Been trying to catch this program as much as poss.

Sure way beyond my depth - tonights Final is fascinating. :o

tonights the final? Where what? <runs to check the guide>

think so -
and  could watch the show again and again,  just to get a glimpse of the visions he can envisage. :)

So what's the name of the friggin' show? ;D :'( >:( ;D

oooooooooooooopsss ssoorrrryy :-[ Keep forgetting you're a Westie.

talking QLD SBS1 - Into the Universe With Stephen Hawking.
Tonights program -'The Story Of Everything.'

I watched parts of the show. When he started talking about "dark energy" is what makes the universe expand, it started to sound awfully like religious or highly speculative mumbo-jumbo. What is "dark energy", isn't that just a phrase to replace "God"?

For example, religious folk will say "God makes the universe expand".
The astrophysics will say "dark energy makes the universe expand".

Same thing. It's a mysterious force being described but with a change of words.

Some things are beyond the mind of even Steven Hawking.  Your local checkout chick has as much chance of being 'right' about matters of god as Mr Hawking is, so I wouldn't place too much stock in what he's speculating.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 15^th, 2011 at 10:37am:

. When he started talking about "dark energy" is what makes the universe expand, it started to sound awfully like religious or highly speculative mumbo-jumbo. What is "dark energy", isn't that just a phrase to replace "God"?.

Nothing LIKE  religious  or speculative mumbo-jumbo.  He did say earlier in the program that given the infinite information to be grasped, it may be possible , in the future, that scientists actually discover the unknown power which generated the Universe  -  called GOD by those who live in those terms. (MY WORDS).
Dark energy is what exists where galaxies etc don't, and appeared at the same time as the other forms of energy released at the start of the Universe.

Without it the universe would condense down to a black hole (collapse in on itself)  - it is the space betweens the stars. What we call a vacuum, but in fact it contains all of the energy not already used or being used in the formation of or dissolution of stars and galaxies. Because the Universe is in constant motion and flux. :-?

Emma wrote on Jun 15^th, 2011 at 2:35pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 15th, 2011 at 10:37am: . When he started talking about "dark energy" is what makes the universe expand, it started to sound awfully like religious or highly speculative mumbo-jumbo. What is "dark energy", isn't that just a phrase to replace "God"?. Nothing LIKE  religious  or speculative mumbo-jumbo.  He did say earlier in the program that given the infinite information to be grasped, it may be possible , in the future, that scientists actually discover the unknown power which generated the Universe  -  called GOD by those who live in those terms. (MY WORDS). Dark energy is what exists where galaxies etc don't, and appeared at the same time as the other forms of energy released at the start of the Universe. Without it the universe would condense down to a black hole (collapse in on itself)  - it is the space betweens the stars. What we call a vacuum, but in fact it contains all of the energy not already used or being used in the formation of or dissolution of stars and galaxies. Because the Universe is in constant motion and flux. :-?

Okay. It just sounds like he's posited a mysterious force and then labelled it "dark energy". It's the same type of reasoning that some religious folk use, except with the term God of course. But I think the major difference is that scientists are forever curious to know more about what this "dark energy" might be, whereas religious folk just say "it's God" and leave it at that.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 15^th, 2011 at 5:24pm:

Emma wrote on Jun 15th, 2011 at 2:35pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 15th, 2011 at 10:37am: . When he started talking about "dark energy" is what makes the universe expand, it started to sound awfully like religious or highly speculative mumbo-jumbo. What is "dark energy", isn't that just a phrase to replace "God"?. Nothing LIKE  religious  or speculative mumbo-jumbo.  He did say earlier in the program that given the infinite information to be grasped, it may be possible , in the future, that scientists actually discover the unknown power which generated the Universe  -  called GOD by those who live in those terms. (MY WORDS). Dark energy is what exists where galaxies etc don't, and appeared at the same time as the other forms of energy released at the start of the Universe. Without it the universe would condense down to a black hole (collapse in on itself)  - it is the space betweens the stars. What we call a vacuum, but in fact it contains all of the energy not already used or being used in the formation of or dissolution of stars and galaxies. Because the Universe is in constant motion and flux. :-? Okay. It just sounds like he's posited a mysterious force and then labelled it "dark energy". It's the same type of reasoning that some religious folk use, except with the term God of course. But I think the major difference is that scientists are forever curious to know more about what this "dark energy" might be, whereas religious folk just say "it's God" and leave it at that.

That's hogwash Time. There is and may always be a question mark regarding 'first cause'. The arseholes who start religions exploit this for their own 'power and glory' by filling the void with made up stuff. God/s are a particularly useful trope because it carries the mysticism and authority from previous incarnations even as the story line gets updated; but there is no underlying reality. It's naming an abstraction like 'tinkerbell' in Peter Pan.

Science only names real things, like 'electricity'. 'Dark energy' (or matter) is no more an abstraction  than 'Table'. We need to know more about it and it'll probably be deconstructed in time into constituent parts; but it got named because a name was needed for a thing.

But scientists don't even really know what dark matter is. They call it an unknown power that generated the universe, the space between galaxies, and the force that expands the universe. How is that different from religious expressions of God?

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 15^th, 2011 at 10:37am:

I watched parts of the show. When he started talking about "dark energy" is what makes the universe expand, it started to sound awfully like religious or highly speculative mumbo-jumbo. What is "dark energy", isn't that just a phrase to replace "God"? For example, religious folk will say "God makes the universe expand". The astrophysics will say "dark energy makes the universe expand". Same thing. It's a mysterious force being described but with a change of words.

What the bugger?

An astrophysists will go about designing various experiments to prove or disprove the 'dark matter hypothosis, the religious folk will break out a hymn and wait for death to take them to heaven.

So not the same, not even close.  ;D

BigOl64 wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 4:24pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 15th, 2011 at 10:37am: I watched parts of the show. When he started talking about "dark energy" is what makes the universe expand, it started to sound awfully like religious or highly speculative mumbo-jumbo. What is "dark energy", isn't that just a phrase to replace "God"? For example, religious folk will say "God makes the universe expand". The astrophysics will say "dark energy makes the universe expand". Same thing. It's a mysterious force being described but with a change of words. What the bugger? An astrophysists will go about designing various experiments to prove or disprove the 'dark matter hypothosis, the religious folk will break out a hymn and wait for death to take them to heaven. So not the same, not even close.  ;D

It's exactly the same.  Religious folk interpret things as 'the will of god' whereas scientists interpret them as 'scientific principles.'  All that differs is the terminology.

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 4:13pm:

But scientists don't even really know what dark matter is. They call it an unknown power that generated the universe, the space between galaxies, and the force that expands the universe. How is that different from religious expressions of God?

Once upon a time, humans did not know what Atoms were, but they named them as such anyway. It was reasoning with current knowledge that caused humans to determine that there must be a thing that is the smallest constituent of the universe and of which we were all made. They called this an Atom.

A couple of thousand years latter, we found that Atom and equally found that the atom was made of even smaller constituent parts.

I'll come back to this latter. But essentially, we reason that dark matter and energy exist because Einstein's Relativity theory does not ensure enough matter or energy in the universe to justify the expanding universe.

More on that after dinner.  

BigOl64 wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 4:24pm:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 15th, 2011 at 10:37am: I watched parts of the show. When he started talking about "dark energy" is what makes the universe expand, it started to sound awfully like religious or highly speculative mumbo-jumbo. What is "dark energy", isn't that just a phrase to replace "God"? For example, religious folk will say "God makes the universe expand". The astrophysics will say "dark energy makes the universe expand". Same thing. It's a mysterious force being described but with a change of words. What the bugger? An astrophysists will go about designing various experiments to prove or disprove the 'dark matter hypothosis, the religious folk will break out a hymn and wait for death to take them to heaven. So not the same, not even close.  ;D

Forget the labels - dark matter, god - and look at the underlying phenomena they're trying to describe. It's not of human origin is it. It's some "force" or "energy" that supposedly is operating in the universe. The only thing that differs between the religious and scientific explanations of the universe here is the labels they put on it; the underlying phenomena is exactly the same.

... wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 4:29pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 4:24pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 15th, 2011 at 10:37am: I watched parts of the show. When he started talking about "dark energy" is what makes the universe expand, it started to sound awfully like religious or highly speculative mumbo-jumbo. What is "dark energy", isn't that just a phrase to replace "God"? For example, religious folk will say "God makes the universe expand". The astrophysics will say "dark energy makes the universe expand". Same thing. It's a mysterious force being described but with a change of words. What the bugger? An astrophysists will go about designing various experiments to prove or disprove the 'dark matter hypothosis, the religious folk will break out a hymn and wait for death to take them to heaven. So not the same, not even close.  ;D It's exactly the same.  Religious folk interpret things as 'the will of god' whereas scientists interpret them as 'scientific principles.'  All that differs is the terminology.

No they're not, one group accepts their information based purely on faith the other does not and conducts experiments based on scientific principles to verify their beliefs (hypothoses).

Science and religion are nothing alike in how they interpret and base their beliefs.

BigOl64 wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 4:41pm:

... wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 4:29pm: BigOl64 wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 4:24pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 15th, 2011 at 10:37am: I watched parts of the show. When he started talking about "dark energy" is what makes the universe expand, it started to sound awfully like religious or highly speculative mumbo-jumbo. What is "dark energy", isn't that just a phrase to replace "God"? For example, religious folk will say "God makes the universe expand". The astrophysics will say "dark energy makes the universe expand". Same thing. It's a mysterious force being described but with a change of words. What the bugger? An astrophysists will go about designing various experiments to prove or disprove the 'dark matter hypothosis, the religious folk will break out a hymn and wait for death to take them to heaven. So not the same, not even close.  ;D It's exactly the same.  Religious folk interpret things as 'the will of god' whereas scientists interpret them as 'scientific principles.'  All that differs is the terminology. No they're not, one group accepts their information based purely on faith the other does not and conducts experiments based on scientific principles to verify their beliefs (hypothoses). Science and religion are nothing alike in how they interpret and base their beliefs.

Simply hypothesizing is a kind of faith, and astrophysicists need to have more faith than most, because they cannot directly observe the phenomena they are trying to explain.  Nobody has ever seen a planet orbiting another star - they are detected by seeing the effect their gravity has on other celestial bodies.  So because they have not been directly observed, it requires faith that their hypothesis is correct.

BigOl64 wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 4:41pm:

... wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 4:29pm: BigOl64 wrote on Jul 7th, 2011 at 4:24pm: Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jun 15th, 2011 at 10:37am: I watched parts of the show. When he started talking about "dark energy" is what makes the universe expand, it started to sound awfully like religious or highly speculative mumbo-jumbo. What is "dark energy", isn't that just a phrase to replace "God"? For example, religious folk will say "God makes the universe expand". The astrophysics will say "dark energy makes the universe expand". Same thing. It's a mysterious force being described but with a change of words. What the bugger? An astrophysists will go about designing various experiments to prove or disprove the 'dark matter hypothosis, the religious folk will break out a hymn and wait for death to take them to heaven. So not the same, not even close.  ;D It's exactly the same.  Religious folk interpret things as 'the will of god' whereas scientists interpret them as 'scientific principles.'  All that differs is the terminology. No they're not, one group accepts their information based purely on faith the other does not and conducts experiments based on scientific principles to verify their beliefs (hypothoses). Science and religion are nothing alike in how they interpret and base their beliefs.

That is correct in most cases, but in this case they still don't really know what dark matter is - hence its positing as a "mysterious force".

It seems the religious folk had the jump on the scientists here.