I watched the movie “Temple Grandin” last night (the famous high functioning autistic woman) and have been reading about her since she was raised to prominence by Oliver Sacks in his book “An Anthropologist on Mars”.

Her claim is that she cannot think in words, only in pictures and, while most of us, to some degree, think in pictures (or at least are conscious of it) she claims to think exclusively in pictures – which is why she can understand animal minds so easily.

This concept (thinking in pictures) is fundamental to Tony Buzan’s ideas of mind mapping. He claims that all great original thinkers thought in pictures (e.g. Leonardo da Vinci) and to demonstrate its potential he has used his mind mapping techniques on troubled underachieving children who, after 6 months, manifested improvements up to 5 times greater than what would have been expected.

Grandin claims that word thinking masks or disengages the primary instinct of picture (or sensory) thinking such that our thoughts are largely restricted to what words allow us to think.

Maybe our obsession with language skills blinds us (pun intended) to the brain’s primary motivation – sensory based thinking - to the point that (as Grandin claims) we devalue education in art.

Here she is on TED

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn_9f5x0f1Q

As the mother of an autistic child, I have mixed feelings about Temple Grandin. When my daughter was first diagnosed, Temple's achievements gave me hope that she could live a relatively normal and independent life. As time passed and my little girl made so much progress, I began to hope for more for her. Marriage etc. While Temple seems happy enough with her animals, it seems to be a lonely existence.



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Grandin claims that word thinking masks or disengages the primary instinct of picture (or sensory) thinking such that our thoughts are largely restricted to what words allow us to think. Maybe our obsession with language skills blinds us (pun intended) to the brain’s primary motivation – sensory based thinking - to the point that (as Grandin claims) we devalue education in art.

I love this. Spot on.

Annie Anthrax wrote on May 10^th, 2010 at 11:15am:

As the mother of an autistic child, I have mixed feelings about Temple Grandin. When my daughter was first diagnosed, Temple's achievements gave me hope that she could live a relatively normal and independent life. As time passed and my little girl made so much progress, I began to hope for more for her. Marriage etc. While Temple seems happy enough with her animals, it seems to be a lonely existence.

Sorry to hear about your daughter. Grandin herself does stress that she is not cured of her autism and its near certain that autistic people will never be socially integrated (not in the neuro-typical sense). That's the brute fact of the disorder. However, as Grandin reiterates over and over, that does not mean the autistic person cannot be happy and live a fulfilled life... As Grandin's mother insisted and fought family and doctors to prove... "Temple is different not less"... And that is how Grandin has lived her life.

I don't see any reason to think that Temple Grandin is unhappy... On the contrary, she seems positively enlivened, passionate and animated in her quest for animal rights and the advancement of autistic people. How many neuro-typical people do you know who wouldn't achieve even a fraction of what Grandin has done... Who have to live with a feeling of emptiness even with all the "benefits" of "normal" social integration.

"Neuro-typical" lol

Helian posting on wrongplanet.net

ONE DAY THE NORMIES WILL ACCEPT US

You're a classy dude, Imperium.

You should see me when I'm drunk.

No thanks. You make me sick to my stomach as it is.

No fair!

aikmann4 wrote on May 10^th, 2010 at 1:19pm:

"Neuro-typical" lol Helian posting on wrongplanet.net ONE DAY THE NORMIES WILL ACCEPT US

Actually that's exactly where I first read the term. I have a close family member who has Asperger's.

Yeah, I have Aspergers Syndrome too (though admittedly I don't really think I have suffered any, or many, of the symptoms since I was about eighteen). I do like poking fun at many of the people who have it though and their funny expressions like "neurotypical" and "normie".

aikmann4 wrote on May 10^th, 2010 at 1:56pm:

Yeah, I have Aspergers Syndrome too (though admittedly I don't really think I have suffered any, or many, of the symptoms since I was about eighteen). I do like poking fun at many of the people who have it though and their funny expressions like "neurotypical" and "normie".

No one seems to mind admitting it these days... whether they have the disorder or not, I'm guessing... It's cool to count the likes of Einstein and Mozart as "brothers".

How many of those "this historical figure has Aspergers" things have any validity at all though? I've seen nearly every brilliant person in history classified with the disorder. The only ones I have acknowledged that may have been right were Adolf Hitler and Enoch Powell, but even then I'm still not convinced at all. Maybe the thing that truly makes these brilliant supposedly Autistic people brilliant is the fact that they were all incredibly intelligent. For every successful brilliant person with Aspergers, there's another 1000 sitting in their basements playing World of Warcraft all day.

aikmann4 wrote on May 10^th, 2010 at 2:10pm:

How many of those "this historical figure has Aspergers" things have any validity at all though? I've seen nearly every brilliant person in history classified with the disorder. The only ones I have acknowledged that may have been right were Adolf Hitler and Enoch Powell, but even then I'm still not convinced at all. Maybe the thing that truly makes these brilliant supposedly Autistic people brilliant is the fact that they were all incredibly intelligent.

Sure... But if you want to achieve something that requires attention to detail and a lot of time, it sure helps to have a naturally extraordinarily focussed mind... There are countless thousands more incredibly intelligent people without Asperger's who do bugger all with their lives...


aikmann4 wrote on May 10^th, 2010 at 2:10pm:

For every successful brilliant person with Aspergers, there's another 1000 sitting in their basements playing World of Warcraft all day.

Yep... Or collecting strange objects... Like matchboxes or (as an Asperger on the radio the other day admitted) empty underarm spray canisters.

Interestingly, Grandin herself pours scorn on computer gaming for exactly the reason you're alluding to. It wastes or distracts a potentially gifted mind from doing something significant with his innate capacity to focus.

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Sure... But if you want to achieve something that requires attention to detail and a lot of time, it sure helps to have a naturally extraordinarily focussed mind

Oh, no doubt. The supposed "obsessions" that people with Aspergers have over intensely specific subjects (I Have never had one -- and no,  don't try saying that race and human biological differences is "my" obsession ;) ) could be extremely useful in becoming incredibly accomplished and successful in a field. But even in these cases, it just goes to show that Aspergers is just part of the equation, with the other being high intelligence -- but the highly intelligent, Aspergers or not, tend to do extremely well in the things they set their minds to regardless (look at the disproportionate successes of the Ashkenazi Jews). I've heard somebody say that Da Vinci had Aspergers for instance, but he was a polymath. Most of those post-mortem psychological diagnoses don't add up.


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Yep... Or collecting strange objects... Like matchboxes or (as an Asperger on the radio the other day admitted) empty underarm spray canisters.

Yep. I'm not really sold on the idea that overall, Aspergers and the the other disorders on the "Autistic spectrum" are societal enrichments.

aikmann4 wrote on May 10^th, 2010 at 2:30pm:

and no,  don't try saying that race and human biological differences is "my" obsession ;) )

Wouldn't dream of it ;)


aikmann4 wrote on May 10^th, 2010 at 2:30pm:

could be extremely useful in becoming incredibly accomplished and successful in a field. But even in these cases, it just goes to show that Aspergers is just part of the equation, with the other being high intelligence -- but the highly intelligent, Aspergers or not, tend to do extremely well in the things they set their minds to regardless (look at the disproportionate successes of the Ashkenazi Jews).

That's the great surprise in life... When the one with the average IQ who becomes motivated to achieve something and doesn't let go finds he exceeds his own expectations.

When the need is great...

"Possunt, quia posse videntur" - they can because they think they can

True too. The only problem with all of it is that people with Aspergers don't get to pick their obsessions.. so for every dynamo with an obsession in quantum mechanics, you get another thousand "collecting matchboxes" or playing World of Warcraft all day.

It's a horrible situation! Those individuals Temple Grandin complained about pouring their lives away on their computers probably feel exactly the same way about her -- who cares about being successful and accomplished and making lots of money when I can play Guild Wars and collect Matchboxes all day!

aikmann4 wrote on May 10^th, 2010 at 2:41pm:

It's a horrible situation! Those individuals Temple Grandin complained about pouring their lives away on their computers probably feel exactly the same way about her -- who cares about being successful and accomplished and making lots of money when I can play Guild Wars and collect Matchboxes all day!

She was addressing the parents and educators of autistic children... She suggested that they are the ones with the responsibility to help the autistic child turn on to a productive idea they can build a worthwhile life pursuing. I'm not saying it's easy...

To let kids remain undeveloped in key areas because it's easier to leave them gaming all day than doing the hard yards was what she was railing against.

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To let kids remain undeveloped in key areas because it's easier to leave them gaming all day than doing the hard yards was what she was railing against.

That's true. Parents need to understand that what is easier in the short term can make everybody's life more difficult in the long run.

However, I don't agree that parents need to embrace and accept autism or autistic traits, as some people within the autism community propose.

Well maybe in some cases that could work. But as we have seen time and time again,  the ingrained influences of the home environment tend to evaporate as one passes into adulthood. Not in all cases of course; but unfortunately (and perhaps fortunately in many cases), it happens a lot more than we want. Those creepy identical-twins-separated-at-birth studies that show that the rule is that they always seem to have eerily similar or identical interests sold that fact for me.

Sure, there's stuff that can be done though. That's not exactly what I'm thinking about though. I'm just pondering whether or not the existence of Aspergers and other Autism Spectrum disorders has a net-positive influence on society, and if they would even if every parent put in the "hard yards" (if that were even possible). This question could move beyond philosophical musings in the future if or when we have the ability to predict cognitive syndromes and disorders in potential offspring. Would the disappearance of Autism from the human race be a net benefit or loss?

Who knows. My money is on benefit. There'll be no stopping it in my mind, if it is possible, though. Same goes, probably, for Homosexuality.

Annie Anthrax wrote on May 10^th, 2010 at 3:13pm:

However, I don't agree that parents need to embrace and accept autism or autistic traits, as some people within the autism community propose.

I defer to you with direct first hand experience of this... Is it possible, do you think, to overcome autism or just the symptoms of autism? The guy I referred to earlier (the empty spray canisters) said he was able to (by second nature) simulate intimate relationships because he had intensive therapy as a child... But he was only mildly autistic. Grandin mentioned in one of her interviews that if she let her autism "take over", she would regress... which indicates she must work hard to remain engaged with the world.

aikmann4 wrote on May 10^th, 2010 at 3:18pm:

Sure, there's stuff that can be done though. That's not exactly what I'm thinking about though. I'm just pondering whether or not the existence of Aspergers and other Autism Spectrum disorders has a net-positive influence on society, and if they would even if every parent put in the "hard yards" (if that were even possible). This question could move beyond philosophical musings in the future if or when we have the ability to predict cognitive syndromes and disorders in potential offspring. Would the disappearance of Autism from the human race be a net benefit or loss? Who knows. My money is on benefit. There'll be no stopping it in my mind, if it is possible, though. Same goes, probably, for Homosexuality.

That's a sad statement of self-denigration, Imperium... Do you see yourself somewhat as a burden on society?

aikmann4 wrote on May 10^th, 2010 at 3:18pm:

Would the disappearance of Autism from the human race be a net benefit or loss?

If it was gone, at the very least, we non-autistics would lose an opportunity to practise the virtue of compassion.

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Is it possible, do you think, to overcome autism or just the symptoms of autism?

My daughter was competely non-verbal until she was almost 5. She didn't want to interact with us, avoided eye contact etc. She wanted to spend her day spinning in front of the radio or jumping on the trampoline.

We spent every spare cent we had on ABA therapy (which we chose after doing a lot of research because it had proven results), and when the money ran out I learnt to design and implement the programs myself. I also did the Hanen program which teaches parents how to provide speech therapy at home.

She's 8 now. This is her first year in a mainstream school. She has friends, tells us she loves us all the time, is a brilliant gymnast and swimmer, and rarely spends any time alone. At her old school she received the student of the year award. There are no problems with change or stimming at all. The only 'residue' left is that her speech is a little thick - kinda like a deaf child, which we're working on through play based programs.

She's worked hard and I'm incredibly proud of her.

So yes, I do believe that children can be recovered from some types of autism.

No doubt about it, for the first eighteen years or so of my life, I was a total loser. I can certainly ascribe a portion of this loserdom to Aspergers, but as I have said, my Aspergers was always weak (so other contributing factors where probably more important), and now it is even weaker. I don't consider myself a burden at all anymore -- I'm on the dole at present, but this is because I'm currently between jobs, and not because I'm a bludger (and it's really hard to get a job at present). I didn't complete high-school so it is difficult for me to land a decent job, so my employment history includes some of the most mindnumbing and dull (though I didn't mind them) jobs that could be dreamt up -- staring at a conveyer belt transporting sheep entrails for eight hours a day, five days a week was one of them. I'm currently accumulating savings to go to University; I know I can just get support like any other student, but I want to have enough money to be reasonably comfortable and support myself fully for when I go. I don't know if this qualifies as a societal burden.

I don't self-loathe, but self-loathing or not, I would still be thinking that question to myself. The more I learn, and the more we, our collective body of knowledge, learns, about the biological realities that mankind is ultimately burdened and restrained, the more I am intrigued and the more I ask. Even if that means knowing and confronting the very physical and psychological limitations of myself.

aikmann4 wrote on May 10^th, 2010 at 3:53pm:

I'm on the dole at present, but this is because I'm currently between jobs, and not because I'm a bludger (and it's really hard to get a job at present). I didn't complete high-school so it is difficult for me to land a decent job, so my employment history includes some of the most mindnumbing and dull (though I didn't mind them) jobs that could be dreamt up -- staring at a conveyer belt transporting sheep entrails for eight hours a day, five days a week was one of them.

Pure Bukowski! At one time one of my favourite authors. Read "Factotum" or "Post Office". There are Bukowski fans in the US who compete with each other over who's held the most mind-numbing job ;D


aikmann4 wrote on May 10^th, 2010 at 3:53pm:

I'm currently accumulating savings to go to University; I know I can just get support like any other student, but I want to have enough money to be reasonably comfortable and support myself fully for when I go. I don't know if this qualifies as a societal burden.

Not that heavy a burden... In my Utopia, we don't mind giving people a leg up.


aikmann4 wrote on May 10^th, 2010 at 3:53pm:

I don't self-loathe, but self-loathing or not, I would still be thinking that question to myself. The more I learn, and the more we, our collective body of knowledge, learns, about the biological realities that mankind is ultimately burdened and restrained, the more I am intrigued and the more I ask. Even if that means knowing and confronting the very physical and psychological limitations of myself.

Confront away...

"Suffering is the consequence of struggle,
Struggle, the price of challenge,
Challenge, the precondition for a sense of value...
From value, comes meaning"

If you're not willing to suffer, you'll never know meaning.

Quote:

Not that heavy a burden... In my Utopia, we don't mind giving people a leg up.

I still try to avoid welfare when and where possible, but I am not completely opposed to it in some form. The entire teritary education system in this country and other Anglo countries is rotten and dysfunctional (and I'm not talking about curriculums either -- though obviously I don't think highly of those either) and needs major reformation, but because I won't be the person to change it I need to take part in it or else I'll be staring at conveyor belts for the rest of my life. ;D

Annie Anthrax wrote on May 10^th, 2010 at 3:46pm:

Quote: Is it possible, do you think, to overcome autism or just the symptoms of autism? My daughter was competely non-verbal until she was almost 5. She didn't want to interact with us, avoided eye contact etc. She wanted to spend her day spinning in front of the radio or jumping on the trampoline. We spent every spare cent we had on ABA therapy (which we chose after doing a lot of research because it had proven results), and when the money ran out I learnt to design and implement the programs myself. I also did the Hanen program which teaches parents how to provide speech therapy at home. She's 8 now. This is her first year in a mainstream school. She has friends, tells us she loves us all the time, is a brilliant gymnast and swimmer, and rarely spends any time alone. At her old school she received the student of the year award. There are no problems with change or stimming at all. The only 'residue' left is that her speech is a little thick - kinda like a deaf child, which we're working on through play based programs. She's worked hard and I'm incredibly proud of her. So yes, I do believe that children can be recovered from some types of autism.

Annie that's great news... Obviously there's a lot more possibility of overcoming the disorder than most of us realise.

I watched that Temple Grandin 'TED' talk, when it first came around, and what I took away from it was a little different.
While I certainly recognise the importance of developing better understanding of people who think differently, the primary message I got was that our education system is way to narrow in it's focus, and things like art, dance, and drama, need to be mainstream subjects alongside numeracy and literacy.

We need to be developing more well rounded people, by offering a more well rounded education to them.

I think by expanding the curriculum to include these more artistic types of subjects, we will allow more children to share the feeling of possibility and achievement that a good education should offer them.

mozzaok wrote on May 10^th, 2010 at 5:00pm:

I watched that Temple Grandin 'TED' talk, when it first came around, and what I took away from it was a little different. While I certainly recognise the importance of developing better understanding of people who think differently, the primary message I got was that our education system is way to narrow in it's focus, and things like art, dance, and drama, need to be mainstream subjects alongside numeracy and literacy. We need to be developing more well rounded people, by offering a more well rounded education to them. I think by expanding the curriculum to include these more artistic types of subjects, we will allow more children to share the feeling of possibility and achievement that a good education should offer them.

Not sure that what you took away was much different, except that Grandin's focus was on education for autistics... Although her ideas could obviously equally apply to non-autistic children.

I don't think our educational system is 'narrow' in its focus. It's crap, yeah. But hardly narrow. I spent an inordinate amount of time when I was at school performing wishywashy progressive curriculum b.s in class and there was a hell of a lot of art. Heaps of optional art classes in my high school as well, and everybody (including myself) used them as a way to cop out of having to do harder work. Schools have a limited amount of time when it comes to what they can teach, so the good bulk of that time is spent teaching students the subjects that they will most apply in our later lives, and even then most don't come out with even a rudimentary understanding of them. I agree that there should be more vocational learning though (for a certain percentage of students). When it comes to subjects like music, art and dance, there's only a very limited number of people who are capable of truly filling a limited number of positions for them in the real world. For most kids, it's a lot better just to use the limited time they have in school to teach them how to perform arithmetic or read a bus timetable more competently then to draw a little better. Everybody can make use of a mediocre meter-reader or clerk, but a mediocre dancer is of absolutely no use to anybody beyond drunken night-club buffoons.

aikmann4 wrote on May 10^th, 2010 at 5:26pm:

Everybody can make use of a mediocre meter-reader or clerk, but a mediocre dancer is of absolutely no use to anybody beyond drunken night-club buffoons.

;D

lol indeed, that was funny imp, but sadly incredibly wide of the mark.
We all love to dance, we all love to sing, and we al love to act, but we expect these talents to appear miraculously, without training or nurturing those talents until a child displays some sign of being gifted in one of those areas.

To not teach them to all kids would be like not teaching kids to read and write until they display a brilliant innate flair for language, or maths unless the child is a human calculator anyway.

To leave it until kids are teens, too afraid of looking uncool to ever try anything they may not be naturally good at, is possibly leaving it a bit late, but to have it in preschools, and primary schools will see kids developing a degree of proficiency, and a natural respect for areas to long neglected.

Annie Anthrax wrote on May 10^th, 2010 at 3:46pm:

So yes, I do believe that children can be recovered from some types of autism.

Annie, your daughter's lucky to have family dedicated to giving her all the encouragement and assistance she needs.

I have only ever met Apserger's people and although most are at least a little odd, they're not as afflicted as those further along the spectrum.

mozzaok wrote on May 10^th, 2010 at 7:50pm:

lol indeed, that was funny imp, but sadly incredibly wide of the mark. We all love to dance, we all love to sing, and we al love to act, but we expect these talents to appear miraculously, without training or nurturing those talents until a child displays some sign of being gifted in one of those areas. To not teach them to all kids would be like not teaching kids to read and write until they display a brilliant innate flair for language, or maths unless the child is a human calculator anyway. To leave it until kids are teens, too afraid of looking uncool to ever try anything they may not be naturally good at, is possibly leaving it a bit late, but to have it in preschools, and primary schools will see kids developing a degree of proficiency, and a natural respect for areas to long neglected.

I don't think I was saying that these skills just spontaneously come into being. Many kinds of genius are predicated upon diligence and persistence. As you wrote (and I assumed) in your previous post, subjects like dance, art, and drama should be elevated in school curriculums so the time assigned for their teaching would be on par, or at least approaching, the time spent spent on math, reading and writing. This is where I take objection. Maybe you weren't saying that. Of course, I'm not saying that these subjects should be taught, but frankly, they are not useful skills for the vast majority of students, even the ones that are extremely intelligent. It is a good thing to include such subjects in curriculums however; pinpointing the gifted who would not ordinarily be discovered outside school is a worthy endeavour. You can figure out who is worth nurturing in particular fields pretty early too.

It might even be a good idea after we discover who the genuinely artistically talented are to allow them the option of a different curriculum with a greater emphasis on art. Customized curriculums that suit the strengths and weaknesses of particular students, earlier than they are introduced now, is an idea I've always thought was a pretty good one. Too much time is wasted at present trying to teach simpletons trignometry rather than knowing how to calculate the basic interest in a loan.

I just had a brainflash for psychometric examinations that attempt to approximate artistic, musical etc. aptitude with high validity (according to a standard, of course). I wonder if it's possible?

you aren't getting it Imp, it is about providing a wholistic approach to education, and development, and it is in the early childhood, and primary school kids that we need to concentrate, while their brains are still making connections like they never will again.
It is about opening up pathways to allow people to more fully utilise at least a little more of what our minds can do for us.

When we learn to use more of our brains, we may become more flexible in how we employ them, which would serve us well to meet the challenges of a changing world.

At the very least it is worth trying, because the worst case scenario is that more kids could enjoy school, and fewer may feel excluded, among other positives.

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Re: Thinking In Pictures Reply #34 - Today at 1:05am Alert Board Moderator about this Post! Quote you aren't getting it Imp, it is about providing a wholistic approach to education, and development, and it is in the early childhood, and primary school kids that we need to concentrate, while their brains are still making connections like they never will again.

Any evidence that what is taught in schools already doesn't already satisfy these goals? Is there any evidence that a more 'holistic approach to education' (if what we have already now doesn't approach or equal that) allow us to fully 'utilise what our minds will do for us?', whatever that means. All sounds very vague to me. I don't even know what you objected to in my previous post.


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because the worst case scenario is that more kids could enjoy school

The worst case scenario of what I think you're proposing (but am unsure) is probably a whole lot of people who are more undeveloped in areas that really matter than they should be. Not exactly disasterous, but mildly pernicious, not to mention a waste of time and money.

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 10^th, 2010 at 4:25pm:

Annie Anthrax wrote on May 10th, 2010 at 3:46pm: Quote: Is it possible, do you think, to overcome autism or just the symptoms of autism? My daughter was competely non-verbal until she was almost 5. She didn't want to interact with us, avoided eye contact etc. She wanted to spend her day spinning in front of the radio or jumping on the trampoline. We spent every spare cent we had on ABA therapy (which we chose after doing a lot of research because it had proven results), and when the money ran out I learnt to design and implement the programs myself. I also did the Hanen program which teaches parents how to provide speech therapy at home. She's 8 now. This is her first year in a mainstream school. She has friends, tells us she loves us all the time, is a brilliant gymnast and swimmer, and rarely spends any time alone. At her old school she received the student of the year award. There are no problems with change or stimming at all. The only 'residue' left is that her speech is a little thick - kinda like a deaf child, which we're working on through play based programs. She's worked hard and I'm incredibly proud of her. So yes, I do believe that children can be recovered from some types of autism. Annie that's great news... Obviously there's a lot more possibility of overcoming the disorder than most of us realise.

Wow. That is a wonderful story. I cannot imagine the hard work you had to go through but I can imagine the love and willingness to go to the poor house if needs be. Thank you for sharing that. :)

Any attempt to teach children to dance in school is bound to crush their spirit rather than inspire them. Remember, school curriculums have to be something that not only all children, but all parents are willing to have imposed on their children. That rules out anything fun or interesting. I remember being taught the heel and toe polka in primary school. I tried it out in a nightclub some time later, but it just didn't cut it. A surprising success was reciting Shakespear, though obviously in a different setting.

freediver wrote on May 17^th, 2010 at 7:26pm:

I remember being taught the heel and toe polka in primary school. I tried it out in a nightclub some time later, but it just didn't cut it.

I dunno if I think in pictures... But I'm getting that image loud and clear.

I'm not gonna touch it, but geez I think with a bit of a workshop you could knock that one out of the park.