If a person believes that God does not exist, are they an atheist?

This extraordinarily simple question with a yes/no answer has so perplexed and divided atheists that they have taken to refusing to answer it.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1303676733

This thread has gone to 21 pages so far and some are still holding out on giving an answer.

Muso, in a comparitively brave move, gave an answer upfront only 9 pages in:


muso wrote on Apr 26^th, 2011 at 5:31pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 26th, 2011 at 2:42pm: Helian and Grey, if a person believes that God does not exist, are they an atheist? Why is this question so hard to answer? I don't think it's hard to answer. At least I don't have any stake in the matter, so here goes. A person who believes that Gods don't exist is an Atheist, however an Atheist is not necessarily a person who believes that Gods don't exist. Can you follow that? It's like saying that a dog is an animal, but an animal is not necessarily a dog.

Sappho gave both answers, as is her wont, after first insisting the question is incomprehensible. At least she didn't accuse me of trickery in asking the question:

page 13:


Sappho wrote on Apr 27^th, 2011 at 10:40pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 27th, 2011 at 9:32pm: Helian, Grey and Sappho, if a person believes that God does not exist, are they an atheist? To be honest... I just don't know... I don't know what it means to believe that god does not exist. What does it mean to believe in things that don't exist?

Sappho wrote on Apr 28^th, 2011 at 7:37pm:

So again Freediver... would you do us the honour of explaining what the question actually means... unless of course... even you can't explain the meaning of the question... which your avoidance of an explanation seems to suggest.

page 15:


Sappho wrote on Apr 28^th, 2011 at 8:31pm:

In answer to your question.. "if a person believes that God does not exist, are they an atheist?"... no they would not be atheist. Atheism is not about belief in... it is about not believing in... it is not about an understanding of... it is about a lack of understanding.

page 18:


Sappho wrote on Apr 29^th, 2011 at 10:42pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 29th, 2011 at 6:58pm: Sappho wrote on Apr 28th, 2011 at 10:28pm: freediver wrote on Apr 28th, 2011 at 10:00pm: Quote: [quote]In answer to your question.. "if a person believes that God does not exist, are they an atheist?"... no they would not be atheist. Atheism is not about belief in... it is about not believing in... it is not about an understanding of... it is about a lack of understanding. So what are they then? Irrational fanatics... who also happen to be Atheist.

Interestingly, she also reserves the labels agnostic and atheist for herself, depending on what she is contempalting at the time:


Quote:

When I define my position relative to Theism, I am Athiest. However, what exists or does not exist beyond Theism is unknown to me... so I neither believe nor disbelief... I remain Agnostic

Helian and Grey were the strongest holdouts, and also the two I originally directed the question at.

Grey eventually gave an answer on page 17, perhaps in fear of being left out once muso and Sappho had answered.


Grey wrote on Apr 29^th, 2011 at 9:38pm:

Quote: Helian and Grey, if a person believes that God does not exist, are they an atheist? No, only eloquent people are allowed to be Atheists. If a person knows that the belief they are believing doesn't exist they need a doctor.

In an argument reminiscent of witchcraft accusations, they accused me of a linguistic sleight of hand, though neither could follow through with a rational justification for this accusation, as it lead to another question they had trouble answering - do such people even exist? Grey thinks they are agnostics.

page 20:


Grey wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:10am:

Quote: Do you 'reject' the existence of people who believe that God does not exist? No. Not exactly, but it's a convoluted way of expressing agnosticism. Belief is inextricable from faith. Racism is a belief system. If you believe in god/gods you're not an atheist.

Helian on the other hand is still holding out, but occasionally asks me to skip a few steps ahead in the argument and keep going from there without knowing what happened in the middle.

So we have muso who responded with a quick and simple yes, Sappho who gave both yes and no depending on what she was contemplating at the time, Grey who said no on account of failing the eloquence criteria, and Helian who still refuses to answer on the grounds of linguistic trickery. We also have an interesting follow up question - do these people actually exist, and do they actually believe what they believe.

On page 12:


NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 27^th, 2011 at 7:55pm:

You're attempting the old linguistic sleight of hand... You're trying to establish that  “believing-in” is the same for atheists as for theists. Just a tactic always exploited by theists and their apologists. Said before here.... but saying it again... When the theist states “I believe god exists”, he necessarily must/will inevitably go on to define what the nature of that belief is. He must define the thing in which he believes – his theism. That is what the act of  “believing-in” requires of the believer. This is not true of the “atheist”. His response to the theist is “I don’t believe you”. He is not required to develop an ism – His statement does not require an “atheology”. His is not a “believing-in” the non-existence of god in the manner that the theist must necessarily believe-in the existence of god. So, the statement “atheists believe in the proposition that god does not exist” leads to a misapprehension in that it may allow one to think that it is consequentially the same as “theists believe in the proposition that god exists”. The statement “atheists disbelieve the proposition that god exists” dispels that linguistic illusion and marks “atheism” as attributively dissimilar to “theism”. It may be said that atheists are permanently in the state of absence-of-belief-in-god, so long as no one infers from that that they are actively “believing-in the non-existence of god”.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 27^th, 2011 at 7:55pm:

I don’t know... I’ve never met anyone who actually believes in the non-existence of god. (see above for “believing-in”).

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 27^th, 2011 at 7:55pm:

Because it’s not an honest question. It is a device intended to demonstrate that “atheism” is the act of “believing-in” in the same way that theism is an act of “believing-in”... That both acts are attributively the same. Are you prepared to accept that they are not?

page 21:


NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 9:52am:

freediver wrote on Apr 30th, 2011 at 9:42am: Pretty much. To be an atheist you have to reject all religion right? Does it make sense to call a Chritian an atheist in contemplating Hinduism? I'm not sure why this is a problem. What's your next step? Atheism is a religion?  ::)

Anyway, I thought now would be a good time to open up the same question to everyone. Is it just atheists who have trouble answering?

After much insisting that the question is simple, at the 18th page freediver’s concentration lapsed somewhat and admitted this (regarding definitions):


Quote:

[It] depends how you define Muslim. And gay of course.

Then a day later (still 18 pages in) this :


Quote:

The other problem with dictionary definitions is the ambiguity, which is an inevitable consequence of the brevity.

So much for simple questions!

So, if a person believes that God does not exist, are they an atheist?

I say :

It may be said they are atheists (being permanently in the state of absence-of-belief-in-god), so long as you do not infer from that statement, that they are actively “believing-in the non-existence of god”.

Helian, I am asking about your deifnition, not the dictionary. Remember, it was yours and Grey's attempt to define atheism out of existence that prompted the question. It gets difficult if you ask a dictionary because you can't ask for further clarification in the case of ambiguity. This is not true of people able to think for themselves.

If it were to be said, would you agree with it?

And what if they actively believed that God does not existence, as the question asks? Are they an atheist?

Would it make a difference to your answer if they believed it passively rather than actively?

Does it make any difference to your answer if I leave out all the dashes?

I'm quite happy being an atheist according to the dictionary definition of the word ;)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist


Quote:

a·the·ist    /ˈeɪθiɪst/ Show Spelled[ey-thee-ist] Show IPA –noun a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 2:59pm:

Helian, I am asking about your deifnition, not the dictionary. Remember, it was yours and Grey's attempt to define atheism out of existence that prompted the question.

Hardly out of existence (you're displaying more deceit there FD)... I have always said that an atheist disbelieves the proposition that god/s exist.


freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 2:59pm:

And what if they actively believed that God does not existence, as the question asks? Are they an atheist?

And who would 'they' be?


freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 2:59pm:

Does it make any difference to your answer if I leave out all the dashes?

The dashes indicate that I intend the statement to take on its own autonomy and while "state of absence-of-belief-in-god" could also roughly be rendered as "state of disbelief", but I wanted to highlight "absence" as being fundamental to the state.

And, no, I do not consider "absence" to be tangible.

Quote:

And who would 'they' be?

The people I am asking about. People who believe that God does not exist. Are they atheists?

Or, if it is easier for you to answer - do they even exist?

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 3:13pm:

Quote: And who would 'they' be? The people I am asking about. People who believe that God does not exist. Are they atheists? Or, if it is easier for you to answer - do they even exist?

You could say that there are sane people out there who, yesterday upon the stair, met a man who wasn't there...

but I haven't met any (neither people who weren't there nor any sane person who has met one).

If the moon was cheese would it taste like Camembert?

Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 3:05pm:

I'm quite happy being an atheist according to the dictionary definition of the word ;) http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist Quote: a·the·ist    /ˈeɪθiɪst/ Show Spelled[ey-thee-ist] Show IPA –noun a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Also - they don't believe in:
witches, goblins, leprechauns, elfs, father Xmas, the tooth fairy,
or the doctrine of the infallibility of the Pope, miracles, or Holy water,
virgin births, ressurection, parting of the seas, the devil, heaven or hell......

the list goes on.

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 3:13pm:

Quote: And who would 'they' be? The people I am asking about. People who believe that God does not exist. Are they atheists? Or, if it is easier for you to answer - do they even exist?

Yes I believe that God does not exist.

Next question ??

Bobby. wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 3:19pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 30th, 2011 at 3:05pm: I'm quite happy being an atheist according to the dictionary definition of the word ;) http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist Quote: a·the·ist    /ˈeɪθiɪst/ Show Spelled[ey-thee-ist] Show IPA –noun a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings. Also - they don't believe in: witches, goblins, leprechauns, elfs, father Xmas, the tooth fairy, or the doctrine of the infallibility of the Pope, miracles, or Holy water, virgin births, ressurection, parting of the seas, the devil, heaven or hell...... the list goes on.

Yes but what about the mystery of the Communion of the "Holy Transubstantiated Corporate Person".  Do you believe in that and that the character, substance and presence of a true person resides in the Corporate legal fiction? :o

Prevailing wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 3:40pm:

Bobby. wrote on Apr 30th, 2011 at 3:19pm: Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 30th, 2011 at 3:05pm: I'm quite happy being an atheist according to the dictionary definition of the word ;) http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist Quote: a·the·ist    /ˈeɪθiɪst/ Show Spelled[ey-thee-ist] Show IPA –noun a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings. Also - they don't believe in: witches, goblins, leprechauns, elfs, father Xmas, the tooth fairy, or the doctrine of the infallibility of the Pope, miracles, or Holy water, virgin births, ressurection, parting of the seas, the devil, heaven or hell...... the list goes on. Yes but what about the mystery of the Communion of the "Holy Transubstantiated Corporate Person".  Do you believe in that and that the character, substance and presence of a true person resides in the Corporate legal fiction? :o

Prevailing.
Are you on any medication?

This is as daft and insidious a scam as the religious economic communion scam and it is principled on the same alchemy and mysticism.  You need to be medicated if you believe that because you are swallowing all of the same things that you claim you reject such as religious sacraments and communion just dressed up in different garbs - do you think a business corporate entity is any different in essence to a religious corporate entity or perhaps thinking about it is above your IQ ticket. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I am a proud Athiest  :)
I do not believe in a god, medieval superstitions or the repressive nature of organised religion.

Quote:

do you think a business corporate entity is any different in essence to a religious corporate entity

No - they both are in business to make money.

Very slick Topic you got going here FreeDiver.

'Knock ...knock!!'
"Who's there?" I answer as I open my door.
"Its us from the Church of Latter Day Saints" They spoke in unison and they had two little children with them.
"Waddaya want?" I ask politely as someone who has lived in Mt Druitt and Min'o could do.
"We would like you to buy one of our Magazines which will help you towards understanding and believing in God." They smiled.
"How much?" I asked somewhat detached.
"Oh just $6." They grinned at the high possibility of a sale finally.
"Well, I'll buy your magazine if you buy my magazine, ok?" I ventured.
"Er ...your magazine?" they slowed in speech, somewhat confused as to what to say.
I lifted my Dive Pacific Magazine from off the table near the door and stuck it in their faces so they could see the wonderful photos of Wrecks and Blue Wrasses.
"Only $12 - kinda cheap for such quality print like this." I pushed the sale.
"Um, well, um ...We only read books pertaining to Jesus Christ and God and we would like you to feel the same..." They defended, politely of course, though the smiles had certainly dissapeared, as I cut them off.
"Well I guess we're both at a stalemate - I believe in Scuba Diving and all things Water-Life Aquatic ...and you guys don't." I responded with a huff of rejection.
"Well Water and Aquatic Life is one of Gods creations." They attacked with full justification and domination.
"Then I guess you guys will sign up for all the Dive Certs and come Scuba Diving via my Dive Shop and Club." I stared.
...silence.
A moment, then I  shut the door. Damn I thought, I could have made a $6 profit.

...am I an Atheist? No, I just believe in something else other than Religion. ;)

God does exist in the feeble minds of people like Longweekend.

I don't think he knows he exists himself.

adelcrow wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 4:51pm:

I am a proud Athiest  :) I do not believe in a god, medieval superstitions or the repressive nature of organised religion.

I am a proud me and I live in the realm of ideas and free thought not dogma or labels of any kind.  That includes the privilege of considering any ideas with an open mind to see if there is anything of merit or praise worthy that can add to my own comprehension of the world we live in.   You call me an atheist, an agnostic, a Christian or a Muslim you immediately put walls and barriers before me.8-)

I do however respect the rights of individuals to believe in whatever they like, as long as they dont shove it down my throat  :)

It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 5:10pm:

I don't think he knows he exists himself.

God or LW or both?

Quote:

I am a proud me and I live in the realm of ideas and free thought not dogma or labels of any kind.  That includes the privilege of considering any ideas with an open mind to see if there is anything of merit or praise worthy that can add to my own comprehension of the world we live in.   You call me an atheist, an agnostic, a Christian or a Muslim you immediately put walls and barriers before me.

Well said.


Quote:

Jasignature wrote on Today at 5:10pm: I don't think he knows he exists himself. God or LW or both?

Well said also.

Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 3:38pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 30th, 2011 at 3:13pm: Quote: And who would 'they' be? The people I am asking about. People who believe that God does not exist. Are they atheists? Or, if it is easier for you to answer - do they even exist? Yes I believe that God does not exist. Next question ??

There you go Helian. Can you answer the question now? Or does TNL not exist either?

Bobby. wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 5:01pm:

God does exist in the feeble minds of people like Longweekend.

Only selfish people like badweekend would think there is a god that just offers him miracles and nobody else including children dying of starvation for the want of a dollars worth of food :(

of course GOD / PRIME CREATOR exists

are you blind?

eyes yet do not see?

there is GOD all around you,

within you

you are a manifestation of GOD yes

in a linear time construct attached to the 3rd order of density..

beloved ones,

arise from your slumberances

namaste

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 8:24pm:

Can you answer the question now? Or does TNL not exist either?

None of you exist. You are all figments of my imagination.

Bobby. wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 4:53pm:

Quote: do you think a business corporate entity is any different in essence to a religious corporate entity No - they both are in business to make money.

A business usually has something useful to offer for the money you give it. On the other hand a religious entity just offers a fake gold pass to heaven with no money back guarantees :(

Way out of my depth, but why not.

The question seems simple, a technical paradox? But subjectively silly.

If a priest/strong believer is idle, having no belief in anything, maybe thinking about dinner, do we label his present self or do we have to ask.
What about when they are questioning their beliefs? Or they witness something horrific that leaves them in a prolonged state of real doubt?
My point is that its a personal label with a somewhat objective interpretation.
If i say i'm atheist you know what i mean, if i say i'm theist you know what i mean.

Does the question have a practical implication/motive? Or is it simply an exercise?

it_is_the_light wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 9:03pm:

of course GOD / PRIME CREATOR exists are you blind? eyes yet do not see? there is GOD all around you, within you you are a manifestation of GOD yes in a linear time construct attached to the 3rd order of density.. beloved ones, arise from your slumberances namaste

which God are you talking about ??

there are thousands of them.

look at all of the Gods created by man :) LOL

http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=285

I don't believe in god,

Does that mean I believe god doesn't exist?

I dunno. But I'll play.

I believe that god doesn't exist.

But what exactly is god?

When I was little my mum told me god was like this fatherly all powerful figure who watched over us.

Even at the age of 4 or 5 I was thinking "so it's like that three bears or seven dwarves bullshit?"

Prevailing wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 6:09pm:

adelcrow wrote on Apr 30th, 2011 at 4:51pm: I am a proud Athiest  :) I do not believe in a god, medieval superstitions or the repressive nature of organised religion. I am a proud me and I live in the realm of ideas and free thought not dogma or labels of any kind.  That includes the privilege of considering any ideas with an open mind to see if there is anything of merit or praise worthy that can add to my own comprehension of the world we live in.   You call me an atheist, an agnostic, a Christian or a Muslim you immediately put walls and barriers before me.8-)

You already know what we call you.

Life_goes_on wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 9:16pm:

I don't believe in god, Does that mean I believe god doesn't exist? I dunno. But I'll play. I believe that god doesn't exist. But what exactly is god? When I was little my mum told me god was like this fatherly all powerful figure who watched over us. Even at the age of 4 or 5 I was thinking "so it's like that three bears or seven dwarves bullshit?"

this is what god is supposed to look like :)

http://home.planet.nl/~gkorthof/images/GOD.jpg

Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 9:24pm:

this is what god is supposed to look like :)

I would say that Theists who believe that God looks like that, don't exist  :P  (except It_is_the_Light and possibly Foolosophy)

I believe that non-existence does not exist.  :D

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 8:24pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 30th, 2011 at 3:38pm: freediver wrote on Apr 30th, 2011 at 3:13pm: Quote: And who would 'they' be? The people I am asking about. People who believe that God does not exist. Are they atheists? Or, if it is easier for you to answer - do they even exist? Yes I believe that God does not exist. Next question ?? There you go Helian. Can you answer the question now? Or does TNL not exist either?

;D

“All those who believe in nothing, explain your reasoning”.
Tribute to Steven Wright.

hand it to you Sappho

Last Nail please- !! "I don't believe in god" - " I believe that god doesn't exist."
But what exactly is god?  Most likely like the 3 Bears I'd say.

Ok,
The Atheist Forum of Australia is looking in on this Thread.

...someone highlighted it to em. I blame Nellie.

Emma wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:13pm:

hand it to you Sappho Last Nail please- !! "I don't believe in god" - " I believe that god doesn't exist." But what exactly is god?  Most likely like the 3 Bears I'd say.

God is a mild-mannered man normally, but intolerant to ignorance and stupidity.

I don't believe that I exist.

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:29pm:

Ok, The Atheist Forum of Australia is looking in on this Thread. ...someone highlighted it to em. I blame Nellie.

Do we actually have any theists in this discussion?

muso wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:35pm:

It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Apr 30th, 2011 at 10:29pm: Ok, The Atheist Forum of Australia is looking in on this Thread. ...someone highlighted it to em. I blame Nellie. Do we actually have any theists in this discussion?

You're a (syncretic) theist (of sorts)... You'll do...

If I believe that theists do not exist am I an atheist?  ;)

Sappho wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:43pm:

If I believe that theists do not exist and I atheist?  ;)

And if I don't believe in definite articles, am I an a-the-ist?

God says he doesn't believe he exists - so God is an atheist.

Uh OH i'm getting worried - that almost makes sense. Godwins

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:40pm:

You're a (syncretic) theist (of sorts)... You'll do...

I don't know about syncretic. It depends how good the food is.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:53pm:

Sappho wrote on Apr 30th, 2011 at 10:43pm: If I believe that theists do not exist and I atheist?  ;) And if I don't believe in definite articles, am I an a-the-ist?

Yes, and if you're also French, you could be an Alean.

muso wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:59pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 30th, 2011 at 10:40pm: You're a (syncretic) theist (of sorts)... You'll do... I don't know about syncretic. It depends how good the food is.

Asian-African-Indian stew... Blended to offend everyone.

muso wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 11:00pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 30th, 2011 at 10:53pm: Sappho wrote on Apr 30th, 2011 at 10:43pm: If I believe that theists do not exist and I atheist?  ;) And if I don't believe in definite articles, am I an a-the-ist? Yes, and if you're also French, you could be an Alean.

Or maybe Chinese... Or Russian?

anyway, this is silly. If the Atheist Forum of Australia is looking in, the least we should do is find a Christian to participate. I mean noblesse oblige and all that.

muso wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 11:08pm:

anyway, this is silly. If the Atheist Forum of Australia is looking in, the least we should do is find a Christian to participate. I mean noblesse oblige and all that.

What evidence do we have that "they" are watching us?

Do "they" got theists?

Anyway oblige away, there Syncretos Theosian.

It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:29pm:

Ok, The Atheist Forum of Australia is looking in on this Thread. ...someone highlighted it to em. I blame Nellie.

This comment.


Quote:

Do "they" got theists?

Only Atheistic theists, like me I guess.

muso wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 11:10pm:

It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Apr 30th, 2011 at 10:29pm: Ok, The Atheist Forum of Australia is looking in on this Thread. ...someone highlighted it to em. I blame Nellie. This comment.

Oh... OK...

I'm on...  ahem...

Greetings disbelievers one and all, we come in peace...


Quote:

When the theist states “I believe god exists”, he necessarily must/will inevitably go on to define what the nature of that belief is. He must define the thing in which he believes – his theism. That is what the act of  “believing-in” requires of the believer. This is not true of the “atheist”. His response to the theist is “I don’t believe you”. He is not required to develop an ism – His statement does not require an “atheology”. His is not a “believing-in” the non-existence of god in the manner that the theist must necessarily believe-in the existence of god. So, the statement “atheists believe in the proposition that god does not exist” leads to a misapprehension in that it may allow one to think that it is consequentially the same as “theists believe in the proposition that god exists”. The statement “atheists disbelieve the proposition that god exists” dispels that linguistic illusion and marks “atheism” as attributively dissimilar to “theism”. It may be said that atheists are permanently in the state of absence-of-belief-in-god, so long as no one infers from that that they are actively “believing-in the non-existence of god”.

So it's a bit like if you drink tea, you really need to specify how many sugars you take, whether you take milk or lemon etc. (théology)

- Whereas a non tea drinker doesn't really need to develop an equivalent non-tea drinking théology.

muso wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 11:20pm:

So it's a bit like if you drink tea, you really need to specify how many sugars you take, whether you take milk or lemon etc. (théology) - Whereas a non tea drinker doesn't really need to develop an equivalent non-tea drinking théology.

Yairs...

Or when a consumer of strong curries in one's midst states “Fear not... My farts smell good”, he necessarily must/will inevitably go on to define (as the paint peels inexorably off the walls after he lets one rip) what the hell he is talking about.

This is not true of the smeller. His response to the farter (after his compulsion to vomit gradually subsides) is “I don’t believe you”.

isn't it the very valid observation?

'that for every action, there is an equal and opposite re-action'.? :)

Emma wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 11:54pm:

isn't it the very valid observation? 'that for every action, there is an equal and opposite re-action'.? :)

What! You don't mean that atheism is the antonym of theism do you?  :D

you know ?- you  are right on there - Sappho! :D

Emma wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 12:30am:

you know ?- you  are right on there - Sappho! :D

OMG it's getting freaky in here... so what you really mean is that if Theists believe, then Atheists don't believe and that a thread talking about Atheists believing is merely reflecting a syntax error resulting from a lack of understanding for antonyms?

Does Freediver believe that syntax errors don't exist?

Exactly--
Put it better than I.

Apropos Ozpo - "it's happening all over"!! :-X

Aggghhh I'd figured freediver was a bot, I hadn't considered that it might be a replicator, though if it has the 'religion' programme I might have expected it. ;D

Helian and Sappho, two members have now stated that they believe that God does not exist. Do these people exist, or are they merely syntactical errors? Are they atheists?

That atheist forum you guys mentioned, is that the one I got banned from? Be careful if you go there, they publish any personal info they can find on people with the wrong opinion.


Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 9:02pm:

Bobby. wrote on Apr 30th, 2011 at 5:01pm: God does exist in the feeble minds of people like Longweekend. Only selfish people like badweekend would think there is a god that just offers him miracles and nobody else including children dying of starvation for the want of a dollars worth of food :(

You don't think it is a miracle that someone would offer to feed a child on the other side of the world?

Jame-e:


Quote:

If i say i'm atheist you know what i mean, if i say i'm theist you know what i mean.

Apparently not.


Quote:

Does the question have a practical implication/motive? Or is it simply an exercise?

I should give you some more background. Last time we had this debate I pointed out that any belief regarding the existence of dieties will have no rational or scientific basis and can thus be considered a religion. This had such a strong impact on Helian and a few others that they tried to define atheists out of existence and make atheism either undefinable or equivalent to agnosticism. They then went on to alter the definition of agnosticism to something fairly meaningless, and also to invent a new word for atheism to fill the void, but did the same redefinition thing to that word. It didn't occur to me at the time to ask this simple question as I was trying to get my head around Helian's position, which generally involved inventing-states-of-mind-with-vague-descriptions-and-lots-of-dashes-to-hold-it-all-together.

Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 3:38pm:

Yes I believe that God does not exist. Next question ??

Tell me nail... what evidence do you have to prove your belief that god does not exist... or is it a matter of faith?

What is the nature of God and non existence to which you are applying your belief?

Life_goes_on wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 9:16pm:

But I'll play. I believe that god doesn't exist.

In order to believe that god is non existent, you must first believe in non-existence. What evidence do you have to prove non existence... or is that a matter of faith?

Quote:

That atheist forum you guys mentioned, is that the one I got banned from? Be careful if you go there, they publish any personal info they can find on people with the wrong opinion.

If it's any consolation Free, I was asked to leave ;D , I kept chiding them for being too rough on newbies with some faith. Frankly their belligerance amazed me. As a vintage member of the Guardian's forum, RDNET, and even the well over moderated ABC I'd never found my online persona to be received any differently to the way it is in real life. Which is to say opinionated by generally affable.

freediver wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 8:10am:

Helian and Sappho, two members have now stated that they believe that God does not exist. Do these people exist, or are they merely syntactical errors? Are they atheists?

What's this? Appealing to numbers? Drink more piss, a million drunks can't be wrong?

They are atheists (being permanently in the state of absence-of-belief-in-god), so long as you don't infer from that statement that they are actively “believing-in the non-existence of god”.

Quote:

Helian and Sappho, two members have now stated that they believe that God does not exist.

Good luck to them, are they also believers in the noncreamyness of the moon?

freediver wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 8:10am:

I should give you some more background. Last time we had this debate I pointed out that any belief regarding the existence of dieties will have no rational or scientific basis and can thus be considered a religion. This had such a strong impact on Helian and a few others that they tried to define atheists out of existence and make atheism either undefinable or equivalent to agnosticism. They then went on to alter the definition of agnosticism to something fairly meaningless, and also to invent a new word for atheism to fill the void, but did the same redefinition thing to that word. It didn't occur to me at the time to ask this simple question as I was trying to get my head around Helian's position, which generally involved inventing-states-of-mind-with-vague-descriptions-and-lots-of-dashes-to-hold-it-all-together.

Calm down FD, there's a good boy...

No one is or was trying to define atheism out of existence, fella, as you know.

An Atheist is he/she who disbelieves the proposition that god/s exist.

which God are you talking about ??

there are thousands of them.

look at all of the Gods created by man  LOL

______________

prime creator

the creator of all things primary

freewill believe as you do so choose,

beloved ones

the construct of things is in sacred geometrical order yes

the earth traverses the sun every 365 days 1 year..have you noticed?

and the sun traverses the central sun alcione every 26,000 years

at the end of pisces we see the age of aquarius..

and many still with yet do not see,

these are forgiven for their confusions and

for comforting predogmatic beleif systems

and repeat ad nauseum rubbish from the freemasonic fairygodmothers

however

i would suggest beloveds,

release that which no longer serves you now

take another look at your world,deep breath in,feel yourself

expand,

then exhale all negativity into mother earth..repeat 7 times

look within and summon LIGHT

it is there

with unconditional forgiveness

you are LOVED beyond measurement

and so it is

so be it

-:)

namaste

If you look at the various Atheist Forums ...and yes, I too have been banned ;D, you will find that the majority of 'characters' that run the show are from a Scientific or Musical background (and they all love to wear black skivvies).
So it makes me wonder if these people just can't call themselves Scientists and Musicians against Religion? What gives? :-?

I would also like to say that I think Scientology ...as silly as it can be, is a hybrid of both Science and Religion - kinda like M.A.S.H 4077 was a hybrid of Military and Medicine.

So is Scientology trying to bring together what Atheists try to tear apart?

_________________________________________________

I read somewhere (?) "I don't believe in God, but I believe in my fellow Men."

many would keep guessing,and claim to know it all



so be it

forgiven

namaste

-:)

It_is_the_Darkness wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 10:24am:

So is Scientology trying to bring together what Atheists try to tear apart?

Scientology is just another gang in the woo marketplace, out to control and fleece.

It_is_the_Darkness wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 10:24am:

If you look at the various Atheist Forums ...and yes, I too have been banned ;D, you will find that the majority of 'characters' that run the show are from a Scientific or Musical background (and they all love to wear black skivvies).

I'm musical. I'm atheist and black is the new black every fashion season... don't know what this forum is you speak of though... sounds fanatical.

Someone want to link it? I love getting banned from fanatical web sites.  8-)

AFA Forum - Atheist Forum of Australia.

If only Scientists and Muscians realised that 'Black' is the colour of Maths (Accountants and their black power suits).
Maybe one day they'll realise this and "Fade to Grey" somewhere between the Silverado of Central America (Carribean) and the Silver Fern of New Zealand.

Quote:

Freediver - Do you 'reject' the existence of people who believe that God does not exist?

Quote:

Grey - No. Not exactly, but it's a convoluted way of expressing agnosticism. Belief is inextricable from faith. Racism is a belief system. If you believe in god/gods you're not an atheist.

Quote:

Freediver - It has nothing to do with agnosticism.

Quote:

Freediver - Agnostics concede the possibility of God's existence. If you do not concede this possibility, there is not much wiggle room between your position and believing that God does not exist. I don't see how one or many Gods changes this logic. Thus the rpesence or absence of belief is the simplest way to distinguish the two positions.

And there we have it. freediver understands and agrees with the position of Helian, Sappho, myself, et al very well indeed.  

It_is_the_Darkness wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 10:31am:

AFA Forum - Atheist Forum of Australia.

You didn't mention that every post has to be cleared by a mod first. They may be Atheists... but they sure as hell don't support free speech.  :-X

Sappho wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 10:52am:

It_is_the_Darkness wrote on May 1st, 2011 at 10:31am: AFA Forum - Atheist Forum of Australia. You didn't mention that every post has to be cleared by a mod first. They may be Atheists... but they sure as hell don't support free speech.  :-X

It's probably just the first post sappho.

http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/forums/index.php

Grey


Quote:

If it's any consolation Free, I was asked to leave Grin , I kept chiding them for being too rough on newbies with some faith. Frankly their belligerance amazed me.

I think they may have been the original inspiration for my atheism is a religion argument. They were more dogmatic than any religious forum I have seen, even more so than the fishing forums. I have decided to dedicate my 'ten commandments of atheism' to their honour. I only have 3 so far, but I'm sure a few more will come up.

The 10 commandments of atheism:

1) Thou shalt stick to the message. Atheism is disbelief. This makes perfect sense and needs no clarification. Beware linguistic trickery and questions asked with forked tongue.

2) Thou shalt have no theology but atheology. Beware false prophets who proclaim that God does not exist, enemies who proclaim that God does exist, and agnostics who proclaim neither. Disproclaim them all!

3) Dismember them too, for they ask annoying questions. Post their personal information, but close your forum from public view, for they are all-seeing.

4) ?

Helian:


Quote:

What's this? Appealing to numbers? Drink more piss, a million drunks can't be wrong?

No, I am not appealing to numbers. Are you saying they are wrong about what they themselves believe? You are the one who tried to argue that such people can't possibly exist. It only takes one to disprove you. After all, it is a question, not a statement. If a person believes that God does not exist, are they an atheist?


Quote:

They are atheists (being permanently in the state of absence-of-belief-in-god), so long as you don't infer from that statement that they are actively “believing-in the non-existence of god”.

But I am inferring that Helian, if you take it to mean they believe that God does not exist. I'm always a bit suspicious of your meaning with all those dashes.


Quote:

No one is or was trying to define atheism out of existence, fella, as you know.

You have rendered yourself incapable of answering a simple question, unless you qualify the answer by saying it is not an answer to the question that was asked.

Grey:


Quote:

And there we have it. freediver understands and agrees with the position of Helian, Sappho, myself, et al very well indeed.

I do not agree that someone who believes that God does not exist is an agnostic.

muso wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 9:05pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 30th, 2011 at 8:24pm: Can you answer the question now? Or does TNL not exist either? None of you exist. You are all figments of my imagination.

LOL


Good post muso!          ;D



Yes.

Are our perceptions of reality, really a true reflection of, err    .......reality?

And how can we know!

Enough already!!
What a basically stupid question. :D

 Jeez u all got too much time to waste.! Oh and - did you see Compass tonight on ABC?

Fascinating look at the King James Bible, its antecedents, necessity and merit.

My suggestion?  - believe AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE!
Belief closes the mind.
Better to believe in nothing - at least, nothing intangible.!

Nothing wrong with a bit a fantasy, but this religious game is way OUT THERE.

I prefer to write my own Religion personally.
;)

Hey, FD, what's with the loaded title!?

The essense of the Bible if you have any ability to comprehend allegory is that reality and existence is God - the supreme being - whom ever you hold that to be is creating and recreating himself and ye are gods - children of the Most High.  Redemption is the story awakening of the Children of the Most High to their identity and their destiny.  This story of the Most High Gods Creation and recreation of himself is repeated and told through allegory throughout the Old and New Testament. 8-)

Prevailing wrote on May 2^nd, 2011 at 12:06pm:

The essense of the Bible if you have any ability to comprehend allegory is that reality and existence is God - the supreme being - whom ever you hold that to be is creating and recreating himself and ye are gods - children of the Most High.  Redemption is the story awakening of the Children of the Most High to their identity and their destiny.  This story of the Most High Gods Creation and recreation of himself is repeated and told through allegory throughout the Old and New Testament. 8-)

That sounds as though you believe that God and Universe are synonymous?

Grey wrote on May 2^nd, 2011 at 12:36pm:

Prevailing wrote on May 2nd, 2011 at 12:06pm: The essense of the Bible if you have any ability to comprehend allegory is that reality and existence is God - the supreme being - whom ever you hold that to be is creating and recreating himself and ye are gods - children of the Most High.  Redemption is the story awakening of the Children of the Most High to their identity and their destiny.  This story of the Most High Gods Creation and recreation of himself is repeated and told through allegory throughout the Old and New Testament. 8-) That sounds as though you believe that God and Universe are synonymous?

I dont know how if there is a Supreme being how everything could not emanate from His essence and Thought.  The idea of a separation between the creature and creator as fundamentalism teaches is illogical.  I have always liked the thinking of early Alexandrian "Christian" thinking on that and the concept of Apokastasis. 8-)

Quote:

Hey, FD, what's with the loaded title!?

How is it loaded? That's what the thread is about.

Prevailing wrote on May 2^nd, 2011 at 12:53pm:

Grey wrote on May 2nd, 2011 at 12:36pm: Prevailing wrote on May 2nd, 2011 at 12:06pm: The essense of the Bible if you have any ability to comprehend allegory is that reality and existence is God - the supreme being - whom ever you hold that to be is creating and recreating himself and ye are gods - children of the Most High.  Redemption is the story awakening of the Children of the Most High to their identity and their destiny.  This story of the Most High Gods Creation and recreation of himself is repeated and told through allegory throughout the Old and New Testament. 8-) That sounds as though you believe that God and Universe are synonymous? I dont know how if there is a Supreme being how everything could not emanate from His essence and Thought. The idea of a separation between the creature and creator as fundamentalism teaches is illogical.  I have always liked the thinking of early Alexandrian "Christian" thinking on that and the concept of Apokastasis. 8-)

Well yes but isn't it also illogical to address that supreme being as 'he'. Or in terms that are in anyway human. Wouldn't the relationship be more akin to that of one of your cells contemplating 'you', as opposed to thinking of 'you' as a big reproduction of 'cell'.

Quote:

freediver - I do not agree that someone who believes that God does not exist is an agnostic.

'believing' qualifies the statement, 'God does not exist', it introduces an element of uncertainty, therefore...

Bleegghh!

I distinctly heard that motorcycle screaming,
"there is NO god" as it wheezed past.

---

Oh dear lol :)

Yadda wrote on May 1^st, 2011 at 4:09pm:

muso wrote on Apr 30th, 2011 at 9:05pm: freediver wrote on Apr 30th, 2011 at 8:24pm: Can you answer the question now? Or does TNL not exist either? None of you exist. You are all figments of my imagination. LOL Good post muso!          ;D Yes. Are our perceptions of reality, really a true reflection of, err    .......reality? And how can we know!

I'm here to tell you, my perceptions are real!!!

perceptions_now wrote on May 2^nd, 2011 at 4:51pm:

Yadda wrote on May 1st, 2011 at 4:09pm: muso wrote on Apr 30th, 2011 at 9:05pm: freediver wrote on Apr 30th, 2011 at 8:24pm: Can you answer the question now? Or does TNL not exist either? None of you exist. You are all figments of my imagination. LOL Good post muso!          ;D Yes. Are our perceptions of reality, really a true reflection of, err    .......reality? And how can we know! I'm here to tell you, my perceptions are real!!!

But, I'm still Agnostic!

perceptions_now wrote on May 2^nd, 2011 at 4:53pm:

perceptions_now wrote on May 2nd, 2011 at 4:51pm: Yadda wrote on May 1st, 2011 at 4:09pm: muso wrote on Apr 30th, 2011 at 9:05pm: freediver wrote on Apr 30th, 2011 at 8:24pm: Can you answer the question now? Or does TNL not exist either? None of you exist. You are all figments of my imagination. LOL Good post muso!          ;D Yes. Are our perceptions of reality, really a true reflection of, err    .......reality? And how can we know! I'm here to tell you, my perceptions are real!!! But, I'm still Agnostic!

However, whilst I am of the opinion that the existence of a God or Gods, is unknown &/or unknowable, I do have a dilemma.

Can it be that everything that has ever and will ever happen, is pre-determined, is part of God's great plan and therefore choice and freedom of thought, are just an illusion.

Or, is there no god, chaos is the only universal rule and that our choices will determine the future of humanity.

Which is more difficult to believe?
Which is more unpalatable?

I'll have to consult my tea leaves to answer that question (théology)

Oh Oh  
Free Will and Destiny  - two opposites, ...just like the previous thing about existence or not of a diety(s).  ( in summary)

Ah the subtle power of the idea of God's Will, God the all-knowing - infinite creator , and apparently sustainer, of the Universe.
( or, reality as we know it - if you religious prefer.) "cos what a comfort that must be -  to know that whatever you do, God willed it, its all part of the plan, and you will be forgiven your sins".
I wonder what smart creep thought up that one ? An apostle or a Saint? a Pope or a simple Priest- no doubt someone on this thread will know, Or perhaps I should say, have a view.?!?    But obviously the originator was a MAN.   Not a human - a Man.  Enough sickening evidence has come to light, all over the theologistic, religious , in fact  all over the WORLD  ----- to show it wasn't 'GOD'.

So  I vote for free will. :)

You don't like the whole forgiveness thing? I always thought it was one of Jesus's best ideas.


Grey wrote on May 2^nd, 2011 at 2:50pm:

Quote: freediver - I do not agree that someone who believes that God does not exist is an agnostic. 'believing' qualifies the statement, 'God does not exist', it introduces an element of uncertainty, therefore...

That makes even less sense Grey.

Emma wrote on May 2^nd, 2011 at 7:54pm:

So  I vote for free will. :)

I'm all for freeing Will too.

I don't believe in Gods anymore than I believe in:

witches, goblins, leprechauns, elfs, father Xmas, the tooth fairy,
or the doctrine of the infallibility of the Pope, miracles, or Holy water,
virgin births, ressurection, parting of the seas, the devil, heaven or hell.

It's all nonsense.

Quote:

If a person believes that God does not exist, are they an atheist?

Quote:

a·the·ist    [ey-thee-ist] Show IPA –noun a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist

Yes according to the dictionary
To simple??


Quote:

—Synonyms Atheist, agnostic, infidel, skeptic  refer to persons not inclined toward religious belief or a particular form of religious belief. An atheist  is one who denies the existence of a deity or of divine beings. An agnostic  is one who believes it impossible to know anything about God or about the creation of the universe and refrains from commitment to any religious doctrine. Infidel  means an unbeliever, especially a nonbeliever in Islam or Christianity. A skeptic  doubts and is critical of all accepted doctrines and creeds.

muso wrote on May 2^nd, 2011 at 9:24pm:

Emma wrote on May 2nd, 2011 at 7:54pm: So  I vote for free will. :) I'm all for freeing Will too.

Why? Will only just got married, of his own "free will".

Quote:

To simple??

You would hope so.

'its all nonsense'.

I find most impressive the ability to convince believers of trans-substantiation- don't know is that the Eucharist ? - I'm a pagan. I smile, grin and even yip and howl sometimes, at the Full Moon!!! :D

perhaps FD  -  you need to feel worthy of forgiveness? :-?

perhaps FD - you NEED forgiveness.  But hey yeah -  I'm for forgiveness, most of the time.
:-X

I think the doctrine of forgiveness is one of the most powerful forces for good in the world.

I don't think of the act of forgiveness as a 'doctrine!!.
You mean  what ? - you do it even if you don't really want to, because Jesus tell's you to?
:(

perceptions now
.
Quote:

However, whilst I am of the opinion that the existence of a God or Gods, is unknown &/or unknowable, I do have a dilemma. Can it be that everything that has ever and will ever happen, is pre-determined, is part of God's great plan and therefore choice and freedom of thought, are just an illusion. Or, is there no god, chaos is the only universal rule and that our choices will determine the future of humanity. Which is more difficult to believe? Which is more unpalatable?

that's a good question.
Good to see someone thinking. Keep it up

Whether you believe all paths are predetermined by god or not is moot. All paths are predetermined by the law. Except that when the paths hit the walls of chaos they lose all direction. Who can predict the eventual postion of a molecule of water while the toilet is flushing? Free will is created by chaos.  :P

Quote:

I don't think of the act of forgiveness as a 'doctrine!!. You mean  what ? - you do it even if you don't really want to, because Jesus tell's you to?

Call it what you want. I was not referring to the act of forgiveness by itself, but to the Christian doctrine that incorporates it. That and 'turning the other cheek' are pretty powerful messages - a bit like Ghandi's work.

Grey wrote on May 3^rd, 2011 at 7:48am:

Whether you believe all paths are predetermined by god or not is moot. All paths are predetermined by the law. Except that when the paths hit the walls of chaos they lose all direction. Who can predict the eventual postion of a molecule of water while the toilet is flushing? Free will is created by chaos.  :P

This is social determinism. But who, we should ask, creates the laws? It is true the vast majority don't have free will, being shaped by the laws and morals around them, but who creates the laws and morals that shapes the herd? There's a smidgeon of free will in there somewhere amongst these statecraft-artists.

""....the vast majority do not have free will..etc...""

Grey?  "... all paths are predetermined by the law...etc.."

Both of you speak in absolutes -  and I don't believe either of you.

..free will isn't absolute, obviously,  and most assuredly operates outside the 'walls of Law'.

Of course - that depends on what 'Laws' you are both referring to. Are they the same?
Doesn't sound like it to me, and yet you are both resolute.!

So I assume you both favour God's Will over Free Will.

Is that a logical assumption? :)

Perhaps he was referring to physical laws, and consciousness as an emergent property of them and thus ultimately bound by them.

Emma wrote on May 3^rd, 2011 at 6:53pm:

""....the vast majority do not have free will..etc..."" Grey?  "... all paths are predetermined by the law...etc.." Both of you speak in absolutes -  and I don't believe either of you. ..free will isn't absolute, obviously,  and most assuredly operates outside the 'walls of Law'. Of course - that depends on what 'Laws' you are both referring to. Are they the same? Doesn't sound like it to me, and yet you are both resolute.! So I assume you both favour God's Will over Free Will. Is that a logical assumption? :)

I was a bit vague. I mean free will in regards to creative endeavours, rather than an unfree will which blindly follows regulations.

freediver wrote on May 3^rd, 2011 at 6:57pm:

Perhaps he was referring to physical laws, and consciousness as an emergent property of them and thus ultimately bound by them.

Absolutely right freediver, except that I don't accept that free will is bound by them. Of course our will is bound by physical law, but I do believe that we make choices that are not predetermined. I'm not abdicating responsibility for my actions to either god/s or physics.

Throughout the main body of his original 1927 paper, written in German, Heisenberg used the word "Unbestimmtheit" ("indeterminacy") to describe the basic theoretical principle. Only in the endnote did he switch to the word "Unsicherheit" ("uncertainty"). However, when the English-language version of Heisenberg's textbook, The Physical Principles of the Quantum Theory, was published in 1930, the translation "uncertainty" was used, and it became the more commonly used term in the English language thereafter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle

freediver wrote on May 3^rd, 2011 at 5:00pm:

Quote: I don't think of the act of forgiveness as a 'doctrine!!. You mean  what ? - you do it even if you don't really want to, because Jesus tell's you to? Call it what you want. I was not referring to the act of forgiveness by itself, but to the Christian doctrine that incorporates it. That and 'turning the other cheek' are pretty powerful messages - a bit like Ghandi's work.

jalane - yes, I forgive others when I don't want to.
That's when it is needed. Needed for myself.

It works.  Try it.

it may sound corny to say "I forgive you" to someone who has slighted you.
But it works

Sprintcyclist wrote on May 4^th, 2011 at 10:26am:

freediver wrote on May 3rd, 2011 at 5:00pm: Quote: I don't think of the act of forgiveness as a 'doctrine!!. You mean  what ? - you do it even if you don't really want to, because Jesus tell's you to? Call it what you want. I was not referring to the act of forgiveness by itself, but to the Christian doctrine that incorporates it. That and 'turning the other cheek' are pretty powerful messages - a bit like Ghandi's work. jalane - yes, I forgive others when I don't want to. That's when it is needed. Needed for myself. It works.  Try it. it may sound corny to say "I forgive you" to someone who has slighted you. But it works

To say, 'I forgive you' without meaning/feeling it sounds like hypocrisy and passive aggression, to me sprint. I think maybe forgiveness is only useful when it's asked for or at least desired.

You do not need to do it for someone else's benefit. It is useful to yourself to give up the bitterness that comes with holding a grudge, even if the person never even finds out.

And sometimes, forgive yourself.

We all err

Aye we can only hope those muslims see the eroor of their ways and giveback all the Christian oil they're hiding under their sand dunes before the Christians run out of cheeks.  ;)