I started a thread yesterday "Why I voted Liberal"

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1282652220

There were 12 people gave the reason why they voted liberal

7 said because of the economy
0 for Health
0 for Eduction
1 for Environment
1 for Immigration
0 for Communication
0 for Kevin Rudd factor
3 Just wanted to know


So out of 9 that voted Liberal 7 said the economy was the most important thing. Is't true to have a good economy you have to have people working and paying taxes, spending money and keeping others employed.

It is also true to have a good job you need good eduction and to have a good eduction you need good school and/or training centres, then you need resources for the teachers and students. If you don't get a good eduction you don't get a job and you finish on the dole so you are not paying taxes or spending much money.

If you get sick and have to go to hospital you are not working or paying taxes. Wouldn't it be better to have good hospitals so you are not in hospital for weeks.

With communication what do you want go back to the days when Morse Code was in or would high speed communication be the go.

Some of the things the Independents want is better health, eduction and communication.

I knew it too!

Labor is so useless with the economy that having the libs is the only logical choice.

You're a genius  ::) ::)

riverina - with a good economy improvements in education, health etc are possible.

i'll probably get deleted for trying to alter a leftys view here.

I have a feeling freeloader had a thread on the forum way back with a similar theme.

Economy versus society.

And the obvious answer is that without an economy one tends not to have a society.

Or if you can call living in a cave with three thousand other miserable people because the economy crashed after the Greens got into parliamant, a society, then maybe it is possible.

But forget hospitals and schools.

They won't exist if no one pays for them.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Aug 25^th, 2010 at 10:19pm:

riverina - with a good economy improvements in education, health etc are possible.

Nope, all things are inter-connected and the 'trickle-down-effect' is a cruel myth!

Besides, as the unfortunate people of Pakistan are discovering this past fortnight: Maslov's hierarchy is of utmost importance!

Oh, and ironically: increased education, status and financial independence of women leads to lower birth rates - which in turn leads to self-limiting population growth!

Sprintcyclist wrote on Aug 25^th, 2010 at 10:19pm:

riverina - with a good economy improvements in education, health etc are possible. i'll probably get deleted for trying to alter a leftys view here.

sprintcyclist,
Given the major Economic drivers are all heading South, how do you propose to "have a good economy"?

deepthought wrote on Aug 25^th, 2010 at 10:24pm:

I have a feeling freeloader had a thread on the forum way back with a similar theme. Economy versus society. And the obvious answer is that without an economy one tends not to have a society. Or if you can call living in a cave with three thousand other miserable people because the economy crashed after the Greens got into parliamant, a society, then maybe it is possible. But forget hospitals and schools. They won't exist if no one pays for them.

deepthought,
It may have escaped your attention, so I should point out that whilst being "without an economy ONE TENDS NOT to have a society", IT IS ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that without a society, there is not economy!

perceptions_now wrote on Aug 25^th, 2010 at 10:49pm:

deepthought, It may have escaped your attention, so I should point out that whilst being "without an economy ONE TENDS NOT to have a society", IT IS ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that without a society, there is not economy!

Tell me this perceptions now, where does the cash come from which ensures we have a stable, compassionate and productive society if not the economy we have developed over time.

An economy can exist without a society, but the reverse can not be so.  For a society to function it needs the wealth generated by a functioning and successful economy.

And subsistence is not enough.  There must be surplus generated to fund the social justice we expect in our modern and compassionate society.

perceptions
Quote:

sprintcyclist, Given the major Economic drivers are all heading South, how do you propose to "have a good economy"?

get the leftys out of canberra and out of every state govt.
put them back into cleaning out the countries dunnies with their tongues.

deepthought wrote on Aug 25^th, 2010 at 11:04pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Aug 25th, 2010 at 10:49pm: deepthought, It may have escaped your attention, so I should point out that whilst being "without an economy ONE TENDS NOT to have a society", IT IS ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that without a society, there is not economy! Tell me this perceptions now, where does the cash come from which ensures we have a stable, compassionate and productive society if not the economy we have developed over time. An economy can exist without a society, but the reverse can not be so.  For a society to function it needs the wealth generated by a functioning and successful economy. And subsistence is not enough.  There must be surplus generated to fund the social justice we expect in our modern and compassionate society.

For any complex society, to exist for an extended period of time, the Society & its Economy MUST be mutually INCLUSIVE, they must support each other.

At present, the Global & OZ Society & Economy are mutually exclusive, they will destroy each other, in a relatively short period of time!

We are quickly coming to the point where the major Economic drivers will cease providing the Productivity that is required to generate the surplus needed to enable a complex society - OURS!

One of the major enablers, being Energy (Oil, Coal & Gas) is already on the "Road to nowhere", with Oil have already Peaked, Coal & Gas are set to follow within 40-50 years.

The other great enabler is Population Growth and that has been spiralling down for some time and will start going into Decline with 20-30 years, with us being unable to take actions to prevent that from ocurring, as the Decline in our Essential Resources of Energy, Food & fresh water making that impossible!  

We have 2 basic choices -
1) Extinction, via the status quo.
2) Life, via the Society & Economy finding ways to become mutually sustaining!

Sprintcyclist wrote on Aug 25^th, 2010 at 11:08pm:

perceptions Quote: sprintcyclist, Given the major Economic drivers are all heading South, how do you propose to "have a good economy"? get the leftys out of canberra and out of every state govt. put them back into cleaning out the countries dunnies with their tongues.

Gee sprinty, I hope that makes you feel better, getting that out of your system!

But, I doubt it will enable the economy to do much different?

The same Major Economic drivers will still be here, Globally & in OZ, irrespective whether Labor or Liberal are in power in Australia!

perceptions_now wrote on Aug 25^th, 2010 at 11:29pm:

For any complex society, to exist for an extended period of time, the Society & its Economy MUST be mutually INCLUSIVE, they must support each other. At present, the Global & OZ Society & Economy are mutually exclusive, they will destroy each other, in a relatively short period of time! We are quickly coming to the point where the major Economic drivers will cease providing the Productivity that is required to generate the surplus needed to enable a complex society - OURS! One of the major enablers, being Energy (Oil, Coal & Gas) is already on the "Road to nowhere", with Oil have already Peaked, Coal & Gas are set to follow within 40-50 years. The other great enabler is Population Growth and that has been spiralling down for some time and will start going into Decline with 20-30 years, with us being unable to take actions to prevent that from ocurring, as the Decline in our Essential Resources of Energy, Food & fresh water making that impossible!   We have 2 basic choices - 1) Extinction, via the status quo. 2) Life, via the Society & Economy finding ways to become mutually sustaining!

I disagree that the loss of a 'major enabler' such as oil, gas, coal will cause a loss of productivity as energy, in one form or another is a major driver of the economy.

All that will happen is that it will evolve into another form.

Wind power, solar power, (next generation) nuclear power etc.

These forms of energy generation will continue to drive jobs, power industry and support communities.

A reduction in population growth is not all bad either, though future planning (such as that implemented by the coalition to combat rising health and superannuation costs) is required to prepare society for the changes.

I do not hold such a pessimistic view as you as I believe in the resilience and intellect of humankind.

deepthought wrote on Aug 25^th, 2010 at 11:53pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Aug 25th, 2010 at 11:29pm: For any complex society, to exist for an extended period of time, the Society & its Economy MUST be mutually INCLUSIVE, they must support each other. At present, the Global & OZ Society & Economy are mutually exclusive, they will destroy each other, in a relatively short period of time! We are quickly coming to the point where the major Economic drivers will cease providing the Productivity that is required to generate the surplus needed to enable a complex society - OURS! One of the major enablers, being Energy (Oil, Coal & Gas) is already on the "Road to nowhere", with Oil have already Peaked, Coal & Gas are set to follow within 40-50 years. The other great enabler is Population Growth and that has been spiralling down for some time and will start going into Decline with 20-30 years, with us being unable to take actions to prevent that from ocurring, as the Decline in our Essential Resources of Energy, Food & fresh water making that impossible!   We have 2 basic choices - 1) Extinction, via the status quo. 2) Life, via the Society & Economy finding ways to become mutually sustaining! I disagree that the loss of a 'major enabler' such as oil, gas, coal will cause a loss of productivity as energy, in one form or another is a major driver of the economy. All that will happen is that it will evolve into another form. Wind power, solar power, (next generation) nuclear power etc. These forms of energy generation will continue to drive jobs, power industry and support communities. A reduction in population growth is not all bad either, though future planning (such as that implemented by the coalition to combat rising health and superannuation costs) is required to prepare society for the changes. I do not hold such a pessimistic view as you as I believe in the resilience and intellect of humankind.

Well seeing the Greens are the only party to put forward the way to funnell funds to develope these alternate enery sources and enable smooth and ultimatey cheaper transition you voted for them for your economic wellbeing :o

Dsmithy70 wrote on Aug 26^th, 2010 at 12:04am:

Well seeing the Greens are the only party to put forward the way to funnell funds to develope these alternate enery sources and enable smooth and ultimatey cheaper transition you voted for them for your economic wellbeing :o

Well now it gets more complex.

The Greens are not a people first party.  Their policies are based on 'the environment' as they see it.

Bob Brown said, on radio, he would like to see coal fired power stations phased out within one parliamentary term.  Despite acknowledging it would cause major dislocation.

They do not see an economy, nor a society dependent on that economy as valid.

And yet.

The ten largest wind farms in Australia were all built during the time of the coalition.  An even larger wind farm, planned during the term of the coalition was canned soon after the GALP came to power (though I believe it has come back to life as the election neared).

The coalition funded research into solar power and initiated the solar panel rebates scheme.  The GALP slashed millions of dollars from one research institute and dumped the solar rebates scheme.

The Greens are in an alliance with Labor.  In other words they support the party which has turned us back from developing alternatve energy.

deepthought wrote on Aug 25^th, 2010 at 11:53pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Aug 25th, 2010 at 11:29pm: For any complex society, to exist for an extended period of time, the Society & its Economy MUST be mutually INCLUSIVE, they must support each other. At present, the Global & OZ Society & Economy are mutually exclusive, they will destroy each other, in a relatively short period of time! We are quickly coming to the point where the major Economic drivers will cease providing the Productivity that is required to generate the surplus needed to enable a complex society - OURS! One of the major enablers, being Energy (Oil, Coal & Gas) is already on the "Road to nowhere", with Oil have already Peaked, Coal & Gas are set to follow within 40-50 years. The other great enabler is Population Growth and that has been spiralling down for some time and will start going into Decline with 20-30 years, with us being unable to take actions to prevent that from ocurring, as the Decline in our Essential Resources of Energy, Food & fresh water making that impossible!   We have 2 basic choices - 1) Extinction, via the status quo. 2) Life, via the Society & Economy finding ways to become mutually sustaining! I disagree that the loss of a 'major enabler' such as oil, gas, coal will cause a loss of productivity as energy, in one form or another is a major driver of the economy. All that will happen is that it will evolve into another form. Wind power, solar power, (next generation) nuclear power etc. These forms of energy generation will continue to drive jobs, power industry and support communities. A reduction in population growth is not all bad either, though future planning (such as that implemented by the coalition to combat rising health and superannuation costs) is required to prepare society for the changes. I do not hold such a pessimistic view as you as I believe in the resilience and intellect of humankind.

deepthought,
It seems that your ID may be a little misleading?

You may be less of the deepthought and more of the "glass half full" cheerleaders.

Well, I have to say, I would prefer not to rely on "a wing & a prayer" for the survival of humanity, which is what we are really talking about.  

Btw, there may be other forms of Energy, but there is nothing (yet known) that is capable of replacing all of the functions that Fossil Fuels are currently used for and nothing that is capable of sustaining 7-9 Billion (or more?-no it won't happen) humans, in the manner to which we have become accustomed over the last 60 years, let alone a better standard of living.

Finally, your comments on Population reduction and the coalitions Health & Superannuation costs, gives away your lack of knowledge & understanding of how these issues affect the current & future circumstances.  

The economy should be the forefront of any reason you vote.

Voting tends to be -

1) How does it affect me and my family
2) How does it affect the job, the tax I pay, the future welfare I get
3) Other facts in varying orders

The Liberals have ALWAYS delivered to me a more beneficial personal situation than Labor have.
Even if this last 3 years, Labor started to marginalise me out of getting things because I 'earned too much'.

Sorry but that's just the way it is. People should vote on how they are affected.

All this pie-in-the-sky, let's all love each other and trees rubbish of the Greens - what a load of old bollox.

12 people partook in your poll, and you are claiming 'you knew it'.

There was people like me who didnt vote on it, because you didnt have "lost absolute faith in the ALP to government effectively and to undertake any project without horrid waste".

I didnt vote Liberal because I love the Liberals, Ive voted against labor because I cant stand what they have become in power.