so strong a savior in human eyes that it was also able to abolish fear of some mythical creatures like the almost immortal vampires, werewolves and invisible ghosts\evil spirits. Then again the Buddhist practice of meditation has shown blood pressure and respiratory frequency decrease, as well as being the most peaceful religion in the world, however the downside of the Wheel of Becoming they believe in can be detrimental to the plans they make especially with scientific proof not pointing it's even true. Making plans based on no evidence.

True. Paganism was the foundation of Religion and yet Religion denies the very foundation it was built upon.
Like Humans who deny they were decended from Apes, etc.

Jasin wrote on Feb 10^th, 2023 at 7:02pm:

I see. So both being Atheists. Would you consider Atheism as 'Anti' Religion for want of being 'Pro' something else?

That wouldn't be necessary if you want to be pro so mething else that you have to be anti something, and there are atheists who both are anti religion and who believe it's not particularly damaging or bad.

I lean more towards anti and much like jeans are commonly of use to people it needn't be taken as the only or best choice, I see it as not unable to live without and a barrier in life since human beings are gullible with it and it is counter-morality and modern knowledge. To flourish you need to get rid of it, replace it with something sustainable logically and that provides more practicality.

Jasin wrote on Feb 10^th, 2023 at 7:01pm:

Religion has/had many purposes besides literacy. For Orphans - God the Father was their saving grace to follow. Just like Ulysses was told "Go find your Father". For others, it was a Moral Code to follow in the face of the ever growing 'Military' and the bloodshed that it spilled as Farming forced many to raid other people's harvests, if theirs failed. One could say that Judaism (the Oldest Book) is about Youth and the Fall from the Garden. Christianity is like Adulthood and the double-helix of both man and woman. Mohommedism is like Old Age (the youngest book) and the Rise back into the Garden. ...hence why many fail to mature properly and go through each ritual as 'conversion' is seen as blasphemy, etc with much violence. Very few, are able to see the true value of going through the full ritual of all three monotheisms. This is why some people in religion - just can't grow up.

Whether good or bad, religion has served important purposes, causing wars among people and also causing oppresion and forcing their beliefs onto others.

'Human beings are oh so deceivable, oh so promiscuous with what's believable' - Baba Brinkman in Confessions of a Skeptic

The best I can see of what Atheism is 'Pro' about - is Science and the Media. I honestly don't see many like this though.
Mostly it is 'Anti-Religious'. Why chase a weakness, when you can follow a strength? - is my personal motto.
I guess at first I was Atheist, but it left me with nothing but a dislike, hatred or just plain 'anti' against Religion. It wasn't until SignCraft came along, that I was filled with something to be 'Pro' about and I could forget about the bitterness against Religion. In the end, SignCraft (or for some - Paganism, Animism or WitchCraft) kinda helped me find a new 'respect' for Religion and what is means to many, as I no longer 'feared' any possible control over me.

I find also that Religion is basically 'Writing/Reading' and all things 'Book'. While Atheism is slowly accepting Music and besides Choral Music, I find most Religious music kinda suck like Military Bands  :P.

So now I no longer say I'm Atheist to some door-knocking Protestant or some hide-away Catholic but that I 'prefer Music' or 'prefer Science' instead. It kinda voids them trying to fill my bucket with their Religion, when they see it is empty - now that they see it is full of something else.

Jasin wrote on Feb 11^th, 2023 at 6:09am:

The best I can see of what Atheism is 'Pro' about - is Science and the Media. I honestly don't see many like this though. Mostly it is 'Anti-Religious'. Why chase a weakness, when you can follow a strength? - is my personal motto. I guess at first I was Atheist, but it left me with nothing but a dislike, hatred or just plain 'anti' against Religion. It wasn't until SignCraft came along, that I was filled with something to be 'Pro' about and I could forget about the bitterness against Religion. In the end, SignCraft (or for some - Paganism, Animism or WitchCraft) kinda helped me find a new 'respect' for Religion and what is means to many, as I no longer 'feared' any possible control over me. I find also that Religion is basically 'Writing/Reading' and all things 'Book'. While Atheism is slowly accepting Music and besides Choral Music, I find most Religious music kinda suck like Military Bands  :P. So now I no longer say I'm Atheist to some door-knocking Protestant or some hide-away Catholic but that I 'prefer Music' or 'prefer Science' instead. It kinda voids them trying to fill my bucket with their Religion, when they see it is empty - now that they see it is full of something else.

That brings me back to an experience when my mom let the priest in and he would not leave my room trying to convince me to become religious and moistening my scalp against my will. I have never been treated with less respect.

You're lucky he wasn't Hindu or he would have left a red spot on your forehead.

Is this you iSteveSteve??
https://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1195442505/6#6

Jasin wrote on Feb 11^th, 2023 at 6:09am:

Mostly it is 'Anti-Religious'. Why chase a weakness, when you can follow a strength? - is my personal motto.

Nietzche called Christianity a "slave philosophy".
I tend to agree.

Jasin wrote on Feb 20^th, 2023 at 9:53pm:

Is this you iSteveSteve??

I admit to dark magic but I claim none of that.
Saph replied recently on her account, in this thread, furthermore.

Just because we're both powerful atheist women does not mean we are the only existing atheistic women, fortunately for the sake of deep realization of the logical world. I was happy enough to select her very offering thread.

Furthermore I have created Steve's one and only working account, all his others being variations of Steve as a name, as I already suggested, and unusable, which is why I had to continue creating. We had interaction with the forum only very recently beginning with our first posts. I have found this website, and Steve had related to me he has never been on it before. The chances of Steve lying to me whilst using 2 accounts actively are too minimal to consider given his personality, reason and status.

My bad, Saph didn't reply but I got a thanks for something I posted here.

It's unfortunate she left but then again there are better seas to sail, whatever floats their boat. 

iSteveSteve wrote on Feb 24^th, 2023 at 7:55pm:

Jasin wrote on Feb 11th, 2023 at 6:09am: Mostly it is 'Anti-Religious'. Why chase a weakness, when you can follow a strength? - is my personal motto. Nietzche called Christianity a "slave philosophy". I tend to agree.

Oh it is.

Religion from the Middle-East
made Asia copy it.
Kept Africa in the dark (continent)
and enslaved Europe with it.

...you'll find the Media is doing the same to the New Worlds of N.America, S.America and Sahul (us) from its region of Oceania.

@Lucyfur

Dark Magic is like Dark Energy.

Jasin wrote on Feb 24^th, 2023 at 8:33pm:

@Lucyfur Dark Magic is like Dark Energy.

It only expands and you lose control of it. That's why you have to keep on mastering it. Otherwise you might risk making your boyfriend stutter and turn him into a logical beast. And make people ship old members dating each other.

;D ;D

This Topic was moved here from Atheism by freediver.