http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/business-chief-slams-nbn-rollout/story-e6frg6n6-1226040640114

THE first rollout of the National Broadband Network in Tasmania is a squandered opportunity and one of the worst examples of pork-barrelling, says the state's senior business leader.

Tasmanian Chamber of Commerce and Industry chairman Troy Harper told The Australian that although the NBN was a great concept, the network's rollout in Tasmania was "a disgrace" and "madness".

Mr Harper said the initial rollout should have focused on the cities, where the take-up rate by businesses and homes would have been greatest, instead of on three small towns, including two in rural areas.

The criticism brought a swift rebuke from Communications Minister Stephen Conroy, who said people were entitled to affordable high-speed broadband services no matter where they chose to live or work.

"The NBN will deliver this, and the government is getting on with rolling it out," a spokeswoman for Senator Conroy said.

Mr Harper blamed former Tasmanian premier David Bartlett for what he saw as the failings of the initial NBN rollout.

"We've had some bad examples of pork-barrelling, but these (the rollout in the towns of Smithton, Scottsdale and Midway Point) would be some of the worst," he said.

"For a premier who was supposedly IT-savvy, it is possibly the worst betrayal a state has seen in terms of a performance from a political leader."

Mr Bartlett, who resigned as premier in late January, declined to comment, but a government spokesman distanced the state from the decision to begin with the three small towns.

"It was the NBN Co, not the Tasmanian government, that chose the three initial rollout towns, and they had control of the rollout, not the Tasmanian government," the spokesman said. "The rationale was that the initial rollout had a trial component and it was designed to identify and fix problems. It was far easier to do that in three small towns than in a rollout to the major metropolitan centres."

NBN Co defended the choice of the three towns, saying the pilot program aimed to test construction techniques and working with retail services.

"Those were pilot sites and they are a starting point," a company spokeswoman said.

She pointed out that the take-up rate for the network in Tasmania was approaching 15 per cent.

"It's not an end point," she said. "There are seven more sites that have been named for the next phase, and we hope to be making announcements soon on the start of construction on those."

Mr Harper said the NBN could have been a "really important part of Tasmania's future" and was a great opportunity for Tasmania to get connections with the mainland.

"That has been categorically squandered," he said. "It's a disgrace the way that wonderful strategy has been an absolute implementation disaster."

He said rolling the network out first to cities would have been a boon for Tasmania's key growth service-based industries and proved what benefits the networks could bring nationally.

"And everyone who took it up would be a marketing opportunity to say 'Hasn't this changed our business, what a wonderful job it's done -- we're doing business in ways we never imagined'," Mr Harper said.

For the network's initial rollout, the federal and state governments chose three towns: Smithton, a quiet rural timber area in Tasmania's northwest, Scottsdale, a timber town in the rural northeast, and Midway Point, on Hobart's eastern outskirts.

Scottsdale, population 950, and Smithton, population 1609, are in the seats of Bass and Braddon, which until last year's federal election were marginal, and support for the NBN was seen as a factor in swings to Labor. Midway Point is in less marginal Lyons, which was further shored up by Labor at last year's poll.

While politically popular in these towns, take-up rates for the high-speed internet have been low, at about 11 per cent, according to figures released by the federal government last year.

Mr Harper said targeting the stage one rollout on three small towns in key seats showed it was a "political solution".

The rollout of fibre-optic cable was proceeding incredibly slowly, the chamber chief said. "At the rate we're going . . . it would take 50 years to complete the rollout in Tasmania, and 2000 years to have the rest of the country wired."

The rollout of fibre-optic cable was proceeding incredibly slowly, the chamber chief said. "At the rate we're going . . . it would take 50 years to complete the rollout in Tasmania, and 2000 years to have the rest of the country wired."  



lol I see where Malc was complaining about the lack of" speed" regarding the NBN.. funny isnt it??..do you think they have actually run out of money??..I mean we seem to be cutting back on just about everything but the NBN..

Nice.

Now read the actual argument, not just things you can highlight, and work out what the business leaders in Tasmania think about the NBN, and how it will relate to Tasmania's economy.

yet another display of the alps corruption, waste and ineptness

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 9:20am:

Nice. Now read the actual argument, not just things you can highlight, and work out what the business leaders in Tasmania think about the NBN, and how it will relate to Tasmania's economy.

ok what part did you have in mind?

I dont understand how the NBN will relate to the economy.. perhaps you can fill me in on that.

this morning they have revisited mobil phones and cancer...and the answer coming back is YES... more and more evidence is coming in...this of course if for heavy users...however can we look forward to medical problems with computers in the future.. maybe hunchbacks..I presume the faster this gets the more time we will spend on it... and the more time they will want us to spend on it..isnt that the purpose of it?

cods wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 9:32am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:20am: Nice. Now read the actual argument, not just things you can highlight, and work out what the business leaders in Tasmania think about the NBN, and how it will relate to Tasmania's economy. ok what part did you have in mind? I dont understand how the NBN will relate to the economy.. perhaps you can fill me in on that.

Unfortunately it would be impossible to explain basic principles of the Australian economy to you - it requires you to have some level of comprehension that is above a 3rd grade level :(  

Especially considering you haven't even read the article and go straight into your usual misconceived load of jibberish.

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 9:20am:

Nice. Now read the actual argument, not just things you can highlight, and work out what the business leaders in Tasmania think about the NBN, and how it will relate to Tasmania's economy.

did you read the bit about the takeup rate approaching 15%???

what does that say to you about how popular the NBN is and how rural areas are embracing the concept?

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 9:47am:

cods wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:32am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:20am: Nice. Now read the actual argument, not just things you can highlight, and work out what the business leaders in Tasmania think about the NBN, and how it will relate to Tasmania's economy. ok what part did you have in mind? I dont understand how the NBN will relate to the economy.. perhaps you can fill me in on that. Unfortunately it would be impossible to explain basic principles of the Australian economy to you - it requires you to have some level of comprehension that is above a 3rd grade level :(   Especially considering you haven't even read the article and go straight into your usual misconceived load of jibberish.

which means you cant explain the economic benefits of the NBN either. beyond constructon and the employment for it there is no siginificant economic benefit from the NBN itself.

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 9:47am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:20am: Nice. Now read the actual argument, not just things you can highlight, and work out what the business leaders in Tasmania think about the NBN, and how it will relate to Tasmania's economy. did you read the bit about the takeup rate approaching 15%??? what does that say to you about how popular the NBN is and how rural areas are embracing the concept?

As a matter of interest, what were the stats on the internet take up rate of by Tasmanian households relative to other Australian households (especially regional ones) prior to the NBN rollout down there!?

Is it not the case, that Tasmanians are generally techno-phobic relative to the rest of the Australian population!?

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 9:50am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:47am: cods wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:32am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:20am: Nice. Now read the actual argument, not just things you can highlight, and work out what the business leaders in Tasmania think about the NBN, and how it will relate to Tasmania's economy. ok what part did you have in mind? I dont understand how the NBN will relate to the economy.. perhaps you can fill me in on that. Unfortunately it would be impossible to explain basic principles of the Australian economy to you - it requires you to have some level of comprehension that is above a 3rd grade level :(   Especially considering you haven't even read the article and go straight into your usual misconceived load of jibberish. which means you cant explain the economic benefits of the NBN either. beyond constructon and the employment for it there is no siginificant economic benefit from the NBN itself.

I've explained and given you countless examples in previous discussions.  Going over it again and again won't change anything and becomes rather useless. Go through previous threads and get the examples and try to comprehend.  Too bad you're a bit of a nuff when it comes to anything that isn't written by albrechsten and the like.


Quote:

Mr Harper said the NBN could have been a "really important part of Tasmania's future" and was a great opportunity for Tasmania to get connections with the mainland.

Quote:

He said rolling the network out first to cities would have been a boon for Tasmania's key growth service-based industries and proved what benefits the networks could bring nationally.

Key business leader understands the NBN's potential.   Longie thinks it's a waste.  Hmmm...who to believe and listen to... key business leader...or .... longie... hmm... tough one. ;D ;D

Equitist wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 9:52am:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:47am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:20am: Nice. Now read the actual argument, not just things you can highlight, and work out what the business leaders in Tasmania think about the NBN, and how it will relate to Tasmania's economy. did you read the bit about the takeup rate approaching 15%??? what does that say to you about how popular the NBN is and how rural areas are embracing the concept? As a matter of interest, what were the stats on the internet take up rate of by Tasmanian households relative to other Australian households (especially regional ones) prior to the NBN rollout down there!? Is it not the case, that Tasmanians are generally techno-phobic relative to the rest of the Australian population!?

go away with your ridiculous grasping arguments!

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 9:56am:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:50am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:47am: cods wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:32am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:20am: Nice. Now read the actual argument, not just things you can highlight, and work out what the business leaders in Tasmania think about the NBN, and how it will relate to Tasmania's economy. ok what part did you have in mind? I dont understand how the NBN will relate to the economy.. perhaps you can fill me in on that. Unfortunately it would be impossible to explain basic principles of the Australian economy to you - it requires you to have some level of comprehension that is above a 3rd grade level :(   Especially considering you haven't even read the article and go straight into your usual misconceived load of jibberish. which means you cant explain the economic benefits of the NBN either. beyond constructon and the employment for it there is no siginificant economic benefit from the NBN itself. I've explained and given you countless examples in previous discussions.  Going over it again and again won't change anything and becomes rather useless. Go through previous threads and get the examples and try to comprehend.  Too bad you're a bit of a nuff when it comes to anything that isn't written by albrechsten and the like. Quote: Mr Harper said the NBN could have been a "really important part of Tasmania's future" and was a great opportunity for Tasmania to get connections with the mainland. [quote]He said rolling the network out first to cities would have been a boon for Tasmania's key growth service-based industries and proved what benefits the networks could bring nationally.

Key business leader understands the NBN's potential.   Longie thinks it's a waste.  Hmmm...who to believe and listen to... key business leader...or .... longie... hmm... tough one. ;D ;D[/quote]

so you CANT give an argument for the economic benefits. I thought so. Whenever I ask people what we wil use the NBN for that we cant currently I get one of two answers:
1) nothing
2) ludicrous things like home meidcal appointments.

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 9:47am:

cods wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:32am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:20am: Nice. Now read the actual argument, not just things you can highlight, and work out what the business leaders in Tasmania think about the NBN, and how it will relate to Tasmania's economy. ok what part did you have in mind? I dont understand how the NBN will relate to the economy.. perhaps you can fill me in on that. Unfortunately it would be impossible to explain basic principles of the Australian economy to you - it requires you to have some level of comprehension that is above a 3rd grade level :(   Especially considering you haven't even read the article and go straight into your usual misconceived load of jibberish.

ahhh as first thought you cant explain can you??????????

yes I go back a bit with schooling and they didnt teach economics in my day... how ever no need for you to be so rude did they teach you that in 3rd grade?..


they just for once answering a question you are getting like woody.... he only abuses when he is backed in the corner...


so business men think the NBN would have had more use if it was in the cities... well thats pretty brilliant I must say...but where does it say that the economy will GROOOOOOOOOOOOW like a weed because of it?????


I have read the article...but still would like your imput... try to do it without the rudeness if thats at all possible.

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 10:03am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:56am: longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:50am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:47am: cods wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:32am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:20am: Nice. Now read the actual argument, not just things you can highlight, and work out what the business leaders in Tasmania think about the NBN, and how it will relate to Tasmania's economy. ok what part did you have in mind? I dont understand how the NBN will relate to the economy.. perhaps you can fill me in on that. Unfortunately it would be impossible to explain basic principles of the Australian economy to you - it requires you to have some level of comprehension that is above a 3rd grade level :(   Especially considering you haven't even read the article and go straight into your usual misconceived load of jibberish. which means you cant explain the economic benefits of the NBN either. beyond constructon and the employment for it there is no siginificant economic benefit from the NBN itself. I've explained and given you countless examples in previous discussions.  Going over it again and again won't change anything and becomes rather useless. Go through previous threads and get the examples and try to comprehend.  Too bad you're a bit of a nuff when it comes to anything that isn't written by albrechsten and the like. Quote: Mr Harper said the NBN could have been a "really important part of Tasmania's future" and was a great opportunity for Tasmania to get connections with the mainland. [quote]He said rolling the network out first to cities would have been a boon for Tasmania's key growth service-based industries and proved what benefits the networks could bring nationally. Key business leader understands the NBN's potential.   Longie thinks it's a waste.  Hmmm...who to believe and listen to... key business leader...or .... longie... hmm... tough one. ;D ;D

so you CANT give an argument for the economic benefits. I thought so. Whenever I ask people what we wil use the NBN for that we cant currently I get one of two answers:
1) nothing
2) ludicrous things like home meidcal appointments.[/quote]

Already told you - check the hundred other threads on the issue where u ask the same thing and I give you my thoughts on benefits and u blatantly ignore completely.

It's not that I can't, it's the fact that I consistently do, and you end up running off and hiding, only to ask again the next thread. I'm over it with you - either understand how to have a proper discussion or continue to troll - but understand that the latter will see you fast become redundant.

cods wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 10:09am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:47am: cods wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:32am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:20am: Nice. Now read the actual argument, not just things you can highlight, and work out what the business leaders in Tasmania think about the NBN, and how it will relate to Tasmania's economy. ok what part did you have in mind? I dont understand how the NBN will relate to the economy.. perhaps you can fill me in on that. Unfortunately it would be impossible to explain basic principles of the Australian economy to you - it requires you to have some level of comprehension that is above a 3rd grade level :(   Especially considering you haven't even read the article and go straight into your usual misconceived load of jibberish. ahhh as first thought you cant explain can you?????????? yes I go back a bit with schooling and they didnt teach economics in my day... how ever no need for you to be so rude did they teach you that in 3rd grade?.. they just for once answering a question you are getting like woody.... he only abuses when he is backed in the corner... so business men think the NBN would have had more use if it was in the cities... well thats pretty brilliant I must say...but where does it say that the economy will GROOOOOOOOOOOOW like a weed because of it????? I have read the article...but still would like your imput... try to do it without the rudeness if thats at all possible.

I'm not backed into a corner, but if you haven't read an article and then try to argue something it actually explains, or likewise read it and simply can't understand, then it's not up to me to explain it to you (that won't help you either); it's up to you to go and get some lessons and develop your comprehension.

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 10:13am:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:03am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:56am: longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:50am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:47am: cods wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:32am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:20am: Nice. Now read the actual argument, not just things you can highlight, and work out what the business leaders in Tasmania think about the NBN, and how it will relate to Tasmania's economy. ok what part did you have in mind? I dont understand how the NBN will relate to the economy.. perhaps you can fill me in on that. Unfortunately it would be impossible to explain basic principles of the Australian economy to you - it requires you to have some level of comprehension that is above a 3rd grade level :(   Especially considering you haven't even read the article and go straight into your usual misconceived load of jibberish. which means you cant explain the economic benefits of the NBN either. beyond constructon and the employment for it there is no siginificant economic benefit from the NBN itself. I've explained and given you countless examples in previous discussions.  Going over it again and again won't change anything and becomes rather useless. Go through previous threads and get the examples and try to comprehend.  Too bad you're a bit of a nuff when it comes to anything that isn't written by albrechsten and the like. Quote: Mr Harper said the NBN could have been a "really important part of Tasmania's future" and was a great opportunity for Tasmania to get connections with the mainland. [quote]He said rolling the network out first to cities would have been a boon for Tasmania's key growth service-based industries and proved what benefits the networks could bring nationally. Key business leader understands the NBN's potential.   Longie thinks it's a waste.  Hmmm...who to believe and listen to... key business leader...or .... longie... hmm... tough one. ;D ;D so you CANT give an argument for the economic benefits. I thought so. Whenever I ask people what we wil use the NBN for that we cant currently I get one of two answers: 1) nothing 2) ludicrous things like home meidcal appointments.

Already told you - check the hundred other threads on the issue where u ask the same thing and I give you my thoughts on benefits and u blatantly ignore completely.

It's not that I can't, it's the fact that I consistently do, and you end up running off and hiding, only to ask again the next thread. I'm over it with you - either understand how to have a proper discussion or continue to troll - but understand that the latter will see you fast become redundant.[/quote]

the reason I aks again is because i have no recollection of a legitimate significant economic benefit being highlighted by you o anyone else. maybe you THOUGHT you had listed some but when my 'drivel and fanciful imagination' filter is on I may have missed it.

I will turn it off for now and await you listing of the significant economic advantages of the NBN.

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 10:14am:

cods wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:09am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:47am: cods wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:32am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:20am: Nice. Now read the actual argument, not just things you can highlight, and work out what the business leaders in Tasmania think about the NBN, and how it will relate to Tasmania's economy. ok what part did you have in mind? I dont understand how the NBN will relate to the economy.. perhaps you can fill me in on that. Unfortunately it would be impossible to explain basic principles of the Australian economy to you - it requires you to have some level of comprehension that is above a 3rd grade level :(   Especially considering you haven't even read the article and go straight into your usual misconceived load of jibberish. ahhh as first thought you cant explain can you?????????? yes I go back a bit with schooling and they didnt teach economics in my day... how ever no need for you to be so rude did they teach you that in 3rd grade?.. they just for once answering a question you are getting like woody.... he only abuses when he is backed in the corner... so business men think the NBN would have had more use if it was in the cities... well thats pretty brilliant I must say...but where does it say that the economy will GROOOOOOOOOOOOW like a weed because of it????? I have read the article...but still would like your imput... try to do it without the rudeness if thats at all possible. I'm not backed into a corner, but if you haven't read an article and then try to argue something it actually explains, or likewise read it and simply can't understand, then it's not up to me to explain it to you (that won't help you either); it's up to you to go and get some lessons and develop your comprehension.

you sound like you are about to do a Greens-lose and change the topic or deflect or a dozen other techniques to avoid answering.

no one has EVER been able to identify things the NBN can do that current broadband cant. beyond reaching the areas that dont already have broadband (which would have been fixed 2 years ago if not for Rudd and Conroy) what exactly does the NBN do for you?

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 10:16am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:13am: longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:03am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:56am: longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:50am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:47am: cods wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:32am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:20am: Nice. Now read the actual argument, not just things you can highlight, and work out what the business leaders in Tasmania think about the NBN, and how it will relate to Tasmania's economy. ok what part did you have in mind? I dont understand how the NBN will relate to the economy.. perhaps you can fill me in on that. Unfortunately it would be impossible to explain basic principles of the Australian economy to you - it requires you to have some level of comprehension that is above a 3rd grade level :(   Especially considering you haven't even read the article and go straight into your usual misconceived load of jibberish. which means you cant explain the economic benefits of the NBN either. beyond constructon and the employment for it there is no siginificant economic benefit from the NBN itself. I've explained and given you countless examples in previous discussions.  Going over it again and again won't change anything and becomes rather useless. Go through previous threads and get the examples and try to comprehend.  Too bad you're a bit of a nuff when it comes to anything that isn't written by albrechsten and the like. Quote: Mr Harper said the NBN could have been a "really important part of Tasmania's future" and was a great opportunity for Tasmania to get connections with the mainland. [quote]He said rolling the network out first to cities would have been a boon for Tasmania's key growth service-based industries and proved what benefits the networks could bring nationally. Key business leader understands the NBN's potential.   Longie thinks it's a waste.  Hmmm...who to believe and listen to... key business leader...or .... longie... hmm... tough one. ;D ;D so you CANT give an argument for the economic benefits. I thought so. Whenever I ask people what we wil use the NBN for that we cant currently I get one of two answers: 1) nothing 2) ludicrous things like home meidcal appointments. Already told you - check the hundred other threads on the issue where u ask the same thing and I give you my thoughts on benefits and u blatantly ignore completely. It's not that I can't, it's the fact that I consistently do, and you end up running off and hiding, only to ask again the next thread. I'm over it with you - either understand how to have a proper discussion or continue to troll - but understand that the latter will see you fast become redundant.

the reason I aks again is because i have no recollection of a legitimate significant economic benefit being highlighted by you o anyone else. maybe you THOUGHT you had listed some but when my 'drivel and fanciful imagination' filter is on I may have missed it.

I will turn it off for now and await you listing of the significant economic advantages of the NBN.[/quote]

The good thing with forums is that you don't need to rely on your recollection - because you can always still find it.

Go over the other threads - it's all there for you. But Like I said, it isn't my problem that you can't understand or choose not to understand (probably the former), I've gone over this with you on numerous occasions. I won't be going over this with you again because it's a pointless circular debate that leads nowhere because you don't have any wish to expand your basic knowledge or understanding, and choose to continue to blab on about things that have been disproved OVER AND OVER again.

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 10:19am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:14am: cods wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:09am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:47am: cods wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:32am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:20am: Nice. Now read the actual argument, not just things you can highlight, and work out what the business leaders in Tasmania think about the NBN, and how it will relate to Tasmania's economy. ok what part did you have in mind? I dont understand how the NBN will relate to the economy.. perhaps you can fill me in on that. Unfortunately it would be impossible to explain basic principles of the Australian economy to you - it requires you to have some level of comprehension that is above a 3rd grade level :(   Especially considering you haven't even read the article and go straight into your usual misconceived load of jibberish. ahhh as first thought you cant explain can you?????????? yes I go back a bit with schooling and they didnt teach economics in my day... how ever no need for you to be so rude did they teach you that in 3rd grade?.. they just for once answering a question you are getting like woody.... he only abuses when he is backed in the corner... so business men think the NBN would have had more use if it was in the cities... well thats pretty brilliant I must say...but where does it say that the economy will GROOOOOOOOOOOOW like a weed because of it????? I have read the article...but still would like your imput... try to do it without the rudeness if thats at all possible. I'm not backed into a corner, but if you haven't read an article and then try to argue something it actually explains, or likewise read it and simply can't understand, then it's not up to me to explain it to you (that won't help you either); it's up to you to go and get some lessons and develop your comprehension. you sound like you are about to do a Greens-lose and change the topic or deflect or a dozen other techniques to avoid answering. no one has EVER been able to identify things the NBN can do that current broadband cant. beyond reaching the areas that dont already have broadband (which would have been fixed 2 years ago if not for Rudd and Conroy) what exactly does the NBN do for you?

Once again I ask - if Howard's policy was so great, why have the Coalition even backed away from it?  Why won't they support it?

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 10:23am:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:19am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:14am: cods wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:09am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:47am: cods wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:32am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:20am: Nice. Now read the actual argument, not just things you can highlight, and work out what the business leaders in Tasmania think about the NBN, and how it will relate to Tasmania's economy. ok what part did you have in mind? I dont understand how the NBN will relate to the economy.. perhaps you can fill me in on that. Unfortunately it would be impossible to explain basic principles of the Australian economy to you - it requires you to have some level of comprehension that is above a 3rd grade level :(   Especially considering you haven't even read the article and go straight into your usual misconceived load of jibberish. ahhh as first thought you cant explain can you?????????? yes I go back a bit with schooling and they didnt teach economics in my day... how ever no need for you to be so rude did they teach you that in 3rd grade?.. they just for once answering a question you are getting like woody.... he only abuses when he is backed in the corner... so business men think the NBN would have had more use if it was in the cities... well thats pretty brilliant I must say...but where does it say that the economy will GROOOOOOOOOOOOW like a weed because of it????? I have read the article...but still would like your imput... try to do it without the rudeness if thats at all possible. I'm not backed into a corner, but if you haven't read an article and then try to argue something it actually explains, or likewise read it and simply can't understand, then it's not up to me to explain it to you (that won't help you either); it's up to you to go and get some lessons and develop your comprehension. you sound like you are about to do a Greens-lose and change the topic or deflect or a dozen other techniques to avoid answering. no one has EVER been able to identify things the NBN can do that current broadband cant. beyond reaching the areas that dont already have broadband (which would have been fixed 2 years ago if not for Rudd and Conroy) what exactly does the NBN do for you? Once again I ask - if Howard's policy was so great, why have the Coalition even backed away from it?  Why won't they support it?

basic politics. when you lose an election you ALWAYS modify your policies somewhat. I thought you understood that or maybe you shoudl revisit some wonderful labor policies like NO GST, Medicare Gold and a variety of other failures.

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 10:22am:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:16am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:13am: longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:03am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:56am: longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:50am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:47am: cods wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:32am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:20am: Nice. Now read the actual argument, not just things you can highlight, and work out what the business leaders in Tasmania think about the NBN, and how it will relate to Tasmania's economy. ok what part did you have in mind? I dont understand how the NBN will relate to the economy.. perhaps you can fill me in on that. Unfortunately it would be impossible to explain basic principles of the Australian economy to you - it requires you to have some level of comprehension that is above a 3rd grade level :(   Especially considering you haven't even read the article and go straight into your usual misconceived load of jibberish. which means you cant explain the economic benefits of the NBN either. beyond constructon and the employment for it there is no siginificant economic benefit from the NBN itself. I've explained and given you countless examples in previous discussions.  Going over it again and again won't change anything and becomes rather useless. Go through previous threads and get the examples and try to comprehend.  Too bad you're a bit of a nuff when it comes to anything that isn't written by albrechsten and the like. Quote: Mr Harper said the NBN could have been a "really important part of Tasmania's future" and was a great opportunity for Tasmania to get connections with the mainland. [quote]He said rolling the network out first to cities would have been a boon for Tasmania's key growth service-based industries and proved what benefits the networks could bring nationally. Key business leader understands the NBN's potential.   Longie thinks it's a waste.  Hmmm...who to believe and listen to... key business leader...or .... longie... hmm... tough one. ;D ;D so you CANT give an argument for the economic benefits. I thought so. Whenever I ask people what we wil use the NBN for that we cant currently I get one of two answers: 1) nothing 2) ludicrous things like home meidcal appointments. Already told you - check the hundred other threads on the issue where u ask the same thing and I give you my thoughts on benefits and u blatantly ignore completely. It's not that I can't, it's the fact that I consistently do, and you end up running off and hiding, only to ask again the next thread. I'm over it with you - either understand how to have a proper discussion or continue to troll - but understand that the latter will see you fast become redundant. the reason I aks again is because i have no recollection of a legitimate significant economic benefit being highlighted by you o anyone else. maybe you THOUGHT you had listed some but when my 'drivel and fanciful imagination' filter is on I may have missed it. I will turn it off for now and await you listing of the significant economic advantages of the NBN.

The good thing with forums is that you don't need to rely on your recollection - because you can always still find it.

Go over the other threads - it's all there for you. But Like I said, it isn't my problem that you can't understand or choose not to understand (probably the former), I've gone over this with you on numerous occasions. I won't be going over this with you again because it's a pointless circular debate that leads nowhere because you don't have any wish to expand your basic knowledge or understanding, and choose to continue to blab on about things that have been disproved OVER AND OVER again.
[/quote]

you dont want to revisit 'home doctor appointments' do you? is that the best you can find?

business already has broadband and many are already on fibre.

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 10:36am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:23am: longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:19am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:14am: cods wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:09am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:47am: cods wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:32am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:20am: Nice. Now read the actual argument, not just things you can highlight, and work out what the business leaders in Tasmania think about the NBN, and how it will relate to Tasmania's economy. ok what part did you have in mind? I dont understand how the NBN will relate to the economy.. perhaps you can fill me in on that. Unfortunately it would be impossible to explain basic principles of the Australian economy to you - it requires you to have some level of comprehension that is above a 3rd grade level :(   Especially considering you haven't even read the article and go straight into your usual misconceived load of jibberish. ahhh as first thought you cant explain can you?????????? yes I go back a bit with schooling and they didnt teach economics in my day... how ever no need for you to be so rude did they teach you that in 3rd grade?.. they just for once answering a question you are getting like woody.... he only abuses when he is backed in the corner... so business men think the NBN would have had more use if it was in the cities... well thats pretty brilliant I must say...but where does it say that the economy will GROOOOOOOOOOOOW like a weed because of it????? I have read the article...but still would like your imput... try to do it without the rudeness if thats at all possible. I'm not backed into a corner, but if you haven't read an article and then try to argue something it actually explains, or likewise read it and simply can't understand, then it's not up to me to explain it to you (that won't help you either); it's up to you to go and get some lessons and develop your comprehension. you sound like you are about to do a Greens-lose and change the topic or deflect or a dozen other techniques to avoid answering. no one has EVER been able to identify things the NBN can do that current broadband cant. beyond reaching the areas that dont already have broadband (which would have been fixed 2 years ago if not for Rudd and Conroy) what exactly does the NBN do for you? Once again I ask - if Howard's policy was so great, why have the Coalition even backed away from it?  Why won't they support it? basic politics. when you lose an election you ALWAYS modify your policies somewhat. I thought you understood that or maybe you shoudl revisit some wonderful labor policies like NO GST, Medicare Gold and a variety of other failures.

Only difference of course is that politicians then form different views to meet their new policy ideas.

Not to mention that parties sideline policies because they are proven to be complete crap. So, if the Howard policy was complete crap, why are you still arking on about it?  Who from Labor is arking on about Medicare Gold?

I will also mention however that Coalition still believe our current infrastructure is fine and just needs a few pins and needs added to it; which was effectively Howard's policy.  So again, I don't quite understand why if it was such a great policy that we had to have, as you consistently mention, why did the Coalition sideline it and come up with some other complete jibberish?

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 10:39am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:22am: longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:16am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:13am: longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:03am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:56am: longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:50am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:47am: cods wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:32am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:20am: Nice. Now read the actual argument, not just things you can highlight, and work out what the business leaders in Tasmania think about the NBN, and how it will relate to Tasmania's economy. ok what part did you have in mind? I dont understand how the NBN will relate to the economy.. perhaps you can fill me in on that. Unfortunately it would be impossible to explain basic principles of the Australian economy to you - it requires you to have some level of comprehension that is above a 3rd grade level :(   Especially considering you haven't even read the article and go straight into your usual misconceived load of jibberish. which means you cant explain the economic benefits of the NBN either. beyond constructon and the employment for it there is no siginificant economic benefit from the NBN itself. I've explained and given you countless examples in previous discussions.  Going over it again and again won't change anything and becomes rather useless. Go through previous threads and get the examples and try to comprehend.  Too bad you're a bit of a nuff when it comes to anything that isn't written by albrechsten and the like. Quote: Mr Harper said the NBN could have been a "really important part of Tasmania's future" and was a great opportunity for Tasmania to get connections with the mainland. [quote]He said rolling the network out first to cities would have been a boon for Tasmania's key growth service-based industries and proved what benefits the networks could bring nationally. Key business leader understands the NBN's potential.   Longie thinks it's a waste.  Hmmm...who to believe and listen to... key business leader...or .... longie... hmm... tough one. ;D ;D so you CANT give an argument for the economic benefits. I thought so. Whenever I ask people what we wil use the NBN for that we cant currently I get one of two answers: 1) nothing 2) ludicrous things like home meidcal appointments. Already told you - check the hundred other threads on the issue where u ask the same thing and I give you my thoughts on benefits and u blatantly ignore completely. It's not that I can't, it's the fact that I consistently do, and you end up running off and hiding, only to ask again the next thread. I'm over it with you - either understand how to have a proper discussion or continue to troll - but understand that the latter will see you fast become redundant. the reason I aks again is because i have no recollection of a legitimate significant economic benefit being highlighted by you o anyone else. maybe you THOUGHT you had listed some but when my 'drivel and fanciful imagination' filter is on I may have missed it. I will turn it off for now and await you listing of the significant economic advantages of the NBN. The good thing with forums is that you don't need to rely on your recollection - because you can always still find it. Go over the other threads - it's all there for you. But Like I said, it isn't my problem that you can't understand or choose not to understand (probably the former), I've gone over this with you on numerous occasions. I won't be going over this with you again because it's a pointless circular debate that leads nowhere because you don't have any wish to expand your basic knowledge or understanding, and choose to continue to blab on about things that have been disproved OVER AND OVER again.

you dont want to revisit 'home doctor appointments' do you? is that the best you can find?

business already has broadband and many are already on fibre. [/quote]

already asked before and answered.  Feel free to check the past thread on the NBN - you'll find the answer to that there.  

look alevine, if you arent willing to at least dot-point these mythical advantages then consider your opinion pretty much worthless.

i do not intend to trawl thru countless other threads to find what wil probably be nothing more than drivel. just dot point the advantages you see  - especially for residential users who make up the vast majority of the expense.

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 10:40am:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:36am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:23am: longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:19am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:14am: cods wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:09am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:47am: cods wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:32am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:20am: Nice. Now read the actual argument, not just things you can highlight, and work out what the business leaders in Tasmania think about the NBN, and how it will relate to Tasmania's economy. ok what part did you have in mind? I dont understand how the NBN will relate to the economy.. perhaps you can fill me in on that. Unfortunately it would be impossible to explain basic principles of the Australian economy to you - it requires you to have some level of comprehension that is above a 3rd grade level :(   Especially considering you haven't even read the article and go straight into your usual misconceived load of jibberish. ahhh as first thought you cant explain can you?????????? yes I go back a bit with schooling and they didnt teach economics in my day... how ever no need for you to be so rude did they teach you that in 3rd grade?.. they just for once answering a question you are getting like woody.... he only abuses when he is backed in the corner... so business men think the NBN would have had more use if it was in the cities... well thats pretty brilliant I must say...but where does it say that the economy will GROOOOOOOOOOOOW like a weed because of it????? I have read the article...but still would like your imput... try to do it without the rudeness if thats at all possible. I'm not backed into a corner, but if you haven't read an article and then try to argue something it actually explains, or likewise read it and simply can't understand, then it's not up to me to explain it to you (that won't help you either); it's up to you to go and get some lessons and develop your comprehension. you sound like you are about to do a Greens-lose and change the topic or deflect or a dozen other techniques to avoid answering. no one has EVER been able to identify things the NBN can do that current broadband cant. beyond reaching the areas that dont already have broadband (which would have been fixed 2 years ago if not for Rudd and Conroy) what exactly does the NBN do for you? Once again I ask - if Howard's policy was so great, why have the Coalition even backed away from it?  Why won't they support it? basic politics. when you lose an election you ALWAYS modify your policies somewhat. I thought you understood that or maybe you shoudl revisit some wonderful labor policies like NO GST, Medicare Gold and a variety of other failures. Only difference of course is that politicians then form different views to meet their new policy ideas. Not to mention that parties sideline policies because they are proven to be complete crap. So, if the Howard policy was complete crap, why are you still arking on about it?  Who from Labor is arking on about Medicare Gold? I will also mention however that Coalition still believe our current infrastructure is fine and just needs a few pins and needs added to it; which was effectively Howard's policy.  So again, I don't quite understand why if it was such a great policy that we had to have, as you consistently mention, why did the Coalition sideline it and come up with some other complete jibberish?

criticising coalition policy is not answering the question of what good does the NBN serve.

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 10:45am:

look alevine, if you arent willing to at least dot-point these mythical advantages then consider your opinion pretty much worthless. i do not intend to trawl thru countless other threads to find what wil probably be nothing more than drivel. just dot point the advantages you see  - especially for residential users who make up the vast majority of the expense.

Hey, you're the one continuing on here - I'm happy and content because I've already told you I'm over debating this with you when you don't bother to read and then come back with the exact same nutter bullcrap the very next time.  

If you want to continue, first go over the past threads and actually read what people say. You'll find all the answers to your redundant and 5th grade standard questions in them; and that's a promise.

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 10:47am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:40am: longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:36am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:23am: longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:19am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:14am: cods wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:09am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:47am: cods wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:32am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:20am: Nice. Now read the actual argument, not just things you can highlight, and work out what the business leaders in Tasmania think about the NBN, and how it will relate to Tasmania's economy. ok what part did you have in mind? I dont understand how the NBN will relate to the economy.. perhaps you can fill me in on that. Unfortunately it would be impossible to explain basic principles of the Australian economy to you - it requires you to have some level of comprehension that is above a 3rd grade level :(   Especially considering you haven't even read the article and go straight into your usual misconceived load of jibberish. ahhh as first thought you cant explain can you?????????? yes I go back a bit with schooling and they didnt teach economics in my day... how ever no need for you to be so rude did they teach you that in 3rd grade?.. they just for once answering a question you are getting like woody.... he only abuses when he is backed in the corner... so business men think the NBN would have had more use if it was in the cities... well thats pretty brilliant I must say...but where does it say that the economy will GROOOOOOOOOOOOW like a weed because of it????? I have read the article...but still would like your imput... try to do it without the rudeness if thats at all possible. I'm not backed into a corner, but if you haven't read an article and then try to argue something it actually explains, or likewise read it and simply can't understand, then it's not up to me to explain it to you (that won't help you either); it's up to you to go and get some lessons and develop your comprehension. you sound like you are about to do a Greens-lose and change the topic or deflect or a dozen other techniques to avoid answering. no one has EVER been able to identify things the NBN can do that current broadband cant. beyond reaching the areas that dont already have broadband (which would have been fixed 2 years ago if not for Rudd and Conroy) what exactly does the NBN do for you? Once again I ask - if Howard's policy was so great, why have the Coalition even backed away from it?  Why won't they support it? basic politics. when you lose an election you ALWAYS modify your policies somewhat. I thought you understood that or maybe you shoudl revisit some wonderful labor policies like NO GST, Medicare Gold and a variety of other failures. Only difference of course is that politicians then form different views to meet their new policy ideas. Not to mention that parties sideline policies because they are proven to be complete crap. So, if the Howard policy was complete crap, why are you still arking on about it?  Who from Labor is arking on about Medicare Gold? I will also mention however that Coalition still believe our current infrastructure is fine and just needs a few pins and needs added to it; which was effectively Howard's policy.  So again, I don't quite understand why if it was such a great policy that we had to have, as you consistently mention, why did the Coalition sideline it and come up with some other complete jibberish? criticising coalition policy is not answering the question of what good does the NBN serve.

That wasn't the intent, but surprise surprise you once again misunderstood. What's new, right?

All I'm saying is your argument about Howard's policy is pointless because not even the Coalition support it; I doubt they ever did in the first place.  And because they've sidelined it and won't speak of it, clearly it was a crap policy that both parties are thankful to see go.

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 10:47am:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:45am: look alevine, if you arent willing to at least dot-point these mythical advantages then consider your opinion pretty much worthless. i do not intend to trawl thru countless other threads to find what wil probably be nothing more than drivel. just dot point the advantages you see  - especially for residential users who make up the vast majority of the expense. Hey, you're the one continuing on here - I'm happy and content because I've already told you I'm over debating this with you when you don't bother to read and then come back with the exact same nutter bullcrap the very next time.   If you want to continue, first go over the past threads and actually read what people say. You'll find all the answers to your redundant and 5th grade standard questions in them; and that's a promise.

it would take you 3 mins to dotpoint these advantages. you are obviously not very confident about them

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 10:58am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:47am: longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:45am: look alevine, if you arent willing to at least dot-point these mythical advantages then consider your opinion pretty much worthless. i do not intend to trawl thru countless other threads to find what wil probably be nothing more than drivel. just dot point the advantages you see  - especially for residential users who make up the vast majority of the expense. Hey, you're the one continuing on here - I'm happy and content because I've already told you I'm over debating this with you when you don't bother to read and then come back with the exact same nutter bullcrap the very next time.   If you want to continue, first go over the past threads and actually read what people say. You'll find all the answers to your redundant and 5th grade standard questions in them; and that's a promise. it would take you 3 mins to dotpoint these advantages. you are obviously not very confident about them

True, but I have my principles, and my principles are that when we actually debate, we read things and base our responses on that.   In the past you have simply asked the question, it's been responded to and you hid, until the very next day when you asked once again the very same question.  So I told you, I am over repeating - you can now troll through all of the threads on the NBN and find what you need.

Typical of Business leaders to say give it all to me or it is a waste.

Typical of major projects to do pilot testing on a smaller scale.

Major cities already have pretty fast internet services available and the benefits of making them first in the queue is debatable.

I'd write this one off as utter rubbish just an interest group pushing their own barrow.

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 10:48am:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:47am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:40am: longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:36am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:23am: longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:19am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:14am: cods wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:09am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:47am: cods wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:32am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:20am: Nice. Now read the actual argument, not just things you can highlight, and work out what the business leaders in Tasmania think about the NBN, and how it will relate to Tasmania's economy. ok what part did you have in mind? I dont understand how the NBN will relate to the economy.. perhaps you can fill me in on that. Unfortunately it would be impossible to explain basic principles of the Australian economy to you - it requires you to have some level of comprehension that is above a 3rd grade level :(   Especially considering you haven't even read the article and go straight into your usual misconceived load of jibberish. ahhh as first thought you cant explain can you?????????? yes I go back a bit with schooling and they didnt teach economics in my day... how ever no need for you to be so rude did they teach you that in 3rd grade?.. they just for once answering a question you are getting like woody.... he only abuses when he is backed in the corner... so business men think the NBN would have had more use if it was in the cities... well thats pretty brilliant I must say...but where does it say that the economy will GROOOOOOOOOOOOW like a weed because of it????? I have read the article...but still would like your imput... try to do it without the rudeness if thats at all possible. I'm not backed into a corner, but if you haven't read an article and then try to argue something it actually explains, or likewise read it and simply can't understand, then it's not up to me to explain it to you (that won't help you either); it's up to you to go and get some lessons and develop your comprehension. you sound like you are about to do a Greens-lose and change the topic or deflect or a dozen other techniques to avoid answering. no one has EVER been able to identify things the NBN can do that current broadband cant. beyond reaching the areas that dont already have broadband (which would have been fixed 2 years ago if not for Rudd and Conroy) what exactly does the NBN do for you? Once again I ask - if Howard's policy was so great, why have the Coalition even backed away from it?  Why won't they support it? basic politics. when you lose an election you ALWAYS modify your policies somewhat. I thought you understood that or maybe you shoudl revisit some wonderful labor policies like NO GST, Medicare Gold and a variety of other failures. Only difference of course is that politicians then form different views to meet their new policy ideas. Not to mention that parties sideline policies because they are proven to be complete crap. So, if the Howard policy was complete crap, why are you still arking on about it?  Who from Labor is arking on about Medicare Gold? I will also mention however that Coalition still believe our current infrastructure is fine and just needs a few pins and needs added to it; which was effectively Howard's policy.  So again, I don't quite understand why if it was such a great policy that we had to have, as you consistently mention, why did the Coalition sideline it and come up with some other complete jibberish? criticising coalition policy is not answering the question of what good does the NBN serve. That wasn't the intent, but surprise surprise you once again misunderstood. What's new, right? All I'm saying is your argument about Howard's policy is pointless because not even the Coalition support it; I doubt they ever did in the first place.  And because they've sidelined it and won't speak of it, clearly it was a crap policy that both parties are thankful to see go.

I thought this badly needed to be one post longer and appear one more time.

Dnarever wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 11:58am:

Typical of Business leaders to say give it all to me or it is a waste. Typical of major projects to do pilot testing on a smaller scale. Major cities already have pretty fast internet services available and the benefits of making them first in the queue is debatable. I'd write this one off as utter rubbish just an interest group pushing their own barrow.

a normal commercial operation would receive an 11% acceptance of its product during its 'pilot' testing and determine that the market didnt actually want it. And given that it is free, what does that say to the interest factor in their product?

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 10:58am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:47am: longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 10:45am: look alevine, if you arent willing to at least dot-point these mythical advantages then consider your opinion pretty much worthless. i do not intend to trawl thru countless other threads to find what wil probably be nothing more than drivel. just dot point the advantages you see  - especially for residential users who make up the vast majority of the expense. Hey, you're the one continuing on here - I'm happy and content because I've already told you I'm over debating this with you when you don't bother to read and then come back with the exact same nutter bullcrap the very next time.   If you want to continue, first go over the past threads and actually read what people say. You'll find all the answers to your redundant and 5th grade standard questions in them; and that's a promise. it would take you 3 mins to dotpoint these advantages. you are obviously not very confident about them

longy he cant simple as that if he could he would..he is the expert on economics remember but he doesnt want to share...and he doesnt want us to know about it..its a shame really because if we really understood all this we may be more libel to agree with the goose.

at least he doesnt class you as 3rd grade...like me...lol..

thought this badly needed to be one post longer and appear one more

time.


I have wondered does anyone troll all the way through those when someone lines them all up like that...lol..and when its time after time after time after time......yaaaaawnn

I understand Alevine, I know we have covered this ground before, but a Longy says, it is no biggie to reiterate for those who seem to forget what was previously discussed.

Reasons I think the NBN is a positive step forward for Australia are;

It is Necessary---this one can be argued against quite successfully, by saying what we have now is fine, and while that is true for many, it is also not true for many also, and it also fails to make any consideration for future need. What is also rarely acknowledged is the fact that so much of the copper network is heavily degraded, and needing, or close to needing being replaced anyway, to not go with a unified plan for the whole network would be a wasted opportunity.
It is like replacing an old bomb car, with another old bomb, which will be breaking down, and out for repairs regularly, instead of investing in a new, and reliable car.
That is often a more economical solution in the long term, which some cannot make because they do not have the capital for the investment, which is why we needed the government to take the lead on this issue.
The private companies would have coughed up for a new car, but it would have been a four door sedan, and we are getting a seven seater so that a lot more people get to enjoy the ride.
Fair----this is the BIG one, and the main point of departure for opponents of the NBN, who believe that people outside of the overpopulated capital cities do not deserve to have access to similar services for similar prices, which is what the NBN will deliver for the first time ever, in telecommunications. The educational, business, medical, social, and entertainment positives for these communities is a great step forward for rural Australia, and one that Private Enterprise alone, would never deliver.
The opponents object to us subsidising the Network to make it available to these people, but that is a selfish, and short sighted mindset, which would only put further pressure onto already stretched infrastructure in the big cities, so they should look on it as a small decentralisation subsidy.
Opportunity----simple, but so very important, and I will elaborate why.
The world is changing, in the past it was railways, and highways that opened up countries, and ports, which opened up the world, and now our access to the world is also delivered via the Internet.
Their are three main ingredients you need for a good internet service, Bandwidth, Bandwidth, Bandwidth!!
That is it, and that is what a Fibre network delivers.
So as an enabling technology, it is such that some of it's most important benefits may be totally unknown to us now, and whether they turn out to be as mundane as facebook, or something far grander, is up to us, but we will have the chance to make it as grand as we can imagine it.

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 12:06pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 11:58am: Typical of Business leaders to say give it all to me or it is a waste. Typical of major projects to do pilot testing on a smaller scale. Major cities already have pretty fast internet services available and the benefits of making them first in the queue is debatable. I'd write this one off as utter rubbish just an interest group pushing their own barrow. a normal commercial operation would receive an 11% acceptance of its product during its 'pilot' testing and determine that the market didnt actually want it. And given that it is free, what does that say to the interest factor in their product?

Think they are saying 15% but still some truth in what you say but not so sure it is valid for this type of improvment. The Business group do not seem to agree with this point - they say it is a good thing and they wanted it first.

I wonder how many internet providers in these areas gave their customers good deals and locked them into long term contracts when the NBN roll out became obvious.

mozzaok wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 12:13pm:

I understand Alevine, I know we have covered this ground before, but a Longy says, it is no biggie to reiterate for those who seem to forget what was previously discussed. Reasons I think the NBN is a positive step forward for Australia are; It is Necessary---this one can be argued against quite successfully, by saying what we have now is fine, and while that is true for many, it is also not true for many also, and it also fails to make any consideration for future need. What is also rarely acknowledged is the fact that so much of the copper network is heavily degraded, and needing, or close to needing being replaced anyway, to not go with a unified plan for the whole network would be a wasted opportunity. It is like replacing an old bomb car, with another old bomb, which will be breaking down, and out for repairs regularly, instead of investing in a new, and reliable car. That is often a more economical solution in the long term, which some cannot make because they do not have the capital for the investment, which is why we needed the government to take the lead on this issue. Fair----this is the BIG one, and the main point of departure for opponents of the NBN, who believe that people outside of the overpopulated capital cities do not deserve to have access to similar services for similar prices, which is what the NBN will deliver for the first time ever, in telecommunications. The educational, business, medical, social, and entertainment positives for these communities is a great step forward for rural Australia, and one that Private Enterprise alone, would never deliver. The opponents object to us subsidising the Network to make it available to these people, but that is a selfish, and short sighted mindset, which would only put further pressure onto already stretched infrastructure in the big cities, so they should look on it as a small decentralisation subsidy. Opportunity----simple, but so very important, and I will elaborate why. The world is changing, in the past it was railways, and highways that opened up countries, and ports, which opened up the world, and now our access to the world is also delivered via the Internet. Their are three main ingredients you need for a good internet service, Bandwidth, Bandwidth, Bandwidth!! That is it, and that is what a Fibre network delivers. So as an enabling technology, it is such that some of it's most important benefits may be totally unknown to us now, and whether they turn out to be as mundane as facebook, or something far grander, is up to us, but we will have the chance to make it as grand as we can imagine it.

That was a good response, mozza and thanks for taking tthe time to articulate your position clearly unlike so many other hysterical respondents. Let me take to the time to address a few things however.

You are choosing to clump opponents to the NBN all into one corner which is both unfair and wildly inaccurate. People oppose the NBN for varied reasons. Mine is simply one of cost. the likelihood that this beast will cost north of $60B is high and simple history would confirm that. That is a lot of money by anyones estimation and it is incumbent on the govt to show a significant advantage over alternatives which are 1/10th the cost yet have most of the advantages.

There is no doubt that the NBN is technically superior and would give a better internet experience for some. But that is not a killer reason - not at the enormous cost.

Most people in cities - 85% of the population - already have access to 12Mps ADSL 2+. the NBN offers them nothing at all. presumably there wil be 100Mbps capacity which IS a new thing however, commuity reaction to that has been massively underwhelming. and to be honest, the need for it on a residential basis is pretty much limited to pirates and porn connoiseurs.

The only possible genuine use for it is internet TV and I object most strenuously for australias most expensive infrastructure project been undertaken to provide a niche entertainment capacity.

This 'copper degradation' issue seems to be a pretty much manufactured one.  what do other countries do? thats right! they repair them and upgrade them - just like they do for other technologies.

My major objection is one of COST/BENEFIT. Im not opposed to bigger and better internet. Id probably get 100Mbps myself as I am a tecno-freak. But at the same time Im a business owner and cost/benefit analysis is second-nature and when spending such a truly enormous sum of money, a CBA is mandatory.

Ive asked multiple times for the applications of the NBN that cant be done on the existing network (assuming all the dead spots and rural problems are fixed). No one has come up with anything. to me, that is a clue.

But the final arbiter is the australian people. Tasmania had an 11% acceptance rate. and this is for something that is FREE!!!! That clearly and unequivocably indicates that while IT staff and some politicians think it is a great thing, the electorate as a whole has a huge yawn factor. and it has happened overseas. Singapore had such a low acceptance rate of its similar network that they had to legislate to FORCE people to take it in its typical totalitarian style!

Improvements in infrastructure need to be justified and they need to be affordable. the NBN is neither.

You are choosing to clump opponents to the NBN all into one corner which is both unfair and wildly inaccurate. People oppose the NBN for varied reasons. Mine is simply one of cost. the likelihood that this beast will cost north of $60B is high and simple history would confirm that. That is a lot of money by anyones estimation and it is incumbent on the govt to show a significant advantage over alternatives which are 1/10th the cost yet have most of the advantages.

The figures you quote are guesses, and we are still on track for the 36 billion figure, and if that goes up, it is unlikely to be more than the original 43, and it will be paid back, it is not a straight out spend, it is an INVESTMENT.

This 'copper degradation' issue seems to be a pretty much manufactured one.  what do other countries do? thats right! they repair them and upgrade them - just like they do for other technologies.


Sorry, but that just is not true, the degradation of the copper network is a known factor, and the lower replacement cost for fibre, and the lower maintenance schedule necessary for fibre are also known, which are both reasons why a fibre network is the way to go.

As far as Cost Benefit goes, I completely understand your point, and I wish we could do it cheaper, and I wish that John Howard had done it ten years ago, he probably could have built it for what he gave to millionaires for their superannuation accounts, but that never happened, and it is never going to become cheaper, and it will need to be done sooner or later, or else we will keep dropping down the ladder of telecommunications ability, and put our businesses at a comparative disadvantage because of that.

Quote:

The figures you quote are guesses, and we are still on track for the 36 billion figure, and if that goes up, it is unlikely to be more than the original 43, and it will be paid back, it is not a straight out spend, it is an INVESTMENT.

the NBN just tendered for construction and every tenderer big 10%+ more than the NBN expected. there is a clue there that you should be concerned with. If they cant get the price correct AT THE START, why should we expect it to be right during the process. EVERY large construction project has cost over-runs and the bigger it is, the bigger the overrun. you may argue that my figure is a guess but I would counter that the NBN Corps figure is the same - a guess. and it is a guess that is already proven to be wrong.

and yet for $5B 93% of people could have ADSL2+ NOW. it was the sensible choice then and remains so. Being involved in IT projects for 30 years I have seen a few things. One is that it is possible to take on a project that is TOO BIG. it becomes so big that it is impossible to finish. NAB spent $500 20 years ago on an integrated banking system before giving up on it.  the larger the project, the larger the risk of total failure. the bigger the project the higher the risk of huge cost overruns. with a project of this size it is NOT inconceivable to imagine a doubleing or tripling of the original estimate. that is in line with the history of ultra-large projects.

would you still support the NBN if you knew NOW that it would cost over $100B? BTW that was a genuine question. would you?

would you still support the NBN if you knew NOW that it would cost over $100B? BTW that was a genuine question. would you? longy

No I certainly would not, because then the economic viability to be able to provide a good service at a reasonable price, and still be able to pay off the investment in a 15 to 20 year time frame, would be gone.
If there were cost over runs of a large magnitude, then the most expensive per capita elements, would have to be re-assessed.

The whole principle of building a solid, Australia wide network, that is world best standard, future proof for generations, and able to pay for itself in a time frame similar to a home mortgage, is a good investment for the country to make, but if it were to become so expensive that the investment would never be paid back, then obviously it would need to be seriously altered, because that goes against one of the major principles of affordability.

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 9:50am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:47am: cods wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:32am: sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 9:20am: Nice. Now read the actual argument, not just things you can highlight, and work out what the business leaders in Tasmania think about the NBN, and how it will relate to Tasmania's economy. ok what part did you have in mind? I dont understand how the NBN will relate to the economy.. perhaps you can fill me in on that. Unfortunately it would be impossible to explain basic principles of the Australian economy to you - it requires you to have some level of comprehension that is above a 3rd grade level :(   Especially considering you haven't even read the article and go straight into your usual misconceived load of jibberish. which means you cant explain the economic benefits of the NBN either. beyond constructon and the employment for it there is no siginificant economic benefit from the NBN itself.

Hmmn,  I wonder why Tony Abbott doesn't take your advice?!!?  :-[ :-[ :o

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 12:06pm:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 18th, 2011 at 11:58am: Typical of Business leaders to say give it all to me or it is a waste. Typical of major projects to do pilot testing on a smaller scale. Major cities already have pretty fast internet services available and the benefits of making them first in the queue is debatable. I'd write this one off as utter rubbish just an interest group pushing their own barrow. a normal commercial operation would receive an 11% acceptance of its product during its 'pilot' testing and determine that the market didnt actually want it. And given that it is free, what does that say to the interest factor in their product?

You don't understand governments role in society....  :'( :'( :-[ :-X

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 1:16pm:

Improvements in infrastructure need to be justified and they need to be affordable. the NBN is neither.

YOUR LAST SENTENCE MAKES YOU THE BIGGEST JOKE ON THE INTERNETS TODAY!  ;) ;) ;D

Maqqa wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 8:32am:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/business-chief-slams-nbn-rollout/story-e6frg6n6-1226040640114 THE first rollout of the National Broadband Network in Tasmania is a squandered opportunity and one of the worst examples of pork-barrelling, says the state's senior business leader. Tasmanian Chamber of Commerce and Industry chairman Troy Harper told The Australian that although the NBN was a great concept, the network's rollout in Tasmania was "a disgrace" and "madness". Mr Harper said the initial rollout should have focused on the cities, where the take-up rate by businesses and homes would have been greatest, instead of on three small towns, including two in rural areas. The criticism brought a swift rebuke from Communications Minister Stephen Conroy, who said people were entitled to affordable high-speed broadband services no matter where they chose to live or work. "The NBN will deliver this, and the government is getting on with rolling it out," a spokeswoman for Senator Conroy said. Mr Harper blamed former Tasmanian premier David Bartlett for what he saw as the failings of the initial NBN rollout. "We've had some bad examples of pork-barrelling, but these (the rollout in the towns of Smithton, Scottsdale and Midway Point) would be some of the worst," he said. "For a premier who was supposedly IT-savvy, it is possibly the worst betrayal a state has seen in terms of a performance from a political leader." Mr Bartlett, who resigned as premier in late January, declined to comment, but a government spokesman distanced the state from the decision to begin with the three small towns. "It was the NBN Co, not the Tasmanian government, that chose the three initial rollout towns, and they had control of the rollout, not the Tasmanian government," the spokesman said. "The rationale was that the initial rollout had a trial component and it was designed to identify and fix problems. It was far easier to do that in three small towns than in a rollout to the major metropolitan centres." NBN Co defended the choice of the three towns, saying the pilot program aimed to test construction techniques and working with retail services. "Those were pilot sites and they are a starting point," a company spokeswoman said. She pointed out that the take-up rate for the network in Tasmania was approaching 15 per cent. "It's not an end point," she said. "There are seven more sites that have been named for the next phase, and we hope to be making announcements soon on the start of construction on those." Mr Harper said the NBN could have been a "really important part of Tasmania's future" and was a great opportunity for Tasmania to get connections with the mainland. "That has been categorically squandered," he said. "It's a disgrace the way that wonderful strategy has been an absolute implementation disaster." He said rolling the network out first to cities would have been a boon for Tasmania's key growth service-based industries and proved what benefits the networks could bring nationally. "And everyone who took it up would be a marketing opportunity to say 'Hasn't this changed our business, what a wonderful job it's done -- we're doing business in ways we never imagined'," Mr Harper said. For the network's initial rollout, the federal and state governments chose three towns: Smithton, a quiet rural timber area in Tasmania's northwest, Scottsdale, a timber town in the rural northeast, and Midway Point, on Hobart's eastern outskirts. Scottsdale, population 950, and Smithton, population 1609, are in the seats of Bass and Braddon, which until last year's federal election were marginal, and support for the NBN was seen as a factor in swings to Labor. Midway Point is in less marginal Lyons, which was further shored up by Labor at last year's poll. While politically popular in these towns, take-up rates for the high-speed internet have been low, at about 11 per cent, according to figures released by the federal government last year. Mr Harper said targeting the stage one rollout on three small towns in key seats showed it was a "political solution". The rollout of fibre-optic cable was proceeding incredibly slowly, the chamber chief said. "At the rate we're going . . . it would take 50 years to complete the rollout in Tasmania, and 2000 years to have the rest of the country wired."

Next!!!

;)

mozzaok wrote on Apr 18^th, 2011 at 8:23pm:

would you still support the NBN if you knew NOW that it would cost over $100B? BTW that was a genuine question. would you? longy No I certainly would not, because then the economic viability to be able to provide a good service at a reasonable price, and still be able to pay off the investment in a 15 to 20 year time frame, would be gone. If there were cost over runs of a large magnitude, then the most expensive per capita elements, would have to be re-assessed. The whole principle of building a solid, Australia wide network, that is world best standard, future proof for generations, and able to pay for itself in a time frame similar to a home mortgage, is a good investment for the country to make, but if it were to become so expensive that the investment would never be paid back, then obviously it would need to be seriously altered, because that goes against one of the major principles of affordability.

well at least you understand that there are limits to what infrastructure should cost. frankly that puts you above a lot of posters who would presumably spend $300B so they can download the latest movie illegally but faster!

You are however assuming the NBN sticks close to its budget. History almost demands it wont and will exceed it by a factor of at least 100% as that wouldbe a typical example. You also assume the NBN will eb able to pay its own way which many analysts doubt. You also assume that fibre wont be outmoded by a faster and much cheaper non-cabled alternative in the near future. Given the speed of technology that seems a little naive.

and yet at the end of the day 85% of australians get ABSOLUTELY NOTHING more than they already have. THAT is my objection. a truckload of money for nothing!