Fri. 10 Dec. @ 13.32 –

Hamas PM Ismail Haniyeh was quoted last week as saying he will accept a peace deal subject to a referendum of the Palestinian people. However Hamas’ subsequent statements reject this position.

In a WikiLeaks cable detailing a meeting between Senator John Kerry and the Amir of Qatar in February 2010, the Amir is revealed as stating that ‘Hamas will accept the 1967 border with Israel.’ This is in line with a statement by Ismail Haniyeh on 1 December, in which according to Reuters, he said:

   ‘Hamas will respect the results [of a referendum] regardless of whether it differs with its ideology and principles… We accept a Palestinian state on the borders of 1967, with Jerusalem as its capital, the release of Palestinian prisoners, and the resolution of the issue of refugees’.

However, according the Meir Amit Intelligence and Terrorism Information Centre, this statement has since been substantially qualified. The organisation reports that a mere three days later on 4 December:

  ‘… Salah Bardawil, head of Hamas’ “information” department, clarified Ismail Haniya’s remarks, claiming that Hamas would not recognize Israel “under any circumstances’.

Hamas foreign minister Mahmoud al-Zahar is also reported as qualifying the position further on 6 December, stating that Hamas members ‘would not recognize Israel or cede any part of Palestine.’ The report outlined his position further, saying:

   ‘he would not accept a referendum about fundamental principles. He said that a referendum could be held regarding “modus operandi” but not about “the holy places, faith, money, land or personal worth.” He hinted that should a future agreement which ran counter Hamas’ position be accepted, the movement would renounce it as it had renounced the Oslo Accords’.

This follows a statement issued by Hamas on the 29th November in which they state that ‘the land of Palestine is one unified entity from the [Mediterranean] sea to the [Jordan] river, and the private property of the Palestinian people.’


http://justjournalism.com/the-wire/hamas-contradicts-itself-on-peace-referendum/

As far as I'm aware, Hamas has always said they'd accept a _ceasefire_ in return for the Zionists evacuating what they occupied after 67. But of course, as is only natural, their long term goal is the complete removal of the Zionist entity, back to pre-48 conditions, ie. no Israel.

Do you honestly expect the Palestinian people to ever yearn for anything less? Are you that deluded by your Zionist revisionist propaganda, that you think they're ever going to accept your imposition in their land?

The thought of a 'peace' referendum involving Hamas is a further contradiction in itself, so I doubt any Israeli's are lying awake at night wondering what might have been.
Hamas will take what land they can get for free from the gullable, and attack Israel regardless.
The only thing Israel needs to know is where to find the Hamas filth.

abu_rashid wrote on Dec 12^th, 2010 at 10:27am:

As far as I'm aware, Hamas has always said they'd accept a _ceasefire_ in return for the Zionists evacuating what they occupied after 67. But of course, as is only natural, their long term goal is the complete removal of the Zionist entity, back to pre-48 conditions, ie. no Israel. Do you honestly expect the Palestinian people to ever yearn for anything less? Are you that deluded by your Zionist revisionist propaganda, that you think they're ever going to accept your imposition in their land?

FACT;
The term, 'Palestinian' people, is a fabrication, it is a propaganda lie.
The 'Palestinian' people do not exist, as an entity.
And in recent history, i.e. prior to 1967, the 'Palestinian' people did not exist.


On a day in 1967, Arab Jordanian moslem occupants of Judea and Samaria, went to bed as Jordanians, and the next day they woke up as 'Palestinians'.
Jordanians lost 'their land' of Judea and Samaria, and East Jerusalem, the land they were occupying, when they, Jordanians, joined forces with surrounding Arab/moslem states, attacked, and unsuccessfully tried to destroy the nascent state of Israel in a war of conquest.


+++
A 'Palestinian' people???
Were there ever a 'Palestinian' people, in recent history???

If so;
Who was the king or president of pre-1948 Palestine?
What was the Palestinian currency?
What did the Palestinians trade?
What was the capital of Palestine?
Did they have a parliament and government?
What were its boundaries?
Who were its historic allies?
Who were its historic enemies?
What wars did it fight?
Where are the artefacts and which museums house these artefacts?
Who were its great statesmen?

Was one of them Yasser Arafat???
The Nobel peace prize winner???

Google
Arafat died a billionaire

...while his adoring people, live in tents, and ghettos.

Q.
Why do the 'Palestinian' people still exist today, as refugees?

Q.
Why can't the poor 'Palestinian' refugees be absorbed into surrounding moslems states [especially Jordan!] ???

A.
Because the poor 'Palestinian' refugees [SO LONG AS THEY EXIST] are a convenient propaganda weapon, with which to 'stir up' world opinion against Israel, on the world media stage.



The 'Palestinian' people???

The term 'Palestinian' people, is a falsehood, and a stinking crock, which the people of the world, to their shame, have embraced.

Google
All nations will turn against Israel

abu_rashid wrote on Dec 12^th, 2010 at 10:27am:

As far as I'm aware, Hamas has always said they'd accept a _ceasefire_ in return for the Zionists evacuating what they occupied after 67. But of course, as is only natural, their long term goal is the complete removal of the Zionist entity, back to pre-48 conditions, ie. no Israel. Do you honestly expect the Palestinian people to ever yearn for anything less? Are you that deluded by your Zionist revisionist propaganda, that you think they're ever going to accept your imposition in their land?

Yes, they would yearn for that no doubt.
In fact they would dream about it every night as these are a people who are very good at holding their hand out.
Because for what 4 major wars and years and years of terrorism has failed to produce, they would happily accept 'free' land handed over to them for the agreement of a cheap promise (again) of a cessation of terrorist attacks against Israel.
A very cheap price indeed.
Because just like in 2005, it's a promise never meant to be kept.
And the dream of Israel evacuating to the moon or wherever is just that.
A dream.
The State of Israel is going no-where.

Yadda yadda yadda, still peddling this revisionist garbage?


Quote:

FACT; The term, 'Palestinian' people, is a fabrication, it is a propaganda lie.

Well no more or less a 'people' than all the other post-Ottoman 'peoples', the Lebanese, Jordanians, Syrians, Egyptians, Saudis, Iraqis etc. What does it mean to be a 'people'? Perhaps you can define that for us Yadda, and then we can take it from there.


Quote:

The 'Palestinian' people do not exist, as an entity. And in recent history, i.e. prior to 1967, the 'Palestinian' people did not exist.

Really? So when they adopted the Palestinian flag as their national symbol in 1964, they must've had pretty good foresight, since they didn't even exist yet for another 3 years.  ;D

Yadda, we're all adults here, not children, enough of the fairytales and ridiculous technicalities. When the British divided the Ottoman lands up, there were people living in all of the lands (spare us the 'land without a people for a people without a land' nonsense) . Those living in what the British called Palestine were called Palestinians from that point on, just as those living in Lebanon were called Lebanese and those living in Iraq were called Iraqis.  Even though the term does predate this anyway, in the literature of Arab nationalists such as the bi-weekly newspaper called "Filasteen" which was published by Greek Orthodox Christian Palestinian nationalists in Jaffa from way back in 1911, even during Ottoman times, and in fact if we want to go way back into Arab history, in the early years of Islamic rule, it was called 'Jund Filasteen' for a period. But it's all irrelevant anyway. I couldn't give a crap about the name, it's the people. The Arabs/Muslims who were living there when the British and Zionists arrived have been expelled, that's all that's relevant here. You can spew out all the crap you like, but it doesn't alter this basic fact.


Quote:

On a day in 1967, Arab Jordanian moslem occupants of Judea and Samaria, went to bed as Jordanians, and the next day they woke up as 'Palestinians'.

The 'Jordanian' identity was created after the Palestinian one, so that doesn't make a lot of sense.

Anyway... moving along.


Quote:

the nascent state of Israel

Thank you. That says it all.

Nascent, meaning it didn't previously exist there, meaning it was an imposition, an invasion, an unwanted intrusion into someone elses land.


Quote:

If so; Who was the king or president of pre-1948 Palestine?

Ok, I'm going to just assume you're bit slow here.

Prior to the British invasion the entire Middle East was part of the Islamic Caliphate. The "King" was called sultan Muhammad Reshad, the Prime Minister (Grand Wazir), not President, was called Ahmed İzzet Pasha.


Quote:

What was the Palestinian currency?

*raises hand* I know I know, Palestinian pound.

http://rpmedia.ask.com/ts?u=/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e0/Palestine_Pound_1939_front.jpg/140px-Palestine_Pound_1939_front.jpg


Quote:

What did the Palestinians trade?

Have a read of this if you're sincerely interested in reading about commerce in Palestine in the late Ottoman period. (also I suspect you are not).


Quote:

What was the capital of Palestine?

The regional capital during the Ottoman period? al-Quds.of course, as it was during the British occupation period as well.

Anyway I'm tiring... I think you get it. And if you don't, not much more I can do for you.

Very good reply abu.

But....your very impressive image of a Palestinian pound, was printed by the British authorities, who administered 'Palestine' after WWI.

But please, where is your image of the Palestinian pound, prior to the British administration of  'Palestine', prior to WWI???
Everyone knows, that there was no such currency.
Because i repeat, there was no such people, or nation, known as 'Palestine' [in recent history].

And thank you for confirming that 'Palestine' was previously just one part of a group of lands within, and administered by, the Ottoman empire.

+++
But Abu,
There is a 'Palestinian' state.
There is a 'Palestinian' homeland.
It is called Jordan.

IMAGES...

http://zioneocon.blogspot.com/map%20partition%20transjordan.gif
http://zioneocon.blogspot.com/map%20partition%20transjordan.gif

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/oren/Transjordan%20separation%201922.jpg
http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/oren/Transjordan%20separation%201922.jpg




Are Israelis occupying 'Palestinian' lands???

No.

Historically (WWI), legally and, by applying ISLAM's own standards, Israelis have an absolute right to the land which they have secured.
Why so???
#1,
War has always been regarded as a huge 'reset button' on property rights.
And prior to WWI, the land which constitutes present day Israel, was not, and never was owned, possessed, or administered under the authority of local 'Palestinians'.
Turkey [the Ottoman empire] 'inherited' the Jewish homeland, which was 'acquired' [by moslems] through warfare / Jihad in the region [in the 600's AD].

see, ISLAM 101
http://www.jihadwatch.org/islam-101.html

Turkey eventually lawfully lost control over its administered territories in the region, as a consequence of its participation in WWI.
And, those territories also included that land which was previously the ancient Jewish homeland, the land area today known as Israel.

Post WWI, the world powers of that time decided to carve up, as they saw fit, those territories previously administered by Turkey.
And the world powers of that time determined to set aside an area of those territories, a small fraction of those territories, as a national Jewish homeland.
These actions, by world powers, post WWI were lawful.


The Israelis have an absolute right to the land they have secured.
#2,
Moslems themselves declare [and ISLAMIC doctrine confirms] that all non-moslem lands secured by warfare for ISLAM, lawfully belongs to moslems.
And while some may accuse Israel of occupying 'Palestinian' lands, by applying ISLAM's own standards, Israel today has legally acquired their land, of Israel.
Since the war of 1967, a war which Israel did not instigate, Israel has a moral right to all of the land they secured.
And please note that all of 'Israel's wars' in the region, have all been defensive, and were not instigated by Israel.

Good post Yadda.
Unfortunately, the Jordanians aren't interested in allowing the Palestinians out of their 'camps' to settle in Jordan as citizens, primarily because their are so many of them.
And after tearing up all the dual Palestinian / Jordanian passports recently only demonstrates further that the Jordanians don't want a bar of the Palestinians.

Yadda wrote on Dec 15^th, 2010 at 9:45am:

And the world powers of that time determined to set aside an area of those territories, a small fraction of those territories, as a national Jewish homeland. These actions, by world powers, post WWI were lawful.

Yes Abu, those poor, poor, 'Palestinian' people, who have nowhere to live.
Shock, horror.
Coz those wicked Joos stole their land!!
Boo hoo! Boo hoo! Boo hoo!
/sarc off


http://www.protestwarrior.com/nimages/signs/large/pw_sign_22.gif


http://www.protestwarrior.com/nimages/signs/large/pw_sign_22.gif

And Allah Akbar to you Abu.




And while all nations will turn against, and soon come against Israel...
Israel, plus the God of Israel, equals, a majority.

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Dec 15^th, 2010 at 9:54am:

Unfortunately, the Jordanians aren't interested in allowing the Palestinians out of their 'camps' to settle in Jordan as citizens, primarily because their are so many of them. And after tearing up all the dual Palestinian / Jordanian passports recently only demonstrates further that the Jordanians don't want a bar of the Palestinians.

Jordanians and 'Palestinians' are ethnically, the same people.

Nothing will prevent, or turn away, what is coming upon the heads, of those people who refer to themselves, as 'Palestinians' [and Jordanians].
They are choosing their own fate.
Just as, in this life, each of us does.




"...Because thou hast had a perpetual hatred, and hast shed the blood of the children of Israel by the force of the sword in the time of their calamity, in the time that their iniquity had an end:
Therefore, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will prepare thee unto blood, and blood shall pursue thee: sith thou hast not hated blood, even blood shall pursue thee.
....And thou shalt know that I am the LORD, and that I have heard all thy blasphemies which thou hast spoken against the mountains of Israel, saying, They are laid desolate, they are given us to consume.
Thus with your mouth ye have boasted against me, and have multiplied your words against me: I have heard them.
Thus saith the Lord GOD; When the whole earth rejoiceth, I will make thee desolate.
As thou didst rejoice at the inheritance of the house of Israel, because it was desolate, so will I do unto thee: thou shalt be desolate, O mount Seir, and all Idumea, even all of it: and they shall know that I am the LORD."
Ezekiel 35


"...Thus with your mouth ye have boasted against me,"

"Allah Akbar!", literally means, 'Allah is greater'
...greater, than the God of Israel, is the implication.



In the context of Ezekiel 35,

Idumea = = Edom = = Jordan = = 'Palestinians'


Psalms 83:4
They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.

Yadda wrote on Dec 15^th, 2010 at 10:00am:

Yadda wrote on Dec 15th, 2010 at 9:45am: And the world powers of that time determined to set aside an area of those territories, a small fraction of those territories, as a national Jewish homeland. These actions, by world powers, post WWI were lawful. Yes Abu, those poor, poor, 'Palestinian' people, who have nowhere to live. Shock, horror. Coz those wicked Joos stole their land!! Boo hoo! Boo hoo! Boo hoo! /sarc off http://www.protestwarrior.com/nimages/signs/large/pw_sign_22.gif http://www.protestwarrior.com/nimages/signs/large/pw_sign_22.gif And Allah Akbar to you Abu. And while all nations will turn against, and soon come against Israel... Israel, plus the God of Israel, equals, a majority.

Doesn't Abu consider Spain to be part of Muslim lands?

abu_rashid wrote on Dec 12^th, 2010 at 10:27am:

... back to pre-48 conditions, ie. no Israel.

If we are going to return to a more romantic era what about 'to the victor go the spoils?' Isn't Israel entitled to keep the real estate secured by fighting?

As far as I'm aware the age of conquest has come to an end. International law clearly states that it's illegal to settle civilians into occupied territories. Israel is one big case of this, the British occupied a territory and brought in foreign civilians to settle it.

If however you'd prefer to return to that age... so be it, I'm sure the Muslims can oblige. You'd be risking a lot by doing so though.

abu_rashid wrote on Dec 17^th, 2010 at 7:12am:

As far as I'm aware the age of conquest has come to an end. International law clearly states that it's illegal to settle civilians into occupied territories. Israel is one big case of this, the British occupied a territory and brought in foreign civilians to settle it. If however you'd prefer to return to that age... so be it, I'm sure the Muslims can oblige. You'd be risking a lot by doing so though.

Been there, done that Abu.
Thousands upon thousands of their bones still lie in the desert along with the thousands of burnt out twisted tanks and aircraft from the 4 wars of their making which they all magnificently lost along with more land.
And Israel came out stronger after every single war.
The genie is out of the bottle Abu, and it won't go back in.
Israel is going nowhere.

abu_rashid wrote on Dec 17^th, 2010 at 7:12am:

As far as I'm aware the age of conquest has come to an end. International law clearly states that it's illegal to settle civilians into occupied territories. Israel is one big case of this, the British occupied a territory and brought in foreign civilians to settle it.If however you'd prefer to return to that age... so be it, I'm sure the Muslims can oblige. You'd be risking a lot by doing so though.

Abu, the international law you're referring to is the 4th Geneva Convention...and Article 49 states that "The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies", which the British didn't actually do....Oh and the GC-IV wasn't adopted until August 1949 any way....

abu_rashid wrote on Dec 17^th, 2010 at 7:12am:

As far as I'm aware the age of conquest has come to an end. International law clearly states that it's illegal to settle civilians into occupied territories. Israel is one big case of this, the British occupied a territory and brought in foreign civilians to settle it. If however you'd prefer to return to that age... so be it, I'm sure the Muslims can oblige. You'd be risking a lot by doing so though.

When did it come to an end Abu?

Fact is the British Mandate has no legality today and is null and void.

UN Resolution 181 overode all previous agreements and Israel agreed to that in order to gain Sovereignty via 181.

Israel agreed in its Sovereignty statement to the UN that it accepted the borders and conditions as set out in 181. The Palestinian Territories were earmarked and kept in safe keeping as a seperate Arab State when they were ready to accept. The Palestinian Terrritories were never deemed Israeli Sovereign Territory.

Nor can Israel ever claim Sovereignty over the territories given it is a belligerent occupier and is also in breach of its responsibilities as an occupier.

Under International law it is inadmissible to acquire territory by the use of force...defensively or offensively.

This was spelt out to Israel in Resolution 242 and subsequent reminders up to the present day.

The Fourth Geneva Convention makes all settlements on Palestinian Territory illegal.

When did it come to an end Abu?


****Specifically at the end of the second world war due to the problems caused by German occupation. It was written into the League of Nations Charter and the UN Charter that followed the winding up of the League of Nations. See Territorial integrity and respect of borders.

Wasn't the establishment of Israel part of the winding up of that war?

inbound39 wrote on Dec 20^th, 2010 at 9:25am:

Fact is the British Mandate has no legality today and is null and void. UN Resolution 181 overode all previous agreements and Israel agreed to that in order to gain Sovereignty via 181. Israel agreed in its Sovereignty statement to the UN that it accepted the borders and conditions as set out in 181. The Palestinian Territories were earmarked and kept in safe keeping as a seperate Arab State when they were ready to accept. The Palestinian Terrritories were never deemed Israeli Sovereign Territory. Nor can Israel ever claim Sovereignty over the territories given it is a belligerent occupier and is also in breach of its responsibilities as an occupier.

Israel did agree with the borders and conditions as set out, right up until the day after Israel's inception.
Because it was on this day the armies of the Arab League made their respective governments position on the matter known when they attacked Israel in a surprise attack with the objective of seizing all the territory.
Why do you expect Israel to honour an agreement that the Arabs tore up themselves in blood and fire.
Their's a bit too much water under the bridge now.

inbound39 wrote on Dec 20^th, 2010 at 9:30am:

Under International law it is inadmissible to acquire territory by the use of force...defensively or offensively. This was spelt out to Israel in Resolution 242 and subsequent reminders up to the present day. The Fourth Geneva Convention makes all settlements on Palestinian Territory illegal.

And that was torn up when the majority of Palestinian territory turned into the Kingdom of Jordan, so take it up with them.
And the Jordanians are turning nothing over to the Palestinians, and want no more of them in Jordan.

The Arab armies formally declared a defensive war against the jews due to the jews implementing plan Dalet and previous plans to run and expel the Palestinians out of all of Palestine. It was the jews intent to take ALL of Palestine and take advantage of the British withdrawal.

Re:Palestinian state #3 Reply to this message
http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/0/AEAC80E740C782 E4852561150071FDB0

The Origins and Evolution
of the Palestine Problem:
1917-1988

PART I

1917-1947

A truer version of events....fuller and more factual than presented by Zionists.....including Zionist aggressive attitudes to Arabs from day one. It exposes more Zionist propaganda lies.

http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/0/D442111E70E417 E3802564740045A309

The Origins and Evolution
of the Palestine Problem:
1917-1988


PART II

1947-1977

If you go here the the UN site...you can find out the official facts on everything pertaining to the Palestinian Conflict...Zionist intent,Israels invasion of Arab territory designed to take advantiage of the withdrawal of British forces to seize more territory than 181 had granted them, mass expulsions,massacres, Arab Official stance on ALL issues....ALL resolutions and the pedantics and semantics of Israel....Lausanne Conference and more.....it paints an entirely different and fuller picture than that put forward by the confirmed and admitted Zionists. For example....Zionists assert that 194 was also about compensating jewish refugees and their repatriation.....you will find no mention of any such thing in this honest and true and official account.

http://unispal.un.org/pdfs/DPI2499.pdf

The above PDF file is a MUST READ for anyone interested in the TRUE FACTS of the ISRAELI/PALESTINIAN CONFLICT.....it contains maps and pictures and clear explainations of ALL issues from the commencement of the conflict, through to The Partition Plan and RESOLUTIONS 181,194,242,338 and all subsequent talks such as Sharm Al Sheikh,Camp David,Oslo Accords,The Road Map, Wye River,Annapolis. It gives reports from the Special Rapporteur on various issues and discusses the refugee issues in detail......never mind Zionist fairytales...read the real deal.

And the Jordanians are turning nothing over to the Palestinians, and want no more of them in Jordan.


Correct because the Israeli's would love and are trying to force Palestinians into Jordan and out of Palestinian territory...which is officially Palestinian. Jordan has rejected Palestinians haveing the right of citizenship in Jordan in order to block Israeli moves in denying Palestinians their own rightful territory.

inbound39 wrote on Dec 21^st, 2010 at 12:33pm:

The Arab armies formally declared a defensive war against the jews due to the jews implementing plan Dalet and previous plans to run and expel the Palestinians out of all of Palestine. It was the jews intent to take ALL of Palestine and take advantage of the British withdrawal.

Nice try.
This was only ever just Arab propaganda.
The reality is the Israeli's never implemented any plan to expel Palestinians.
Israel was one day old when it was attacked.
And the Arab League planned their invasion months in advance.

inbound39 wrote on Dec 21^st, 2010 at 12:41pm:

And the Jordanians are turning nothing over to the Palestinians, and want no more of them in Jordan. Correct because the Israeli's would love and are trying to force Palestinians into Jordan and out of Palestinian territory...which is officially Palestinian. Jordan has rejected Palestinians haveing the right of citizenship in Jordan in order to block Israeli moves in denying Palestinians their own rightful territory.

No Jordan has rejected the Palestinians right to citizenship because of the Black September battles..

Quote:

No Jordan has rejected the Palestinians right to citizenship because of the Black September battles..

Really? So no Palestinian refugees in Jordan have citizenship? If so, what %? Please do tell...

Quote:

Nice try. This was only ever just Arab propaganda. The reality is the Israeli's never implemented any plan to expel Palestinians. Israel was one day old when it was attacked. And the Arab League planned their invasion months in advance.

Israel was a non-existent entity. Illegal Jewish immigrants invaded the country, setup militias and fought their way into a position to be able to setup a state. That is in itself an act of war against the existing inhabitants (Arabs). Plan Dalet is a well known historical fact, not even denied by Israel herself. Your pathetic denial of it here is just an indication of how horribly ignorant you are on this issue.

abu_rashid wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2010 at 5:12pm:

Quote: No Jordan has rejected the Palestinians right to citizenship because of the Black September battles.. Really? So no Palestinian refugees in Jordan have citizenship? If so, what %? Please do tell...

100%

abu_rashid wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2010 at 5:14pm:

Quote: Nice try. This was only ever just Arab propaganda. The reality is the Israeli's never implemented any plan to expel Palestinians. Israel was one day old when it was attacked. And the Arab League planned their invasion months in advance. Israel was a non-existent entity. Illegal Jewish immigrants invaded the country, setup militias and fought their way into a position to be able to setup a state. That is in itself an act of war against the existing inhabitants (Arabs). Plan Dalet is a well known historical fact, not even denied by Israel herself. Your pathetic denial of it here is just an indication of how horribly ignorant you are on this issue.

Sorry, Israel IS an existent entity, recognised by 90% of the world..

Quote:

100%

100% do or don't have citizenship?


Quote:

Sorry, Israel IS an existent entity, recognised by 90% of the world..

Temporarily, yes. But that's completely irrelevant to my post, enough of your usual diversionary nonsense.

abu_rashid wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2010 at 5:14pm:

Quote: Nice try. This was only ever just Arab propaganda. The reality is the Israeli's never implemented any plan to expel Palestinians. Israel was one day old when it was attacked. And the Arab League planned their invasion months in advance. Israel was a non-existent entity. Illegal Jewish immigrants invaded the country, setup militias and fought their way into a position to be able to setup a state. That is in itself an act of war against the existing inhabitants (Arabs). Plan Dalet is a well known historical fact, not even denied by Israel herself. Your pathetic denial of it here is just an indication of how horribly ignorant you are on this issue.

The UN set up the state Abu, not a few illegal immigrants.
You need to read more.

Quote:

The UN set up the state Abu, not a few illegal immigrants.

When the Zionist 'project' began, the Jewish population of Palestine was no more than 2%. Those who came mostly came illegally.

The U.N has no right to create states. It never has and still doesn't till this day. It was created by the British, first through their invasion/occupation, then by bringing in the Jews, then by training them in militias, and then by withdrawing at the strategic time. Although they officially ended up prohibiting immigration of Jews, that was all a farce to keep the Arabs on side until their mission (ie. the Jewish population saturation) was complete.


Quote:

You need to read more.

No, you just need to read factual historical accounts, not Zionist fairytales.

Quote:

The U.N has no right to create states.

Funny how you happily use the UN's mandate when it supports your argument, but conventiently deny they even have a mandate when it doesn't.

Why bother referring to them to back up your argument when you see them as completely illegitmate anyway? Do you see us using an illigitimate authority to legitimise our claims? It just makes you look like a hypocrit. It hardly undermines the Zionists when you accuse them of going against the UN rulings when you reject those rulings too. If you are free to pick and choose when the UN has a right to make a ruling, why aren't they?

The entire Islamic argument against Israel reeks of hypocrisy, because Shariah law permits far nastier practices from Muslims.

abu_rashid wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2010 at 8:21pm:

Quote: The UN set up the state Abu, not a few illegal immigrants. When the Zionist 'project' began, the Jewish population of Palestine was no more than 2%. Those who came mostly came illegally. The U.N has no right to create states. It never has and still doesn't till this day. It was created by the British, first through their invasion/occupation, then by bringing in the Jews, then by training them in militias, and then by withdrawing at the strategic time. Although they officially ended up prohibiting immigration of Jews, that was all a farce to keep the Arabs on side until their mission (ie. the Jewish population saturation) was complete. [quote]You need to read more.

No, you just need to read factual historical accounts, not Zionist fairytales.[/quote]

Abu, the UN has set up states, redrawn borders throughout the 20th century whether in the Middle East or in the Balkans.
To say they have no right to do so is just fairytale stuff.
The British just drew up the plans which could not have occurred if not for the US and the UN.

Quote:

Funny how you happily use the UN's mandate when it supports your argument, but conventiently deny they even have a mandate when it doesn't.

LOL you're a joke fd. This is the Zionist ruse, not mine. They harp on about how evil the U.N is, and how all it's decisions are wrong, then claim it as justification for their very existence.

NOWHERE have I used the U.N to justify anything. The U.N is an illegitimate body which should be dismantled.

Interestingly all you did was quote me saying they have no right to create states, nowhere did you quote me showing that I use them to support my arguments (because I obviously do not).

Quote:

NOWHERE have I used the U.N to justify anything. The U.N is an illegitimate body which should be dismantled.

So why use UN resolutions to back up your claims that Israel is acting illigitimately?

International law clearly states that it's illegal to settle civilians into occupied territories.

Where is this internationallaw you refer to from Abu?


Quote:

If however you'd prefer to return to that age... so be it, I'm sure the Muslims can oblige. You'd be risking a lot by doing so though.

You think they'd win? Or would they only obligue because of their tendency to bring about their own destruction?

That was merely a retort to the claim that Britain 'owned' Palestine, and therefore had every right to set into motion the events which led to the mass influx of Jews and the eventual creation of the Zionist state.

Nowhere did I use it as a justification.

abu_rashid wrote on Dec 24^th, 2010 at 7:14am:

Quote: Funny how you happily use the UN's mandate when it supports your argument, but conventiently deny they even have a mandate when it doesn't. LOL you're a joke fd. This is the Zionist ruse, not mine. They harp on about how evil the U.N is, and how all it's decisions are wrong, then claim it as justification for their very existence. NOWHERE have I used the U.N to justify anything. The U.N is an illegitimate body which should be dismantled. Interestingly all you did was quote me saying they have no right to create states, nowhere did you quote me showing that I use them to support my arguments (because I obviously do not).

Abu, the UN is the basis for International Law....if the UN is 'illegal', the so is ALL International Law...

So pick ONE, it's either 'illegal' to install (your own)civilian population in 'occupied' areas OR the UN is an illegitimate body...

You still don't seem to get it gizmo.

I am not stating what is legitimate or isn't. I'm pointing out that the Zionist claim to legitimacy is flawed, since it uses the U.N to establish it's legitimacy, when the U.N & it's international law prohibits the very actions used to bring the Zionist entity into existence to begin with.

The Zionist argument is the one which contradicts here, not my view.

Don't you just love the way he uses Zionist all the time?

"Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism"
- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth.

"Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so.

"Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them.

"The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country.

"How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land.

This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less.

"And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism.

"The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'!

"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate antisemitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share.

Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it."

   From M.L. King Jr., "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," Saturday Review_XLVII (Aug. 1967), p. 76.
   Reprinted in M.L. King Jr., "This I Believe: Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr."

http://christianactionforisrael.org/antiholo/ml_king.html

abu_rashid wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2010 at 8:21pm:

Quote: The UN set up the state Abu, not a few illegal immigrants. When the Zionist 'project' began, the Jewish population of Palestine was no more than 2%. Those who came mostly came illegally. The U.N has no right to create states. It never has and still doesn't till this day. It was created by the British, first through their invasion/occupation, then by bringing in the Jews, then by training them in militias, and then by withdrawing at the strategic time. Although they officially ended up prohibiting immigration of Jews, that was all a farce to keep the Arabs on side until their mission (ie. the Jewish population saturation) was complete. [quote]You need to read more.

No, you just need to read factual historical accounts, not Zionist fairytales.[/quote]
No Abu, it's you who needs to read factual historical accounts

I know what happened my family was there

Quote:

I am not stating what is legitimate or isn't. I'm pointing out that the Zionist claim to legitimacy

Abu, what exactly is the 'Zionist claim to legitimacy'? Is it something to do with the protocols?

huh? Have you overdosed on your medication or something tonight? Still hung over from last night?

It is a strawman argument Abu. You invent their argument for them so that you can pull it apart without the need for any mental effort.

Which argument did I invent for them exactly fd?

Quote:

I'm pointing out that the Zionist claim to legitimacy is flawed, since it uses the U.N to establish it's legitimacy

As far as I can tell, Israel establishes it's legitimacy by slaughtering the Arab armies that come to destroy it, and is just as happy as the Arabs to reject the UN.

Declaring it an illegitimate state using the rulings of an organisation whose mandate you yourself reject just smacks of hypocrisy.

fd it's a common element of the Zionist discourse to refer to the U.N partition plan to legitimise their presence in Palestine. I did not invent any argument for them, you simply don't know that much about their arguments. As usual you're just rambling.

Fact is fact mister.

More facts for you....more Zionists live elsewhere in the world than in Israel.

And , by the way, your antisemitism is showing !!

There are some passages in The koran that not only recognise Israel's right to exist, but stipulate that the Land
was given to them by Allah.

[Sura 10] Jonah: "We settled the Israelites in a blessed land and provided them with good things."
Then to reinforce the message, adds; "If you doubt what We have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you."

[Sura 5:20] Recall that Moses said to his people (the Jews), "O my people, remember GOD's blessings upon you: He appointed prophets from among you, made you kings, and granted you what He never granted any other people."

[Sura 5:21] "O my people, enter the holy land (Israel) that GOD has decreed for you, and do not rebel, lest you become losers."
Later in the Koran, in order to make it clear and leave no doubts that the Jewish G-d had given ownership of the land to and set the mission of the Jews, Mohammed took additional time to repeat the writing of the Torah in Sura 7 about the Jews and Moses:

[Sura 7:137] "We let the oppressed people inherit the land, east and west, and we blessed it. The blessed commands of your Lord were thus fulfilled for the Children of Israel, to reward them for their steadfastness, and we annihilated the works of Pharaoh and his people and everything they harvested."

[Sura 7:144] He said, "O Moses, I have chosen you (the Jews), out of all the people, with My messages and by speaking to you. Therefore, take what I have given you and be appreciative."

Therefore, even according to the Koran, the prophet Mohammed's writings, the Jews were ordered into Israel by Allah !

What is shocking is that most Muslims have never heard of it and never were taught these passages by their mullahs! These parts of the Koran have also been deliberately removed from any discussion of Islamic doctrine by not just Muslim but also Western Islamic scholars!





abu_rashid wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2011 at 6:02pm:

fd it's a common element of the Zionist discourse to refer to the U.N partition plan to legitimise their presence in Palestine. I did not invent any argument for them, you simply don't know that much about their arguments. As usual you're just rambling.

Quote:

fd it's a common element of the Zionist discourse

You mean you have read it before on internet forums?

GH,


Quote:

More facts for you....more Zionists live elsewhere in the world than in Israel.

I know you're not the brightest spark in the world, but surely you must realise this negates another commonly peddled Zionist argument, that Israel is required because Jews have no other place to go...


Quote:

And , by the way, your antisemitism is showing

Typical sign of a Zionist losing an argument, the appearance of the word antisemitism.


Quote:

There are some passages in The koran that not only recognise Israel's right to exist, but stipulate that the Land was given to them by Allah.

That's right it was given to them (about 3250 years ago), and it was also taken from them (which is mentioned in their own book too) about 2500 years ago.


Quote:

Therefore, even according to the Koran, the prophet Mohammed's writings, the Jews were ordered into Israel by Allah !

Well, the Israelites/Hebrews yes, not the Jews. Jews as a people did not come into existence until a millenia or so later. Note also that this was 3250 years ago, and about 1000 years before they were then expelled from the land by God (also according to their own writings).


Quote:

What is shocking is that most Muslims have never heard of it and never were taught these passages by their mullahs! These parts of the Koran have also been deliberately removed from any discussion of Islamic doctrine by not just Muslim but also Western Islamic scholars!

Considering most Muslims do not have a 'mullah', it's not surprising their 'mullah' never taught them this.

These verses are quoted all the time by Muslims, because we're not so feeble minded as to think they mean 3250 years later, long after they've been booted out by God, that they've got some right to come and squat in people's homes.

bump

freediver wrote on Jun 17^th, 2012 at 9:08pm:

bump

Usually you don't bump a topic when the opposing opinion has had the last post  ;D