Will be interesting to see how many of the current Independant members of parliament are returned in the up coming state elections.

My feelings are that almost all of them will be wiped out, and then in turn at the federal level they and the greens will be extinct.

laborfornever wrote on Sep 8^th, 2010 at 7:37pm:

Will be interesting to see how many of the current Independant members of parliament are returned in the up coming state elections. My feelings are that almost all of them will be wiped out, and then in turn at the federal level they and the greens will be extinct.

I think of more interest is the term 'independant' which in the vast majority of cases are anything BUT. they are usually UNALIGNED but not truly independant.

I can almost guarantee the reverse will be true at the next federal election.. As it will only be a short matter of time before the national party members see it is better to be a Independent and what deals can be done at this level while not having to worry about party politics ..

They will switch camp like the 3 Amigos did and we will have more Independents running at each election .. the swing is not to any of the major parties it is towards the smaller ones ... would love to see Abbott's face when a few more of the coalition break ranks and become Indi's

Binary Ninja wrote on Sep 8^th, 2010 at 8:18pm:

I can almost guarantee the reverse will be true at the next federal election.. As it will only be a short matter of time before the national party members see it is better to be a Independent and what deals can be done at this level while not having to worry about party politics .. They will switch camp like the 3 Amigos did and we will have more Independents running at each election .. the swing is not to any of the major parties it is towards the smaller ones ... would love to see Abbott's face when a few more of the coalition break ranks and become Indi's

which must make the fact that there was an INCREASE in the coalitions primary vote of 2.7% an 'inconvenient truth'

laborfornever wrote on Sep 8^th, 2010 at 7:37pm:

Will be interesting to see how many of the current Independant members of parliament are returned in the up coming state elections. My feelings are that almost all of them will be wiped out, and then in turn at the federal level they and the greens will be extinct.

Indeed it will.

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 8^th, 2010 at 8:23pm:

which must make the fact that there was an INCREASE in the coalitions primary vote of 2.7% an 'inconvenient truth'

the liberals actually lost seats since the last election about 11 of them .. so as said the national will wise up and realise it is better to be a Indi

I think it will make them more popular. Too many voters just assume it is about Labor or Liberal. Having four parties in the lower house will also help. It is getting so hard to tell the difference between Labor and Liberal that people are keen for something new.

This is the beginning of the end for both Labor and Liberal.
Both have been playing off each other for so long, they can't tell who is who these days.

I reckon 10 Independents next election and even more the following.
The Greens will just provide the 'issues' that are needed the most.
A Republic won't come around until the Democrats go for broke as the last powerplay of the USA (Eureka!).

Australia will be a Republic of seperate independent Provincials.
Flag will be changed, name of country will be changed from Latin: South Land to a more suitable expression of the Oceanic region.

We will be world leaders in Art
and Water technology.

This message was proudly brought to you by a WWW.COMmunist.
Hello COMrades! Power to the People!

Binary Ninja wrote on Sep 8^th, 2010 at 8:49pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 8th, 2010 at 8:23pm: which must make the fact that there was an INCREASE in the coalitions primary vote of 2.7% an 'inconvenient truth' the liberals actually lost seats since the last election about 11 of them .. so as said the national will wise up and realise it is better to be a Indi

It appears on the surface that way, however, in Queensland the liberals and Nationals this year were a joint party and picked up 21 seats.

I think more ministers could go independant. May stop some of the blame game.

After listening to MsGash cry out an hour after the election result that she can now NOT promise any of her election promises. seems like it could be used as an easy way out excuse.

wrote on Sep 9^th, 2010 at 11:11am:

I think more ministers could go independant. May stop some of the blame game. After listening to MsGash cry out an hour after the election result that she can now NOT promise any of her election promises. seems like it could be used as an easy way out excuse.

Veg,  of course she can't honour her election promises,  her party is NOT in government !!!!

freediver wrote on Sep 9^th, 2010 at 1:17am:

I think it will make them more popular. Too many voters just assume it is about Labor or Liberal. Having four parties in the lower house will also help. It is getting so hard to tell the difference between Labor and Liberal that people are keen for something new.

I think (and hope) this is true. Not just independents but room for smaller parties. Very exciting time for western democracy hope we don't blow it.

I agree with what you say about Labor and Liberal.

Quote:

Are independants finished in politics??

No!

Deborahmac09 wrote on Sep 9^th, 2010 at 11:02am:

It appears on the surface that way, however, in Queensland the liberals and Nationals this year were a joint party and picked up 21 seats.

Even if the 11 were in the 21 seats for the LNP  what number is liberal what number is national .. It is still the same party , same antics , just with a new name ... The line is still blurred

As a lot of people are saying the swing is towards the smaller parties , Indi's and Greens ... At or before the next election watch how many national party members make the switch to the Independent MP status now it is easier to bring in a private members bill, easier to negotiate with the party's.. The precedence has been set  and i think the coalition will be the one to feel the impact

The perception is that the independants sold their electorate out, True??


So these independants are not worth the ticket they run on, so why would you vote for an independant knowing full well he may become a turncoat and support who you despise??


So ppl will say I may as well vote for either libs or labs, why would you vote independant when they held us to ransom and then went against who most ppl supported in their electorates, ppl are stupid.

But 1 thing this election has done is high light the importance of voting and getting it right and not allowing 1-4 randoms to decide government.

I am sure that if these independants went with the libs when the count was equal you labor lot would be screaming blue murder.

The two things I am struggling with -

1) Julia Gillard points to this additional investment package into rural Australia as much needed investment. If it was so important, how come it wasn't in their policy before she needed the independents' votes?

2) National broadband being rolled out to rural Australia first.
Why?
Why should they get it before the majority of the rest of us who live in the cities?
If people choose to live in the middle of nowhere that's their lookout - why should they get preferential treatment over the rest of us?

laborfornever wrote on Sep 9^th, 2010 at 1:26pm:

The perception is that the independants sold their electorate out, True??

Is that what their electorates are percieving?

Got a link?

laborfornever wrote on Sep 8^th, 2010 at 7:37pm:

Will be interesting to see how many of the current Independant members of parliament are returned in the up coming state elections. My feelings are that almost all of them will be wiped out, and then in turn at the federal level they and the greens will be extinct.

In State elections???...probably at least half.....depending on how well they have performed for their particular electorates...

Just remember..Independants don't suffer from the same 'fallout' that Party pollies do....Voters consider them individuals...unlike Party pollies who do suffer if their party performs poorly at the 'other' level....

locutius wrote on Sep 9^th, 2010 at 2:40pm:

laborfornever wrote on Sep 9th, 2010 at 1:26pm: The perception is that the independants sold their electorate out, True?? Is that what their electorates are perceiving? Got a link?

They did preference the coalition before labor.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 9^th, 2010 at 1:38pm:

The two things I am struggling with - 1) Julia Gillard points to this additional investment package into rural Australia as much needed investment. If it was so important, how come it wasn't in their policy before she needed the independents' votes? 2) National broadband being rolled out to rural Australia first. Why? Why should they get it before the majority of the rest of us who live in the cities? If people choose to live in the middle of nowhere that's their lookout - why should they get preferential treatment over the rest of us?

I think you are just plain ignorant .. The rural / regional package was in the Labor Party' s original election policies .. it has just been increased and increased more in those electorates...

As far as the NBN broadband rollout maybe drive to a country area and say that to them and hopefully someone smacks you on the side of the head for being a jerk... They have had little of no infrastructure in 12 years of the Howard government , no upgrades , some still on dial up yet you say they should not get it before us when we are on a far superior service ... And if you take noe maybe read the news both city and country area getting it rolled out simultaneously  

Deborahmac09 wrote on Sep 9^th, 2010 at 3:03pm:

locutius wrote on Sep 9th, 2010 at 2:40pm: laborfornever wrote on Sep 9th, 2010 at 1:26pm: The perception is that the independants sold their electorate out, True?? Is that what their electorates are perceiving? Got a link? They did preference the coalition before labor.

And yet they favoured Labor at the end. It would seem that Labor offered the best package for their electorate, negotiated by the independant they voted for....seems to me like mission accomplished. And if I were the independent that is exactly how I would play it to my constituants.

If you want to argue a point, get some facts.

Re the Indies electorates and the vote composition  refr you to the inestimable Possum:

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2010/08/28/swings-margins-and-indie-heterogeneity/

No, the electorates voted for the Indies. The source of the Indies TPP votes was not overwhelmingly Lib/Nat voters.

locutius wrote on Sep 9^th, 2010 at 3:18pm:

And yet they favoured Labor at the end. It would seem that Labor offered the best package for their electorate, negotiated by the independant they voted for....seems to me like mission accomplished. And if I were the independent that is exactly how I would play it to my constituants.

And this is why we will have more independent MP's and the Electorates will demand it ... more nationals  leaving the coalition for the independent role so they can get things done

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 9^th, 2010 at 1:38pm:

The two things I am struggling with - 1) Julia Gillard points to this additional investment package into rural Australia as much needed investment. If it was so important, how come it wasn't in their policy before she needed the independents' votes? 2) National broadband being rolled out to rural Australia first. Why? Why should they get it before the majority of the rest of us who live in the cities? If people choose to live in the middle of nowhere that's their lookout - why should they get preferential treatment over the rest of us?

The political ignorance from those on the right is astounding!

Think back to the words of Bob Katter: the last Labor govt spent more in Kennedy in the last three years than the Howard govt did in 12.

Think back to the words of the Glorious Julia answering this question to some tiresome politically ignorant reporter: Most of the regional spending is already in the program! while some additional spending will go to ALL the regions (O&W didn’t ask for stuff for just their electorates, you know, very ethical fellows O&W!)

Now regarding whether independents are finished, in the particular I guess Bandt is since the deluded Libs won’t give him preferences a second time. O&W certainly will not be!

In the general, you know, you now have two former Nats in a position to be able to give results the Nats couldn’t in a million years! I suspect you are seeing the start of the rise of rural independents and the collapse of the National Party. I am just sad that the great Peter Andren, MP for Calare, died of pancreatic cancer a couple of months before the 2007 election: he would have relished this situation and offered great leadership. Alas!

Re the NBN being rolled out in rural areas first, are you guys so devoid of empathy? The Bush can be a very lonely place, very sparsely populated! The NBN can help end this isolation! it is like argung with statues except statues would have greater intelligence and empathy than most here!

locutius wrote on Sep 9^th, 2010 at 3:18pm:

Deborahmac09 wrote on Sep 9th, 2010 at 3:03pm: locutius wrote on Sep 9th, 2010 at 2:40pm: laborfornever wrote on Sep 9th, 2010 at 1:26pm: The perception is that the independants sold their electorate out, True?? Is that what their electorates are perceiving? Got a link? They did preference the coalition before labor. And yet they favoured Labor at the end. It would seem that Labor offered the best package for their electorate, negotiated by the independent they voted for....seems to me like mission accomplished. And if I were the independent that is exactly how I would play it to my constituents.

Yes, they took the best deal for their electorate. But one side will not agree that it was the best deal. They have to now prove that it was the best deal and best for the country.

Crikey..its only been a few days.
I thought Aussies were supposed to give people a fair go?
I can understand it when people start whinging if things go to pot over the next few yrs but until then its all just sour grapes because their chosen party didn't get up.
The major parties are pretty much the same apart from a few policies around the edges so no matter what happens Australia will still be a wealthy vibrant country.

Dont panic!   :)

Labor govt spent more in Kennedy in the last three years than the Howard govt did in 12.



===================================


You could say exactly the same for our liberal safe seat of gilmore.( Gash)

'Labor govt spent more in Gilmore in the last three years than the Howard govt did in 12."

A fair go adelcrow should, but doesn't extend to labor and those who helped it form government.

Interesting to note Borbich, Hewson and Richardson all agree that this government will not last 18 months and Hewson says the independants will perform badly at the next poll???


But hey what do I know???

Now this Simon Sheikh fellow he too is a dreamer and fails to deal with reality of parliament but looks at what they might be able to do, another dreamer.

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 9^th, 2010 at 1:38pm:

The two things I am struggling with - 1) Julia Gillard points to this additional investment package into rural Australia as much needed investment. If it was so important, how come it wasn't in their policy before she needed the independents' votes? 2) National broadband being rolled out to rural Australia first. Why? Why should they get it before the majority of the rest of us who live in the cities? If people choose to live in the middle of nowhere that's their lookout - why should they get preferential treatment over the rest of us?

1. Er...  they didn't realise before the election how important it really is.....

2. Because they are now the preferred people - preferred to re-elect the indepndents who are backing Labor.



On a serious note:
Hypocrisy is a very, very important element of a mature society and polity. I am not joking, it is a seriously important trait for a peaceful, prosperous society.

laborfornever wrote on Sep 9^th, 2010 at 9:17pm:

Interesting to note Borbich, Hewson and Richardson all agree that this government will not last 18 months and Hewson says the independants will perform badly at the next poll??? But hey what do I know??? Now this Simon Sheikh fellow he too is a dreamer and fails to deal with reality of parliament but looks at what they might be able to do, another dreamer.

Get up would stand a real chance of becoming Australia's new left powerhouse if they ran a number of contenders at the next election.  

If the electorates wanted a coalition government. Why didn't they VOTE for the coalition instead of an independent. Why throw a vote away for an independent candidate when you can just vote for the party you want in office? Also, I don't believe that the people who voted informal have a right to voice their opinion about who should form government. If they wanted a certain party in government, they should have voted for them. Sorry, just my opinion.

What? you expect all the people to be rational all the time?

James Bluntus wrote on Sep 9^th, 2010 at 9:48pm:

If the electorates wanted a coalition government. Why didn't they VOTE for the coalition instead of an independent. Why throw a vote away for an independent candidate when you can just vote for the party you want in office? Also, I don't believe that the people who voted informal have a right to voice their opinion about who should form government. If they wanted a certain party in government, they should have voted for them. Sorry, just my opinion.

Why do people feel the need to apologise for their opinions?

Lyne was the only independant seat with a substantial swing away from both Major parties, in the other two it was only the ALP that suffered a notable -ve swing in both the other independent seats with relevance.

they were never labour held seats .. they were nationals then went to the same member who was a independent now

Binary Ninja wrote on Sep 9^th, 2010 at 10:04pm:

they were never labour held seats .. they were nationals then went to the same member who was a independent now

I knew I should have spelt it out slowly.

qikvtec wrote on Sep 9^th, 2010 at 10:07pm:

Binary Ninja wrote on Sep 9th, 2010 at 10:04pm: they were never labour held seats .. they were nationals then went to the same member who was a independent now I knew I should have spelt it out slowly.

the swing in those electorates was irrelevant they were never going to be won by any other member then that was the sitting member..

the libs cant take credit for credit for theses seats like they want to  

Binary Ninja wrote on Sep 9^th, 2010 at 10:04pm:

they were never labour held seats .. they were nationals then went to the same member who was a independent now

So?? What difference does it make? The Indi's aren't members of the Coalition now are they. If they wanted a coalition government, they should have voted for one.

All of these problems would be solved if we switched to voting by delgable proxy. No more confusion over who or what people are voting for.

It is obvious that Oakeshotte is not an Independent -  simply a slippery fraudster wanting to feather his own nest.  He knew that he would never be elected in Lyne if he had declared his true colours.  

.......

Neutral? Rob Oakeshott 'asked Labor for state cabinet seat'

EXCLUSIVE: Imre Salusinszky, NSW political reporter From: The Australian September 10, 2010 12:00AM

ROB Oakeshott has previously sought positions in Labor cabinets, casting doubt on whether the independent MP was fully impartial as he considered the claims of Julia Gillard and Tony Abbott to form minority government.

The Australian has learned that Mr Oakeshott, then a state MP, approached former NSW premier Morris Iemma in 2007 and asked to join his ministry. He was emboldened by persistent rumours of a cabinet reshuffle and the fact that Mr Iemma had recently appointed another independent, Northern Tablelands MP Richard Torbay, as Speaker.

According to a senior Labor source, Mr Oakeshott told Mr Iemma he might resign from parliament if his request were not met, warning that his seat of Port Macquarie would probably revert to the Nationals.

Binary Ninja wrote on Sep 9^th, 2010 at 10:04pm:

they were never labour held seats .. they were nationals then went to the same member who was a independent now

Actually the seat of Kennedy was historically a labor seat, only when Bob Katter senior went to the country party did it become  non-labor and when he left it actually went back to labor until Bob Katter junior took the seat.

But I can comfortablly say, it is not a nominal labor seat today, when Bob jnr leaves, hopefully he has a son called Bob too, 'cause we don't like change up in these parts.  ;D

Bigol 64 all seats were labor once if you use that analogy .. it hasn't been a labor seat for many years and this would apply to more then one seat in Australia based on history .. Bob Katter has been in since 1993 , he turn Indi in 2001 and is still currently serving .. how many elections do you want to go back ... Even before this his father held the seat for 24 years Hon. R.C. Katter Sr.

Binary Ninja wrote on Sep 10^th, 2010 at 8:18am:

Bigol 64 all seats were labor once if you use that analogy .. it hasn't been a labor seat for many years and this would apply to more then one seat in Australia based on history .. Bob Katter has been in since 1993 , he turn Indi in 2001 and is still currently serving .. how many elections do you want to go back ... Even before this his father held the seat for 24 years Hon. R.C. Katter Sr.

Im well aware of the political to-ing fro-ing of politics in the seat of Kennedy, I have lived there most of my life, either in it or right beside it in Herbert.

When the katters were not sitting in the seat it was generally a labor seat not a national seat unless the Katters were in the national / country party.

It has been either a Katter electorate or a labor electorate and sometimes both.  :)

The point is how many elections / how far back before you can say it is a labour only seat or Independent only seat .. it has either been his or his fathers for 40 odd years ... so pretty safe to say it is a Katter seat ..

you vote for the member not the party

Binary Ninja wrote on Sep 10^th, 2010 at 8:42am:

The point is how many elections / how far back before you can say it is a labour only seat or Independent only seat .. it has either been his or his fathers for 40 odd years ... so pretty safe to say it is a Katter seat .. you vote for the member not the party

I never said it was a labor only seat, I did say it was historically labor or nominally labor, when it was not in the hands of Bob snr or Bob jnr.

nichy wrote on Sep 10^th, 2010 at 7:34am:

It is obvious that Oakeshotte is not an Independent -  simply a slippery fraudster wanting to feather his own nest.  He knew that he would never be elected in Lyne if he had declared his true colours.   ....... Neutral? Rob Oakeshott 'asked Labor for state cabinet seat' EXCLUSIVE: Imre Salusinszky, NSW political reporter From: The Australian September 10, 2010 12:00AM ROB Oakeshott has previously sought positions in Labor cabinets, casting doubt on whether the independent MP was fully impartial as he considered the claims of Julia Gillard and Tony Abbott to form minority government. The Australian has learned that Mr Oakeshott, then a state MP, approached former NSW premier Morris Iemma in 2007 and asked to join his ministry. He was emboldened by persistent rumours of a cabinet reshuffle and the fact that Mr Iemma had recently appointed another independent, Northern Tablelands MP Richard Torbay, as Speaker. According to a senior Labor source, Mr Oakeshott told Mr Iemma he might resign from parliament if his request were not met, warning that his seat of Port Macquarie would probably revert to the Nationals.

That does not mean he isn't independent. It doesn't even make sense to expect a politician to be neutral. They are elected for whatever stance they take, not because they fail to take a stand.

freediver,  of course it wouldn't make sense for a politician to be neutral,  however an Independent is generally accepted as being "neither , or",  in order to secure the best he/she can for their electorate.  It would seem that Oakeshotte misled the electorate by declaring himself Independent when  obviously he is a Labor man,  but didn't have the guts to stand as a Labor candidate knowing the electorate is basically conservative.  (or could it have been that Labor didn't want him, until now)

nichy wrote on Sep 10^th, 2010 at 10:50am:

freediver,  of course it wouldn't make sense for a politician to be neutral,  however an Independent is generally accepted as being "neither , or",  in order to secure the best he/she can for their electorate.  It would seem that Oakeshotte misled the electorate by declaring himself Independent when  obviously he is a Labor man,  but didn't have the guts to stand as a Labor candidate knowing the electorate is basically conservative.  (or could it have been that Labor didn't want him, until now)

Asking for a cabinet seat does not contradict that. If he wanted to join Labor he would join Labor and tow the party line.

What do you expect this guy to do? Spoil his only opportunity for real power by agreeing to sit on the sidelines and let the major parties carry on as if he wasn't even there? How does being on the cabinet harm his electorate?

How can he be Independent if he is serving in the cabinet of one particular political party ?  I can't see either leader giving someone a position in their government and allowing them to "do their own thing"

Which is why he didn't get the cabinet seat. So by your logic this proves his independence.

nichy wrote on Sep 10^th, 2010 at 10:57am:

How can he be Independent if he is serving in the cabinet of one particular political party ?  I can't see either leader giving someone a position in their government and allowing them to "do their own thing"

He is serving his Electorate , he has already brokered a deal for his electorate and regional Australia in general he has actually achieved something ..

How can Bob Katter be a independent and still side with the coalition from which he split ... he actually sided with them knowing he would in opposition and unable to do anything for his electorate ...

They are independents servicing their electorates in the best way they can well 2 of the 3 did Katter chose not to do something for his knowing he was clearly able to ...