perceptions_now wrote on Jun 26^th, 2010 at 9:09pm:

It is in back of everything including Population, Economics, Money Supply, Energy Resources & more. Almost every time an Politician & Economist etc open their mouth, they talk about Growth.

Despite arguing about this topic in the population thread for a while, I am still not sure what perceptions_now's theory actually is.

I think we should start by getting a better explanation of it.

freediver wrote on Jun 26^th, 2010 at 11:41pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Jun 26th, 2010 at 9:09pm: It is in back of everything including Population, Economics, Money Supply, Energy Resources & more. Almost every time an Politician & Economist etc open their mouth, they talk about Growth.   Despite arguing about this topic in the population thread for a while, I am still not sure what perceptions_now's theory actually is. I think we should start by getting a better explanation of it.

He's obviously pissed, don't worry about it.
He is groping for a way to knock 'growth' but doesn't quite know how to put it.

LOL...I have found many of Perceptions' Yahoo threads extremely interesting - not least because we share many of the same over-riding concerns about demographic pressures and the irrational pursuit of economic growth for growth's sake...

I shalln't attempt to speak for Perceptions, except to say that I have coined a few deliberately-cooky phrases, in an effort try to highlight the inherent irrationalism, of promoting gambling in 'Mickey Mouse Monopoly Money' in unbridled markets and the myth of 'trickle-down' capitalism (when the reality is a 'tentacle-up effect')...

IM(not-so)HO, we need to seriously challenge, the powerfully-insidious monetary-couched market and political propaganda that is being blasted at us - incessantly and from almost every media orifice...

I, for one, don't believe in 'The (Exponential) Growth Fairy'' or his evil twin, 'The Good Greedy Witch of the West' - and there is much evidence that humanity urgently needs to make a paradigm shift in our socio-economic thinking, in order to re-balance our relationship with our life-giving environment...

Perceptions is correct, to point out that compounding global resource and demographic issues cannot be ignored by humanity for much longer - because massive pre-emptive changes must be made to give us a chance of preventing otherwise-inevitable socio-economic, political and environmental chaos and destruction...

[/quote]

Despite arguing about this topic in the population thread for a while, I am still not sure what perceptions_now's theory actually is.

I think we should start by getting a better explanation of it.[/quote]

freediver

neither does perception

you are arguing against a person who shift their paradigms from reality to theory to hypotheticals and somewhere of a grey shade in between

this person has little to no understand of these proposals/theories

the argument is more a philosophical hack who has been discredited looking for a new audience

when shown facts to disprove his lies - perception will not acknolwedge it but jump out to left field to resume another discussion then 5 minutes late used the same lies you've just disproved as facts

you can't discuss any theory with this person

Equitist wrote on Jun 27^th, 2010 at 9:18am:

LOL...I have found many of Perceptions' Yahoo threads extremely interesting

nemesis is only slightly more sane than perception

Hello pot, clearly you're already acquainted with kettle!

LOL...would you believe...that I hadn't seen that second post before I posted my first...!?

As for your own counter-productive posting habits, Macca...I see that you have already been spamming here...by duplicating the subject matter of existing threads, which are in turn being pushed-off the front page of the sub-fora...

Kindly cease and desist forthwith, ta!

::)

Perceptions_now, aka nedwin aka PiNhead is a blow hard who just likes the sound of his own voice, none of his predictions come to anything, he has been predicting a slump in house prices for years, that is why he dumped his old ID nedwin, because he has been dis-credited so many times it ain't even funny any more.
The only person who takes any notice of him is pansi the hygienically challenged, minimum wage, trolly-dolly (oh, and gold investor) and she is as daft as a brush.
I think he gets his crackpot theories from some flakey fringe publication or other, but for sure he can safely be ignored.

Equitist wrote on Jun 27^th, 2010 at 10:31am:

As for your own counter-productive posting habits, Macca...I see that you have already been spamming here...by duplicating the subject matter of existing threads, which are in turn being pushed-off the front page of the sub-fora... Kindly cease and desist forthwith, ta! ::)

ppffttt

you have nothing rational to say nemesis so the best you can do is count beans

LOL, Macca...keep both hands above the keyboard, or your beans are toast!

freediver wrote on Jun 26^th, 2010 at 11:41pm:

perceptions_now wrote on Jun 26th, 2010 at 9:09pm: It is in back of everything including Population, Economics, Money Supply, Energy Resources & more. Almost every time an Politician & Economist etc open their mouth, they talk about Growth.   Despite arguing about this topic in the population thread for a while, I am still not sure what perceptions_now's theory actually is. I think we should start by getting a better explanation of it.

I don't know about getting a better explanation, but there is more available at the following sites, for starters -

The Population Debate (Yahoo)
http://au.messages.yahoo.com/news/politics/597160/

For the Record (Yahoo)
http://au.messages.yahoo.com/news/politics/559385/

Peak Oil for Dummies slr Edition (now Maqqa formerly slr2007mclaren at Yahoo)
http://au.messages.yahoo.com/news/politics/572790/

The Climate Debate (Yahoo)
http://au.messages.yahoo.com/news/politics/595278/

Economic Downturn to Continue? (da message board - USA)
http://www.phpbbplanet.com/damessageboard/viewforum.php?f=1&mforum=damessageboard

But anyone seriously wanting to increase their knowledge of what "move the world" now & what will move it in the future, should take in & understand what is available at the following sites -

Link (Dr. Albert A. Bartlett - Arithmetic, Population, and Energy) –
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=9B70AC68E1D2AA54&search_query=Dr.+Albert+Bartlett%3A+Arithmetic%2C+Population+and+Energy+Parts+1-8

Link (The Crash Course – Chris Martenson) -
http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse

Btw, there are some good examples in those Yahoo sites, of Maqqa (alias slr) kicking a few OWN GOALS and Baha doing what Baha does!

Let me just say, as I finish this post, that I may not agree with everything that is said by freediver or others including Maqqa & Baha (in fact very little with these 2), but I do defend anyones right to express their views, providing they cause no physical &/or mental injury to others!

That said, the setting is here for some vibrant debates.

However, I should counsel against thinking there will always be clear winners, as that is seldom the case.

Absolute Clarity does come, but only ocassionally!

Soren wrote on Jun 27^th, 2010 at 12:36am:

freediver wrote on Jun 26th, 2010 at 11:41pm: perceptions_now wrote on Jun 26th, 2010 at 9:09pm: It is in back of everything including Population, Economics, Money Supply, Energy Resources & more. Almost every time an Politician & Economist etc open their mouth, they talk about Growth.   Despite arguing about this topic in the population thread for a while, I am still not sure what perceptions_now's theory actually is. I think we should start by getting a better explanation of it. He's obviously pissed, don't worry about it. He is groping for a way to knock 'growth' but doesn't quite know how to put it.

I am not "pissed", nor do I get "pissed", but I do enjoy an ocassional RED!

I am also, not here or on any other site/s to do anything, other than provide my perspective on various issues & provide information, which may not otherwise find its way "easily" to the Public!

Have a nice day!

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[quote] freediver quote Despite arguing about this topic in the population thread for a while, I am still not sure what perceptions_now's theory actually is. I think we should start by getting a better explanation of it.

Maqqa quote
freediver

neither does perception

you are arguing against a person who shift their paradigms from reality to theory to hypotheticals and somewhere of a grey shade in between

this person has little to no understand of these proposals/theories

the argument is more a philosophical hack who has been discredited looking for a new audience

when shown facts to disprove his lies - perception will not acknolwedge it but jump out to left field to resume another discussion then 5 minutes late used the same lies you've just disproved as facts

you can't discuss any theory with this person [/quote]


Believe it or not!

Maqqa, alias slr2007mclaren (at Yahoo) and I, both have something in common -
ception

I am into -
Per ception

& Maqqa is into -
De ception

Seriously, she tries to do, what she does, to the best of her ability, its just that she does everything, with only one eye open, the RIGHT eye!

bahamian wrote on Jun 27^th, 2010 at 11:20am:

Perceptions_now, aka nedwin aka PiNhead is a blow hard who just likes the sound of his own voice, none of his predictions come to anything, he has been predicting a slump in house prices for years, that is why he dumped his old ID nedwin, because he has been dis-credited so many times it ain't even funny any more. The only person who takes any notice of him is pansi the hygienically challenged, minimum wage, trolly-dolly (oh, and gold investor) and she is as daft as a brush. I think he gets his crackpot theories from some flakey fringe publication or other, but for sure he can safely be ignored.

Baha, is another from Yahoo, who makes a habit (Abbott of the Monastery supporter) of being wrong!

I am not, nor have I ever been nedwin, who was another Yahoo poster, who had some similar views to mine. The fact that he has been told of his error/s, does not stop him from repeating them!

In respect of the housing issue, it was also raised by others, not me, but I have commented that, given the basic Global Demographic trends, I would expect Australia will follow the likes of Japan, the USA & Europe, at some point and prices will decline!  

Good to see you here Baha, providing you behave yourself!

Btw, is it true that your last post on yahoo yesterday, is what shut Yahoo down, again!!!

Please stop making this personal.


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he has been predicting a slump in house prices for years

Plenty of economists are doing the same.


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I don't know about getting a better explanation, but there is more available at the following sites, for starters -

More whgat? Confusion? So you can't actually explain what you are trying to say? If you can't explain it, why do you think people would want to read those links? They obviously aren't very informative.


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Absolute Clarity does come, but only ocassionally!

Let us know if you ever get it.

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Baha he has been predicting a slump in house prices for years

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freediver Plenty of economists are doing the same.

I have no problem with Baha or anyone else, taking me to task, I am capable of answering &/or rebutting most things.

However, it would be preferable that Baha or anyone else leave some language elsewhere and not introduce personal vendettas into this or any other site!

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perceptions_now I don't know about getting a better explanation, but there is more available at the following sites, for starters -

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Freediver More whgat? Confusion? So you can't actually explain what you are trying to say? If you can't explain it, why do you think people would want to read those links? They obviously aren't very informative.

I think I post sufficient information to inform some people.

Although I would prefer to reach more, I am realistic enough to know that what I am saying will not be everyone's cuppa?

Why should people want to read the links I have posted?

Well, because there are some 30 video segments, which provide an enormous amount of information (including you question on Coal), which I could not replicate here, even if I tried and given that I regrad my time as valuable, I refer people to those sites, who may wish to acquire addition information and thus save me and my time!

Btw, I go thru an enormous amount of information, but I only post a small faction, which I think is relevant & may be of interest, to a segment of the people at this site & others.  

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perceptions_now Absolute Clarity does come, but only ocassionally!

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Freediver Let us know if you ever get it.

I will keep your request in mind, but if I have an epiphany, along the lines of which I speak, I think it likely, it will be obvious to most, at that time!

Quote:

I think I post sufficient information to inform some people.

How about you start by explaining your theory of how growth is in back of everything?


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Although I would prefer to reach more, I am realistic enough to know that what I am saying will not be everyone's cuppa?

Most people do prefer an argument that makes sense.


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which I could not replicate here

We don't want you to replicate it, just answer some basic questions to demonstrate that these videos have in fact helped you understand what is going on around you, rather than filling your head with nonsense. There is an aweful lot of total BS on internet videos. I'm not going trawling through it all in case something happens to make sense.


Quote:

Btw, I go thru an enormous amount of information, but I only post a small faction, which I think is relevant & may be of interest, to a segment of the people at this site & others.

 

So you don't think it is relevant to explain your theory, or even say how many years worth of coal we have left? It seems to me that you are giving everything but the relevant info.


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who may wish to acquire addition information and thus save me and my time!

So to save you some time, you think people should watch 30 internet videos so you don't have to answer a simple question with a one word answer?

freediver wrote on Jun 27^th, 2010 at 5:15pm:

Quote: I think I post sufficient information to inform some people. How about you start by explaining your theory of how growth is in back of everything? [quote]Although I would prefer to reach more, I am realistic enough to know that what I am saying will not be everyone's cuppa?

Most people do prefer an argument that makes sense.


Quote:

which I could not replicate here

We don't want you to replicate it, just answer some basic questions to demonstrate that these videos have in fact helped you understand what is going on around you, rather than filling your head with nonsense. There is an aweful lot of total BS on internet videos. I'm not going trawling through it all in case something happens to make sense.


Quote:

Btw, I go thru an enormous amount of information, but I only post a small faction, which I think is relevant & may be of interest, to a segment of the people at this site & others.

 

So you don't think it is relevant to explain your theory, or even say how many years worth of coal we have left? It seems to me that you are giving everything but the relevant info.


Quote:

who may wish to acquire addition information and thus save me and my time!

So to save you some time, you think people should watch 30 internet videos so you don't have to answer a simple question with a one word answer?[/quote]

I am happy that with what I put out, people can arive at their own conclusions, with the information I supply or they can go off and do their own research, if they are interested.

I have no doubt, that there are those, perhaps including yourself, who do not agree with what I post. Certainly, there are very few, who agree with everything someone else says.

That is a choice that each & every individual makes, including you!

People can go off and do their own research with or without your links. Is there something special about your links that make them more informative than a bunch of randomly selected links from google?

freediver wrote on Jun 27^th, 2010 at 6:22pm:

People can go off and do their own research with or without your links. Is there something special about your links that make them more informative than a bunch of randomly selected links from google?

Well, the Bartlett & Martenson ones, in particular, are the best I have seen, for the information they provide and they are spread over Energy, Population, Economic & other issues.

You may or may not agree with what they say, but the information they provide will give 90% of people, pause to think!

What information?

freediver wrote on Jun 27^th, 2010 at 9:48pm:

What information?

Energy, Population, Economics & more!

Have a look at these video's & you will understand, why I say -

• "it's now, one minute to noon"
  

So, until next time!

Btw, is it true that your last post on yahoo yesterday, is what shut Yahoo down, again!!!

I suspect it was nedwin, but it was an excellent post, highly offensive, funny, witty, risque, just the way I like it...so I see you are still puzzling/boring everyone here sh1tless now with your claptrap theories.

freediver wrote on Jun 27^th, 2010 at 9:48pm:

What information?

See what I mean, it drones on with it's crackpot theories but never explains them and certainly has no answers/solutions, it just blames the "baby-boomers" but I have not worked out yet what he blames them for...being born maybe?

LOL...I have found many of Perceptions' Yahoo threads extremely interesting - not least because we share many of the same over-riding concerns about demographic pressures and the irrational pursuit of economic growth for growth's sake...
=========================================


me2 .

Perception has the most informative posts & articles  that makes one who reads them hopefully more knowledged. Also may help one decide what may be important in life & to then know which party they should 'follow'.

For me,  being on dial up it saves me a hell of a lot of time. I can NOT do the same research and appreciate and also RESPECT perceptions inputs...I read them always(more than comment on his threads)..

and if perceptions is being question  I'll.....*&**%$... :'(


Leave

You don't like me asking him questions?

Do you understand his theories about growth and economics? If you could explain them on his behalf we wouldn't have to question him.

For some reason, I keep coming across this theory of exponential growth being somehow crucial to our economy. It normally leads to a claim like the only way out is communism or some other silly idea. I actually come across it more often in real life than on the internet, so I guess it is a fairly common belief. I have no idea who is pushing it or why it is so common. No one is able to explain the theory.

You don't like me asking him questions?

Do you understand his theories about growth and economics?
==========================

I welcome questioning  dont get me wrong. But are you asking for someone to  come up with 'definitive proof'  on theories?.
No one can, can they ?.

Theories are observations  then based on those observations you make predictions .  Based on predections ....yadda yadda yadda...

However you could supply information, articles, links  whatever , on the concern against  or the points your trying to debate.

However this is all a learn curve so we can never predict what will happen but certainly doesnt hurt to be aware.Then make up you own mind. .. :D

Quote:

But are you asking for someone to  come up with 'definitive proof'  on theories?.

How about we start with the theory?

PN, you referred me somewhere to this thread for an explanation of your theory:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1276844918

The closest I could find was you repeating it here:


Quote:

But, in back of everything over the last 200 years particularly, has been the steady and un-relenting growth in population that has always been the major Driver or the engine of economic growth, at national and global levels.

You haven't presented any evidence for this. You seem confused about whether you even have evidence to back it up. You even claimed that the real world evidence I presented which contradicts your theory is of as little value as your uniformed opinion.

Can you explain the situation with the evidence? Did you just make it up?

freediver wrote on Jul 25^th, 2010 at 9:07pm:

PN, you referred me somewhere to this thread for an explanation of your theory: http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1276844918 The closest I could find was you repeating it here: Quote: But, in back of everything over the last 200 years particularly, has been the steady and un-relenting growth in population that has always been the major Driver or the engine of economic growth, at national and global levels. You haven't presented any evidence for this. You seem confused about whether you even have evidence to back it up. You even claimed that the real world evidence I presented which contradicts your theory is of as little value as your uniformed opinion. Can you explain the situation with the evidence? Did you just make it up?

Just wondering FD, have you thought about going onto Australian Idol?

I'm thinking, given your above comment, you could do well as a stand up comedian?

As I have said, a number of times, repeating the same comment still won't make it valid or correct!

It is a question I am repeating, not a comment. Is my question invalid?

Quote:

FD It is a question I am repeating, not a comment. Is my question invalid?

As I have said before, you say neither, I say niether!

It seems apparent, to me, that you really have little to no interest in what I am talking about and you are certainly not going to agree with much that I say.

Given the information & views that I have posted on here, in terms of personal statements, general information & articles, it seems apparent that if you don't already understand what I am saying and where I am comming from, then you never will.

Whether you agree with it or not, is a separate question, as is my understanding of your views, versus whether I agree with them and just to re-iterate, I have said quite often that I do agree with you in a number of areas, but not in some others?

So, whether you call it a question or a comment, yes it is invalid & No, I have no interest in playing games, by your rules!  

Quote:

As I have said before, you say neither, I say niether!

We are not saying the same thing. I am saying the opposite to what you claim.


Quote:

It seems apparent, to me, that you really have little to no interest in what I am talking about and you are certainly not going to agree with much that I say.

On the contrary. I have a great interest in some of your comments. Here is one of them:


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But, in back of everything over the last 200 years particularly, has been the steady and un-relenting growth in population that has always been the major Driver or the engine of economic growth, at national and global levels.

Quote:

Given the information & views that I have posted on here, in terms of personal statements, general information & articles, it seems apparent that if you don't already understand what I am saying and where I am comming from, then you never will.

I think I understand it, though I admit it is a very vague statement and you have been rather reluctant to get specific about it. What I have no idea at all about is why you think that - where is the evidence? Did someone just tell you one day and you believed them?


Quote:

So, whether you call it a question or a comment, yes it is invalid

I don't get why you think the fact that we agree on some things and disagree on others makes my question invalid. Can you explain?

All I am asking for is evidence to back up your claim. Even if you could explain why you think that, that would be a massive improvement on declaring my question invalid.


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& No, I have no interest in playing games, by your rules!

What rules would they be? Do you have a problem with the concept of providing evidence to back up your claims?

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perceptions_now As I have said before, you say neither, I say niether!

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FD We are not saying the same thing. I am saying the opposite to what you claim.

===========
Well, that's partly correct, but partly not!

On most ocassions, you do seem to disagree, perhaps to get your ratings up?

However, as I have said, there are issues on which WE have agreed, so you DO NOT ALWAYS SAY THE OPPOSITE.

And, as the following shows, we aparently DO AGREE (at least partially) on what is & will be one of the greatest issue of our times, Over-Population.

Where we may differ is the related issues of Population in general, the aging of our Population and all that goes with it, including the great enabler of Energy (Oil & others) - BUT, HEY, YOU GET THAT, 7 BILLION PEOPLE, 7 BILLION IDEAS OF WHAT IS RIGHT!
===========

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freediver We are overcoming the biggest problem threatening our way of life

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perceptions_now And, what problem would that be?

Quote:

freediver wrote on Jun 23rd, 2010, 7:15pm: Overpopulation.

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perceptions_now I agree, that is the absolute centre of many of our problems and that it is slowing before finally going into reverse in 20-30 years!

So basically you are refusing to answer my question because you agree with me?

freediver wrote on Jul 29^th, 2010 at 9:05pm:

So basically you are refusing to answer my question because you agree with me?

No, just pointing out that you were incorrect, when you said, "We are not saying the same thing. I am saying the opposite to what you claim."

And, am I refusing to provide information, no!

Most of what you may want to know about my ideas, of what factors are influencing of lives & will continue to do so, are substantially already here, in this & other threads of mine, if you can not find the, that's your problem, your probably not looking hard enough, perhaps you need to put your glasses on.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/farm10_001.jpg

As I said, I have no interest in playing games!

perceptions_now wrote on Jul 25^th, 2010 at 1:43pm:

We know that soaring Population Growth will engender Economic Growth

Have we really? Do you have the evidence that the population growth 'engendered' the economics growth? Is this the elusive evidence that you can't make up your mind whether you have?

Also, don't you think it is strange to keep repeating this assertion, without evidence, while trying to keep it as vague as possible by avoiding direct and meaningful words like 'cause'? We have seen 'engendered', 'in back of' etc. Are you trying to say it but give yourself an out in case anyone accuses you of saying it?


Quote:

No, just pointing out that you were incorrect, when you said, "We are not saying the same thing. I am saying the opposite to what you claim."

It is hard to believe how stupid this conversion is becoming. Think context PN. I obviously did not mean to say that every point you make, I say the exact opposite. It seems you are trying to discuss anything at all except the simple question I am asking, no matter how absurd it gets.


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And, am I refusing to provide information, no!

I guess not. That would require you to actually make a stand. You seem to prefer repeating the same unsubstantiated claim and simply ignoring requests for the evidence.


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if you can not find the, that's your problem, your probably not looking hard enough, perhaps you need to put your glasses on.

So you can't back yourself up, and it is my fault?