Industry opposes Christmas penalty rates


THE Australian Industry Group has applied to cancel Christmas and New Year's Day penalty rates for workers, arguing companies shouldn't have to pay staff extra - despite the NSW government declaring them public holidays.

The employer group has argued to the Fair Work tribunal that penalty rates should only be paid to staff working the substitute holidays - the following Monday and Tuesday - as Christmas, Boxing Day and New Year's Day fall on a weekend.

But the government yesterday defended its right to decide which days were public holidays, and said workers should be paid accordingly.
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''Any attempt to attack penalty rates will tilt the balance too far in favour of corporations and big business and away from working families,'' the NSW Minister for Industrial Relations, Paul Lynch, told the Herald.

It is the first time employers have dealt with the Christmas season under the federal government's full Fair Work system.

The AI Group case focuses on manufacturing workers, but its chief executive, Heather Ridout, said: ''The tribunal's decision will impact on many industries which operate over the holiday period''.

The National Employment Standards in the Fair Work Act apply to all workers and includes public holiday remuneration. But the AI Group contends federal workplace awards don't recognise state gazettal of public holidays.

Mr Lynch said: ''Under the Fair Work Act, the states retain the power to make laws declaring which days are public holidays in its jurisdiction.''

Ms Ridout said each state had different public holiday arrangements and it was causing ''potentially costly confusion'' for employers.

If employers want people to work weekends and public holidays, then they can pay the penalty rates.  The Australian industry group, can jump in the lake.

You have missed the point.

Because both Xmas and New Years Days are both Saturdays, we employers not only have to pay them for the public holiday for those days, even if they dont work them, but then we have to back up and pay them another public holiday on the following Tuesdays.

Employers have been slugged with the cost of two extra public holidays because of it.

Because our business runs 7 days a weeks under the award we still have to pay them.

I dont have a problem paying people penality rates.  I have a problem when the government makes us pay EXTRA because one of them falls on a Saturday so to give office workers an extra day off, they make 7 day a week businesses pick up the tab.

Now where is the fairness in that.

I wonder how many CEOs or senior management staff will be working on these 2 days?????


uummmm, NONE I bet.

Anyone who has to work on the genuine Holiday day should be properly paid by Mr Scrooge.

If the employer does not want to pay penalties for someone to work on xmas day it is simple just do not roster them to work that day.

I have worked a number of xmas days in the past without being properly paid the correct penalty rates while people who did not work the PH were paid the rates. It is blatently unfair that way too.

The AIG are treading a thin draconian and anti-family line by raising this...

Even for non-Xtians, the short holiday break from Xmas thru' New Year is traditionally the time for holding the most important nuclear and extended family gatherings each year - and many people need to travel long distances in order to attend one or more of those gatherings...

This period usually coincides with several weekend days and official public holidays - some years there are more, other years there are less but it all balances out over time...

Rest, recreation and celebration of family and culture are all crucial to the physical and mental well-being of human beings - including human units of economic production...

If employers require their workers to serve them on a traditional holiday, on which their workers would rather be spending precious time with their families (often being mindful that some members may not live through another year), then the employers ought to be prepared to compensate their workers financially...

Both DNA and Nem have missed the point.

We dont mind paying public holiday rates.

If we want our staff to work christmas day, which they do, we dont have a problem paying them.

But this year, not only do we have to pay them for Xmas day on the Saturday, we also have to pay them for Boxing Day on the Monday (which is also fine), but an EXTRA ONE on the Tuesday as well.

And then we cop the same with New Years.  We have to pay the public holiday rate for the Saturday (which is fine, no problems there) but then we cop AN EXTRA DAY where we have to pay it for Monday the 3 Jan.

The old way used to be if it fell on a weekend, it got moved to the nearest weekday.  This time around they kept it, and granted another two.

The governments decision is going to cost us $20k in two weeks, and we have to just take it on the chin.

Who is the one being draconian Nem?

I dont have a problem paying public holidays, and nether does others, but when we cop two extras it damn well bloody hurts.

Verge wrote on Nov 9^th, 2010 at 12:13pm:

Both DNA and Nem have missed the point. We dont mind paying public holiday rates. If we want our staff to work christmas day, which they do, we dont have a problem paying them. But this year, not only do we have to pay them for Xmas day on the Saturday, we also have to pay them for Boxing Day on the Monday (which is also fine), but an EXTRA ONE on the Tuesday as well. And then we cop the same with New Years.  We have to pay the public holiday rate for the Saturday (which is fine, no problems there) but then we cop AN EXTRA DAY where we have to pay it for Monday the 3 Jan. The old way used to be if it fell on a weekend, it got moved to the nearest weekday.  This time around they kept it, and granted another two. The governments decision is going to cost us $20k in two weeks, and we have to just take it on the chin. Who is the one being draconian Nem? I dont have a problem paying public holidays, and nether does others, but when we cop two extras it damn well bloody hurts.

Wow, $20K extra in holiday pay loadings in 2 weeks - that does seem a lot...until one considers the amount of revenue the business will choose to forego, if the business opts to shut down for those extra couple of days...

Be honest, Verge: -

Is this holiday period particularly quiet in your business - or perhaps extra busy!?

Is this period generally more or less profitable for your business than the average for periods of the same length over the rest of the year!?

Will your business be expected to run at a profit or at a loss, on those extra days that those penalty rates are payable!?

What is the usual fortnightly turnover in your business for that holiday period that are we talking about here?

Equitist wrote on Nov 9^th, 2010 at 12:51pm:

Verge wrote on Nov 9th, 2010 at 12:13pm: Both DNA and Nem have missed the point. We dont mind paying public holiday rates. If we want our staff to work christmas day, which they do, we dont have a problem paying them. But this year, not only do we have to pay them for Xmas day on the Saturday, we also have to pay them for Boxing Day on the Monday (which is also fine), but an EXTRA ONE on the Tuesday as well. And then we cop the same with New Years.  We have to pay the public holiday rate for the Saturday (which is fine, no problems there) but then we cop AN EXTRA DAY where we have to pay it for Monday the 3 Jan. The old way used to be if it fell on a weekend, it got moved to the nearest weekday.  This time around they kept it, and granted another two. The governments decision is going to cost us $20k in two weeks, and we have to just take it on the chin. Who is the one being draconian Nem? I dont have a problem paying public holidays, and nether does others, but when we cop two extras it damn well bloody hurts. Wow, $20K extra in holiday pay loadings in 2 weeks - that does seem a lot...until one considers the amount of revenue the business will choose to forego, if the business opts to shut down for those extra couple of days... Be honest, Verge: - Is this holiday period particularly quiet in your business - or perhaps extra busy!? Is this period generally more or less profitable for your business than the average for periods of the same length over the rest of the year!? Will your business be expected to run at a profit or at a loss, on those extra days that those penalty rates are payable!? What is the usual fortnightly turnover in your business for that holiday period that are we talking about here?

Is the turnover really relevant Equitist???
Some shops won't even make 20k in those 2 weeks, which means a net loss....Especially considering the predictions of reduced spending THIS year, due to financial pressures from mortgage rates, rising power bills and financial downturns.....

Equitist wrote on Nov 9^th, 2010 at 12:51pm:

Verge wrote on Nov 9th, 2010 at 12:13pm: Both DNA and Nem have missed the point. We dont mind paying public holiday rates. If we want our staff to work christmas day, which they do, we dont have a problem paying them. But this year, not only do we have to pay them for Xmas day on the Saturday, we also have to pay them for Boxing Day on the Monday (which is also fine), but an EXTRA ONE on the Tuesday as well. And then we cop the same with New Years.  We have to pay the public holiday rate for the Saturday (which is fine, no problems there) but then we cop AN EXTRA DAY where we have to pay it for Monday the 3 Jan. The old way used to be if it fell on a weekend, it got moved to the nearest weekday.  This time around they kept it, and granted another two. The governments decision is going to cost us $20k in two weeks, and we have to just take it on the chin. Who is the one being draconian Nem? I dont have a problem paying public holidays, and nether does others, but when we cop two extras it damn well bloody hurts. Wow, $20K extra in holiday pay loadings in 2 weeks - that does seem a lot...until one considers the amount of revenue the business will choose to forego, if the business opts to shut down for those extra couple of days... Be honest, Verge: - Is this holiday period particularly quiet in your business - or perhaps extra busy!? Is this period generally more or less profitable for your business than the average for periods of the same length over the rest of the year!? Will your business be expected to run at a profit or at a loss, on those extra days that those penalty rates are payable!? What is the usual fortnightly turnover in your business for that holiday period that are we talking about here?

Thy, I owned a business in a busy tourist location which had the same level of trade on the public holidays that it did on the other days around it.  Even with a 15% surcharge, which now must be built into the price, it wasn't worth our time opening on those days so we closed on most of them.  The increased wage cost made it a pointless exercise.  We never opened Christmas day, as I had family to be with and wanted our team to enjoy the day with theirs; despite the fact this day would have been very profitable.

Fair enough!

I think that we need to keep in mind that the pre-Xmas, Xmas and school holiday window is highly profitable for many businesses - especially when those profits are averaged over that period...

Many businesses close down for much longer than the Xmas period (well into January), because it is too quiet to warrant staying open...

Those businesses which do stay open, always weigh up various factors before they make the choice to do so - as they are not obligated to trade...

Therefore, IM(not-so)HO, the AIG is making unnecessary enemies by raising this test case...

Equitist wrote on Nov 9^th, 2010 at 1:11pm:

Fair enough! I think that we need to keep in mind that the pre-Xmas, Xmas and school holiday window is highly profitable for many businesses - especially when those profits are averaged over that period... Many businesses close down for much longer than the Xmas period (well into January), because it is too quiet to warrant staying open... Those businesses which do stay open, always weigh up various factors before they make the choice to do so - as they are not obligated to trade... Therefore, IM(not-so)HO, the AIG is making unnecessary enemies by raising this test case...

Ever seen the rent on most commercial tenancies these days; most business can't afford to close.   A significant number of SME's operate on incredibly thin margins and would find themselves between a rock and a hard place.

I ultimately sold of the business prior to the GFC, in a rising cost world it didn't take a rocket scientist to work out that discretionary expenses would likely to be the first hit in tough times.

Equitist wrote on Nov 9^th, 2010 at 1:11pm:

Fair enough! I think that we need to keep in mind that the pre-Xmas, Xmas and school holiday window is highly profitable for many businesses - especially when those profits are averaged over that period... Many businesses close down for much longer than the Xmas period (well into January), because it is too quiet to warrant staying open... Those businesses which do stay open, always weigh up various factors before they make the choice to do so - as they are not obligated to trade... Therefore, IM(not-so)HO, the AIG is making unnecessary enemies by raising this test case...

Yes, but you need to realise that in some industries, the business has to pay penalty rates to all non-casual staff, even if the business doesn't open on that particular day, and even if the employee doesn't normally work weekends ( because Xmas day and NYS day are on saturdays)...So adding an extra public holiday will cost some businesses a considerable amount in extra penalty rates...

gizmo_2655 wrote on Nov 9^th, 2010 at 1:19pm:

Equitist wrote on Nov 9th, 2010 at 1:11pm: Fair enough! I think that we need to keep in mind that the pre-Xmas, Xmas and school holiday window is highly profitable for many businesses - especially when those profits are averaged over that period... Many businesses close down for much longer than the Xmas period (well into January), because it is too quiet to warrant staying open... Those businesses which do stay open, always weigh up various factors before they make the choice to do so - as they are not obligated to trade... Therefore, IM(not-so)HO, the AIG is making unnecessary enemies by raising this test case... Yes, but you need to realise that in some industries, the business has to pay penalty rates to all non-casual staff, even if the business doesn't open on that particular day, and even if the employee doesn't normally work weekends ( because Xmas day and NYS day are on saturdays)...So adding an extra public holiday will cost some businesses a considerable amount in extra penalty rates...

That's a fair point Gizmo.  All of my staff were casual or salaried employees so is not relevant in my case, but the additional impost would be difficult to manage for a goodly chunk of the business community.

Equitist wrote on Nov 9^th, 2010 at 12:51pm:

Verge wrote on Nov 9th, 2010 at 12:13pm: Both DNA and Nem have missed the point. We dont mind paying public holiday rates. If we want our staff to work christmas day, which they do, we dont have a problem paying them. But this year, not only do we have to pay them for Xmas day on the Saturday, we also have to pay them for Boxing Day on the Monday (which is also fine), but an EXTRA ONE on the Tuesday as well. And then we cop the same with New Years.  We have to pay the public holiday rate for the Saturday (which is fine, no problems there) but then we cop AN EXTRA DAY where we have to pay it for Monday the 3 Jan. The old way used to be if it fell on a weekend, it got moved to the nearest weekday.  This time around they kept it, and granted another two. The governments decision is going to cost us $20k in two weeks, and we have to just take it on the chin. Who is the one being draconian Nem? I dont have a problem paying public holidays, and nether does others, but when we cop two extras it damn well bloody hurts. Wow, $20K extra in holiday pay loadings in 2 weeks - that does seem a lot...until one considers the amount of revenue the business will choose to forego, if the business opts to shut down for those extra couple of days... Be honest, Verge: - Is this holiday period particularly quiet in your business - or perhaps extra busy!? Is this period generally more or less profitable for your business than the average for periods of the same length over the rest of the year!? Will your business be expected to run at a profit or at a loss, on those extra days that those penalty rates are payable!? What is the usual fortnightly turnover in your business for that holiday period that are we talking about here?

Our turnover is irrelvant to the discussion, because we wont generate any additional revenue compared to previous years when we have had to only pay for three public holidays, compared to the five of this year.

Even if we shut, we still have to pay it because thats the way the award is.

So thanks to small minded people like yourself who dont care, we are up for $20k.

They moved ANZAC day this year and didnt make us pay for it twice, so why are they making us pay for it twice with Xmas and New Year?

How happy would you be if you had to pay 100 people two extra days pay within a week even if they dont work?

Equitist wrote on Nov 9^th, 2010 at 1:11pm:

Fair enough! I think that we need to keep in mind that the pre-Xmas, Xmas and school holiday window is highly profitable for many businesses - especially when those profits are averaged over that period... Many businesses close down for much longer than the Xmas period (well into January), because it is too quiet to warrant staying open... Those businesses which do stay open, always weigh up various factors before they make the choice to do so - as they are not obligated to trade... Therefore, IM(not-so)HO, the AIG is making unnecessary enemies by raising this test case...

Its a fair test case because employers have never been faced with having to pay for two extra public holidays in my memory.

If you want to have the public holiday on the Monday, you should forgo the public holiday rates for the Saturday instead.

Thats what happened with ANZAC day this year.

Why are we paying for two extra days?

I dont mind paying public holidays, but how do you want it, as long as over the period Im only paying for three and not five

I would hate to run a business in this Country (hence why there isn't much manufacture here either).
You gotta pay all these $$ to workers who are either too influenced by the need for drink/drugs or just take sickies and then you gotta pay a lot of 'Holiday' rates, because there are a lot of public holidays and then you gotta pay all these middle-men like Employment Agencies, Super-Annuation, OH&S, Unions, etc.

No wonder this country cries out for 'Qualified/educated/etc - immigration'. ::)
Anyone who makes money in this country heads off overseas straight away.

So many of the grubby unionists are anti xtian anyway, why the holiday?  If they can`t go to a couple of church services, they should be at work.

I always say that people (like myself) who support Republicanism - shouldn't have a day off for Queens Birthday or even collect penalty rates, etc.

I hear what you guys are saying, but I remind you that: workers are also consumers - and all businesses rely upon consumers having disposable income...

Most workers spend every cent that they earn (and some, if the mortgage, credit card and consumer debt figures are anything to go by) - and therefore there is more disposable income flowing back to those sorts of businesses at that time of year anyway...

Equitist wrote on Nov 9^th, 2010 at 8:45pm:

I hear what you guys are saying, but I remind you that: workers are also consumers - and all businesses rely upon consumers having disposable income... Most workers spend every cent that they earn (and some, if the mortgage, credit card and consumer debt figures are anything to go by) - and therefore there is more disposable income flowing back to those sorts of businesses at that time of year anyway...

And that peice of garbage doesnt put 20k back into our bank account, yet our trading wont be benefited one bit.

Why is it okay for the government to impose two additional public holidays on business.

We have been screwed, because our permanents and part timers will all get two extra days pay and we get no additional benefit at all.

What ever happened to celebrating the days when the events actually fall.

How can you defend the government for imposing this extra cost with NO JUSTIFICATION at all.

Either pay the penalty rates on the day, or substitute it, but to my us pay double is unadulterated bullshit.

Equitist wrote on Nov 9^th, 2010 at 8:45pm:

I hear what you guys are saying, but I remind you that: workers are also consumers - and all businesses rely upon consumers having disposable income... Most workers spend every cent that they earn (and some, if the mortgage, credit card and consumer debt figures are anything to go by) - and therefore there is more disposable income flowing back to those sorts of businesses at that time of year anyway...

Perhaps in a perfect world.  

Perhaps for large corporate businesses this may be the case, but for small business operators not necessarily so and the significant increase in wage cost can all but wipe out the gains.  More often then not these periods simply top up the preceding low seasonal trade or prop up the following low season trade.

I could have sworn that the last few times that xmas and boxing day fell on a saturday and sunday we had a 4 day long weekend with Saturday. Monday and Tuesday paid at usual public holiday rates and the Sunday paid at normal Sunday rates (for those of us lucky enough to be paid penalty rates). That was certainly the case in 2004.

Equitist wrote on Nov 9^th, 2010 at 8:45pm:

I hear what you guys are saying, but I remind you that: workers are also consumers - and all businesses rely upon consumers having disposable income... Most workers spend every cent that they earn (and some, if the mortgage, credit card and consumer debt figures are anything to go by) - and therefore there is more disposable income flowing back to those sorts of businesses at that time of year anyway...

LOL...I made that post about 6 hours ago (before I headed out for the evening) but it is showing the time of 8:45pm...

Thanks Telstra!

I had clicked on the post button a few times and given up because the Bigpond connection was down...

I also left in haste and forgot to shut the laptop down...

Post deleted

Post deleted

In NSW the gazetted public holidays for 2010 are no different from the last few times that xmas fell on a Saturday with the Saturday, Monday and Tuesday being declared public holidays.

So what's all the fuss about?

At the end of the day not many people work on Xmas day but those who do should be paid properly.

Dnarever wrote on Nov 11^th, 2010 at 11:39pm:

At the end of the day not many people work on Xmas day but those who do should be paid properly.

Thanks DNA for adding nothing.

What part of we are happy to pay people for the Xmas day, but why do we have to pay for the Tuesday as well?

Why do you think its fair the employers have to cough up for two extra days this year?

At the end of the day, people should be paid penalty rates for ALL weekends and ALL public holidays that they work.

Quote:

Why do you think its fair the employers have to cough up for two extra days this year?

Because Christmas falls on a Saturday.
So, just like all the previous times this has occured they have made (at least they have in NSW) the following Monday and Tuesday and the monday following New Years Day public holidays. Just like what happened in 2004, 1999, 1993 etc etc.

Prior to the earlty to mid 80's it wasn't an issue for most employers because they simply weren't allowed to trade on public holidays.

Next year it will be similar with the Monday and Tuesday after Christmas and the Monday after New Years Day being public holidays. The only difference between next year and this year is that the two Sundays will be public holidays instead of the two Saturdays that we have this year.

It happens every 6 years - it's not like they've done anything different or new this year.

The whole push for the "have the public holiday on the actual day" thing is recent.

Verge wrote on Nov 12^th, 2010 at 8:41am:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 11th, 2010 at 11:39pm: At the end of the day not many people work on Xmas day but those who do should be paid properly. Thanks DNA for adding nothing. What part of we are happy to pay people for the Xmas day, but why do we have to pay for the Tuesday as well? Why do you think its fair the employers have to cough up for two extra days this year?

The reality is that when this happens if a day is cut it has in the past been the genuine holiday and the few who actually have to work that day get cut out.

When the PH is transfered to an alternate day it means that it is removed from the real one, I have been in that situatation multiple times.

I have worked on the real holiday and got no additional penalties while the people who had the real holiday off with their family got to claim PH rates for the substitute day.

The employer will be 95% out of pocket anyway as every man and his dog will work the alternate day the only people who miss out are the unfortunate ones who deserve the penaltie the most xmas day will run with a skeleton staff where necessary - the absolute minimum numbers means very little saving for the employer wanting to play scrooge.

.

Quote:

Public holidays for 2009 The NSW Government recently announced that the Boxing Day public holiday for 2009 is Monday 28 December. The following are the official NSW public holidays for the remainder of 2009: •Good Friday - Friday, 10 April 2009 •Easter Saturday - Saturday, 11 April 2009 •Easter Monday - Monday, 13 April 2009 •Anzac Day - Saturday, 25 April 2009 •Queen's Birthday - Monday, 8 June 2009 •Bank Holiday - Monday, 3 August 2009 •Labour Day - Monday, 5 October 2009 •Christmas Day - Friday, 25 December 2009 •Boxing Day - Monday, 28 December 2009

You see here that the 26 Dec last year was not a Public Holiday in NSW, People working that day did not get PH rates only people not working the PH got the pay.

2010 P/H

Quote:

New Year's Day Friday, 1 January   Australia Day Tuesday, 26 January   Good Friday Friday, 2 April Easter Saturday Saturday, 3 April   Easter Monday Monday, 5 April   Anzac Day Monday, 26 April Queen's Birthday Monday, 14 June **Bank Holiday Monday, 2 August Labour Day Monday, 4 October Christmas Day Saturday, 25 December ^Tuesday, 28 December Boxing Day Monday, 27 December

We see again in 2010 the PH for Xmas is to be added but it looks like the Boxing day Holiday again has been moved.

Anyone (i.e Me) working Boxing day this year (Sun 26th) will not be paid the correct rates.

2011 Xmas day is listed as only 26 Dec.
 

Dnarever wrote on Nov 14^th, 2010 at 8:01pm:

2010 P/H Quote: New Year's Day Friday, 1 January   Australia Day Tuesday, 26 January   Good Friday Friday, 2 April Easter Saturday Saturday, 3 April   Easter Monday Monday, 5 April   Anzac Day Monday, 26 April Queen's Birthday Monday, 14 June **Bank Holiday Monday, 2 August Labour Day Monday, 4 October Christmas Day Saturday, 25 December ^Tuesday, 28 December Boxing Day Monday, 27 December We see again in 2010 the PH for Xmas is to be added but it looks like the Boxing day Holiday again has been moved. Anyone (i.e Me) working Boxing day this year (Sun 26th) will not be paid the correct rates. 2011 Xmas day is listed as only 26 Dec.

Which was my point all along.  They moved Boxing Day but not Xmas, instead they granted an additional day.  To those of us that run 7 days a week it means we have to pay people for the Saturday even if they dont work it, as well as the Tuesday.

Notice ANZAC day was also moved, so those who worked the Sunday never got the public holiday rates either.

Its a double dip and its going to hit us hard.

Life_goes_on wrote on Nov 12^th, 2010 at 4:42pm:

Quote: Why do you think its fair the employers have to cough up for two extra days this year? Because Christmas falls on a Saturday. So, just like all the previous times this has occured they have made (at least they have in NSW) the following Monday and Tuesday and the monday following New Years Day public holidays. Just like what happened in 2004, 1999, 1993 etc etc. Prior to the earlty to mid 80's it wasn't an issue for most employers because they simply weren't allowed to trade on public holidays. Next year it will be similar with the Monday and Tuesday after Christmas and the Monday after New Years Day being public holidays. The only difference between next year and this year is that the two Sundays will be public holidays instead of the two Saturdays that we have this year. It happens every 6 years - it's not like they've done anything different or new this year. The whole push for the "have the public holiday on the actual day" thing is recent.

Strange that no-one has chosen to answer your posts, life....

The situation has been as you have stated for as long as I can remember.
I mostly noticed it in the Liquor Trades.
I also recall club Sec Mgrs and Presidents complaining about it.

:)