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General Discussion >> General Board >> Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1301735709 Message started by imcrookonit on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 7:15pm |
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Title: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by imcrookonit on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 7:15pm
JAPAN'S unfolding nuclear disaster is "much bigger than Chernobyl" and could rewrite the international scale used to measure the severity of atomic accidents, a Russian expert says. :(
"Chernobyl was a dirty bomb explosion. The next dirty bomb is Fukushima and it will cost much more" in economic and human terms, Natalia Mironova said. Ms Mironova is thermodynamic engineer who became a leading anti-nuclear activist in Russia in the wake of the accident at the Soviet-built reactor in Ukraine in 1986. "Fukushima is much bigger than Chernobyl," she said, adding that the Japanese nuclear crisis was likely to eclipse Chernobyl on the seven-point international scale used to rate nuclear disasters. :( Chernobyl, which a 2005 report by UN bodies including the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) called "the most severe in the history of the nuclear power industry", was ranked a seven on the International Nuclear Event Scale (INES). But Japan's ongoing crisis, triggered by a massive earthquake and tsunami three weeks ago which took down the main electricity and back-up power supplies needed to power cooling systems at several reactors at Fukushima, could be "even higher" on the INES scale, she said. "Chernobyl was level seven and it had only one reactor and lasted only two weeks. We have now three weeks (at Fukushima) and we have four reactors which we know are in very dangerous situations," she said. Japan's nuclear safety agency has maintained its rating of the Fukushima accident at four, while a French watchdog has upgraded it to six. Chernobyl's death toll is hotly debated. UN agencies estimate up to 9000 people could be expected to die as a direct consequence of the accident, and the disaster will end up costing hundreds of billions of dollars. Environmental groups such as Greenpeace say up to 100,000 people could die. :( Ms Mironova is touring the United States with other Russian anti-nuclear activists, including Tatiana Muchamedyarova and Natalia Manzurova, who worked as a "liquidator", or emergency clean-up and recovery worker, at Chernobyl. Their visit was originally planned to coincide with the 25th anniversary of the Chernobyl meltdown, which occurred on April 26, 1986. But in the wake of the disaster in Japan, Ms Mironova and her colleagues rewrote their presentations to compare the accident at Chernobyl with Fukushima. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by imcrookonit on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 7:17pm
Nuclear power for Australia - No thanks. :(
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by longweekend58 on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 7:36pm
as quoted by a RUSSIAN desperate for anything to take the stain away from their own embarrassment cause simply by shocking technology, a disregard for even the basics of safety and a political system that virtually decrees failure.
Japan was hit by twin natural disasters of a HUGE magnitude. Russia was hit by indifference and stellar incompetence. The russian is tryign to save face and it aint working. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Dnarever on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 7:51pm
When you put yourself in the position where it all blows up does it really matter why?
The result is one hell of a mess and this one makes Chernobyl look like a xmas party. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by longweekend58 on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 7:55pm Dnarever wrote on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 7:51pm:
not even close to true. Chernobyl was a MELTDOWN. Japans problems are severe but not this severe. And the day you start taking notes from a Russian on anything is the day your credibility drops. and at least Japan had the worlds worst natural disaster in recent history to use as an excuse. The russians were simply criminally incompetent. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Dnarever on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 7:59pm longweekend58 wrote on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 7:55pm:
It will make the people who die because of it feel a lot better. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by perceptions_now on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 8:06pm longweekend58 wrote on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 7:36pm:
Whereas Japan, was hit by indifference and stellar incompetence! Why? Because they chose not to take note of history and properly mitigate for events that were very possible and in the case of the Tsunami, there was already history, that exceeded their mitigation attempts. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by perceptions_now on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 8:11pm longweekend58 wrote on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 7:55pm:
LW, Do you actually read any information? If you had, you would know that several of the Japanese reactors have had partial meltdowns, as a minimum and possibly a full meltdown. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Dnarever on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 8:15pm longweekend58 wrote on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 7:55pm:
The best programmer on my team is a Russian (a Mad russian programmer). I tend to take notice of his opinion on almost anything in his field of expertise. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Equitist on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 8:43pm There was one only reactor involved at Chernobyl. There are four reactors involved at Fukushima I. There are also four spent fuel pools at Fukushima I. The amount of at-risk nuclear material at Fukushima dwarfs Chernobyl. Chernobyl was 'controlled' in 2 weeks, Fukushima is 3 weeks and counting. The Chernobyl incident response was not hampered by the risks of ongoing severe seismic aftershocks. The Chernobyl facility did not suffer underground structural cracking that led to leakage into the water table. The Fukushima incident is releasing dangerous fission products - including plutonium - into the atmosphere, soil, groundwater and ocean. The Fukushima incident could cause sudden heating of groundwater - with a possible steam-driven explosion that could further compromise the structure of the reactor buildings and cooling equipment. If one Fukushima reactor has unforeseen problems causing abandonment, another 3 will probably meltdown - along with thousands of spent fuel rods. The Chernobyl incident was suitable for a Sarcophagus solution but there are gravely different risks with the Fukushima plants. Are you feeling lucky, punks, cos I'm not! |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by darkhall67 on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 9:29pm
The Fukushima plant was stupidly built on the coast of a country on a continental plate famous for earthquakes.
Stupid stupid stupid. That's private corporations for you. Nuclear plants MUST be government owned and government regulated. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Grey on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 10:16pm Quote:
William Tucker was one of the 'experts' who appeared on lateline to assure us that a meltdown through the steel and concrete containment vessel was impossible. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704893604576198421680697248.html?mod=djemEditorialPage_t It's bullshit all the way down http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/04/02/3180696.htm?section=justin |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by longweekend58 on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 10:55pm perceptions_now wrote on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 8:06pm:
seriously. you ARE an idiot. get some help. you claim to understand history yet every time you open your mouth you demonstrate just how little you actually know. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by longweekend58 on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 10:57pm perceptions_now wrote on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 8:11pm:
wrong, wrong and VERY wrong. do you even know what a MELTDOWN is? it is not an exposed core. it is the total loss of control of a nuclear reaction without cooling. Do you imagine ALL your posts? it would certainly explain a lot of them. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by longweekend58 on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 10:59pm Dnarever wrote on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 8:15pm:
in programming... what about nuclear physics? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by thelastnail on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 11:07pm longweekend58 wrote on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 7:36pm:
and a lousy diesel generator was the cause of the catastrophic failure of the buggerashima reactor !! At the end of the day it is still a catastrophe but there is a role for you to go over there and help them fix up the reactor. It might shorten your life considerably and you might die a painful death but suffering is a good thing according to christian faith :) LOL |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by thelastnail on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 11:09pm longweekend58 wrote on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 7:55pm:
and it's going to take at least 100 years to clean up and it will be a no go zone just like Chernobyl so WTF are you trying to down play it for ?? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by pansi1951 on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 6:49am Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 11:09pm:
Because it was gods will, and longwinded must stick up for his god. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by perceptions_now on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 9:27am longweekend58 wrote on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 10:57pm:
Nuclear meltdown A nuclear meltdown is a severe nuclear reactor accident that results in core damage from overheating.The term is not officially defined by the International Atomic Energy Agency[1] or by the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission.[2] However, it has been defined to mean the accidental melting of the core of a nuclear reactor,[3] and is in common usage a reference to the core's either complete or partial collapse. "Core melt accident" and "partial core melt"[4] are the analogous technical terms. A core melt accident occurs when the heat generated by a nuclear reactor exceeds the heat removed by the cooling systems to the point where at least one nuclear fuel element exceeds its melting point. A meltdown may be caused by a loss of coolant, loss of coolant pressure, or low coolant flow rate or be the result of a criticality excursion in which the reactor is operated at a power level that exceeds its . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_meltdown Meltdown fears at Fukushima, radiation spreads As dangerously high levels of radiation spread beyond the Fukushima exclusion zone in Japan, there are fears the race to contain the nuclear crisis has been lost and meltdown has already taken place. Richard Lahey, head of safety research for this type of reactor at General Electric, which installed the reactors at Fukushima in the 1970s, says workers at the site appear to have lost the race to save the crippled No. 2 reactor. The Guardian newspaper quotes him as saying he believes the reactor core has melted through the bottom of the pressure vessel and at least some of it is down on the concrete floor beneath. This would mean in simple terms the accident is no longer a matter of melting fuel rods, but of meltdown. http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/31/3178263.htm ================ There are a many reports of a partial meltdown already and the Japanese government & the owners of the Fuku plant aren't running around like headless chooks, for no good reason, they are trying to prevent a full meltdown or another full meltdown. So LW, how was my post wrong? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by perceptions_now on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 9:30am longweekend58 wrote on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 10:55pm:
How LW, HOW AM I WRONG? You could try a fact or two, every now and again, just to mix things up a little, with all of the stuff you imagine! |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Dnarever on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 9:59am longweekend58 wrote on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 10:59pm:
"the day you start taking notes from a Russian on anything" It is probably a shock to you to find that I do not know any Russian nuclear Physicists but if I did he would probably be the best authority I would know on the topic. The only nuclear physicist I have known is an ex brit who works with Sydney Uni and the CSIRO,(I worked on a contract at Sydney uni in medical radiation sciences dept) the next best is a technician I worked with who is now at Lucas heights working with a research team. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by thelastnail on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 5:24pm perceptions_now wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 9:30am:
it's wrong because if you stop Uranium production then some share holders might suffer ;) LOL |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Andrei.Hicks on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 5:26pm
You do realise shareholders in Australia are contributing to the wealth of the country and paying tax on capital gains etc.
Why you have such an angry and envious tone towards them is beyond me. How about supporting your fellow Aussies, Lastnail? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by thelastnail on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 5:48pm Andrei.Hicks wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 5:26pm:
I do support them. I suggested that Holden build an electric car for the locals so they can drive straight past the fool bowser and save $$$$$$$ by reducing their dependency on foreign oil as well as creating jobs for the local automotive manufacturing sector ;) What more could you want !! ;) |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by longweekend58 on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 8:49pm Dnarever wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 9:59am:
IM not quite sure where you get your feeling that Russian nuclear technology is somehow superior to everyone elses. I thougth Chernobyl was proof positive of the opposite. Or perhaps it was the multiple failed nuclear tests in the early days. IN most areas of techology, russians are well behind the rest of the world - as are all planned economies - and nthe stuff they got that works was based on stolen plans. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by darkhall67 on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 9:03pm
I live in Tokyo.
As a consequence I am still monitoring the daily reports of radiation levels and preventative measures to combat radiation sickness etc BUT I am a proponent of nuclear energy because i think it is the CLEANEST energy available. But I hasten to add that it is only the safest and cleanest energy source IF it is taken out of the reach of private corporations and solely government owned,run and regulated. Letting a private corporation decide WHERE a plant is to be built (ie the CHEAPEST location possible) is inviting the disaster that tepco is experiencing (building a nuclear plant with 6 reactors on the COAST of a country on continental plants and known and FAMOUS for its earthquakes) is ridiculous in the extreme. Government owned , run and regulated energy companies are the only way to go. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by perceptions_now on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 9:21pm darkhall67 wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 9:03pm:
Can you reccomend any sites, which have good updates of information, including none government PR? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by buzzanddidj on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 9:43pm longweekend58 wrote on Apr 2nd, 2011 at 7:55pm:
The old Liberal whore is the LAST one who should be bringing up "credibility" She'll defend nuclear power, spills n all, till Hell freezes over - or when it ceases to be Liberal Party policy |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by perceptions_now on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 9:44pm perceptions_now wrote on Apr 3rd, 2011 at 9:27am:
Have you found any answers yet, LW? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 4th, 2011 at 7:49am
PN, the biggest error in your post is that you don't seem to understand exactly what a 'core-meltdown' actually is....
Or what the consequences are for the reactor unit, the company and the world at large.... |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by pansi1951 on Apr 4th, 2011 at 8:17am
<<<<Or what the consequences are for the reactor unit, the company and the world at large.... >>>>
........................................................................................... Whatever we know or don't know, one thing for sure is that the consequences will be BAD. Even the 'experts' don't know. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by perceptions_now on Apr 4th, 2011 at 8:23am gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 4th, 2011 at 7:49am:
Well, instead of just doing an LW and saying I'm wrong, why don't YOU explain it & the consequences, for the reactor unit, the company and the world at large? And then, we can compare your explanations, to reality & what other "experts" are saying? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by mavisdavis on Apr 4th, 2011 at 8:24am
Sensible debate of this emotive issue is understandably handicapped by those same emotions that rule the thinking of so many involved. While there are those who want to discuss the broad range of issues linked to the core issue of nuclear power generation, there is a surplus of closed minds with a "sky is falling" mindset.
I for one, am a nuclear agnostic, but its nearly impossible, on a forum such as this one to sensibly discuss. 1: What is the real risk of nuclear generated power given the technology we now have? 2: The nuclear waste factor. 3: Although the concept of renewable power generation is attractive, its over simplistic to place too much credence on renewables. 4: Considering #3, and assuming that the AGW forecasts are correct, we are faced with two choices, nuclear power, or Global Warming. 5: All Australians need to carefully plan for the death of the coal industry. The loss of income to this country will be severe, to the point of starvation for some of the disadvantaged in fact. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 4th, 2011 at 8:32am perceptions_now wrote on Apr 4th, 2011 at 8:23am:
Ok, in the case of a partial, or even a complete core melt the consequence for the Reactor unit is that it becomes unusable.......that's it... For the company--- They lose a lot of money due to having to build another reactor and decommission the old one (finish the shut down then either clean out and demolish, or clean out and seal up the old one) For the world at large- (without any containment and RPV breaches) ZERO (except some people might have problems with blackouts, if there's insufficent replacement electricity available nearby).... There you go |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by perceptions_now on Apr 4th, 2011 at 9:06am gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 4th, 2011 at 8:32am:
Absolutely amazing! You truly are, blinded by something! Why, because you have taken NO REGARD of the outcomes of previous events, in particular links that you actually posted, on the outcomes of the Chernobyl event, nor have you taken any regard of what many other experts have written & discussed, on this Japanese event, in respect of the ramifications for people, nor the Economic ramifications! As for the company, besides that some of the senior should be indicted & sent to goal for a long time, they will be essentially bankrupt and the government will most likely have to prop them up, in some way shape or form, with Public money! As for the world, the entire Japanese Tri-fecta (earthquake, Tsunami & Nuclear problem, will likely cost the world Economy something around 2-3% of GDP (around $60-65 Trillion) over the next 3-5 years. But, you knew all of this, it's already out there, for people who don't have fixed minds! That said, I still think we will have to have Nuclear as part of the Energy mix, over the next 100 years or so, as we move away from Fossil Fuels. Following are just 2 posts I have put up, specifically where are they incorrect - Nuclear meltdown A nuclear meltdown is a severe nuclear reactor accident that results in core damage from overheating.The term is not officially defined by the International Atomic Energy Agency[1] or by the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission.[2] However, it has been defined to mean the accidental melting of the core of a nuclear reactor,[3] and is in common usage a reference to the core's either complete or partial collapse. "Core melt accident" and "partial core melt"[4] are the analogous technical terms. A core melt accident occurs when the heat generated by a nuclear reactor exceeds the heat removed by the cooling systems to the point where at least one nuclear fuel element exceeds its melting point. A meltdown may be caused by a loss of coolant, loss of coolant pressure, or low coolant flow rate or be the result of a criticality excursion in which the reactor is operated at a power level that exceeds its . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_meltdown Meltdown fears at Fukushima, radiation spreads As dangerously high levels of radiation spread beyond the Fukushima exclusion zone in Japan, there are fears the race to contain the nuclear crisis has been lost and meltdown has already taken place. Richard Lahey, head of safety research for this type of reactor at General Electric, which installed the reactors at Fukushima in the 1970s, says workers at the site appear to have lost the race to save the crippled No. 2 reactor. The Guardian newspaper quotes him as saying he believes the reactor core has melted through the bottom of the pressure vessel and at least some of it is down on the concrete floor beneath. This would mean in simple terms the accident is no longer a matter of melting fuel rods, but of meltdown. http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/31/3178263.htm =============== There are a many reports of a partial meltdown already and the Japanese government & the owners of the Fuku plant aren't running around like headless chooks, for no good reason, they are trying to prevent a full meltdown or another full meltdown. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by perceptions_now on Apr 4th, 2011 at 9:10am
The second post, related to Chernobyl and was a report, actually raised by yourself. Your juggling of information is unbelievable!
Chernobyl Consequences of the Catastrophe for People and the Environment 7. Mortality after the Chernobyl Catastrophe The calculations suggest that the Chernobyl catastrophe has already killed several hundred thousand human beings in a population of several hundred million that was unfortunate enough to live in territories affected by the fallout. The number of Chernobyl victims will continue to grow over many future generations. 7.1. Increase in Antenatal Mortality Irradiation has an adverse effect on the ovum and the sperm, as well as on the embryo. The major observable components of antenatal mortality are spontaneous abortions or miscarriages (spontaneous interruption of pregnancy until the 27th week) and stillbirths (after 27 weeks). Increased numbers of stillbirths and miscarriages are among the first effects of irradiation, with a delay of only some weeks or months after exposure. These effects can occur after exposure to very low doses, that is, at whole body doses as low as 5 mSv (Loganovsky, 2005), but the reasons are not yet understood. 5. [b]Until 2004, the estimated total number of miscarriages and stillbirths in Ukraine as a result of Chernobyl was about 50,000 (Lypic, 2004).[/b] Conclusion to Chapter IV In the last days of spring and the beginning of summer of 1986, radioactivity was released from the Chernobyl power plant and fell upon hundreds of millions of people. The resulting levels of radionuclides were hundreds of times higher than that from the Hiroshima atomic bomb. The normal lives of tens of millions have been destroyed. Today, more than 6 million people live on land with dangerous levels of contamination—land that will continue to be contaminated for decades to centuries. Thus the daily questions: how to live and where to live [b]In the territories contaminated by the Chernobyl fallout it is impossible to engage safely in agriculture; impossible to work safely in forestry, in fisheries, and hunting; and dangerous to use local foodstuffs or to drink milk and even water. Those who live in these areas ask how to avoid the tragedy of a son or daughter born with malformations caused by irradiation. Soon after the catastrophe these profound questions arose among liquidators’ families, often too late to avoid tragedy.[/b] Link - http://www.strahlentelex.de/Yablokov%20Chernobyl%20book.pdf ============================== Will the Japanese event have similar outcomes, in terms of personal health & mortality, time will tell, although even without a full meltdown of one or more of the 6 reactors, one would have to suspect that the future for many Japanese in the affected areas (including Tokyo), may not be what they thought, only some 3 weeks ago! However, the health outcomes for those in affected areas, whilst that may be bad enough, pales when looking at the Economic effects of this event on the Global Economy, compared to the miniscule outcomes of Chernobyl, which we will come to later! |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by buzzanddidj on Apr 4th, 2011 at 12:27pm
Anti-nuke Greens sailing to power in German state
Sun Mar 27, 2011 BERLIN – Germany's anti-nuclear Greens on Sunday scored a remarkable victory over chancellor Angela Merkel's conservative party in a state election that had turned into a referendum on nuclear power in the wake of Japan's Fukushima disaster. The Greens doubled their voter share in wealthy Baden-Wuerttemberg state and seemed poised to oust Merkel's Christian Democrats who held power there for almost six decades, according to preliminary results released by the state electoral commission. The Greens are also set to win their first ever state governorship, the results showed. "This is a day that has strongly changed the political landscape in Germany," party chairwoman Claudia Roth said in Berlin. The Greens secured 24.2 percent of the vote, with the center-left Social Democrats down 2 percentage points at 23.1 percent. That secures them a narrow lead to form a coalition government with a combined 71 seats in the state legislature, the results showed. "We have secured what amounts to a historic electoral victory," the Greens' local leader Winfried Kretschmann told party members in Stuttgart. Representatives of all parties said the elections were overshadowed by Japan's nuclear crisis, turning them into a popular vote on the country's future use of nuclear power — which a majority of Germans oppose as they view it as inherently dangerous. Conservative governor Stefan Mappus, who has long been an advocate of nuclear energy, conceded defeat and said his party's lead in the polls dwindled away in the wake of the disaster at Japan's Fukushima nuclear facility. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110327/ap_on_re_eu/eu_germany_elections |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by buzzanddidj on Apr 4th, 2011 at 12:36pm gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 4th, 2011 at 8:32am:
Japan's wind industry hails earthquake-resilient turbines 18 Mar 2011 Japan's wind turbines survived last week's earthquake and as a result utilities have now asked wind farm operators to boost power output to make up for energy shortages in the country, the leader of the Japanese wind energy association has revealed. Writing on the Huffington Post, Kelly Rigg, chief executive of the Global Campaign for Climate Action, yesterday revealed she had spoken to Yoshinori Ueda, leader of the International Committee of the Japan Wind Power Association and Japan Wind Energy Association, who told her that none of its members reported damage to wind turbines after last week's natural disasters Although some wind turbines did stop operating as a result of grid failure caused by the earthquake and tsunami, Ueda said most Japanese wind turbines were fully operational, including the Kamisu semi-offshore wind farm which was located about 300km from the epicenter of the quake. Eurus Energy Holdings said on Monday that it had resumed operations at six wind farms in northern Japan, which had stopped running after the earthquake. The resumption of power output came in response to a request from Tohoku Electric Power, one of the utilities battling to cope with power shortages in the wake of the disaster. As Japan's nuclear crisis continues to unfold, investor confidence in renewable energy and fossil fuels is expected to rise, with doubts increasing around the saftey of nuclear power. http://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/2035300/japans-wind-industry-hails-earthquake-resilient-turbines |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 4th, 2011 at 1:37pm perceptions_now wrote on Apr 4th, 2011 at 9:06am:
First off..Chernobyl was a Reactor EXPLOSION, not a Reactor meltdown, so the two cases are entirely DISsimilar.... And secondly, while the c&p'd info is partial accurate, the definition of meltdon is correct, the Guardian's stuff about the material melting through the RPV is, at best, a misquote, and at worst, a complete load of bovine fecal matter.... |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Foolosophy on Apr 4th, 2011 at 1:51pm gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 4th, 2011 at 1:37pm:
where did the Plutonium in the soil come from? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by perceptions_now on Apr 4th, 2011 at 2:04pm gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 4th, 2011 at 1:37pm:
You say neither, I say niether - It is believed that for some unknown reason, there was a sudden loss of water that was used to cool 1,661 uranium fuel assemblies that were set in pressure pipes surrounded by 1,700 tons of graphite blocks, causing the fuel rods to overheat. The zirconium alloy around the fuel assemblies, along with the pressure tubing, melted at about 3,500 degrees Fahrenheit, overheating the graphite. The temperature rose still more. At 5,100 degrees Fahrenheit, the uranium-oxide fuel began to melt. The operators flooded the reactor with water. It was too late and the water was instantly turned into a superheated steam, which reacted with the graphite, fuel and zirconium to produce hydrogen, methane, and carbon monoxide. Over many hours, the gases built up and combined with oxygen released by the cracked pressure tubes, triggering a massive explosion. (Barnathan & Strasser 22-23) In any event, forgetting cause & effect, many of the outcomes are similar, in terms of some health problems, but the Fukushima Economic outcomes will clearly be much, much greater! Perhaps not, it depends on who you accept as a valid source of information. I certain don't accept your uncorroberated words! |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Foolosophy on Apr 4th, 2011 at 2:11pm perceptions_now wrote on Apr 4th, 2011 at 2:04pm:
There is no secret as to what caused the Chernobyl incident. THe plant operators were carrying out a trial - an experiment. The final operational decision and act carried out by the control room operators caused a catastrophic explosion (and subsequent fire) 49 seconds later. You can do that with a dough making machine in a Biscuit facotry, BUT NOT in a nuclear power facility In the US, for example, direct subsidies to nuclear energy amounted to $115 billion between 1947 and 1999, with an additional $145 billion in indirect subsidies. In contrast, subsidies to wind and solar energy combined over the same period totalled only $5.5 billion. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 4th, 2011 at 2:54pm perceptions_now wrote on Apr 4th, 2011 at 2:04pm:
Exactly....now, the big difference between the Fukushima reactors and Chernobyl #4 is this...Fukushima HAS got RPV's and Containment Vessels...Chernobyl didn't... I understand about Chernobyl....they were running a test on one of the emergency core cooling features (which obviously didn't work) and the temperature spiked....And yes adding water did cause the steam explosions which ruptured the reactor casing... However it didn't take 'hours' for the pressure to blast the casing open... The test started at 1:23:04 am, the automatic systems triggered an emergency shut down (SCRAM) 36 seconds later, and the first explosion was a 'few' seconds after that and the second 3 seconds later..etc.. The fire alarms went off (after the casing ruptured and set fire to the building) at 1:26:03 am...a little under 3 minutes later... Anyway...the point is, none of this has happened in Japan...because we'd sure as hell know by now...AND in the case of Fukushima...even if the reactor casings HAVE ruptured, there are still TWO more levels of containment that must fail before the reactor core is exposed to the air... |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Foolosophy on Apr 4th, 2011 at 3:07pm
...when will the radaition leaks stop in fukushima?
When will the fuel rods be removed? When can people swim in the seas off the coast of fukushima? When will radiation levels reduce to normal? In the air, soil and water??? Why is there Plutonium in the soil? How much is there? Dotn worry people TEPCO will sort it out - and the corporate Japanese puppet government will ensure that everybody in the world is kept informed The IAEA will see to that! LOL Like they covered up 980,000 Chernobyl deaths (so far) All I can suggest is for those apologists of the corporate nuclear power indusrty to go to a Japanese restaraunt tonight and order the mushroom soup or a specifically imported Japanese Fish dish enjoy your Plutnium tea and internally emitting alpha seaweed |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 4th, 2011 at 3:13pm Foolosophy wrote on Apr 4th, 2011 at 3:07pm:
And what page/chapter and section are the 985,000 (oops it's dropped to 980,000 now..Have 5000 people been 'miraculously' resurrected??) of the report are these deaths mentioned??? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by perceptions_now on Apr 4th, 2011 at 3:16pm gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 4th, 2011 at 2:54pm:
So, was that you agreeing that I shouldn't take your word, for anything, as you keep changing what you say? So, after the RPV ruptures/cracks/melts, there are still 2 more levels of containment, before the core is exposed? And, they are what? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 4th, 2011 at 3:28pm perceptions_now wrote on Apr 4th, 2011 at 3:16pm:
No that was me saying that there was a power spike which led to the explosion.. Ok, I may have included one too many levels.. There's the concrete and steel containment vessel to hold in any explosions....which Chernobyl didn't have...and, depending on size and design, there's the actual building housing it all......which doesn' necessaily help with but weather.... |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by perceptions_now on Apr 4th, 2011 at 3:59pm gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 4th, 2011 at 3:28pm:
Now, let's just clarify? You talked about if the reactor casings HAVE ruptured and you talked about the concrete and steel containment vessel to hold in any explosions. Are they both not the same as the Reactor Pressure Vessel (RPV), that I raised? And, in case you haven't noticed, much of the surrounding Concrete & Steel building structure, is no longer there on a few of these Fukushima reactors! Is that about right? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by thelastnail on Apr 4th, 2011 at 4:40pm gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 4th, 2011 at 1:37pm:
splitting hairs are you gizmo ;) LOL |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 4th, 2011 at 4:41pm perceptions_now wrote on Apr 4th, 2011 at 3:59pm:
I sort of stuffed up the idea when I said Containment AND RPV... IF the casing HAD ruptured, there'd still be the concrete (and steel?) Secondary Containment Vessel.... I admit the error, I'm not an engineer involved in Reactor construction...Fukushima still has at least one more level of containment around the core than Chernobyl had.. And NONE of the Fukushima reactor Cores are exposed...Same difference though...Chernobyl's reaction chamber core WAS blasted open by the explosions....and NONE of the Fukushima cores have been opened... |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 4th, 2011 at 4:46pm Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 4th, 2011 at 4:40pm:
No nails, not 'splitting hairs'....pointing out radical differences.. Similar to the 'difference' between EV's and Hybrids... |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by thelastnail on Apr 4th, 2011 at 4:50pm gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 4th, 2011 at 4:46pm:
very poor analogy I'm afraid when you consider the radiation leakage and fallout :( |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 4th, 2011 at 4:59pm Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 4th, 2011 at 4:50pm:
No not really...small amount of leakage and , so far, absolutely ZERO fallout... Most of the 'leakage' is from the steam releases and cracks in the expended rod cooling pools..very little to none from the reactors themselves. And unless this change an incredible amount.....there won't ever be any fallout... |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by buzzanddidj on Apr 4th, 2011 at 5:05pm gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 4th, 2011 at 4:41pm:
Japanese withheld information on high radiation at Fukushima April 04, 2011 THE Japanese government withheld the release of data showing that levels of radiation more than 30 kilometers from the crippled Fukushima nuclear plant exceeded safe levels, broadcaster NHK reported Monday citing official documents. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by perceptions_now on Apr 5th, 2011 at 12:48pm
Newly Released TEPCO Data Provides Evidence of Periodic Chain Reaction at Fukushima Unit 1
April 3rd, 2011 - Embedded Video at below site Recent press reports have discussed the possibility that Fukushima Unit 1 may be having a nuclear chain reaction. New data released by TEPCO indicates that even though Fukushima Unit 1 was shut down during the March 11 earthquake, it appears to have "gone critical" again without human intervention. The detection by TEPCO of short-lived radioactive isotopes substantiates the existence of this inadvertent criticality. New Images Reveal Nuclear Fuel Rack Exposed to Air March 31st, 2011 No 2- Embedded Video at below site Fairewinds Chief Engineer, Arnie Gundersen, analyzes new video from the Fukushima Daiichi Plant. Gundersen determines that the fuel rack in reactor building 4 is exposed to air. Update on Fukushima: Discussion of High Level Radiation Releases and the Previous "Worse Case Senario" Planned for by The Industry March 31st, 2011 No 1- Embedded Video at below site Gundersen describes the Fukushima plant as stable, but precarious. In this update, he discusses the high levels of radiation (2 Million disintegrations/second being found on the ground as far as 25 miles from the plant site.) He also addresses a New York Times report of hundreds of tons of water being put into the reactors each day. Gundersen points out that all of the water going in to the reactors is being irradiated, leaking out, and polluting the Ocean. He concludes by discussing the differences between the accident scenarios that the nuclear industry previously planned for and what has actually happened. Update on Fukushima: Discovery of Plutonium Leakage and Highly Radioactive Water March 29th, 2011 - Embedded Video at below site Arnie Gundersen, Chief Engineer of Fairewinds Associates, discusses the recent finding of plutonium in the soil at five locations around the Daiichi power plant. He also addresses the discovery of highly radioactive water found in trenches which appear to be draining into the ocean. News on Fukushima Daiichi March 25th, 2011 - Embedded Video at below site Arnie Gundersen discusses the specifics of radiation exposure. Update on Fukushima Daiichi March 23rd, 2011 - Embedded Video at below site Link - http://www.fairewinds.com/updates ================================ A series of 6 embedded video updates, these video's are very informative and relatively easy to understand and I recommend spending the time, to gain an understanding of these very serious issues. Full details of the video's maker (Arnold Gundersen) are available at the following link. However, his background briefly is - Arnie is an energy advisor with 39-years of nuclear power engineering experience. A former nuclear industry senior vice president, he earned his Bachelor's and Master's Degrees in nuclear engineering, holds a nuclear safety patent, and was a licensed reactor operator. During his nuclear industry career, Arnie managed and coordinated projects at 70-nuclear power plants around the country. As the former vice president in an engineering organization, Arnie led the team of engineers who developed the plans for decommissioning Shippingport, the first major nuclear power plant in the US to be fully dismantled. http://www.fairewinds.com/content/who-we-are |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Foolosophy on Apr 5th, 2011 at 12:53pm
Will the radiation from the Fukushima nuclear waste dump cease by the 2096 Olympic games?
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by thelastnail on Apr 5th, 2011 at 2:18pm gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 4th, 2011 at 3:28pm:
and you forgot about the effects of the price of fish on mars contributing to this catastrophe !! What better scapegoat for a nuclear reactor catastrophe than those pesky Martians ;) LOL |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 5th, 2011 at 2:53pm Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 2:18pm:
Ok Nails, you carry on panicking about the fallout and buying potassium tablets etc.... And I'll sit here and admire how well the plant held together (in the circumstances) and applaud the actions of the workers how are trying to bring the reactors back under control....ok?? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by thelastnail on Apr 5th, 2011 at 3:27pm gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 2:53pm:
you do realise that the workers trying to fix up the plant are dead men walking :( |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 5th, 2011 at 3:34pm Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 3:27pm:
Perhaps they are.......which just makes them all the more heroic, don't you think??? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by muso on Apr 5th, 2011 at 3:35pm mavisdavis wrote on Apr 4th, 2011 at 8:24am:
- which is why the blow should be softened in the short term. It's always a case of finding the lowest risk path. Shutting down every coal-fired power station in Australia next week is a high risk path (insanely high?) It has to be managed gradually, |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Lisa on Apr 5th, 2011 at 3:41pm
Japan's dumping all that radioactive waste into the Pacific ocean now.
Suddenly I don't want to eat any more fish now for some reason. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Lisa on Apr 5th, 2011 at 4:08pm |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by thelastnail on Apr 5th, 2011 at 4:16pm Lisa Jones wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 3:41pm:
gizmo will eat it ;) |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 5th, 2011 at 4:18pm Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 4:16pm:
Given the background radiation levels of the ocean anyway, and the solubility of the contaminents in the dumped water...I'd happily eat Australian caught fish... |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by it_is_the_light on Apr 5th, 2011 at 4:22pm
i pity the fools that are being led by gizmo if
any entity gains control over humanity with this thought pattern..stagnant sure to reap early death with huberis and ignorance thats mr T interrupting the channel forgiven namaste |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by thelastnail on Apr 5th, 2011 at 4:35pm it_is_the_light wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 4:22pm:
gizmo is only ever happy when the majority are enslaved to his corporate masters :( |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 5th, 2011 at 4:41pm it_is_the_light wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 4:22pm:
Awww what's wrong wharfy?? Are you upset because I keep pointing out your stupidity??? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 5th, 2011 at 4:43pm Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 4:35pm:
What 'corporate masters'??? I only try to 'enslave' people to reality......which I do understand is a problem for lots of the posters on here... |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by thelastnail on Apr 5th, 2011 at 4:48pm gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 4:43pm:
:) LOL. go over and volunteer in Japan to help them clean up their SAFE reactors ;) LOL |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 5th, 2011 at 4:50pm Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 4:48pm:
I would if I could...But, unfortunately, I don't have the required skill set right now, and I have commitments that keep me here... |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by thelastnail on Apr 5th, 2011 at 4:59pm gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 4:50pm:
Don't worry. they just need idiots who are going to risk their lives so the accountants can still balance the books and report to the share holders. Sounds like a job for you gizmo ;) |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Foolosophy on Apr 5th, 2011 at 5:09pm
My esitmates show that there shouldn't be more than 2.73 million deaths resulting form this Fukushima nuclear waste dump disaster.
The corporate bonuses will be handed out, promotions, medals and business awards The epitaphs will be constructed for the 712 workers who will eventually be sacrificed so that the BOARD can remain intact to receive their annual bonuses. Business as usual cover up after cover up |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 5th, 2011 at 5:16pm Foolosophy wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 5:09pm:
And reality and experience shows there shouldn't be more than a maximum of 500 deaths....fun huh?? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 5th, 2011 at 5:25pm Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 4:59pm:
How can you call the workers 'idiots'??.... IF you're right about the radiation levels ( which isn't likely, given all the other posts you make), then those workers are willingly sacrificing/risking their lives to protect their families and the rest of the population of Japan (and perhaps the world).... Would you call firefighters, paramedics, police/ambulance rescue crews, mine rescue workers and soldiers 'idiots' too??? If so, I hope YOU are never in a situation where someone risks their OWN life to save YOU..... All I can say is, I pity any children you might have...How would a child feel...growing up with a parent who thinks risking his/her health to save them is 'idiocy'??? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by pansi1951 on Apr 5th, 2011 at 5:37pm gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 5:16pm:
<<It was grim. We went from hospital to hospital and from one contaminated village to another. We found deformed and genetically mutated babies in the wards; pitifully sick children in the homes; adolescents with stunted growth and dwarf torsos; foetuses without thighs or fingers and villagers who told us every member of their family was sick. This was 20 years after the accident but we heard of many unusual clusters of people with rare bone cancers. One doctor, in tears, told us that one in three pregnancies in some places was malformed and that she was overwhelmed by people with immune and endocrine system disorders. Others said they still saw caesium and strontium in the breast milk of mothers living far from the areas thought to be most affected, and significant radiation still in the food chain. Villages testified that "the Chernobyl necklace" – thyroid cancer – was so common as to be unremarkable; many showed signs of accelerated ageing.>> That's 20 years AFTER the accident. It might keep happening for another 20 years or 200 years....nobody really knows. Gizmo....a suitable comeback could be that they can't prove it was a result of the Chernobyl accident. Or you could give us one of your own, everyone needs a laugh now and then. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Foolosophy on Apr 5th, 2011 at 5:49pm
...985,000 deaths POST CHERNOBYL and counting
40% of Europe contaminated TODAY - and for at least 600 years depending on which isotope you choose that will give you cancer |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 5th, 2011 at 5:50pm Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 5:37pm:
No, that was at Chernobyl...which is massively different to Fukushima... Chernobyl WAS a major disaster and did indeed produce lots of problems.. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Foolosophy on Apr 5th, 2011 at 5:52pm gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 5:50pm:
...problems??? 985,000 deaths is a problem? 40% of Europe contaminated is a problem? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 5th, 2011 at 5:54pm Foolosophy wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 5:52pm:
Yes, some 'imagined problems' and some real ones.. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by perceptions_now on Apr 5th, 2011 at 7:41pm gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 5:54pm:
Well Gizmo, you would know all about imagination, since it seems to comprise, much of your posts! Btw, you mentioned a figure of 500 deaths, what reality & experience do you base that on? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Foolosophy on Apr 5th, 2011 at 8:13pm
...gizmo is an apologist for the criminal corporate slave system that deludes him.
They can do NO wrong Their CEO's are angels with perfect moral wings Now according to gizmo's world, TEPCO is doing the rigth thing in filling the ocean with 11.500 tonnes of radioactive water gizmo may dismiss the 985,000+ deaths from Chernobyl, and prefer the coroporately moral 500 figure bUT the New Yoirk Academy of Sciences cant Read the report - its a nice summary of 6000 articles over many decades. Surely youre not suggesting its cherry picking? LOL Also today, TEPCO announced that samples taken from seawater near one of the reactors contained 7.5 million times the legal limit for radioactive iodine on April 2. Two days later, that figure dropped to 5 million. As I stated before the "10 million" figure that TEPCO publically released was an actual reading - thats why teh Authorities rebuked the measurement to avoid creating panic The lunatics are running the asylum |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 5th, 2011 at 9:53pm perceptions_now wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 7:41pm:
I base the '500 deaths' prediction on several things... 1) Foolosophy 'qouted' 2.73 million.....so based on her earlier claims of 985,000 for Chernobyl (when it's actually 9,000) that gives us a rough estimate of 1/100,000th of whatever Foolosophy 'claims' 2) And then there's the fact that very little radiation has leaked from Fukushima, so the only people who are really at risk are the crews working to control the reactors.. So right at this moment, the only people who 'may' die from radiation are the disaster and repair crews..and there's only 712 of them, so a 'predicted' mortality of about 3/4 sounds a little over the top...but I decided to err on the pessimistic side.. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Foolosophy on Apr 5th, 2011 at 10:26pm gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 9:53pm:
The 2.73 million resulting from Fukushima over the next few decades is just my guess The 985,000 deaths from Chernobyl is based on a 2010 report by the NY Academy of Sciences - in which they translated about 6000 articles from Russian and other languages into English. gizmo - youre an apologist for corporate fascism rigth till the end - well done Only you dont have to validate yourself in here - you need to do it to your children (if you have any) or your familiy members You look them in the eye and lie - its easy to lie in here and then run away |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by thelastnail on Apr 5th, 2011 at 10:56pm perceptions_now wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 7:41pm:
The libbos always only include the instant death count at the time of the disaster. The ones that die a slow lingering death due to radiation induced complications such as CANCER are always conveniently ignored in their count :( |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by thelastnail on Apr 5th, 2011 at 10:58pm Foolosophy wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 10:26pm:
gizmo reads to many andrew bolt columns in the Herald Sun. Bolt was talking once how there were only a handful that died from Chernobyl :( |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by perceptions_now on Apr 5th, 2011 at 11:02pm gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 9:53pm:
In other words, you have done the same as you have done in many, many posts, you have used your imagination, instead of the reality of facts, without proper information and you have done so in the absence of any real experience. In short, your providing support for somethings that are real & apparent dangers and your doing so with fudged information, the question is why? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by perceptions_now on Apr 5th, 2011 at 11:30pm
'Catastrophic water dump means Fukushima really out of control'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDeFNDsfeoI&feature=player_embedded Has anyone taken the time to see why the tides are taking this water, after it leaves Fukushima? If it is initially going up & down the Japanese coast and the waste is being deposited into seaweed, shellfish & fish, then I can see a FEW problems, in Japan & that's before we look further afield? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Equitist on Apr 5th, 2011 at 11:36pm So, are we there yet - are there any officials out there who are prepared to admit that this is at least as big as or even bigger (albeit in vastly different circumstances) than Chernobyl!? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Foolosophy on Apr 5th, 2011 at 11:47pm Equitist wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 11:36pm:
Its not over yet A Russian nuclear expert has stated that the crisis situation in Fukushima is much worse than that in Chernobyl and might lead to a change in the scale for measuring nuclear emergencies. "The crisis in Japan will cost a lot more than Chernobyl in terms of economic and human losses," according to nuclear engineer Nataliya Mironova, who is a leading figure in Russia in the field. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Equitist on Apr 6th, 2011 at 12:01am Well, unfortunately, as I (most recently) foreshadowed a matter of weeks ago: it would take another major nuke incident to stop the madness of nuclear power proliferation. Sadly for Japan, and it's neighbours, they were the one, of many nuke-powered countries in the northern hemisphere, to hit the accident jackpot first! The fact, that the citizens of other pro-nuke nations are 'enjoying' a sobering radiation shower, could be seen as a dose of natural justice - since every single one of those nations could have been the source of a serious nuke accident with international consequences... The only good nuke is one that never existed! |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by thelastnail on Apr 6th, 2011 at 12:38am perceptions_now wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 11:30pm:
gizmo should watch this !! |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Equitist on Apr 6th, 2011 at 1:44pm How can the dumping of 12,000 tons of radioactive water be regarded as a 'minor' environmental contamination!? The amount of radioactive water that is being deliberately dumped into the sea is around 4 olympic-sized swimming pools... How can it be safe to dump this volume of contaminated water into the life-giving marine environment of a densely-populated island-nation which has a diet comprising of much fish and seaweed!? Then there's all the other surrounding nations - which are also densely-populated... |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by it_is_the_light on Apr 6th, 2011 at 1:49pm
how did corporations get to control and enslave humanity?
willfully pollute pay to pollute if any government gets an ets or carbon tax through that means the said government will receive payment from polluters they simply pay to pollute and in as much the government has to provide a toxic waste dump,you see? pay to pollute/carbon tax means new toxic dump for australia this must be discussed and realized as fact or carry on regardless namaste |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 6th, 2011 at 2:32pm Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 10:58pm:
Ahhh there's the Nails we know and love.....making sh1t up again.. I've never read an Andrew Bolt column....if it comes to that, I've haven't read a Herald Sun newspaper in 16 years..(hint nails....I DON'T live in Victoria)..... |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Lisa on Apr 6th, 2011 at 2:38pm Equitist wrote on Apr 6th, 2011 at 1:44pm:
Thank you for stating my sentiments so well. The present situation is totally unacceptable .. I mean WTF are we doing here? We're fracking around by the looks of things. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 6th, 2011 at 2:43pm Lisa Jones wrote on Apr 6th, 2011 at 2:38pm:
If you mean this thread....then Yes absolutely... |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 6th, 2011 at 2:46pm perceptions_now wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 11:02pm:
So, Foolosophy uses made up numbers from a Greenpeace site and invents future outlandish mortality figures and that's fine, (because it's the same opinion as yours) and I correct the Chernobyl figures and venture my own opinion and that's wrong???? WOW, what a weird concept........ |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Foolosophy on Apr 6th, 2011 at 3:04pm
985,000 deaths from Chernobyl
...and counting |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 6th, 2011 at 3:11pm Foolosophy wrote on Apr 6th, 2011 at 3:04pm:
Listed WHERE????? Certainly NOT in the compiled study you keep quoting... |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by thelastnail on Apr 6th, 2011 at 3:15pm gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 6th, 2011 at 2:32pm:
It's online gizmo. You can't miss it ;) |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 6th, 2011 at 3:37pm Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 6th, 2011 at 3:15pm:
Perhaps I 'can't miss it'.......it's just I can't be bothered.....I already know Bolt is a 'one-eyed' bias Liberal supporter....so there's not really any point to reading it is there??? Like it_is_the_light's Alex Jones links.....they're pointless to read.... I much prefer mainstream news.....it's at least 'sort of' balanced.... I don't read many 'opinion' pieces.......as my father used to say.."Opinion are like arseholes.....everyone has one, and they all stink".... |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by nairbe on Apr 6th, 2011 at 8:39pm gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 6th, 2011 at 3:37pm:
I do love that saying, was one of my dad's fav's too. Completely agree on opinion pieces they are generally bias rubbish. If i want opinion we have plenty of politicians to supply. News needs to be even handed. I have held off making any comment on this disaster till now. I have always been anti nuclear as i felt the safety issues were high and the waste product unthinkable, but of late i was feeling that maybe we were getting it together and might be able to handle nuclear power. Seeing what happened in Japan i was forgiving as there was massive natural disasters that triggered it, and as has been pointed out Chernobyl was gross incompetence. But now three weeks later there is no end in sight and the problem grows worse daily. It is clear that the people involved in trying to overcome this problem are way out of their depth and that this will get worse before it gets better. I have also noted much about the failings of the design of these plants and the casual attitude toward the possible disasters that can effect these plants in the design and build phase. Clearly we are not yet able to safely control these monsters and must now shelve any plan to pollut the planet to death with these toxic hangers. What the alternative is i do not know. I wonder how long it will take before they simply fill them full of concrete and walk away? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by perceptions_now on Apr 6th, 2011 at 10:25pm nairbe wrote on Apr 6th, 2011 at 8:39pm:
I'm not sure if the news needs to be even handed, but I would certainly like it to show a fair representation of the facts (all the facts), so that we (the Public) can come to our own conclusions, which then have a greater hope of being based in reality! Unfortunately, most mainstream media have their own bias, so we seldom get "untainted" news. In fact, the mainstream outlets are probably just larger opinion pieces. However, there are ocassions when real news does evade the inbuilt filters, via either mainstream or other providers. It is rare, but it does happen ocassionally. That said, it is more usual that we need to read in between, what is said & what isn't said, to come to conclusions that are somewhere near the truth. We certainly can not rely on Politicians, Political Party's or government/semi government instrumentalities, to provide direct, accurate & timely information, that is in the best, long term interests of all Australians or in the relevant interests of the Public, in other countries! I would certainly, no more trust the likes of the IAEA or other similar organizations or direct government agencies, any more or should I say less, than I trust the myriad of Politicians, either in power or in opposition, either here in OZ or overseas! Cynical? You bet! With good reason? You bet! Would I trust Gizmo's words on these issues? Don't bet on it! |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Foolosophy on Apr 6th, 2011 at 10:31pm
Nuclear power plants are very nuerotic about how pure their plant water circuits are. They even have online demineralisers and various filtration stages.
I wonder what happens when you dump megalitres of "sea water" onto exposed fuel/spent fuel rods and merge it with highly radioactive envrironments? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 6th, 2011 at 10:57pm Foolosophy wrote on Apr 6th, 2011 at 10:31pm:
By the way...it's 'neurotic', not nuerotic.... |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 6th, 2011 at 11:00pm perceptions_now wrote on Apr 6th, 2011 at 10:25pm:
That is what 'even handed' MEANS... |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Equitist on Apr 6th, 2011 at 11:09pm nairbe wrote on Apr 6th, 2011 at 8:39pm:
As I understand it, the unique circumstances in Fukushima are such that this is not a feasible short-term option - and that it may be 6 to 12 months before it is safe to do so... Apparently, unlike Chernobyl, where the initial explosion caused the radioactive fuel to be rapidly consumed (and released skyward), the reactors and fuel storage ponds at Fukushima need to be dramatically-cooled before it would be safe to pour concrete on... Some have suggested that the Chernobyl explosion effectively-stopped (or spent) the reaction process and therefore that it fizzled out and cooled quickly - some have even suggested that the surest (albeit unthinkable) way to stop the problems at Fukushima is to detonate bombs in each of the reactors... It would seem that the high temperatures (and enormous amounts of 'spent fuel') at Fukushima pose problems with the process of setting the concrete material in a sarcophagus - and the associated high risk of cracking and/or causing further explosions (which would send tonnes of radioactive concrete particles high into the atmosphere)... Don't quote me on any of the details - but I think that's the gist of it... |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Andrei.Hicks on Apr 6th, 2011 at 11:17pm
More sensationalism Thy?
Aren't we all supposed to be dead from Avian flu by now according to you? Remember that doomsday scenario you painted when I travelled to London with my daughter? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Equitist on Apr 6th, 2011 at 11:33pm Andrei.Hicks wrote on Apr 6th, 2011 at 11:17pm:
Your daughter was a tiny infant at a time when there was very little known about Swine Flu - except that it was claiming the lives of jetsetters and their loved ones because it was being spread internationally through airports! At the time, I would not have taken an infant of mine on an international trip - and I maintain that such was the only responsible decision. Perhaps you would have been less cavalier with your daughter's life, if your extended family had been touched by the loss of 2 infants to meningitis (in different generations on both sides of the family) and the terrible suffering of another from encephalitis through a common childhood illness (complication of measles)!? [edit]PS As it happens, both of my boys were vaccinated today for seasonal flu (which includes Swine Flu and the newer strains of flu mentioned in the media). They both suffer from Asthma (possibly because we live within cooee of 3 coal-fired power stations) - as do I. I will be having my flu shot next week. [/edit] |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Equitist on Apr 6th, 2011 at 11:40pm BTW, the latest news is that there's an ongoing risk of another hydrogen explosion in Fukushima's reactor No. 1... |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by thelastnail on Apr 6th, 2011 at 11:53pm Andrei.Hicks wrote on Apr 6th, 2011 at 11:17pm:
Are you complete ignorant ? People don't die straight away from radiation exposure. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Foolosophy on Apr 7th, 2011 at 2:24am Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 6th, 2011 at 11:53pm:
In fact exposure to internal alpha emitters have an almost certain link to cancer - but the lag times can vary from 2 to 60 years. No comfort for the people who will die in Japan - and perhaps elsewhere A recent report released by teh NY Academy of Sciences reveals htat The Chernobyl disaster caused 985,000 deaths - and still counting A sign of things to come for the unfortunate Japanese population |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Foolosophy on Apr 7th, 2011 at 2:27am gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 6th, 2011 at 10:57pm:
thanks for that gimzo you're obviously familiar with that word on your many Doctors reports and medication prescriptions how is muso by the way? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 7th, 2011 at 7:55am Foolosophy wrote on Apr 7th, 2011 at 2:27am:
No, unlike you, I'm not required to be under care....and I'm not on any prescription medication. However, I DID learn to spell at school... |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by vegitamite on Apr 7th, 2011 at 1:38pm Dont worry ~ The Liberal parties chief climate scientist, Andrew Bolt, has said radiation is GOOD for you |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by thelastnail on Apr 7th, 2011 at 2:10pm gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 7th, 2011 at 7:55am:
there are some jobs going in japan to help clean up the radioactive swill. It pays really well but the only problem is you end up spending all of the money on hospital bills :) LOL |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by mozzaok on Apr 7th, 2011 at 2:18pm
Booooooooooooooooooopp!
"Beaker" Bolt, lmao, that was a great pic, vegi, I had almost forgotten the Professor and Beaker, from the Muppet Show. Mind you, Bolt may be more accurately portrayed as one of the grumpy old men in the audience box, Statler, and Waldorf. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 7th, 2011 at 2:21pm mozzaok wrote on Apr 7th, 2011 at 2:18pm:
Actually Mozz, I think they'd be more Alan Jones... |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 7th, 2011 at 2:22pm Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 7th, 2011 at 2:10pm:
Well nails, I would go help, if I could... Ok nails, so since you're a 'millionaire businessman'...if YOU buy me the ticket, I'll go to Japan to help with the clean up......I'll even give you my account details....Sound fair??? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by thelastnail on Apr 7th, 2011 at 9:23pm gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 7th, 2011 at 2:22pm:
yes it would be worth it not to read your bullshit anymore ;) |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 8th, 2011 at 7:43am Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 7th, 2011 at 9:23pm:
That's ok, I'll take a laptop with me and a wireless connection... |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Equitist on Apr 8th, 2011 at 12:54pm So, what was the composition of samples taken from the 12,000-odd tons of water deliberately-dumped by TEPCO into the ocean!? Where is the evidence of the purported "low level" of radioactive contamination!? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Foolosophy on Apr 8th, 2011 at 12:57pm Equitist wrote on Apr 8th, 2011 at 12:54pm:
Corporate intellectual property - a secret An illegal criminal secret TEPCO ecpects others to verify its water analysis by testing the fish, algae, sea weed etc There is nowhere to hide on this one - eveything will be traced back to TEPCO |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Equitist on Apr 8th, 2011 at 12:59pm Foolosophy wrote on Apr 8th, 2011 at 12:57pm:
In this case, it is vitally important to oversee whomever is supposed to be watching the watchers! |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Foolosophy on Apr 8th, 2011 at 1:04pm Equitist wrote on Apr 8th, 2011 at 12:59pm:
Those who are watching the watchers are all puppets to the same masters. I can only see one group which has very little resources that is actively trying to paint a true picture of the fukushima disaster. TEPCO should be removed from the management of this disaster goign forward |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by perceptions_now on Apr 8th, 2011 at 6:17pm
For those in need of some background & have some time to spare.
The Battle of Chernobyl part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv3a4LXi_qc&feature=related The Battle of Chernobyl part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Vox1Fw-mio&feature=related The Battle of Chernobyl part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waXwHb7eA5s&feature=related The Battle of Chernobyl part 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i25wVFm7bpE&feature=related The Battle of Chernobyl part 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A_YedAxNtU&feature=related The Battle of Chernobyl part 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wuaQIzxP5A&feature=related The Battle of Chernobyl part 7 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0rhu9VBIM4&feature=related The Battle of Chernobyl part 8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-fQNElblfc&feature=related The Battle of Chernobyl part 9 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0_JZd0sTJU&feature=related The Battle of Chernobyl part 10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwern8d-iPY&feature=related I wonder how many liquidators have now been liquidated? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 8th, 2011 at 6:37pm
The 'Battle' of Chernobyl????
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by perceptions_now on Apr 8th, 2011 at 7:28pm gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 8th, 2011 at 6:37pm:
I take it, you haven't watched it? Is that so you can plead, tactical ignorance? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by pansi1951 on Apr 8th, 2011 at 7:29pm gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 8th, 2011 at 6:37pm:
yeah! and you thought it was a picnic didn't you gizmo? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Andrei.Hicks on Apr 9th, 2011 at 11:01am
I just flew a 2 year old and a 6 month old from San Diego to LAX to London Heathrow Thy. Not to mention a 2 hour car journey to Bristol after that.
All went fine and they loved it. Well no, they didn't love it, but it went fine. Get out there and don't be afraid of that big old world. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by perceptions_now on Apr 9th, 2011 at 11:18am
Analysis: A month on, Japan nuclear crisis still scarring
(Reuters) - One month on, and the crippled Fukushima nuclear plant is still creating lasting scars. Scariest is what cannot be seen in the images of vast destruction from March 11 natural disasters that led to the nuclear crisis -- namely radiation. It could take months or years to learn how damaging the release of dangerous isotopes has been to human health, food supplies, marine life and the surrounding countryside. The inability of Japanese authorities to regain full control of the plant will make villages nearby uninhabitable for a long time, drive people further away and risk damaging relations with neighboring countries. For the global nuclear industry, the accident following the massive earthquake and tsunami will leave lasting sores. Some projects will be abandoned; some existing plants will close; costs will climb. Nuclear experts say Fukushima will go down in history as the second-worst nuclear accident ever. Not as bad as Chernobyl in the Ukraine but definitely much worse than Three Mile Island in the United States. "Fukushima is not the worst nuclear accident ever but it is the most complicated and the most dramatic," said James Acton, Associate of the Nuclear Policy Program at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. "This was a crisis that played out in real time on TV. Chernobyl did not. This crisis just goes on and on." It was not immediately clear how powerless operators were in those first days. But when the details are finally documented, the situation may well be more terrifying than anyone yet realizes. PARTIAL MELTDOWNS & EXPLOSIONS Clearly there were partial meltdowns in the reactors, there were explosions that blew apart major parts of the plant, and it is still not clear whether any of the reactor cores have melted through their protective steel containment vessels. At the same time, at least one pool used to cool spent fuel rods was damaged, water that protects the rods leaked out, and a further huge radioactive danger created. Throughout the past month, every time the authorities took measures to control one part of the plant it seemed to create problems elsewhere. Only time will allow the industry to uncover the many as-yet unanswered questions: How did the structure initially survive the earthquake? How did workers try to address the escalating disaster? And what, if any, upgrades were done at the 1970s era plant in Japan compared to similar U.S. plants? As the small workforce of less than 400 at the giant six-reactor site battle multiple crises, experts say it could take months to bring plant located about 240 kilometers (150 miles) north of Tokyo under control and years to clean up the toxic mess. "It will take months to address the immediate public health risks posed by the reactors and leaks of radioactive materials and years to clean up materials that have leaked and debris from the facilities," Eric Moore, an expert on nuclear safety at FocalPoint Consulting Group in Washington, DC, said. GLOBAL CONSEQUENCES But the consequences go far beyond Japan. China and South Korea have become increasingly alarmed over the risk of radiation from the crippled reactors . The disaster is also raising concerns over safety around the world, particularly in the United States, which has more reactors than any other country, and in Europe where Germany temporarily shut its seven oldest reactors. And the nuclear industry, which before Fukushima was seen as a soldier in the fight again global warming, now has a lot of work to do to regain the public trust. In China, 27 reactors remain under construction and the government still expects to add dozens more over the next couple of decades. The nuclear industry still expects to grow in North America and around the world as a large, carbon free source of energy. High-profile disasters in a U.S. coal mine and in the deep waters of the Gulf of Mexico have underscored the risks facing all forms of energy; at the same time concerns over global warming leave the world few options. But nuclear power is expensive and construction of new reactors in some capitalist nations like the United States had slowed even before Fukushima. "People will look back when they see that there were not many plants built this decade and will blame Fukushima, but the truth is the economics had already changed the situation," said Joseph Romm, a Senior Fellow at the Center for American Progress who oversees the Climate Progress blog. "There is simply no other power source that can go from being a multibillion dollar asset to a multibillion liability in a matter of hours." Link - http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/08/us-nuclear-japan-month-idUSTRE7377I120110408?pageNumber=1 ====================== A few observations - 1) Clearly the Fukushima situation is definitely much worse than Three Mile Island, which makes it at least a 6 on the INES rating system or arguably a 7. 2) This was, to an extent, the Nuclear industries Vietnam War, in so far as it was the first disaster of its type, played out before the world's media. That is it was played out, in Public, from a distance! However, like Chernobyl & three Mile Island before it, much of the really relevant information will remain hidden behind a wall of government misinformation, both in Japan & Globally! |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by perceptions_now on Apr 9th, 2011 at 4:01pm
Lack of Data Heightens Japan’s Nuclear Crisis
TOKYO — Nearly one month after Japan’s devastating nuclear accident, atomic energy experts, regulators and politicians around the world are still puzzling over a basic question: How much danger is still posed by the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant? That depends to a considerable extent on how hot the uranium fuel rods at the power plant remain, and whether fuel has escaped its containment, or might still do so. Yet remarkably little is known for sure about what is really happening inside the reactors because some areas remain far too radioactive for workers to approach, and some instruments have malfunctioned. The paucity of data and the conflicting estimates of what the available information really means have prompted a series of confusing analyses and a rift between officials in Japan and those overseas — and even between one member of Congress and the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission. The commission speculated this week that the nuclear fuel in the core of one of the stricken reactors had probably leaked from its thick steel pressure vessel, its most important protective barrier. If that proved to be accurate, it would raise the prospect of continuing fuel leaks and high levels of radioactive releases that would vastly complicate containment and the cleanup. But Japanese officials said there was no evidence of a compromised pressure vessel, and they wondered why they were reading about it in the newspapers. “If they have a concern, they should inform us,” said Kentaro Morita of Japan’s nuclear regulatory body, the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency, after its American counterpart sounded the alarm over a possible nuclear fuel leak at the plant’s Reactor No. 2, clearly contradicting Japanese accounts. “They didn’t say such concerns to us directly,” Mr. Morita said. From the start there have been differences, with the American authorities expressing a more pessimistic view than the Japanese. The rift also highlights the difficulty of a debate in which both sides are forced to extrapolate possible situations with little access to crucial readings from inside the reactors. Much of the automated measurement equipment in the reactors has been damaged, either by explosions in the early days of the crisis or by intense radiation since then. Damage to the reactors, as well as high radiation, has prevented technicians from making detailed assessments. Even so, it is not easy to explain why such different theories are being offered on fundamental questions like whether radioactive fuel from the steel reactor pressure vessel at Unit No. 2 is leaking into the bottom of the containment structure. The Nuclear Regulatory Commission cited high levels of radiation at one spot inside the containment structure at Reactor No. 2 as evidence for its analysis. In addition, extremely high levels of radiation were detected in the water from a recently stanched leak that ran from the reactor building into a drainage ditch and into the ocean. The Japanese flatly deny that possibility. “At this moment we do not have any data that shows there has been leakage to the containment vessels,” said Hidehiko Nishiyama, deputy director general at the Japanese regulatory agency. In addition, there is evidence that an explosion may have breached the primary containment structure, which may have allowed highly radioactive water into other parts of the plant and into the ocean. This week, Representative Edward J. Markey, Democrat of Massachusetts, an outspoken critic, engaged in a running debate with members of the commission’s staff over the conditions at Reactor No. 2 in Japan. Mr. Markey said the regulators had told his staff that fuel was leaking from the reactor, but then the commission issued a more ambiguous public statement. “I find it rather curious that some within the Nuclear Regulatory Commission are attempting to deny the findings their own technical staff conveyed to my office as soon as it became clear that this information showed a meltdown that is more severe than some people apparently wish to acknowledge,” Mr. Markey said in a statement. On the Japanese side, officials have an obvious desire to avoid causing panic in public statements. The Japanese also seem to prefer presenting raw data without explaining what they think it means, said Takashi Inoue, a professor of public relations at Waseda University. Every day, Tokyo Electric, the nuclear agency, the chief cabinet secretary and others hold news conferences at which they present a blizzard of facts and numbers but rarely make broader declarations about the conditions at Fukushima Daiichi. Masashi Goto, a former Toshiba nuclear power plant designer, said that Japanese officials appeared to have decided that they gained nothing but panic from predicting outcomes. “They will never speak about the worst-case scenario,” he said. “They will never predict.” Link - http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/09/world/asia/09nuclear.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1 ================================= That's a reasonably fair way to put it! A Paucity of information. Paucity, meaning - the presence of something only in small or insufficient quantities or amounts; scarcity scantiness: a country with a paucity of resources This is another situation where real facts are as scarce as hens teeth! |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by muso on Apr 9th, 2011 at 4:12pm
The only reason that it's bigger than Cernobyl is that they allowed Greenpeace in, and they will scare more people to death than the actual effects of any residual radiation.
The current levels in the Fukushima province are about on a par with Denver Colorado, except for a corridor running NW from the plant for about 40km, which is slightly elevated. When the media stated that the levels are 100 times normal, or 100 times background, that's pretty meaningless because natural background radiation varies considerably with time and geographical location. Meantime, we're forgetting about a massive Tsunami that killed about 27,000 people and totally destroyed entire settlements. There needs to be some perspective. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Dnarever on Apr 9th, 2011 at 4:26pm
Nuclear Power the solution which just keeps on taking.
Recently the international community spent a few Billion to build a new containment dome over the chernobyl plant. Years after the incident and it is still costing billions and has produced nothing but death in decades. The appropriatly named fukoshima will be no different - well actually it would do very well to only end up as bad. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Equitist on Apr 9th, 2011 at 4:43pm Andrei.Hicks wrote on Apr 9th, 2011 at 11:01am:
Congrats - but I'd wager that you didn't make the trip without an adult to help you juggle the out-of-comfort-zone toddler and infant... I'm sure you could imagine how much more fun the flight would have been if you'd been solely responsible for the same little souls and all of their necessary paraphernalia - and especially if one of them was feeling even a little off-colour... Then, thinking back on our earlier discussion re welfare recipients reliant upon public transport: imagine if you had travelled to and from the respective airports only by a combination of foot, bus, tram and/or train (no private car, no taxi) - and in wet and cold weather... Oh boy, what joy!? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by perceptions_now on Apr 9th, 2011 at 4:46pm muso wrote on Apr 9th, 2011 at 4:12pm:
Did I miss something, I'll have to re-read that article, I must have missed that bit, about being worse than Chernobyl? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by perceptions_now on Apr 11th, 2011 at 7:24pm
Magnitude 7.1-quake jolts Japan coast
By the CNN Wire Staff April 11, 2011 -- Updated 0858 GMT (CNN) -- A magnitude 7.1 earthquake rattled the northeastern coast of Japan Monday evening, the U.S. Geological Survey reported. Japan's Meteorological Agency issued a tsunami warning, predicting a potential wave of two-meters in Miyagi, Fukushima and Chiba and Ibaraki prefectures. The quake was centered about 164 kilometers (101 miles) northeast of Tokyo, according to the USGS. Residents in Tokyo felt the jolts. Workers at the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant were asked to evacuate. Link - http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/04/11/japan.quake/?hpt=T1 ======================== Have all the bolts been tightened & the brittle metal been replaced? Because, if these keep up, sooner or later, it's going to be one too many! |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Equitist on Apr 11th, 2011 at 10:05pm http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/04/11/3188065.htm Quote:
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Equitist on Apr 12th, 2011 at 10:27am Latest reports are of another fire (in reactor building 4) - and that officials are finally ramping up to admit that Fukushima should be rated at the same level as Chernobyl... |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Equitist on Apr 12th, 2011 at 10:37am https://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=wrapup-4-fire-at-japans-crippled-nu Quote:
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Equitist on Apr 12th, 2011 at 11:08am BTW, how is it that Japan (or any other nation) has been in a position to do its own conservative rating of a nuke disaster in any event!? So bizarre... |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by perceptions_now on Apr 12th, 2011 at 12:08pm
Closing Ranks: The NRC, the Nuclear Industry, and TEPCO are Limiting the Flow of Information
April 6th, 2011 - Embedded Video at below site Arnie Gundersen discusses inconsistencies between what the NRC, TEPCo, and the Nuclear Industry are saying privately and publicly. Documents from the french nuclear firm, Areva, and the NRC reveal what the industry knows about the Fukushima disaster. Nuclear Engineer Arnie Gundersen demonstrates How Fukushima's Fuel Rods Melted and Shattered April 10th, 2011 - Embedded Video at below site Fairewinds' Chief Nuclear Engineer, Arnie Gundersen, conducts a field demonstration simulating the impact of Fukushima's intense heat upon Zircaloy [zirconium alloy] fuel rods. Gundersen's demonstration shows that intense heat weakens and embrittles Zircaloy changing it from a sturdy metal to a brittle oxide that is easily shattered. Images from the post accident Three Mile Island nuclear core show embrittled and broken Zircaloy fuel rods in the nuclear reactor. Link - http://www.fairewinds.com/updates ================================ Further to Reply #296 - Apr 5th, 2011, 12:45pm, there are now 2 more video reports from Arnie Gundersen at Fairwinds & Associates. The April 6th video refers to a number of inconsistencies involved in reports coming from TEPCO & others, which In my opinion has been apparent! Arnie also talks about - 1) The Reliability of information being questionable. 2) The possibility of Recriticality ocurring. 3) The possibility of further Hydrogen explosions. 4) A report from the French Nuclear company Areva containing issues that the Public are not being made aware of, including - a) That the Nuclear Fuel in reactors 1,2 & 3 reached 5000f, which is beyond the melting point of Zircalloy & Stainless Steel. b) Reactor 2 RPV being breeched by a Hydrogen explosion. c) Areva recommend control of crops & dairy products, out to 50 km, due to radiation levels. d) Plutonium & other material is coming from reactor 4, due to a crack in the fuel pool resulting from the earthquake, which caused a "core melt in fresh air". |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by perceptions_now on Apr 12th, 2011 at 12:09pm
Japan may raise nuke accident severity level to highest 7 from 5
The Nuclear Safety Commission of Japan released a preliminary calculation Monday saying that the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant had been releasing up to 10,000 terabecquerels of radioactive materials per hour at some point after a massive quake and tsunami hit northeastern Japan on March 11. The disclosure prompted the government to consider raising the accident's severity level to 7, the worst on an international scale, from the current 5, government sources said. The level 7 on the International Nuclear Event Scale has only been applied to the 1986 Chernobyl catastrophe. According to an evaluation by the INES, level 7 accidents correspond with a release into the external environment radioactive materials equal to more than tens of thousands terabecquerels of radioactive iodine 131. One terabecquerel equals 1 trillion becquerels. Haruki Madarame, chairman of the commission, which is a government panel, said it has estimated that the release of 10,000 terabecquerels of radioactive materials per hour continued for several hours. The commission says the release has since come down to under 1 terabecquerel per hour and said that it is still examining the total amount of radioactive materials released. The commission also released a preliminary calculation for the cumulative amount of external exposure to radiation, saying it exceeded the yearly limit of 1 millisieverts in areas extending more than 60 kilometers to the northwest of the plant and about 40 km to the south-southwest of the plant. Within a 20-km exclusion zone set by the government, the amount varied from under 1 millisieverts to 100 millisieverts or more, and in the 20-30 km radius ring where residents are asked to stay indoors, it came to under 50 millisieverts. Link - http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/84721.html ========================================== I am reminded of a recent post, which addreses the approach of Politicians & no doubt other self-interest groups, such as those involved in this issue. Does anyone believe that - 1) All Politicians, tell the truth, all the time? 2) All Politicians, have our interests at heart, not theirs? 3) Government Statistics, don't lie? 4) War is the only thing, where we are treated like mushrooms? If there is anyone, let me introduce you to Alice and the looking glass, where things just aren't what they seem and much of the time that is self induced! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7dxhbHAGRE |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by perceptions_now on Apr 12th, 2011 at 12:10pm
WRAPUP 4-Fire at Japan's crippled nuclear plant, more aftershocks
TOKYO, April 12 (Reuters) - Engineers were fighting a fire at Japan's crippled nuclear plant on Tuesday as another major aftershock rocked eastern Japan, swaying buildings in central Tokyo and closing Narita airport runways. Japan is considering raising the severity level of its nuclear crisis to put it on a par with the Chernobyl accident 25 years ago, the worst atomic power disaster in history, Kyodo news agency reported on Tuesday. Operator of the crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, 240 km (150 miles) north of Tokyo, said on Tuesday that its workers were fighting a fire near damaged reactor No. 4. It was unclear how serious the fire was. An aftershock measuring 6.6 quake hit Fukushima prefecture on Monday evening temporarily cutting power and forcing workers to evacuate the nuclear plant. Nearly 28,000 Japanese are dead or missing and the world's third-largest economy is reeling with power blackouts, factory c closures and cuts to supply lines. The Kyodo reported on Tuesday that the high levels of radiation that have been released by the Fukushima Daiichi plant meant it could raise the severity level from 5 to the highest 7, the same as the 1986 Chernobyl accident. "It has been obvious all along this was a 7. There are three reactors that are not being cooled (No. 1, 2 &3) and four fuel pools too (No. 1, 2, 3, and especially 4)," said Arnie Gundersen, a 29-year veteran of the nuclear industry who worked on reactors similar to those at Daiichi and who is now chief engineer at Fairewinds Associates Inc of Burlington, Vermont. He said that means there were at least seven cores or pools that had been in difficulty. He noted that at Chernobyl it was only one reactor that created the problem. A spokesman for the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency, Japan's nuclear safety watchdog, said he was unaware of any move by the government to raise the level. EVACUATION ZONE WIDENS Because of accumulated radiation contamination, the government is encouraging people to leave certain areas beyond its 20 km (12 mile) exclusion zone around the plant. Thousands of people could be affected by the move. Link - http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/12/japan-idUSL3E7FB2TZ20110412?pageNumber=3 ====================================== At this point, even iF the TEPCO or government spokesperson was named FRANK CARE, I would have great difficulty in believing that he would be FRANK & Honest, in passing on all of the corect information! |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by gizmo_2655 on Apr 12th, 2011 at 12:31pm
"Earlier on Tuesday the nuclear power plant operator said workers discovered a small fire near a reactor building at the Fukushima Dai-ichi complex but it was extinguished quickly.
Tokyo Electric Power Company said the fire at a box that contains batteries in a building near the No. 4 reactor was discovered at about 6:38 am on Tuesday morning and was put out seven minutes later. It wasn't clear whether the fire was related to a magnitude-6.3 earthquake that shook the Tokyo area on Tuesday morning. The cause of the fire is being investigated." http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/world/9179730/japan-to-raise-nuclear-severity-level/ |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Foolosophy on Apr 12th, 2011 at 12:50pm
Arnold Gundersen (Fairewinds) is an excellent source for how nuclear power plants work and the dangers of meltdown
Prof. Chris Busby is an excellent source for determining THE REAL dangers and long term health risks of the various types of radiation and radionucleotides that can be released from a nuclear power plant disaster. Of course you can just rely on TEPCO lies and the back pedallng of the IAEA. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by pansi1951 on Apr 12th, 2011 at 1:19pm
<<Of course you can just rely on TEPCO lies and the back pedallng of the IAEA.>>
................................................................................. Of course we should listen carefully to what they are saying, then believe the exact opposite to get nearer to the truth. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by perceptions_now on Apr 12th, 2011 at 1:25pm perceptions_now wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 12:10pm:
Japan Raises Nuclear Accident to Chernobyl Level on Radiation April 12 (Bloomberg) -- Japan raised the severity rating of its nuclear crisis to the highest, matching the 1986 Chernobyl disaster, as increasing radiation prompts the government to widen the evacuation zone and aftershocks rocked the country. Japan’s Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency raised the rating to 7, a spokesman said at a news conference in Tokyo today. The government “is at last beginning to wake up to the reality of the scale of the disaster,” said Philip White, International Liaison Officer at the Citizens’ Nuclear Information Center, a Tokyo-based group opposed to atomic energy. “Its belated move to evacuate people from a larger area around the nuclear plant, likewise, is a recognition that the impact on public health is potentially much greater than it first acknowledged.” Contaminated Water Tepco is using emergency equipment to cool reactors damaged at the atomic station after backup generators were knocked out by the tsunami. The utility is trying to remove highly contaminated water that’s holding up efforts to get the cooling pumps working and prevent further explosions after blasts damaged reactor containment vessels, releasing radiation into the air and sea and tainting food. Yesterday’s earthquake halted the pumping of contaminated water from the No. 2 reactor, Tepco said. About 60,000 metric tons of contaminated water lies in the basements of turbine buildings and trenches around the No. 1, 2 and 3 reactors, the company said last week. “If it doesn’t find a long term solution to the large quantities of highly radioactive water flowing out of the reactors, the scale of the disaster could end up exceeding Chernobyl,” White, from the Citizens’ Nuclear Information Center, said by telephone today. Link - http://noir.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=at4GqCg0PphI ====================== A few observations - 1) It is intresting that the spokesman for Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency, in the first article, didn't know that an upgrade to INES 7 was being considered, then a couple of hours later, it was upgraded. Timing perhaps, OR? 2) After steadfastly refusing, for a whole month, that this was/is a really large problem, why move on the INES 7 admission NOW? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Foolosophy on Apr 12th, 2011 at 2:43pm Equitist wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 11:08am:
This is a good point and desrcibes the rediculous international standards that exist (or dont exist) concerning nuclear power plants (waste dumps and weapons) In fact the French leader Sarkozy was calling for international standards and regulation of nuclear power facilities after the Fukushima disaster. Bit late dont you think? Even the IAEA is really just a body that promotes nuclear power - notice how they are in hiding at the moment saying well we really cant do much. LOL My main fear from Nuclear power are the reacotrs in Pakistan and India (trerrorist targets waiting for an opening) now long did the Japanese hold on to a rating 4? Even after the explosions? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by pansi1951 on Apr 12th, 2011 at 3:39pm
<<2) After steadfastly refusing, for a whole month, that this was/is a really large problem, why move on the INES 7 admission NOW? >>
..................................................................... Because they know they are in deep shite and had to start coming clean (no pun intended) sometime. |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Jasignature on Apr 12th, 2011 at 3:48pm
There will be something said about the Nipponese (Japanese for the archaic Western imperialists) Nuclear Disaster being worse than Chernobyl tonight.
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Equitist on Apr 12th, 2011 at 4:17pm It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Apr 12th, 2011 at 3:48pm:
Huh!? |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by perceptions_now on Apr 12th, 2011 at 9:53pm
Areva Report slide show -
https://docs.google.com/present/view?id=dg4hcz37_289dr9g62f6 |
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Jasignature on Apr 12th, 2011 at 10:01pm
oops, I mean't upon the News-TV :-[
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by Equitist on Apr 17th, 2011 at 3:24pm 5 weeks and counting - and nowhere near under control... http://blogs.forbes.com/oshadavidson/2011/04/16/conditions-may-be-deteriorating-at-japanese-nuclear-power-plant/ Quote:
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Title: Re: Japan Nuclear Disaster-Bigger Than Chernobyl. Post by pansi1951 on Apr 17th, 2011 at 4:44pm
It's extremely worrying equi. Remember the US said the damage was minimal with the BP oil leak, and after a couple of months the oil had dissipated into the sea bed or some such bull story. Now we find out that the effects are on going and much worse than they admitted.
I have a feeling this will be the same.....only worse, if there can be a worse. |
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