Christmas in Bethlehem off limits for Gaza's Christians
Eva Bartlett, The Electronic Intifada, 7 January 2011

GAZA CITY, occupied Gaza Strip (IPS) - "We try to be happy and celebrate with our families during Christmas, but the atmosphere is not cheery as in other parts of the world," says Hossam Tawwil. And as around Christmas on 25 December, so for Orthodox Christians preparing to celebrate Christmas on 7 January.

"We are from Palestine and our lives aren't easy: we are under occupation, under siege, and we're prevented from visiting our holy city, Bethlehem," says Tawwil, Member of Parliament in Gaza. "We don't truly feel like we are celebrating holy days, not in the way we'd like to."

Bendali Tarazi is a Christian living in Gaza City. "We celebrate Christmas as we can. On Christmas morning, my family and I pray at the church, and after the service we visit our relatives then go home for a Christmas meal together."

Like most Palestinians in Gaza, Tarazi suffers from Gaza's imprisonment under siege and the constant threat and reality of Israeli attacks.

"Everything is difficult here, for all Palestinians, not just Christians. We are in a huge prison together, and not just locked in but under complete siege, where virtually nothing and no one gets in or out through the borders. And there are constantly new Israeli bombings and demolitions."

Israeli authorities and various news outlets announced exit permits for 500 Gazan Christians to Bethlehem this Christmas. But Tawwil says this news is not as it seems.

"Of the 500, there are Orthodox Christians and Catholic Christians. The Catholics celebrate on 25 December, and the Orthodox celebrate on 7 January. Those who celebrate in January were given permits to go to Bethlehem before their holy day. Those Christians who would like to have gone for the 25th didn't get a permit."

Bethlehem and Jerusalem are two of Palestine's holiest sites, and for both Christians and Muslims, they are infinitely out of reach.

"The Israeli occupation authorities prevent Christians in Gaza and the occupied West Bank from going to Bethlehem at Christmas just as they prevent Muslims from going to al-Quds [Jerusalem] during Ramadan," Tawwil says.

Attaining a permit is no easy matter. "You must be older than 35 years, which immediately eliminates the majority of Gazans," explains Tawwil. "And, the Israeli occupation forces arbitrarily decide who may exit or not, regardless of age or even holding a permit. They never have to explain the reason why."

According to Tawwil, although 500 Palestinians from Gaza may have been granted exit permits, in reality not all 500 will be able to leave, or want to, depending on when they celebrate Christ's birth.

Bendali Tarazi has experience with this. "Last year I got a permit to travel to Bethlehem, but when we learned that my wife didn't get one, I couldn't leave without her, as much as I wanted to see Bethlehem at Christmas. It's our holy city, our land, but we aren't allowed to go to it at the most important time of the year."

This is common, says Hossam Tawwil. "Sometimes parents will get the permit but their children will not, so no one goes. Or only one of a couple will get the permit, so neither goes."

Families suffer from other siege and war-related consequences.

"Virtually every family has lost someone from their family. Maybe they have a child imprisoned in an Israeli jail, or who was martyred in Israeli attacks, or was ill and died because he couldn't get treatment under the siege," Tawwil says. "During holidays families remember their lost loved ones all the more. Any holiday, without loves ones, isn't a good holiday."

With Israeli attacks newly escalating, the threat of a new war on Gaza clouds the holiday merriment. "Many feel there is a new Israeli war coming to Gaza soon. There are already random bombings," Tawwil says.

The siege and war-orchestrated financial disaster of Gaza's economy means that families lack the money and means to celebrate as Christians worldwide might.

"No work, no money, we can't buy the gifts and special foods that make the holiday magical," says Tawwil.

Tawwil disputes reports of Muslim-Christian animosity. "Muslims have the same problems as Christians do in Gaza. We live together, as neighbors, under the same siege, occupation and same Israeli attacks."

Ahmed Mahdi, a Muslim in Gaza City, has Christian neighbors. "We are good friends with our neighbors, and visit them during their Christian holidays," Mahdi says. "And they visit us during our Muslim holidays. We feel and act like family."

Like Mahdi, Tawwil and other Christians share Muslim holy times.

"We are with them for Muslim holidays, we celebrate with them as if its our holiday. We don't feel a difference between Muslims and Christians in Gaza."

"The occupation does not allow for freedom for any religion other than Judaism. Aside from banning us from our holy places, the Israelis have attacked and destroyed our churches and mosques," notes Hossam Tawwil.

Ahmed Mahdi's message is simple. "I just wish that this year is better for Palestine's Christians, and that Christians everywhere celebrate and enjoy their holy day."

Source: Electronic Intifada

Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven.

Abu do you know why the muslims are pissed off with the coptics? Apparently there were serious threats to bomb coptic churches yesterday (christmas day for them). It included 4 in sydney.

Quote:

Abu do you know why the muslims are pissed off with the coptics?

Yes.

They kidnapped and are holding hostage two women who converted to Islam.

What complete and utter garbage !!

What are you talking about?

The Moslem [mod: speak nice, or scat] in Egypt over the last year, have reduced the total of Copts in the country to a third of what it was.


Then we have your lies in regards to Bethlehem

IT seems one of the victims of the rise of Islamic fundamentalism seems to be the Christians of Bethlehem, the birthplace of Jesus. The Christian population has been in massive decline for years and lest you wish to place the blame on the Jews, allow me to present this recent story wherein Samir Qumsieh, director of the Catholic television station Al-Mahed Nativity TV in Bethlehem is interviewed about the state of Christendom in the Palestinian territories.

   This Christmas in Bethlehem, the cross has been banned from souvenirs for tourists and pilgrims in the Holy Land. Some textile workshops in Jerusalem and Hebron have begun to print and sell T-shirts depicting the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem without the cross. Because of the growth of Islamic fundamentalism in the Palestinian territories, the cross was also removed from t-shirts of football teams. Interviewed by AsiaNews, Samir Qumsieh, journalist and director of the Catholic television station Al-Mahed Nativity TV in Bethlehem, said: “I want to launch a campaign to urge people not to buy these products – he says – because the removal of the cross is an intimidation against Christians, it is like saying that Jesus was never crucified. “

The article continues:

   Qumsieh points out that from 2002 to 2010 the Christian population of Bethlehem has dropped from over 18 thousand to 11 thousand people. In Gaza, after Hamas came to power in 2006, Christians have fallen by about 3,200 units, from 5 thousand to less than 1800 in 2010. Only 15,400 Christians (2% of the population) live in Jerusalem, as reported in a study by the Jerusalem Institute for Israel Studies. They are 50% less than the 31 thousand registered residents in 1948, when Christians accounted for 20% of the population of the city… The reporter says that if this exodus continues there will be no more Catholics in the Holy Land and that one day the Church of the Nativity could be turned into a museum. “If there are no more Christians in the Holy Land – he says – then there will no longer be Christians anywhere.”



abu_rashid wrote on Jan 8^th, 2011 at 8:09pm:

Quote: Abu do you know why the muslims are pissed off with the coptics? Yes. They kidnapped and are holding hostage two women who converted to Islam.

Here is the article mentioned.

http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Christmas-in-Bethlehem:-the-cross-banished-from-souvenirs-20318.html

12/22/2010 09:29
PALESTINE - ISRAEL
Christmas in Bethlehem: the cross banished from souvenirs
For fear of Islamic fundamentalism, textile workshops in Hebron and Jerusalem, produce and sell T-shirts and other items depicting the Church of the Nativity without the cross. Discrimination and economic crisis are forcing Christians to flee from the Palestinian territories and Israel. The risk is to see a future without Christians in the Holy Land. Interview with Samir Qumsieh, director of the Catholic television station Al-Mahed Nativity TV in Bethlehem.

Bethlehem (AsiaNews) - This Christmas in Bethlehem, the cross has been banned from souvenirs for tourists and pilgrims in the Holy Land. Some textile workshops in Jerusalem and Hebron have begun to print and sell T-shirts depicting the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem without the cross. Because of the growth of Islamic fundamentalism in the Palestinian territories, the cross was also removed from t-shirts of football teams. Interviewed by AsiaNews, Samir Qumsieh, journalist and director of the Catholic television station Al-Mahed Nativity TV in Bethlehem, said: "I want to launch a campaign to urge people not to buy these products - he says - because the removal of the cross is an intimidation against Christians, it is like saying that Jesus was never crucified. "

Like every year, thousands including authorities, faithful and tourists from all over the world crowd, the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem for midnight mass on the night of 24 December. It will be celebrated by the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem and will be attended by the highest offices of the Palestinian Authority.

Qumsieh says that the population is living these days with joy, but the situation for Christians is still dramatic. According to the journalist, the dialogue of recent years between Muslims, Christians and Jews has not changed the situation.

"In the Holy Land - said Qumsieh - the emigration of Christians is growing, even if the authorities refuse to give precise numbers. Every day there are people who flee to other countries. As Christians, we live in a constant feeling of fear and uncertainty, and if you live in constant tension and pessimism you can not plan anything.

According to the journalist, "people leave because there is no work and movement is restricted under Israeli control." Other factors are the internal problems of Palestine, such as the clash between Hamas and Fatah, which has repercussions on the economic situation. Qumsieh points out that from 2002 to 2010 the Christian population of Bethlehem has dropped from over 18 thousand to 11 thousand people. In Gaza, after Hamas came to power in 2006, Christians have fallen by about 3,200 units, from 5 thousand to less than 1800 in 2010. Only 15,400 Christians (2% of the population) live in Jerusalem, as reported in a study by the Jerusalem Institute for Israel Studies. They are 50% less than the 31 thousand registered residents in 1948, when Christians accounted for 20% of the population of the city.

The reporter says that if this exodus continues there will be no more Catholics in the Holy Land and that one day the Church of the Nativity could be turned into a museum. "If there are no more Christians in the Holy Land - he says – then there will no longer be Christians anywhere."

Meanwhile, on the occasion of the celebrations for Christmas, the Israeli military has ordered troops deployed in the occupied Palestinian territories to facilitate the passage of Christian pilgrims at checkpoints. The military has also distributed a brochure explaining the importance of Christmas for Christians and is urging soldiers to avoid unnecessary discussions and obstacles at the borders with the West Bank.

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 8^th, 2011 at 8:09pm:

Quote: Abu do you know why the muslims are pissed off with the coptics? Yes. They kidnapped and are holding hostage two women who converted to Islam.

Do you see it as a reasonable response?

GH,


Quote:

The Moslem [mod: speak nice, or scat] in Egypt over the last year, have reduced the total of Copts in the country to a third of what it was.

You are on drugs right?

You're trying to say that prior to 1 year ago, Christians in Egypt were not ~10%, but were ~30%??? LOL Do you have some kind of evidence or statistics to back this up?

Perhaps you left off some 0's, and actually meant over the last 1000 years Copts have reduced to 10%?


Quote:

IT seems one of the victims of the rise of Islamic fundamentalism seems to be the Christians of Bethlehem, the birthplace of Jesus.

Bethlehem, and all of Palestine were ruled by Islamic shari'ah for over 1200 years, yet Christians thrived there.

Since 1948 (wonder what happened in that year???) Christian numbers in the holy land have decreased dramatically.... yet supposedly Islam is to blame? What a crock.

As Hussam Tawwil (ie. a Palestinian Christian himself) mentions above:

"Virtually every family has lost someone from their family. Maybe they have a child imprisoned in an Israeli jail, or who was martyred in Israeli attacks, or was ill and died because he couldn't get treatment under the siege,"

"Muslims have the same problems as Christians do in Gaza. We live together, as neighbors, under the same siege, occupation and same Israeli attacks."

"We are with them for Muslim holidays, we celebrate with them as if its our holiday. We don't feel a difference between Muslims and Christians in Gaza."

"The occupation does not allow for freedom for any religion other than Judaism. Aside from banning us from our holy places, the Israelis have attacked and destroyed our churches and mosques,"

Seems you're not interested in what Palestinian Christians are going through, only in what Zionist propaganda tells you to believe.

Quote:

Do you see it as a reasonable response?

Honestly I am insulted fd. You continually question me as if I support such horrific acts, when I have never done so, in fact it's only you guys here who have supported this kind of thing.

Murdering civilians blindly is plain wrong, and you are the ones who need to learn this, because the West are the ones who day in day out are murdering civilians. Then you try and find one little isolated desperate incident like this, and claim that Islam promotes attacking civilians.

You come here harping on about this case of ~20 civilians being killed, yet whilst you wrote your post out, another 20 or more Muslim civilians have been murdered by your own armies and leaders.

On the same token, if they're going to take Muslim women hostage then they have to be prepared to face the consequences. It is their own authorities who've done this, not some loner extremist group. The Copts should be rallying their leaders to release these poor women.

And that's the real crux of this isn't it? Western/Christian _authorities_ and armies and other official arms carry out unspeakable acts against poor defenceless Muslims, and lazy thinkers like yourself don't even bat an eyelid, yet if some fringe Muslim movement _replies_ in kind, you're all over it like it's the only news that exists.

You are intellectually bankrupt fd, and that's why you raise such poor and pathetically lop-sided issues.

Quote:

Murdering civilians blindly is plain wrong, and you are the ones who need to learn this, because the West are the ones who day in day out are murdering civilians.

I am not doing this any more than you are.


Quote:

Honestly I am insulted fd. You continually question me as if I support such horrific acts....

Quote:

....On the same token, if they're going to take Muslim women hostage then they have to be prepared to face the consequences. It is their own authorities who've done this, not some loner extremist group. The Copts should be rallying their leaders to release these poor women.

Abu could you give us a bit more detail about these kidnappings? If it wasn't for the involvement of Muslims, I don't think anyone would consider 'being prepared to face the consequences' to include churches getting bombed. Do the four churches in Sydney have anything to do with it?

Quote:

I am not doing this any more than you are.

So you don't "support our troops"? You don't support the West's incursion into Afghanistan?


Quote:

Abu could you give us a bit more detail about these kidnappings?

Although there's been a lot of cases, there were two very high profile ones, as the women were former wives of priests in the Coptic church. Their names were Wafaa Constantine and Camilia Shehata (you can read about them here). They were kidnapped by the government's security forces under pressure from massive demonstrations and riots by Copts. They were then handed over to the Coptic church and have since disappeared, apparently being held captive in monastries and tortured, reportedly to death.


Quote:

If it wasn't for the involvement of Muslims, I don't think anyone would consider 'being prepared to face the consequences' to include churches getting bombed.

I can't quite decipher what this is supposed to mean. Can you possibly unwrap all your anti-Islamic hints and innuendo from it and put it in plainer English.


Quote:

Do the four churches in Sydney have anything to do with it?

Not quite sure what four churches you mean (got a link?), if they're Coptic, then I guess the link would be that they are part of the organisation whose leadership (note, not some rogue individuals, the actual leadership) are holding these women captive.

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 12^th, 2011 at 10:19am:

. Quote: Abu could you give us a bit more detail about these kidnappings? Although there's been a lot of cases, there were two very high profile ones, as the women were former wives of priests in the Coptic church. Their names were Wafaa Constantine and Camilia Shehata (you can read about them here). They were kidnapped by the government's security forces under pressure from massive demonstrations and riots by Copts. They were then handed over to the Coptic church and have since disappeared, apparently being held captive in monastries and tortured, reportedly to death.

Yes there are many, many, other cases within moslem majority countries, of the attempted 'criminal' kidnapping of women and girls - by their Christian parents/ families.
/sarc off




e.g.
In Pakistan; TWO CHRISTIAN GIRLS, 13- AND 10-YEAR-OLD GIRLS, chose to convert to ISLAM [oh yeah! the other one plays Jingle Bells.].

And these young Christian girls are given shelter by moslems - OF COURSE!

And their 'wicked' Christian parents tried to 'kidnap' these young, 13- AND 10-YEAR-OLD GIRLS, from their moslem 'protectors'.

Sure, sure Abu!

Pull the other one, it plays Jingle Bells.


e.g.

Quote:

. July 12, 2008 Pakistan: Christian girls kidnapped; captors file for custody, claiming girls converted to Islam And the police weren't about to be of any help without outside pressure: The girls' father "was told to 'remain silent,' as the officers said the girls had embraced Islam in a written statement." "Pakistan: Girls kidnapped, allegedly forced to convert," http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/021731.php July 14, 2008 Pakistan: 13- and 10-year-old girls abducted, raped, and forced into the fold of Islam More Christian girls being forced to convert to the religion of peace. As this report notes, the Muslim majority, including the police, are either actively or passively aiding the abductors, a common phenomenon in Muslim majority countries, such as Egypt, where Coptic girls are regularly abducted. http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/021760.php update.... July 20, 2008 Pakistan: Court grants custody of Christian girls to Muslim kidnappers Because they converted to Islam, you see. More on this story. "Pakistan: Court Grants Custody of Girls to Kidnappers," from Compass Direct News, July 18:  ISTANBUL, July 18 (Compass Direct News) A Pakistani couple has appealed a court decision to award custody of their two daughters, 10 and 13, to the children’s alleged kidnappers. The court based its custody decision on the girls’ conversion to Islam. http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/021866.php January 14, 2009 Pakistan: Christian girls drugged, coverted to Islam, sold as sex slaves Muslim men are permitted to have sex with the "captives their right hands possess" (Qur'an 4:24). "Christian Girls Drugged and Sold As Sex Slaves in Pakistan," from AINA, January 13: http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/024393.php

here on Oz Pol...
" 'Aussie Fritzl' emerges"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1253145391/2#2





What are you ppl going to believe ???      :D

That;

1/ That two 10 & 13 year old Christian girls, freely choose to convert to ISLAM, and were subsequently given sanctuary by moslem men?

OR,

2/ That two 10 & 13 year old Christian girls, living within moslem majority country, were kidnapped BY MOSLEM MEN, and their families were told that these young girls chose to convert to ISLAM, and THEREFORE, they cannot, and would not be returned to their Christian parents ?



Well if you are Abu, OF COURSE, you will believe #1.



Now Abu, what was that which you were trying to convince us of ???

Something about the former wives of priests in the Coptic church, abandoning their families, for ISLAM ???
/sarc off

Quote:

What are you ppl going to believe ???      Cheesy That; 1/ That two 10 & 13 year old Christian girls, freely choose to convert to ISLAM, and were subsequently given sanctuary by moslem men?

You must really know you have absolutely no chance of even participating in this discussion, that's why you completely ignored the actual case being discussed (ie. that of two middle aged women who chose to convert to Islam in Egypt) and instead attempted to present an alternative case (completely unrelated to this one) of two young teenage girls in Pakistan and then give us an ultimatum to choose from  ;D

You're a truly sad individual Yadda.

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 12^th, 2011 at 1:57pm:

Quote: What are you ppl going to believe ???      Cheesy That; 1/ That two 10 & 13 year old Christian girls, freely choose to convert to ISLAM, and were subsequently given sanctuary by moslem men? You must really know you have absolutely no chance of even participating in this discussion, that's why you completely ignored the actual case being discussed (ie. that of two middle aged women who chose to convert to Islam in Egypt) and instead attempted to present an alternative case (completely unrelated to this one) of two young teenage girls in Pakistan and then give us an ultimatum to choose from  ;D You're a truly sad individual Yadda.

What i am saying Abu, to everyone who frequents this forum, is that any account given by a moslem, or from a moslem perspective, FROM EXPERIENCE, such accounts are most likely not credible.

And if a moslem, for example, assured me that that bright thing in the sky was the sun, I WOULD SEEK A SECOND OPINION.

That, is the measure of the veracity i give to any account, which is related to me, by a moslem, any moslem.



Dictionary;
veracity = = conformity to facts; accuracy. Ø habitual truthfulness.

Quote:

So you don't "support our troops"? You don't support the West's incursion into Afghanistan?

I supported Afghanistan, but not Iraq.


Quote:

I can't quite decipher what this is supposed to mean. Can you possibly unwrap all your anti-Islamic hints and innuendo from it and put it in plainer English.

You seem to think that churches getting bombed is a consequence the coptic church should have expected. If it wasn't Muslims doing the bombing, it would seem kind of absurd.


Quote:

Not quite sure what four churches you mean (got a link?)

I thought this had already been posted here:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/01/australia-jihadist-threats-against-four-coptic-churches-in-sydney.html

Quote:

I supported Afghanistan, but not Iraq.

Well there we go, you support far far worse than this little event in Egypt.


Quote:

You seem to think that churches getting bombed is a consequence the coptic church should have expected.

No... I think it's an ultimatum that was given.


Quote:

I thought this had already been posted here: http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/01/australia-jihadist-threats-against-four-coptic-churches-in-sydney.html

Didn't notice it... Jihadwatch? Pinch of salt..

All I can see is that it was apparently on a list of Coptic churches... hardly a threat. Then again, in the current climate, with the lack of actual due process required to find Muslims guilty and get them in front of firing squads... I can see how this could be construed as a 'threat'. You lower yourself by referring to it though.

Quote:

Didn't notice it... Jihadwatch? Pinch of salt.. All I can see is that it was apparently on a list of Coptic churches... hardly a threat. Then again, in the current climate, with the lack of actual due process required to find Muslims guilty and get them in front of firing squads... I can see how this could be construed as a 'threat'. You lower yourself by referring to it though.

It was in the mainstream media Abu, and the AFP took it seriously enough.

What sort of 'due process' do you need for taking a threat seriously?

You need to have a look at the Muslim message you are a liar

quote author=abu_rashid link=1294470921/0#8 date=1294753050]
Quote:

Do you see it as a reasonable response?

Honestly I am insulted fd. You continually question me as if I support such horrific acts, when I have never done so, in fact it's only you guys here who have supported this kind of thing.

Murdering civilians blindly is plain wrong, and you are the ones who need to learn this, because the West are the ones who day in day out are murdering civilians. Then you try and find one little isolated desperate incident like this, and claim that Islam promotes attacking civilians.

You come here harping on about this case of ~20 civilians being killed, yet whilst you wrote your post out, another 20 or more Muslim civilians have been murdered by your own armies and leaders.

On the same token, if they're going to take Muslim women hostage then they have to be prepared to face the consequences. It is their own authorities who've done this, not some loner extremist group. The Copts should be rallying their leaders to release these poor women.

And that's the real crux of this isn't it? Western/Christian _authorities_ and armies and other official arms carry out unspeakable acts against poor defenceless Muslims, and lazy thinkers like yourself don't even bat an eyelid, yet if some fringe Muslim movement _replies_ in kind, you're all over it like it's the only news that exists.

You are intellectually bankrupt fd, and that's why you raise such poor and pathetically lop-sided issues.[/quote]

A typo.

:You need to have a look at the Muslim message you are a liar:

and seeing as you take delight in showing any little mistake , as if it were a major distaster...I will correcy it for you

:You need to have a look at the Muslim message forums-you are a liar:

That folks is what translates to KILLTHEM in the eyes of Islam


abu_rashid wrote on Jan 8^th, 2011 at 8:09pm:

Quote: Abu do you know why the muslims are pissed off with the coptics? Yes. They kidnapped and are holding hostage two women who converted to Islam.

[/quote]

Abu  Rashid you need to remember that this is Australia and we DO have laws in place to curtail people like you.

I have a good friend who is an Egyptian Copt. He because of his work against Islam, he is now on a death threat list issued by Muslims and is guarded by Australian Law Enforcement

Once again we see the evil of Islam

Remember the Ban the Burka mural, which is ongoing?

That came about too because  of death threats from the quiet, observant servants of Allah

The artist’s friend, who is a fashion designer , had a fashion show planned, in which the models would wear burkas, once on the runway, they would take them off to reveal his clothes underneath.

He received death threats and threats to fire bomb his home and business. These faithful followers of their god, got what they called for with those threats . So the burka idea was abandoned. That’s why he did the burka mural, because everyone is getting sick to death from the threats of these  morons and it’s not before time this issue was brought to light..which it is doing and soon will be plastered on the media again, along with the liar Carnita Mathews.

Hopefully the next magistrate will give her an increased sentence, as the law for giving a false statement on a stat. dec. should be 4 years. He labelled her a malicious and ruthless liar

A very funny side to this story is that Carnita  is

“a Mexican dish of browned shredded tenderised pork, served with salsa and sometimes is the filling for burritos, tacos, or tamales”

How’s that for perfection ?

One last thing, as I have no words to describe Islam and allit stands for.

The last quarter of the twentieth century and the first decade of the twenty first have seen a deterioration in relations between Muslims and the Coptic minority in Egypt. This is seen in day-to-day interactions such as the insulting of Coptic priests by Muslim children, but also in much more serious events such as attacks on Coptic churches, monasteries, villages, homes and shops, particularly in Upper Egypt during the 1980 and 90s. From 1992 to 1998 Islamist extremists in Egypt are thought to have killed 127 Copts.

By the end of the 1990s, in Minya province "an ancient center of the Coptic faith", five churches, two charity organizations, and 38 mostly Christian-owned businesses had been burned. Witnesses described the destruction as having been carried out "by gangs of young Muslims wielding iron bars and Molotov cocktails and shouting `God is Great!`" The police have been accused of siding with the attackers in some of these cases.  And in Southern Egypt, there were problems in which involves terrorists going into monasteries, harassing, capturing, and torturing monks (such as the 2008 attacks on the monks of the Monastery of Saint Fana).

Some observers have connected the robberies, extortion and "collection" of "taxes" from Copts to the belief by Islamists that the traditional Jizya poll tax on non-Muslims should be reinstituted. Muslim Brotherhood Supreme Guide Mustafa Mashhur expressed this belief in a 1997 interview. He also stated that while `we do not mind having Christians members in the People's Assembly [national legislature] ... the top officials, especially in the army, should be Muslims since we are a Muslim country," and Christians can not be trusted to fight for Egypt against Christian foreigners.

With his freeing members of the Muslim brotherhood, persecution of the Copts only increased. , statements by Muslim Brotherhood and Sadat further exacerbated the situation of non-Muslims (namely the Copts).

In 1981, President Anwar Sadat, internally exiled the Coptic Pope Shenouda III accusing him of fomenting interconfessional strife. Sadat then chose five Coptic bishops and asked them to choose a new pope. They refused, and in 1985 President Hosni Mubarak restored Pope Shenouda III.

In May 2010, The Wall Street Journal reported increasing "waves of mob assaults" by Muslims against Copts, forcing many Christians to flee their homes. Despite frantic calls for help, the police typically arrived after the violence was over. The police also coerced the Copts to accept "reconciliation" with their attackers to avoid prosecuting them, with no Muslims convicted for any of the attacks.

   * 6 November 1972

Muslim mob attack and burn a prayer meeting by Egyptian Christian Copts at the Holy Scripture College, an attack which preceded the infamous Khanka attacks on the Copts.

   * June 1981

81 Copts were killed by a mob of Muslims. Interior Minister Abu Pasha blamed the deaths on a lack of adequate security measures for which his predecessor Ennabawy Ismael was responsible (according to Abu Pasha).

   * 17 November 1981

Coptic priest the Reverend Maximose Guirguis is kidnapped and threatened with death he does not denounce his Christianity and publicly convert to Islam. He refuses and his throat is cut leaving him bleeding to death.

   * 20 September 1991

Muslim mob attacks Copts in Embaba, an outer suburb of Cairo.

   * 9 March 1992

Manshiet Nasser, Dyroot, Upper Egypt. Copt son of a farmer Badr Abdullah Massoud is gunned down after refusing to pay a tax of about $166 to the local leader of Islamic Group. Massoud's body is then hacked "with knives."

   * 4 May 1992

Villages of Manshia and Weesa in Dyroot, Upper Egypt. After being Manshiet Naser's Christians for weeks, an Islamic extremist methodically shoots 13 of them to death. Victims included ten farmers and a child tending their fields, a doctor leaving his home for work, and an elementary school teacher giving a class.

   * 12 May 1992

A bloodshed in Manfaloot, Upper Egypt, on the Coptic Easter day with 6 Copts murdered and 50 injured, followed by some 200 arrests.

   * 15 & 16 October 1992

Muslim mob attacks with burning and looting of shops and 42 houses owned by Christian Copts, with 3 Copts injured and the destruction of an estimated 5 Million pounds of property, live stock, merchandise and work places Kafr Demian in Sharqueyya in the Nile Delta.

   * 2 December 1992

Muslim mob attacks Copts in the city of Assiut, Upper Egypt.

   * December 1992

Muslim mob attacks Copts in the Village of Meer, Al Quosseya, Upper Egypt, murdering four Copts and slitting the throat of a Coptic jeweller for refusing to pay protection money.

   * 13 March 1997

Muslim mob attacks a Tourist Train with Spanish Tourists, killing 13 Christians and injuring 6, in the Village of Nakhla near Nagge Hammadi.

The terrorists increased the frequency of their attacks and widened it to include whom the viewed as collaborators with the security force, launching an attack on the eve of the Adha Eid using automatic weapons killing Copts as well as Muslims.

   * 1997

Abu Qurqas. "Three masked terrorist" entered St. George Church in Abu Qurqas and shoot dead eight Copts at a weekly youth group meeting. "As the attackers fled, they gunned down a Christian farmer watering his fields."

   * January 2000

Al Kosheh, a "predominantly Christian town" in southern Egypt. After a Muslim customer and a Christian shoe-store owner fall into an argument, three days of rioting and street fighting erupt leaving 20 Christians, (including four children) and one Muslim dead." In the aftermath 38 Muslim defendants are charged with murder in connection with the deaths of the 20 Copts. But all are acquitted of murder charges, and only four are convicting of any (lesser) charges, with the longest sentence given being 10 years." After protest by the Coptic Pope Shenouda the government granted a new trial.

   * 19 November 2000

Muslim mob attempt to force a Copt to pronounce the Islamic faith declarations (Shehadas) then beat him to death when he refuses their demand.

   * 19 April 2009

A group of Muslims (Mahmoud Hussein Mohamed (26 years old), Mohamed Abdel Kader (32 years old), Ramadan Fawzy Mohamed (24 years old), Ahmed Mohamed Saeed (16 years old), and Abu Bakr Mohamed Saeed ) opened fire at Christians on Easter's Eve killing two (Hedra Adib (22 years old), and Amir Estafanos (26 years old)) and injuring another (Mina Samir (25 years old)). This event was in Hegaza village, Koos city. On 22 February 2010, they were sentenced to 25 years of jail while crimes of this level in Egypt should face death penalty.

   * 6 January 2010

Main article: Nag Hammadi massacre

Machine gun attack by Muslim mob on Coptic Christians celebrating the Egyptian birth of Christ. Seven are killed (including a Muslim officer in his trial to defend them) and scores injured, and lots of lives ruined.

   * April/May 2010

In Marsa Matrouh, a mob of 3,000 Muslims attacked the city's Coptic Christian population, with 400 Copts having to barricade themselves in their church while the mob destroyed 18 homes, 23 shops and 16 cars.

   * 01 January 2011 (On New Year's eve)

A car bomb exploded in front of an Alexandria Coptic Orthodox Church killing at least 21 and injuring at least 79. The incident happened a few minutes after midnight as Christians were leaving a New Year's eve Church service

   * 11 January 2011

A policeman opened fire on 6 christians in a train in Samalout station in Minya province resulting in the death of a 71-year old man and injury of 5 others.

Abduction and forced conversion of Coptic women

Coptic women and girls are sometimes abducted, forced to convert to Islam and marry Muslim men.

In April 2010, a bipartisan group of 17 members of the U.S. Congress expressed concern to the State Department’s Trafficking in Persons Office about Coptic women who faced "physical and sexual violence, captivity ... exploitation in forced domestic servitude or commercial sexual exploitation, and financial benefit to the individuals who secure the forced conversion of the victim."

You can't blame that on Islam GH. None of those were Islamic states approved by Abu, so the Muslims in them cannot be held accountable for their actions.

freediver wrote on Jan 14^th, 2011 at 1:00pm:

. You can't blame that on Islam GH. None of those were Islamic states approved by Abu, so the Muslims in them cannot be held accountable for their actions.

LOL

FD,
I'm convinced that Abu, is prolly the only person in Australia, who is a true, pure, moslem.
The rest, are all moslem impersonators.
Like that 'cat meat' Lakemba, Halilli fellow, just moslem impersonator, giving real ISLAM a bad name.
Sadly for ISLAM, there are just so, so, many of them.
/sarc off

Yadda wrote on Jan 14^th, 2011 at 1:28pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 14th, 2011 at 1:00pm: . You can't blame that on Islam GH. None of those were Islamic states approved by Abu, so the Muslims in them cannot be held accountable for their actions. LOL FD, I'm convinced that Abu, is prolly the only person in Australia, who is a true, pure, moslem. The rest, are all moslem impersonators. Like that 'cat meat' Lakemba, Halilli fellow, just moslem impersonator, giving real ISLAM a bad name. Sadly for ISLAM, there are just so, so, many of them. /sarc off

No, he's a retread I'm afraid.

OK.. I get you


I have just had  look around the Muslim forums just now and I wonder if ASIO is monitoring them at all.?  If not they should

Guess who is there, our own Abu rashid

He should be kicked out of this wonderful country of ours with his attitude.

The topic is  - Egypt's Muslims attend Coptic Christmas mass, serving as "human shields"

His reply " masha'allah how noble of them.

Too bad they couldn't feel compelled to do the same for their brothers and sisters in Gaza or in Iraq or Afghanistan."

http://www.aussiemuslims.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43225

GH wrote on Jan 14^th, 2011 at 1:39pm:

. The topic is  - Egypt's Muslims attend Coptic Christmas mass, serving as "human shields" His reply " masha'allah how noble of them. Too bad they couldn't feel compelled to do the same for their brothers and sisters in Gaza or in Iraq or Afghanistan." http://www.aussiemuslims.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43225

Yes, it beats me GH !!

I thought that all real moslems wanted to die, defending ISLAM, that nothing could stop them from laying down their lives for Allah.
Just so that they could assure themselves an entry pass, into Allah's Paradise?

But it seems that unless they have 3kg of Semtex strapped to their bodies, and, they can sneak in among civilians in a produce market, or such, and blow themselves, killing 60-100 other civvies INFIDELS [i meant INFIDELS ! ], that those 'defenders of the faith' really are not that interested in dying to 'defend' ISLAM, and fellow moslems.
Those 'martyrs' for Allah, only want to 'go out' in a big BANG!

Yadda wrote on Jan 14^th, 2011 at 1:55pm:

. I thought that all real moslems wanted to die, defending ISLAM, that nothing could stop them from laying down their lives for Allah.

A SMALL example from ISLAMIC religious texts, encouraging moslems to die, fighting for the spread of ISLAM.

The Hadith;

"The Prophet said, "Nobody who dies and finds good from Allah (in the Hereafter) would wish to come back to this world even if he were given the whole world and whatever is in it, except the martyr who, on seeing the superiority of martyrdom, would like to come back to the world and get killed again (in Allah's Cause)." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.053

"The Prophet said, "...I would love to be martyred in Allah's Cause and then get resurrected and then get martyred, and then get resurrected again and then get martyred and then get resurrected again and then get martyred."
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.054

"The Prophet said, "Nobody who enters Paradise likes to go back to the world even if he got everything on the earth, except a Mujahid who wishes to return to the world so that he may be martyred ten times because of the dignity he receives (from Allah)." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.072

"I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The example of a Mujahid [religious fighter] in Allah's Cause-- and Allah knows better who really strives in His Cause----is like a person who fasts and prays continuously. Allah guarantees that He will admit the Mujahid in His Cause into Paradise if he is killed, otherwise He will return him to his home safely with rewards and war booty." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.046

i.e. Muhammad is reported as saying that for a moslem, religious fighting, is the same as a religious devotion.
Jihad [religious fighting], is as if a muslim 'fasts and prays continuously'.
And that Allah guarantees that a Mujahid [religious fighter] will enter Paradise, if he is killed.


"A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.065
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.080i

"Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's Cause." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #001.002.025




The Koran;

"Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods;....they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:..."
Koran 9.111

I’ll be blowed if I can work their mindset out.
A mate had a thought last week.

All men go to heaven regardless.  Male martyrs get 72 virgins and a boy, when they get to heaven. Women don’t get to heaven UNLESS they are martyrs.  The point is, do they get 72 virgins too, of the male kind?

GH wrote on Jan 14^th, 2011 at 2:27pm:

. I’ll be blowed if I can work their mindset out.

IMO, moslems, Jihadis, have a 'gaining' in mind.

i.e.
They, moslems, are motivated, by the promise, of a 'gaining'.

Their actions, choices in life, are based in their earthly lusts.

And, are NOT, based on meritorious actions, imo.

Dictionary;
meritorious = = deserving reward or praise.




But, moslems are told, and are convinced, that killing 'unbelievers' [those 'unbelievers' who reject ISLAM], is a meritorious act.

Just think about the logic of the moslem mindset;
e.g.
As a reward, Jihadis are promised ENDLESS sex with virgins, whereas for moslems in the earthly domain, the punishment for illicit sex is death.
AND,
Moslems are told that alcohol is 'verbotten', on earth, but in Allah' Paradise, moslems are promised access to rivers of wine.

Go figure.     :o



One of my favourite Koran verses;

"Satan makes them promises, and creates in them false desires; but satan's promises are nothing but deception.
They (his dupes) will have their dwelling in Hell, and from it they will find no way of escape."
Koran 004.120

Quote:

I supported Afghanistan,

Then this is on your hands.

---

Afghan girl raped, killed by US troops

Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:59PM

The daughter of an Afghan politician has reportedly died of her injuries after being raped by American soldiers stationed in Afghanistan's southwestern province of Farah.

US forces aboard five Toyota Hiace vans transferred the teenage girl along with several other Afghan women and girls to a military base in the province. They then sexually assaulted them, Afghan sources, who requested anonymity, told Iran Newspaper on Network on Wednesday.

Medical reports indicate that a young girl died as a result of severe bleeding that was caused by tears in her genitals from violent sexual penetration.

Two other victims were admitted to a nearby hospital and are currently receiving treatment for serious injuries they suffered following multiple rapes.

However, ISAF has told Press TV correspondent that they cannot confirm this report.

The incident comes as violence in Afghanistan has spiked to record highs since the US-led invasion of Afghanistan in 2001.

Statistics about civilian death tolls in Afghanistan are not available. However, it is estimated that between 14,000 and 34,000 Afghan civilians have lost their lives since the US-led war.

Tens of thousands of Afghan civilians have reportedly lost their lives as a consequence of displacement, starvation, disease, exposure, lack of medical treatment, crime and lawlessness resulting from the war.

Afghan Interior Minister Zemarai Bashary said in a recent report that 2010 was the deadliest year for the civilians in the war-torn country since 2001.

Meanwhile, hundreds of civilians have lost their lives in US-led airstrikes and ground operations in various parts of Afghanistan over the past few months, with Afghans becoming more and more outraged over the seemingly endless number of deadly assaults.

This situation is adding fuel to the fire of anti-US sentiment in Afghanistan and the rest of the Islamic world.

Western public opinion is growing increasingly tired of the war. Deaths of civilians in NATO and US attacks have also fueled tensions between President Hamid Karzai and his Western allies.

The American army has lost 1,455 soldiers in Afghanistan since the beginning of the war.

RZS/HRF/MP/AKM

Source: PressTV

Abu, unlike Islamic law, western law forbids and actively punishes rapists, even in war. That is what I support.