This one I fully believe, with my experiences with brits.
Its in their psychioology and weather.



Quote:

LONDON: Millions of British people are unhappy, isolated and unable to cope with profound changes in the workplace, relationships and family life, according to a study. It portrays Britain as a psychologically fragile society in which increased wealth has been accompanied by soaring levels of individual isolation and stress. Although welfare services have made big strides in tackling material poverty, they have failed to get a grip on the growing problems of mental illness and distress caused by the rise of individualism and family breakdown, it says. ''The UK [is a] largely happy country, but one with many unhappy people … too many parts of British society are brittle, vulnerable to shocks, stressed and … close to the edge,'' says the report, published yesterday by the Young Foundation and backed by 13 big charitable foundations. The report argues that the welfare state has evolved to meet physical and material needs such as providing enough to eat, places to live and cures for illness. But despite material abundance, society's ability to meet psychological and psycho-social needs ''appears to have declined''. Many people are more vulnerable to life shocks such as bereavement, unemployment and relationship breakdown, it says, because traditional social networks from the church to the family have declined. ''Some of the shock absorbers - from faith to family - that helped us cope in the past have atrophied,'' the study says.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/living-on-the-brink-britons-unhappy-lonely-and-unable-to-cope-study-finds-20091207-kfg1.html

Ah well... Maybe a drunken rampage across continental Europe over Christmas will cheer them up... It usually does... ;D

Quote:

Its in their psychioology and weather.

Yes it is.  The weather is so gloomy most of the time, but they are known generally to be whingers. Maybe it's because life is so easy now for them they have nothing to struggle for anymore.

They are not alone in family breakdowns and mental illness - it's everywhere now - even here.  10% of our population is supposed to be mentally ill.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 8^th, 2009 at 8:32am:

Ah well... Maybe a drunken rampage across continental Europe over Christmas will cheer them up... It usually does... ;D

The younger Brits (men at least) seem to target Estonia and Latvia these days. The price of living is low, and the women are 'available'.

I stayed in a fairly affluent region when I was there this year (NE Scotland), so all I saw was optimism.

Sprint - It's much like Kiwis in terms of the weather influence. They love to winge too. Of course, they have the added problem of Selenium deficiency. They just drop like flies when a mild cold does the rounds  ;D

They can't handle the heat either. Anything above 25 and - Oh shut! we'll hev ta turn the ear condutioning on  :D

muso wrote on Dec 8^th, 2009 at 8:55am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 8th, 2009 at 8:32am: Ah well... Maybe a drunken rampage across continental Europe over Christmas will cheer them up... It usually does... ;D The younger Brits (men at least) seem to target Estonia and Latvia these days.

Where all you'll hear at 2:00 AM over a crash of broken glass is "Fook off, coont... Don't forget who won the fookin war".

Quote:

Ticking away the moments that make up a dull day You fritter and waste the hours in an offhand way. Kicking around on a piece of ground in your home town Waiting for someone or something to show you the way. Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain. You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today. And then one day you find ten years have got behind you. No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun. So you run and you run to catch up with the sun but it's sinking Racing around to come up behind you again. The sun is the same in a relative way but you're older, Shorter of breath and one day closer to death. Every year is getting shorter never seem to find the time. Plans that either come to naught or half a page of scribbled lines Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way The time is gone, the song is over, Thought I'd something more to say.

Time
(Mason, Waters, Wright, Gilmour) 7:06

Floyd at their greatest...

mantra wrote on Dec 8^th, 2009 at 8:42am:

Quote: Its in their psychioology and weather. Yes it is.  The weather is so gloomy most of the time, but they are known generally to be whingers. Maybe it's because life is so easy now for them they have nothing to struggle for anymore. They are not alone in family breakdowns and mental illness - it's everywhere now - even here.  10% of our population is supposed to be mentally ill.

mantra,

Looking at the general state of the 'West', i woulda put the figure of mental illness as being much, much, higher.

Mankind, is on a slippery slope, and everybody, is trying so hard, to enjoy the 'ride' down,
....to the lowest moral common denominator.          :D

How low can we go???

Godless creatures.

Reaping, what we have chosen to sow.






2 Timothy 3:1
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2  For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3  Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4  Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

That description, doesn't sound at all, like the world that mankind has made, does it!
/sarc off

God's warning, to those with eyes to see,
And when you see all of this 'fruit' on the 'fig tree', know that 'summer' is near.

Matthew 24:32
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Psalms 1:1
Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

off topic comment yadda

also repeatative, overbearing  and unoriginal

Sprintcyclist wrote on Dec 8^th, 2009 at 1:34pm:

off topic comment yadda also repeatative, overbearing  and unoriginal

sprint,

Only so much as you are speaking to the symptom.

While i presume to speak to the cause.



....but i realise, that my opinion is not respected.

Yadda, the village loon.        :D

Yadda wrote on Dec 8^th, 2009 at 1:53pm:

....but i realise, that my opinion is not respected. Yadda, the village loon.        :D

Actually no - I thought it was rather nice to have some scripture quoted for a change  ::)

and they say it is the lowest form of wit?
I can't agree, I often find it hilarious.

I also cannot agree with the findings of the study about brits, now I have not been there for nearly 30 years, but I doubt the "basic' Psychology of a nation would have altered that dramatically.
I found brits to be pretty fatalistic, but also madly keen for a bit of fun, and the party life is great.
Girls are pretty, and friendly, guys are up for a chat, or a drink, or a game of cricket or footy, in fact, they were pretty bloody much like us aussies, so if some wacker wants to try and portray them as something other than that, then either things have dramatically changed for the worse, or he is stretching the bounds of credibility.

muso wrote on Dec 8^th, 2009 at 2:44pm:

Yadda wrote on Dec 8th, 2009 at 1:53pm: ....but i realise, that my opinion is not respected. Yadda, the village loon.        :D Actually no - I thought it was rather nice to have some scripture quoted for a change  ::)

Har, har, har, ....it is to laugh.




There is nothing wrong with just a lil instruction from the Bible muso.      ;D

And even some of our most celebrated lyricist's have been inspired from its pages,

Ecclesiastes 3:1
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2  A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3  A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4  A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5  A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6  A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7  A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8  A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

I would agree with the strust of that report.

I would suggest that our current condition, the malaise of our 'Western' culture, worldwide, is the result of, our wholesale renunciation of those influences which laid down the 'foundations', and guided, our adopted cultural mores.

But in recent decades we [in the 'West'] have chosen to renounce the Judaeo-Christian influences which motivated, and ispired our forefathers.

Q.
Why have we chosen to do that?

e.g. abandoning our respect for such things as the Bible, which i would argue, played no small role, in inspiring our forefathers love of truth and justice.      see #1 below

I would argue, that the content of, and the principles, which the Bible contains was the 'ROCK' of our confidence, and our success [as individuals].

But no more.

Today, we have lost THAT inner confidence, which comes from respect for the TRUTH.



It seems arguable [to me at least!] that our former [and formerly held in high regard], Juedeo-Christian culture and its moral influences, which we looked to, for societal guidance, indeed served us well.

And that those inherent principles [of seeking truth and justice, and abhorring falsehood and cruelty] which foundation Judaeo-Christian culture so strongly embraces, helped to secure many of the public institutions which were subsequently established, institutions which we have come to recognise, as underpinning our societal stability.

But today, many of us have come to abhor [with a hatred!] those 'beginnings', which had such an influence upon our success as individuals, and as a culture.

Is this because we, today, have judged that those sound moral principles, that we learned / inherited from our forebears and which served them [and us!] well, are no longer needed, perhaps because those 'old fashioned' moral principles are now regarded as 'inconvenient', to us???



#1
While our culture in the past was never a perfect one, our forefathers at least aspired to the high ideals and principles, which are clearly enunciated within the Judaeo-Christian 'ethic'.

Yadda wrote on Dec 9^th, 2009 at 10:45am:

#1 While our culture in the past was never a perfect one, our forefathers at least aspired to the high ideals and principles, which are clearly enunciated within the Judaeo-Christian 'ethic'.

::)

And when Empress Maria Theresa proposed abolishing torture within her realm, as a means for extracting "truth" from victims, her biggest critics were the church fathers.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 9^th, 2009 at 12:08pm:

Yadda wrote on Dec 9th, 2009 at 10:45am: #1 While our culture in the past was never a perfect one, our forefathers at least aspired to the high ideals and principles, which are clearly enunciated within the Judaeo-Christian 'ethic'. ::) And when Empress Maria Theresa proposed abolishing torture within her realm, as a means for extracting "truth" from victims, her biggest critics were the church fathers.

Hmmm....

Yes helian, i read that verse too....
/sarc off

Irrelevant 12:15
And the church fathers will always oppose abolishing the torture of miscreants, coz the LORD enjoys to hear the screams of mortal man.

Yadda wrote on Dec 9^th, 2009 at 12:36pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 9th, 2009 at 12:08pm: Yadda wrote on Dec 9th, 2009 at 10:45am: #1 While our culture in the past was never a perfect one, our forefathers at least aspired to the high ideals and principles, which are clearly enunciated within the Judaeo-Christian 'ethic'. ::) And when Empress Maria Theresa proposed abolishing torture within her realm, as a means for extracting "truth" from victims, her biggest critics were the church fathers. Hmmm.... Yes helian, i read that verse too.... /sarc off Irrelevant 12:15 And the church fathers will always oppose abolishing of torture of miscreants, coz the LORD enjoy's to hear the screams of mortal man.

Then there's Martin Luther's sadistic tirades against Jews.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 9^th, 2009 at 12:37pm:

Then there's Martin Luther's sadistic tirades against Jews.

helian,

Yeah, ol' Martin L, he must of been really down on Jesus too then???





Matthew 27:24
When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
25  Then answered all the people [i.e. the Jews], and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.


Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16  For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17  For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18  Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19  For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20  Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21  Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22  And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Yadda wrote on Dec 9^th, 2009 at 12:52pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 9th, 2009 at 12:37pm: Then there's Martin Luther's sadistic tirades against Jews. helian, Yeah, ol' Martin L, he must of been really down on Jesus too then???

Then there's Pope Sixtus V and his murderous rampages against protestants.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 9^th, 2009 at 1:43pm:

Yadda wrote on Dec 9th, 2009 at 12:52pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 9th, 2009 at 12:37pm: Then there's Martin Luther's sadistic tirades against Jews. helian, Yeah, ol' Martin L, he must of been really down on Jesus too then??? Then there's Pope Sixtus V and his murderous rampages against protestants.

Yeah helian, those wicked Christian Popes, eh?


DEFINITIONS,

Wickedness

POPE[s]; When people will not obey them, and their authority.

God's; When people do cruel and wicked things to each other.



Not much has changed though has it helian?

People are still killing, and oppressing their brothers and sisters of this flesh.
....and calling it 'righteous', or 'justified'.

Men, are still doing what is right, in their own eyes.



"Right is only in question between equals, and while the strong do what they can, the weak suffer what they must."
Thucydides (460-400 B.C.) Greek Historian



When is the injustice going to end helian?

If there was no religion, would the injustice stop?       :D
....do ya think, duh?

So much for our forefathers aspiring to anything other than actualising their nature.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 9^th, 2009 at 1:59pm:

So much for our forefathers aspiring to anything other than actualising their nature.

Yadda said,


Quote:

#1 While our culture in the past was never a perfect one, our forefathers at least aspired to the high ideals and principles, which are clearly enunciated within the Judaeo-Christian 'ethic'.

"....which are clearly enunciated within the Judaeo-Christian 'ethic'."


Exodus 22:21
Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Exodus 23:9
Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Leviticus 19:33
And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34  But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Deuteronomy 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
18  He doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.
19  Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Matthew 22:36
Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38  This is the first and great commandment.
39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Psalms 34:14
Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.

Jeremiah 4:22
For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.



Jeremiah 9:23
Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
24  But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.





Yet it still seems difficult for many of us to comprehend, that in our existence here, on this little planet, we are all,
....'strangers in a strange land'.

And, i want to go home.

Yadda wrote on Dec 9^th, 2009 at 2:08pm:

"....which are clearly enunciated within the Judaeo-Christian 'ethic'."

As they are in every religious/ethics/morality system apropos to the culture it serves.

What's with all the Bible verses? This has nothing to do with religion. Set them down in Ibiza or Palma de Mallorca, and they're happy as Larry.

It's all about the weather !

Oh well.......

Matthew 5:45 - That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

If you can't beat them join them.

muso wrote on Dec 9^th, 2009 at 2:50pm:

What's with all the Bible verses? This has nothing to do with religion. Set them down in Ibiza or Palma de Mallorca, and they're happy as Larry. It's all about the weather ! Oh well....... Matthew 5:45 - That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. If you can't beat them join them.

LOL

Nice one muso.      ;D

muso wrote on Dec 9^th, 2009 at 2:50pm:

Oh well....... Matthew 5:45 - That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. If you can't beat them join them.

Yeah, but it ain't that hard to beat 'em... they're stoopid ;D

I'm not biting helian.        :P

Yadda, I am challenging you that instead of copy/pasting bible quotes, you write your own personal interpretation in at least one of every four occasions.

Do you think that you could do that?
God willing, you can do it, and the people will thank you for it.

Amadd wrote on Dec 10^th, 2009 at 6:09am:

Yadda, I am challenging you that instead of copy/pasting bible quotes, you write your own personal interpretation in at least one of every four occasions. Do you think that you could do that? God willing, you can do it, and the people will thank you for it.

Amadd,

sprint posted the account of that report, relating to Britons,

'Britons unhappy, lonely and unable to cope, study'

Here is my comment, on Britons, Americans, Australian's, or Western Europeans.

Its all connected.




my comment, here,

"Good luck Obama!!"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1259758426/1#1


But Amadd, i can guarantee, that you will not agree, or like, what i have said.
....because we may as well live on different planets, you and me.

amadd -
Quote:

Yadda, I am challenging you that instead of copy/pasting bible quotes, you write your own personal interpretation in at least one of every four occasions.

I support you on that challenge and even raise it !!!!!!!
Yadda, I am challenging you that instead of copy/pasting bible quotes, you write your own personal interpretation in at least three of every four occasions.

Our feelings are mutual amadd

Yadda wrote on Dec 10^th, 2009 at 8:18am:

But Amadd, i can guarantee, that you will not agree, or like, what i have said. ....because we may as well live on different planets, you and me.

It's no doubt true your not on this planet... But anyway, disagreement is usually healthy. What's not, is posting a page and a half of biblical quotes. Anything else you might have to say after that probably gets dismissed out of hand.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Dec 10^th, 2009 at 8:58am:

amadd - Quote: Yadda, I am challenging you that instead of copy/pasting bible quotes, you write your own personal interpretation in at least one of every four occasions. I support you on that challenge and even raise it !!!!!!! Yadda, I am challenging you that instead of copy/pasting bible quotes, you write your own personal interpretation in at least three of every four occasions. Our feelings are mutual amadd

And why sprint?

Is it because you cannot read, and because you cannot interpret for yourself, the meaning of a posted Bible verse(s), and cannot understand how the meaning of that verse applies to the topic at hand???

No it is not.

Many of the Bible verses i post, interpret themselves.

Their meaning, their 'thrust', is not 'hidden'.



But i believe that their meaning offends you, their meaning, which you fully comprehend, confronts you.

And you will not have your conscience 'challenged', or confronted.

Will you?

Q.
And why?

A.
Because nothing has changed.

Because we all still want to do what is right in our own eyes.


2 Timothy 3:4-5




Abel chose to please God.

Cain chose to please himself, and chose to murder his brother Abel.

Nothing has changed sprint.

Galatians 4:29
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.


Go your way sprint, walk the path which you have chosen, yourself.

Yadda, stop making assumptions about your readers. You know nothing of the people here. Don't presume we're all confronted by your biblical mania... We're not. We're all probably getting pissed off in the same way we get pissed off when we see graffiti on the exterior walls of buildings... Not a street prophet's truism, just the defecations of an arsehole with an air brush.

Quote:

But Amadd, i can guarantee, that you will not agree, or like, what i have said. ....because we may as well live on different planets, you and me.

Do ya think that might be possible one day Yadda?  ;)

It doesn't really matter if I agree or disagree with something you've written that are your own thougths. I still want to read it, even if, and sometimes especially if it's written in a moment of moodiness.
Probably nobody except the extreme religious would bother decifering a bunch of quotes that contain words such as: Haveth Bringeth Wanteth Doeth.
As has been mentioned already, it's all going to wash over without even being read.

The words from Pink Floyd's "Time" were very enjoyable to read, and so was Helian's quote: "So much for our forefathers aspiring to anything other than actualising their nature."

If the Brits are doing it hard atm, it's not hard to understand. They've been absolutely swamped by mid-east foreigners without even having a say in it. Nobody's words can save them now.

Amadd wrote on Dec 11^th, 2009 at 4:23pm:

Quote: But Amadd, i can guarantee, that you will not agree, or like, what i have said. ....because we may as well live on different planets, you and me. Do ya think that might be possible one day Yadda?  ;)

Sure.

In my reality, all things are possible.      ;)








Quote:

It doesn't really matter if I agree or disagree with something you've written that are your own thougths. I still want to read it, even if, and sometimes especially if it's written in a moment of moodiness. Probably nobody except the extreme religious would bother decifering a bunch of quotes that contain words such as: Haveth Bringeth Wanteth Doeth. As has been mentioned already, it's all going to wash over without even being read.

If its too much 'bother', or if it is incomprehensible, then don't read it.







Quote:

The words from Pink Floyd's "Time" were very enjoyable to read, and so was Helian's quote: "So much for our forefathers aspiring to anything other than actualising their nature." If the Brits are doing it hard atm, it's not hard to understand. They've been absolutely swamped by mid-east foreigners without even having a say in it. Nobody's words can save them now.

Like i said above,  ...In my reality, all things are possible.      ;)

Quote:

Like i said above,  ...In my reality, all things are possible

I too believe that all things are possible, but I think that the Brits now need action because words have fallen upon deaf ears.

I don't have the time to debate your other post atm where you seem to have the opinion that unless we adhere strictly to the words of the bible, we are "dead-men walking". In otherwords, there is no possibility for the human race without an adherence to religion. Your religion in particular.
YES WE CAN!!  :)
The fact remains that biblical times were no picnic as far as human empathy goes, and I'd hazard to guess that if nuclear weapons existed back then, we wouldn't be having this conversation now.

Amadd wrote on Dec 11^th, 2009 at 5:20pm:

Quote: Like i said above,  ...In my reality, all things are possible I too believe that all things are possible, but I think that the Brits now need action because words have fallen upon deaf ears. I don't have the time to debate your other post atm where you seem to have the opinion that #1, unless we adhere strictly to the words of the bible, #2, we are "dead-men walking". In otherwords, there is no possibility for the human race without an adherence to religion. Your religion in particular. YES WE CAN!!  :)

#1
I don't believe that i have ever implied that course of action.
I would rather argue that we would be wise to read, to study, the stories that the Bible contains.
And that thereby, we may improve ourselves, from taking heed, to what those stories repeated imply, about ourselves.

Essentially the Bible is a book of stories.

'Ripping yarns!', even.      ::)



#2
I don't believe that people should adhere to 'my religion'.
I believe that people should [be free to] live their own lives, and [be free to] make their own choices.
...with one proviso / condition.
The condition that they [people] be prepared to accept responsibility for the consequences of their choices, where their choices adversely affect the lives of others.
Is that unreasonable?

EXAMPLE #1...
If a person [#1] chooses to engage in a street fight [i.e. violence!], to so as to 'hurt', but with no intent to kill another person [person  #2], BUT, person [#2] dies because of the actions of person [#1].
Then that is murder - because of their reckless behaviour.
And person [#1] should suffer the punishment of a murderer.

EXAMPLE #2...
A person [#1] because he/she is intoxicated with alcohol or drugs causes the death of another person [#2], but had no intent to cause the death of another person.
Then that is murder - because of their reckless behaviour.
And person [#1] should suffer the punishment of a murderer.





Quote:

The fact remains that biblical times were no picnic as far as human empathy goes, and I'd hazard to guess that if nuclear weapons existed back then, we wouldn't be having this conversation now.

So from that, i can take it that, it is entirely possible, that we may not be able to continue this discussion next week?     :(
....coz we could all well be atomic cinders?


Seriously, i don't believe that the nature of man has changed, in thousands of years.

We are still subject to, and driven by, the same passions, that men in a biblical age were.


THE PART THAT OUR PLEASURE PLAYS...
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225668669/0#0

We [mankind today] are still basically, aggressive, selfish, greedy, vain, proud, violent, DUMB, creatures.

The only difference is that back then [biblical times], we didn't have Ipod's and Playstations, and atomic bombs.



Amadd,

Some dumb, incomprehensible, words [whence, hence, ye, lusteth, etc] from the Bible seem appropriate about now,

James 4:1
From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
2  Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
3  Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
4  Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
5  Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

Yadda wrote on Dec 12^th, 2009 at 12:36pm:

#1 I don't believe that i have ever implied that course of action. I would rather argue that we would be wise to read, to study, the stories that the Bible contains. And that thereby, we may improve ourselves, from taking heed, to what those stories repeated imply, about ourselves. Essentially the Bible is a book of stories. 'Ripping yarns!', even.      ::)

Equally true of non-religious literature. Shakespearean and Dickensian expressed truths are equally as poignant as biblical ones... Maybe even more so as none of their characters are gods (or demi-godlike such as prophets). Their truths expressed during the course of fictional events makes their humanity obvious and therefore possible for the reader to actually identify with them. But that's not to say that there are none in religious texts, just that the deeds of religious characters are embellished with the highly uncommon, unidentifiable and non-credible intervention of deities.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 12^th, 2009 at 12:56pm:

Yadda wrote on Dec 12th, 2009 at 12:36pm: #1 I don't believe that i have ever implied that course of action. I would rather argue that we would be wise to read, to study, the stories that the Bible contains. And that thereby, we may improve ourselves, from taking heed, to what those stories repeated imply, about ourselves. Essentially the Bible is a book of stories. 'Ripping yarns!', even.      ::) Equally true of non-religious literature. Shakespearean and Dickensian expressed truths are equally as poignant as biblical ones... Maybe even more so as none of their characters are gods (or demi-godlike such as prophets). Their truths expressed during the course of fictional events makes their humanity obvious and therefore possible for the reader to actually identify with them. But that's not to say that there are none in religious texts, just that the deeds of religious characters are embellished with the highly uncommon, unidentifiable and non-credible intervention of deities.

helian,

There was a 'ghost' in Macbeth, yes???       :P



Google,
supernatural in Shakespeare
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=supernatural+in+Shakespeare&btnG=Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=


And no supernatural themes in any of Dickens stories?

LOL



Hey, helian!!

Here is a very good quote from Shakespeare,      ;)    ;)    ;)


"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."


;)

Yadda wrote on Dec 12^th, 2009 at 1:10pm:

helian, There was a 'ghost' in Macbeth, yes???       :P Google, supernatural in Shakespeare http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=supernatural+in+Shakespeare&btnG=Search&meta=&aq=f&oq= And no supernatural themes in any of Dickens stories? LOL Hey, helian!! Here is a very good quote from Shakespeare,      ;)    ;)    ;) "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." ;)

And every one is a fictional story. For those few examples where we do not or cannot identify with the characters, we know we are not expected to accept the literal truth of the tale, unlike Biblical stories.

"The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars but in ourselves..."

Ah.

Bible, Shakespeare, Dickens, all works of fiction.

I get it.




2 Timothy 4:4

Yadda wrote on Dec 12^th, 2009 at 2:58pm:

Ah. Bible, Shakespeare, Dickens, all works of fiction. I get it. 2 Timothy 4:4

2 Timothy 4:4 ? That's your evidence that Biblical stories are true? Even prominent Israeli archaeologists accept that Biblical stories (including Exodus) are fiction... And historically, Jews understood this. Apparently It's a relatively recent phenomenon for Jews to consider Biblical stories to be literal truth.

Just how many litres of snake oil have you bought from snake-oil salesman over the years? Cos I've got some genuine 100% pure gold bars I can sell you for the bargain basement price of $500 each. PM me and I'll forward deposit details to you ;D

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 12^th, 2009 at 3:35pm:

Yadda wrote on Dec 12th, 2009 at 2:58pm: Ah. Bible, Shakespeare, Dickens, all works of fiction. I get it. 2 Timothy 4:4 2 Timothy 4:4 ? That's your evidence that Biblical stories are true? Even prominent Israeli archaeologists accept that Biblical stories (including Exodus) are fiction...

Oooowaaar.

I'm in a lot of trouble then helian.          :P




And, 2 Timothy 4:4  is not my evidence that Biblical stories are true.

As you very well know, i have no 'evidence' to prove the veracity of Biblical stories.

Having lived only tens of years, as part of this lifetime, only a fool would declare, with no more evidence than an ancient written record, that they were certain that supposed events transpired, millennia ago.

But i am such a fool.

And another kind of fool would assert that they, were certain, that such events could not have, or did not, transpire.       :P

We have only today helian, and our experience.








Quote:

And historically, Jews understood this. Apparently It's a relatively recent phenomenon for Jews to consider Biblical stories to be literal truth. Just how many litres of snake oil have you bought from snake-oil salesman over the years? Cos I've got some genuine 100% pure gold bars I can sell you for the bargain basement price of $500 each. PM me and I'll forward deposit details to you ;D

I'd want a 100%, money back guarantee though.         ;)

Yadda wrote on Dec 12^th, 2009 at 4:11pm:

But i am such a fool. And another kind of fool would assert that they, were certain, that such events could not have, or did not, transpire.       :P We have only today helian, and our experience.

And facts... and evidence, there Yadda... or in this case, the yawning lack thereof.


Yadda wrote on Dec 12^th, 2009 at 4:11pm:

Quote: Just how many litres of snake oil have you bought from snake-oil salesman over the years? Cos I've got some genuine 100% pure gold bars I can sell you for the bargain basement price of $500 each. PM me and I'll forward deposit details to you ;D I'd want a 100%, money back guarantee though.         ;)

Oh Sure... I'll give you a money back guarantee...  Now, just if you'd put deposit the money in the account and wait 2 weeks for delivery :D

Quote:

Seriously, i don't believe that the nature of man has changed, in thousands of years.

I must agree that if there have been changes in human nature, then they have been miniscule.
Therineth, there hath been noeth changeth to human natureth due to the bibleth.

Maybe indeed it would've been more productive to have had a few nukes let off in biblical times to fast-track an education.
The "do as I say, and not as I do" mentality has never worked very well.
Even if somebody can vividly imagine the fictional (perfect being) Christ character, they are more proned to take on the attributes of the real people around them.
Yes I think that stories that are displayed as being fictional and only to focus upon the realities within can have more of an impact than stories that leave you wondering if the author is being less than honest.
Biblical stories sure do have some meaning to them, but it's doubtful that they are a true representation of history.i

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 12^th, 2009 at 6:08pm:

Quote: We have only today helian, and our experience. And facts... and evidence, there Yadda... or in this case, the yawning lack thereof.

helian,

Your position, or rather the 'philosophical' position of 'humanists', is that we humans have built up a huge source of knowledge, knowledge about ourselves, and knowledge about the 'universe' we inhabit.

And, that we have come such a long way!



My position is that we, really, really, know so little, still, about ourselves and our 'environment'.

e.g.
What do we really know, about time, relativity, quantum mechanics?

All of our [collective] knowledge is based on our [individual] experience.

Don't you see, can't you acknowledge, that all of our [individual] experience is incredibly limited?

Yet humanists [and 'scientists'] are so, so, certain, that reality is confined within what they can see, and touch, and measure.

LOL, LOL, LOL.



Yadda says, How arrogant is a position, a perception of reality, such as that!       ;D





+++++++




Time for more thou, and thy, and thee,         ;D

Ecclesiastes 1:2
Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.

Romans 1:25
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Isaiah 57:15
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
16  For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
17  For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.
18  I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.
19  I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.
20  But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.
21  There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked.

Amadd wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 4:28am:

Quote: Seriously, i don't believe that the nature of man has changed, in thousands of years. I must agree that if there have been changes in human nature, then they have been miniscule. Therineth, there hath been noeth changeth to human natureth due to the bibleth.

The Bibleth affect differenteth people in differenteth ways.

Some hateth it.

Some loveth it.

And some, even openeth its pages and readeth it!         :P








Quote:

Maybe indeed it would've been more productive to have had a few nukes let off in biblical times to fast-track an education. The "do as I say, and not as I do" mentality has never worked very well. Even if somebody can vividly imagine the fictional (perfect being) Christ character, they are more proned to take on the attributes of the real people around them. Yes I think that stories that are displayed as being fictional and only to focus upon the realities within can have more of an impact than stories that leave you wondering if the author is being less than honest. Biblical stories sure do have some meaning to them, but it's doubtful that they are a true representation of history.

We all choose for ourselves, from our life experiences, what to believe.

I don't see anything wrong with that outcome.

It sounds very logical to me,  ....that we should be 'formed' by our experiences.

Yadda wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 10:48am:

We all choose for ourselves, from our life experiences, what to believe. I don't see anything wrong with that outcome. It sounds very logical to me,  ....that we should be 'formed' by our experiences.

Hardly honest Yadda. You're implying you'd choose to believe something whether or not your better judgement determined it was a lie... Never mind that often truth is counter-intuitive.

Do you believe that the earth is flat because it appears that way?

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 11:17am:

Yadda wrote on Dec 13th, 2009 at 10:48am: We all choose for ourselves, from our life experiences, what to believe. I don't see anything wrong with that outcome. It sounds very logical to me,  ....that we should be 'formed' by our experiences. Hardly honest Yadda. You're implying you'd choose to believe something whether or not your better judgement determined it was a lie... Never mind that often truth is counter-intuitive. Do you believe that the earth is flat because it appears that way?

LOL.

Surely helian, you are proving my argument, for me?

Q.
Was it irrational, for men to believe, years ago, that the earth was flat?

When their [at that time] limited and [individual] 'experience' of the earth, logically seemed to imply, that the earth was flat???

A.
No.

We must accept as true, what our senses tell us.

That is only logical.

But, to then, say that we will only accept as true, what our senses [seem to] tell us?????

Is that entirely logical?

e.g.
I cannot see, or feel, radio waves.

Should i therefore, disbelieve in their existence???






++++++++








Isaiah 40:22
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers;.....

Job 26:7
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.



http://www.seoco.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/ii_earth_in_space.gif

Yadda wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 11:51am:

LOL. Surely helian, you are proving my argument, for me? Q. Was it irrational, for men to believe, years ago, that the earth was flat? When their [at that time] limited and [individual] 'experience' of the earth, logically seemed to imply, that the earth was flat??? A. No. We must accept as true, what our senses tell us. That is only logical. But, to then, say that we will only accept as true, what our senses [seem to] tell us????? Is that entirely logical? e.g. I cannot see, or feel, radio waves. Should i therefore, disbelieve in their existence???

No, you have missed the point entirely.

Why do you choose to believe radio waves exist? Evidence?

If you choose to believe in the existence of god's will, then you are choosing to believe in the irrational because it gives you comfort... The alternative would cause you existential angst so you choose to disregard the likelihood of a godless universe.

In other words its fear that drives your choice not logic.

Is it honest to believe something to be true because the alternative frightens you?

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 12:56pm:

.....you have missed the point entirely. Why do you choose to believe radio waves exist? Evidence?

I base my belief in the existence of radio waves, on their existence being explained to my comprehension using objective truth.

I am a rationalist.

I am happy to acknowledge truth, where truth is apparent to me.







Quote:

If you choose to believe in the existence of god's will, then you are choosing to believe in the irrational because it gives you comfort... The alternative would cause you existential angst so you choose to disregard the likelihood of a godless universe. In other words its fear that drives your choice not logic. Is it honest to believe something to be true because the alternative frightens you?

helian,

What you are stating [as fact!], is that YOUR reality, is 'clearly' the only valid understanding of reality.   see below, ##1

And in asserting such a reality, you are demonstrating, and proving that your belief is FUNDAMENTALIST in character.    ;D

Whereas, i clearly live in a larger 'world' than yourself.     :P


Dictionary,
fundamentalism = =
1 a form of Protestant Christianity which upholds belief in the strict and literal interpretation of the Bible.
2 the strict maintenance of the ancient or fundamental doctrines of any religion or ideology.



##1
i.e.
If others reject your comprehension of 'reality', you believe that its probably because those 'others' are mistaken, or rejecting a truth that has been 'revealed' to you.

But helian, weren't you ever a child???

And didn't your comprehension of reality, then, reflect your limited childhood outlook and comprehension???

AND, what makes you think that you are an adult, already!!      ;)


helian,

FACT, we are NOT adults.

We only 'believe' that we are.

The truth is, we are all, still just children.

And we still, have much to learn!

The reason you believe radio waves exist is not the same standard of reasoning that you apply to belief in god.

I'd suggest that if your fear of a godless universe abated, so would your absolute need to believe that god exists.

It would be much harder to deny the existence of radio waves regardless of how you felt about them.

Adults / children... Avoid rhetorical sophistry, Yadda.

Adults are not children. And being an adult does not imply an inability to learn or no need to learn.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 1:48pm:

The reason you believe radio waves exist is not the same standard of reasoning that you apply to belief in god.

Oh, yes it is!

But it is a truth that i can't produce my evidence, to this world.





Quote:

I'd suggest that if your fear of a godless universe abated, so would your absolute need to believe that god exists.

My belief in God's existence is not based on fear, of what is not there.

My belief in God's existence is based on experience.







Quote:

It would be much harder to deny the existence of radio waves regardless of how you felt about them. Adults / children... Avoid rhetorical sophistry, Yadda. Adults are not children. And being an adult does not imply an inability to learn or no need to learn.

Well, that is your perception.

But it is not mine.




'.....being an adult does not imply an inability to learn....'


And human history bears out that 'truth' !

Doesn't it!!
/sarc off         ;D     ;D     ;D


Google,
none so blind as those
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=none+so+blind+as+those&btnG=Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=

;D

Yadda wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 2:04pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 13th, 2009 at 1:48pm: The reason you believe radio waves exist is not the same standard of reasoning that you apply to belief in god. Oh, yes it is! But it is a truth that i can't produce my evidence, to this world. Quote: I'd suggest that if your fear of a godless universe abated, so would your absolute need to believe that god exists. My belief in God's existence is not based on fear, of what is not there. My belief in God's existence is based on experience.

Yadda said elsewhere,


Quote:

Hi Amadd, Atheists are realists..... .....whereas, religious people are people who believe in faerie tales? ........ ........ But additionally, let me ask you this Q. Does the experience of a[nother] person become [in fact] invalid, because YOU have not shared such an experience? What is YOUR answer to that question?

All Aboard the Athiest bus ..
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225016818/10#10

Yadda wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 2:04pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 13th, 2009 at 1:48pm: The reason you believe radio waves exist is not the same standard of reasoning that you apply to belief in god. Oh, yes it is! But it is a truth that i can't produce my evidence, to this world.

Then its not the same standard.


Yadda wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 2:04pm:

Quote: '.....being an adult does not imply an inability to learn....' And human history bears out that 'truth' ! Doesn't it!!

Yes, of course it does. Are you saying it's not in your experience to meet adults who can learn? Gee you're even more isolated than I thought. Do you ever leave the house? Does the phone ever ring?

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 2:42pm:

Yadda wrote on Dec 13th, 2009 at 2:04pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 13th, 2009 at 1:48pm: The reason you believe radio waves exist is not the same standard of reasoning that you apply to belief in god. Oh, yes it is! But it is a truth that i can't produce my evidence, to this world. Then its not the same standard.

In your head, no.

In my head, it is, for me.



But what you, and other atheists are saying is,

"I can't believe your experience, because >> i << have not experienced it."

Fair enough.



Sorta like Columbus returning to Spain from the Americas, and i'm sure that many people refused to believe, that he found a 'new world'.

Its the same concept.

'That is an absurd concept. And i didn't experience it. Therefore, it isn't, it can't, be real.'i



Quote:

Yadda wrote on Dec 13th, 2009 at 2:04pm: [quote]'.....being an adult does not imply an inability to learn....' And human history bears out that 'truth' ! Doesn't it!!

Yes, of course it does. Are you saying it's not in your experience to meet adults who can learn? Gee you're even more isolated than I thought. Do you ever leave the house? Does the phone ever ring?

[/quote]


Yadda, the lonely, sad, hermit?        :'(




helian,

Get a clue,

Read the topic title again!!!!!

LOL


And,   .....does poor Yadda seem sad, lonely, and unable to cope???              ;D





+++++++





Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.


Philippians 4:7
And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Yadda wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 3:03pm:

Then its not the same standard. Sorta like Columbus returning to Spain from the Americas, and i'm sure that many people refused to believe, that he found a 'new world'. Its the same concept. 'That is an absurd concept. And i didn't experience it. Therefore, it isn't, it can't, be real.'

Bad analogy. Columbus returned with evidence of his expedition, a crew who could corroborate his story in every detail and charts to demonstrate how to get back there.


Yadda wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 2:04pm:

Yadda, the lonely, sad, hermit?        :'(

The isolation might be playing with your mind...


Yadda wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 2:04pm:

And,   .....does poor Yadda seem sad, lonely, and unable to cope???

Pretty much. ;D

NorthOfNorth wrote on Dec 13^th, 2009 at 3:15pm:

Bad analogy. Columbus returned with evidence of his expedition, a crew who could corroborate his story in every detail and charts to demonstrate how to get back there.

Columbus return from Americas, bad analogy?

Really?


helian people HATE truth.

Do you know why people HATE truth?

My guess is that, that TRUTH challenges our world [i.e. our assumption's about the nature of truth].

And that can be 'uncomfortable' for many.

And we don't like discomfort, do we???




Here are a few more examples of truth being rejected,

Many people still believe that the NASA moon landings didn't take place?
They believe that those NASA 'moon landings' were a conspiracy of lies, and were filmed on a Hollywood set.
/sarc off

Bizarre?

And lets talk about 19 Saudis, and 9/11.
Don't ya know helian, that 9/11 was all a Mossad conducted conspiracy - against moslems.
That, is what a majority of moslems believe!
We all know that all of the Jews who worked in the WTC, stayed home that day.
/sarc off

Bizarre?

And MI5 was behind the London bombings of 7/7
Which was another conspiracy against moslems.
A non-moslem plot, that would create a backlash against the moslem community.
That, is what a majority of moslems believe!
/sarc off

Bizarre?

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41725000/jpg/_41725714_bus_getty.jpg
London bombings - 7/7

Google
London bombings - 7/7 conspiracy
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=London+bombings+-+7%2F7+conspiracy&btnG=Google+Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=




helian,

Supposedly intelligent people, living today, with our present communications technology, can't [are unable to] believe or discern the TRUTH, of what occurs in front of their own eyes!
....let alone events which have happened 'historically', within the last ten years!

How could people in Europe in the 1490's, where communication was largely by word of mouth, be expected to believe that a Spaniard had sailed his ship passed the horizon!!, YET, he had not fallen off the edge of the world!!!

Absurd!!

After all, we all know [in 1490 AD] that the earth is flat.



Google,
none so blind as those
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=none+so+blind+as+those&btnG=Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=








Quote:

Yadda wrote on Dec 13th, 2009 at 2:04pm: Yadda, the lonely, sad, hermit?        :'( The isolation might be playing with your mind... Yadda wrote on Dec 13th, 2009 at 2:04pm: And,   .....does poor Yadda seem sad, lonely, and unable to cope??? Pretty much. ;D

I'm sorry to disappoint you.

I am not a despondent, sad person.

The spirit that fills me,   .....fills me with joy, and hope, and peace.






TRUTH

People in 'authority' over us, would love us to believe that this is how we should deal with 'our demons',

Google,
beyond blue
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=beyond+blue&btnG=Google+Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=


The TRUTH is, these are real demons, which torment us!

The TRUTH is, demons fear the spirit of God!





Yadda, the happy.          :)

Yadda, the content.          :)

Quote:

Columbus return from Americas, bad analogy? Really? helian people HATE truth. Do you know why people HATE truth? My guess is that, that TRUTH challenges our world [i.e. our assumption's about the nature of truth]. And that can be 'uncomfortable' for many. And we don't like discomfort, do we???

It sounds to me Yadda like you are one of those people who hate truth.
How on God's own earth could you possibly defend your non-sequitor analogy?
No we don't like discomforts such as Darwin's theory of evolution do we?

And was that wrong of me (as an athiest) to use the word "God"?
Because as we all know, you have a copywrited ownership of divine instruction. Unfortunately, it's just ego driven....BS

You wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on the ass.

Amadd wrote on Dec 19^th, 2009 at 4:53am:

You wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on the ass.

Ouch!!!

Just kidding.

I didn't feel a thing!

Honest.        ;)





Amadd,

The err, truth is, that people like yourself [Humanists, Atheists] have adopted a position, where they don't believe in anything, of consequence, imo.

Or more correctly, i should phrase that as, You can't bring yourself to believe in anything.



exploring this idea a little further,


Quote:

A very poignant question is asked by Pilate: "What is truth?".....Let us take a practical look at this subject in light of a new religious paradigm – Post Modernism. We begin with a definition: Post-Modernism is a statement that truth is relevant. If I believe something, then my belief is true for me, but this truth need not be truth for someone else. Your belief, whatever it happens to be, is just as good as mine. It is an encouragement to believe anything you want to believe, and to accept other beliefs as valid – as valid as your own. We may informally call this, "toleration." In essence, it is a statement that truth is defined and created by the people who believe it. In defining spiritual truth, I myself would assume that the spiritual world exists, that it is real, and that it has specific properties and characteristics, just like the physical world in which I live. I would infer from this assumption that when two people experience a legitimate disagreement on some matter of spiritual truth (as opposed to semantic misunderstandings or poor/incomplete communication), at least one of them is wrong/inaccurate/incorrect. ..... Academically, one must consider the possibility that the Post-Modernist is correct. However, this becomes somewhat circular. If the Post-Modernist is correct, then even those who reject Post-Modernism, as I would, are "correct," for my belief is just as valid as any other. This implies that the concept of "correct" is meaningless. I am contradicting Post-Modernism, which says I am "correct" in contradicting it. If I am correct in saying that something is incorrect when it is actually correct, then this word "correct" is void of meaning. We could say the same thing about the word "truth," about "reality," and any other word we would like to contemplate. The approach can be applied to anything, any concept at all. To say that two people with conflicting beliefs about the spiritual realm, or anything at all, are both entirely correct and completely valid in their beliefs is inconsistent with any sort of logic or reason. To claim that two conflicting beliefs are valid is to strip the word "valid" of its meaning. To say that two opposing ideologies are entirely true is to reject the concept of truth. Surprisingly, Post-Modernism makes the statement that words have no meaning… that there is no reality. Post-Modernism cannot actually be contradicted, because it invalidates the concept of contradiction, reason, logic, and meaningful communication of any form. Post-Modernism cannot even make a valid statement; in Post-Modernism, statements with meaning cannot be made! Post-Modernism is, essentially, a denial of reality. It even denies itself ! How nice!

http://www.ableever.net/Apologetics/What_Is_Truth_/what_is_truth_.html



I had a good chuckle over what this guy was saying.

I think that he coulda titled it, 'Making sense, of the irrational.'           ;D



Basically, Humanists, and Atheists define 'truth' according to their very own perceptions of reality.

That is fine.

Its no different from how some scientists have chosen to define [bend!] the 'scientific process' which they undertake.

A process dependent on, and 'guided', by who is funding their scientific enterprise, and by what amount.
e.g. some unscrupulous scientists will chose to apply the 'scientific process' only to evidence which supports their funded hypothesis, while choosing to dismiss other evidence as 'inconsequential'.

The field of politics is no different.

Money 'talks'.

And truths which are 'inconvenient' are discarded, or dismissed.

Mankind has always done this.

I think it is often referred to as 'expediency' to purpose.


Dictionary,
expedient = =
1 convenient and practical although possibly improper or immoral.
2 suitable or appropriate.
· n. a means of attaining an end, especially one that is convenient but possibly improper.

Quote:

Amadd, The err, truth is, that people like yourself [Humanists, Atheists] have adopted a position, where they don't believe in anything, of consequence, imo. Or more correctly, i should phrase that as, You can't bring yourself to believe in anything.

Oh Yadda puhleeaase!

Of course I believe in something. I believe that truth brings us closer to God and untruths distance that connection.
I believe that what you are believing is in essence a load of ancient hogwash and that you are trying to justify your own self-lies with the backing of more lies.

Tell me that you believe in the value of learning about ourselves. Tell me that you believe that we are all in fact animals and have evolved from apes.
Is the human form really that special? Is it "God's" will that we should stagnate upon a 2000yr old text?

I hope you have enormous faith in that text Yadda, because it was merely the politics of the time.

Amadd wrote on Dec 20^th, 2009 at 12:16am:

Of course I believe in something. I believe that truth brings us closer to God and untruths distance that connection. I believe that what you are believing is in essence a load of ancient hogwash...

You are not unusual.

I would even go so far, as to say that your opinion in this, is normal Amadd.

Me?   ....I'm definitely not 'normal'.       ;)






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....and that you are trying to justify your own self-lies with the backing of more lies. Tell me that you believe in the value of learning about ourselves.

Absolutely.





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Tell me that you believe that we are all in fact animals and have evolved from apes.

Absurd.





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Is the human form really that special? Is it "God's" will that we should stagnate upon a 2000yr old text? I hope you have enormous faith in that text Yadda, because it was merely the politics of the time.

Do you really, really, believe that humans are merely animals, knowing our capacity for art and science, and our unusual ability to apply what was once arcane knowledge, to the physical world ???

We are very special, we are very, very, gifted creatures.

We, mankind, are not mere animals - though many of us seek to justify our baser instincts and actions, by claiming that that is all that we are.



If we evolved from apes, who did apes evolve from???
....i.e. why are apes still with us?

Scientists have identified fossil ants and other insects, supposedly '200 million' years old - yet, those fossils are exact replicas of creatures living today.

Why didn't these common creatures evolve, OR, become 'surplus to requirements' by mother nature and go extinct???

The shark and the crocodile, are supposedly also hundreds of millions of years old.

Were their particular evolutionary lines [of sharks and crocodiles] impeded, halted?

How?

Why?



Evolution is a crock.

Scientific dating of the 'geologic layers' of the Earth is a crock.

Its based upon bad [falsified] science.



The petrification [fossilisation] of living organisms has been proved, to take place in tens of years - not millions of years, as is commonly taught, a teaching which directly supports the 'veracity' of the theory of evolution.

While the fact that the petrification of living organisms can take place in tens of years is never mentioned.

Why not???






Amadd,

You said,

Tell me that you believe in the value of learning about ourselves.


Do you???

I have faith Yadda.

I have faith that evolution will dictate that the factual persons will progress beyond the religious.

This is God's will. It will happen, and it's happening now.

There is no second coming of Christ, there wasn't even a first. He never existed in the first place. Jesus Christ was a politically concocted fairy tale, and you will find no evidence to prove that statement otherwise.

Forget it Yadda. You cannot provide any evidence to the contrary, so don't even bother trying.

Yes humans are the most able to control their surroundings with respect to other lifeforms on this planet, but this does not mean that we are very good at changing things for the better. It just means that we can change things.
The bible really provides no insight to our present day problems. If it was written by "God" then there would be some understanding of what we face today.
But it was written by humans, less advanced morally, scientifically, philisophically and politically than the information that we have access to today.
We still have a lot of evolving to do Yadda, don't be the religious chock in the wheels by denying truth.
There is no doubt about evolution. You should accept your humaness.

Amadd wrote on Dec 20^th, 2009 at 2:40am:

I have faith Yadda. I have faith that evolution will dictate that the factual persons will progress beyond the religious. This is God's will. It will happen, and it's happening now. There is no second coming of Christ, there wasn't even a first. He never existed in the first place. Jesus Christ was a politically concocted fairy tale, and you will find no evidence to prove that statement otherwise.

You seem very adamant about that.           ;)

And you probably have the numbers on your side, so you must be correct.            ;)






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Forget it Yadda. You cannot provide any evidence to the contrary, so don't even bother trying. Yes humans are the most able to control their surroundings with respect to other lifeforms on this planet, but this does not mean that we are very good at changing things for the better. It just means that we can change things. The bible really provides no insight to our present day problems. If it was written by "God" then there would be some understanding of what we face today. But it was written by humans, less advanced morally, scientifically, philisophically and politically than the information that we have access to today. We still have a lot of evolving to do Yadda, don't be the religious chock in the wheels by denying truth. There is no doubt about evolution. You should accept your humaness.

No, i won't.              ;)

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You seem very adamant about that.           And you probably have the numbers on your side, so you must be correct.

That's just the facts dude.  I'm very happy to look at factual information to the contrary.



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No, i won't.

Then you must be far above all of us mere mortals without even having to put in any work for it. Wow! that sounds like a pretty schmoozy gig. I really gotta get me one of those bible thingos.

Yadda wrote on Dec 19^th, 2009 at 11:31pm:

Basically, Humanists, and Atheists define 'truth' according to their very own perceptions of reality.

I thought everybody defined truth according to their own perceptions of reality. Truth and reality are essentially the same thing (are they not?) and perception is all we have to base it on. (cogito ergo sum)

Self-identifying atheists may choose to quote Descartes on this, Abu may prefer Ibn Tufal, and you'd prefer Thomas Aquinas no doubt. Of course all three shared such empiricist views, albeit within different contexts.

Christians define truth according to their own perceptions of reality too. They just happen to agree with other Christian about some, but obviously not all aspects) of their perception. Many perceive God as being real for example, while others perceive God thrugh faith (which I understand as a kind of extended perception.)  

Here are some kindred souls for you. They worship reality and they have a church. (They must be Americans LOL)

http://www.churchofreality.org/wisdom/welcome_home/

I find it quite amusing why anybody would bother with such a thing  ;D

Pardon me for butting into your nice argument by the way. Please continue. It is very entertaining.

My contribution as always : de gustibus non est disputandum

(rough translation - whatever floats your boat/ whatever cranks your dial)

In all discussions of reality, we need to consider this equation (and every time you post a scriptural citation, I'm going to post an equation)

ΔxΔp >= h'/2

Ever since Shrõdinger, we've had to wave goodbye to reality as we know it, and Heisenberg wasn't too certain either  ;D

muso wrote on Dec 20^th, 2009 at 8:34am:

Yadda wrote on Dec 19th, 2009 at 11:31pm: Basically, Humanists, and Atheists define 'truth' according to their very own perceptions of reality. I thought everybody defined truth according to their own perceptions of reality. Truth and reality are essentially the same thing (are they not?) and perception is all we have to base it on. (cogito ergo sum)

muso,

You are correct of course.

After making my post and reading it, i mentally noted the point you bring above [about the gaff in my logic], but thought i would let it stand as i had posted it.

You are right, truth, reality, is defined for each of us, according to our own perceptions, in our life experience.




I think that what i was trying to express [and failed miserably in doing so!], was this,

'Basically, Humanists, and Atheists define 'truth' according to their very own perceptions of reality, disallowing any possibility of any other reality, which they, themselves, do not perceive.'

What i was trying to express was that Humanists, and Atheists hold a sort of rigid intellectual intolerance - being unwilling to accept the reality of anything which they cannot see, or touch, or quantify.

And i can imagine that you would immediately argue that such a position which upholds [tests] logic, and objective truth is to be embraced.

But aren't there also many truths, which we accept today, which mankind were unaware of, or the suggestion of, would have seemed absurd, a millennia or two ago?

e.g. think of the technological advances, which today, we take for granted, which would have been incomprehensible to mankind just two millennia ago.

manned flight [using machines], the discovery of, and application of radio waves, electricity, etc, etc.






It is a small mind that cannot imagine what may be, beyond the horizon.

Yadda wrote on Dec 21^st, 2009 at 1:14pm:

'Basically, Humanists, and Atheists define 'truth' according to their very own perceptions of reality, disallowing any possibility of any other reality, which they, themselves, do not perceive.'

Well I obviously do not fit into your definition of an Atheist or a Humanist, because I take the view that nobody can view the entire universe from their own personal viewpoint, no matter how lofty it may be. Even if you're standing on the Eigar, you can't see what's behind the surrounding mountains. You have to rely on others to tell you.

I take the view that if I should close my mind to the views of others, I risk losing sight of the incredible things they can see but I don't. I actually find religions very interesting, especially when the proponents have a suitable degree of humilitas themselves. I think I might have said that before.

Your above comment would seem to me to be more appropriate for fundamentalists.

So to reassemble your phrase:

Basically, fundamentalist Muslims, Christians and Atheists define 'truth' according to their very own perceptions of reality, disallowing any possibility of any other reality, which they, themselves, do not perceive.

I'd argue that very few atheists and humanists are as rigidly scientific as you seem to imply. Most simply have never found anything that they consider to be evidence of a god or gods, and just don't worry themselves too much about what others believe. However, a  small minority get quite feral about it. Do you know who the "trouble makers" among the atheists are in my experience? They are ex-mormons or ex-fundamentalists. I could never understand why they bother. It's as if they can't seem to leave the zealotry behind.

As a scientist, I apply fairly rigid scientific principles to matters of science only. Spirituality is a much more malleable thing, as illogical as the human brain is, and rightly so.

Most of the rest of the post could have been written by me.

muso,

Thanks for your considered reply.




We seem to be creatures with an insatiable appetite for knowledge, especially new knowledge.

Yet, much as it was for mankind two millennia ago, or as it was for mankind even just two hundred years ago, there is still much beyond our ken [beyond our comprehension].


It is absurd [and imo, profoundly arrogant] for mankind, or science, or individuals, to imagine that there very little left for us to learn, about ourselves, or about our environment [reality].

In fact, i would argue that ironically, the opposite seems to true about our 'coming to knowledge',

someone else said it,

'The more we [mankind] learn, the more we come to realise how little we really know.'



And how true is that!!!     ;D

Reminds me of this quote by Albert Einstein:


Quote:

One thing I have learned in a long life: That all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike—and yet, it is the most precious thing we have.

— Albert Einstein

muso wrote on Dec 20^th, 2009 at 8:34am:

In all discussions of reality, we need to consider this equation (and every time you post a scriptural citation, I'm going to post an equation) ΔxΔp >= h'/2

And here is me, thinking that i had been fairly restrained in this thread.

Not a verse in sight, from post #60 onward.        ;D





p.s.
regards the equation, above, 'Its all Chinese to me!'         ;)
....so i guess your are indeed, getting your own back on me.