Stephen Hawking has re-ignited the boundary disputes between science and religion in his latest book The Grand Design:

" ‘Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing’. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist."

Do you think he's got it right?

he doesn't know God or even himself ..

If that wording is correct I am a little disappointed in it. Although I hold that position as a materialist I would have preferred that he make a statement along the lines that "through the mechanism of gravity spontaneous creation is possible and is one possible explaination for why the universe exists". Nothing else is necessay.

While I don't believe in God, I know he is damned hard to kill.

If that wording is correct I am a little disappointed in it. Although I hold that position as a materialist I would have preferred that he make a statement along the lines that "through the mechanism of gravity spontaneous creation is possible and is one possible explaination for why the universe exists". Nothing else is necessay

=========================


Could also look at it another way. In that -  

By  saying "through the mechanism of gravity spontaneous creation is possible and is one possible explaination for why the universe exists" Isn’t relying the message in simple term - hence  it goes over many a man's heads.  :-?

Where as what is stated brings on ,hopefully, a robust debate and discussion on the same theory....  :o

utter hoodwink and validation of hawking

being a club of rome freemason,knight of malta.

the truth is within you

namaste

I have my doubts about this Hawking fella.  He might be a brainiac, but he'd need to be a million times smarter again to solve this riddle.

Blind people tend to hear 50% better than us.
When I did an Art course, a fair number participating were Deaf - they were often far better than the average with their visual displays.
Dementia Patients (though Western Medicine is yet to catch on ...yet) tend to 'feel' a lot more and can sense your emotions far better than the you can yourself. If you are in a bad mood - they'll let you know it alright.

...something lost is something gained.

Sure some people chase after what they are lost like Para Olympians, whereas some just see what they can gain instead - like a physically handicapped person getting a few Uni degrees.

Stephen Hawkings is so physically buggered up that he puts his entire potential into what he has gained, not what he has lost and that is his mental capabilities. Little wonder that he could present an entire physics theory as a personal philosophy in one go.
I guess there are a lot of jealous Scientists out there who study hard to be even smarter than what they are and then see this physically crippled man come and do the same almost naturally ...if not forced to by his own 'lack of'.

So with Religion being a creation via the creation of writing which was influenced by an appraisal of the Moon known as Sin at the Temple of Ur. God and the concept of God has just been an ever changing belief system. Invisible to justify its all-encompassing justification of claiming empowerment over everything.

I think the Universe, as we now know it, is much bigger than any God, Jehovah, Allah, Yalweh ...ever was in the mind, let alone the writings, of Man.

God is a carrot on the end of a stick for some - they'll never get it, no matter how many directions you give em for explaination.


Onya Stephen Hawkings!

When I had to watch people die (Palliative). Some would be anxious about their impending death (mostly smokers). They would ask me about Heaven and God fearfully ...like I said, fearfully.
The best I could answer them was ..."You will go to wherever your 'dreams' will take you".
This to me is as good as it gets.

In a way, he could be falling into the hands of religion. In his formula for universes- a pinch of gravity and a pinch of nothing- we are getting awfully close to the "Word". What is the nature of gravity in nothing? Pretty abstract, to say the least.

You will go to wherever your 'dreams' will take you

==============================

Wow  .. thats deep  :'(


but  [smiley=thumbup.gif]

Ziggy wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 7:02pm:

In a way, he could be falling into the hands of religion. In his formula for universes- a pinch of gravity and a pinch of nothing- we are getting awfully close to the "Word". What is the nature of gravity in nothing? Pretty abstract, to say the least.

Gravity by it's very nature is interlocked with mass. To talk about gravity and nothing does not make sense.

To paraphrase Terry Pratchett (incorrectly) "In the beginning there was something and then it exploded"

It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 4:22pm:

Blind people tend to hear 50% better than us. When I did an Art course, a fair number participating were Deaf - they were often far better than the average with their visual displays. Dementia Patients (though Western Medicine is yet to catch on ...yet) tend to 'feel' a lot more and can sense your emotions far better than the you can yourself. If you are in a bad mood - they'll let you know it alright. ...something lost is something gained. Sure some people chase after what they are lost like Para Olympians, whereas some just see what they can gain instead - like a physically handicapped person getting a few Uni degrees. Stephen Hawkings is so physically buggered up that he puts his entire potential into what he has gained, not what he has lost and that is his mental capabilities. Little wonder that he could present an entire physics theory as a personal philosophy in one go. I guess there are a lot of jealous Scientists out there who study hard to be even smarter than what they are and then see this physically crippled man come and do the same almost naturally ...if not forced to by his own 'lack of'. So with Religion being a creation via the creation of writing which was influenced by an appraisal of the Moon known as Sin at the Temple of Ur. God and the concept of God has just been an ever changing belief system. Invisible to justify its all-encompassing justification of claiming empowerment over everything. I think the Universe, as we now know it, is much bigger than any God, Jehovah, Allah, Yalweh ...ever was in the mind, let alone the writings, of Man. God is a carrot on the end of a stick for some - they'll never get it, no matter how many directions you give em for explaination. sorry about this long quote, but, how does it, this text, explain the ungodly politicians extant in Australia. what are these ppl? God's fart? j. Onya Stephen Hawkings! When I had to watch people die (Palliative). Some would be anxious about their impending death (mostly smokers). They would ask me about Heaven and God fearfully ...like I said, fearfully. The best I could answer them was ..."You will go to wherever your 'dreams' will take you". This to me is as good as it gets.

Ziggy wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 12:52pm:

" ‘Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing’. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist."

That`s easy for him to say.

Ziggy wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 12:52pm:

Stephen Hawking has re-ignited the boundary disputes between science and religion in his latest book The Grand Design: " ‘Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing’. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist." Do you think he's got it right?

The man is correct.

But that won't stop the militant Christians from insisting that their imaginary friend exists.

Thats why Religious people have a 'Gun' problem,
as if they were 'Militants'
Jsut as much as Musicians have a 'Drug' problem,
as if they were 'Medical'.

Hawking is right.
The Universe was created from nothing.
The total energy of the universe is equal to zero.

Kabbalists have never believed, as I understand them, that God created the Universe. They say that Adam Kadmon did. Maybe that's a more accurate metaphor for what Hawking is on about.
Hinduism, I think, says something similar.
Why would a God actually want to create a stuff up like this?

shampain socialist wrote on Sep 4^th, 2010 at 10:44pm:

Kabbalists have never believed, as I understand them, that God created the Universe. They say that Adam Kadmon did. Maybe that's a more accurate metaphor for what Hawking is on about. Hinduism, I think, says something similar. Why would a God actually want to create a stuff up like this?

runs and Giggles?

Unlikely; but whoever did it is an incompetent idiot.
If there's a God I wouldn't blame it first.

shampain socialist wrote on Sep 4^th, 2010 at 11:02pm:

Unlikely; but whoever did it is an incompetent idiot. If there's a God I wouldn't blame it first.

God does not exist.
See the debate on a thread I started which I won easily.

All Religion is Nonsense:
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1276917094/0#0

Why would a God actually want to create a stuff up like this?

__________

and so it is i am before you all once more,

this 'stuff up' is nothing of the sort.

this experience is for you to do just that...to just be.

what will you create?

is it LOVE or fear?

have a go will yas?

namaste

I`m bemused by the credibility given to a vegetable in a straight jacket re the existance of god.  Although it would be churlish to obstruct a little chappie in Hawking`s position from having his little bit of fun, I wouldn`t be overly confident in his actual ability to arrive at a correct conclusion on subjects of this magnitude.

Ziggy wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 12:52pm:

Stephen Hawking has re-ignited the boundary disputes between science and religion in his latest book The Grand Design: " ‘Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing’. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist." Do you think he's got it right?

Asking the question where did gravity come from? Did God create Gravity?

Seems to be making the conclusion that gravity existed before the big bang justified by the theory that the Big Bang was triggered by gravity.

Seems a bit self fulfilling, difficult to justify and based on the conclusion that gravity is nothing which I could possibly dboubt.

aussiefree2ride wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 8:56am:

I`m bemused by the credibility given to a vegetable in a straight jacket re the existance of god.  Although it would be churlish to obstruct a little chappie in Hawking`s position from having his little bit of fun, I wouldn`t be overly confident in his actual ability to arrive at a correct conclusion on subjects of this magnitude.

WTF!?

Ziggy wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 12:52pm:

Stephen Hawking has re-ignited the boundary disputes between science and religion in his latest book The Grand Design: " ‘Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing’. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist." Do you think he's got it right?

Who is this bloke?
Just an insignificant Pome cripple, whose already once was wrong about black holes.
That's why God already marked him.

It is amusing how deists can put their entire faith in the musings of unknown bronze age writers, yet totally dismiss a modern man with an incredibly high intellect and the whole accumulated knowledge of civilisation to draw upon.

I think that tells us all we really need to know about their intellects. ;)

mozzaok wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 11:33am:

It is amusing how deists can put their entire faith in the musings of unknown bronze age writers, yet totally dismiss a modern man with an incredibly high intellect and the whole accumulated knowledge of civilisation to draw upon. I think that tells us all we really need to know about their intellects. ;)

That would be theists, mate. Deists have the philosophical god who is either dead or couldn't give a stuff.

Bobby. wrote on Sep 4^th, 2010 at 11:05pm:

shampain socialist wrote on Sep 4th, 2010 at 11:02pm: Unlikely; but whoever did it is an incompetent idiot. If there's a God I wouldn't blame it first. God does not exist.

Yes she does! I won that argument.

See my thread:
All Religion is Nonsense:
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1276917094/0#0


The answers are there!

THE Dilemma

Everything that has ever and will ever happen, is pre-determined, is part of the great plan and therefore choice and freedom of thought, are just an illusion.

There is no god, chaos is the only universal rule and our choices will determine the future of humanity.

Which is more difficult to believe?
Which is more unpalatable?

Btw, if God (he or she) did create the Earth & the stars, then who created God?

muso wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 12:11pm:

mozzaok wrote on Sep 5th, 2010 at 11:33am: It is amusing how deists can put their entire faith in the musings of unknown bronze age writers, yet totally dismiss a modern man with an incredibly high intellect and the whole accumulated knowledge of civilisation to draw upon. I think that tells us all we really need to know about their intellects. ;) That would be theists, mate. Deists have the philosophical god who is either death or couldn't give a stuff.

LOL, fair enuff.

Perceptions.

Quote:

Btw, if God (he or she) did create the Earth & the stars, then who created God?

The answer is people created God out of their need to understand
the universe & their fear of death.

Bobby. wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 1:21pm:

Perceptions. Quote: Btw, if God (he or she) did create the Earth & the stars, then who created God? The answer is people created God out of their need to understand the universe & their fear of death.

Which therefore means -
"There is no god, chaos is the only universal rule and our choices will determine the future of humanity."

To which, given our past history, perhaps I should add, "God help us"???

mozzaok wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 1:00pm:

muso wrote on Sep 5th, 2010 at 12:11pm: mozzaok wrote on Sep 5th, 2010 at 11:33am: It is amusing how deists can put their entire faith in the musings of unknown bronze age writers, yet totally dismiss a modern man with an incredibly high intellect and the whole accumulated knowledge of civilisation to draw upon. I think that tells us all we really need to know about their intellects. ;) That would be theists, mate. Deists have the philosophical god who is either death or couldn't give a stuff. LOL, fair enuff.

In relation to the question of the existence of God, the bronze age stone chipper probably is about on a par with Hawking.  The Bronze age chipper might have even had inside info?

Bobby. wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 12:55pm:

See my thread: All Religion is Nonsense: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1276917094/0#0 The answers are there!

Yeah - and as I said, I proved that my god existed, and that you couldn't prove that she didn't.

Bobby. wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 1:21pm:

Perceptions. Quote: Btw, if God (he or she) did create the Earth & the stars, then who created God? The answer is people created God out of their need to understand the universe & their fear of death.

At last  - you admitted that God exists. (I'll get bored with this argument again soon)

aussiefree2ride wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 3:42pm:

In relation to the question of the existence of God, the bronze age stone chipper probably is about on a par with Hawking.  The Bronze age chipper might have even had inside info?

Well, the Bronze Age guy with the bad breath lived in a quieter society. He knew that silence was more than just a period of time that your blackberry doesn't ring.

At the same time, he had some pretty ugly tribal prejudices (as well as bad teeth and halitosis.)

perceptions_now wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 12:57pm:

THE Dilemma Everything that has ever and will ever happen, is pre-determined, is part of the great plan and therefore choice and freedom of thought, are just an illusion. There is no god, chaos is the only universal rule and our choices will determine the future of humanity. Which is more difficult to believe? Which is more unpalatable? Btw, if God (he or she) did create the Earth & the stars, then who created God?

The ancient Greeks say that Gaia was born out of Chaos.

That's an interesting way of putting it. In modern parlance, God is that property of the universe that results in entropic anomalies, such as life. 'God' or 'Gaia' is associated with order - the antithesis of chaos.

shampain socialist wrote on Sep 4^th, 2010 at 11:02pm:

Unlikely; but whoever did it is an incompetent idiot. If there's a God I wouldn't blame it first.

Once upon a time, an elephant was trampling through the dense jungle when his left front foot splashed in a puddle sending some tadpoles flying through the air and ending up in the centre of a giant bromeliad. The tadpoles grew up to be tiny (but strangely sentient) frogs who gained nutrition from the plants and insects that grew or were trapped by the bromeliad.

Generation after generation lived in the centre of the bromeliad, speculating about the nature of the universe, which was defined by bright red and green walls and a sky which varied from blue to grey depending on the seasons. Some speculated on how life originated in their universe, and how they were always supplied by food and water. They speculated that the universe would some day come to an end. They speculated how God must be benevolent, but some who were less content with their lot, speculated that God must be incompetent. Either way, they agreed that God must know everything and must be capable of anything.

Then one day, the Elephant happened to come back and for a moment, the little frogs saw the face of their creator god, but only for a moment, because the next moment, they saw the elephant's back leg rapidly descending on their universe.

For a split second, they considered how on earth God could be so evil as to destroy the world. Then they stopped thinking, because they were dead.

Meanwhile, the Elephant found a nice rich patch of grass and started munching contentedly, oblivious to the fact that he had just destroyed a sentient civilization.

---

What did one of the greatest thinkers in recent history have to say on the issue?

"I should say that the universe is just there, and that is all."

Thank you, Bertrand Russell.  :-/

muso wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 4:04pm:

aussiefree2ride wrote on Sep 5th, 2010 at 3:42pm: In relation to the question of the existence of God, the bronze age stone chipper probably is about on a par with Hawking.  The Bronze age chipper might have even had inside info? Well, the Bronze Age guy with the bad breath lived in a quieter society. He knew that silence was more than just a period of time that your blackberry doesn't ring. At the same time, he had some pretty ugly tribal prejudices (as well as bad teeth and halitosis.)

& he had a huge goitre hanging off his forehead, but all the girls loved him for his wit and his generous nature.  

muso wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 3:59pm:

Bobby. wrote on Sep 5th, 2010 at 12:55pm: See my thread: All Religion is Nonsense: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1276917094/0#0 The answers are there! Yeah - and as I said, I proved that my god existed, and that you couldn't prove that she didn't.

It was 50 pages long & all bases were covered.
It was a splendid win but Nail did help a bit.

You don`t kow anything about it Bobby, in this regard, science is just approaching the level of inventing the wheel.

Bobby. wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 9:39pm:

muso wrote on Sep 5th, 2010 at 3:59pm: Bobby. wrote on Sep 5th, 2010 at 12:55pm: See my thread: All Religion is Nonsense: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1276917094/0#0 The answers are there! Yeah - and as I said, I proved that my god existed, and that you couldn't prove that she didn't. It was 50 pages long & all bases were covered. It was a splendid win but Nail did help a bit.

I'll say to you what I say to anybody else with an irrational faith. Believe what you will  if it helps you or inspires you in some way :)

I just know that my God exists, unless my wife threw her out or burnt her. If she did, then it was an uncalled for superstitious act. According to superstition, if I keep the God, I will return some day to Guinea. I didn't burn my God as a symbol of my complete lack of superstition.

If I was superstitious, I would have burnt her some time ago.

aussiefree2ride wrote on Sep 6^th, 2010 at 6:47am:

You don`t kow anything about it Bobby, in this regard, science is just approaching the level of inventing the wheel.

Reality is to Science as the Australian outback is to a documentary on the subject.

muso wrote on Sep 6^th, 2010 at 9:47am:

aussiefree2ride wrote on Sep 6th, 2010 at 6:47am: You don`t kow anything about it Bobby, in this regard, science is just approaching the level of inventing the wheel. Reality is to Science as the Australian outback is to a documentary on the subject.

Boiled eggs always taste best if a little bit runny. Over cook em and they dry out.

aussiefree2ride wrote on Sep 6^th, 2010 at 1:38pm:

muso wrote on Sep 6th, 2010 at 9:47am: aussiefree2ride wrote on Sep 6th, 2010 at 6:47am: You don`t kow anything about it Bobby, in this regard, science is just approaching the level of inventing the wheel. Reality is to Science as the Australian outback is to a documentary on the subject. Boiled eggs always taste best if a little bit runny. Over cook em and they dry out.

;D

it_is_the_light wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 3:29pm:

utter hoodwink and validation of hawking being a club of rome freemason,knight of malta. the truth is within you namaste

everyone is a free mason according to you.

Bobby. wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 1:21pm:

Perceptions. Quote: Btw, if God (he or she) did create the Earth & the stars, then who created God? The answer is people created God out of their need to understand the universe & their fear of death.

Man created God in man's image ;)

muso wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 3:59pm:

Bobby. wrote on Sep 5th, 2010 at 12:55pm: See my thread: All Religion is Nonsense: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1276917094/0#0 The answers are there! Yeah - and as I said, I proved that my god existed, and that you couldn't prove that she didn't.

No you didn't. You just gave us your opinion which is evidence of nothing.

muso wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 4:01pm:

Bobby. wrote on Sep 5th, 2010 at 1:21pm: Perceptions. Quote: Btw, if God (he or she) did create the Earth & the stars, then who created God? The answer is people created God out of their need to understand the universe & their fear of death. At last  - you admitted that God exists. (I'll get bored with this argument again soon)

How can Gods creation, create the God that created them  ?

He's trying to say that God is imaginary but you're not listening as usual.

athos wrote on Sep 5^th, 2010 at 11:23am:

Ziggy wrote on Sep 3rd, 2010 at 12:52pm: Stephen Hawking has re-ignited the boundary disputes between science and religion in his latest book The Grand Design: " ‘Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing’. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist." Do you think he's got it right? Who is this bloke? Just an insignificant Pome cripple, whose already once was wrong about black holes. That's why God already marked him.

What sort of God would inflict pain and suffering on its own creation just for expressing a view on something ? The God that most people want to believe in would do this :(

God is right up there with some Finnish Reindeer high off their jingles upon some local Mushrooms and some jolly old dude is right up there with them.
This is a FACT - the very 'unglamerous' fact of what 'Santa Clause' was originally based upon from long ago. Local wildlife and people eating 'funny' mushies and in their own 'Finnish' way, they get 'high' in their sleigh.

Blaxland, Wentworth & Lawson were famously hailed as Colonial Heroes for 'Discovering' a route across the Blue Mountains.
FACT: They just asked the local Dharruk "Which way across?"

James 'syphillis' Cook was famed for 'discovering' Australia.
FACT: At least x20 other people had discovered what was well known to the Portuguese, in Spanish Territory (still is I think - legally? :-?) and known to East Africa as Ophir for a long time.

I tend to like the Zeitgeist version upon Religion, it sort of brings everything back down to earth in regards to Astronomical, Weather and Crops.

It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Sep 8^th, 2010 at 12:52pm:

God is right up there with some Finnish Reindeer high off their jingles upon some local Mushrooms and some jolly old dude is right up there with them. This is a FACT - the very 'unglamerous' fact of what 'Santa Clause' was originally based upon from long ago. Local wildlife and people eating 'funny' mushies and in their own 'Finnish' way, they get 'high' in their sleigh. Blaxland, Wentworth & Lawson were famously hailed as Colonial Heroes for 'Discovering' a route across the Blue Mountains. FACT: They just asked the local Dharruk "Which way across?" James 'syphillis' Cook was famed for 'discovering' Australia. FACT: At least x20 other people had discovered what was well known to the Portuguese, in Spanish Territory (still is I think - legally? :-?) and known to East Africa as Ophir for a long time. I tend to like the Zeitgeist version upon Religion, it sort of brings everything back down to earth in regards to Astronomical, Weather and Crops.

Yes so do I. And I'm hanging out for their 3rd DVD due out very soon ;)

If there is no God, there is no love. If there is no love, there is no life. And if life still exists without God, than is wouldbe a life in misery Steven Hawkins.

janko wrote on Sep 9^th, 2010 at 12:03pm:

If there is no God, there is no love. If there is no love, there is no life. And if life still exists without God, than is wouldbe a life in misery Steven Hawkins.

What unadulterated nonsense.

darkhall67 wrote on Sep 10^th, 2010 at 11:16am:

janko wrote on Sep 9th, 2010 at 12:03pm: If there is no God, there is no love. If there is no love, there is no life. And if life still exists without God, than is wouldbe a life in misery Steven Hawkins. What unadulterated nonsense.

The logic is appalling...and like athos' post devoid of compassion. So overall a good representation of the dogmatic religious type.