Do people of faith vote as their church leaders tell them ... or are they independent thinkers?


Catholic Church weighs in on state election

The Victorian Greens say they are disappointed with the Catholic Church for intervening in the state election which will be held exactly four weeks from today.

From this weekend in Victoria the Catholic Church will issue pamphlets through Catholic schools and churches listing 25 questions voters should ask candidates before deciding how to vote.

Topping the list of Catholic concerns is legalising euthanasia, abortion and same sex marriage.

Not since the 1950s has the Catholic Church intervened quite so strongly in Victorian state politics.

Catholic Archbishop Dennis Hart says he will not be voting for the Greens, who want to legalise euthanasia.

"We want people to think about what they're doing and we believe it's important for them to engage with their potential representatives, so that the people who are elected reflect the community values and community expectations," he said.

Speaking on ABC TV's Stateline program, Archbishop Hart listed euthanasia and abortion as two key issues for Catholics when it comes to deciding how they should vote at the state election.

Among their policies, the Greens in Victoria want to legalise euthanasia.

"We disagree totally with the Greens view on this issue. We believe that the value of life is so important that we can't step aside from it," Archbishop Hart said.

Senior lecturer in politics at Monash University, Dr Paul Strangio, says it does have "the slightest whiff" of what the Catholic Church did in the '50s.

"They were warning their flock against Communists and the danger of the Labor Party and its Communist tinges at that time," he said.

"The great irony here is that at that time, the battleground was often Irish Catholic electorates, which were principally in the inner city area.

"And today it seems to be much of the conservative panic, if you like, that's going on is now about the Greens and where there is a growing force in those very same areas that have undergone such a dramatic socio-demographic transformation over recent years."

According to a poll released this week, if an election was held now the Greens would receive 19 per cent of the primary vote in Melbourne.

Dr Strangio says the pamphlets will have a limited effect on inner city voters.

"According to the last census, around 25 per cent of Australians professed to be Catholics," he said.

"But if you look at those inner city electorates, the level of people professing to have no faith is disproportionally high."

Victorian Greens Senator-elect Richard Di Natale says the party is not afraid of the Catholic Church.

"We're not worried. How do you rank something like the growing gap between rich and poor and significant homelessness that exists in the state of Victoria?" he said.

"How do you rank that against an issue like the right to die with dignity?

"Now, I think many Catholics will weigh all of those things up. I think some might agree with the Archbishop, but a much bigger number will think those other things are much more important and vote accordingly."


http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/10/30/3052692.htm?section=justin

The only sheeple who vote as a block are union maggots and greens fa

aussiefree2ride wrote on Oct 30^th, 2010 at 7:38pm:

The only sheeple who vote as a block are union maggots and greens fa

not much different from all the propaganda I tend to get in my mailbox pre.election time..woody doesnt like everyone being informed of the greens policies..

So where did I say that codswal.

____ wrote on Oct 30^th, 2010 at 9:23pm:

So where did I say that codswal.

well you are whingeing about catholic schools sending home notes on greens policies.. so what else have you brought this riveting piece of news to our attention for?

Rational arguments don't usually work on religious people. Otherwise, there wouldn't be religious people.
Doris Egan, House M.D., The Right Stuff, 2007

Both major parties play the religion card.....they know how to appeal to the gullible and stupid.....this is why negative politics has such an influence on elections.....what this does is divides the Australian public instead of uniting them....something John Howard did at every election and is being carried over by Tony Abbott.....Labor did this successfully with work choices and the Coalition with boat people to name two of the obvious examples.....Australia deserves better than what we were getting at the moment.....when will our political leaders stop treating us like we are all self serving petty and stupid.....never because it is easier than telling us the truth!!!

:(

codswal wrote on Oct 30^th, 2010 at 9:32pm:

____ wrote on Oct 30th, 2010 at 9:23pm: So where did I say that codswal. well you are whingeing about catholic schools sending home notes on greens policies.. so what else have you brought this riveting piece of news to our attention for?

Where have I whinged about catholic schools sending home notes on green polices ?

All I have done is started a conversation with this thread ... anyone without issues reading this can see that.

I am asking people of religion who post here, do they vote as their religious leaders direct them, or do they vote according to their own views.

Do people of faith vote as their church leaders tell them ... or are they independent thinkers?

.........................................................

They better! The pastor/priest would be sure to construe some bible passage that relates to it.

Christians target death bill


CHRISTIANS are being urged to bombard federal politicians with emails opposing the Greens' push to overturn laws banning euthanasia in the Northern Territory and the ACT.

Amid signs Parliament could be set to quash the controversial 1997 law preventing the two territories from even debating the topic, the Australian Christian Lobby has ramped up its campaign against what it says is a Greens ''agenda of death''.

It follows debate in the Senate late last week during which MPs from both sides of politics spoke in favour of the Greens legislation. Greens leader Bob Brown said he was confident the legislation would pass, on ''territory rights'' grounds alone.
Advertisement: Story continues below

''While four of the seven senators who indicated a position favoured the bill, the three opponents relied on their opposition to euthanasia and ignored the bill's democratic imperative,'' Senator Brown said. ''I expect doctrinaire anti-euthanasia arguments, but the argument for restoring territory rights is compelling and will win out.''

The bill has a long history. In May 1995, the Northern Territory Legislative Assembly introduced legislation that came into force in July 1996 allowing a doctor, under strict circumstances, to comply with a request from a patient to end his or her life. But in September 1996, the Coalition's current families spokesman Kevin Andrews rallied support to introduce federal legislation that came into force in March 1997, removing the power of the territories to allow euthanasia.

Both major parties have signalled they will allow a conscience vote on the issue. That means MPs will be able to vote in accordance with their personal views rather than adhere to their party's official position.

But Australian Christian Lobby spokesman Lyle Shelton accused the Greens of dishonestly pushing an ''agenda of death'' by attempting to frame the debate as a territory rights issue.

Mr Shelton said efforts to introduce euthanasia laws in state parliaments during the past two years, including in Victoria, South Australia, Western Australia and Tasmania, had all been defeated.

''Having failed in all these states Bob Brown is now trying to create a mechanism where the two smallest jurisdictions in Australia could set the precedent for the nation,'' he said. ''This is not about territory rights, it is about finding a way so that the Greens can get their radical agendas a foothold in Australian society. The consequence, should it go through, is that nine people in the ACT Legislative Assembly … could be deciding whether Australia introduces euthanasia.''

The lobby - which has more than 10,000 supporters and is involved with about 5000 churches nationwide - late last week launched a campaign asking supporters to sign an online petition and send emails to politicians urging them to vote against the Greens' legislation. So far, more than 1700 letters have been sent to MPs.

It is believed Senator Brown has discussed the euthanasia bill with Northern Territory Chief Minister Paul Henderson, and has been in contact with the office of the ACT's treasurer, as its Chief Minister, Jon Stanhope, has been overseas.

So far, neither territory has given a clear indication as to whether they will reintroduce euthanasia legislation if the federal law is overturned.

Mr Henderson has said the Northern Territory should have the right to decide its laws without interference from the federal government, although voluntary euthanasia was ''not on my agenda''.

Mr Stanhope said the debate was not about the rights or wrongs of euthanasia but about the ACT's right to make its own laws.

''I'm disappointed my federal colleagues are being granted a conscience vote on democracy,'' Mr Stanhope said. ''The people of the ACT and the Northern Territory have been treated as second-class citizens.''

The issue is also set to divide the major political parties. Although he declined to comment to The Sunday Age, Liberal sources said Mr Andrews was preparing to once again play a key role rallying MPs against the Greens' legislation.

A 2009 survey of 1201 people by Newspoll commissioned by pro-euthanasia organisation Dying with Dignity found 85 per cent in favour.


http://www.theage.com.au/national/christians-target-death-bill-20101030-1789e.html

____ wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 5:53am:

codswal wrote on Oct 30th, 2010 at 9:32pm: ____ wrote on Oct 30th, 2010 at 9:23pm: So where did I say that codswal. well you are whingeing about catholic schools sending home notes on greens policies.. so what else have you brought this riveting piece of news to our attention for? Where have I whinged about catholic schools sending home notes on green polices ? All I have done is started a conversation with this thread ... anyone without issues reading this can see that. I am asking people of religion who post here, do they vote as their religious leaders direct them, or do they vote according to their own views.

might have guessed you are now famous woody for never answering a question and I thought rudd and gillard were the best.. now its ignoring your intentions..my mistake !!!!wonder why I have never ever seen a positive thread from you about the Libs..

so if I posted a thread on Browns negative ideas about lowering the age of consent for boys.. you wouldnt take that the be my opinion!!!!!!!OK.. good to know.watch my posts..lol.

I am sure you expect the few on here to know exactly how 5 million catholics will vote... its something we anglicans do a lot of recearch on.

CHRISTIANS are being urged to bombard federal politicians with emails opposing the Greens' push to overturn laws banning euthanasia in the Northern Territory and the ACT.




come to think of it woody dont recall a similar thread on GETUP when it encouraged its members to bombard rudd regarding his backing away from the ETS..one of his many backflips.. not the same thing though

codswal wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 6:46am:

____ wrote on Oct 31st, 2010 at 5:53am: codswal wrote on Oct 30th, 2010 at 9:32pm: ____ wrote on Oct 30th, 2010 at 9:23pm: So where did I say that codswal. well you are whingeing about catholic schools sending home notes on greens policies.. so what else have you brought this riveting piece of news to our attention for? Where have I whinged about catholic schools sending home notes on green polices ? All I have done is started a conversation with this thread ... anyone without issues reading this can see that. I am asking people of religion who post here, do they vote as their religious leaders direct them, or do they vote according to their own views. might have guessed you are now famous woody for never answering a question and I thought rudd and gillard were the best.. now its ignoring your intentions..my mistake !!!!wonder why I have never ever seen a positive thread from you about the Libs.. so if I posted a thread on Browns negative ideas about lowering the age of consent for boys.. you wouldnt take that the be my opinion!!!!!!!OK.. good to know.watch my posts..lol. I am sure you expect the few on here to know exactly how 5 million catholics will vote... its something we anglicans do a lot of recearch on.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1281060019


Election Time

You are in the booth and its now time to vote ... what is your decision right now.


(of course you can change views before election, yet what is your decision now)



_/_/_/


Me : Greens, preferencing Liberals



Both old parties are shockers ... yet voting for the incumbent is saying keep on lying and stuffing up.

Give the other boofhead team a go ... if they stuff up, we chuck them out in 2013.



Is that positive enough for you codswal?

Meanwhile I don't require 5 million catholics to post their view on this thread ... I have asked of the christians that post here, how are they influenced by what the bosses of their religion tell them how to vote.

Now stop trying to make this thread about me and try and keep to topic.

____ wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 7:27am:

codswal wrote on Oct 31st, 2010 at 6:46am: ____ wrote on Oct 31st, 2010 at 5:53am: codswal wrote on Oct 30th, 2010 at 9:32pm: ____ wrote on Oct 30th, 2010 at 9:23pm: So where did I say that codswal. well you are whingeing about catholic schools sending home notes on greens policies.. so what else have you brought this riveting piece of news to our attention for? Where have I whinged about catholic schools sending home notes on green polices ? All I have done is started a conversation with this thread ... anyone without issues reading this can see that. I am asking people of religion who post here, do they vote as their religious leaders direct them, or do they vote according to their own views. might have guessed you are now famous woody for never answering a question and I thought rudd and gillard were the best.. now its ignoring your intentions..my mistake !!!!wonder why I have never ever seen a positive thread from you about the Libs.. so if I posted a thread on Browns negative ideas about lowering the age of consent for boys.. you wouldnt take that the be my opinion!!!!!!!OK.. good to know.watch my posts..lol. I am sure you expect the few on here to know exactly how 5 million catholics will vote... its something we anglicans do a lot of recearch on. http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1281060019 Election Time You are in the booth and its now time to vote ... what is your decision right now. (of course you can change views before election, yet what is your decision now) _/_/_/ Me : Greens, preferencing Liberals Both old parties are shockers ... yet voting for the incumbent is saying keep on lying and stuffing up. Give the other boofhead team a go ... if they stuff up, we chuck them out in 2013. Is that positive enough for you codswal? Meanwhile I don't require 5 million catholics to post their view on this thread ... I have asked of the christians that post here, how are they influenced by what the bosses of their religion tell them how to vote. Now stop trying to make this thread about me and try and keep to topic.

xxx

oh bloody hell...where did I mention 5mill cath coming on here... you are asking DO WE THINK 5mill catholics will vote like the cardinal tells them too......YOU ARE THE ONE MAKING THIS ABOUT you>.. you have asked "where have i more" than once.. GIVE US A BREAK WOODY...YOU WILL NEVER CHANGE ALWAYS LAMBASTING THE OTHER TEAMS NEVER YOUR OWN...

my opinion on this so called topic.. HOW THE HELL WOULD I KN OW WHAT 5million CATHOLICS WILL VOTE.. it isnt in me to even care how they vote.. its all up to them..

Do people of faith vote as their church leaders tell them ... or are they independent thinkers?



That is the first line of this thread ... it is not asking a difficult question, it is asking an opinion of the posters here.

Try turning the computer off for 30 minutes ... step outside and do some deep breathing. Perhaps then you could join this discussion in a rational mind codswal.


For me, 85% in the poll mentioned above, shows some christians support giving the choice of a humane exit to those who are terminal and in pain. Also I think Territorians should be able to decide their own laws. If they are not then this sets up a form of apartheid between Australians depending on where you live.


So my opinion is religious leaders being so anti against the Greens is a bonus for the Greens since more people are now thinking about these issues prior to voting in the Victorian and New South Wales State elections.

No, they don't vote as a block. My parents are both Christian and one votes Labor and the other votes Liberal. Neither would think about voting CDP.

The Green and Independent vote will rise over this political cycle no matter how much organisations such as the Churches, unions or old boys clubs dislike the fact that the people finally have a real alternative to the 2 major parties that have turned out to be monumental self serving flops.

____ wrote on Oct 30^th, 2010 at 7:10pm:

Do people of faith vote as their church leaders tell them ... or are they independent thinkers? Catholic Church weighs in on state election The Victorian Greens say they are disappointed with the Catholic Church for intervening in the state election which will be held exactly four weeks from today. From this weekend in Victoria the Catholic Church will issue pamphlets through Catholic schools and churches listing 25 questions voters should ask candidates before deciding how to vote. Topping the list of Catholic concerns is legalising euthanasia, abortion and same sex marriage. Not since the 1950s has the Catholic Church intervened quite so strongly in Victorian state politics. Catholic Archbishop Dennis Hart says he will not be voting for the Greens, who want to legalise euthanasia. "We want people to think about what they're doing and we believe it's important for them to engage with their potential representatives, so that the people who are elected reflect the community values and community expectations," he said. Speaking on ABC TV's Stateline program, Archbishop Hart listed euthanasia and abortion as two key issues for Catholics when it comes to deciding how they should vote at the state election. Among their policies, the Greens in Victoria want to legalise euthanasia. "We disagree totally with the Greens view on this issue. We believe that the value of life is so important that we can't step aside from it," Archbishop Hart said. Senior lecturer in politics at Monash University, Dr Paul Strangio, says it does have "the slightest whiff" of what the Catholic Church did in the '50s. "They were warning their flock against Communists and the danger of the Labor Party and its Communist tinges at that time," he said. "The great irony here is that at that time, the battleground was often Irish Catholic electorates, which were principally in the inner city area. "And today it seems to be much of the conservative panic, if you like, that's going on is now about the Greens and where there is a growing force in those very same areas that have undergone such a dramatic socio-demographic transformation over recent years." According to a poll released this week, if an election was held now the Greens would receive 19 per cent of the primary vote in Melbourne. Dr Strangio says the pamphlets will have a limited effect on inner city voters. "According to the last census, around 25 per cent of Australians professed to be Catholics," he said. "But if you look at those inner city electorates, the level of people professing to have no faith is disproportionally high." Victorian Greens Senator-elect Richard Di Natale says the party is not afraid of the Catholic Church. "We're not worried. How do you rank something like the growing gap between rich and poor and significant homelessness that exists in the state of Victoria?" he said. "How do you rank that against an issue like the right to die with dignity? "Now, I think many Catholics will weigh all of those things up. I think some might agree with the Archbishop, but a much bigger number will think those other things are much more important and vote accordingly." http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/10/30/3052692.htm?section=justin

Should the Catholic church pay taxes now they have become politically active and lost there independence.....and what do people think about children being used to influence there parents through class room propaganda.....I think it is very worrying to have teachers pushing any agenda through access to our children....does anyone else have a problem with this???

>:(

The unions, who own the ALP, and will soon own the greens, are more politically active than any other entity "outside" of politics in the country.  I wouldn`t criticise anyone for political interferance if I was either a green or an alp supporter.

The unions have handicapped this country more than any other body.

aussiefree2ride wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 11:14am:

The unions, who own the ALP, and will soon own the greens, are more politically active than any other entity "outside" of politics in the country.  I wouldn`t criticise anyone for political interferance if I was either a green or an alp supporter. The unions have handicapped this country more than any other body.

And religion has not.....Unions can defend themselves Aussie....I do not belong to one and never will so I fail to see what this has to do with this debate.....deflection no doubt.....my argument is about the church pushing a political agenda through access to our children in the class room.....I am surprised you have no problem with this???

:-?

I have a problem with religion intefering in politics Phil.  However, if you look back through British history, you`ll find that our humanitarian lifestyle stems from that exact thing.

aussiefree2ride wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 11:27am:

I have a problem with religion intefering in politics Phil.  However, if you look back through British history, you`ll find that our humanitarian lifestyle stems from that exact thing.

Separation of church and State Aussie.....I have no problem with people who hold religious values as the corner stone of there life and find true Christian values to be worth preserving in our society.....but I take objection to the church pushing a POLITICAL agenda through access to our children in the class room.....I doubt very much that BOTH sides of the argument were presented in this debate that our children should not have been drawn into....ok!!!

:)

Phil,  I worked in the State School system for a while, and I know for a fact that teachers in many schools subtly push their political agendas onto students as well, so it's not confined only to christian schools.  I think it probably balances out across the entire education spectrum.

As for christians voting as a block,  I think you would find that individuals vote as their own consciences guide them.

nichy wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 11:59am:

Phil,  I worked in the State School system for a while, and I know for a fact that teachers in many schools subtly push their political agendas onto students as well, so it's not confined only to christian schools.  I think it probably balances out across the entire education spectrum. As for christians voting as a block,  I think you would find that individuals vote as their own consciences guide them.

Definitely. When we were studying the dismissal in high school, our history teacher praised Whitlam as a hero. We also had "Support the Greens" signs in our English classrooms.

nichy wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 11:59am:

Phil,  I worked in the State School system for a while, and I know for a fact that teachers in many schools subtly push their political agendas onto students as well, so it's not confined only to christian schools.  I think it probably balances out across the entire education spectrum. As for christians voting as a block,  I think you would find that individuals vote as their own consciences guide them.

Hello Nichy.....my point is that in this instance Catholic schools are directly interfering in an election and they are using access to our children to do so.....this in no way excuses left wing political agendas being pushed in State schools.....if you care to provide instances were this has happened then I will support your argument.....however churches and religious schools are tax exempt and are given government funding because of there independence from politics.....I find this trend to be very disturbing in Australian society were the church  can condemn others but cannot be criticized themselves!!!

:)

Phil,  the Catholic Church is criticised constantly -  but look at all the good work they do - hospitals, aged care, hospices, care of the disadvantaged, schools,  etc etc.    If parents send their children to church run schools they do so knowing that the church will take a stand on particular issues and will inform the parents of these issues.  No-one forces parents to send their children to these schools.

Let's face it children are being brainwashed everytime they look at a kids' program on TV with all the commercials and such, so there isn't much difference really.   Anyway the parents will do as they want no matter what literature is sent home.

nichy wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 1:13pm:

Phil,  the Catholic Church is criticised constantly -  but look at all the good work they do - hospitals, aged care, hospices, care of the disadvantaged, schools,  etc etc.    If parents send their children to church run schools they do so knowing that the church will take a stand on particular issues and will inform the parents of these issues.  No-one forces parents to send their children to these schools. Let's face it children are being brainwashed everytime they look at a kids' program on TV with all the commercials and such, so there isn't much difference really.   Anyway the parents will do as they want no matter what literature is sent home.

I think you miss my point again Nichy.....people send there children to Catholic schools for a better education knowing they will be subjected to RELIGIOUS TEACHING....political activism is completely different.....would you accept a one sided view of gay marriage being taught in public schools with letters being sent home on topic with your children.....we are talking about a political agenda here not religious teaching.....it is unacceptable in any form to use our children for political activism.....no matter what the cause!!!

:)

aussiefree2ride wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 11:14am:

The unions, who own the ALP, and will soon own the greens, are more politically active than any other entity "outside" of politics in the country.  I wouldn`t criticise anyone for political interferance if I was either a green or an alp supporter. The unions have handicapped this country more than any other body.

LOL aussie...I think it might be the greens owning the unions, rather than the other way around...

And the greens are(or will soon be) far more of a handicap than the unions ever were....

Phil I don't think I'm missing the point - perhaps I am not articulating it well enough.  Certain of the Greens policies are the opposite of  the Religious beliefs of the majority of Christian Churches .  eg. the Sixth Commandment.

nichy wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 1:42pm:

Phil I don't think I'm missing the point - perhaps I am not articulating it well enough.  Certain of the Greens policies are the opposite of  the Religious beliefs of the majority of Christian Churches .  eg. the Sixth Commandment.

The Catholic church are directly interfering in the Victorian state election through political activism in the class room.....Churches are tax exempt because they are not a political organization.....once they become publically active should there tax exempt status be removed???

I have no problem with the church arguing about social issues in the public domain and in fact support there roll in the community.....however I do not support religious schools pushing a political agenda in the class room.....the fanatical political teachings in some Madras’s comes to mind as an example of what I am talking about.....separation of church and state!!!

:)

OK Phil,  but you had better take that one up with the tax man , out of my realm -   :)

BTW it's a pleasure to "argue" the point with someone who doesn't get nasty or use personal attacks.  

Must away -  have a good day.

gizmo_2655 wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 1:30pm:

aussiefree2ride wrote on Oct 31st, 2010 at 11:14am: The unions, who own the ALP, and will soon own the greens, are more politically active than any other entity "outside" of politics in the country.  I wouldn`t criticise anyone for political interferance if I was either a green or an alp supporter. The unions have handicapped this country more than any other body. LOL aussie...I think it might be the greens owning the unions, rather than the other way around... And the greens are(or will soon be) far more of a handicap than the unions ever were....

Thing is Giz, as the greens take more of the ALP voter base, the unions will also have to jump ship, or at least infiltrate, bribe, or extort the greens to retain their political power. The unions won`t settle for just being unions in this country, too greedy and power mad.

nichy wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 1:53pm:

OK Phil,  but you had better take that one up with the tax man , out of my realm -   :) BTW it's a pleasure to "argue" the point with someone who doesn't get nasty or use personal attacks.   Must away -  have a good day.

Thank's Nicky....it has been a pleasure.....Later!!!

:)

Phil,  my reply to your last comment ON THE TOPIC is on the previous page.

nichy wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 1:56pm:

Phil,  my reply to your last comment ON THE TOPIC is on the previous page.

So is my reply.....I will put another scenario forward for you to ponder Nichy.....would you accept a teacher in a public school promoting gay marriage and sending home a letter urging parents to support the Greens in the Victorian State election......I would not by the way???

:)

Oh no doubt about you sand gropers Phil, tricky !!!!

No I wouldn't be too keen,  but I'd set my kids straight on why the teacher was wrong and suggest that the teacher stick his/her opinion where the sun doesn't shine.  :D

nichy wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 2:15pm:

Oh no doubt about you sand gropers Phil, tricky !!!! No I wouldn't be too keen,  but I'd set my kids straight on why the teacher was wrong and suggest that the teacher stick his/her opinion where the sun doesn't shine.  :D

Lol....so we can agree on something then.....good on you Nicky!!!

:)

I'm sure we can agree on a number of things phil, one being that it's not necessary to be vicious or crude  if you have an opposite opinion.

Did you hear about the two Irish fellows in the bus stop.
A truck went past loaded with rolls of lawn turf and Paddy turned to Mick and said " I'm going to do that when I win the lotto"
"Do what Paddy ? "
"Send me lawn out to be cut"

;)

philperth2010 wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 1:25pm:

nichy wrote on Oct 31st, 2010 at 1:13pm: Phil,  the Catholic Church is criticised constantly -  but look at all the good work they do - hospitals, aged care, hospices, care of the disadvantaged, schools,  etc etc.    If parents send their children to church run schools they do so knowing that the church will take a stand on particular issues and will inform the parents of these issues.  No-one forces parents to send their children to these schools. Let's face it children are being brainwashed everytime they look at a kids' program on TV with all the commercials and such, so there isn't much difference really.   Anyway the parents will do as they want no matter what literature is sent home. I think you miss my point again Nichy.....people send there children to Catholic schools for a better education knowing they will be subjected to RELIGIOUS TEACHING....political activism is completely different.....would you accept a one sided view of gay marriage being taught in public schools with letters being sent home on topic with your children.....we are talking about a political agenda here not religious teaching.....it is unacceptable in any form to use our children for political activism.....no matter what the cause!!! :)

You use the words 'political activism' inappropriately. Rather than promote a particular party they brought up a particular ISSUE. demanding that a religious group is neutered on issues is asking not only too much but ridiculously so.

Christians do not vote as a BLOC. like most people, they think about it and vote accordingly. nothing different here. Now I wait to hear all the people who DONT go to church tell me how I am wrong despite having gone to church for over 50 years.

philperth2010 wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 1:25pm:

it is unacceptable in any form to use our children for political activism.....no matter what the cause!!!

It is a damning indictment of the higher education system that Tanner, from the left faction of the ALP, admits our universities are churning out increasing numbers of Greens voters.

It is no coincidence the institutions that churn out these graduates are dominated by left-wing academics.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/why-graduates-lean-to-the-left/story-e6frg6zo-1225945325274

You use the words 'political activism' inappropriately. Rather than promote a particular party they brought up a particular ISSUE. demanding that a religious group is neutered on issues is asking not only too much but ridiculously so.


Good point longweekend -  I think that's what I was trying to say.

I pointed out earlier, a similar viewpoint to yours, that Christians vote according to  their conscience.  I've been a churchgoer all my life and I've NEVER been told HOW to vote.  

nichy wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 2:45pm:

You use the words 'political activism' inappropriately. Rather than promote a particular party they brought up a particular ISSUE. demanding that a religious group is neutered on issues is asking not only too much but ridiculously so. Good point longweekend -  I think that's what I was trying to say. I pointed out earlier, a similar viewpoint to yours, that Christians vote according to  their conscience.  I've been a churchgoer all my life and I've NEVER been told HOW to vote.

no one has ever told me either.

Soren wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 2:45pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Oct 31st, 2010 at 1:25pm: it is unacceptable in any form to use our children for political activism.....no matter what the cause!!! It is a damning indictment of the higher education system that Tanner, from the left faction of the ALP, admits our universities are churning out increasing numbers of Greens voters. It is no coincidence the institutions that churn out these graduates are dominated by left-wing academics. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/why-graduates-lean-to-the-left/story-e6frg6zo-1225945325274

I just read the article you linked to Soren.  I must admit it's no surprise to me as I was involved in STATE school education  for several years and was subjected to a lot of left wing teaching staff, who were very narrow in outlook and not prepared to see any good in anything other than their own opinions.

longweekend58 wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 2:33pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Oct 31st, 2010 at 1:25pm: nichy wrote on Oct 31st, 2010 at 1:13pm: Phil,  the Catholic Church is criticised constantly -  but look at all the good work they do - hospitals, aged care, hospices, care of the disadvantaged, schools,  etc etc.    If parents send their children to church run schools they do so knowing that the church will take a stand on particular issues and will inform the parents of these issues.  No-one forces parents to send their children to these schools. Let's face it children are being brainwashed everytime they look at a kids' program on TV with all the commercials and such, so there isn't much difference really.   Anyway the parents will do as they want no matter what literature is sent home. I think you miss my point again Nichy.....people send there children to Catholic schools for a better education knowing they will be subjected to RELIGIOUS TEACHING....political activism is completely different.....would you accept a one sided view of gay marriage being taught in public schools with letters being sent home on topic with your children.....we are talking about a political agenda here not religious teaching.....it is unacceptable in any form to use our children for political activism.....no matter what the cause!!! :) You use the words 'political activism' inappropriately. Rather than promote a particular party they brought up a particular ISSUE. demanding that a religious group is neutered on issues is asking not only too much but ridiculously so.

Rubbish....the school is urging parents not to support the Greens and Labor.....and I have demanded no such thing....what I have said is I do not support promoting a political agenda through the class room...an issue you conveniently failed to address.....I stated earlier that I support churches promoting social issues in the public forum were there views and opinions can be challenged.....I do not support one side of view being promoted in the class room....by the way Longy I do not support euthanasia....this is not about religion it is about politics and interference in a State election....I would condemn such actions no matter what faith promoted political activism in the class room!!!

So in your opinion it would be ok if a school promoted gay marriage and sent home a letter urging parents to support the Greens Longy....after all if we accept religious schools have the right to promote a particular agenda then we must accept that schools are allowed to promote there political leanings in every case...agreed???

:)

nichy wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 2:45pm:

You use the words 'political activism' inappropriately. Rather than promote a particular party they brought up a particular ISSUE. demanding that a religious group is neutered on issues is asking not only too much but ridiculously so. Good point longweekend -  I think that's what I was trying to say. I pointed out earlier, a similar viewpoint to yours, that Christians vote according to  their conscience.  I've been a churchgoer all my life and I've NEVER been told HOW to vote.

Fair enough...but the Catholic Church in Victoria is doing just that.....urging parents to vote in a particular way because they do not agree with a particular policy.....I have no problem with the church arguing there point in a public forum were their views can be challenged....but I am not going to support a one sided view being pushed onto our children...weather I agree with it or not....I am surprised you cannot see the problem with this Longy.....do you support the political teachings in Madras's Nichy???

;)

longweekend58 wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 2:35pm:

Christians do not vote as a BLOC. like most people, they think about it and vote accordingly. nothing different here. Now I wait to hear all the people who DONT go to church tell me how I am wrong despite having gone to church for over 50 years.

On this issue I think we can agree Longy.....my mother is a devout Catholic and she votes for Labor religiously......and judging by the comments from the people on these boards I think we must accept that we all vote a particular way based on many issues not just religion!!!

:)

so woody what conclusions have you come too?????..do they vote as a block or dont they???

philperth2010 wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 3:54pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Oct 31st, 2010 at 2:35pm: Christians do not vote as a BLOC. like most people, they think about it and vote accordingly. nothing different here. Now I wait to hear all the people who DONT go to church tell me how I am wrong despite having gone to church for over 50 years. On this issue I think we can agree Longy.....my mother is a devout Catholic and she votes for Labor religiously......and judging by the comments from the people on these boards I think we must accept that we all vote a particular way based on many issues not just religion!!! :)

You might be correct in saying that more vote conservatively than labor but the opposite is true in other groups (eg unions).

as usual, woody is wrong. even the catholics arent telling people not to vote labor or greens but giving their people a list of questions an policies to consider.

Quote:

woody is wrong

I don't even read his posts tbh. There's nothing anybody can extract from them that is worthwhile.


Quote:

Definitely. When we were studying the dismissal in high school, our history teacher praised Whitlam as a hero. We also had "Support the Greens" signs in our English classrooms.

We had a lot of f*ggotry like this in my school too, man, so I feel your pain. I remember our class being lectured on Nelson Mandela being the best political leader of the 20th century (though no reason was actually given for why this is true).

One view ...




Tax-Exempt Pædophiles tell Victorians how to Vote
October 31, 2010

The Victorian Greens say they are disappointed with the Catholic Church for intervening in the state election which will be held exactly four weeks from today.

Yes, the RCC, the tax-exempt parasitic priestly pædophiles in palaces will issue pamphlets through Catholic schools and churches listing 25 questions voters should ask candidates before deciding how to vote. (Printed using our taxes)

Senior lecturer in politics at Monash University, Dr Paul Strangio, says it does have “the slightest whiff” of what the Catholic Church did in the ’50s.

“They were warning their flock against Communists and the danger of the Labor Party and its Communist tinges at that time,” he said.

“The great irony here is that at that time, the battleground was often Irish Catholic electorates, which were principally in the inner city area.

“And today it seems to be much of the conservative panic, if you like, that’s going on is now about the Greens and where there is a growing force in those very same areas that have undergone such a dramatic socio-demographic transformation over recent years.”

Desperate times for those guilty of crimes against humanity.


- Rev. Michael Gray

http://www.antitheistdaily.com/2010/10/31/tax-exempt-p%C3%A6dophiles-tell-victorians-how-to-vote/




On a less humorous note, have there been any leaks so far on the conent of this exclusive document - an the details of these "25 questions" ?

if one elects euthanasia they go to hell as for poofs they also go too hell.

longweekend58 wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 5:19pm:

philperth2010 wrote on Oct 31st, 2010 at 3:54pm: longweekend58 wrote on Oct 31st, 2010 at 2:35pm: Christians do not vote as a BLOC. like most people, they think about it and vote accordingly. nothing different here. Now I wait to hear all the people who DONT go to church tell me how I am wrong despite having gone to church for over 50 years. On this issue I think we can agree Longy.....my mother is a devout Catholic and she votes for Labor religiously......and judging by the comments from the people on these boards I think we must accept that we all vote a particular way based on many issues not just religion!!! :) You might be correct in saying that more vote conservatively than labor but the opposite is true in other groups (eg unions). as usual, woody is wrong. even the catholics arent telling people not to vote labor or greens but giving their people a list of questions an policies to consider.

Like to point out where you are quoting me from long?

BlOoDy RiPpEr wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 6:26pm:

if one elects euthanasia they go to hell as for poofs they also go too hell.

then obvious hell rocks !

codswal wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 4:36pm:

so woody what conclusions have you come too?????..do they vote as a block or dont they???

yes and no

buzzanddidj wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 5:49pm:

One view ... On a less humorous note, have there been any leaks so far on the conent of this exclusive document - an the details of these "25 questions" ?

It doesn't need to be "leaked" as it's a PUBLISHED document :

http://www.cam.org.au/stateelection


Perhaps you would like to point out exactly where it is TELLING anyone how to vote.

"As bishops we are not advocating any political party. That is not our role. We do however raise some issues and questions which you may wish to address to the candidates for election in helping inform your decision on whom to vote for."


"CONCLUSION

We urge each voter to vote consistent with their own values, so that these will be represented in the parliamentary representatives we elect."

philperth2010 wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 11:48am:

aussiefree2ride wrote on Oct 31st, 2010 at 11:27am: I have a problem with religion intefering in politics Phil.  However, if you look back through British history, you`ll find that our humanitarian lifestyle stems from that exact thing. Separation of church and State Aussie.....I have no problem with people who hold religious values as the corner stone of there life and find true Christian values to be worth preserving in our society.....but I take objection to the church pushing a POLITICAL agenda through access to our children in the class room.....I doubt very much that BOTH sides of the argument were presented in this debate that our children should not have been drawn into....ok!!! :)

Children have been the subject of propaganda in education since it went main stream.  Teachers and the education system will push any manner of agenda.

http://www.cam.org.au/stateelection



Where, in this document, is the propaganda ?

nichy wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 8:22pm:

http://www.cam.org.au/stateelection Where, in this document, is the propaganda ?

Thanks' for the link Nicky.....after reading what is in the document I have no issue with the church and the way the questions are presented.....the fact that the document was made public helps to stop speculation and fear mongering.....now if you had posted a link earlier we could have saved ourselves a lot of time.....cheerz!!!

:)

If there were no God, there would be no Atheists.
G. K. Chesterton (1874 - 1936)

I am an agnostic by the way!!!

:D

nichy wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 8:10pm:

buzzanddidj wrote on Oct 31st, 2010 at 5:49pm: One view ... On a less humorous note, have there been any leaks so far on the conent of this exclusive document - an the details of these "25 questions" ? It doesn't need to be "leaked" as it's a PUBLISHED document : http://www.cam.org.au/stateelection Perhaps you would like to point out exactly where it is TELLING anyone how to vote. "As bishops we are not advocating any political party. That is not our role. We do however raise some issues and questions which you may wish to address to the candidates for election in helping inform your decision on whom to vote for." "CONCLUSION We urge each voter to vote consistent with their own values, so that these will be represented in the parliamentary representatives we elect."

Perhaps more of a "serving suggestion" than threatening directive

But a "You're either WITH us - or you're AGAINST us" declaration from these four Catholic office bearers, all the same

There was an insidious political agenda involved - otherwise the propaganda document would never have been produced in the first instance...

Frankly, I am surprised that anyone is seriously arguing that it was created for apolitical purposes...

Equitist wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 10:17pm:

There was an insidious political agenda involved - otherwise the propaganda document would never have been produced in the first instance... Frankly, I am surprised that anyone is seriously arguing that it was created for apolitical purposes...

I think the whole issue is a non event.....I doubt that this will have much influence on the Victorian election!!!

:)

philperth2010 wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 10:39pm:

Equitist wrote on Oct 31st, 2010 at 10:17pm: There was an insidious political agenda involved - otherwise the propaganda document would never have been produced in the first instance... Frankly, I am surprised that anyone is seriously arguing that it was created for apolitical purposes... I think the whole issue is a non event.....I doubt that this will have much influence on the Victorian election!!! :)

If anything, could help the Greens.


As this could too :

Outcry at Greens smear


STATE Labor has stepped up its campaign against the surging Greens, targeting the party's candidate for Melbourne, prominent barrister Brian Walters, and seeking to smear him as anti-Semitic and an unscrupulous lawyer.

Senior Labor figures including former Victorian secretary Stephen Newnham have contacted influential members of the Jewish community seeking to generate a political backlash against the Greens, and Mr Walters in particular.

The Age has obtained a dossier of documents used as part of the dirt campaign that focus on Mr Walters's representation of alleged Nazi war criminal Konrads Kalejs in the early 2000s.
Advertisement: Story continues below

In a Sunday Herald Sun front page story yesterday the member for Melbourne and Education Minister, Bronwyn Pike, described Mr Walters as a ''hypocrite'' for representing a brown-coal mining company while as a Green criticising coal-fired power.

ALP secretary Nick Reece also criticised Mr Walters for seeking ''profit'' from a coalmining company.

Labor's preoccupation with the Greens has coincided with Herald Sun proprietor Rupert Murdoch last week publicly declaring his opposition to the party that opinion polls suggest could poll between 15 and 20 per cent of the vote across the state on November 27.

But Labor's campaign is at risk of backfiring with prominent members of the legal profession yesterday condemning the attacks on Mr Walters, and senior Jewish community figures also expressing concern at Labor's tactics.

Some of Victoria's most senior barristers attacked suggestions that lawyers could be criticised for the behaviour of the clients they represented. They said the long-standing ''cab-rank'' rule required barristers to accept briefs irrespective of their views about clients or cases.

Robert Richter, both Jewish and a high-profile QC, defended Walters as an ''ethical barrister''. ''The attack on him is completely shameful or rather shameless, and discloses not just an ignorance of the working of our legal system but a betrayal of any sense of proper legal ethics.''

Prominent human rights activist Julian Burnside, QC, slammed Labor's tactics as a ''disgrace''. ''I can only say that I am astonished at the ignorance (or hypocrisy) of the Herald Sun, Bronwyn Pike and Nick Reece.

''The cab-rank rule is fundamental to the independent bar. It exists to protect the community by ensuring that even unpopular clients can get representation in court.

''There are plenty of lawyers in the Labor Party. It is a shame to see the Labor campaign stoop so low as to mount a personal attack which, as they well know, has no foundation at all.''

more here :

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/state-election-2010/outcry-at-greens-smear-20101031-178w6.html

The article has been removed. Barristers and the Jewish groups are not as influential as Murdoch and Labor by the looks of it, but the smear campaign could certainly backfire. Labor is fast losing any credibility in the competency and honesty stakes.

They are getting very worried about the Green explosion. Many of the Greens candidates are professional people and still have to do their job to survive.

Or perhaps the Greens haven't preferenced the ALP in Victoria.

I don't like the thought of anyone defending a brown coal-mining company, but as stated in the article - the long-standing ''cab-rank'' rule required barristers to accept briefs irrespective of their views about clients or cases.

____ wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 7:32pm:

codswal wrote on Oct 31st, 2010 at 4:36pm: so woody what conclusions have you come too?????..do they vote as a block or dont they??? yes and no

so typical of a greenie.. never get an answer... grrrrrrrrrroan

____ wrote on Nov 1^st, 2010 at 2:48am:

philperth2010 wrote on Oct 31st, 2010 at 10:39pm: Equitist wrote on Oct 31st, 2010 at 10:17pm: There was an insidious political agenda involved - otherwise the propaganda document would never have been produced in the first instance... Frankly, I am surprised that anyone is seriously arguing that it was created for apolitical purposes... I think the whole issue is a non event.....I doubt that this will have much influence on the Victorian election!!! :) If anything, could help the Greens. As this could too : Outcry at Greens smear STATE Labor has stepped up its campaign against the surging Greens, targeting the party's candidate for Melbourne, prominent barrister Brian Walters, and seeking to smear him as anti-Semitic and an unscrupulous lawyer. Senior Labor figures including former Victorian secretary Stephen Newnham have contacted influential members of the Jewish community seeking to generate a political backlash against the Greens, and Mr Walters in particular. The Age has obtained a dossier of documents used as part of the dirt campaign that focus on Mr Walters's representation of alleged Nazi war criminal Konrads Kalejs in the early 2000s. Advertisement: Story continues below In a Sunday Herald Sun front page story yesterday the member for Melbourne and Education Minister, Bronwyn Pike, described Mr Walters as a ''hypocrite'' for representing a brown-coal mining company while as a Green criticising coal-fired power. ALP secretary Nick Reece also criticised Mr Walters for seeking ''profit'' from a coalmining company. Labor's preoccupation with the Greens has coincided with Herald Sun proprietor Rupert Murdoch last week publicly declaring his opposition to the party that opinion polls suggest could poll between 15 and 20 per cent of the vote across the state on November 27. But Labor's campaign is at risk of backfiring with prominent members of the legal profession yesterday condemning the attacks on Mr Walters, and senior Jewish community figures also expressing concern at Labor's tactics. Some of Victoria's most senior barristers attacked suggestions that lawyers could be criticised for the behaviour of the clients they represented. They said the long-standing ''cab-rank'' rule required barristers to accept briefs irrespective of their views about clients or cases. Robert Richter, both Jewish and a high-profile QC, defended Walters as an ''ethical barrister''. ''The attack on him is completely shameful or rather shameless, and discloses not just an ignorance of the working of our legal system but a betrayal of any sense of proper legal ethics.'' Prominent human rights activist Julian Burnside, QC, slammed Labor's tactics as a ''disgrace''. ''I can only say that I am astonished at the ignorance (or hypocrisy) of the Herald Sun, Bronwyn Pike and Nick Reece. ''The cab-rank rule is fundamental to the independent bar. It exists to protect the community by ensuring that even unpopular clients can get representation in court. ''There are plenty of lawyers in the Labor Party. It is a shame to see the Labor campaign stoop so low as to mount a personal attack which, as they well know, has no foundation at all.'' more here : http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/state-election-2010/outcry-at-greens-smear-20101031-178w6.html

Sounds like both major parties are running scared of the Greens.....It is about time we had a left leaning voice becoming prominant in Australian politics.....both major right wing parties are starting to piss me off!!!

>:(

codswal wrote on Nov 1^st, 2010 at 6:47am:

____ wrote on Oct 31st, 2010 at 7:32pm: codswal wrote on Oct 31st, 2010 at 4:36pm: so woody what conclusions have you come too?????..do they vote as a block or dont they??? yes and no so typical of a greenie.. never get an answer... grrrrrrrrrroan

So typical of a whiny old biddy, grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrroan.

philperth2010 wrote on Nov 1^st, 2010 at 7:21am:

Sounds like both major parties are running scared of the Greens.....It is about time we had a left leaning voice becoming prominant in Australian politics.....both major right wing parties are starting to piss me off!!! >:(

Ditto!

>:(

Check this site out: -

http://www.ceocg.catholic.edu.au/publications/election2010/catholic_funding.jpg

http://www.ceocg.catholic.edu.au/publications/election2010/index.htm


Quote:

federal funding campaign 2010 The Federal Election this year will be crucial for Catholic education in securing funding for the future. On this page you will find information to assist with understanding the important issues associated with education funding and documents which can be used in speaking with school communities and election candidates. Education cuts may leave disadvantaged students in Catholic schools vulnerable The Chair of the National Catholic Education Commission (NCEC), Therese Temby, today expressed concern at the proposal of the Coalition to cut $330 million from disadvantaged Catholic schools across Australia. Read more Electorate Information Packs These contain a profile of the electorate; a list of registered candidates; a map of each electorate in the diocese and the 2007 Election results Canberra Election Pack Eden Monaro Election Pack Fraser Election Pack Hume Election Pack Parkes Election Pack Riverina Election Pack Catholic Schools Funding 2010 for School Communities Catholic School Funding 2010 for School Communities Download here the copy of the powerpoint used at the July Regional Election Information Evenings. Election Campaign Newsletter Snippets Newsletter Snippets to be inserted into school newsletters during the election campaign. Read more Catholic Education in the ACT 2010 Catholic Education in the ACT 2010 This one page flyer outlines facts on ACT education and funding of ACT Catholic schools. NCEC Election Documents Website The National Catholic Education Commission has issued a number of documents relating to funding and has sought commitments from political parties. Funding Principles for Catholic Schools Funding Principles for Catholic Schools Insight Catholic Education in 2010 Insight Flyer Sustaining Catholic Education in Australia into the Future Election 2010 commitments sought from political parties Labor and Liberal responses to the commitments sought by the NCEC Labor and Liberal/National Coalition responses to the commitments sought by the NCEC The Australian Greens Policy on Education Catholic Schools The Australian Greens Policy on Education - Catholic Schools CCSP Funding on Catholic Schools The Council of Catholic Schools Parents has provided very informative and useful material; The Facts of Funding Catholic Schools. Information and charts relating to the funding of NSW Catholic Schools can be found here. Visit the CCSP Resource Materials webpage for more information.

Equitist wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 10:17pm:

There was an insidious political agenda involved - otherwise the propaganda document would never have been produced in the first instance... Frankly, I am surprised that anyone is seriously arguing that it was created for apolitical purposes...

nem I think you have missed your calling...you should be writing gi
llards speeches especially the ones where she talks for hours and says nothing..

Crikey, check this out (all 16 carefully-targeted-propaganda pages of it): -

http://www2.ceosale.catholic.edu.au/uploadedFiles/07_News_Centre/News_Items/CEOSale_state_funding_package_final.doc


I am attempting to attach it in .txt format - not sure what will happen - meantime here's some of the text: -


Quote:

Victorian Catholic Schools       Funding Information Package CONTENTS All pages listed below have been set up in Word format to enable you to copy and paste the text as required. 1      Material for Newsletter insert 2      Parish Priest/Principal Letters Package      a      Parish Priest/Principal Invitation Letter to local State MP Determine whether your local MP is a Labor, Liberal or National Party member and select the appropriate letter text. i. Labor MP OR ii. Liberal and Nationals MP      b      Parish Priest/Principal Letter to Premier John Brumby MP AND      c      Parish Priest/Principal Letter to Education Minister Bronwyn Pike MP      d      Parish Priest/Principal Letter to Ted Baillieu MP, Leader of the Opposition AND      e      Parish Priest/Principal Letter to Martin Dixon MP, Shadow Minister for Education 3      Parent Letters Package      This information could be included in your school newsletter with copies of the two sample letters. Parents could be advised to determine whether their local MP is a Labor, Liberal or National party member and select the appropriate letter text.      a      Parent Letter to local MPs i. Labor MP OR ii. Liberal and Nationals MP 4      Sample School Media Release 5      Background sheet – Questions and Answers      These Q&As could also be included in your school newsletter. 1.      Material for Newsletter insert The state election is now just months away. This is an important opportunity for Catholic education to raise the issue of fair and sustainable state government funding for Catholic schools. For many years Victorian Catholic schools have received the lowest level of state government funding of any state in Australia. As a result, for each dollar of Australian and state government funding going to a student in a Victorian government school a student in a Catholic school receives just 63 cents. We are asking that state funding to Catholic schools be transparently linked to 25% of the cost of education in a Victorian government school. This will ensure a sustainable funding base. The Liberal-National Coalition has committed to funding Catholic schools at this level if they are elected. The Government has informed us that the proposal is under active consideration. I encourage you to write to your local MP to emphasise the importance of this issue. 2. Parish Priest / Principal Letters Package As a Parish Priest or Catholic school principal a letter to your local state MP and our state-wide political leaders can have significant influence. I suggest that you write to the Members of Parliament listed below to raise the issue of sustainable funding for Catholic schools. I have provided sample letters for your use. If we are successful in our funding request this year, we believe we will not need to mount further campaigns on state funding. I suggest that you prioritise letters according to the following list: •      A letter to your local state MP inviting them to meet with you and other school representatives to discuss sustainable funding •      A letter to each of the following: o      Premier John Brumby o      Education Minister Bronwyn Pike o      Opposition Leader Ted Baillieu o      Shadow Education Minister Martin Dixon •      Letters to your five upper house MPs covering your region •      A letter to local lower house candidates (help is available to identify these). A sample for each of these letters is contained in the following pages. Some of the sample letters are very similar or near identical except for the addresses. Each sample is intended to make it as easy as possible to convey the message to our political leaders. For your convenience the contact details for your local state MP and your upper house MPs is available on CEOSale website. You will note there is a different letter for your local state member depending on whether they are a member of the Labor Party or the Liberal/Nationals. The differences in wording reflect the different policy positions which have currently been stated by the relevant parties. I have highlighted sections in some letters in bold and italics where you may choose to provide detail relevant to your school. I have also attached a Parent Letters Package that you may wish to pass to your parent community to assist them to write to their local state MP. If you require further assistance or advice in relation to this material please contact me at the Office on (03) 5622 6600 or via <director@ceosale.catholic.edu.au>. Yours sincerely Peter Ryan Director of Catholic Education Diocese of Sale [...]

Nothing remotely political or partisan in all of that, eh!?

---

"The state election is now just months away. This is an important opportunity for Catholic education to raise the issue of fair and sustainable state government funding for Catholic schools. For many years Victorian Catholic schools have received the lowest level of state government funding of any state in Australia. As a result, for each dollar of Australian and state government funding going to a student in a Victorian government school a student in a Catholic school receives just 63 cents.We are asking that state funding to Catholic schools be transparently linked to 25% of the cost of education in a Victorian government school. This will ensure a sustainable funding base. The Liberal-National Coalition has committed to funding Catholic schools at this level if they are elected. The Government has informed us that the proposal is under active consideration. I encourage you to write to your local MP to emphasise the importance of this issue."





So are you saying that the children in Parish Schools,  whose parents pay tax, are not entitled to a fair share of the tax dollar allocated to Education.  Perhaps you would like to see them all closed down and the State schools jammed well past their capacity.  

nichy wrote on Nov 1^st, 2010 at 8:05am:

"The state election is now just months away. This is an important opportunity for Catholic education to raise the issue of fair and sustainable state government funding for Catholic schools. For many years Victorian Catholic schools have received the lowest level of state government funding of any state in Australia. As a result, for each dollar of Australian and state government funding going to a student in a Victorian government school a student in a Catholic school receives just 63 cents.We are asking that state funding to Catholic schools be transparently linked to 25% of the cost of education in a Victorian government school. This will ensure a sustainable funding base. The Liberal-National Coalition has committed to funding Catholic schools at this level if they are elected. The Government has informed us that the proposal is under active consideration. I encourage you to write to your local MP to emphasise the importance of this issue." So are you saying that the children in Parish Schools,  whose parents pay tax, are not entitled to a fair share of the tax dollar allocated to Education.  Perhaps you would like to see them all closed down and the State schools jammed well past their capacity.

Nope, not gonna happen, Nichy!

Most parents send their kids to religious schools for dogmatic and/or elitist reasons - just as most parents of other private schools do...

Statistically, even totally removing public funding of effectively-exclusive pseudo-private schools would have very little impact upon the numbers of students in each sector - but it would free up scarce funds for the education of under-privileged and ordinary public school students alike...

HORSES FOR COURSES !

-----------


HELP GET THIS AD ON AIR


Our new TV ads have begun screening across Australia, but additional newspaper and online advertising spots are booking fast.

Thanks to your enthusiasm and support, the Greens campaign is gaining momentum and we remain steady in the polls. But we are expecting the attacks to start any day now, so it’s more important than ever that we reach as many Australians as possible with the positive message in our new ads.

We reached our first target of $50,000 in 12 hours!  Then our media buyer told us if we could get to $100,000, we would be able purchase even more space.  Supporters like you came to the party, and together, we have been able to book a variety of media spaces, including:

additional spots on free-to-air and pay TV in prime time
full page ads in major weekend newspapers.
Because of supporters like you—and Sarah from NSW, who donated $25, Mark from VIC who donated $50 and Jillian from WA, who donated $10—we have secured more media space to boost our existing national TV and print advertising campaign, allowing us to get a positive Green message out there.

Now we are turning our attention to buying more on-line ads.  A positive Green message accompanying an on-line news article?  We've purchased some, but with your help, we can purchase more.

Your contribution of $10, $20, $50 or even $100 before Sunday can help us book more online advertising

https://greens.org.au/civicrm/contribute/transact?reset=1&id=59

nichy wrote on Nov 1^st, 2010 at 8:05am:

So are you saying that the children in Parish Schools,  whose parents pay tax, are not entitled to a fair share of the tax dollar allocated to Education.  Perhaps you would like to see them all closed down and the State schools jammed well past their capacity.

If Victoria fails to meet the usual 25% funding to Independent schools - Federal funding more than compensates for it.

Most parents send their kids to religious schools for dogmatic and/or elitist reasons - just as most parents of other private schools do...Equitist.


Total Crap equitist.

Ooops, sorry, you know better, I forgot !

http://www2.ceosale.catholic.edu.au/uploadedFiles/07_News_Centre/News_Items/64-10%20State%20Funding%20Campaign%20for%20Schools%20(3).doc

http://www2.ceosale.catholic.edu.au/_sharedimg/logo.gif

15 July, 2010                                                                  64-10

CIRCULAR TO ALL PRIMARY AND SECONDARY PRINCIPALS – DIOCESE OF SALE


Dear Colleague


Re            State Funding Campaign for Catholic Schools


MAIN POINTS

•      With the state election due on 27 November 2010 the coming months will be an important time
for Victorian Catholic schools.
•      Last year the efforts of many parish priests, principals and school communities were
instrumental in concluding the state funding agreement on favourable terms for Catholic
education. The additional funding allocated through the agreement was a step towards our
funding goal but it did not guarantee a sustainable funding base for Catholic education in Victoria.
•      Since signing the agreement we have been in discussions to secure funding for Catholic
schools at 25% of the cost of education in a Victorian government school. We estimate this would deliver an extra $60 million per annum to Catholic education.
•      Over the last few months many of you have indicated your interest in raising state funding
issues with your school communities. The Minister has advised that the matter is under active consideration.
•      In order to assist with the government's deliberations I believe it is now appropriate to inform
school communities and our political leaders of the importance of sustainable state funding for Catholic schools. As you will be aware the Liberal-Nationals Coalition has committed to fund
Catholic schools at 25% of the cost of education in a Victorian government school if elected in November.


ACTIONS REQUIRED

Please find attached a selection of materials to assist you in raising this issue with your school
community. The materials include:

1. Text you may wish to insert in your school newsletter to highlight the issue of sustainable funding to parents.
2. Letters you may wish to send to your local state MPs and the leaders of the Labor and
Liberal parties, along with a link to their contact details.
3. A letter you may wish to make available to your parents to send to their local state MPs.
4. A media release you may wish to tailor to your own needs and release to your local media
when appropriate, perhaps after a visit from your local MP.
5. A question and answer sheet that may be useful in general communications with MPs,


CONTACT/ENQUIRIES

•      A full list of Victorian State Parliament representatives is available on our website.
•      We will provide additional information in the coming weeks. If you require further assistance or
advice in relation to this material please contact me at this Office on (03) 5622 6600 or via <director@ceosale.catholic.edu.au>.
•      Thank you for your continued commitment to Catholic education. By working together I am
confident that we can guarantee sustainable state funding for Catholic education.

DIRECTOR OF CATHOLIC EDUCATION

Do Christians vote in a block?

No less than Muslims, Jews, Hindus etc.
It's called secular voting, has been happening since dot.

:)

HORSES FOR COURSES !

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BTW equitist,  you don't really need to take up so much space -  most of us are capable of following A LINK.

nichy wrote on Nov 1^st, 2010 at 8:17am:

Most parents send their kids to religious schools for dogmatic and/or elitist reasons - just as most parents of other private schools do...Equitist. Total Crap equitist. Ooops, sorry, you know better, I forgot !

OK, Nichy et al, here's your chance to explain the reasons why parents choose to send their children to Catholic and other independent/private schools...

Go for it!

nichy wrote on Nov 1^st, 2010 at 8:21am:

BTW equitist,  you don't really need to take up so much space -  most of us are capable of following A LINK.

Just trying to put some of the relevant information here so that we all know the nature of the propaganda material we are discussing...

My parents chose to send me to Catholic schools (even though we aren't catholic) for educational purposes, they believed our local Catholic schools were better than our local public schools.

:)
.....Our local public schools being under-resourced and quite rough in the neighbourhood I grew up in.

So...

They always said that if we had have resided in an area where the local public school was decent, then I would have gone to a public school.

I have sent my own children to both public and private schools, though in the area we live, we find the local public schools on par with the local private schools, so there's no point going private here where we live.

:)

This is pretty specific targetting of election propaganda, wouldn't you agree!?

http://www.ceocg.catholic.edu.au/publications/election2010/index.htm

---

And what about Gillard funding Jewish schools , this and announcing she would continue the 'outrageous' Jewish schools funding arrangement Rudd had in place until 2014 if elected?

Ie Vote for GALP and we will keep funding you!!

And likewise, Jewish groups were encouraging their 'parishioners' to vote ALP, one rabbi even went so far as to ostracise one Jewish student who rebelled and advised members of his own online Jewish community to vote liberal instead.




Look, it happens across all sects, not just Christians,Catholics.

OK.

::) It's nothing new!

mellie wrote on Nov 1^st, 2010 at 8:41am:

And what about Gillard funding Jewish schools , this and announcing she would continue the 'outrageous' Jewish schools funding arrangement Rudd had in place until 2014 if elected? Ie Vote for GALP and we will keep funding you!! And likewise, Jewish groups were encouraging their 'parishioners' to vote ALP, one rabbi even went so far as to ostracise one Jewish student who rebelled and advised members of his own online Jewish community to vote liberal instead. Look, it happens across all sects, not just Christians,Catholics. OK. ::) It's nothing new!

And the obnoxious little anti Semite is at it again.
One question little Ms anti Semite, did the coal ition fund Jewish schools? just a yes or no will suffice, we don't need to hear anymore of your anti Semite rants. ::)

Equitist wrote on Nov 1^st, 2010 at 8:22am:

nichy wrote on Nov 1st, 2010 at 8:17am: Most parents send their kids to religious schools for dogmatic and/or elitist reasons - just as most parents of other private schools do...Equitist. Total Crap equitist. Ooops, sorry, you know better, I forgot ! OK, Nichy et al, here's your chance to explain the reasons why parents choose to send their children to Catholic and other independent/private schools... Go for it!

what the hell has it got to do with YOU why people send their kids to religious schools,you may change your clothes once a week..whats it got to do with anybody are we not allowed any freedom of choice in this country anymore...just because we have 99% Labor governing us doesnt mean we all have to think alike like the ALP.. for gods sake..do we all drive green holdens... sheeeeeeeeeeze


to find out the answer to this topic you would have to stand over every voting box in the country like they do in Afghanistan..

maybe bring back the yellow armbands.

why do people speak for MOST others is another mystery. our freedom of choice is being eroded  

http://muslimvillage.com/2010/05/30/nsw-islamic-schools-policy-statement/

"Islamic schools acknowledge that as fee charging schools who are recipients of government funding , independent schools must be  accountable for the education that they provide. "

http://www.independentschools.vic.edu.au/

"Non-government schools enrolled more than a third of Victoria’s students in 2007-08 but received just over one fifth of government funding. Increasing Victorian Government funding for Independent school students to match the average of other states and territories would cost about $512 per student – less than one twentieth of the government funding provided to government school students.Independent schools are continuing to fall financially behind the government sector because state government recurrent funding is not sufficiently indexed to keep up with the cost of education."

It should also be understood that the federal and state governments have a limited fiscal capacity to enrol at least an additional 30 per cent of currently enrolled students into the government school system.

Cost-effective public funding to non-government schools ensure that the taxpaying public are better off, as students in Catholic and independent schools alleviate the fiscal pressure off states and the Commonwealth to fund the same students in expensive government schools.The continuing funding uncertainty in Australian school education partly reflects a lack of appreciation of the significant contribution that non-government schools play in helping to ensure that this country maintains a world class standard of education.

buzzanddidj wrote on Oct 31^st, 2010 at 9:29pm:

nichy wrote on Oct 31st, 2010 at 8:10pm: buzzanddidj wrote on Oct 31st, 2010 at 5:49pm: One view ... On a less humorous note, have there been any leaks so far on the conent of this exclusive document - an the details of these "25 questions" ? It doesn't need to be "leaked" as it's a PUBLISHED document : http://www.cam.org.au/stateelection Perhaps you would like to point out exactly where it is TELLING anyone how to vote. "As bishops we are not advocating any political party. That is not our role. We do however raise some issues and questions which you may wish to address to the candidates for election in helping inform your decision on whom to vote for." "CONCLUSION We urge each voter to vote consistent with their own values, so that these will be represented in the parliamentary representatives we elect." Perhaps more of a "serving suggestion" than threatening directive But a "You're either WITH us - or you're AGAINST us" declaration from these four Catholic office bearers, all the same

yet nothing from you and unions who LITERALLY threaten members to vote labor as well as take their money and givt to the ALP.

Equitist wrote on Nov 1^st, 2010 at 7:59am:

Crikey, check this out (all 16 carefully-targeted-propaganda pages of it): - http://www2.ceosale.catholic.edu.au/uploadedFiles/07_News_Centre/News_Items/CEOSale_state_funding_package_final.doc I am attempting to attach it in .txt format - not sure what will happen - meantime here's some of the text: - Quote:       Victorian Catholic Schools       Funding Information Package CONTENTS All pages listed below have been set up in Word format to enable you to copy and paste the text as required. 1      Material for Newsletter insert 2      Parish Priest/Principal Letters Package      a      Parish Priest/Principal Invitation Letter to local State MP Determine whether your local MP is a Labor, Liberal or National Party member and select the appropriate letter text. i. Labor MP OR ii. Liberal and Nationals MP      b      Parish Priest/Principal Letter to Premier John Brumby MP AND      c      Parish Priest/Principal Letter to Education Minister Bronwyn Pike MP      d      Parish Priest/Principal Letter to Ted Baillieu MP, Leader of the Opposition AND      e      Parish Priest/Principal Letter to Martin Dixon MP, Shadow Minister for Education 3      Parent Letters Package      This information could be included in your school newsletter with copies of the two sample letters. Parents could be advised to determine whether their local MP is a Labor, Liberal or National party member and select the appropriate letter text.      a      Parent Letter to local MPs i. Labor MP OR ii. Liberal and Nationals MP 4      Sample School Media Release 5      Background sheet – Questions and Answers      These Q&As could also be included in your school newsletter. 1.      Material for Newsletter insert The state election is now just months away. This is an important opportunity for Catholic education to raise the issue of fair and sustainable state government funding for Catholic schools. For many years Victorian Catholic schools have received the lowest level of state government funding of any state in Australia. As a result, for each dollar of Australian and state government funding going to a student in a Victorian government school a student in a Catholic school receives just 63 cents. We are asking that state funding to Catholic schools be transparently linked to 25% of the cost of education in a Victorian government school. This will ensure a sustainable funding base. The Liberal-National Coalition has committed to funding Catholic schools at this level if they are elected. The Government has informed us that the proposal is under active consideration. I encourage you to write to your local MP to emphasise the importance of this issue. 2. Parish Priest / Principal Letters Package As a Parish Priest or Catholic school principal a letter to your local state MP and our state-wide political leaders can have significant influence. I suggest that you write to the Members of Parliament listed below to raise the issue of sustainable funding for Catholic schools. I have provided sample letters for your use. If we are successful in our funding request this year, we believe we will not need to mount further campaigns on state funding. I suggest that you prioritise letters according to the following list: •      A letter to your local state MP inviting them to meet with you and other school representatives to discuss sustainable funding •      A letter to each of the following: o      Premier John Brumby o      Education Minister Bronwyn Pike o      Opposition Leader Ted Baillieu o      Shadow Education Minister Martin Dixon •      Letters to your five upper house MPs covering your region •      A letter to local lower house candidates (help is available to identify these). A sample for each of these letters is contained in the following pages. Some of the sample letters are very similar or near identical except for the addresses. Each sample is intended to make it as easy as possible to convey the message to our political leaders. For your convenience the contact details for your local state MP and your upper house MPs is available on CEOSale website. You will note there is a different letter for your local state member depending on whether they are a member of the Labor Party or the Liberal/Nationals. The differences in wording reflect the different policy positions which have currently been stated by the relevant parties. I have highlighted sections in some letters in bold and italics where you may choose to provide detail relevant to your school. I have also attached a Parent Letters Package that you may wish to pass to your parent community to assist them to write to their local state MP. If you require further assistance or advice in relation to this material please contact me at the Office on (03) 5622 6600 or via <director@ceosale.catholic.edu.au>. Yours sincerely Peter Ryan Director of Catholic Education Diocese of Sale [...] Nothing remotely political or partisan in all of that, eh!?

Are you deliberately dumb or is it a natural skill? they are targetting BOTH parties. By definition, that is NON-PARTISAN

Equitist wrote on Nov 1^st, 2010 at 8:10am:

nichy wrote on Nov 1st, 2010 at 8:05am: "The state election is now just months away. This is an important opportunity for Catholic education to raise the issue of fair and sustainable state government funding for Catholic schools. For many years Victorian Catholic schools have received the lowest level of state government funding of any state in Australia. As a result, for each dollar of Australian and state government funding going to a student in a Victorian government school a student in a Catholic school receives just 63 cents.We are asking that state funding to Catholic schools be transparently linked to 25% of the cost of education in a Victorian government school. This will ensure a sustainable funding base. The Liberal-National Coalition has committed to funding Catholic schools at this level if they are elected. The Government has informed us that the proposal is under active consideration. I encourage you to write to your local MP to emphasise the importance of this issue." So are you saying that the children in Parish Schools,  whose parents pay tax, are not entitled to a fair share of the tax dollar allocated to Education.  Perhaps you would like to see them all closed down and the State schools jammed well past their capacity.   Nope, not gonna happen, Nichy! Most parents send their kids to religious schools for dogmatic and/or elitist reasons - just as most parents of other private schools do... Statistically, even totally removing public funding of effectively-exclusive pseudo-private schools would have very little impact upon the numbers of students in each sector - but it would free up scarce funds for the education of under-privileged and ordinary public school students alike...

You use the word 'statistically' to try and infer it is a fact or based on research. Therefor it is a great pity to have to say that it is neither 'statistical' nor accurate. the vast majority of provate and catholic schools are 'low fee' schools that cater to middle/lower class families who are willing to spend the extra. very few of them could afford the high-fee exclusive private schools and if govt funding were withdrawn, almost all of them would go back to the public school, but not by choice.

not even the lefty education union makes the ridiculous claim you just made.

Equitist wrote on Nov 1^st, 2010 at 8:22am:

nichy wrote on Nov 1st, 2010 at 8:17am: Most parents send their kids to religious schools for dogmatic and/or elitist reasons - just as most parents of other private schools do...Equitist. Total Crap equitist. Ooops, sorry, you know better, I forgot ! OK, Nichy et al, here's your chance to explain the reasons why parents choose to send their children to Catholic and other independent/private schools... Go for it!

Better educational and life outcomes as PROVEN by research.

longweekend58 wrote on Nov 1^st, 2010 at 10:14am:

Equitist wrote on Nov 1st, 2010 at 8:22am: nichy wrote on Nov 1st, 2010 at 8:17am: Most parents send their kids to religious schools for dogmatic and/or elitist reasons - just as most parents of other private schools do...Equitist. Total Crap equitist. Ooops, sorry, you know better, I forgot ! OK, Nichy et al, here's your chance to explain the reasons why parents choose to send their children to Catholic and other independent/private schools... Go for it! Better educational and life outcomes as PROVEN by research.

As a result of inequitable funding arrangements brought in by the Howard Government!!!

>:(

Most Catholic schools in my area charge $2000 per student. They get $5000 per student from the government. This totals to $7000. Government schools get $10000/student. Inequitable funding arrangements? Yes, but I don't think you have the right idea of who is wealthier than who.

(all figures are yearly)

Hlysnan wrote on Nov 1^st, 2010 at 10:21pm:

Most Catholic schools in my area charge $2000 per student. They get $5000 per student from the government. This totals to $7000. Government schools get $10000/student. Inequitable funding arrangements? Yes, but I don't think you have the right idea of who is wealthier than who. (all figures are yearly)

Hmmnnn....how much of a contribution do you expect one of the world's wealthiest institutions to make to cover the indoctrination-cum-education of the children of their flock!?

How much of a contribution is the church making - is it quantified!?

Moreover, how much are these children and their parents and diocese benefiting from their school-cum-church's tax-free charitable status!?

A couple of years ago, Christian Brothers (a religious school) closed down in my suburb because they couldn't afford to keep it open anymore. I don't know how much contribution the church pays out but if this sort of thing happens, I doubt it's very significant.

Hlysnan wrote on Nov 1^st, 2010 at 10:35pm:

A couple of years ago, Christian Brothers (a religious school) closed down in my suburb because they couldn't afford to keep it open anymore. I don't know how much contribution the church pays out but if this sort of thing happens, I doubt it's very significant.

I expect that there were a range of factors at play - the most tenable of which was affordability...

Perhaps the church had alternative long-term plans...

Either way, it is interesting that some people push for Aussie Govts to subsidise Xtian education more - in lieu of pressing the wealthy foreign church for funds to support its international indoctrination campaign...

Meantime, folks, I note that there has been no tenable case put to refute my earlier comments about the motivations of parents in choosing non-public schooling for their children...

Hlysnan wrote on Nov 1^st, 2010 at 10:21pm:

Most Catholic schools in my area charge $2000 per student. They get $5000 per student from the government. This totals to $7000. Government schools get $10000/student. Inequitable funding arrangements? Yes, but I don't think you have the right idea of who is wealthier than who. (all figures are yearly)

Fair enough....do you have a link or do we have to take your word for it???

:)

philperth2010 wrote on Nov 1^st, 2010 at 10:47pm:

Hlysnan wrote on Nov 1st, 2010 at 10:21pm: Most Catholic schools in my area charge $2000 per student. They get $5000 per student from the government. This totals to $7000. Government schools get $10000/student. Inequitable funding arrangements? Yes, but I don't think you have the right idea of who is wealthier than who. (all figures are yearly) Fair enough....do you have a link or do we have to take your word for it??? :)

It's past my pumpkin time so I am off to bed - but I seem to recall that the relevant information can be found at those pages linked by me a page or 2 back on this thread...

Nite folks!

;)

Equitist wrote on Nov 1^st, 2010 at 10:43pm:

Meantime, folks, I note that there has been no tenable case put to refute my earlier comments about the motivations of parents in choosing non-public schooling for their children...

You havent probably worked this out, but as a rule people are choosing not to engage your rather shrill and ludicrous claims. There is no standard that you would accept other than your own opinion. It has been shown time and time again why people send their kids to private schools. Because you personally dont beleive them you therefore dont accept them and then ask the question all over again expecting the answer to somehow be different this time.

Equitist wrote on Nov 1^st, 2010 at 10:37pm:

Hlysnan wrote on Nov 1st, 2010 at 10:35pm: A couple of years ago, Christian Brothers (a religious school) closed down in my suburb because they couldn't afford to keep it open anymore. I don't know how much contribution the church pays out but if this sort of thing happens, I doubt it's very significant. I expect that there were a range of factors at play - the most tenable of which was affordability... Perhaps the church had alternative long-term plans... Either way, it is interesting that some people push for Aussie Govts to subsidise Xtian education more - in lieu of pressing the wealthy foreign church for funds to support its international indoctrination campaign...

it makes me wonder if you have ever been anywhere near a christian school. you clearly have little idea what goes on there. Many of us could tell you, but would there be any point? would you even listen?